Article

2004-02-04 Latin America

German Battleship to Be Raised in Uruguay

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Posted by Steve White 2004-02-04 12:52:27 AM|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I thought navel ships remained the property of the government they served even after they sunk. I know there are some German subs just off the coast of maine, but you are not supposed to dive them.

Posted by Anonymous 2004-2-4 1:14:22 AM|| 2004-2-4 1:14:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Technically, Uruguay can argue that the ship was "interrned" and under neutrality laws is now actually Uruguayan property. I'm not sure it will fly, but if you have ever tried to get justice south of the Rio Grande, you know what chance you have of winning in court. Short of a big bribe to the judge, practically zero.

Im not sure if the Graf Spee had any crew aboard when she was scuttled, if so, international law covers the presence of war graves. If I remember correctly, Capt. Langsdorff managed to get the entire crew off before she was scuttled. However, I could be wrong.

Other than selling one inch commemorative parts of the Hull on Ebay, I really doubt theres much left that anyone would recognize as a ship. Years ago( 1980's), they went back to recover one of the Deck Guns, and there wasnt a whole lot left of the wreck at that point. Im taken aback by the writer saying they had 'radar guns'. I wasnt aware of anyone anywhere having radar for naval gunnery in 1939.

Posted by Frank Martin 2004-2-4 2:13:02 AM|| 2004-2-4 2:13:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 The Graf Spee was abandoned before scuttling. Captain Langsdorff took only a skeleton crew out on her final voyage, leaving the bulk of his crew ashore. The captain and the skeleton got off before she blew up, just outside the harbor.

I watch too much History channel

Posted by Ben 2004-2-4 4:33:48 AM|| 2004-2-4 4:33:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Langsdorff wrapped himself in the Imperial flag before commiting sideways.

IMO a very pretty ship.

Posted by Shipman 2004-2-4 8:05:35 AM|| 2004-2-4 8:05:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Shipman--The Imperial flag, as in the WWI standard under the Kaiser? Or the Nazi flag?

Posted by Dar 2004-2-4 9:48:59 AM|| 2004-2-4 9:48:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 "early radar and what was then sophisticated sighting equipment for its 11-inch guns. "The radar was one of the first to be used in that era,"

This doesn't sound right to me. The Brits came up with the earliest radar and I think it was after 1939.

Posted by ruprecht 2004-2-4 10:07:15 AM|| 2004-2-4 10:07:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 ...Actually, Graf Spee was sold to salvors not long after her scuttling. The salvors turned out to be a front company for the Royal Navy, which ended up doing all the heavy salvage work then. But, in one of those weird things that always proves that History will eventually come back to bite you in the ass, the front company still owned her a few decades down range - and it was from them that Senor Bado purchased her. He owns Graf Spee fair, square and clear under maritime law.
Her crew was compltely evacuated before her scuttling, and the skeleton crew that Langsdorff used to get her out was evactuated as well, so strictly speaking, she isn't a war grave even though some of her crew were killed aboard her.
The problem with raising her is going to be this: it's not impossible, but it's damned unlikely. The ship was scrapped down to just below the water (she was actually blown into two pieces about a hundred feet back from the bow) and the rest has sunk into the mud with only a few feet showing above the mud. There is a LOT they can bring up, and all of it has historical value, but raising the entire ship is an effort of nightmarish proportions, especially as they have no idea what lies beneath the mud line. She may very well be broken in several pieces, and it won't be at all obvious until they get there.
One last note on the radars - IIRC, Graf Spee had a Seetakt rig installed. I've got pics of USS New York (BB-34) dated January '39 with an Naval Research Lab XAF radar mounted prominently on her bridge. Her sister USS Texas (BB-35) got an RCA-built CXZ at the same time. The USN's first ever seaborne radar was ascratchbuilt rig mounted aboard the destroyer USS Leary (DD-158) in early '37. The Germans had and used seaborne radars from the very beginning of the war.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2004-2-4 10:33:44 AM|| 2004-2-4 10:33:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 DAR The Kaiser's flag.

Posted by Shipman 2004-2-4 11:25:19 AM|| 2004-2-4 11:25:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Technically the Graf Spee was a battle cruisar not a battleship. Lighter armor and faster which is why when it got holed in Uragay it didn't fight. It was out amoured and outgunned.

Posted by David 2004-2-4 12:06:38 PM|| 2004-2-4 12:06:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Dave:

"Battlecruiser" is probably too strong a term for Spee and her sister "Panzerschiffes." When setting up a 1:2400 Atlantic scenario (in my undergraduate/Seapower II days) I used to consider a Panzerschiffe as the equivalent of a decent heavy cruiser for play balance purposes, and that worked out about right. The Spee is basically a slow cruiser (she was optimized for cruising range, not top speed) with good armor and a really heavy main battery (11" guns vs. the 8" guns which the Washington Treaty specified as the definition of a "heavy" cruiser).

Might be interesting to game out an encounter between Graf Spee and a Japanese Mogami or US Baltimore, just to see how it comes out. Dang! Where'd I put my miniatures? . . .

Posted by Mike 2004-2-4 12:18:35 PM|| 2004-2-4 12:18:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I don't know for sure about the Graf Spee, but the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau definitely had radar-controlled main guns in April 1940, as they used them to sink HMS Glorious despite the smoke screen.

It's possible they were referring to the 88mm AA guns as being radar-controlled.

Posted by Jackal 2004-2-4 12:54:51 PM|| [http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html] 2004-2-4 12:54:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Mike I've heard it said that the Graf Spee and sisters were actually the last of the weird breed.... the curious large armored cruiser.

Posted by Shipman 2004-2-4 1:05:40 PM|| 2004-2-4 1:05:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Jackal

There was no such thing as radr-controlled guns in April 1940. AFAIK The electronic components allowing to generate the high frequencies required in a radar small enough to fit on a ship (even a battleship) didn't exist be it in Germany or in Britain. They appeared in 1941

Posted by JFM 2004-2-4 1:17:46 PM|| 2004-2-4 1:17:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Shimpan:

Agreed. The WWI-era armoured cruiser would probably have evolved into something a lot like the Spee if the Washington Treaty hadn't limited cruisers to 10,000 tons displacement and 8" main guns.

Posted by Mike 2004-2-4 1:41:24 PM|| 2004-2-4 1:41:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Dave and others

The Graf Spee wasn't a battleship (usually eight guns of 15 inches, heavy armor), neither a battlecruiser (British style was same artillery than a battleship but less armor, German style ie Scharnhost and Geneisenau was relatively weak artillery, nine guns of eleven inches, but superb armor). The Graf Spee was a pocket battleship: a unit designed to raid merchant traffic, too fast for being intercepted by battle unit, far too powerful for a heavy cruiser: her six guns of eleven inches had a greater range and far more pucnch than the eight inches guns of heavy cruisers and while her armor wasn't enough to meet battleship fire it made her nearly impervious to eight inches guns of heavy cruisers.

And now about the death of the Graf Spee. The Graf Spee didn't sink as many as nine merchants but as few as nine merchants: the score was disappointing. Because of this it headed for the juicier but also more patrolled waters around Mar del Plata. There she was intercepted by the heavy cruiser Exeter and the two light cruisers Ajax and Achilles. The Exeter was put out of action in minutes but she was unable to do the same to Ajax and Achilles and Graf Spee ended retiring to Montevideo. The question is why. British agents who watched her at Montevideo only noticed minor dammage, and she was certainly in better shape than the Ajax and Achilles who had lost part of their main artillery. Another speculation is that Graf Spee had used most of her ammo. Anyway the British immediately sent the heavy cuiser Cumberland to support the Ajax and Achilles while trying to delay the departure of Graf Spee through departures of British merchants since by international law Uruguay could not let Graf Spee leave until 24 hours later. The goal being to give time to heavier units to arrive to the scene.
However the Uruguayans told the British that no further departures would be allowed since the Graf Spee's had notified her intention to leave. There is little doubt than an intact and high on ammo Graf Spee would have easily brushed away the Cumberland and the two light cruisers but the British tricked the Germans into thinking that the carrier Ark Royal and a battleship were on the verge to arrive in the area. And even an intact Graf Spee would have had no chance against a battleship or battlecruiser.

At this point Graf Spee's captain sent a telegram to Berlin exposing the desperate situation (including the presence of the two imaginary heavy units), scuttled the ship and committed suicide.

Posted by JFM 2004-2-4 2:38:49 PM|| 2004-2-4 2:38:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Excellent--thanks for the history lesson, gentlemen!

Posted by Dar 2004-2-4 3:13:26 PM|| 2004-2-4 3:13:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 JFM my theory is that Langsdorff did all that honor required in the way of battle and did what he thought was right for his crew and his country (in the long run). I think he done rite.

Getting this down Faisal?

Posted by Shipman 2004-2-4 3:42:39 PM|| 2004-2-4 3:42:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 To JFM - *quiet cough* Laddy, radar was in use as early as 1938. What YOU may be thinking of is the use of the centimeter range radars that were made possible by the British invention of the cavity magnitron. To avoid going into a lengthy (and boring) technical discussion, at that time, two radar systems were being used and developed. The Germans had a VERY nice long wave radar system that they'd pushed to a high state of reliability. But the wavelength was so long that it couldn't spot anything smaller than a large plane or a small ship.

The cavity magnitron, which the Brits invented and the Americans mass-produced, allowed the use of much shorter wavelengths, and therefore a much finer resolution. With it, you could spot something as small as a periscope or a snorkle.

German scientists at that time thought this was impossible, even after having captured samples of the cavity magnitron. They'd based their reputations on the impossibility of successfully generating and using such short wavelengths, and now that came back to haunt them.

In fact, history records the German navy going to rediculous lengths to try and insulate their periscopes and snorkles against heat, as they were absolutely CERTAIN that centimeter wave radar was impossible, and that left only infra-red detection as the way their subs were (supposedly) being spotted. They blew nearly $100 million US on the project, as I recall. After the war, several german researchers were introduced to the cavity magnitron, and given an opportunity to actually see it in action. Their reaction was much like an 19th century doctor faced with the germ theory of disease. "Mine Gott! If this is true, we'll have to build entirely NEW reputations! All the hard effort, all the study, for nothing! Useless! We'll actually have to go back to WORK! AHHHHHHHG!"

*evil snicker*

Ed.

Posted by Ed Becerra 2004-2-4 4:08:34 PM|| 2004-2-4 4:08:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Ed Becerra

The high frequencies allowed by the cavity magnetron brought two things. First: a drastic reduction in the size of the aerials. Remember the big radar towers in Battle of Britain? Those wouldn't have fit in a ship.

Second: it allowed a far greater precision. British radars during battle of England gave only a very general indication of altitude ad location of targets and if my memory . Basically the fighters were led into the zone and were expected top acquire the ennemy virtualy unassisted for precise altitude and direction. 1940 radar was for too imprecise for gunnery.

Germans had decent radars in the Kamhumber line by 1941. But the system (one radar controlling one fighter) was totally overhelmed by the "1 thousand bombers" raid over Koln. By 1944 German night fighters had radars. I have been unable to find info about their wavelengths

By the way: Japanese carriers were time and again surprised by American planes, while there was never a time where American carriers were caught flat footed like the Japanese at Midway (some wre surprised due to faulty IFF procedures never in the same magnitude than the Japanese). So when you think in Coral Sea, Midway or Santa Cruz battles think in the British.

Posted by JFM 2004-2-4 4:54:29 PM|| 2004-2-4 4:54:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 OK, here goes:

James Dunnigan and Albert Nofi, "Dirty Little Secrets of WWII" state that the Graf Spee was the first warship in the world to have radar in 1937, the "FMG 39G (gO)" set.

"Graf Spee," by I can't remember whom (I read it years ago), commented that the vibrations from the diesel engine would knock the radar set out.

"Battleships of World War Two," by M. J. Whitley, states that the only modifications to the Graf Spee after its commissioning before its loss was the addition of radar.

So, I think that issue is settled.

Now, the radar-controlled guns is another matter. According to Conway's, the primary German naval radar was the "Seetakt" system, which operated at 80cm (about 375 MHz) and was only useful for navigation and search, as Mr. Becerra mentions in #18.

Oh. Wait. Radar World States that the Spee had an experimental 60 cm (500 MHz) set.

As against that, several combat histories state that the Ardent and Acasta made smoke to defend the Glorious against G&S, but it didn't affect their radar-controlled guns. Again, this was 1940 against 1939, and the Scharnhorst class were much larger and more valuable, thus could have held a radar set that the Deutchland class could not hold, or were too low priority to hold.

This site explicitly gives the Graf Spee gunnery radar.

Posted by Jackal 2004-2-4 9:29:28 PM|| [http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html] 2004-2-4 9:29:28 PM|| Front Page Top

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