Article

2004-01-08 -Short Attention Span Theater-

Gotta say this(Re.Overhaul of U.S. Immigration )

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Posted by raptor 2004-01-08 10:39:09 AM|| || Front Page|| [11131 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 raptor, it needs to read: "They take the jobs that no one else wants for that lousy pay"

Posted by True German Ally 2004-1-8 11:23:11 AM|| 2004-1-8 11:23:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 That's the assumption, and it is not wholely accurate. Many visa overstays can be found in engineering, computers, or the medical fields. Look at the numbers of illegals the Customs Service has rounded up working at various airports. Hardly minimum wage jobs.

There are an estimated nine million illegals, and one piece I saw suggested that 35% are in the underground economy. The problem with numbers in this area is going to be that they are all estimates. How do we handle the existing problem? I don't believe that there is even the remotest possibility that we would round them all up and ship them home. For one thing, the government would have to infringe even further on the rights of its citizens in the effort to locate and deport the illegals.

It's like the folks that say "Ban guns." There are 200 million or more guns already out there. What do you do about them?

The cheapest and least devisive way to handle immigration is to recognize that some folks have made it to home plate. A fait accompli.

Illegal immigration puts strains on local services, but they are temporary strains. Most immigrants end up working, paying taxes, educating their children, just like the immigrants that came before them did. My ancestors, back to 1745, entered the country before immigration laws. The port cities were crowded, services overwhelmed. But in 30, 50 years, my folks had moved on. Indeed, my Irish ancestors managed to become wealthy in the first generation off the boat, the American dream.

Posted by Chuck Simmins 2004-1-8 11:26:07 AM|| [http://blog.simmins.org] 2004-1-8 11:26:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 When I kept pressing my boss for a decent raise he got irrtated and told me"Why should I pay you $11or12/hr when I can hire 2 wets for the same money".,

This question answers itself. As long as illegal immigrants exist as a sub-economic group, then the employer can continue to hire "wets" under the table at ~~starvation wages~~ lousy pay. But this new program will have a huge impact on ~~slaveowners~~ employers who will have to meet all state wage regulations, working condition standards, OSHA requirements, and income tax/FICA remissions. Small Business people will be the biggest complainers.

And with all respect to Cyber Sarge, his contractor was an ~~slaver~~ idiot. Good masonary people around my neck of the woods command their weight in gold.

Posted by john 2004-1-8 11:42:45 AM|| 2004-1-8 11:42:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 "Aye,there's the rub",You spotted the loop-hole,TGA.
If an employer advertise job positions the should pay $12or15/hr.But only offers $7or8/hr,then that employer can honestly say I tried to hire people who are legallly here,but no-one wanted the job.Guess I will have to import some workers."

employer:(Snicker)"I still only have to pay wetback wages.And it's legal now."(snicker)"

Was that last statement directed at me(Raptor),John?

Posted by raptor 2004-1-8 12:14:12 PM|| 2004-1-8 12:14:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 I feel this is the wrong policy for all the wrong reasons. Simply it is rewarding behavior that we want to stop. If they were to seal the border (I favor this) and then institute a guest worker program that would be great. But if you âlegalizeâ the workers already here then you will do nothing more than make room for the next âwaveâ of illegals. Since we are not going to seal the borders, we should not legalize the illegals. IMHO this will die a quick death in the House and that would be a good thing for President Bush. SEAL THE BORDERS AND THROW THEM OUT!

Posted by Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) 2004-1-8 12:19:08 PM|| 2004-1-8 12:19:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Raptor,

there are three major effects of illegal aliens; you discussed one of them, the suppression of wage scales

there are two other effects, first, an increase in the grey economy (wages paid in cash, social security not withheld, barter transactions); the other effect is that it reduces the incentive of businesses to become less labor intensive (with cheap labor why buy automation).

the Bush proposal will obviously not be enacted exactly as it stands now but if it was, it would at least control the growth of the grey economy. it might also give employers an incentive to raise the wages of the legal workers but that is more speculative

frankly, I don't think anyone can seriously predict the results of this if it were to become law

Posted by mhw 2004-1-8 12:36:28 PM|| 2004-1-8 12:36:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Link

Exerpt:

I'm all in favor of enforcing the immigration laws. But no one has demonstrated a practical method of removing the current group of illegals. I say "Fait accompli!" Find a way to legalize them, get them all into the legal economy. The nativists are proposing, for the first time in our history, to take working people and send them back to where they came from. This country was built by immigrants who were willing to work for low wages and at backbreaking menial jobs. So now that the Micks, the Chinks, the Wops and the Polacks have made it in, we close the borders?

It's funny how the very people who regularily tout the benefits of the American Way of Life, capitalism, free enterprise, the virtues of libertarianism, the inate goodness of the United States turn around and say the equivalent of "Oh, but that won't work for Mexicans."? Where are your principles? If freedom and economic growth are good for you and I, why not everyone? Hey, maybe I'm waving the black flag here, but my tiny brand of libertarianism says let people choose for themselves, not have their future imposed on them by government.

A half million people vote with their feet every year by coming to the United States. Just like Michael DeLaney did in 1845, and folks named Kroger, Meyers, Simmins, Ferris, and yes, Stockstaad, too. We are the future that those people wanted when they came to the United States. How can we honestly deny those choices and that freedom to those who are coming here today? Where are your principles?

Posted by Chuck Simmins 2004-1-8 2:39:14 PM|| [http://blog.simmins.org] 2004-1-8 2:39:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 If people in other countries want to enjoy the American way, why don't they start changing their homelands? IMHO, Mexico's support for illegals is intended PRECISELY to prevent that -- keep the discontent from building up by sending them north.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-1-8 3:20:08 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-1-8 3:20:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Chuck, did these people who built America enter the States illegally or did they go through Ellis Island?

Sure these were different times. But the message Bush sends here is the following: Enter illegally and sooner or later things will be sorted out. It's not about "denying those choices", it's about following rules that are set out for all. Illegal immigration means doing a lot of illegal things (tax evasion, document forging, depriving legal immigrants their fare share of jobs because illegals can work cheaper (tax free). Not a good start.

Do this once and you have the next 5 millions doing the same. And so on. And the guys who don't jump the files are shortchanged.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-1-8 3:59:26 PM|| 2004-1-8 3:59:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 It's good that the issue has been put on the table. Now let's dissect.

1) Understand we're discussing the problem of ILLEGAL aliens, not the legal immigrants. My mom's side arrived from Ireland in the aftermath of the Great Famine; my dad's side from Ireland in the aftermath of the Black and Tan. Immigration laws were much simpler then, perhaps nonexistent, but they came legally in any case.

2) What about those who attempt to come the legal way and have been waiting years for the bureaucracy to process their paperwork? Why won't they figure that it's easier just to fly to Mexico and cross over? Is that what Bush wants? I don't think so, but that's what will happen in many cases.

3) Potentially the biggest headache does not regard jobs and wages. It's this: How does Bush address the status of children born of those who are here in the initial 3-year period? In my ideal world, these offspring would not have the right to become Americans. I think, however, this is a constitutional matter, so lots of luck in making an amendment to this effect. This phenomenon is already rampant in Illinois and the Chicago Trib has a sob story every couple of months about how somebody is to be deported, but the somebody has kids born here, kids consider themselves Citizens, would never be able to adapt to new homeland, etc. Heartbreaking, but parent(s) should have thought of that before coming here illegally.

4) How is security of our borders enhanced with Bush's proposal? No evidence of that from what I have heard.

5) I don't think Bush's attempt at triangulation will pay off with an increased share of the Hispanic vote. This hunch is based on what the Hispanics (most of whom are citizens; others are legal) I teach tell me. They have done things right paper-work wise and think it's nuts to give away the store, so to speak. Bush would make more headway by going to the mat against Senate Dems in defense of folks like Miguel Estrada.

My Saudi experience is instructive here. You wanna work in the Magic Kingdom? OK, here are the conditions: Can't drink, can't worship, can't wear shorts, can't demonstrate or do politics, can't bring family unless you are a certain job status, kids born there can't become Saudi (please hold down laughter, but many Asian Muslims would like the chance), etc..., but you can save money. You get caught breaking the law, you go to jail or get sent home or both. OK? Good, sign here. So let's tell Mex that certain economic sectors will be open to its citizens and we will set the conditions and all paperwork/interviews have to be done in Mex. and they will pay fees to prevent US taxpayer from footing the bill.

6) What also rankles me is that there is no incentive for Vincente Fox to improve his economy if his people can participate in this program. He was a big help in the UNSC votes on Iraq a year ago, wasn't he? Why does Bush go out of his way to help the jerk? Can foreigners in Mexico start families there and then get Mex citizenship? I don't think so. All of this should be done on a quid pro quo basis. Como se dice en espanol "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours"?

Posted by Michael 2004-1-8 4:10:56 PM|| 2004-1-8 4:10:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 (1) Hire an illegal alien go to prison for 5-10 years. (2) Children of illegal aliens born in the United States do not become American citizens automatically. (3) Nobody who enters the United States (or stays late once in) can become an American citizen.

Those three laws would end illegal immigration into the United States without militarizing our borders or promoting illegal actions. Sure, couple the three laws with an increased guest worker program if you want but stick with the three laws.

Posted by ruprecht 2004-1-8 4:18:44 PM|| 2004-1-8 4:18:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 I live in Phoenix. I have noticed too that the majority of masonary and cement work is being done by hispanics, whether illegal, green cards, or citizens I wouldn't know. The bigger jobs and union jobs might be otherwise, but just driving around you see that the low cost immigrant labor appears to have changed the appearance of most masons over the last 20 years or so. I remodeled my house and hired an older master mason who wasn't hispanic, but his helper was a recent immigrant. Because of Arizona's "Right to Work" laws and the immigration issues, a master mason from another state would be hard pressed to stay at the same income level if they moved to Arizona.

Posted by Anony-mouse 2004-1-8 4:20:53 PM|| 2004-1-8 4:20:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 TGA: Turks in Germany. Who cleans the toilets in Berlin?

Everyone: At this point in time, legal / illegal is just a name. The FACT is that 9 MILLION people are here. Either we find a way to send them someplace else, or we regularize their status. There are no other choices. The task of identifying and rounding up 9 MILLION people is daunting, to say the least, and invites comparisons to other, unsavory roundups of people with no legal status in history. You're talking about 3-5% of the entire population, without knowing where the holes will appear. Your doctor, your maid, your mechanic. Who fills the empty jobs? What happens to the businesses that the illegals worked for? How many people do we send to jail for hiring illegals? A million?

Posted by Chuck Simmins 2004-1-8 4:35:58 PM|| [http://blog.simmins.org] 2004-1-8 4:35:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Chuck,
I read your link and I disagree that it is a 'racist' debate. I dont care if the illegal aliens are mexicans, canadian, english, martian, russian, or chinese. The fact that most illegal aliens are mexican is because we have this long, unprotected and unpatroled border with mexico and the jobs and lifestyle of the US is attractive to mexican citizens. I am sure that if we have such a border with China, or Russia, or Mars, or the Philippines that those groups would be comprise a larger segment of the illegal population (ok, perhaps not the martians....). Calling this racist is like calling laws against rape 'sexist' because most rapist just happen to be male.

The United States *has* changed its immigration policies to limit immigration but I don't think it was done to deny immigration specifically to 'mexicans'. You dont see free and open immigration from Europe or China or Canada do you? The policy change is across the board and not directed at one specific group. Plus mexicans have also 'made it' just like the other groups you have mentioned - travel in the SW and you will see millions of legal mexican immigrants and their descendants. Mexicans are still immigrating 'legally' just like Chinese and Russians, and the English, etc....

I think the reason the US changed its policy was more to protect american jobs (and wages) then to 'keep out those mexicans!'.

Why should we reward people who knowingly violated our federal laws by crossing the border illegally (or overstay their visa) with legality while, at the same time, punish those who are attempting to immigrate 'legally' by making them wait their turn (and perhaps even wait longer while the illegals 'cut in line').

I dont have a problem with LEGAL immigrants. I am married to a legal alien. And I dont want to stop immigration. They really are what makes this country great. However we do need to protect ourselves by performing background checks and medical checks on those who want to immigrate to our country. We also need to limit the flow of immigration to protect our economy, our country, and our standard of living.

There are processes for immigrating to the United States.

Now I agree that deporting the illegal alien population is probably impractical. So we will most likely have to compromise. Bush'es plan does this by allowing 'illegals' to keep their job and have 'legally' (and thus some protection against exploitation by employers) using this guest worker program while at the same time allowing them to seek LEGAL immigration status just like everyone else on the planet - including have to compete on the same playing field. Note that most illegal aliens face a 'ban' against immigration now due to their illegal or overstayed visa status. It sounds that this plan allows them to overcome that barrier without being a 'blanket amnisty' (I know I spelled that wrong).

But this plan will not achieve its goals unless it also have some teeth to make this plan 'attractive' to people and make 'illegal' status 'unattractive' some are:

1) Punish those employers who employ illegals (at very low pay thus exploiting them) with huge fines and, if necessary jail time. How would that Masonry employer feel if he had to pay 50K per 'wet' if he was caught?

2) Withhold funding to state and local governments who 'shelter' illegal aliens by being selective in enforcing federal laws. (We will enforce affirmitve action but not immigration laws...). These people are also enabling the exploitation of illegal aliens.

3) Deny all but 'humanitarian' aid to illegal aliens who do not take advantage of this plan. This includes education (public schools) and 'routine' medical.

4) Deny american citizenship to children born of illegal aliens who do not take advantage of this plan.

5) Illegal aliens who do not take advantage of this program automatically receive a 'ban' against legal immigration (length of ban 3, 10, or lifetime to be determined).

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-1-8 4:43:41 PM|| 2004-1-8 4:43:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 As usual, they treat the symptoms and not the cause.

The only way this will work is if we also control the borders and enforce the laws regarding immigration. And attack the illegal immigration at its root cause and source: Mexico and its despotic government.

First: stop giving benefits to illegals. Those benefits (shelter, medical, etc) are an incentive for them to come here illegally. They are criminals - they are breaking the law by their very presence here. WHen they come in for care, stabilize them, then ship them back to Mexico.

Force Mexico to become a real Republican Democracy by taking away their safety valve of pushing their problems north.

And if you want to whine about helping the poor Mexicans, then lets do it by taking some of the Foreign Aid we send to the Arabs (who buy weapons with it) down to Mexico instead for use in healthcare and basic economic infrastructure.

This batch gets documented, but when it comes time to leave, they are gone.

Also implicit is that no more are allowed in except in accordance with normal immigration. We need to fence the southern broder and patrol it against incursion.

And any illegal, expecially after this program goes into effect, should be immediately taken into custody and then deported swiftly (within 2 days of arrest they should be back in Mexico).

Justice should be swift and sure.

Mercy should be shown in their home country by helping to improve it there, not encouraging them to come here.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-1-8 4:55:34 PM|| 2004-1-8 4:55:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Chuck, most Turks are in Germany legally. They may be undocumented cases but if they are caught they are sent home.

And yes, this shouldn't be a racist issue. It's about the law being equal for everyone. A German being caught working illegally in the U.S. will be on the next plane out, with a big ugly stamp in his passport.

Btw the U.S. will always need legal immigration, and Europe will even need more of it.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-1-8 5:02:57 PM|| 2004-1-8 5:02:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 The way it works in IT - company advertises job with extensive requirements in multiple areas of technology and a very very low salary. When out-of-work IT folks apply - they're either under or over qualified for the job. Said company then claims they can't find an American to do the job and bring in a person on a H-1B or L-1 visa at a very low salary. If the foreign worker later objects to the low salary or working 100 hour weeks, company threatens them with deportation. CEO of company then gets a big bonus.

And that's if they just don't outsource the whole operation overseas ...

Posted by A Jackson 2004-1-8 6:37:12 PM|| 2004-1-8 6:37:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 All this talk about sealing the southern border seems fantastic. How many have driven along it? I-10 through NM and SE AZ reminded me of Death Valley. There's almost nothing there, but space and places to hide. Music on the radio is mostly salsa, the commercials are mostly in Spanish, and most of the stations are broadcasting from Mexico anyway. The language spoken by nearly everyone eating at the fast food restaurants is Spanish. The major industry in that section of the country seems to be transportation along the interstates or the railroad. I used to support the concept of sealing the southern border until I drove along it. Until a real border is established there, compromises like the one proposed by the president are the only way out. Maybe the US can establish a paramilitary draft to beef up the border patrol and have a million or so of our young citizens stand elbow to elbow from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico. But that would be such an expense and such an infringement on civil liberties

Posted by Tresho 2004-1-8 7:23:32 PM|| 2004-1-8 7:23:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 I could seal the border, given about 400 men, the legal status to do whatever it took, a dozen or so Apache (Helicoptors), and 200 Apache warriors (Amerinds). Of course, it ~~will~~might get ugly (body bags and all that), and the first time I found Mexican troops on the wrong side, we could be at war with Mexico, but I COULD SEAL THE %&%$&%*& BORDER! The problem isn't the capability, it's the will. Until we decide we WILL seal the border, it won't get sealed.

Posted by Old Patriot 2004-1-8 7:43:41 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2004-1-8 7:43:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Mexico's support for illegals is intended PRECISELY to prevent that -- keep the discontent from building up by sending them north.

Not only that, but illegals also send a lot of US dollars back to their families in Mexico. If that money wasn't forthcoming, Mexico would probably be worse off. Parasitism, almost.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-1-8 9:51:53 PM|| 2004-1-8 9:51:53 PM|| Front Page Top

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