Article

2003-03-05 Iraq

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Posted by Murat 2003-03-05 11:57 am|| || Front Page|| [11129 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 It is actually both laughable and sad to read people associate the US with imperialism. If anything our problem is our deep latent isolationism. We didn't get troops into Bosnia at all (just air strikes) even though it would have saved lives, simply because we hate the thought of US boots on foreign soil. Similarly, we should have had more troops in Afganistan but didn't because of the same thought. Similarly, we didn't intervene in Haiti, in Zimbabwe, in Ruanda, even though we could have prevented human catastrophe, simply because of our distaste for foreign involvement.

Posted by mhw 3/5/2003 7:16:51 AM|| 3/5/2003 7:16:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Murat, if the US were half the imperialists you make them out to be, Turkey would be a US slave state and you'd be sitting in a re-education camp contemplating your dinner bowl of maggot-and-rat-feces stew. But you're not, and we're not, so kindly stop the hyperbole, ok?

Posted by jrosevear 3/5/2003 10:16:37 AM|| 3/5/2003 10:16:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Please, if the US were truly imperial we would care not a whit how the Turkish parliament voted. As it is the US will respect Turkey's decision and work around them rather than roll over them.

For the war planners Turkey's decision is at worst a speed bump. In time the decision will be understood to be far worse for the Turks than for the Americans; they will bear all the costs of conflict without the support they would have received. They will also have much less clout when the post-war restructuring gets underway. Democracy includes the right to make poor choices.

Posted by GKarp 2003-03-05 03:42:43|| 2003-03-05 03:42:43|| Front Page Top

#4 Gkarp- Whether Turkey supports it or not it will cost anyway, thatâs not the real point. I took this piece from Jim Lobe because it is describing very well how hawks regard some allies as a cat in the bag that can be rented for a few lousy dollars. If this is not an imperial view, then what is? Even the UN and legality are completely ignored by the hawks, which IMO are not really good moral values in world opinion and are degenerating the just cause. It could be translated as failure of US foreign policy.

Posted by Murat 2003-03-05 04:11:45|| 2003-03-05 04:11:45|| Front Page Top

#5 To me, it seems the US gvt is a bit pissed about Turkey's national policy diverging from its own foreign interests. Nothing imperial here, quite the contrary, just a long-time US ally demonstrating its sovereignty, and another example of the vacuity of the "hyper power" spooky tales. Btw, Murat, nobody accused Turkey of not being a real democracy, and, yes, there is some irony here.

Posted by Anonymous 2003-03-05 04:21:49|| 2003-03-05 04:21:49|| Front Page Top

#6 Murat,

South Korea isn't that good of an example of American disrespect for local democracy. The anti-American demonstrations in South Korea vanished very quickly once the South Koreans began to hear Americans saying that we would be perfectly happy to leave. And in fact, most of the "O.K., let's pick up and go" talk was coming from the "hawks".

As for the Turkey's decision not to support a US invasion of Iraq -- well, obviously, the US will give Turkey a chance to reconsider, and then will accept its ultimate decision. Of course, there will be a definite downside to that decision for Turkey. I noticed an almost audible sigh of relief from many commentators here in the US when negotiations feel through with Turkey. There was a real and growing worry that a deal with Turkey would be at the expense of the Kurds, for whom their is considerable -- and growing -- sympathy.

I'll close by saying that I really respect your faith in democracy and the right of self-determination. I just wish you were willing to extend it to allowing the Iraqi people the opportunity to enjoy the same.

Posted by Patrick Phillips 2003-03-05 04:43:10|| 2003-03-05 04:43:10|| Front Page Top

#7 There is something odd about US foreign policy, I mean if you want something you take care about public relations. I bet when Bush or Powell had visited Turkey and gave a small speech in the parliament things would have gone pretty much different. Instead we see Powell lifting up his phone and dictating they are in a hurry and need an answer within 24hours. One should ask whatâs wrong here, I personally think the US foreign policy shows a real poor performance and thatâs maybe the main reason the US is starting to feel so much reluctance by allies.

Posted by Murat 2003-03-05 04:58:33|| 2003-03-05 04:58:33|| Front Page Top

#8 "Even the UN and legality are completely ignored by the hawks, which IMO are not really good moral values in world opinion and are degenerating the just cause."

Guess I've been halllucinating every time I think I've seen the US representatives at the UN over the past few months, then. If you're talking legal technicalities, Murat, there's nothing stopping the US, or anybody, taking military action against Iraq for its continual failure to disarm as was stipulated as part of the UN-brokered ceasefire conditions at the end of GW1 (Iraq is in material breach of resolution 687 (resolution 1441)). It would be great if more countries were as willing to enforce UN resolutions as the US. Please let's stick to the facts and not start throwing ludicrously false accusations around.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-03-05 05:02:25|| 2003-03-05 05:02:25|| Front Page Top

#9 Bulldog- read "hawks", I was talking about hawks, of course there are US representatives at the UN

Posted by Murat 2003-03-05 05:16:35|| 2003-03-05 05:16:35|| Front Page Top

#10 Don't you regard the Bush admin as hawks then? They seem to have given the UN a fair chance to put its "resolutions" into action. If you're talking about more extreme hawks, why? There's always a spectrum of opinion where opinions are allowed.

Let's face it, the UN is a seriously flawed organisation, a club ostensibly for the betterment of humanity, yet which allows any murdering dictatorship have a voice in its forum. I don't consider myself to be a bird of any particular variety, I'm a realist. If the UN is failing to improve the world situation because it can be held to ransom by corrupt and/or cynical elements acting with selfish motives, what's the good of it?

Posted by Bulldog 2003-03-05 05:28:08|| 2003-03-05 05:28:08|| Front Page Top

#11 "If this is not an imperial view, then what is?"

An empire does not rent its vassel states.

One thing I think Murat is missing is that the UN, legality, and democracy, are all means to an end, not an end unto itself. Each of these have serious flaws, and can be perverted toward other ends. The seizing of a house, or the torture of a suspect can be completely legal, yet still immoral. It can be voted upon and approved by a majority, and even come with the UN approval. None of that makes it moral, or assures that it will accomplish the goals desired.

Once the means are no longer working toward the desired goal, to stick with such means is rather silly. A majority can be just as wrong as a minority. And both the US and Turkey will do what is in their own percieved best interests, as equals on the world stage. You don't want to help, fine, don't. But don't stop us from helping ourselves.

You talk about hurt feelings, we're talking about removing a threat to our lives. When we succeed, you can live long enough to get over it, or hold a grudge. Your choice.

Posted by Ben 2003-03-05 05:29:36|| 2003-03-05 05:29:36|| Front Page Top

#12 I think a major problem here is that US foreign policy is in the hands of the last of the Cold Warriors. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, the problem is that one did have the simplicity of dealing with an obviously threatening situation in those days and it was an easier "sell" to get action from a given government.

If we're returning to pre-Cold War diplomatic norms, it's time to cultivate a little more sophistication and not pretend that brute force will carry all before it.

Give this to our critics, the administration is larded with people who find it hard to believe that culture and history are meaningful topics and who are indifferent to appearences.

Posted by Hiryu 2003-03-05 06:47:51|| 2003-03-05 06:47:51|| Front Page Top

#13 Murat it seems to me that The U.N.'s reluctince to enforce it's own resolutions has already doomed it's existance.If the U.N can not/will not enforce it's resolutions then strict adherence to"International Law"is pointless.
If Turkey does not change it's mind,then it has no right to any say as to what happens in post- Saddam Iraq.Nor do they have any right to say what happens in Kurdish Iraq.

Posted by raptor 2003-03-05 06:56:42|| 2003-03-05 06:56:42|| Front Page Top

#14 Good points Hiryu, but as a non-American I think someimes you could be forgiven for not recgnising the value of the American can-do attitude, confusing it with reckless impetuosity. There are parts of the globe that would really benefit from a vigorous shake-up and an injection of fresh ideas. Islamic terrorism is a manifestation of a culture railing against the changing world and refusing to adapt, and there are many people who could do with taking a more relaxed view of history and culture.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-03-05 07:08:03|| 2003-03-05 07:08:03|| Front Page Top

#15 Oh câmon raptor, these are old fashioned clichÃ© blackmail talks: if you are not with us, you are against us â if you donât act with us you wonât have a say in Iraq - if you donât support us, you support terror bla bla bla bla, whatâs the next: The UN is in full support of Saddam perhaps? Whatâs the point you are defending here, some are stating resolution 1441. Is the US dismissing the UN against a UN resolution in defending a UN resolution against the UN? Or is it the nose of higher moral values what are defended here?

Posted by Murat 2003-03-05 07:13:57|| 2003-03-05 07:13:57|| Front Page Top

#16 It is actually both laughable and sad to read people associate the US with imperialism. If anything our problem is our deep latent isolationism. We didn't get troops into Bosnia at all (just air strikes) even though it would have saved lives, simply because we hate the thought of US boots on foreign soil. Similarly, we should have had more troops in Afganistan but didn't because of the same thought. Similarly, we didn't intervene in Haiti, in Zimbabwe, in Ruanda, even though we could have prevented human catastrophe, simply because of our distaste for foreign involvement.

Posted by mhw 2003-03-05 07:16:51|| 2003-03-05 07:16:51|| Front Page Top

#17 Murat - deja vu? Another article whose main thread, along with your commentary, is that the no vote by the Turkish parliament is due to US ineptitude, pressure, imperialism, arrogance, etc. The US is not imperialistic - it will abide by Turkey's decision if it votes no again. As noted above the UN has become a useless organization (think of the Senate in Star Wars which forms commitees while planets are being blown up). And your 24hr demand comment is refuted by the article itself which notes that Wolfewitz was talking to Turkey about troops in December while the vote was taken in March - Turkey must have known the US would need a definitive answer at some point. As for the Koreas, as noted above SK changed their tune very quickly when the US hawks said the US might pull out. For NK Bush is simply not following the appeasement approach of Clinton which obviously worked so well.
As I said the other day I consider Turkey an ally and the US will abide by Turkey's decision but to blame Turkey's very short-sighted decision on the US just doesn't cut it.

Posted by AWW 2003-03-05 07:59:55|| 2003-03-05 07:59:55|| Front Page Top

#18 "Indeed, the failure to grasp political and cultural sensitivities of foreign governments.. "

Apparently that's preferable to the failure to grasp the reality posed by WMD in the hands of Sadaam. This article makes clear the view of those who believe it is preferable to allow the horrific repression of the Iraqi people and eventual WMD blackmail than for the US to inadequately kiss the hind flank of our "allies" as we ask for their help.

That's about all the opposition in France, Turkey and others have come down to. They oppose the processTM - the depth of the bow, the number of kisses, waiting the appropriate time to discuss business after drinking the tea. All of this is more important than the fact that an opposition's 12 year old is being raped before she gets to watch them murder her father. Just a yawn for these folks - "a failure to grasp the cultural sensitivities". It seems the bottom line is we shouldn't help these people - not because we aren't sensitive enough to their suffering, but too insensitive their cultural sensitivities. How sad and void of humanity is that?

Posted by becky 2003-03-05 08:35:17|| 2003-03-05 08:35:17|| Front Page Top

#19 How much of the world fails to grasp the political and cultural sensitivity of America? France and Germany certainly have. There is a price to be paid for that insensitivity.

Posted by Anonymous 2003-03-05 09:03:19|| 2003-03-05 09:03:19|| Front Page Top

#20 Bulldog-

Completely agree, and cannot believe more people do not understand this. So many in the international community pleaded the US to bring their case for war through the UN, or else the UN would lose legitimacy. We did that, we passed a UNANIMOUS security Council resolution, and clearly stated there would be consequences for non-compliance.

Now, Iraq is non-compliant and the UN is balking at doing anything about it. The US continues to bring its case through the UN as best it can, but the UN STILL BALKS!

We gave the UN a chance to prove its relevance, but it squandered it.

Disclaimer: I am not an expert

Posted by mjh 2003-03-05 09:15:02|| 2003-03-05 09:15:02|| Front Page Top

#21 Murat, old chap, how many Kurds has your Government killed today?

Posted by Brian 2003-03-05 09:35:13|| 2003-03-05 09:35:13|| Front Page Top

#22 I think the statement, "You're either with us or against us," should be amended to read:

You're either with us, against us, or you're for sale.

Turkey is certainly in that last column, and thanks to that creaky, castrating, waffling, bureaucratic bunghole called "the United Nations", Guinea, Cameroon, Chile, and Mexico are as well.

mjh--I agree. The UN squandered its chance to prove its relevance.

Posted by Dar Steckelberg 2003-03-05 09:54:20|| 2003-03-05 09:54:20|| Front Page Top

#23 Please tell me why this is a loss for us? The Turks are now limited in extending their influence in Kurdistan, and they have little opportunity to influence the end result when we are done with Iraq. Iraq has now spent the past 3 months staging supplies and troops to answer a threat which appears to no longer exist, and now they have to decamp and redeploy.(maybe, the Iraqis might think its a trick and keep them there anyway, but that is also a good thing)

On the public relations front, the US is seen as respecting the wishes of a brother democracy, no matter how distasteful to the US. Turkey gains in stature in the region, which serves our purposes further down the road.

On the financial front, we save 30 billion dollars, which could go directly to the founding of the 'Independant Republic of Kurdistan".

On the strategy front, How do we know we were really planning on using ground troops from Torkey anyway? Look at a map, the last place I'd want to put heavy ground troops and their supply lines is in that kind of mountainous territory.

Where we end up after all this is with a Turkey dedicated to not going anywhere, not providing a haven for runaway Iraqis, and unwilling to extend its influence over the area. Turkey now has enough to defend itself,so it doesnt feel compelled to take action. They havent denied us use of their airspace, so we can still use it to provide support of a kind if necessary.

I think its a mistake to use the strategy used in the previous gulf war in this one. The idea that we were going to come barreling down in tanks and heavy armament from Turkey, never seemed very likely to me. Airdrops and captured airbridges maybe, but no "Barbarossa II"

Posted by Frank Martin 2003-03-05 10:09:06|| [varifrank.blogspot.com] 2003-03-05 10:09:06|| Front Page Top

#24 Brian, old chap, I think Turkey needs a few thousand years to reach the numbers that the US killed the last few decades.

Posted by Murat 2003-03-05 10:10:12|| 2003-03-05 10:10:12|| Front Page Top

#25 Murat, if the US were half the imperialists you make them out to be, Turkey would be a US slave state and you'd be sitting in a re-education camp contemplating your dinner bowl of maggot-and-rat-feces stew. But you're not, and we're not, so kindly stop the hyperbole, ok?

Posted by jrosevear 2003-03-05 10:16:37|| 2003-03-05 10:16:37|| Front Page Top

#26 Jeez - was I ever wrong - I saw the Subject line: "Democracy Pricks.." and thought another Canadian MP had committed a faux pas....

Posted by Frank G 2003-03-05 10:22:38|| 2003-03-05 10:22:38|| Front Page Top

#27 I think Murat means it would take Turkey a thousand years to save so many lives as the US has by sacrificing those of their own in the last century.

Never before has there been a country with such overwhelming power and so much restraint as the US. We respected the wishes of the Turkish parliament, and have not and will not roll our tanks over that vote. An Imperialist country would never have offered the incentive package in the first place, nor would they have respected the Turkish parliament.

That the Istanbul Exchange was down 12% on the very same day as that vote seems an odd coincidence. Maybe the forces of moderation (e.g. those who earn an income and have a stake in the Turkish Exchange) are realizing that Turkey is on a decline into Islamist style governance and would like to take their money where enlightened self interest trumps knee-jerk anti-Americanism.

It's a quid pro quo, the US is criticized as an Imperialist for offering the incentive package in return for Turkish assistance. Well, methinks they won't have to worry in the future.
(Note: the US STILL supports NATO upholding its responsibility to defend Turkey from an attack)

Murat, however I feel about your views, I have to give you credit for inspiring discussion.

Disclaimer: I am not an expert

Posted by mjh 2003-03-05 10:28:13|| 2003-03-05 10:28:13|| Front Page Top

#28 Actually, this is probably about Turkish imperialism if you want to believe Stratfor. The claim being that Ankara is doing their damdest to avoid having American troops in the north and thus prevent their grab of the oil fields.

What would be amusing is if the current Turkish government manages to tick off Brussels AND Washington sufficiently so as to be diplomatically isolated.

Posted by Hiryu 2003-03-05 10:32:12|| 2003-03-05 10:32:12|| Front Page Top

#29 For all the readers except one:
go to Yahoo or whatever and search for
ARMENIANS GENOCIDE
The results will tell you everything you need to know about this noble country called Turkey. They did it again with the Kurds and they will do it again if allowed. BTW, if you search with attention you will find that Hitler was so in love with their methods and so deeply inspired...
It's' strange that we allow these guys to insult us all the time. In two or three thousand years anyway they will become civilized too..

Posted by Poitiers 2003-03-05 10:39:56|| 2003-03-05 10:39:56|| Front Page Top

#30 Hitchens, of all people, has an excellent article on the past humanitarian horrors of Turkey and why we should cut them off and let them go. It's here:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2079633/

Posted by jrosevear 2003-03-05 10:50:35|| 2003-03-05 10:50:35|| Front Page Top

#31 An (of course) very naive proposal from an Old European:

The Security Council votes the following:

"Recognizing that Iraq has, apart from minor and insignificant concessions, not yet complied with resolution 687 and 1441 (plus 15 others)

Decides to state a deadline of [insert date] until which Iraq is required to be entirely free of chemical and biological weapons plus missiles exceeding the range of 150 km as required in resolution 687.
Decides that if Iraq fails to meet this deadline all necessary means including immediate military action will be authorized without further resolutions needed
Decides that if UN inspectors declare at any time before said deadline that Iraq is not fully cooperating with UN inspections and continues to mislead inspections or withhold information about the whereabouts of WMD the Security Council automatically declares Iraq to be in material breach of UN resolutions [insert numbers] and authorizes immediate military action."

This resolution should be voted 14:1 (forget the Syrian suckers). All nations pledge financial support for the US forces remaining in the Gulf until that date. If after that deadline military action is necessary, all nation pledge their support for this and the subsequent rebuilding of Iraq.

Every 2 weeks UN inspector Hans Blix should be required to affirm that Iraq is fully cooperating. If we don't hear the word "fully", it's material breach.
This should have been the text of resolution 1441 already of course.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-03-05 10:56:13|| 2003-03-05 10:56:13|| Front Page Top

#32 If Murat can post the same article over and over again, I can surely relink this cartoon that about sums it up.

Posted by someone 2003-03-05 11:39:15|| 2003-03-05 11:39:15|| Front Page Top

#33 There is something odd about US foreign policy, I mean if you want something you take care about public relations. I bet when Bush or Powell had visited Turkey and gave a small speech in the parliament things would have gone pretty much different. Instead we see Powell lifting up his phone and dictating they are in a hurry and need an answer within 24hours. One should ask whatâs wrong here, I personally think the US foreign policy shows a real poor performance and thatâs maybe the main reason the US is starting to feel so much reluctance by allies.

I didn't realize making a phone call was bad foreign policy.
Is this freakin' kindergarden? Does Turkey want teacher to come over and give them the 30 billion dollar cookie in person?
How about a nice Barney doll stuffed with 15 billion more?

Foreign policy does not equal ass-kissing.

Posted by grillmaster 2003-03-05 12:09:17|| [hippiesr4bbqing.blogspot.com] 2003-03-05 12:09:17|| Front Page Top

#34 The idea that insufficient attention was paid Turkish sensitivity is a foolish idea. Former Sec of State Warren Christopher believed in the 'show them attention' theory. He visited Syria more often then most grown up men visit their mom. He ended with squat.

Posted by mhw 2003-03-05 12:28:17|| 2003-03-05 12:28:17|| Front Page Top

#35 I think Murat has a point.
It might have been cheaper and more effective to send Powell or Armitage to address the Turkish Parliament.
I fear our frustration with Chiraq may be spilling over into other relationships. Too much emotion.

While emotion has a central role in deciding what is important, it often gets in the way of actually getting the job done.

Posted by Dishman 2003-03-05 12:33:55|| 2003-03-05 12:33:55|| Front Page Top

#36 Frank Martin:

"On the strategy front, How do we know we were really planning on using ground troops from Torkey anyway? Look at a map, the last place I'd want to put heavy ground troops and their supply lines is in that kind of mountainous territory"

A strong US force in the north allows for a political blitzkreig strategy. Imagine the US forces racing south from Turkey, and north from Kuwait, swiftly capturing the important oil fields, and liberating the cities of Basra, Mosul, Kirkuk etc. The images of Kurds and Shia celebrating the arrival of the US will be invaluable, politically to the US, and may lead to a coup of sorts against Saddam in the Baghdad area. Such a politico-blitz is much harder without rapid success in the north. Without the US there, in strength, one can imagine a PR debacle as Turkish troops invade the north and start fighting the Kurds for control of Kirkuk amid burning oilwells (set off by retreating Iraqis).

z

Posted by ziphius 2003-03-05 13:27:49|| 2003-03-05 13:27:49|| Front Page Top

#37 Murat, we've heard the same complaint from the Euros, we're not flying.

Powell doesn't like to fly. That's why he phones.

He's not Bubba, and a phone call certainly costs less. Of course, Turkey is State's FU (quelle surprise), so he should take the blame.

Posted by Anonymous 2003-03-05 14:05:22|| 2003-03-05 14:05:22|| Front Page Top

#38 I know I'm out on a limb here, but it just doesnt seem to me that we would have left such a key operational decision undecided before committing to a strategy. I think that the Turkey situation serves us just as well as a feignt as is does an actual invasion.

I think weve already got people on the ground in kurdistan. I dont see us driving into Iraq from Turkey as I do us grabbing an airbase, and using it as an airbridge to ship in troops and supplies, but I also expect it to be over well before the first tank of ours lands in Northern Iraq. Im working under the idea that this is going to be much more like the "Panama/Noriega Operation", than Gulf War II. The target here is Saddam Hussien and about 15 mustacheoed relatives, not capitol cities.

Posted by Frank Martin 2003-03-05 14:12:31|| [varifrank.blogspot.com] 2003-03-05 14:12:31|| Front Page Top

#39 But Murat, our Parliament, the Congress, approved so much of the murder. I would ask if your Parliament did the same, but the Generals have an unfortunate way of intervening in the Political System. How's the currency trading? Have the French sent over the SDRs to prevent a meltdown yet?

Posted by Brian 2003-03-05 16:02:34|| 2003-03-05 16:02:34|| Front Page Top

#40 Many of you have raised valid and well-argued points on this topic. You have completely debunked the irrational idea that the US is an imperialist nation trying to subdue all others to its will using logic and facts.

But Murat is not listening.

Murat does not care about the logic and facts of opposing points of view, Murat will continue to post the same view over and over because Murat only looks for facts that support his view and ignores or underestimates the relevance of the others.

This is called 'confirmation bias'. Everything that confirms Murats views will be actively saught, perhaps undue importance placed on minor facts, and Murat will absorb it all as evidence for his/her view.

Everything contradicting that view will either be ignored, it's relevance undervalued, or it will be as simple as Murat failing to seek information that contradicts his/her position.

Either way, Murat is going to stick to this view no matter what evidence you have. Ditto for most of the appeasement protestors. They have made up their minds often on emotional grounds and will stick to their position now forever.

Posted by anon 2003-03-05 17:32:05|| 2003-03-05 17:32:05|| Front Page Top

#41 To True German Ally, your proposal makes sense. My concern is that any attack will have to be made with the troops in MOPP4. Those suits are HOT, so hot that training in those suits was pretty limited during my time at FT Hood. That was just in the Texas heat. I spent 1996, August to mid-Dec., in Kuwait. I will never forget that heat. One of my photos from that deployment is of one of those circular thermometers that only goes up tp 120F. The needle has gone all the way around and is pointing straight down! Another picture is of the tie-dye design covering my brown T-shirt from saltsweat stains.
The longer we wait the hotter it gets. Plus the more dug in are the Rep. Guard troops and the more time Saddam has to prepare a "scorched earth" policy.
Still, your idea is better than what we have now. If it got the US enough political cover for finally getting Saddam it could be worth it.

Posted by Rifle308 2003-03-05 18:13:52|| 2003-03-05 18:13:52|| Front Page Top

#42 Gee whiz, long thread here.

Bulldog- Completely agree, and cannot believe more people do not understand this. So many in the international community pleaded the US to bring their case for war through the UN, or else the UN would lose legitimacy. We did that, we passed a UNANIMOUS security Council resolution, and clearly stated there would be consequences for non-compliance. Now, Iraq is non-compliant and the UN is balking at doing anything about it. The US continues to bring its case through the UN as best it can, but the UN STILL BALKS! We gave the UN a chance to prove its relevance, but it squandered it. Disclaimer: I am not an expert.

No, but you are completely correct. The U.N. not only gives dictators a platforms of legitimacy, but it stands idly by as tens of thousands are killed (Rwanda) or tortured (Iraq, Libya) or starved to death (N. Korea). The U.N. is completely incapable of making major decisions, let alone enforcing them. It should go the way of the league of nations.

Posted by jonesy 2003-03-05 18:27:57|| 2003-03-05 18:27:57|| Front Page Top

#43 True German Ally,
I suspect that's a lot closer to the one we originally attempted to get passed than the oft-reworded one that did pass.
... And just so you know (regarding a comment in another article). I wasn't alive when my country made the stupid choice about Germany. But I had a sore throat (from cheering) for a week after the Wall came down.

Posted by Kathy K 2003-03-05 18:38:05|| [site-essential.com/] 2003-03-05 18:38:05|| Front Page Top

#44 Rifle, I very much understand the climatic timetable. I think this resolution would just help everyone to "save face".
One major problem is Mr Blix. As long as we continue to let him babble about "Iraq making some progress but must do more" we won't get anywhere.
So instead of proposing a new resolution that seems bound to fail, lets invite Blixie back to the Security Council.
And let him answer one question: "Is Iraq fully complying, YES or NO?"
And if he refuses a clear answer we qualify this as a NO.
This can be accomplished in March. And I guess the next new moon is still cool enough.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-03-05 18:38:21|| 2003-03-05 18:38:21|| Front Page Top

#45 Kathy, thanks for the sore throat. Lets hope the Iraqis will enjoy the same soon.
I smelled disaster when I heard that Blix would assume the chief inspector job. I remember his hopeless blunder regarding the Chernobyl catastrophe and his Soviet ass kissing.
He should be sacked for incompetence if he isn't able to give a clear statement.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-03-05 18:45:08|| 2003-03-05 18:45:08|| Front Page Top

#46 The ultimate question for Murat is this: Would Mustafa Kemal support the course of action that Erdogan is dictating? Did Ataturk look at the polls when he reformed the language? When he implemented the plethora of Western reforms?

Where is the bravery of statesmanship? That's what hurts so much: Turkey, I'm not prepared to say is lacking the statesmanship, but is unwilling to show the leadership they've shown before. To France it's expectable, to Turkey it is a stab in the back.

Posted by Brian 2003-03-05 22:12:13|| 2003-03-05 22:12:13|| Front Page Top

#47 Later news is that members voted against the US because they thought that is the way the Army wanted the vote to go. The Army has come out in favor of the US staging from Turkey, and a new vote is scheduled.

Posted by John Anderson 2003-03-05 23:45:48|| 2003-03-05 23:45:48|| Front Page Top

#48 Hey,Murat
I seem to recall the Ottoman Empire(Turkey),and it's persecution of Christians and Jews,and what about the Austrian/German/Turk alliance in WW1.
Don'tcry that I'm bringing up ancient history,you brought history into this.

As to your blackmail accusation,not blackmail at all."Great rewards require great risk"if you do not share the risk you get none of the rewards.

Posted by raptor 2003-03-06 08:21:44|| 2003-03-06 08:21:44|| Front Page Top

01:48 jesse weir
02:33 Rocky
09:12 raptor
09:10 Dar Steckelberg
08:21 raptor
07:34 raptor
06:27 raptor
06:19 raptor
04:33 anon
04:15 anon
03:15 Doug C.
01:18 Anonymous
01:16 Anonymous
01:15 Anonymous
01:02 R. McLeod
00:42 RW
23:45 John Anderson
23:40 John Anderson
23:17 John Anderson
23:10 Bomb-a-rama
23:09 Fred
23:02 Bomb-a-rama
22:59 John Anderson
22:57 Frank G