Article

2004-03-11 Europe

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Posted by True German Ally 2004-03-11 2:44:46 AM|| || Front Page|| [11144 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The Spanish "Periodista Digital" speaks of "at least" 15 dead and 50 wounded, death toll probably a lot higher.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-3-11 2:57:46 AM|| 2004-3-11 2:57:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Death toll between 50 and 60 now.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-3-11 3:17:14 AM|| 2004-3-11 3:17:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Sigh...Civilization is so vulnerable.

Posted by Traveller 2004-3-11 3:43:25 AM|| 2004-3-11 3:43:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 It's getting worse: Periodico Digital already speaks of 100 deads and more explosions moments ago.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-3-11 4:01:34 AM|| 2004-3-11 4:01:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Lets say that for sake of arguement Madrid caved and granted full independence to the Basques and Catalans. Just how long before the remnants of the ETA would be booming again. But then is really the work of the ETA or have they forged any AL Queda links? If they have I've got the feeling they are well and truely fucked

Posted by Cheddarhead 2004-3-11 6:09:02 AM|| 2004-3-11 6:09:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Mother of God, up to 131 now.

Are there any ETA apologists in this country? If so, they should be swinging from the nearest lamppost by sundown.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-3-11 6:17:51 AM|| 2004-3-11 6:17:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 I wouldn't jump to the conclusion its ETA. Remember Spain was a prominent supporter of the Iraq war.

Posted by Phil B 2004-3-11 6:24:11 AM|| 2004-3-11 6:24:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Latest link:
The Spanish government won't cave to these savages.
Many characteristics have been attributed to the Spanish leadership over the centuries, but "easily frightened" isn't one of them.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-3-11 6:25:52 AM|| 2004-3-11 6:25:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Eta planned to blow a major skycrapper in Madrid in 2000. Estimated death toll was around 3000. Spain would have suffered her own 9/11 had it not been thwarted by the police.

ETA people are in the same class than Al Quaida for ruthlessness and savagery.

Posted by JFM 2004-3-11 6:37:44 AM|| 2004-3-11 6:37:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Much more likely to have been ETA than A/Q given the interception of a Madrid-bound ETA explosives delivery two weeks ago, and the arrests of two suspected ETA bombers in the city on Christmas Eve. ETA are on the ropes, and desperate. This oversized atrocity like the lashing-out of a wounded animal.

Simply being a member of a terrorist organisation ought to result in natural-life imprisonment, IMO.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-11 6:45:54 AM|| 2004-3-11 6:45:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 I've just gone numb after 9/11, the Intifada, Iraq and the Bali bombings...the horror.
Al Queda is involved, I just know it: it's too coordinated and sophisticated.
Basque homeland=Palestine, Kashmir, Chechnya
The Islamists want Spain back and have it as it was when they ruled Moorish Spain and before they were ignominiously kicked out in 1492, the year Columbus discovered America.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro 2004-3-11 6:48:42 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-3-11 6:48:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 On Christmas Eve, Spanish police intercepted 2 ETA thugs trying to bomb a train station.
The elections are 3 days away. How to deal with ETA has been a major issue.
I think the voters have their answer now.

Then again, as a socialist direct-action front, ETA would naturally be in solidarity with oppressed Saddamites, downtrodden Paleo-boomers, and persecuted Hezbollah butchers. ETA could conceivably have developed connections with them through the murky underground of European terror gangs.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-3-11 6:49:27 AM|| 2004-3-11 6:49:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Bulldog -
"Simply being a member of a terrorist organisation ought to result in natural-life imprisonment, IMO."
Regards keeping them alive - I must ask why? To what end? Terrorists, as the name implies, deal in death to innocents to put pressure upon those who are sworn to protect the citizenry to further some cause. Whether caught before or after a terrorist attack, if proven part of the org, their lives should be forfeit. Paying for their continued existence is just an added insult to their victims. Sorry, but this seems so obvious to me that your comment demanded I say something! Cheers & Regards - and it's damned good to see you back!!! :-)

Posted by .com 2004-3-11 7:30:04 AM|| 2004-3-11 7:30:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Body count is up to 173 now according to Reuters and CNN, I hope the Spanish government has the balls to deal with these A**holes in the only way that works, pursuing the perps and all those who assist them to the end of the earth and then some.

Condolences to all the people who have lost a loved one today in this despicable act.

Posted by Evert Visser 2004-3-11 7:36:27 AM|| [http://chinditz.blog-city.com/] 2004-3-11 7:36:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Jennie, of course the Islamacists want Spain to be reconquered. However, ETA was a ruthless, well organized gang long before AQ got started.

Posted by rkb 2004-3-11 7:42:53 AM|| 2004-3-11 7:42:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 ETA or AQ?From the Beeb story:

"Last month, two Basques suspected of being Eta members were arrested as they headed to Madrid in a truck laden with explosives."

And:"..last December, Spanish authorities said they foiled a Basque separatist plot to blow up a train at a Madrid rail station."

Too many coincidences,I think.

Posted by El Id 2004-3-11 7:49:55 AM|| 2004-3-11 7:49:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 So much for the ceasefire proposal.

Posted by Shipman 2004-3-11 7:57:19 AM|| 2004-3-11 7:57:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Yes, rkb, but they've found lots of reasons to make common cause.
And pulling off an attack like this in the USA is too hard. (Thank God!).
God rest the souls of the victims.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro 2004-3-11 8:01:01 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-3-11 8:01:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 OTOH, Jennie, I think it's a mistake to see all terrorism as Islamofascist and all Islamofascists as associated with al-Qaeda. What is happening around the world is really a fight between those who want to move into a freer, more prosperous future and those who wish to retreat to a medieval mindset and localized power / control. ETA really doesn't need any help from alQ to plan or carry out its attacks - their murderous ideology has been fostered and acted on for decades now.

We really are in a war to preserve civilization from ALL these groups IMO.

Posted by rkb 2004-3-11 8:28:56 AM|| 2004-3-11 8:28:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 "Regards keeping them alive - I must ask why?"

Hey, .com! I'm suggesting life-imprisonment as the minimum penalty for anyone involved in groups, like ETA, which pursue lethal violence for political ends. That includes not only the active elements but fundraisers, quartermasters, trainees etc. - not just the killers (who should be subject to this minimum sentence, or exectution if applicable). IMO, the only sensible way to treat organisations like these is to unreservedly demonise them, and to isolate them from their potential source base by making membership of, or association with, them as unappealing as possible.

Re. the death penalty: for commonly perceivedly 'romantic' causes such as Basque independence which recruit primarily from the so-called idealistic and hot-headed youth in a community, I am sure that a life wasted behind bars would provide more of a deterrent than a glorious martyrdom. And when I say wasted, I mean wasted. Total exclusion from society and all its benefits...

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-11 8:43:17 AM|| 2004-3-11 8:43:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 I agree completely, rkb; terrorism is terrorism and the name of the "group" perpetrating it is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
(But I think that Islamofascist terrorists, particularly Al Queda are masterminding it and have the "learning curve" on things like bombs and strategy.)
For updates from Spain, check out John's Iberian Notes.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro 2004-3-11 8:47:06 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-3-11 8:47:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 rkb - Agree entirely. Acting like A/Q doesn't mean operating with A/Q. Simultaneous attacks aren't just a hallmark of A/Q - they make good operational sense. Besides, A/Q prefers symbolic targets - in this respect it's not got their signature.

Three days from the Spanish elections, and within three months of two other thwarted ETA attacks on the city? My money's still on Basques.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-11 8:54:01 AM|| 2004-3-11 8:54:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 OTOH, Jennie, I think it's a mistake to see all terrorism as Islamofascist

OTOH its a mistake to try and assign blame elsewhere in the mistaken idea of being fair and balanced.

I'm willing to bet that there are islamofacist hands behind this even if the perpetrators are ETA.

Posted by Phil B 2004-3-11 8:54:03 AM|| 2004-3-11 8:54:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 Bulldog - Ah, gotcha now. I certainly agree with everything you say up to the death penalty, anyway. I can accept your view. Here in the US, the concept of crime and punishment has been usurped by the social twits - it's now crime and rehabilitation, followed by more crime. The notions of these Ketchup-Girl style idjits are not supported by fact - recidivism rates prove it's a joke in a significantly high percentage of cases, but PCism doesn't let mere facts get in their way - they're right, just cuz they're so special! I say, in my simplisme fashion: If it's all grown up and it's broken, you're just gonna have to kill it. Because it will repeat.

If Eeeewwww countries gave stiff sentences - and the convicts had to serve the entire sentence, I'd sign onto your idea more readily. They don't do either one. Here, we give stiff sentences in most cases involving violence, but we often don't follow through and let them out far too soon - while they're young enough to do more damage and after they've had a nice refresher course in new techniques from other hardcases. The systems both suck. Mine is guaranteed to work - if you have the right guy, which improving modern forensics is making more certain all the time. Off with their heads! Uh, oops, sorry 'bout that! ;->

Posted by .com 2004-3-11 9:05:02 AM|| 2004-3-11 9:05:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 It's definitely ETA, although they might have "learned" from islamofascist attacks.

The former ETA leader BelÃ©n GonzÃ¡lez PeÃ±alba had warned in 1984 already that in the case ETA wanted to negotiate, it would "put hundred deads on the table".

It is also clear that ETA planned several murderous attacks which were foiled including bombing the other major Madrid railway station ChamartÃn. Those could have killed hundreds as well, so the break from the "usual pattern" of targeted "small and announced bombings" does not come as a surprise.

The leftist Basques will of course not accept ETA as the perpetrators of this attack as this is certain to "help" Aznar's conservative Partito Popular in the upcoming election. An islamist attack might instead (so they think) help the Socialists who disaproved Aznar's stance in the WOT and Iraq and think Spain should have stayed out of all this. The Spanish people did oppose the Iraq war with a 70% majority but recent polls showed that the Socialists haven't been able to instrumentalize that war opposition very much.

Herri Batasuna, the "political arm" of Basque separatists, has denied that ETA has anything to do with it, which is rather understandable. What we could have here is a extremely radical faction of ETA doing the massacre.

There is another lead that should be followed. Only a month ago Aznar pledged his support to Colombia's president Uribe to eliminate the FARC. It is known that ETA members have trained with Colombian guerilla in Colombia.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-3-11 9:36:56 AM|| 2004-3-11 9:36:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 Mis Taliaferro

In 1492 Christians entered Granada. In that same year Jews who refused to convert were thrown out of Spain in the name of religious unity. I don't remember if same measure applied immediatey to Muslims or only after several uprisings. However a few decades later the converted Muslims were expulsed too. One of the reasons was that Spain was at war with Turkey and couldn't afford to have a minority acting like a fifth column, the other was the pressure of Old Christians. During centuries the Christians living in occupied Spain had seen their properties stolen through the discriminations set by Sharia (for instance if one brother converted to Islam he got all the heirloom from his parents with the Chritians getting nothing): they were not happy when they saw Muslims being able to keep their ill gotten gains through conversion real or feinted.

While I disagree in the "ignominous" character of Muslim expulsion it is true that Spain is a thorn in the heart of the Islam-fascists with both the Saudi royalty and Ben Laden having expressed sorrow about the fall of Spain to Christian hands.

Posted by JFM 2004-3-11 9:43:22 AM|| 2004-3-11 9:43:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Good background history, JFM (and you can call me "Jen"--I apologize for not having returned your email. My bad. I will write back, I promise!)
I'm listening to BBC World News online for whatever that's worth.
A terror "expert" just commented that ETA wasn't known for carrying out attacks on this scale and with huge amounts of explosives...and then there's the simultaneous timing, etc.
If it turns out to be ETA, they certainly had some coaching and expertise help from somewhere.
Anyway, we're all Spaniards today and send them our prayers and condolences and our solidarity in fighting terrorism wherever it strikes in the world.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro 2004-3-11 9:49:57 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-3-11 9:49:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 Jen

Eta hasn't carried attacks in this scale. But they have altready tried mass murder for New Eve 2000. If plan had worked the death toll would have been in teh same order of 9/11. It was foiled. And in the last weeks the Spanish police has been intercepting massive shipments of explosives by ETA. I really don't believe it was Al Quaida.

Posted by JFM 2004-3-11 10:07:12 AM|| 2004-3-11 10:07:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 Al Qaeda (or other islamist bombers) would have needed to make a point with their attack: The killing needed to have a symbolic value.

ETA doesn't need to make that point. Although I believe they will come to regret this dearly. Politically they just committed suicide.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-3-11 10:18:31 AM|| 2004-3-11 10:18:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 JFM + Others. Do a goggle search on ETA and you will find apparently credible commentators who say ETA has no more than 20 active members. Suddenly ETA is executing sophisticated coordinated bombings far from their home base.

Sorry, but I don't buy it.

Just watched the BBC and there was a whole procession of Euro politicians blaming ETA but so far no evidence.

My read on this is that the Euros are desperate to blame anyone except Islamicists because that would mean an Euro 911.

Posted by Phil B 2004-3-11 10:32:44 AM|| 2004-3-11 10:32:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 The spokesman of the now illegal Herri Batasuna said that it probably was "un operativo de sectores de la resistencia Ã¡rabe".
Gotta love it: "Arab resistance". Must be honor among terrorists...

Posted by True German Ally 2004-3-11 10:33:59 AM|| 2004-3-11 10:33:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 Rangingprofs says:

Andrea Mitchell on NBC now, saying that American intelligence will have to be convinced that this was ETA, particularly given the size of the blast.

She points out two things that perk my ears up: First, there still hasn't been a claim of responsibility. Apparently ETA always claims responsibility. I didn't know that, but what I do know is that al Queda never takes responsibility: it's part of their operational doctrine in fact.

Second, she notes that al-Zawahiri's last tape had included Spain on the list of possible targets.

Far, far, too little to be sure of anything right now, but I will also say that the fact that it was Spain perked my ears up some. To Western ears, Spain is one of a cluster of European countries. To bin Laden's boys it's a beachhead in time, a marker: Spain is as far as Islam reached in the West and where they lost their ground and if the theoretical posture is "that which was Muslim must be Muslim again," (what one author described as "an Islamic Brezhnev Doctrine") then you realize Spain has a certain emotional resonance for the bastards.

Or, ETA just got inspired and decided to try their hands at a mass casualty attack.

Wonder if AQ may have subcontracted a plan dreamed up by AQ or hired freelance ETA personnel to act as mules and maybe trigger pullers under AQ supervision.

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-3-11 10:38:06 AM|| 2004-3-11 10:38:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 Phil B, as sad as this sounds all this attack needed were some pretty good logistics. But a dedicated cell of 5 people could do the job.
Btw, El Periodista Digital has the headline: "El 11-M espaÃ±ol".
But this is not Al Qaeda. ETA has guys who know how to fabricate bombs. It never had problems to get huge quantities of explosives. The rest is some clever planning and a few "mules" to plant the bomb.
Unfortunately it's really not that difficult.
And ETA definitely has more than 20 active members. Don't believe everything you can google.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-3-11 10:44:07 AM|| 2004-3-11 10:44:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 But this is not Al Qaeda.

So you know that for a fact?

I agree it's likely it was ETA. However, likelihood doesn't mean certainty.

Hey, wasn't an Al'Jazeera editor arrested in Spain for his connections to terrorists? Didn't Atta do some of his planning and meeting in Spain?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-3-11 10:52:42 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-3-11 10:52:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 phil_b

If we were talking about Chirak I would believe he would be afraid of pointing at Al Quaida. But we are talking about Aznar and this guy has far more balls than all other euro-politicians put together.

Posted by JFM 2004-3-11 10:54:16 AM|| 2004-3-11 10:54:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 I've already read one report where an ETA type said the attacks were probably done by the "Arab Resistance."

To Jen: the ETA is already quite adroit at terrorism, even if the attack fits AQ's "simultaneous attacks" pattern. Although I suspect this might be some sort of "lie down with dogs and wake up with fleas" type situation. I've always gotten the impression that the ETA doesn't really care about Basque independence, and they're just another group like the Red Army Faction (but better at terrorism) espousing communist ideology with Basque independence "flavor sprinkles." The "Arab Resistance" line bothers me.

Posted by Phil Fraering 2004-3-11 10:57:41 AM|| [http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com] 2004-3-11 10:57:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 TGA I sorry but it does require money, people and logistics like safe houses in order to achieve these kinds of coordinated attacks. BBC is now reporting 13 bombs.

If you think 20 people living in hiding could achieve this outside their home base then I think you are being naive.

Posted by Phil B 2004-3-11 11:05:20 AM|| 2004-3-11 11:05:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#38 Well, good points, Phil.
What should worry us all is that terror groups everywhere--those who choose to murder innocent civilians--are now making it a point to meet, exchange info, perhaps get funding, have access to training grounds, etc.
ETA, Al Queda, FARC, the IRA, Jemayah Ismalaya. Hezbollah--have I left anyone out?
It is too easy for an ETA spokesman to blame it on "Arab resistance," but I get the feeling that if a fellow European like TGA says "Oh, yeah, it's ETA and no-one else" that this allows him and other EU citizens to dismiss the incident as just "a Spanish thing" and decide that Terrorism won't hurt them.
The ETA has now moved itself into the "as bad as" Al Queda territory: they use mass murder to attain political (if not religious) ends.
In this respect, they are virtually identical.
At this point, whether ETA and AlQ have joined common cause is almost academic.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro 2004-3-11 11:08:28 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-3-11 11:08:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#39 Phil B, I might be anything but not naive, believe me.
The explosive mix used was typical ETA: Titadyne Dynamite and Nitroglycerine.
We might agree that ETA copied from Al Qaeda.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-3-11 11:11:49 AM|| 2004-3-11 11:11:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#40 Jennie, no. I believe that tomorrow we could have a 9/11 anywhere in Europe, this is not the point.
But I object to the fact that every boom now automatically gets attributed to Al Qaeda. Let's face it, Al Qaeda is more or less a "trademark" we invented because the enemy is so shady.
But if tomorrow the same happens in Belfast, you'd first look for the home grown boomers.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-3-11 11:18:35 AM|| 2004-3-11 11:18:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#41 Don't know about the explosive mix, TGA, but my understanding is that ETA usually bombed a judge's car and didn't use dynamite on civilian commuter trains filled with women and children (and poor people--apparently, the trains hit were from Madrid's poorer neighborhoods).
If AQ didn't know the ETA groups before, they will now.
They would love to pull off an attack just like this.
The US already has one Islamist in jail who tried to bomb the NY subway in 1998.
They just had a subway blast in Moscow by "Chechen" terrorists who are linked with Al Queda.
The Left here is still trying to maintain that Saddam didn't have connections to AQ and/or 9/11, so why should they agree that AQ is involved here, even peripherally?
The pacifists and other anti-West/Leftist types will just call these "isolated incidents" by separate "separatist" groups of "militants."
Maybe I should be wearing a tin foil hat, but maybe people like me are right, too.
I hope that the US sends an FBI investigatory team to help out the Spanish just the same.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro 2004-3-11 11:24:13 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-3-11 11:24:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#42 Phil B, Jennie, you're running away with your own assumptions here. There is NO evidence suggesting this was the work of Islamists, whatsoever. There is, though, plenty of circumstantial evidence pointing to ETA, and, as TGA now indicates (gotta link, TGA?), material.

Simultaneous bombs = looks like A/Q. Could be any other group though, frankly. No one's talking about suicide bombers. The target's not a symbolic building. Europeans blaming ETA is not a result of us trying to evade the truth, as you think. It's simply the most likely explanation.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-11 11:26:52 AM|| 2004-3-11 11:26:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#43 Somone over at the command-post just pointed out that 11 september is exactly 6 months in the future/past.

Posted by Evert Visser 2004-3-11 11:35:40 AM|| [http://chinditz.blog-city.com/] 2004-3-11 11:35:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#44 TGA, I agree with you about AQ being a trademark, but I never mention AQ. If a similar attack occured in Belfast (and I suspect i am much more familiar with Belfast than you are) then I would suspect a non-IRA source. The only incident I can recall where there were coordinated attacks specifically targeting civilians was in Dublin in 1972 and protestant terrorists were responsible and incidentally I was within earshot when one of the bombs exploded.

And Bulldog I think the Euro politicians are far more guilty than me and Jennie of running away with their assumptions.

Posted by Phil B 2004-3-11 11:38:57 AM|| 2004-3-11 11:38:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#45 I find it curious that they weren't suicide bombers also, but maybe the group is small (both to start and because Spain has rounded up a lot of them), they can't spare the guys.
I don't think the target of the attack always has to be "symbolic buildings," though--in this case, it was a --if you'll forgive me--"target-rich" environment.
You have to admit, the images are almost as shocking as 9/11.
The impact is pretty devasting which is what they want.
Lee Harris calls it terrorist "theatre" which is based on their fantasy ideaology.
It's ennerving for me, because although we haven't had a major attack in the US, this one in a major capital of "civilized" (Old) Europe now shows that the Bad Guys are still out there and won't hesitate to hit us (Western Civilization's defenders) at home, as it were.
As I said before, if ETA hasn't met AQ yet, they will.
And that goes for the IRA, too.
Word has it that all these terror groups are training in the Three Borders area in South America, perhaps with FARC hosting.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro 2004-3-11 11:44:22 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-3-11 11:44:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#46 Spanish reports say that they are looking for two suspects with rucksacks boarding and leaving the respective trains in short intervals. Doesn't look like suicide bombers.
Bulldog, I can't link because the info is behind subscription but google for "titadine" + "Eta" and lots of Spanish sites come up. The stuff was piled up by etarras in Southern France where they seem to move a bit easier.
The "reason" for the multiple explosions was that they should happen inside the main railway building Atocha which might have caused the building to collapse. What that means in rush hour you can only imagine. It's a big railway station.
Btw Atocha is only a short walk away from the Spanish "Cortes" parliament.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-3-11 11:45:23 AM|| 2004-3-11 11:45:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#47 Phil B, the "simultaneity" plank of the A/Q theory falls away if you consider the possibility that terrorist groups are capable of adopting new techniques. In particular, a technique that has been repeatedly demonstrated for all the world to see over the last few years.

There are a lot more than 20 members of ETA, and you don't need local safehouses or heavy logistics to execute bombings like this. Potentially, one or two vehicles could even have travelled overnight from the Basque region down to Madrid's suburbs in time for the bombers to have boarded this morning's commuter trains.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-11 11:49:12 AM|| 2004-3-11 11:49:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#48 TGA, it had occurred to me that stations might have been the (symbolic) targets, but if so, all three attacks failed to reach their termini. The reason for the multiple placings of bombs on each train might simply have been to cause the maximum possible number of casualties on a linear target. Would these bombs really have brought the stations' roofs down?

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-11 11:54:45 AM|| 2004-3-11 11:54:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#49 Bulldog, you have to ask yourself "Why would they change tactics now?"
ETA members were only found with big amounts of explosives in the last 4-6 months.
Why aim for so many casualties?
Why no phoned-in warning beforehand, as is their wont?
Finally, why risk their certain political (if not physical) death?
The Spanish government will go after them with a vengeance and any credence their "cause" had with the Spanish people just went to zero.
This is about something much bigger than "Basque separatism."

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro 2004-3-11 12:02:21 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-3-11 12:02:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 It's a steel and glass structure... imagine sharp broken glass falling down from great heights and at 8pm you can barely move in the crowd. A 1000 people dead...minimum.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-3-11 12:08:40 PM|| 2004-3-11 12:08:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 Jennie,ETA are escalating their tactics for the same reason the "Real IRA" did with the Omagh bombing and the terrorists in Iraq with recent attacks:they're desperate.
Why?In recent years,the attack one-person-at-a-time strategy has only lead to increasing numbers of ETA members being sent to jail.The Basque terrorists' strategy depends on their ability to intimidate the Spanish government.Faced with diminishing numbers of hard-core terrorists,they need to prove they still have hope.Thus the one-upmanship.
Only this time,ETA have thrown the biggest card they have on the table.If it doesn't win,they're fucked.

Posted by El Id 2004-3-11 12:32:00 PM|| 2004-3-11 12:32:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 OK, TGA, sorry, forget what I said about stations - the bombs do seem to have been intended to detonate just as the trains arrived inside the termini. According to the BBC, three did go off in Atocha. Not sure how bad the structural damage was, though.

Jennie, If you posit that ETA, for whatever reason, did decide to 'suddenly' shift up a gear, most of your answers can be answered in one. A (panicky?) desire to try to remove support for Aznar in the upcoming elections? Most likely, IMO. It is possible that ETA have been liasing with Islamist terrorists, but there's currently no evidence for it. Don't expect rational behaviour from terrorists. As people have mentioned above, ETA has tried to cause mass destruction, on scales as big as this, before.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-11 12:41:03 PM|| 2004-3-11 12:41:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 my prediction:

we'll know more about who did this 48 hours from now.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-3-11 1:02:14 PM|| 2004-3-11 1:02:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 It amazes me how people assume 'sophistication' in an attack when all it requires is someone who knows how to set a freaking alarm clock. Look people, despite what the doe-eyed reporters what us to thing, this is not rocket science. Now, I'm not saying this is AQ or ETA. I don't know, but to assume (like phil_b and Jennie seem to be doing) it is AQ based on some illusory sophistication is being naive. You are also completely neglecting the fact that other organizations besides AQ can adapt and change techniques. Also you are neglecting the fact that this atrocity bears no more of AQ's MO than it does ETA's MO. Terrorism does not exist in a vacuum, there surely is communications between seperate terrorist organizations. ETA has been caught red-handed trying for a mass-casualty attack very recently. And phil_b, until I see proof there are no more than 20 ETA members I won't believe that! So to summarize, to assume, is to make an ass out of u and me. So don't do it.

Posted by AllahHateMe 2004-3-11 1:20:30 PM|| 2004-3-11 1:20:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Iberian says 190 dead

1400 wounded.

Posted by Anonymous2u 2004-3-11 1:52:24 PM|| 2004-3-11 1:52:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 Knowing ETA was busted a while back for plotting to blow up a train in Madrid, maybe this was al Qaeda trying to throw the Spanish authorities off the trail.

Posted by Tibor 2004-3-11 1:55:08 PM|| 2004-3-11 1:55:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 Two weeks ago the Spanish newspaper "El PaÃs" had the title: "Goodbye Eta". ETA had lost pretty much any support and appeared to be thoroughly weakened. That may still be so.

That's why they decided to imitate the Arab terrorists. They knew that they were finished politically".

Now they will need to find caves.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-3-11 2:13:46 PM|| 2004-3-11 2:13:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 Ten different bombs (according to BBC) exploded today.Not one of them was set against either a Jewish or an American target.'Nuff said.

Posted by El Id 2004-3-11 2:18:06 PM|| 2004-3-11 2:18:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 Spanish police has just found a suspect vehical carrying detonators & a tape in Arabic..

Posted by lyot 2004-3-11 2:56:58 PM|| 2004-3-11 2:56:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 CNN TV says it is not a Jihadi tape. This is not on the website yet.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-3-11 3:00:55 PM|| 2004-3-11 3:00:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 From AP:

The government initially blamed Basque separatists for the worst terrorist strike in Spanish history. But the interior minister said other lines of investigation were opened after police found a van with detonators and an audiotape of Quranic verses near where the bombed trains originated.

[EFL]

Police found a van with detonators and an Arabic-language tape with Quranic verses in the town of Alcala de Henares, 15 miles east of Madrid, Interior Minister Angel Acebes said Thursday night, saying all lines of investigation were open.

Posted by VAMark 2004-3-11 3:02:10 PM|| 2004-3-11 3:02:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Fox News saying it is a Jihadi tape:

A van with detonators and an Arabic-language tape of Koranic verses were found near Madrid, Interior Minister Angel Acebes said Thursday, opening new lines of investigation into the train bombings. So far, the probe has focused on the Basque separatist terror group ETA (search).

Posted by 11A5S 2004-3-11 3:03:17 PM|| 2004-3-11 3:03:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 I placed my bets with ETA,so I'm sticking with it:the tape was planted to throw the cops off track.The Jihadi angle is there to discredit Aznar gov's involvement in the Iraq war.That's why the Batasuna leader blamed "Arab resistance".They want to throw the election to the Socialists by implying Aznar provoked this attack by supporting the US.

Posted by El Id 2004-3-11 3:15:51 PM|| 2004-3-11 3:15:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 A claim of responsibility from Al Qaeda has been received by the Al-Quds paper (London).

Madrid Claim

This could, of course, just be an opportunistic claim.

Posted by Lux 2004-3-11 3:32:16 PM|| 2004-3-11 3:32:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 theories, so far

1. ETA, trying to hurt the Spanish Conservatives
2. ETA, trying to hurt the Spanish left (saw that on another site)
3. ETA, irrational, lashing out in desperation
4. AQ - to distance Spain from the US over Iraq
5. AQ - Andalusia, kill infidel, etc
6. AQ - trying to press ETA into a link with AQ
7. Rightists, trying to help Spanish Conservatives (yeah, it was a commie who posted that one)
8. Islamists other than AQ - for reasons not entirely clear, but presumably related to Iraq

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-3-11 3:41:28 PM|| 2004-3-11 3:41:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 If I remember well Al Qaeda also claimed responsibility for the recent big blackout in the U.S.

If you want your name in the press, this is the time to come forward and claim something.

Although I agree that investigations should always check out every possibility. Some of the WTC conspiracy theories originated in the fact that U.S. authorities knew so damn fast who exactly did it. A few details did sound strange then.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-3-11 3:47:08 PM|| 2004-3-11 3:47:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 LH, point 1, 3 and 6 are interesting. Although I would right now go for this:

9) ETA, bombing Spain to achieve a Spanish wave of oppression to refuel lost sympathies for "Independent Euskadi" cause (mix with your point 3). That's the old "red" terrorist strategy in democracies: Once people "understand" how "repressive" the system is they live in they will rise up against it.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-3-11 3:58:25 PM|| 2004-3-11 3:58:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 TGA - does that not also mix with point 2? If the PSOE wins, and compromises with the Basque equivalent of Gerry Adams, that takes the air out of ETA, no? So plant a bomb to get everyone mad and get PP reelected. Problem with that is that PP was ahead anyway, why take risks to get that? So maybe forget 2.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-3-11 4:09:13 PM|| 2004-3-11 4:09:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 TGA,I doubt if they used nitro.That stuff will blow fro a hard look.

Posted by Raptor 2004-3-11 5:35:41 PM|| 2004-3-11 5:35:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 My sympathy and condolences go to the people of Spain, and I wish them the best of luck hunting the monsters who are responsible.

Posted by BH 2004-3-11 7:14:39 PM|| 2004-3-11 7:14:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 The link in post 65 says police say bombs detonated by remote control. I smell Paleo involvement here.

Posted by Phil B 2004-3-11 7:30:38 PM|| 2004-3-11 7:30:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 .com: Regards keeping them alive - I must ask why? To what end?
As to keeping these scum alive, there are at least 2 good reasons. Like Bulldog said " I am sure that a life wasted behind bars would provide more of a deterrent than a glorious martyrdom." there's that reason. The reason I believe to keep these scumbags alive is: Make these pieces of trash work for the rest of their miserable lives doing menial stuff. Make 'em contribute back to the society(ies) they've tried to or have damaged. Possible jobs being things that can be filled by people with education no higher than HS, such as: collecting trash off the side of the road; loading blank license plates into a license plate machine and so on.
Once these barbarians have been sentenced to doing this kind of stuff for life, then their earnings from these jobs should be contributed to funding schools, hospitals, and other worthy social programmes.

Posted by Anonymous 2004-3-12 12:36:07 PM|| 2004-3-12 12:36:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 .com: Regards keeping them alive - I must ask why? To what end?
As to keeping these scum alive, there are at least 2 good reasons. Like Bulldog said " I am sure that a life wasted behind bars would provide more of a deterrent than a glorious martyrdom." there's that reason. The reason I believe to keep these scumbags alive is: Make these pieces of trash work for the rest of their miserable lives doing menial stuff. Make 'em contribute back to the society(ies) they've tried to or have damaged. Possible jobs being things that can be filled by people with education no higher than HS, such as: collecting trash off the side of the road; loading blank license plates into a license plate machine and so on.
Once these barbarians have been sentenced to doing this kind of stuff for life, then their earnings from these jobs should be contributed to funding schools, hospitals, and other worthy social programmes.

Posted by Anonymous 2004-3-12 12:36:12 PM|| 2004-3-12 12:36:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 .com: Regards keeping them alive - I must ask why? To what end?
As to keeping these scum alive, there are at least 2 good reasons. Like Bulldog said " I am sure that a life wasted behind bars would provide more of a deterrent than a glorious martyrdom." there's that reason. The reason I believe to keep these scumbags alive is: Make these pieces of trash work for the rest of their miserable lives doing menial stuff. Make 'em contribute back to the society(ies) they've tried to or have damaged. Possible jobs being things that can be filled by people with education no higher than HS, such as: collecting trash off the side of the road; loading blank license plates into a license plate machine and so on.
Once these barbarians have been sentenced to doing this kind of stuff for life, then their earnings from these jobs should be contributed to funding schools, hospitals, and other worthy social programmes.

Posted by Anonymous 2004-3-12 12:36:22 PM|| 2004-3-12 12:36:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 .com: Regards keeping them alive - I must ask why? To what end?
As to keeping these scum alive, there are at least 2 good reasons. Like Bulldog said " I am sure that a life wasted behind bars would provide more of a deterrent than a glorious martyrdom." there's that reason. The reason I believe to keep these scumbags alive is: Make these pieces of trash work for the rest of their miserable lives doing menial stuff. Make 'em contribute back to the society(ies) they've tried to or have damaged. Possible jobs being things that can be filled by people with education no higher than HS, such as: collecting trash off the side of the road; loading blank license plates into a license plate machine and so on.
Once these barbarians have been sentenced to doing this kind of stuff for life, then their earnings from these jobs should be contributed to funding schools, hospitals, and other worthy social programmes.

Posted by Anonymous 2004-3-12 12:37:46 PM|| 2004-3-12 12:37:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#76 Sorry about the 3 repeat posts. My computer kept giving me an error msg, so I had to reload this discussion thread. When I did, there were 4 copies of my post.

Posted by Anonymous 2004-3-12 12:39:51 PM|| 2004-3-12 12:39:51 PM|| Front Page Top

13:03 lyot
12:39 Anonymous
12:37 Anonymous
12:36 Anonymous
12:36 Anonymous
12:36 Anonymous
04:00 Howard UK
00:10 .com
00:08 11A5S
23:59 CrazyFool
23:52 CrazyFool
23:42 Anonymous2U
23:42 tu3031
23:39 Anonymous2U
23:39 tu3031
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23:24 John F. Kerry
23:21 GK
23:19 Sherry
23:18 tu3031
23:10 Fred
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23:03 Aakash
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