Article

2007-02-13 Iraq

Terrorists Caught With Austrian Rifles Via Iran

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Elmaviger Flomorong2900 2007-02-13 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11131 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Drop "cluster munitions" on the Styer factory via Crusie Missle. No other act will send a realsitc message at our displeasure or the value we place on our fighters. Too bad not one of the craptards or cowards in Washington would do it but it ought to be done.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2007-02-13 00:41|| www.sockpuppetofdoom.com]">[www.sockpuppetofdoom.com] 2007-02-13 00:41|| Front Page Top

#2 Too many nice old buildings in Austria. Drop them on Iran instead.

Posted by Sholuns Throse5961 2007-02-13 04:24|| 2007-02-13 04:24|| Front Page Top

#3 Suprise-o-meter !

This , along with all the other findings point directly and unequivocally to Casus belli.

Posted by MacNails 2007-02-13 04:33|| 2007-02-13 04:33|| Front Page Top

#4 That alone is a casus belli.
That alone will not be enough to satisfy domestic nay-sayers, but then nothing will satisfy domestic naysayers. The only thing that will stop many of our domestic naysayers is a jihadi headsman's knife.
Besides immediate & massive reprisals against Iran, some type of action needs to be taken against Austria (won't happen). Call in the Austrian ambassador for talks at the White House (won't happen). At the very least, huge civil lawsuits by relatives of US troops killed by these weapons.(may happen). Seize a few millions of Austrian property in this country.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2007-02-13 06:19|| 2007-02-13 06:19|| Front Page Top

#5 Personal responsibility is the key. Steyr execs need the Gerald Bull treatment via those .50 cals. Through the window while humping their mistresses (or misters) would be ideal. Others will get the message. Reserve the cruise missiles for the Iranians.

Seize a few millions of Austrian property in this country.
Yes. Spread the pain. It was the Austrian government that approved the sale knowing they would be used to kill Americans. Hope the $15 million was worth it when the Austrians lose $15 billion in US sales. Start with raising tariffs.

Posted by ed 2007-02-13 07:05|| 2007-02-13 07:05|| Front Page Top

#6 The gun sale from Austria to Iran was LEGAL. Wrong, but legal. No bombs on Austria. But since the sale showed such poor judgement by the Steyr execs, one might assume they exhibit poor judgement in other parts of their lives, which should be exposed (so to speak) before they do more harm.
Sanctions to prevent arms sales to Iran should be enacted to make such transactions as this illegal. Then, to counteract the damage to the Austrian economy, and to a manufacturer of quality firearms, the restrictions on importing, purchasing and owning .50 cal weapons in the US should be modified.

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2007-02-13 07:19|| 2007-02-13 07:19|| Front Page Top

#7 The US protested the transfer of Austrian tech to Iran at the time. Legal or illegal, doesn't matter, GIs have been & will be killed by Austrian weaponry sold in full knowledge of how they would be used. Austria needs to pay for this hostile action, at least financially.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2007-02-13 07:50|| 2007-02-13 07:50|| Front Page Top

#8 Then, to counteract the damage to the Austrian economy, and to a manufacturer of quality firearms,

No. Worry about American lives and making an example. Destroy Austria's arms industry. Start by banning Glocks too.

Posted by ed 2007-02-13 08:06|| 2007-02-13 08:06|| Front Page Top

#9 For folks who may be considering an Austrian Glock, may I suggest Smith & Wesson M&P.

Posted by ed 2007-02-13 08:09|| 2007-02-13 08:09|| Front Page Top

#10 More slime from the NY Times: "Skeptics Doubt U.S. Evidence on Iran Action in Iraq"

Both Democratic and Republican officials on Capitol Hill said that while they do not doubt that the weapons are being used to attack American troops, and that some of those weapons are being shipped into Iraq from Iran, they are still uncertain whether the weapons were being shipped into Iraq on the orders of Irans leaders.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2007-02-13 08:12|| 2007-02-13 08:12|| Front Page Top

#11 For those who might want to send a personal message to our friends at Steyr:

http://www.steyrarms.com/index.php?id=20

Posted by DanNY 2007-02-13 08:19|| 2007-02-13 08:19|| Front Page Top

#12 I wonder if those Steyrs were shipped with Austrian-made Swarovski rifle scopes?

Posted by mrp 2007-02-13 08:27|| 2007-02-13 08:27|| Front Page Top

#13 The best message would be to encourage US citizens who are family members of those servicemen killed to file individual lawsuits against both the weapons manufacturer and the Austrian government in the EU Human Rights Court.

See how Austria and the EU like having their "peacefulness" and "neutrality" questioned on a daily basis for several years. Especially with the US State Department providing LOTS and LOTS of embarrassing information to show a pattern of supporting our enemies, bribery in EU politicians, arming terrorists and otherwise behaving in a treacherous and underhanded manner.

And since the EU newspapers would ignore it, broadcast it on VOA, and provide free copy to any newspaper that would publish it. Newspapermen are lazy bastards, and are more than glad to publish press releases.

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-02-13 09:00|| 2007-02-13 09:00|| Front Page Top

#14 "That alone is a casus belli."

Bullshit!
There is a very important aspect of this allegation that has been omitted from this article. There is no mention of Serial numbers or other identifiers to prove they are conclusively from the Iranian purchase. In short, it can only be considered speculation because there is always the distinct possibility they are Black Market arms. There are reasons why the Coalition has only hinted at Iranian weapon and technology transfers without supplying conclusive evidence. First has been political/diplomatic leverage. Call it the ole We know what your up to approachyou knowDiplo-Blackmail. Up to this point its hard to decipher its effectiveness but it appears the more direct allegation approach has been adopted in conjunction with the traditional open source leaks. The other hesitation in divulging specific information is they run the risk of compromising sources and methods. Something most experts agree is in limited supply in Iran. Is this allegation Possible? Yes. Probable? Hell yes! Casus belli? Not without proof.

Posted by DepotGuy 2007-02-13 09:53|| 2007-02-13 09:53|| Front Page Top

#15 Steyr sold at least 800 of these rifles to Iran in 2004. Avertised effective range is 1500 meters (~ 1 mile).

Posted by JohnQC 2007-02-13 10:02|| 2007-02-13 10:02|| Front Page Top

#16 Wellcome to the club. Israel been complaining to "international community" about things like this for decades.

Posted by gromgoru 2007-02-13 12:05|| 2007-02-13 12:05|| Front Page Top

#17 I believe that it is a simple matter to check the serial# on captured arms, to the serial # of arms sold to Iran.
The Austrians do keep such records don't they ?

Posted by J.D. Lux 2007-02-13 12:32|| 2007-02-13 12:32|| Front Page Top

#18 If Steyr sold 800 HS50s to the Iranians without serial numbers, that'd probably be a casus belli against Austria :)

In any case, even if the Steyr serial numbers were altered or filed off, there a numerous proven methods of recovering the original impressions.

(pdf file)
Recovering stamped impressions (worn or otherwise)

The firearm-relevant stuff is on the .pdf file page 4

Posted by mrp 2007-02-13 13:07|| 2007-02-13 13:07|| Front Page Top

#19 This crap will stop when the administration values the life of marines/soldiers more than terrorists.

Posted by anymouse">anymouse 2007-02-13 13:34|| 2007-02-13 13:34|| Front Page Top

#20 what he said.

Posted by Classical_Liberal 2007-02-13 14:06|| 2007-02-13 14:06|| Front Page Top

#21 While I'm certainly not happy about any of this--Austria supplying Iran or Iran supplying terrorists in Iraq--has there really been anything illegal or damning done here, and, if so, what recourse do we have?

I'm asking such because we (the US) have certainly supplied weapons and, at times, training to other movements around the world at various times. The mujahideen in Afghanistan after the Soviet invasion is just one example. I'm fairly certain the Soviets didn't appreciate us supplying the mujahideen with weapons and training, and now we're seeing Iran do the same to us in Iraq.

I'm not justifying their actions, but I know we've done the same in the past, so my question remains: what recourse do we have?

Posted by Dar">Dar 2007-02-13 14:12|| 2007-02-13 14:12|| Front Page Top

#22 "We" (the United States of America) = USSR?

I don't buy the moral equivalence argument for a second. The Iraqis have held several free and fair elections and they approved, by a wide margin, a national constitution. The Soviets simply invaded Aghanistan to prop up their puppet government.

The Iraqi "insurgents" and their IRG advisors are using Persian-supplied armaments to destroy an Iraqi government whose leaders were elected in free and fair elections. Americans, Iraqis and warriors deployed by their Coalition partners are dying to preserve democracy in Iraq.

Posted by mrp 2007-02-13 14:28|| 2007-02-13 14:28|| Front Page Top

#23 For me, the bad guy here is STEYR. They probably had a pretty good idea what the Iranians would do with these rifles and they sold them anyway. I read about the sale of these rifles in the June '06 issue of SOF magazine. The blurb on page 12, states that

"The United States recently slapped sanctions on nine companies caught supplying weapons to Iran. Six of them were Chinese. But the Austrian company was providing equipment most likely to end up in the hansds of terrorists attacking American troops. Steyr-Mannlicher insisted that the deal was legit. If Steyr-Mannlicher cannot get out from under the sanctions, it would not be able to sell goods inside the United States."

I say we start sending that excerpt to Congress and make sure that Steyr-Mannlicher is dead in this country!

Posted by Rob06">Rob06 2007-02-13 15:33|| 2007-02-13 15:33|| Front Page Top

#24 Just need lots of senseless street crimes to occur to STEYR executives and top salesmen.

Say muggings, strange car accidents and such.
Messages can be telegraphed.

Posted by 3dc 2007-02-13 16:35|| 2007-02-13 16:35|| Front Page Top

#25 We really need to begin Pavlov conditioning on EU biz. (after thinking back to EU weapons ships NV harbors during that war.)

Posted by 3dc 2007-02-13 16:38|| 2007-02-13 16:38|| Front Page Top

#26 Dar, we did not do the same thing. You are missing the point entirely. The Soviet Union was NOT an ally. Austria supposedly is.

Posted by Sgt. D.T. 2007-02-13 16:43|| 2007-02-13 16:43|| Front Page Top

#27 Austria has never been an ally, a forced neutral at best. Altho I give them credit for blowing open their border in 1989.

Posted by Shipman 2007-02-13 17:21|| 2007-02-13 17:21|| Front Page Top

#28 The pres could declare Austria a member of the Axis of Evil. Approach NATO with the proposition of declaration of war against Austria, and necessary sanctions.

Posted by wxjames 2007-02-13 17:57|| 2007-02-13 17:57|| Front Page Top

#29 The point of my question is: What can we do about it? Does what they did violate any international law/treaty? Do we have any sort of recourse?

I'm not advocating or even defending what they did. I am asking if supplying arms to another country like this is illegal or, as some claim, a casus belli.

Third-parties have been supplying one side or another of a conflict since time immemorial. Other than be upset about it, what can we really do?

Posted by Dar">Dar 2007-02-13 18:56|| 2007-02-13 18:56|| Front Page Top

#30 Casus belli here refers to the link between the rifles and the Iranian government. There is a very good chance the exact weapon can be traced to the shipment of 800 last year.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2007-02-13 19:06|| 2007-02-13 19:06|| Front Page Top

#31 Dar, One thing we can do is remember this.
We once occupied Austria, and set them free, rather than behind the iron curtain. There will prolly be a next time, judging how Eurabia is declining, so we may once again occupy Austria.
Next time, we can demand a little phalking respect, and cooperation.

Posted by wxjames 2007-02-13 19:39|| 2007-02-13 19:39|| Front Page Top

#32 International law is whatever can be enforced.

Posted by gromgoru 2007-02-13 21:27|| 2007-02-13 21:27|| Front Page Top

#33 Remember when the Austrians got all their underwear in a knot when the Govenator permitted the legal execution of a convicted criminal. Now this. It's all about posing, nothing more.

As for proof. No need for a reason for war rather the Alabama Claims established the basis for diplo payback. Here is a case where if the equipment can be tag for death and destruction, then the US civil courts can act upon the behalf of the survivors. Since illegal combatants get standing, then the estates should also.

Posted by Procopius2k 2007-02-13 22:49|| 2007-02-13 22:49|| Front Page Top

23:43 Mike
23:38 Frank G
23:36 Frank G
23:28 buwaya
23:19 Robjack
22:50 eLarson
22:49 Procopius2k
22:39 Procopius2k
22:36 Angenter Crolugum3645
22:35 JosephMendiola
22:33 trailing wife
22:32 3dc
22:31 Zhang Fei
22:28 JosephMendiola
22:26 Remoteman
22:16 JosephMendiola
22:16 SwissTex
22:14 Raj
22:10 JosephMendiola
22:08 USN, ret.
22:05 USN, ret.
22:04 SwissTex
22:02 JosephMendiola
22:01 doc