Article

2005-01-26 Syria-Lebanon-Iran

Iranian youth rebelling against Khomeinism

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Dan Darling 2005-01-26 1:05:01 AM|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 We need to continue to support these people. Not just through VOA but through other channels as well. My Iranian friends tell me it is a mistake to overtly attack Iran, not because of their military but because we would alienate a population that has some of the highest opinions of the US in the World. They tell me the number could be as high as a 75% approval rating. The polls of course would never be conducted or completely doctored for the opposite effect. Tyrannical Regimes are doomed to fail but in many cases require outside intervention. An attack on Iran could polarize these friendly forces against us and the end result would be disasterous. I originally agreed with military strikes on Isafan and the other facilities, but my opinion has changed after this dialogue. More covert action is required. I'm not sure if sanctions are the answer either because the only ones to suffer will be our allies in Iran not the Mullahs.
I'm open to opposing arguements. Comments welcome.

Posted by Rightwing 2005-01-26 9:26:00 AM|| 2005-01-26 9:26:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 "in the end, the 1970s Islamic revolution seems certain to be undone by its own children."

If this turns out to be true in the long run, this represents not only the failure of the Iranian revolution, it also represents the failure of a central idea of islam that religious law must be enforced by the state. Not only is such a practice doomed to be flouted by those who don't feel conscience bound to observe it, it actually results in an increase in the very behaviors it is meant to prohibit by driving it further underground out of fear of truly draconian punishments, by decreasing respect for the law in general and by increasing corruption as people look for ways around the law. It also increases despair and addiction.

The problem with islam is what happens when it succeeds in obtaining a majority which then institutes islamic law. I wonder how many times muslims will have to fail in their attempts to either institute or maintain sharia before they finally admit that the whole idea of mixing religion with "every aspect of life" as they say, including government, is a bad idea.

Posted by peggy 2005-01-26 9:55:28 AM|| 2005-01-26 9:55:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Probably the best way to fight the regime is to:

1.increase the broadcasting power of Persian emigre radio

2. to get cell phones in the hands of the young Persians and have them call the radio station which would then broadcast their own voices

It would also help things if the Pavlevi family would renounce any interest in being head of a monarchy (they probably provide much of the funding of the emigre radio)

Posted by mhw 2005-01-26 10:30:49 AM|| 2005-01-26 10:30:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 what this represents is not so much the failure of any particular religion, but the universal human longing toward freedom, the resentment against the crushing boot of the tyrant, whether he wears a turban, an officers cap, or the hat of a "comrade".

Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-01-26 10:58:48 AM|| 2005-01-26 10:58:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 peggy, the Muslim's in power will ever admit thier failure, any more than our politicians do. But since I'm hearing from Bloggers that the people of Iraq don't want cleric's in the goverment, because they've heard from thier freinds in Iran, that it's not a good idea to have clerics in the goverment. This shows that at least the people (much like here) learn

Posted by plainslow 2005-01-26 11:08:54 AM|| 2005-01-26 11:08:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Peggy, if we're lucky, they'll learn before Europe.

Communism and fascism don't work, but hey, w/the brusselsprouts in place, it'll work this time!

---

And plainslow - the black turbans of Iran have told their comrades in Iraq, they don't want black turbans running Iraq's government.

Get the block isn't big enough.....

Posted by anonymous2u 2005-01-26 11:12:46 AM|| 2005-01-26 11:12:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Well put Liberalhawk.

Posted by Secret Master 2005-01-26 11:44:11 AM|| 2005-01-26 11:44:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 agreed

Posted by 2b 2005-01-26 12:12:21 PM|| 2005-01-26 12:12:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Liberal Hawk,

I dont disagree that all humans want to be free. But islam is in contradiction of human freedom because of its totality which is an idea that lies at its very heart. Therefore in any muslim dominated country no matter how moderate or liberal, the distinction between mosque and state is always blurred and the government is always to some extent the enforcer of islam's religious code on all citizens in some way shape or form.

I do not deny that any tyrannical regime is undermined for the same reasons that tehran is being undermined today. But islam's central tenents, beleieved by all no matter whether moderate or conservative are a leading factor in this case. Yes, it does point to the failure of trying to fully implement islam. This is the case wherever muslims attempt to bring islamic tenents into all aspects of life.

I wonder if you have studied islam with muslims, LH, or do you just assume that its just like all other religions without any serious examination?

I have studied it from muslims, the totality of islam is a given among them no matter what their stripe and has been throughout all of islamic history with few exceptions. Anyone taking the faith seriously must accept islams intrusion in government and its applicability to all citizens even non-muslims for even non-muslims must live under some form of islamic law and cannot opt out. This idea is absolutely inseparable from islam and it cannot work in practice. Therefore it is a failure over and over of one of the religion's tenents.

Posted by peggy 2005-01-26 12:43:00 PM|| 2005-01-26 12:43:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Therefore in any muslim dominated country no matter how moderate or liberal, the distinction between mosque and state is always blurred

Your words don't seem to fit in with how Turkey's proven itself. Can you bring its example into the framework of your theory?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-26 1:18:49 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-26 1:18:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 apparently it's in transition

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-26 1:34:26 PM|| 2005-01-26 1:34:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 It seems a mislabeling to call a full 80 years "transitional".

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-26 1:48:54 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-26 1:48:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 ive read several books and articles on Islam. I havent studied with muslims, nor have I studied Christianity with Christians.

Islam is a religion that impacts all of life, with detailed regulations. I follow a religion that does the same, its called Judaism.

Islams traditional texts make no allowance for the secular state. Nonetheless muslims in Turkey and Indonesia have built and supported secular states, and remained muslims. Tens of millions of Indian muslims accept life in a secular, predominanty Hindu state. I do not feel fit to tell those people that their form of Islam is inferior or inauthentic, and even if i spent some time "stuyding islam with muslims" i would not feel so fit.

I would also point out that theres a huge difference, one you skim over, between the application of muslim family law by the state, done in most muslim countries (but not Turkey)
and the application of sharia more broadly, as in Iran and KSA. Even Israel applies muslim family law to muslims (as it applies Jewish law - halacha - to Jews on such questions).

Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-01-26 1:55:37 PM|| 2005-01-26 1:55:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 i think frank meant theyre transitioning BACK, AK. It was a snarky remark about the current Turkish govt, no FG?

Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-01-26 1:56:31 PM|| 2005-01-26 1:56:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 exactly LH - who's the party of the current gov't, AK?

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-26 1:57:40 PM|| 2005-01-26 1:57:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 "who's the party of the current gov't, AK"?

In Germany, the main conservative party is still called "Christian Democratic Union" -- and yet nobody's thinking that it'll turn Germany into medieval-eras Christian prosecution of heretics.

In the same way, the fact that the governing party of Turkey used to have the word "Islam" in its title and that it contains religious conservatives, won't authomatically make me believe that secularism in Turkey is collapsing.

I don't believe that secularism is significantly threatened in the USA either, and from everything I gather politicians there tend to mention God much more often than Turkish politicians tend to mention Allah.

I've been looking for *actual* signs of Turkey regressing, and haven't been able to find many. Or indeed even one: if anything democracy has been strengthened the past years according to Freedom House reports. But as always, let me know if you have actual examples of the Turkish state becoming less secular.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-26 2:45:34 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-26 2:45:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Aris

You know little Turkish story. Mustapha Kemal despised Islam, said things about "being led by ignorant, filihy mullahs following the teachings of a mad Arab". And there are dozens of examples of state becoming less secular. Like the fact that until the end of the eighties making the pilgriamge meant political death. Today they have an Islamist prime minister who is slowly dragging Turkey under Arab yoke.

Posted by JFM 2005-01-26 3:59:19 PM|| 2005-01-26 3:59:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 And there are dozens of examples of state becoming less secular. Like the fact that until the end of the eighties making the pilgriamge meant political death

These seem to me as signs of Turkey becoming more *tolerant*, not less secular. Do you have any signs that indicate the state/mosque separation is being breached?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-26 9:47:17 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-26 9:47:17 PM|| Front Page Top

00:11 2xstandard
23:56 trailing wife
23:51 Frank G
23:47 GK
23:18 Frank G
23:16 Sobiesky
23:12 Frank G
23:12 Seafarious
23:07 Frank G
23:07 Frank G
23:06 Old Patriot
23:02 Jame Retief
22:59 Sobiesky
22:57 Old Patriot
22:54 Raj
22:53 Dishman
22:50 Frank G
22:48 Frank G
22:43 Raj
22:41 whitecollar redneck
22:37 Bomb-a-rama
22:29 Phil Fraering
22:28 John Q. Citizen
22:27 Robert Crawford