Article

2004-03-14 Europe

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Posted by Steve White 2004-03-14 1:28:24 PM|| || Front Page|| [11128 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Hmmm, I tried to post this and got an error screen... Fred are you working on the guest article posting thing?

Anyway, I'm disgusted with them. Europe is finished.

Posted by Damn_Proud_American 2004-3-14 3:59:01 PM|| [http://brighterfuture.blogspot.com] 2004-3-14 3:59:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Very hard to parse all the factors that lead to actual voting patterns, of course (even with exit polling), but externally this is potentially a big blow, as it will be interpreted widely as a surrender to terror. In terms of policy, however, is it really possible to imagine that a new administration will, in the wake of the country's worst terror attack, step back from an aggressive anti-terror strategy? Seems the catastrophe that helped bring them to power would ensnare them in the necessity of fighting back.

Posted by IceCold 2004-3-14 4:05:05 PM|| 2004-3-14 4:05:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 It is very easy to imagine a new administration pulling all troops from Iraq and Afghanistan and refusing to give the Navy basing rights it is looking for at Rota.

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-3-14 4:07:21 PM|| 2004-3-14 4:07:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Europe is done.

Posted by Laurence of the Rats 2004-3-14 4:24:11 PM|| 2004-3-14 4:24:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 If the Socialists win, and if the al-Qaeda factor was a factor, then a large segment of the Spanish population just took cover behind the future sacrifices of others.

"It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace--but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
--Patrick Henry March 23,1775

Thanks to the people of Spain for their contributions to the WoT to date. But you may have just ensured a future you don't really want...

Posted by Hyper 2004-3-14 4:24:37 PM|| 2004-3-14 4:24:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 According to these numbers, neither party has a majority. Anyone know about Spanish third parties and who is more likely (the Popular Party or the Socialists) to form a coalition gummint?

p.s. I am sick at heart.....

Posted by WUZZALIB 2004-3-14 4:34:29 PM|| 2004-3-14 4:34:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Icecold, they ran on the platform of stepping back from the war on terror. Of course they will follow through with their promise.

From this day on whenever I think of Spain I will think of appeasers. This election will go down as infamous and be an embarassment to Spain for decades.

Posted by Damn_Proud_American 2004-3-14 4:38:04 PM|| [http://brighterfuture.blogspot.com] 2004-3-14 4:38:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 The Popular Party has conceded; the Socialists have won.

Oh, well. Que sera, sera. I guess we'll see shortly what changes the new government will actually make; Spain may withdraw from the war against totalitarian Islam, or it may keep on fighting.

No matter what policy changes the new Spanish government makes, the Socialist victory there will send a powerful message of hope to Islamofascists everywhere: hit the Europeans hard enough, and they will run away yelping, their tails between their legs.

There will be much rejoicing in Ragheadville tonight, for Europe's nightmare has now begun.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-3-14 4:40:41 PM|| 2004-3-14 4:40:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Whoever was the guily (ETA or Al Quaida) it is a very, very bad day for the war on terror. It has shown that crime pays. I expect future bombings aimed at influencing elections in coalition members.

Posted by JFM 2004-3-14 4:54:13 PM|| 2004-3-14 4:54:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Europe chooses dhimmitude.

Posted by someone 2004-3-14 4:55:54 PM|| 2004-3-14 4:55:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Shame on the Spaniards. So from this, I take it that being "Civilized" means tucking tail and hoping the enemy pities you enough to have mercy on you. The Terrorist won. Watch out for more hits - the precedent has been set. Europe has been lost to Islamic fanatics. Shame, Shame, Shame. Spain and Europe deserve whatever they get now and I guarantee they will not hesitate to come begging for the US to bail them out again.

How long do you think it will be before the terrorists lay their sights on the Vatican?

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-3-14 5:03:14 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:03:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 YS
Not till JPII dies. After that the smoke will be green.

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-3-14 5:05:30 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:05:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 This really disgusts me.

Perhaps the new ruling party will encourage more "anti-terrorism rallies" to really bring Al-Quaeda to their knees.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-3-14 5:10:38 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:10:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I'm depressed! Large scale atrocities look like becoming a standard feature of election campaigns from now on.

Posted by Phil B 2004-3-14 5:16:31 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:16:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Al Qaeda successfully influences an election per their own captured documentation... this guarantees that there will be bombs going off in America killin innocents to influence our election in October...

Thanks to the cowardly Spanish Socialist party...

So JFKerry(D) through his explicit refusal to admit there is a war on terror has recruited Al Qaeda to bomb/campaign for the (D)'s...

We have seen the greatest defeat in the war on terror since 911 and we are doing it to ourselves.

Posted by DANEgerus 2004-3-14 5:17:46 PM|| [http://www.danegerus.com/weblog] 2004-3-14 5:17:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 A few months back Spain took a hit in Iraq. I forget the precise number of Spainish soldiers killed when bombed by terrorists in Iraq. Something like 16-18 people killed (?) in one fell swoop. Then came Madrid on Thursday. Now I read that the Spainish electorate has decided to be governend by it's left wing socialist party. It would appear AQ has been able to influence the outcome of an election of a democratic governement by killing less than 220 souls (and maiming numerous others). The conservative party is being punsihed for taking a stand against Islamic terrorism. Astonishing. I think this is a sad day for Spain. Even moreso than 3-11.

Posted by Mark 2004-3-14 5:18:39 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:18:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Sat here feeling real angry , don't the fuckin Spanish see they've just given AQ an absolutly huge victory.I'm sorry if i appear racist but the Spaniards can now officially join france,germany and belgium on the euro coward shit heap, I wish the U.K could just put engines on our country and move to the other side of the atlantic, maybe in a few thousand years eh. Shame on you you greasy bin-laden loving spaniards and don't come running to us when you get the next boom, we don't deal with appeasers.

Posted by Jon Shep U.K 2004-3-14 5:21:40 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:21:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Shep,

No more booms in Spain. They're on board with dhimmitude. Next boom Athens.

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-3-14 5:24:49 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:24:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Jeebus. The more I think about this, the worse it looks.

The Spanish have lost their nerve and opted, it appears, for appeasement. Is Britain next? Seems to me, Blair has been bucking public opinion in his support for the U.S. almost as much as Aznar was. Could an Islamonazi attack in London be next? How about Warsaw, to teach the Poles a lesson? And then Sydney, Australia to knock them out of the game...

What about us? Are we next, here in the States? Will we have a little surprise the last week of October, courtesy of al Qaeda, to tip the scales in favor of John Kerry?

This does not bode well.

Not only does it not bode well for us, it especially does not bode well for the Islamic world: if the WoT goes dormant due to a dearth of allies--and/or a dearth of courage on our own part--then there's nothing stopping this menace from rebuilding itself anew.

And if they attack us again a few years down the road, the next U.S. president will know one thing from experience: the world does not have the collective will to sustain a long fight.

So he will do the only thing he can do under the circumstances: he will obliterate the entire Arab world in one titanic flash.

Mark my words: if we abandon this War on Terrorism, there will be another one someday; and it will last only about 20 minutes.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-3-14 5:27:04 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:27:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 So are they passing out the candy in Nablus and Ramallah yet?

Posted by 11A5S 2004-3-14 5:28:33 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:28:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 I'm now convinced that the USA, U.k, Poland etc will all see AQ attacks weeks and days before the election.Thanks alot spain you've given AQ thier greatest hope yet and our biggest defeat in one fell swoop,i can see it now 'Spain the Islamic terrorist gateway to europe'

Posted by Jon Shep U.K 2004-3-14 5:33:56 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:33:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 After that the smoke will be green. What's that mean?

Posted by Edward Yee 2004-3-14 5:34:16 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:34:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 EY: Green is the color of Islam.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-3-14 5:38:00 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:38:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Wuzzalib, as I understand it (and I really don't) the Socialists because they don't have an outright majority will now have to form a coalition government, presumably with the Communist Party (see, it can get worse.) See the post at www.iberiannotes.blogspot.com

I hope the Socialists have the decency to take those two red stripes off the Spanish flag.

But the issue is: them's the facts, now what are we going to do about them?

Posted by Matt 2004-3-14 5:43:03 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:43:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 The UK is next. I expect AQ to go all out for a really big set of coordinated booms. Stay out of the London Underground!

Posted by Phil B 2004-3-14 5:43:28 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:43:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 This has been a very interesting a thoughtful thread. I think that it is too early to entirely say what the Socialist Government will do in reference to their help in the WoT. Elections are complex things, electorates tend to switch from right to left and then from left to right for a lot reasons...all of which are probably not connected to the Madrid Bombings.

Of course, such subtlety will be lost on the Islamists and they will perceive it as a victory, even if not true.

And therefore, most future elections will be marked with Islamic Violence.

Posted by Traveller 2004-3-14 5:54:12 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:54:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 IIRC The cardinals burn the ballots after each vote for a new pope. Black smoke indicates there was no consensus on a new pope. White smoke indicates a selection has been agreed upon.

When Berlusconi departs, the major Catholic countries of Europe will have become dhimmi.

John Paul II is now the third longest serving pope in history. While not seriously ill, his years are showing. Under his papacy the number and vigor of third world Catholics and cardinals has increased substantially. When he dies, the election of his successor could be a very interesting process and will be critical to the future direction of the church.

Green smoke was meant to indicate that the jihadists may be able to achieve their goal through Euro dhimmi Cardinals as opposed to the terrorist strike on the Vatican mentioned by Yosemite Sam.

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-3-14 5:54:41 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:54:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Their country, their choice. But I hope they're not too surprised when the Moors come to "take back" Andalusia and we're too busy someplace else to help.

And we should pull all of our troops out of Bosnia, too. Let the Euros handle it, since they're so much more sophisicated and nuanced than we are. And Haiti, for that matter. Send all the Haitian refugees to France - at least they'll speak the language better than the Middle Eastern immigrants that are there now.

It's pretty sad that our "friends" of the past 60 years don't get it, while our enemy of the same time (Russia) understands the Islamist threat, even if they aren't willing to help us with it.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-3-14 5:54:54 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:54:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 I am surprised no one has identified the big winner today, Jacques Chiraq. Another Euro dhimmi regime ready to face down the evil Hyper-puissant Americans.

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-3-14 5:58:58 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:58:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Barbara, don't be too hard on Russia...they have their hands full with their own Islamfacist threat.

They seem to be killing them as fast as they can.

Posted by Traveller 2004-3-14 5:59:00 PM|| 2004-3-14 5:59:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 If the Socialists pull the Spanish contingent out of Iraq, we could paint a large Spanish flag on our armored vehicles, with the legend in Arabic, "Spain and the US: Eternal Allies." It's the least we can do to show our support in this difficult moment. Perhaps also some leaflets like that in the tribal areas of Pakistan.

Posted by Matt 2004-3-14 6:06:40 PM|| 2004-3-14 6:06:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 It's not that no one noticed, Mr. D., it's just that putting the words "Chirac" and "winner" in the same sentence is so... unnatural.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-3-14 6:06:49 PM|| 2004-3-14 6:06:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Next strike could be UK ... but I wouldn't be surprised if it were Italy instead, though.

Start with the smaller participants and cow the other Euro states, then UK or Australia. US somewhere in there when/if they can pull it off - they've been stymied a few times this past year.

I am heartsick. So many in the West don't feel their own civilization is worth defending .. indeed, they are vaguely ashamed of it. And of course, if there is no honor, no courage and no willingness to sacrifice, perhaps theirs isn't worth protecting.

Posted by rkb 2004-3-14 6:07:37 PM|| 2004-3-14 6:07:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Like I said,Europe has gotten the message.The alliance is dead.From now on,we'll do whatever it takes to appease the Jihadists.Expect no cooperation from us in the WOT,an even harder line against Israel,and soon-to-be-reached "understanding" with the Mullahs in Iran.

Posted by El Id 2004-3-14 6:09:49 PM|| 2004-3-14 6:09:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Nobody is pointing out that these sort of attacks take a long time to plan and execute, far longer than the action in Iraq. It was a matter of convience for AQ that the election was within their planning time frame. The spanish should have been told this over and over, this is an aweful day.

Posted by Anonymous 2004-3-14 6:09:56 PM|| 2004-3-14 6:09:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Australia because of its strict immigration system and secure borders is too hard a nut to crack. If not the UK then France to try and get a symbolic backdown on the tudung issue.

Posted by Phil B 2004-3-14 6:16:06 PM|| 2004-3-14 6:16:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Re comment #35: Um, maybe I lack info, but the attack on 3/11 seemed to be ridiculously low-tech and simple to pull off, unless synchronizing watches has become a lot more difficult. I'm not saying it wouldn't take some work, but that it doesn't seem all that complex.

Posted by Just John 2004-3-14 6:19:03 PM|| 2004-3-14 6:19:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Then why hasn't this been happening every day for the last year ? Even 'simple' low tech actions require planning, and AQ MO seems to be to plan for attacks for multiple years ...

Posted by Anonymous 2004-3-14 6:23:30 PM|| 2004-3-14 6:23:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Well, folks, it appears that appeasement may have won the day. But before we all gather around the circle of group despair and have a pity party, we are going to require time to see how things shake out in the new Spanish government.

People voted with their emotions in the election which came on the heels of a dastardly, coordinated attack. The attack appears to have produced the desired effect upon the populace, just like the 9-11 WTC attackers were trying to achieve but failed in the US.

I am not willing to write off Spain yet until I see how things shake out. The implications of the attack have not sunk in yet for the Spanish people. I also feel, though I am loth to say it, that it may take several more hits in Europe to wake up the populace to their peril.

The coming weeks and months will be cruical to the direction that the war will take. If other countries like Britain, France, Poland, Germany, et al, cave in, then the jihadis can save their explosives and take over the non-violent infiltration way. If other countries stand, like the UK did in the Battle of Britain, then there is hope. Not only for Europe, but for the people of the Muslim Middle East, who will live instead of becoming dusty radioactive daughters of Uranium and Plutonium.

My advice to this Administration: hope for the best, but plan for the worst. The World War is ramping up. Europe is in it, like it or not.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-3-14 6:25:47 PM|| 2004-3-14 6:25:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 #30 Traveller - I'm not talking about the Russians' response to their own Islamic terrorists; I know they're doing their best to kill them all. I was referring to their actions to help the Iraqis against us. But I don't hold it against them the way I hold the same types of actions against the French, etc. The Russians never pretended to be our friends or allies.

#33 rkb - If the Euros really care about the people in Islamic countries (Yes, I know they really don't, no matter what they say), they'll grow a spine and get seriously committed to war against terrorists, including going out and killing some on their own.

We're not going to give in and allow our country to be destroyed, no matter how much the Islamists and Euros want it (and the idiot Euros better think about what such an event would do to their own already-in-the-shitter economies), so if our allies drop out of the fight and we find we don't have enough ground troops to take the fight to the enemy, we'll have to do with the Air Force and missiles. And that will be bad news for the people of whatever Islamic country we're having to attack for supporting terrorists. Better them than us, though.

The U.S. will never the loved, no matter now hard the LLL and the Dhimmi-crats try. There are many who will never respect us, either, but I'll settle for being feared if it means the rest of the world will LEAVE US ALONE.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-3-14 6:27:41 PM|| 2004-3-14 6:27:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 Barbara, I agree with your sentiments ... but the election this Fall will show whether we are in the majority or not.

El Id, Europe has already reached an "understanding" with Iran, giving them enough time to finish the weapons program. The UN now won't even reopen the question of inspections until June. Europe has won this one, we all lost (even Europe, they just don't realize it yet).

Posted by rkb 2004-3-14 6:39:54 PM|| 2004-3-14 6:39:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Then why hasn't this been happening every day for the last year?

A very good question. There are three key components. Money, explosives and people willing willing to sacrifice themselves.

I doubt money is a problem. There seems to be plenty of Saudi charity money and increasingly drug money. Explosives is a harder problem. You either have to have a secure supply or make your own which requires some expertise, but not a lot. Anyone with a chemistry degree should be able to manage it. Once you know how, manufacturing large amounts of explosives is not a problem as the IRA demonstrated. Which leaves people, which is where I believe the limiting factor lies. Finding committed people who pose no risk of being a spy takes time and organization. The bad news is I think 'successes' like the Madrid bombs will increase the supply of people. My prediction is it is going to get a lot worse unless there is a major crackdown on militant muslims, which now looks like it is unlikely after the Spanish election where the message was 'take a hardline on the WoT and get voted out of office'.

This has been a bad few days. If were religous, which I am not, I would be praying for a Bush win in November.

Posted by Phil B 2004-3-14 6:57:27 PM|| 2004-3-14 6:57:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Traveller-
And therefore, most future elections will be marked with Islamic Violence.

...Especially ours. If JFK continues to mouth off in ways that encourage AlQ to think we might be pushed, God help us next November - we could be in for attacks that could dwarf 911.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2004-3-14 7:10:34 PM|| 2004-3-14 7:10:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 A very good question. There are three key components. Money, explosives and people willing willing to sacrifice themselves.

All of which would suggest a deal of planning ...

Posted by Anonymous 2004-3-14 7:13:55 PM|| 2004-3-14 7:13:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 The time frame for planning something like this is months, not years, Anonymous. If it really took years, then the planning for attacks in Iraq would have started before the invasion.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-3-14 7:26:12 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-3-14 7:26:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 More importantly, in the short term for Spain, is what message this sends to ETA. I'd guess: "make your kills bigger and more random and you have a chance" - Bad message, very, very bad...

(I say that as a person of Basque heritage disgusted with the ETA and their tactics)

Posted by Frank G 2004-3-14 7:53:40 PM|| 2004-3-14 7:53:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 I'd side with Alaska Paul right now: we don't know what's going to happen just yet. I'll give the new Spanish government a chance to reflect soberly on what it would mean to pull back from the WoT.

But if they pull out of Iraq it's going to be a real problem. The Spanish not only police a good chunk of central Iraq, they also co-sponsor the various Latin American countries that have sent troops. Each of the LA countries that have done so have sent small contingents, but the net effect is significant. I can't imagine them staying if the Spanish pull out. And that leaves a hole that we (realistically) are going to have to fill. I think that means a Marine expeditionary force.

I doubt the Spanish will pull back in other areas of the WoT -- they'll still share intelligence, cooperate in seizing funds, etc. That will be useful but the public perception is that they'll have caved, and al-Q will grow because of that.

Frank: good point about the ETA. No matter how small and rejected they are right now, they have a road map, don't they.

Posted by Steve White 2004-3-14 8:10:27 PM|| 2004-3-14 8:10:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 I don't think the train bombings had so much to do with the socialists' victory. It was more a case of the Spanish anti-war crowd being bigger than anyone thought. Combined with the impression that Bush lied regarding the WMD in Iraq (and this is much more believable in Europe) and you have a situation where even the fence-sitters were persuaded to vote for a change in government. Notice the signs that the people were carrying in the Madrid rallies yesterday: they all read "Peace". This was the same anti-war crowd that took to the streets a year ago. The train booms just heightened peoples' emotions.

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-14 8:17:17 PM|| 2004-3-14 8:17:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 All of which would suggest a deal of planning

You have to differentiate between planning and organization. Planning doesn't take long. Organization does. The key question is can we tear down their organization faster than they can build it up. I don't know the answer but I strongly suspect that in Europe we are losing this battle.

Posted by Phil B 2004-3-14 8:19:00 PM|| 2004-3-14 8:19:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 What will the new Spanish government do? The Daily Telegraph reports:

Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, the Socialist leader, said: "My most immediate priority is to beat all forms of terrorism," after asking for a minute's silence for the victims.

The Socialists have proposed to withdraw 1,300 Spanish troops from Iraq.

That would break the unity of the coalition policing Iraq and would be portrayed in the Arab world as a victory for al-Qa'eda.

Juan Fernando Lopez Aguilar, one of the leading Socialist Party figures, told the Telegraph yesterday that it would put withdrawal from Iraq at the top of its agenda.

"One of the first decisions will be to bring the troops back home," he said. "We have said that we would pull them out by June 30.

"We have always believed it has not been a legitimate occupation of a foreign land and has no constitutional basis."

Mr Lopez Aguilar denied that this could be seen as a victory for the terrorists. "It is not intended to send any message to al-Qa'eda. It is a political commitment," he said.

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-3-14 8:24:11 PM|| 2004-3-14 8:24:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 I'm willing to bet that the big media in Spain all tend toward the Socialist spectrum. The big media can control the message for a few days after a big event. Put two and two together.

Ironically, the Spanish were carrying 'no to murderers and no to cowards' banner a few days ago. They've now voted yes to both.

Posted by mhw 2004-3-14 9:20:56 PM|| 2004-3-14 9:20:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 So the war inters a new middle game. Spain has chosen to be cool. Socialist! Tsk tsk. A Spain divided. As is Europe. The ABBA crowed has been energized. Popular culture is a powerful thing. Spain is a young democracy. They must flirt with the nanny state. But make no mistake. There are many in Spain ready to retake this challenge. Buck up Rantburg. The games in play!

Interesting times. Can't wait to read Vic Hanson's thoughts on this.

Posted by Lucky 2004-3-14 9:55:27 PM|| 2004-3-14 9:55:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 A lot of good posts here, especially the ones that point out the different angles... and there are tons. But nothing is predictable nowadays.

As a response to another post on how things will go as a result of the election..

First things first... A majority coalition (176 seats) would appear to be needed for the next government. This would appear to naturally the PSOE (socialists - 164 seats) and partner IU (leftish/communist - 5 seats)and the ERC (Catalunian leftists - 8 seats). This might be a little tricky for the socialists as there already is a decentralized socialistic state (with 100% dependence on oil imports) in Spain that doens't have much left to offer to offer regional and leftist groups, and these small parties are not exactly "mainstream" reasonable (if that is the goal of the Socialists... to be "mainsteam reasonable")

On the other hand, a coalition with the losing conservatives is always possible as a balancing trick against the above. Quite possible if the world situation forces Spain's political parties to make their international affairs their first priority instead of tit for tat domestic bickering.

Posted below is the relevant part of the Spanish Constitution... if you care to do some alternative math.

Article 99

1. After renewal of the Congress of Deputies, and in other cases provided under the Constitution, the King, after consultation with the representatives appointed by the political groups with Parliamentary representation, and through the President of Congress, shall propose a candidate for President of the Government.

2. The candidate proposed in accordance with the provisions of the foregoing paragraph shall submit to the Congress of Deputies the political programme of the Government that he intends to form and shall seek the confidence of the Houses.

3. If the Congress of Deputies, by vote of the absolute majority of its members, invests said candidate with its confidence, the King shall appoint him President. If an absolute majority is not obtained, the same proposal shall be submitted for a fresh vote forty-eight hours after the previous vote, and it shall be considered that confidence has been secured if it passes by a simple majority.

4. If, after this voting, confidence for the investiture has not been obtained, successive proposals shall be voted upon in the manner provided. in the foregoing paragraphs.

5. If within two months after the first vote for investiture no candidate has obtained the confidence of Congress, the King shall dissolve Congress and call new elections, following endorsement by the President of Congress.

Posted by Anonymous 2004-3-14 9:58:20 PM|| 2004-3-14 9:58:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 LLLs everywhere rejoice at this abject surrender. It vindicates their entire strategy of the past 40 years.
Since they obviously endorse this kind of daringly innovative electioneering, they surely cannot object if we do likewise.

I suggest that President Bush make the following statement just before the next election in France:

"People of France!
As you must surely know by now, the half dozen MOABs that fell yesterday on the 4th Arrondisement were a morally justified reprisal for the Chirac government's unreasonable policies on Iraq and Israel.
He and his evil minions are therefore wholly and entirely to blame for the resulting deaths and injuries, as well as for the deplorable loss of many national treasures, including large numbers of stolen bicycles, Arab-owned tabacs, and battered Citroen Meharis.
Vote accordingly.
Have a nice day."

For Spanish visitors:
Paz en nuestro tiempo----la paz de los muertos.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-3-14 10:19:49 PM|| 2004-3-14 10:19:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Atomic Conspiracy,

Well said!

Posted by Damn_Proud_American 2004-3-14 11:12:23 PM|| [http://brighterfuture.blogspot.com] 2004-3-14 11:12:23 PM|| Front Page Top

04:57 Anonymous
11:09 Mr. Davis
05:52 B
23:47 GK
23:37 whitecollar redneck
23:30 Jack Deth
23:28 TS
23:28 Damn_Proud_American
23:24 Jack Deth
23:20 Old Patriot
23:18 whitecollar redneck
23:12 Damn_Proud_American
23:11 Damn_Proud_American
23:00 Laurence of the Rats
22:41 A Jackson
22:40 IceCold
22:37 IceCold
22:19 Atomic Conspiracy
22:11 Mr. Davis
22:07 mojo
21:58 Anonymous
21:55 Lucky
21:34 Super Hose
21:30 Super Hose