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Today: 79 articles and 629 comments as of 15:37.
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London: B Team Boomer Banged
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Page 1: WoT Operations
18 00:00 Fun Dung Poo [1] 
12 00:00 Captain America [1] 
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15 00:00 True German Ally [1] 
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Page 2: WoT Background
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Page 3: Non-WoT
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Page 4: Opinion
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-Short Attention Span Theater-
UNITED STATES NEEDS TO RE-INVENT ITS GLOBAL WAR ON TERRORISM: An Analysis
South Asia Analysis Group (Indian intel?)

Global War on Terrorism Cannot Be Exclusively United States- Centric:

...


The international community was led to believe initially that once US military operations in Afghanistan were completed, it would tackle global terrorism threats elsewhere sequentially. India , China and Russia waited patiently for the above to happen.

It never emerged. On the contrary, Pakistan which was the “ Mecca ” of global Islamic Jihad was kept out of the purview of the “4- Ds strategy” on the pretext that tactically it was required for Afghanistan operations.

Even when the American military operations were over in Afghanistan and Pakistan’s strategic utility in relation to it ceased, the United States continued to keep Pakistan out of any punitive reach for its direct role not only in 9/11 but also the Islamic Jehad it launched in India and the world over.

This approach greatly devalued United States ’ commitment to the global war on terrorism in the perception of other countries that otherwise would have normally supported US efforts.

To the people of countries which stood victimized by Islamic Jihadi terrorism, it was galling to see that because of US- centric policies, Pakistan as the main protagonist of global terrorism stood condoned.

As long as the “4- Ds strategy” remains United States- centric, the international community less Britain would be disinclined to actively cooperate with the United States despite the rhetoric and Joint Working Groups established with some countries to combat terrorism.

The United States has to visibly display its commitment to wage a war on global terrorism by active assistance in restructuring it whether it is in Jammu and Kashmir ( India ), Chechnya (Russia) or Xingjian (China) or for that matter anywhere else.

...

You get the flavor but still some interesting points are made... with far too much whining ..
Posted by: 3dc || 07/22/2005 17:33 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  4-d?
Posted by: raptor || 07/22/2005 17:43 Comments || Top||

#2  Article: The United States has to visibly display its commitment to wage a war on global terrorism by active assistance in restructuring it whether it is in Jammu and Kashmir ( India ), Chechnya (Russia) or Xingjian (China) or for that matter anywhere else.

The authors want Uncle Sam to make it a global war on Muslim separatists. First off, their separatists are not our problem. Even if we wanted to solve their problems firsthand, these guys aren't going to let American troops within their borders to root out the problem. So what do they really want? Money. And free equipment. Nice try, but no cigar.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 07/22/2005 17:51 Comments || Top||

#3  Look what happened in the Philippines. We gave them arms, equipment and training (while they whined even about our trainers being inside their borders). And they piss it away in 'peace talks' with people who (according to the ongoing attacks) can't enforce any agreement anyway while the MILF busiliy rearms itself.
Posted by: CrazyFool || 07/22/2005 18:07 Comments || Top||

#4  So now that the Russians have had SO much time to screw up Chechnya, it's now our turn to come in and make everything better?
Posted by: Phil Fraering || 07/22/2005 18:08 Comments || Top||

#5  They do not grasp the big picture. How many Paks have the US led to the slaughter already in Afghanistan? How many of them would have eventually snuck into Kashmir, otherwise? The US *is* engaging the bad boyz everywhere in the world simultaneously, but doing so using great strategy and tactics, not fussing with some local situation where both sides (Pak and India) are stubbornly insisting on maintaining the status quo. If India wants to end the Kashmir problem quickly, why doesn't it just give that fly speck to Pakistan and withdrawl? No skin off their nose. It would cost them nothing more than a little pride and to admit that it is stupid to fight over nothing.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 07/22/2005 18:29 Comments || Top||

#6  Kashmir is not a fly speck. It is a large chunk of territory of great strategic value.

Kashmir is the high ground of the Indian subcontinent. It guards the northern frontier (against China). If Kashmir falls then the gangetic plains (the Indian heartland - the "cow belt") is under threat. This is why an entire Indian armored corps and a mountain warfare division guards Kashmir (besides the counterinsurgency troops).

It is not a fight about nothing. Kashmir holds the headwaters of major Indian rivers. The very lifeblood of Pakistan (- its rivers) originate in Indian Kashmir.

If 5 million Kashmiris cannot live in India because they are muslim, then the other 145 million muslims in India have no place there. A loss of Kashmir would cause bloodletting on a horrifying scale.

Musharraf has said that even if Kashmir was settled, the subconventional warfare (read terrorism) would continue. There are other bits of Indian territory that Pakistan covets.

Even if they were given these bits, there would still be jihad. The problem is not Kashmir, it is Paistan itself and the very ideology of pakistan - muslim extremism.

Posted by: john || 07/22/2005 18:42 Comments || Top||

#7  Anonymoose: If India wants to end the Kashmir problem quickly, why doesn't it just give that fly speck to Pakistan and withdrawl?

Indian Kashmir is the size of the great state of Georgia.

john: Kashmir is the high ground of the Indian subcontinent. It guards the northern frontier (against China). If Kashmir falls then the gangetic plains (the Indian heartland - the "cow belt") is under threat. This is why an entire Indian armored corps and a mountain warfare division guards Kashmir (besides the counterinsurgency troops).

What if India could reach agreement with Pakistan over the establishment of an *independent* Kashmir, as a kind of buffer state?
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 07/22/2005 19:31 Comments || Top||

#8  Kashmir was also a great Led Zeppelin song - defend it to the death
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 19:45 Comments || Top||

#9  There is no question of a buffer state. Such an entity would encourage the further breakup of India.
No Indian state has the right of secession.

Any independent Kashmir would be nothing but a tool to be used by outside powers (China and Pakistan) against India.

It would be a staging ground for attacks on the plains of India. Indian history has shown what happens when the plains are vulnerable. There is an entire mountain range in Afghanistan called the Hindu Kush - "The Killer of the Hindus" because of the hundreds of thousands of captured Indians who died crossing it as captives of the muslim armies of central asia.

India will not trust Pakistan again.
India has made many agreements with Pakistan. The Indus water treaty was favorable towards Pakistan, granting it the total output of three major Indian rivers. Nehru thought this might bring friendship.
Pakistan attacked in 1965.

In the 1971 Tashkent accords, Indira Gandhi gave to Pakistan what she could not get on the battlefield - the return of captured territory and 90000 POWs. There was an understanding that Kashmir would finally be settled with the LOC as border.
In 1988, Pakistan launched the jihad in Kashmir.

Finally Kashmir contains the Himalayas. No Indian can imagine their country minus the mighty Himalayan peaks.

Posted by: john || 07/22/2005 20:04 Comments || Top||

#10  There is also the matter that India can defend itself from whatever Pakistan can throw at it.
It has faced down Islamic terrorism for almost twenty years. It has been attacked three times by the Pakistan military (a quite formidable force in tis own right).
There is no need to make concessions.

There is a lot of nonsense written about India needing peace with Pakistan to develop economically or to become a great power.
Economic develpment depends on things like infrastructure and labor reforms (totally internal matters). Pakistan is no market for India.
India needs Walmart and Microsoft not Pakistan.

The example of China shows that territorial conflicts are no bar to great power status.
Posted by: john || 07/22/2005 20:15 Comments || Top||

#11  IOW, another article demanding the USA show the money and pay for modernizing the Islamic world, etal. besides of course also justifying/saving Islam for the Islamists while the latter reserves it right to attack and destroy America and American interests. As with Leftism-Socialism, parity and co-existence no longer suffices for any of the enemies of America, Westernism, andor Democapitalism. Its no longer enough for the Burqua Boyz/Islamikazes/Spetzlamists to contain themselves merely with the ME or those nations already under Islam. Someone has to pay and provide for their cradle-to-grave State/Govt-based $$$ dependencies and it t'aint gonna be them!? Both the Commies-Socies and Islamists are fighting for Super-Regulated, Super-Govt based or prioritized local, National, and Global world: POWER = relevancy/meaningfulness even iff its over a perennially poor and regressed OWG and Globalist-Unitarian World. WHat matters is that they rule and control, even as the lights start going out like NK or CUba, or the sun goes nova, ................................@etc.
Posted by: JosephMendiola || 07/22/2005 22:31 Comments || Top||

#12  Obviously the writer doesn't read about the Bush Doctrine. Moreover, it is not just a US play world cop situation but a universal threat to be address by numerous countries (so invested).

I do agree that the scale has flipped on the Paki situation. What was once barely tolerable is entirely intolerable in Pakiland.

Suggest that the Coaltion of the Willing should be enlarged by all the countries afflicted by Al Qaeda & Company.
Posted by: Captain America || 07/22/2005 23:08 Comments || Top||


al-Jizz reports on Saddam's Arraignment
Al-Arabiya news channel aired on Thursday a videotape of Iraq's toppled leader Saddam Hussein being questioned by the Iraqi Special Tribunal over alleged crimes against Shiite Kurds.

"You are accused of... deporting and confiscating money belonging to Shiite Kurds of al-Fayleyah," who were allegedly killed or deported to Iran on the eve of the Iran-Iraq war, the tribunal official, identified as Munir Hadad, told Saddam in the video.

The Dubai-based satellite channel said the interrogation session took place Thursday.

The interrogation is related to the treatment of al-Fayleyah Kurds, a minority Shiite sect within the mostly Sunni Muslim Kurdish population. Several of Saddam's deputies have been questioned in relation to the abuse of al-Fayleyah villagers.

Long-bearded Saddam, who was wearing a white shirt, a suit jacket and glasses, appeared to be defiant and stared directly into the judge's eyes, who in turn seemed uncomfortable and avoided eye contact with the ousted president.

The toppled leader also accused the current Iraqi government of being a U.S. puppet.

"I am detained by the new government which was appointed by the Americans," he said before the judge interrupted him, saying: "It was elected by (Iraqi) people," he said.

Saddam's lawyer, Kkhaleel al-Dulaime, who appeared with him in other hearings before the tribunal, was seen on the video taking notes on a legal pad.

Saddam also protested that he hasn’t been allowed to see his lawyer,

"How come that the lawyer does not see the defendant before the hearing, and does not get informed of the interrogation session?" he asked on the videotape.

In one part of the video, Saddam lectured the judge about objectivity.

"You should speak independently, whether in front of me or others... in front of a foreigner or an Iraqi," he said.

The judge replied: "We are an independent court... We do not belong to anyone."

Saddam was also seen signing a paper, while a voice was heard saying the paper was an authorization for his lawyer.

On Sunday, a commission of Iraqi judges filed the first charges against Saddam in a case related to the 1982 killings of 143 Shiite men in the village of Dujail, northeast of Baghdad. The incident occurred after Saddam escaped an assassination attempt in the village.

Saddam, his half-brother Barzan Ibrahim Al-Hassan, former vice president Taha Yasin Ramadan, former top judge Awad Badar Al-Bender and others will face trial in connection with the Dujail case.

A trial date is expected to be announced soon. If convicted, Saddam could face the death penalty.

Other investigations, including those of alleged genocide against the country's Kurdish and Shiite communities, were still continuing.

Evidence in many of the cases will require the exhumation of mass graves sites, a task that has been complicated by the deteriorating security conditions in Iraq.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 07/22/2005 17:26 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Britain
Man shot dead by police on Tube (More details)
Police have said a man shot dead by police at Stockwell Tube station in south London was "directly linked" to anti-terrorist operations. Met Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said officers fired after the man was challenged and refused to obey police. Police have said it is not yet clear if he was one of four bombing suspects shown on newly released CCTV footage. Scotland Yard said the man shot dead at about 1000 BST on Friday in Stockwell had still to be formally identified.

BBC correspondent Tom Symonds, in Stockwell, said it appeared his body had been taken from the station on Friday evening in a coroner's van.

The man was under police observation because he had emerged from a house that was being watched following Thursday's attacks, a Scotland Yard spokesman said.

He was followed by surveillance officers to Stockwell station, where his clothing and behaviour added to their suspicions, he added.

Police warned the man, who ran on to the station platform. Witnesses said the officers opened fire as he jumped on to a train.

Sir Ian told a press conference: "I need to make clear that any death is deeply regrettable but as I understand the situation the man was challenged and refused to obey police instructions."

The incident is being investigated and, like all fatal police shootings, will be scrutinised by the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

Stockwell passenger Mark Whitby told BBC News he had seen a man of Asian appearance shot five times by "plain-clothes police officers".

"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him," he said.

Police have cordoned off a 200-metre area around Stockwell station, where forensic officers are working amid sheeting and scaffolding. Passengers were evacuated from the station, which is on the Northern and Victoria lines. Services on those lines have resumed but Stockwell, Oval and Warren Street stations remain closed.

BBC Home affairs correspondent Margaret Gilmore said officers had challenged a known suspect they had been following.

"He ran, they followed him. They say they gave him a warning, they then shot him. "They brought in the air ambulance. They did everything they can to revive him. He died at the scene."

The Muslim Council of Britain said Muslims were concerned about a possible "shoot to kill" policy. Spokesman Inayat Bunglawala said: "There may well be reasons why the police felt it necessary to unload five shots into the man and shoot him dead, but they need to make those reasons clear."

Another passenger on the train, Anthony Larkin, told BBC News the man appeared to be wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out". The man burst in through the door to my right and grabbed hold of the pole and a person by the glass partition near the door

Londoner Dan Copeland was in the carriage in which the man was shot. He told BBC News: "We were sitting for a few minutes on the platform, then we heard shouting from the concourse between the two platforms.

"Then the man burst in through the door to my right and grabbed hold of the pole and a person by the glass partition near the door, diagonally opposite me.

"An officer jumped on the door to my left and screamed, 'Everybody out!' "People just froze in their seats cowering for a few seconds and then leapt up. "As I turned out the door onto the platform, I heard four dull bangs. "I ran past an armed officer who was standing on the platform and ran up the stairs."
So the guy was definitely a suicide bomber (or a good facsimile thereof) and apparently not one of yesterday's dud boomers and no evidence so far of any connection.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 17:08 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "the man was challenged and refused to obey police instructions."

Therfore his death rest on his own head. Shoot to kill yes, screw the "shoot to stop." when a possible bomber is the case as this one.
Posted by: Sock Puppet 0’ Doom || 07/22/2005 17:31 Comments || Top||

#2 
The Muslim Council of Britain said Muslims were concerned about a possible "shoot to kill" policy. Spokesman Inayat Bunglawala said: "There may well be reasons why the police felt it necessary to unload five shots into the man and shoot him dead, but they need to make those reasons clear."

Sorry sir, we tried to wound him, but his head got in the way.

An AC/DC lyric comes to mind here: Shoot to thrill.

I'm feelin it.

Pop pop pop pop pop,

Five shots to the old Mulligan will do a wannabe Jihadi some good I say. Lil air between the ears shouldn't be a big change for these dumbshits.

Totally freakin justified. In Israel they'd doze his house too!

EP
Posted by: ElvisHasLeftTheBuilding || 07/22/2005 17:45 Comments || Top||

#3  Puzzling how the witnesses are not reporting any words exchanged between the terrorist ("wallah-snakcbar") and the police ("does he have a bomb? or a gun? is he resisting?").

Seems they each knew very well what was going on and there was no need for words.

How much seething could be heard today across Moslem houses in the UK?
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 07/22/2005 17:48 Comments || Top||

#4  Also interesting how quickly Brit Police are rolling them up. Don Sensing suspects UK Muslims may be turning in Islamofascists to the authroities.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 07/22/2005 17:56 Comments || Top||

#5  Mrs D - that would be called self-preservation at this point and welcome. Who knew a few moderate muslims wanted to live (unbeaten)in britain? Remains to be seen, before you start saying any shit LH
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 18:05 Comments || Top||

#6  Mrs. D, I was thinking exactly the opposite. The police seem unable to pre-empt these attacks or roll up the networks afterwards. I'm in disbelief that all 4 of the dud boomers seem to have got away.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 18:49 Comments || Top||

#7  Suspected suicide bombers who ignore police orders or who try to resist must be killed instantly. The risk to innocent people and to the police themselves is just too great for a second warning or a wrestling match.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 07/22/2005 19:57 Comments || Top||

#8  There's a rumor that al-Beeb believes SAS-men did the job.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 07/22/2005 21:32 Comments || Top||

#9  ZF - luv ya baby
SAS?
Who cares?
Posted by: Bobby || 07/22/2005 21:45 Comments || Top||

#10  Don Sensing suspects UK Muslims may be turning in Islamofascists to the authroities

My cynical nature tells me they've had an eye on some of these guys for a long time. Too bad 53 had to die in order to provide a reason to move in.
Posted by: Pappy || 07/22/2005 22:28 Comments || Top||


Experts puzzled by bomb 'failure'
Edited for details: Unconfirmed reports suggested that most of the explosives used in the attempted attacks were triacetonetriperoxide - TACP - the same substance thought to have been used in the 7/7 attacks and was said to have been recovered from a suspected bomb factory in Leeds. TACP is known to degrade over time, which may explain why none of yesterday's devices exploded after the detonators were activated. Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan police commissioner, said some of the devices remained unexploded and that attempts had been made to set them off.
An explosives expert, Andy Oppenheimer of Jane's Information Group, said the small blasts could have been down to the bombs failing to explode properly or there being little explosive present. "It may be that there was a malfunction but it is not certain that there was substantial explosive in the devices. "This type of malfunction used to happen to the IRA, who had expert bombmakers ... It could be bad workmanship or it could be a deliberate attempt to disrupt the city two weeks later."
An army bomb disposal expert told the Guardian it was very unlikely that four devices would malfunction in the same way at the same time. "It is possible for the detonator to come out and just explode. The chances of all four doing that are remote."
If one incompetent guy put together four identical bombs, odds are pretty good they might all fail.
Homemade bombs typically use a small amount of high explosive to set off a larger quantity of less volatile material.
Witnesses reported seeing white powder after the blast on the Hackney Road bus. Acetone peroxide, linked to the July 7 attacks, can be used both as a detonator and to cause larger explosions. The compound, which looks like a white power, was used as a detonator by the attempted shoe bomber Richard Reid.
Hans Michels, an explosives expert at Imperial College London, said a batch of acetone peroxide would turn to vapour so quickly it would lose almost two-thirds of its mass over a couple of weeks unless stored properly.
So it has a short shelf life. That would explain a lot.
Posted by: Steve || 07/22/2005 15:45 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  No mystery here. It was Ensh'Allah! Allan didn't want splodeydopes killing more innocent people in his name. Sooner or later these idiots must come to realize that they are NOT doing God's will, but are being manipulated my evil cowards.
Posted by: GK || 07/22/2005 16:29 Comments || Top||

#2  Probably do to a recent variant of the Zionist Death Ray. A few tweaks of the basic model, and you got something that prevents jihadi bombs from exploding. Glad to see London able to deploy the system so fast.
Posted by: Penguin || 07/22/2005 17:19 Comments || Top||

#3  Experts puzzled by bomb 'failure', unlike those of us who spent 30 seconds using Google. These kind of headlines really annoy me especially from Al Guardian.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 17:32 Comments || Top||

#4  No mystery, phil_b. Al Guardian is agenda driven, not news driven.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 07/22/2005 17:35 Comments || Top||


Bomb suspect arrested at station
A man has been arrested at a Birmingham station in connection with the London bombings, according to British Transport Police (BTP). The man was arrested at Snow Hill metro station in the city centre on Friday.
He was detained under anti-terror laws and was reportedly carrying suitcases that may be connected with the London attacks on Thursday.
The station and surrounding area evacuated shortly after 1800 BST. BTP said the situation was ongoing. The two suitcases were reportedly being dealt with by explosives officers.

Posted by: Steve || 07/22/2005 14:05 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Hopefully, he wasn't on his way to blow up a plane, just trying to escape. But nothing is beyond these scum.
Posted by: mmurray821 || 07/22/2005 14:56 Comments || Top||

#2  2040: West Midlands Police say the man arrested at Snow Hill Station in Birmingham will not be facing any charges.

Courtesy of BBC "Up to Date"
Posted by: gp || 07/22/2005 15:49 Comments || Top||

#3  More Details . . .
BBC
Posted by: gp || 07/22/2005 16:04 Comments || Top||

#4  Curious he's not to be charged but seems not to have been released, either.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 07/22/2005 16:10 Comments || Top||


BBC up-to-minute web link
Up to the minute London coverage from the BBC.
Posted by: Steve White || 07/22/2005 13:50 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  not anymore up to date than rantburg :-)
Posted by: 2b || 07/22/2005 15:15 Comments || Top||

#2  That's true 2b, but 2 or three more weeks like this and the AOS is likely to get BF and start typing in their sleep.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/22/2005 15:26 Comments || Top||

#3  We have powers far beyond those of mortal men.
Posted by: Steve || 07/22/2005 15:45 Comments || Top||

#4  Are these special powers related to your individual colours?
Posted by: Shipman || 07/22/2005 18:20 Comments || Top||


Attacks on UK will continue, radical cleric says
Poster boy for the face of evil
Militant Islamists will continue to attack Britain until the government pulls its troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, one of the country's most outspoken Islamic clerics said on Friday. Speaking 15 days after bombers killed over 50 people in London and a day after a series of failed attacks on the city's transport network, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed said the British capital should expect more violence.
After all he has a pipeline to Allah, doesn't he?
"Kill the infidels 'cause God is Great!"

"What happened yesterday confirmed that as long as the cause and the root problem is still there ... we will see the same effect we saw on July 7," Bakri said.
You mean the fact that Britain's chock full of nasty holy men, firing up rubes to get them to boom their fellow citizens?
"If the cause is still there the effect will happen again and again," he said, adding he had no information about future attacks or contacts with people planning to carry out attacks.
"No, no! Certainly not! I'm not involved. Nope. Nope."
Bakri, a Syrian-born cleric who has been vilified in Britain since 2001 when he praised the September 11 hijackers, said he did not believe the bombings and attempted attacks on London were carried out by British Muslims.
"They were Lutherans. Definitely Lutherans..."
Did they check him for LSD?
He condemned the killing of all innocent civilians but described attacks on British and U.S. troops in Muslim countries as "pro-life" and justified. In an interview with Reuters, Bakri described Osama bin Laden, leader of the radical Islamist network al Qaeda, as "a sincere man who fights against evil forces".
In 1933 a lot of Germans said the same of Hitler...
Bakri said he would like Britain to become an Islamic state but feared he would be deported before his dream was realised.
Hopefully, it'll be well before his dream is realized.
"I would like to see the Islamic flag fly, not only over number 10 Downing Street, but over the whole world," he said.
I'd like to see this guy flying on a satellite launch as ballast on the rocket...

A hate figure for the British tabloid press, (al-Rooters shows itself) the bearded and bespectacled Bakri said Islam contained "a message of peace for those who want to live with the Muslims in peace".
Fertilizer...
"But Islam is a message of war for those who declare war against Muslims," he said. "I condemn any killing and any bombing against any innocent people in Britain or abroad, but I expect the British people to condemn the killing of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan."
Condemn in one hand and poop in the other. See which fills first.
However, asked about Islamist attacks on British and U.S. troops and on Israelis, he said: "If violence is pro-life I don't condemn it"... Bakri, a 46-year-old father of six, was born in Syria and lived in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. When the Saudi government expelled him in 1985 he came to London.
Who the F let him in?
Nicknamed "The Tottenham Ayatollah" after the area of north London in which he lives, he has infuriated many Britons with his firebrand speeches and refusal to condemn suicide bombings.
I guess one man's "firebrand speeches" is another man's "insane ranting."
He founded the British branch of Hizb ut-Tahrir, which describes itself as a non-violent political party dedicated to creating an Islamic caliphate centred on the Middle East.
Huh?
Hizb ut-Tahrir's an al-Qaeda front organization that's primarily a recruiting tool...
But he split from the group in 1996 and set up al Muhajiroun, which won notoriety in 2001 for celebrating the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon which killed nearly 3,000 people.
Yeah, a real man of pisseace
Bakri has Syrian and Lebanese citizenship and says he thinks the British government might deport him to one of those two countries in the wake of this month's bombings.
Kick the bastard out! Send him back to Syria...
Memo to Dan Darling: Dan, find a nice, quiet place for this guy. Not Gitmo, not Bagram. Diego would be okay.
"But I think that would be political suicide for the British government if they started to deport and imprison all extremists and radicals," he said. "Because if, God forbid, something happened again, they would have nobody left to blame."
If they truly "deport(ed) and imprison(ed) all extremists and radicals", then the attack would not come from inside Britain
Posted by: BigEd || 07/22/2005 11:16 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  5 more bullets needed, he needs a shave.
Posted by: Ulereger Clavigum6227 || 07/22/2005 11:33 Comments || Top||

#2  Who the F let him in?
needed to be highlighted...

Fred, or whoever is the mod... Can you fix?
Posted by: BigEd || 07/22/2005 11:35 Comments || Top||

#3  Ja ja, but he is the devil they know rather than the quiet shy little devil living next door playing football with mummsies lil precious ones just before he jumps in a lorry and blows it up at a BP some warm pretty Sunday afternoon. Be grateful he has a mouth to guide you to his empty heart... its the quiet ones that jump you when least expected. The barking dog lets you know he is there... its the biters that should worry us more.
Posted by: Fun Dung Poo || 07/22/2005 11:42 Comments || Top||

#4  "The attacks on Britain will continue until the government pulls it troops out..."
and then the attacks will continue until you appease us yet again and again and again after that.

"I expect the British people to condemn the killing of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan."

Many Britons and many of us Americans do condemn the killings--but it's MUSLIMS killing other MUSLIMS. Hello!
Posted by: Dar || 07/22/2005 11:43 Comments || Top||

#5  And just why is he still ambulating?
Posted by: raptor || 07/22/2005 11:48 Comments || Top||

#6  Don't ask me raptor, I just live here...
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 07/22/2005 11:57 Comments || Top||

#7  This guy needs a visit from SAS, soon if not sooner
Posted by: Cheaderhead || 07/22/2005 11:57 Comments || Top||

#8  Omar, the self-identifying target.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 07/22/2005 11:57 Comments || Top||

#9  Bakri said he would like Britain to become an Islamic state but feared he would be deported before his dream was realised.

They should deport him in a wooden box, filled with dried raisins.
Posted by: DragonFly || 07/22/2005 12:03 Comments || Top||

#10  Dried Pork scratchings more like.
Posted by: Ulereger Clavigum6227 || 07/22/2005 12:06 Comments || Top||

#11  A wooden box filled with pig droppings would be more fitting.

Posted by: CrazyFool || 07/22/2005 12:06 Comments || Top||

#12  They should deport him in a wooden box, filled with dried raisins

DragonFly! 72 raisins! Not a raisin more. Not a raisin less...
Posted by: BigEd || 07/22/2005 12:07 Comments || Top||

#13  Militant Islamists will continue to attack Britain until the government pulls its troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan
If you do that, then it will just be some other reason. "Abandon Israel or more attacks", then "all westerners must leave the arabian peninsula or more attacks", the "world must be ruled by caliphate or more attacks". Where would it end? Which points do the liberals want to capitulate on? The destruction of israel? Worldwide caliphate? Banned from middle east/ arabian peninsula?
Posted by: Whaving Shong9753 || 07/22/2005 12:11 Comments || Top||

#14  Bakri, a Syrian-born cleric who has been vilified in Britain since 2001 when he praised the September 11 hijackers

Poor little murderous bastard. Someone strap him into a bulky coat and send him on the tube.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 07/22/2005 12:13 Comments || Top||

#15 

The body can be smeared...
Posted by: BigEd || 07/22/2005 12:18 Comments || Top||

#16  Yeah, RC, why doesn't someone introduce him to the concept of "putting your money where your mouth is"? Go blow yourself up somewhere, sheisskopf!
Posted by: Bobby || 07/22/2005 12:21 Comments || Top||

#17  BigEd...kudos!
Posted by: DragonFly || 07/22/2005 12:35 Comments || Top||

#18  Can he get one of those heart attack things like his buddy Qari (see above article)? Can somebody 'help' him get one?
Posted by: glenmore || 07/22/2005 12:37 Comments || Top||

#19  These sheisskopfs are going to keep pushing terrorism and pushing terrorism until the genie is let out of the bottle. They won't be able to get the genie back in the bottle. They really don't understand...they only think they do.
Posted by: Ulaper Ebbise7768 || 07/22/2005 12:45 Comments || Top||

#20  "Bakri said he would like Britain to become an Islamic state..."
Their intentions are clear. Islam needs a lesson.
Posted by: Neutron Tom || 07/22/2005 12:53 Comments || Top||

#21  Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed said the British capital should expect more violence.

In context with his other statements and the recent attacks, this is akin to a declaration of war. Bakri is even more dangerous than the guy who ran in Stockwell. Shoot him and deport his widow+kids.
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 07/22/2005 13:19 Comments || Top||

#22  What is wrong with the British? I think Mussarhif (spelling?) had it right when he said that it was Britian that needed to do more about these IslamoFacists. Pakistan could always do more, but Britian just lets these HitlerMullahs continue to advocate murder and terrorism in thier own country (Britian) and does't do a thing about it. Are they trying to commit suicide? And the mayor of London is allmost a blood Brother to them.
Posted by: FeralCat || 07/22/2005 13:34 Comments || Top||

#23  Que the football hooligans...
Posted by: mojo || 07/22/2005 14:10 Comments || Top||

#24  I am pretty sure the UK has a sedition law they can use on him if they have the will. What ever he should not be allow to speak in public ever at all. Every statement he makes is an incitwement to violence.
Posted by: Sock Puppet 0’ Doom || 07/22/2005 14:15 Comments || Top||

#25  King Tubby Omar's caliphate dreamer/monger scum are not compatible with an free, open and tolerant society. Despite slipspeak he's making a public pronouncement of his hatred for and an endorsement of violence against the UK and western civilization. Don't have to connect all too many dots to understand it. Begone I'd say. But on second thought why inflict him upon anyone else's society by deportation? Lifetime solitary confinement (on a local diet!) would probably do him well if the 7.62mm trepanation cure isn't legally possible.
Posted by: MunkarKat || 07/22/2005 14:28 Comments || Top||

#26  Re: Memo to Dan Darling

Reservation on flight to Diego with airfare paid for only one quarter of the round trip...

Swim wid de fishes Sheik...
Posted by: DanNY || 07/22/2005 14:31 Comments || Top||

#27  This friggin guy should be brought over to the tower of London and shown the guillotine. I am stunned like raptor as to why this guy is still ambulating.
Posted by: intrinsicpilot || 07/22/2005 15:20 Comments || Top||

#28  This friggin guy should be brought over to the tower of London and shown the guillotine. I am stunned like raptor as to why this guy is still ambulating.
Posted by: intrinsicpilot || 07/22/2005 15:20 Comments || Top||

#29  If Bakri were to turn up dead, I for one, would have no objections.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 07/22/2005 15:23 Comments || Top||

#30  Oh no! The Tower hasn't gone Froggy has it?
Posted by: Shipman || 07/22/2005 15:28 Comments || Top||

#31  I am pretty sure the UK has a sedition law they can use on him if they have the will.

Never happen. Britain has more of a problem with liberals than we do.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 07/22/2005 15:32 Comments || Top||

#32  5 rounds in his head like the geezer in stockwell.
Posted by: Nockeyes Nilberforce || 07/22/2005 15:48 Comments || Top||

#33  they dont need to use a sedition law. They need some country in the ME to ask for him to be extradited. Note that UK has recently to come to an agreement on extradition with Jordan.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 07/22/2005 15:57 Comments || Top||

#34  OOOH, Jordan!!! He does NOT want to get extradited to Jordan. They get "inventive" while interrogating people; finding all sorts of unpleasant uses for common household objects :)
Posted by: Shieldwolf || 07/22/2005 16:37 Comments || Top||

#35  Extradition is one thing. Expulsion is another, and that is what this person should get. He has two passports, let him use one of them; or let Lebanon and Syria strip him of citizenship. Such persons are not entitled to house space in the civilized world.
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/22/2005 16:45 Comments || Top||

#36  Never happen. Britain has more of a problem with liberals than we do.

Free-range liberals are just one of the hassles of an open society. Like the seriously mentally ill wandering the street homeless.
Posted by: eLarson || 07/22/2005 17:15 Comments || Top||

#37  What's next, you going to call them organic liberals?
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 07/22/2005 17:50 Comments || Top||

#38  Why should this bastard be extradited to Jordan when he's Syrian?
Besides, preaching jihad murder probably isn't a crime in either country.
I'm with the rest of the Crusader gang here--shipped back to wherever in a cheap coffin with raisins, covered in lard, etc.
Case closed...literally.
Posted by: Jennie Taliaferro || 07/22/2005 18:11 Comments || Top||

#39  Free-range liberals

LOL-- I gotta write that down...
Posted by: Dave D. || 07/22/2005 18:20 Comments || Top||

#40  Heh, Yep a keeper.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/22/2005 18:22 Comments || Top||

#41  If you ship this asswipre anywhere that doesn't immediately take a cheese grater to his forehead, then he is going to keep preaching his hateful muzzie caliphate crap on tapes, CD's, etc. He needs to be iced. Of course he will then be a martyr. One of his kids will do that Tater thing and try and follow in dad's footsteps. At least Hitler had the decency of not having children and Himmler killed his. This guy is a stain and, I'm guessing, that the apples aren't falling far from the tree.
Posted by: remoteman || 07/22/2005 19:11 Comments || Top||

#42  Militant Islamists young men from rural America will continue to attack Britain terrorist scum until the government pulls its troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan they are dead, one all of the country's most outspoken Islamic clerics Republicans said on Friday.
Posted by: Secret Master || 07/22/2005 21:15 Comments || Top||


Armed police takes the streets of W. London -witnesses
Armed police told residents around Harrow Road in west London to stay off the streets on Friday and one witness told the BBC he saw remote controlled trucks that he thought were used by bomb disposal units. "There's what looks like a bomb disposal-type vehicle, armoured, and there's several armed officers around it," Houst Monfaradi told BBC television, adding there was a huge police presence in the area.

"About half hour an ago, police ran up my road telling everyone to get inside their houses. Anyone who even pops their head out, they scream at them: 'get inside your house'." He said he also saw a small remote-controlled tracked vehicle, followed by a couple of armed officers with shields.

London police had been due to hold a news conference at 1:30 p.m. (1230 GMT) on the day's events but it was delayed by more than an hour. Sky Television, citing police sources, said the delay was for operational reasons. Sky News has witnesses reporting "popping sounds"
Posted by: Steve || 07/22/2005 09:41 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Everyone over there - stay safe. Our thoughts are with you!
Posted by: 2b || 07/22/2005 9:51 Comments || Top||

#2  BBC just sayz 6 shots fired...police armed vehicle gets involved...
Posted by: Dutchgeek || 07/22/2005 10:00 Comments || Top||

#3  Sky News: Harrow Rd police with snipers targeting one house.
Posted by: Steve || 07/22/2005 10:01 Comments || Top||

#4  For those of us at work the BBC (I cannot believe I am suggesting this!)is available on the internet and they are providing live witness accounts.
Posted by: Dragon Fly || 07/22/2005 10:20 Comments || Top||

#5  BBC providing unscreened witness accounts? No bias?
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 10:34 Comments || Top||

#6  Frank G - That's why you check Sky - not perfect, but better...
Posted by: BigEd || 07/22/2005 10:47 Comments || Top||

#7  The BBC the ACLU they are all nuts and enemies of our countries!! They are not interested in a non-bias and accurate story!! They have white washed everything!! They just want to hug the Islamo-Facists!! What happened to the strong England of WWII have they been taken over? What happened to the strong America?! Has the ACLU and the Homo's of Hollywood removed your teeth?! God will awaken the sleeping giants, we can only hope before it is too late for all of us!!
Posted by: Shaish Whack3823 || 07/22/2005 11:19 Comments || Top||

#8  Uhm, I was only suggesting a live feed for those of us at work. I did so reluctently, as you can see in my post. My intention was not to take away from the original intent of the thread. Carry on.
Posted by: Elmulet Cholump1267 || 07/22/2005 11:22 Comments || Top||

#9  I guess they popped the perp, good shooting!
Posted by: Cyber Sarge || 07/22/2005 11:22 Comments || Top||

#10  That last post was me.
Posted by: DragonFly || 07/22/2005 11:22 Comments || Top||

#11  "What happened to the strong America?!"

They're reading Rantburg. And buying ammo...
Posted by: Dave D. || 07/22/2005 11:41 Comments || Top||

#12  ...sending themselves or their children off to fight, preparing the younger ones for their turn, or at least sending care packages and air conditioners to those at the point of the spear.

And of course, reading Rantburg. ;-)
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/22/2005 16:50 Comments || Top||


Experts hail 'forensic goldmine'
As the search for evidence continues after Thursday's London blasts, experts feel the unexploded devices will provide a wealth of clues. Similarities between the latest attacks and those of 7 July suggest there might be a connection. Detailed chemical analyses are expected to reveal why the bombs did not go off. Investigators also hope to get help from a number of passengers who witnessed the failed attacks and described the suspects to the media.
Early indications suggest Thursday's incidents and those of a fortnight ago may have been masterminded by the same group. Clues pointing in this direction include the type of rucksacks used to carry the bombs around, the chosen targets - three Tube trains and one bus at compass points on the travel network - and the type of explosive itself, said the BBC's Mark Urban. The head of the Metropolitan Police, Sir Ian Blair, said the new attacks were meant to cause mass casualties.

But why did all the devices fail to detonate? Speaking on BBC Two's Newsnight programme, Mike Granatt - a government counter-terrorism adviser - said the science of bomb making was not precise. "People who are doing things in a hurry and under tension get things wrong - and thank God they appear to have got things wrong," he said.
Thank God for human stupidity.
He added that the clues left behind by the bombers, including fingerprints on the rucksacks, might provide investigators with a "forensic goldmine". "Unlike the fingertip forensic search we saw in Tavistock Square which went on for days, they (the police) have got something complete, they've got the fingerprints on there possibly," he said. "They've got other material on there, they can take a look at it, compare it and try and trace back the materials that were used to make the bomb and indeed the signature of the bomb maker."

Former government intelligence analyst Crispin Black said the chance to examine the bombs themselves was "forensic bingo", saying: "This is as good as it gets." In addition, Dame Pauline Neville Jones - who formerly chaired the Joint Intelligence Committee - believes the forensic trail would "lead back to real knowledge". But she warned that tracking down the terrorists might take a long time. "You build up an intelligence picture of something which is as complex and as potentially widespread as the sort of threat that we face only slowly and only very carefully," she told Newsnight. "I think the resources will be thrown to this task in a manner which means that we won't allow ourselves years to do it." Thousands of police officers are involved in the hunt.

Roy Ramm, former Commander of Specialist Operations for the Met police, said police had an amazing opportunity to find the bombers. "These devices haven't detonated so the evidence remains intact," he said. "They'll want to take these bombs apart in most minute details. They'll be looking at everything from sticky tape that may have held a detonator to the bomb to see if there's fingerprints on the back of that. "They'll be looking for fragments of DNA - we know that people have been convicted of robbery on one hair or fragment of dandruff - so these are very powerful investigative tools."
Let's use the forensics for more than just 'law enforcement'.
Police will be hoping that numerous apparent sightings of the suspects will also help boost the investigation. Each of the failed bombings were witnessed by passengers. Several of them described the attackers as "scared" or "surprised" as their bombs failed to cause a proper explosion. Kate Reid, who was involved in the Oval accident, said she was on the train when she heard a "pop" as if a big balloon had burst before seeing a young-looking, dark-skinned man with a bag at his feet who looked "really scared".
Either it went off before he expected it to, or he was surprised he was still alive.
Witnesses also described how the suspects were chased by other passengers as they made their way to the exits. One passenger told BBC News that he put his foot out to try to trip one of them up but failed. Another, Hugo Palit, who was walking into Warren Street Tube station, said he saw "a guy coming out and people chasing him". He described him as "a bit confused, looking right and left".
"Feet, don't fail me now!"
Posted by: Steve || 07/22/2005 09:06 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Methinks some folks are going to have maybe not so unexpected visitors at their homes in the next 48 hours. We'll hear stories of the same old "good lads" and their morality and politeness from friends, spouses and family. Apologists will bemoan the foreign policy evils that, understandibly, makes for sociopathic boomers. We'll hear statements about how religion's got nothing to do with it but rather it's the Root Causes. And by the way, Pakistan doesn't have anything at all to do with it anyway, right?
Posted by: MunkarKat || 07/22/2005 9:21 Comments || Top||

#2  Several of them described the attackers as "scared" or "surprised" as their bombs failed to cause a proper explosion. Kate Reid, who was involved in the Oval accident, said she was on the train when she heard a "pop" as if a big balloon had burst before seeing a young-looking, dark-skinned man with a bag at his feet who looked "really scared".

I guess they were afraid they'd lose their 72 raisins.
Posted by: Bobby || 07/22/2005 9:22 Comments || Top||

#3  The A-team of terrorists spends lots of time and energy learning about bombmaking, working on components and rehearsing the electronics.

The B-team, C-team, etc. rely on the all merciful Allah to guide the hand of the bombers and to allow them to kill many infidels.
Posted by: mhw || 07/22/2005 9:39 Comments || Top||

#4  It will be interesting to see if apartments in London start combusting spontaneously.
Posted by: Palladin || 07/22/2005 9:45 Comments || Top||

#5  not just apartments, palladin

bomb components could have been stored in mosques or islamic schools or islamic community centers
Posted by: mhw || 07/22/2005 9:54 Comments || Top||

#6  Thqat would be even more tragic.

/sarcasm
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 07/22/2005 9:58 Comments || Top||

#7  I wonder whether the apparent surprise of the would-be terrorists was because their bombs didn't go off as planned or, rather, because they were surprised they were going off too early (having been told by their handlers that the mission was a drop, NOT suicide). This would also explain their scared reaction, would it not?
Posted by: mjh || 07/22/2005 10:27 Comments || Top||

#8  They're all in France or Ireland by now, most likely.
Posted by: Pappy || 07/22/2005 11:06 Comments || Top||

#9  I hope they find them and capture at least one of them alive.

Make these savage beasts sing.
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 07/22/2005 11:12 Comments || Top||

#10  Kalle - you need to apologize to savage beasts everywhere for comparing them to this pond scum.

(Oops - apologies to pond scum everywhere, too.)
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 07/22/2005 12:24 Comments || Top||

#11  I wonder whether the apparent surprise of the would-be terrorists was because their bombs didn't go off as planned or, rather, because they were surprised they were going off too early

No.

Two weeks ago, before the 7/7 attacks, we could argue if they didn't know their fate. Two weeks after 7/7? I don't buy it.

Infinitely more likely -- they knew that, if their bombs didn't explode:

1) They were no longer guaranteed their raisins.

2) The crowd might just tear them to shreds, a fate that's likely more painful than instant vaporization at the heart of a bomb.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 07/22/2005 12:36 Comments || Top||

#12  I wish at least one of these failed bombers had been caught by the public. It would be a wonderful tonic, and put jihadis on notice that they're at risk wherever they go and try to perform jihadist rituals of mass-murder.
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 07/22/2005 12:51 Comments || Top||

#13  Wasn't there a report about a boomer exclaiming as he ran for his life, "What's wrong with these people"?

Sounds more like, "Why are they chasing me? I thought they were women and sheep!"

You moron. They're British, not Spanish!
Posted by: Bobby || 07/22/2005 13:10 Comments || Top||

#14  That exclamation was made by a passer-by when the failed bomber was running away.
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 07/22/2005 13:21 Comments || Top||

#15  Seems to me I read a story some time ago about CIA, MI5, Mossad leaking out phony plastic explosives and det caps. Could this be some of their stuff? I wonder if we would be told if it was? That would be great wouldnt it?
Posted by: bigjim-ky || 07/22/2005 14:14 Comments || Top||

#16  Seems to me I read a story some time ago about CIA, MI5, Mossad leaking out phony plastic explosives and det caps. Could this be some of their stuff?

Unlikely. The terrs prefer to mix their own, because that way they don't have to worry about sting operations. It's also easier to proclaim innocence when you're caught with a bunch of raw materials -- even when it's bomb related -- than it is with the explosives themselves.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 07/22/2005 15:30 Comments || Top||


I saw Tube man shot - eyewitness
A passenger has told how he saw armed police officers shoot a man dead on a Tube train at Stockwell. Mark Whitby said: "I was sitting on the train... I heard a load of noise, people saying, 'Get out, get down'. I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train, he was hotly pursued by three plain clothes officers, one of them was wielding a black handgun. He half tripped... they pushed him to the floor and basically unloaded five shots into him," he told BBC News 24.
"Take that, sucker!"
"**They didn't tell us about this part back in jihad school... Ow!... Rosebud!"
"As [the suspect] got onto the train I looked at his face, he looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, a cornered fox.
[Huffa puffa! Huffa puffa!] "**Gotta get away! Gotta explode!**"
"He looked absolutely petrified and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him, [they] couldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand. He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him.
Bet that hurt, briefly...
"He [the suspect] had a baseball cap on and quite a sort of thickish coat - it was a coat you'd wear in winter, sort of like a padded jacket. He might have had something concealed under there, I don't know.
"Didn't want to find out, either..."
"But it looked sort of out of place with the sort of weather we've been having, the sort of hot humid weather.
Bingo! Thats one of the things you're told to look for, heavy coat in hot weather that might conceal a bomb vest.
"He was largely built, he was quite a chubby sort of guy. I didn't see any guns or anything like that - I didn't see him carrying anything. I didn't even see a bag to be quite honest.
"There was only the fuse between his shoulder blades..."
"I got into the ticket hall. I was approached by a policeman and London Underground staff asking me if I needed counselling. I was just basically saying I've just seen a man shot dead. I've seen a man shot dead. I was distraught, totally distraught. It was no less than five yards away from where I was sitting. I actually saw it with my own eyes."
Cheeze. Give him some counselling, why don'tcha?
Another passenger on the train, Georgia Law, told BBC Radio 5 Live she heard the shots. "I heard all these popping sounds, it sounded like gunshots, but quite quiet ones. I could hear shouting, 'get down' and people going 'run, run'. I thought there was just someone shooting randomly. So I lay on the floor of the carriage and then I decided to get up and have a look out. [I] could see someone lying on the floor and police all standing around. But it was all quite panicky so I then ran up the platform and out of the Tube."
"Taxi!"
Commuter Anthony Larkin, who was also on the train at Stockwell station, told 5 Live he saw police chasing a man. "I saw these police officers in uniform and out of uniform shouting 'get down, get down', and I saw this guy who appeared to have a bomb belt and wires coming out and people were panicking and I heard two shots being fired."

Jason Dines was a passenger on a Victoria line tube train which arrived at Stockwell station as the shooting was taking place. "When we pulled into Stockwell there was just a lot of panic on the platform," he told News 24. "Everyone who was on the platform was just running from one end of the platform down to the exit as quickly as possible. There was a real wave of panic on my train, people were banging on the doors saying, you know, 'come on, open the doors, let us get off, we want to get off the train'. Because of that panic, you couldn't actually hear what the driver's announcements were, what he was telling us to do which was a bit of a problem. The doors opened, we got onto the platform, then you could hear the PA address system on the platform - the drivers were basically saying get back on the train. There were people very, very shaken, a couple of people crying. It was quite an unsettling experience."
Posted by: Steve || 07/22/2005 08:52 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I saw this guy who appeared to have a bomb belt and wires coming out ...

But what if he was innocent?

On the other hand, what if he blew himself up?
Posted by: Bobby || 07/22/2005 9:11 Comments || Top||

#2  and I saw this guy who appeared to have a bomb belt and wires coming out and people were panicking and I heard two shots being fired."
so much for not having a bomb.

Quite fun!
It was quite an unsettling experience."
he was quite a chubby sort of guy.I didn't even see a bag to be quite honest.
It was quite an unsettling experience."
"But it was all quite panicky

and my favorite, a phrase which would only be heard in Britian:

I heard all these popping sounds, it sounded like gunshots, but quite quiet ones.
Posted by: 2b || 07/22/2005 9:12 Comments || Top||

#3  Britain
Posted by: 2b || 07/22/2005 9:26 Comments || Top||

#4  I gather tradition in these cases dictates that a small trial for murder is held for the police officer. After his acquittal and vindication, he will then be presented with commondations and accolades from the department and others. In this case, pretty significant others.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 07/22/2005 10:12 Comments || Top||

#5  Sky News Report from other wittnesses


One "interesting one" below!


Mark Whitby said he was sitting on the Tube at Stockwell when the man ran in to the carriage.


He described suddenly hearing people shouting "get down, get down".

Mr Whitby said: "An Asian guy ran on to the train. As he ran, he was hotly pursued by what I knew to be three plain-clothes police officers.

"As the man got on the train I looked at his face. He looked from left to right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, like a cornered fox.

"He looked absolutely petrified.

"He half-tripped, was half-pushed to the floor.

"One of the police officers was holding a black automatic pistol in his left hand. They held it down to him and unloaded five shots into him. I saw it. He's dead, five shots, he's dead."

"I'm totally distraught," he added. "It was no more than five yards away from where I was sitting as I saw it with my own eyes."

Mr Whitby said the suspected bomber "looked like a Pakistani" and was wearing a baseball cap and a thick coat.

He added: "He was quite large, big built, quite a sort of chubby guy."

--------------------------------------------------
DANG!

When they have "SHOO TO KILL ORDERS" re: terrorists. They ain't kidding.

I'll bet you the ACLU British equivalent is s**tting in their pants on this one!
Posted by: BigEd || 07/22/2005 10:55 Comments || Top||

#6  Thats the problem with suicide belt bombers. They can be down, and can be shot, but as long as their alive, theres a chance they'll boom. Thats what the Israelis have found, and it looks like the brits have learned from it. I sympathize with the police, who face such dilemmas.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 07/22/2005 11:02 Comments || Top||

#7  Red Ken Livingstone has just been on Sky News.

He said that if people had a replica gun and threatened someone, the police would have no idea whether it was real or not and the person with the replica would probably come off worse.

He also said that in the case of a suicide bomber, they can still trigger the explosives if wounded, so it's almost certain that a shoot-to-kill policy would be necessary. Amazing! - I'd love to replay this back to him the next time the Israelis kill a suicide bomber.

He also mentioned that the during the 70's-90's when the IRA were having their fun, that it didn't stop London carrying on. And this from someone who played host to Sinn Fein during the height of the bombings!

He also alluded to the Blitz.

I believe the phrase is 'chutzpah'.
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 07/22/2005 11:23 Comments || Top||

#8  Is England back!? Now we need just need to get the British ACLU and one of these nice bombers in the same place and turn our backs and let them blow themselves up. Than we can move on with the war on terror!!
Posted by: Shaish Whack3823 || 07/22/2005 11:28 Comments || Top||

#9  When they have "SHOO TO KILL ORDERS" re: terrorists. They ain't kidding.
Not to be frivolous on a serious matter, but it seems like Tony Blair put the CI5 and Cowley in charge of this.
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 07/22/2005 11:50 Comments || Top||

#10  so true so true! blair needs to step down and a stronger PM needs to be put in place!
Posted by: Shaish Whack3823 || 07/22/2005 12:05 Comments || Top||

#11  "He half tripped... they pushed him to the floor and basically unloaded five shots into him,"

Is it bad to have a smile over this?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 07/22/2005 12:05 Comments || Top||

#12  Livingstone is ignorant. Paleos terrorists dont need to trigger anything it's precisely the inverse that happens. When the finger is released from pressed button it explodes. So killing him can make it explode. So the shotting must be wise.
Posted by: Hupomoque Spoluter7949 || 07/22/2005 12:18 Comments || Top||

#13  I sympathize with the police, who face such dilemmas.

Dilemmas?
Posted by: Shipman || 07/22/2005 12:28 Comments || Top||

#14  Good riddance Tube Man.
Posted by: Ulaper Ebbise7768 || 07/22/2005 12:54 Comments || Top||

#15  London Mayor Ken Livingstone said a shoot-to-kill policy was "overwhelmingly" the way to deal with suspected suicide bombers after police shot a man dead on the subway.

"If you are dealing with someone who might be a suicide bomber, if they remain conscious they could trigger plastic explosives or whatever device is on them," Livingstone said.

....

"Therefore overwhelmingly in these circumstances it is going to be a shoot-to-kill policy."

Posted by: liberalhawk || 07/22/2005 15:18 Comments || Top||

#16  "I sympathize with the police, who face such dilemmas.

Dilemmas?"

Yup. what if it IS an innocent idiot, who paniced and ran, even though that was clearly the stupid thing to do. Maybe dilemma wasnt the right word, since there really isnt a choice as to action.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 07/22/2005 15:20 Comments || Top||

#17  Once in my life I was in the wrong place with the wrong guys when a cop shouted "Stop". I stopped. I don't have much sympathy for those who run. Maybe I should. Maybe I used to?

The instigator kept walking and was not arrested. Talk about chutzpah!
Posted by: Bobby || 07/22/2005 15:58 Comments || Top||

#18  If you panic and run when armed police are yelling "Halt" or "Stop" right after a series of terrorist bombing, and you get your head blown off, Tough!!! Just another Darwin Award, LH.
Posted by: Shieldwolf || 07/22/2005 16:05 Comments || Top||

#19  Thanks, lh, for revealing where your preferences lie.

"WHAT IF" it was an innocent? you know, a random guy just coming out of a house under surveillance because of the latest terrorist attacks, and who happens --totally unwittingly-- to walk around in super-hot weather with a thick winter coat.
WHOA! HEY! That's got to be an innocent! And oooh, the dilemma! 'e caan't be assuumed not to be! Innocent!


Your desire to excuse and defend Islamofascists and criticize Western self-defense is wearing thin.
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 07/22/2005 18:07 Comments || Top||

#20  Such a shame. He just got his assignment to his midnight basketball league...
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/22/2005 18:15 Comments || Top||

#21  Whew! Yucatan not enough, Emily?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 07/22/2005 18:19 Comments || Top||

#22  *urp*

Oh, hi Dave. Been a little busy lately...
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/22/2005 18:31 Comments || Top||

#23  Er, Mrs. Davis. Need to get my glasses checked. Eye's getting a little fuzzy, see.
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/22/2005 18:35 Comments || Top||

#24  Lasik - Worked for me.
Posted by: 3dc || 07/22/2005 18:39 Comments || Top||

#25  Yup. what if it IS an innocent idiot, who paniced and ran, even though that was clearly the stupid thing to do.

"Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." -- Heinlein

"Think of it as evolution in action." -- Niven and Pournelle

I won't cry for someone who refuses to obey one of the most basic rules of society -- cooperation with law enforcement. Britain's police are not acting randomly, and Britain is under attack. Failure to comprehend that -- and act accordingly -- is as stupid as sticking your tongue in a light socket while you're standing in a filled tub.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 07/22/2005 18:40 Comments || Top||

#26  many thanks Emily, they say the remnants will make it up here (enegizing over the warm gulf of California waters) to San Diego and provide extra humidity to our heat wave. THANKS. Saw Robert Plant in concert by the bay last night, wearing tanktop, shorts, and Tevas, and still sweating
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 18:42 Comments || Top||


Officials: Backpacks, explosives identical to those of July 7 attackers
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 07/22/2005 03:18 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Time to follow basic American high school security procedures, only clear backpacks are permitted beyond the entrance to the tube. Now is that really difficult? Duh.
Posted by: Omolush Flomp5333 || 07/22/2005 8:51 Comments || Top||

#2  Oh, but someone will see the porno mags I take to work!
Posted by: Worried Willy Wanker || 07/22/2005 16:00 Comments || Top||


'SUICIDE BOMBER' SHOT
Triplicate post, same source, Shep got there first by 3 minutes. I left this one with the comments.
Police have shot a suspected suicide bomber at a tube station in south London. Marksmen opened fire near Stockwell Tube station as passengers were evacuated.
"[BANG!] Stop or we'll shoot!"
It is thought the man was killed. Passenger Briony Coetsee said: "We were on the Tube and then we suddenly heard someone say 'get out, get out' and then we heard gunshots."
"Roger! Wot's that sound?"
"Gunshots, Clive!"
Sky News Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt said: "There is no word on whether he has been killed or simply injured."
"He's dead, Jim Martin"
If the suspect is confirmed to be a suicide bomber, it would mark the fifth attempted terrorist attack on London in less than a day. A Scotland Yard spokesman said: "We can confirm that just after 10am today armed officers shot a male at Stockwell underground station." The man is thought to have been either stepping on to the train or was on the platform. Brunt said: "He was probably shot in the head. There is no confirmation of that."
"Nice shot, Trevor. Jolly good."
"Quite, old boy, quite."
Police have been given orders to shoot to kill if they believe someone is about to detonate a bomb. Brunt said "The officer or officers involved in this clearly felt this suspect was about to detonate a bomb."
"Hmmm... It's July 22nd. Kind of hot outside. That fellow's wearing a parka. There's sweat streaming down his face. He's rolling his eyes and grimacing. There's a lighted fuse between his shoulder blades... Oh, what shall I do?"
Tube services on the Victoria and Northern Lines were suspended at the request of police.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 05:55 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I forgot the hattip to Shep UK.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 5:58 Comments || Top||

#2  Hehehe bang bang bang...we don't take no prisoners...UK police is doing a good job.
Posted by: Dutchgeek || 07/22/2005 6:03 Comments || Top||

#3  And now armed police have surrounded a mosque in east london.

Does the met have a bulldozer squad?
Posted by: Elliot Swan || 07/22/2005 6:06 Comments || Top||

#4  A big RB 'bang bang bangety bang' Let's have some more..
Posted by: Howard UK || 07/22/2005 6:08 Comments || Top||

#5  Does the met have a bulldozer squad?

Preferently a Caterpillar. Still better if it is a Rachel Corrie model.
Posted by: JFM || 07/22/2005 6:10 Comments || Top||

#6  Their bombs don't work and their soldiers get shot....this must be a big mental blow...
Posted by: Dutchgeek || 07/22/2005 6:14 Comments || Top||

#7  Reports said the suspect was pushed to the ground and shot five times at close range.

Yikes. The fascist sympathizers will have a field day with this one. Talk about becoming a martyr.
Posted by: gromky || 07/22/2005 6:14 Comments || Top||

#8  Maybe he was wired and they just had to take him down....
Posted by: Dutchgeek || 07/22/2005 6:18 Comments || Top||

#9  It's going to make it harder to question him, though...
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/22/2005 6:27 Comments || Top||

#10  There was a bit of a "contreversy" in 200-2001 when the "Vrai journal", a leftist "unPC" tv show depicted an israeli shooting a would-be suicide bomber in the head at point-blank range while he was held lying down; fact is, the paleo was rubbing his belly to the ground, trying to set off the detonation of his belt. This is a good reminder than when facing people who wish to die, taking others with them, it is not the time to be squeamish. If police shooted down that guy in cold blood, I say good for them, no sense in risking a bloodbath by playing by their rules.

They want to be barbarian? Let them taste the legitimate use of force by trained people... tougher than slaughtering innocents, isn't it?
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 07/22/2005 6:27 Comments || Top||

#11  Better safe than sorry. Especially if there are people in the blast zone. Place would have been crowded. Wonder if they'd been tailing him for long. They might already know all they need to about the guy - could have been following him from the moment he left his house...
Posted by: Bulldog || 07/22/2005 6:29 Comments || Top||

#12  BBC news - "I saw an Asian guy run onto the train hotly pursued by three plain-clothes police officers.

"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him.


BTW, 'Asian' in the UK means south asian, rather than east asian as it does elsewhere.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 6:30 Comments || Top||

#13  BTW, 'Asian' in the UK means south asian, rather than east asian as it does elsewhere.

Indeed. That's where the vast majority of our Asians are from, so it kinda makes sense...
Posted by: Bulldog || 07/22/2005 6:32 Comments || Top||

#14  Now they have surrounded a mosque in East London (who woulda thunk?)

Perhaps the imam should be similarly dispatched.
Posted by: DanNY || 07/22/2005 6:33 Comments || Top||

#15  So when do we see the first person asking if it would have been right to shoot from such a close range??? Anyone?
Posted by: Dutchgeek || 07/22/2005 6:36 Comments || Top||

#16  More like "Why did it take five shots in the head?"
Posted by: DanNY || 07/22/2005 6:38 Comments || Top||

#17  I imagine Shama Chakrabati and Liberty are going to be salivating over this incident. Fuck 'em.
Posted by: Howard UK || 07/22/2005 6:41 Comments || Top||

#18  Bulldog, I've worked a lot with non-english speakers and the fact we use the same word to mean different things in different places baffles the hell out of them.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 6:43 Comments || Top||

#19  The Beeb has a solid eyewitness account that they've not had time to spin yet. They also just had their eyewitness on the tube. He's at a bar "having a nice stiff scotch." Good man. ;)
Posted by: AzCat || 07/22/2005 6:54 Comments || Top||

#20  They're reporting that the mosque was evacuated due to a bomb scare but nothing was found.
Posted by: AzCat || 07/22/2005 6:57 Comments || Top||

#21  Note this almost 24 hours after the 4 dud bombs, so I doubt this one of those boomers on the run. Sounds like another bomber.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 6:59 Comments || Top||

#22  Sounds like it Phil.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/22/2005 7:01 Comments || Top||

#23  Opps I meant, sounds like they were following one of yesterdays dud boys.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/22/2005 7:02 Comments || Top||

#24  There's a bloke on Sky News at the moment (an ex-Special Branch Officer) saying that this can be blamed on the 60's-70's 'Paki-Bashing' and how these kids would then be susceptible to AQ influences. Hmmmm...

He's just said that AQ are 'Head-hunting' these people - somewhat of an 'insensitive comment' considering what's happened today ;)
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 07/22/2005 7:16 Comments || Top||

#25  Also, Sky is reporting that the home of the black suicide bomber from two weeks ago has been the target of an arson attack.
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 07/22/2005 7:18 Comments || Top||

#26  I wonder how long it will take for the Usual Useful Idiots to start calling this an "execution-style murder" by the police...
Posted by: Dave D. || 07/22/2005 7:22 Comments || Top||

#27  The news feeds are virtually raw - they're asking people their names on air and mobile phone numbers too!

The bloke that saw the shooting has been taken away by the Special Branch (you didn't see nuffink - ok?).

Apparently there were up to eight armed coppers on the tube at Stockwell - the bomber seems to have been under surveillance.
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 07/22/2005 7:25 Comments || Top||

#28  Time to get the Socialists out! Blame it on the police and society .....The terrorists had no other choise than to blow up.....
Posted by: Dutchgeek || 07/22/2005 7:28 Comments || Top||

#29  DutchGeek, I was *just* thinking that - we need a leader with balls, like Thatcher! :) - we *don't* need any more Gramscian Socialist clap-trap.

I do wonder what would happen if the UK was a concealed-carry society? Would the 7/7 attacks have had a chance of taking place?

What would be the likelihood of a suicide attack in somewhere like Texas where lots of peope are armed?
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 07/22/2005 7:38 Comments || Top||

#30  - the bomber seems to have been under surveillance.

ok son, you're free to go. Saay, here' a nice new belt for you to wear and some tickets for the tube. Run along now, and if anyone tells you to stop - you just keep right on going. Cheery-oh
Posted by: 2b || 07/22/2005 7:41 Comments || Top||

#31  sian man with big rucksack,beard and shaven head getting chased through station- lept a barrier with about 9 or 10 plain clothed armed men chasing him,eye wittnesses on t.v say he was like a scared rabbit being chased,think he got onto the train ,the guys chasing ran in told everyone to gett out and then zapped him with 3 rouns- mp5 would that be on semi auto? i dont know guns but sounds like it could be. we was straight away but air ambulance went there apparently.real stuff of movies people say like a film. perhaps one of yesterdays failed Osamanauts that was hunted down like a rabid animal. Very good news though.give the guys who chased the fcker a prize/medal. No pack of 'Sun-Maid' raisens for this gy haha
Posted by: Shep UK || 07/22/2005 7:42 Comments || Top||

#32  The point I try to make is that we see the same patterns here in Europe and the UK. Always those "experts" or weak politiciance telling us it that it is our fault that those terrorist act in this way. Well they don't care about arms they care about becoming a martyr or not...so as long as Texans marinate their bullets in pigs fat they'll stay away....general Pershing did the same in the Philipines...
Posted by: Dutchgeek || 07/22/2005 7:48 Comments || Top||

#33  A good comparison is Israel, where a lot of people are armed, but where the *best* weapon against suicide bombers is public awareness, cf. security guards, concerned citizens,... who managed to spot, and even sometimes to repel attacks before they happen, or died trying.

That everyone pack is not a big plus, what's important is that people can detect telltale signs, read body language, profile wisely,... and even in a battle-hardened society like Israel, with a long military draft, with effective security services that handle well the threat, would-be bombers are very sophisticated (posing as orthodox jews, soldiers,...) and still manage to slip through the net.

This public awareness goes also for the aftermath; soldiers on leave often carry first aid kits to help the wounded if they happen to be present, bystanders know how to help, rescue services are instantly deployed and aware of the dirty tricks of the terrs (second wave attacks on them),...

Frankly, I doubt the western public would be so seasoned and prepared, concealed carry or not.
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 07/22/2005 7:52 Comments || Top||

#34  Dutchgeek, the Fox reporter was way ahead of you earlier this morning. " What if he was innocent? If he had a bomb, why didn't it go off when he was killed? Everybody knows suicide bombers ALWAYS have their bombes rigged to blow up if they are killed before they can set it off." Totally wanking aswipe of a reporter.
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 07/22/2005 7:56 Comments || Top||

#35  It's a bit troubling since they usually planned these things as coordinated attacks. Are they so disrupted that they are acting on their own? Or?
Posted by: 2b || 07/22/2005 7:57 Comments || Top||

#36  DanNY:
re "Why did it take five shots in the head?"

Maybe that's all the rounds he had in his gun for some reason?
Posted by: glenmore || 07/22/2005 8:00 Comments || Top||

#37  2b my money says that this is one of yesterday's failed splodeydopes back with a fresh load. Even as stupid as jihadis are surely they'd know that the day after an attempted attack would be absolutely the worst possible time to follow up with another.
Posted by: AzCat || 07/22/2005 8:14 Comments || Top||

#38  "What would be the likelihood of a suicide attack in somewhere like Texas where lots of peope are armed?"

I don't think it would really make very much difference in a case like this.

Burglaries and home invasions, now that's a different story...
Posted by: Dave D. || 07/22/2005 8:28 Comments || Top||

#39  Paki with a packy = fill with lead until dead?
Posted by: OldSpook || 07/22/2005 8:33 Comments || Top||

#40  Azcat, you are falling into the same error as everyone else - treating this as an isolated incident. What is happening is AQ/Jihadi Inc/the Evil Materminds are scaling up to a repeatable process. It just took them longer than it would most others.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 8:41 Comments || Top||

#41  SKY: Man was not carrying bomb. He was firm suspect in London bombing, police followed him from home, he was wearing a heavy coat. He ran into subway and vaulted over ticket stile. Cops chased him down and when he wouldn't stop shot him dead.
Posted by: Steve || 07/22/2005 8:42 Comments || Top||

#42  Sorry Steve, but I don't believe this. The eyewitnesses clearly say he was down with officers on top of him before he was shot. Either they believed he was a boomer or someone got triggerhappy. And why the heavy coat in the hot weather - hell of a disguise!
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 8:47 Comments || Top||

#43  They didn't know he wasn't carrying a bomb vest under that coat, he was the suspect of the Oval Street booming yesterday. Yes, they did cap him after he was down, so what? You have to kill them before they can trigger the device.
Posted by: Steve || 07/22/2005 8:52 Comments || Top||

#44  How is that incompatible with the Sky account, Phil? He was under observation, left house dressed 'to kill', got to the tube before he could be intercepted, made a break for it, tripped/took one in the leg, fell, was immobilised bodily, and plugged to be sure. How would they know he was running to avoid capture or so he could buy time to prepare to blow himself? No trigger-happiness required. Perfectly rational.
Posted by: Bulldog || 07/22/2005 8:53 Comments || Top||

#45  Flasher maybe? hehe couldnt resist, perhaps Allan told him to go flashing
Posted by: Shep UK || 07/22/2005 8:54 Comments || Top||

#46  Sky is showing a live feed from a Mosque in Birmingham, with a voiceover by some guy who actually said that maybe they ought to look at the fact that the Koran was written 1400+ years ago "a product of its time". The Imam sounds like a real fire and brimstone guy - lots of shouting.

Whilst he's saying this, a poll popped up asking whether Muslims thought of themselves as British or Muslim - the result:
46% - Muslim first
42% - No preference
12% - British
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 07/22/2005 8:55 Comments || Top||

#47  I bet the investigators are pissed.
Posted by: 2b || 07/22/2005 8:55 Comments || Top||

#48  I bet the investigators are pissed.

'Suicide by cop', maybe? They could hardly have taken him alive. A good result, but still no cigar raisins.
Posted by: Bulldog || 07/22/2005 8:58 Comments || Top||

#49  Cliches are cliches because they are often true. They always return to the scene of the crime.
Posted by: Tibor || 07/22/2005 9:01 Comments || Top||

#50  'Suicide by cop', maybe? He certainly was high profile, jumping the turnstiles and all. If he didn't have a bomb - why not just stop. I prefer to think of it as a crossfire incident :-)
Posted by: 2b || 07/22/2005 9:01 Comments || Top||

#51  Cops chased him down and when he wouldn't stop shot him dead. The eyewitnesses clearly say he was stopped with cops on top of him. Maybe he was dressed for the boom, without the bomb vest. Personally I doubt it. I think he had the vest and the police are managing the news.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 9:02 Comments || Top||

#52  No Phil, I agree with you that what we're seeing is at least an attempt to scale this up into a regular routine but, assuming that the London jihadis have limited resources (i.e., a limited number of potential splodeydopes) it doesn't make sense that this would be a different individual because: 1) today would be the worst time to try this if you actually wanted to succeed as everyone's still on a hair trigger after yesterday; and 2) terrorism works by keeping the public scared, another boom today might scare the public but if the intrepid jihadi were to wait a few weeks before attempting to earn his raisins the tactic would be more effective because it would re-raise public fears just as they were subsiding. But there is a clear error in my thinking: I attribute some semblance of logic to the jihadis.
Posted by: AzCat || 07/22/2005 9:10 Comments || Top||

#53  No doubt another "good lad" as would be the other perp's. Surely nobody close to them had any idea at all either. The boys just got a little enraged about something and figured their religion required mass murder of innocent civilians among their countrymen. Makes perfect sense. The polls about UK muslim attitudes are telling. The Root Cause is what? Where is surrender weasel Galloway and his peers when a pummeling bag is needed?
Posted by: MunkarKat || 07/22/2005 9:12 Comments || Top||

#54  In 1993 in France a guy wired himself with explosives and took hostage a class of kindergarten children. Police dragged the negotiations until he feel asleep. Then they evacuated the children and shot the guy. The day after a woman friend of mine complained they should have tried to take him alive. Yeah right, the officers should have risked their lives for sparing a guy ready to cmmit mass murder on children.
Posted by: JFM || 07/22/2005 9:12 Comments || Top||

#55  Update - police attending 'incident' in the Harrow Road (North London) - with snipers. Also report of 'incident' at Moorgate (probably a tube station)
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 07/22/2005 9:19 Comments || Top||

#56  No one can out run Mr. Heckler and Mr. Koch!

My $.02 on Tony(UK)'s question about concealed carry: I've got to agree with Dave D. and anonymous5089 for the most part. CCW is really best suited for reacting to unexpected personal danger rather than preventing determined acts of terrorism. Also the attacks such as 7/7 will always be hard to interdict in a free society. As long as the boomers can keep their cool and not draw a lot of attention, what citizen could reasonably pull their weapon and subdue every 'Asian' they encounter?

However comma I will contradict myself a little. While I don't think CCW makes the odds good that attacks like 7/7 can be stopped, I do think that CCW increases the odds slightly in favor of prevention.

The weighty responsibility of carrying concealed does tend to make one much more observant and threat-aware. As anonymous5089 stated, awareness is the best weapon. But CCW also gives one the means to do something about the threat other than shouting, "Run". I have heard anecdotal evidence of concealed-carry Israeli citizens stopping terrorist attacks in a similar fashion.

In summary, I think CCW would certainly help, but the terrorists always hold the initiative in these sorts of situations.

PyschoHillbilly
Confessions of a Redneck Gun Nut
Posted by: Psycho Hillbilly || 07/22/2005 9:21 Comments || Top||

#57  Azcat, I think you are perhaps the smartest regular here but there are a bunch of errors in that opinion. A repeatable process optimizes scarce/limited resources and that is not splodeydopes. The scarce resource is organizers/organization and technicians/bombmakers. This is all about tempo and people who know far more than me, emphasize the importance of tempo in military affairs. This has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with capacity. They are demonstrating their capacity.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 9:24 Comments || Top||

#58  Harrow Road resident tells the BBC police have told residents to stay indoors. He says there is a large police presence, which includes armed officers....shots fired according to witness....developing
Posted by: Dutchgeek || 07/22/2005 9:36 Comments || Top||

#59  I've just been thinking about this wanking that we will hear about the poor jihadi getting shot and it's really starting to tick me off.

Let me just say, for the record, that if I ever find myself ontop of a known AQ jihadi, suspected of having a bomb, if I don't have a gun to unload on him, I'll use a darn pencil if that's all I have available. These people make me sick.
Posted by: 2b || 07/22/2005 9:54 Comments || Top||

#60  Phil B identifies the targets to be taken down: the organizers and the bombmakers. For these guys: no warning, no mercy, no second chance. Bang.

Phil, let me add to the list: the holy men behind these jokers.
Posted by: Steve White || 07/22/2005 9:59 Comments || Top||

#61  I suspect that after John Howards' spinal injection yesterday Tony may well stand up forthrightly for what the coppers did. Shoot first, ask questions later is bad policy in law enforcement but not war.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 07/22/2005 10:06 Comments || Top||

#62  Whilst he's saying this, a poll popped up asking whether Muslims thought of themselves as British or Muslim - the result:

46% - Muslim first
42% - No preference
12% - British


Those are VERY discouraging numbers, in my opinion. They say, in other words, that only one British Muslim in 8 can be considered one of our much-prized "Moderate Muslims" without qualification.

Not good.

And I agree with Dr. Steve: pop the radical "holy men", too.
Posted by: Dave D. || 07/22/2005 10:11 Comments || Top||

#63  Phil I am, almost without a doubt, the dumbest regular here but (doubtless much to the chagrin of many) that's not yet had any impact on my urge to comment. ;)

Point taken re: resources but I think you're mistaken in analyzing this as a military affair. Terrorism is about frightening the public in order to cause the most disruption to their daily lives and impart the greatest psychological impact. Even if we assume that demonstrating tempo was the primary motive the jihadis showed their hand yesterday: 4 bombs (probably made from the same batch as the 7/7 explosive), 3 on tubes, 1 on a bus (all identical to 7/7 MO), same backpacks & explosives as 7/7 bombers. Clearly yesterday's actions were a demonstration of the repeatability of their 7/7 tactics and were intended as such.

But after going 0-for-4 yesterday I’m more inclined to believe that today's jihadi moron is more likely a Darwin Award candidate (4 fizzles / no booms yesterday, gee let’s try the rest of the batch … surely it’ll work better) than a demonstration of daily repeatability.
Posted by: AzCat || 07/22/2005 10:14 Comments || Top||

#64  My wager is that he was a dud killbot released specifically to draw enemy fire and make a big stinky public relations mess.
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/22/2005 10:52 Comments || Top||

#65  Well, that didn't take long...

Will police now shoot to kill?


A Muslim group has said it is concerned there is a new police "shoot to kill" policy in the UK following the shooting dead of a man in south London.
The Muslim Council of Britain said it was getting calls from Muslims who were "distressed" about the incident at Stockwell Tube station.


In the same article, Micheal Clarke, professor of defence studies at King's College London says;

"These guys may have been some sort of plain clothes special forces," he said.

"To have bullets pumped into him like this suggests quite a lot about him and what the authorities, whoever they are, assumed about him.

"The fact that he was shot in this way strongly suggests that it was someone the authorities knew and suspected he was carrying explosives on him."

He added: "You don't shoot somebody five times if you think you might have made a mistake and may be able to arrest him."

Prof Clarke said police officers were not trained to carry out operations in this way.

"Even Special Branch and SO19 (Scotland Yard's armed unit) are not trained to do this sort of thing.

"It's plausible that they were special forces or elements of special forces."

Mr Ramm said the danger of shooting a suspected suicide bomber in the body was that it could detonate a bomb they were carrying on them.

"The fact is that when you're dealing with suicide bombers they only way you can stop them effectively - and protect yourself - is to try for a head-shot," he said.


If he *is* innocent - big if, then it's regrettable. But you don't run away from armed police with the situation as it is today - that really *is* suicide.
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 07/22/2005 11:03 Comments || Top||

#66  BBC and CNN have run CCTV pics of the four "good lads" suspected in the day's boomer spree. Don't look like a bunch of Finns named Radar. Bet they are not Jehova's Witnesses either.
Posted by: MunkarKat || 07/22/2005 11:09 Comments || Top||

#67  I think this may have been an intelligence operation from the jihadi side. This guy may have been one of the escaped (or released) terr's from yesterday. The Jihadi's know that the UK has the whole town under survailence, and they needed to know how much the police forces knew. By parading this guy out - others in the jihadi network could determine if they were followed, and the reaction to this guys bolting in the underground let everyone know that the police forces knew EXACTLY who this guy was.

The jig is up - no more covert intelligence on the jihadi's by following the get-a-aways, might as well surround the moskkk where they came from.

That's my $.02

BTW - I don't comment much, but I visit quite regularly - This site ROCKS - keep it up
Posted by: Robjack01 || 07/22/2005 11:20 Comments || Top||

#68  Innocent of what? Clearly, if they thought they needed to do this, it will turn out he was no innocent, regardless of his status with respect to any specific violation of the law.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 07/22/2005 11:22 Comments || Top||

#69  Bhuddists?
Posted by: Ulereger Clavigum6227 || 07/22/2005 11:26 Comments || Top||

#70  mrs D is correct - theres innocent, and innocent. Even if he wasnt carrying a suicide belt, he almost certainly was connected to the existing investigation, which is why he was being followed. Certainly shoot to kill should be reserved for actual suspected bombers, but one really cant say hes innocent only because hes not wearing a suicide belt (if that turns out to be the case)
Posted by: liberalhawk || 07/22/2005 11:30 Comments || Top||

#71  Dave D, the 1 in 8 statistics of British Moslems who seem to think of their religious belief as second to their nationality is not a sufficient sign of "moderate" Moslems. We have to take into account the Moslem habit of deception, taqiya.

The only reliable sign of a "moderate" Moslem would be someone who explicitly acknowledges and rejects taqiya, jihad as well as sharia --the tools of Islamic conquest and submission.

I'd like to see polls focused on these very specific attributes.
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 07/22/2005 11:34 Comments || Top||

#72  I know, Kalle; I was being generous.
Posted by: Dave D. || 07/22/2005 11:38 Comments || Top||

#73  Cry me a f*&king river. Pakis in Britain are facing a real fork in the road. Time to decide whether you give up the bad apples and the sources of infection, or face intolerance and hardship on a national scale. Reality bites, doesn't it? LH's mythical moderate muslim better step forward now, cuz heads are gonna get busted, that's just a fact
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 11:38 Comments || Top||

#74  Certainly shoot to kill should be reserved for actual suspected bombers...

Based on recent events, you could include any man of Asian appearance carrying a bag in that category.
Posted by: Bulldog || 07/22/2005 11:40 Comments || Top||

#75  Sorry Mrs. Davis, I wasn't being clear enough, I don't believe this guy was innocent *at all* - the response from the talking heads to what the police did has been almost shock - the coppers here simply don't do that. So if they have done something like that, then the chances are very very heavily in favour of this guy *not* being innocent.

In the current situation, if an armed copper tells you to stop - you'd better stop otherwise you're going to be very dead. And I will certainly cheer for that.
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 07/22/2005 11:43 Comments || Top||

#76  Tony, Understood. My point is really one about transitioning (sp? 2 n's?) from the law enforcement model to the combat model.

We are at war. Shoot first, ask questions later. I hope that is the policy and the message Tony B uses to explain what happened and why it will happen again to any enemy combatants. No apologies, no regrets, no excuses. Just another KIA.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 07/22/2005 12:04 Comments || Top||

#77  I think whether they consider them Moslems first or British first is immaterial. For example though I am a proud American I first and foremost consider myself Christian. The issue is that being moslem is so at odds with society, it seems me like they have to choose one and destroy the other.
Posted by: AmbiguityX || 07/22/2005 12:09 Comments || Top||

#78  I think whether they consider them Moslems first or British first is immaterial. For example though I am a proud American I first and foremost consider myself Christian. The issue is that being moslem is so at odds with society, it seems me like they have to choose one and destroy the other.
Posted by: AmbiguityX || 07/22/2005 12:23 Comments || Top||

#79  I agree with the theory was wasn't no SO19 fireteam gunnin this fcker down,i too reackon some kind of military team, i'm gonna be cheesy as and say SAS but doubt it,any ideas on it anyone? will the pics ever be released of his headless - i assume torso? i do think uk anti terror guys need bigger cal weapons , 50cal sniper rifles and stuff,i dunno just bigger hitters i guess, maybe same cal but a nastier ammo should be used? Allan worshipers say they now live in fear of getting lead zapped in London, best stay indoors then eh ,hehe. Man on sky news in street ranted about bush and how it was him to blame too :) its starting to ammuse me now.
Posted by: Glavins Glereting2921 || 07/22/2005 12:33 Comments || Top||

#80  Agree that the question is not very meaningful by itself, but the mode of answer is going to be different. The question changes implicit meaning according to one's beliefs.

Most Christians are happy with State and Church being separate realms. Personal salvation is a separate matter from political hegemony.

Moslems demand that all States be merged and integrated into their cult. Their vision of personal salvation is conditional on submission of all aspects of human life to their one political-religious authority. Hence a measure of their tolerance (call it "moderation" if you must) would be to ask them if the State in which they live should ultimately merge into Dar-al-Islam.

Here would be a useful project: what would constitute a modern, tolerant --''moderate"-- Moslem? what parts of traditional Islam would Western, peaceful people expect them to re-interpret or reject? and more importantly, are Moslems already working on it?
Posted by: Mohammed || 07/22/2005 12:38 Comments || Top||

#81  Sorry, that was me...
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 07/22/2005 12:49 Comments || Top||

#82  Whew. That's a relief...
Posted by: Dave D. || 07/22/2005 12:54 Comments || Top||

#83  I am betting regular armed police or a unknown and previously unknown police squad. 5 rounds to the head suggests 9mm.

The head of the Londom Metro police refers to "failure to follow police instructions." in his video statement.
Posted by: Sock Puppet 0’ Doom || 07/22/2005 14:09 Comments || Top||

#84  according the source I saw, the 42% wasnt "no preference" it was folks who saw no distinction between being muslim and being British. If someone asked me if I was Jewish or American first, id say they were compatible, being different kinds of identities (jewish peoplehood being different from simply a religion, but not really a nation in the conventional, modern, state focused sense.) The question itself would be a tad offensive. I suppose that would make me a fanatic, to y'all.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 07/22/2005 14:26 Comments || Top||

#85  "Moslems demand that all States be merged and integrated into their cult"

in fact since about 900 CE or so, the caliphate was nominal, and effectively there were multiple muslim states. And of course it was a MUSLIM, Kemal Attaturk, who abolished the caliphate, and proclaimed the independence of the Turkish state. Since then most muslims in muslim lands support their individual states. The caliphate is a dream of a small minority.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 07/22/2005 14:30 Comments || Top||

#86  Can we now expect a British edition of 'The Crossfire Gazette?"
Kill 'em all and let God, not Allan, sort 'em out.
Posted by: USN, ret. || 07/22/2005 14:32 Comments || Top||

#87  " Hence a measure of their tolerance (call it "moderation" if you must) would be to ask them if the State in which they live should ultimately merge into Dar-al-Islam."

No, cause they are a proselytizing religion,as is Christianity. Might as well ask evangelicals if Israel, or Iran, or New Guinea should eventually become part of the Christian world. They of course would not accept that those souls shouldnt be saved, though they wont advocate violence to accomplish it.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 07/22/2005 14:32 Comments || Top||

#88  "Based on recent events, you could include any man of Asian appearance carrying a bag in that category."

You suggest the police shoot everyone of Asian appearance carrying a bag?? Bad time to be a Hindu in Britain then.

Academic, anyway. This guy was being followed by police apparently cause they had solid leads tying him to the investigation.

Posted by: liberalhawk || 07/22/2005 14:35 Comments || Top||

#89  "from the law enforcement model to the combat model. "

lets see, forensic evidence, arrests, etc. I see UK still using the LE model. You want them to drop legal rights for EVERYONE suspected of terrorism, even when there isnt this kind of imminent threat. Id think you guys who are small govt types, and hardliners on muslims, might not like that kind of unlimited govt power. Dont think it wont be used against you one day (janet reno????) The UK tories are quite aware of that, from what I understand. is that not the case, Bulldog?

Posted by: liberalhawk || 07/22/2005 14:39 Comments || Top||

#90  proselytizing religion,as is Christianity. Might as well ask evangelicals if Israel, or Iran, or New Guinea should eventually become part of the Christian world.

What do you mean by that? There is no Greater Christian State at stake here. Certainly not in this time-space continuum. We advertise and people do with the information what they will.
Posted by: eLarson || 07/22/2005 14:50 Comments || Top||

#91  The primary effect of a CCW society is the uncertainty it creates for any criminal as to whether their prospective victim might actually be able to KILL them. This is true in the home or anywhere.

In Texas, we went to a CCW after the massacre in the Luby's in ...Waco. A woman whose parents were slaughtered ran for the Legislature, won and got the law passed. She said if she were armed, she had a chance to kill the killer.

It just changes the risk profile for any miscreant. I don't always carry, but now I ALWAYS keep an eye out.
Posted by: Brett || 07/22/2005 14:59 Comments || Top||

#92  And of course it was a MUSLIM, Kemal Attaturk, who abolished the caliphate

Attaturk was as Muslim as Iosef Stalin was Orthodox.

(Not comparing their actions, just the extent to which they followed the religions they were raised in.)
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 07/22/2005 15:26 Comments || Top||

#93  After identification, he should be buried together with a pig's head & a tree planted on his grave, so all the passing dogs could piss on him so all the potential suicide candidates will be sure that no 70 virgins will be waiting for them enywere, just dead pigs and dog's piss. The burial pictures should be posted on jihadist web sites and on all TV stations at prime time.
Posted by: nick7579 || 07/22/2005 15:28 Comments || Top||

#94  Finally!!! Some duly needed lead poisoning.

Nearing another 100 thread count.
Posted by: intrinsicpilot || 07/22/2005 15:29 Comments || Top||

#95  LH, it's a balancing act. You're right, Janet Reno already proved what can be done when there's not a crisis or a Patriot Act. Now there's a crisis. I'd move the slider bar away from the civil liberties side till we start to see some abuses. Padilla and Hamadi don't seem like abuses to me. The choice we've got is, how many innocent civilian lives are you willing to risk to preserve civil liberties?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 07/22/2005 15:45 Comments || Top||

#96  "LH, it's a balancing act. You're right, Janet Reno already proved what can be done when there's not a crisis or a Patriot Act. Now there's a crisis. I'd move the slider bar away from the civil liberties side till we start to see some abuses. Padilla and Hamadi don't seem like abuses to me. The choice we've got is, how many innocent civilian lives are you willing to risk to preserve civil liberties? "

I see the Patriot act as having already moved us from say, 4, to 5. UK say, stayed at 4, or even 3, and is now willing to move to 5. I detect some eagerness to move toward 9 or 10, on the part of some people here - people who reflexively take offense if you even breathe a mention of civil liberties in the context of measures to deal with terrorism.

And im not sure one slider is enough. You could get tougher on incitement to terror, and yet not make it easier for govts to monitor, say, library usage.

But I cant foresee us getting to a pont on the slider, where we dont have SOME LE element.

Take a look at the American Revolution. With a foreign army in occupation of New York, Charleston, and Savannah, with the existence of the nation at risk, most of the founding fathers defended treating with Tory civilians with due process of law, and resisted the harsher measures called for in some states.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 07/22/2005 15:54 Comments || Top||

#97  I would put money on the idea that the "police shooter" was actually SAS, probably from the Counter-Revolutionary Warfare Squadron. That was number 6, I think. Ask the terrorists in Aden how many of their guys met a double tap in the alleyways of the bazaar back in the days. Maybe one of the British readers can bring us up to speed on the new unit designations of David Stirling's boys.
Plus since the U.K. does not have a Posse Comitatus Act, the PM can activate the SAS for in-country action on his discretion.
Just remember Tony, "Who Dares Wins" :)
Posted by: Shieldwolf || 07/22/2005 15:56 Comments || Top||

#98  Agreed, LH. It will be a tough balance to strike. Especially when we lower the bar on "racial/national origin, age, sex, religious profiling." But until we start seeing real abuse or false positives, we'll move the sliders each time there is another incident. These clowns don't really uinderstand what it will mean when they push us to total war, but it can happen and they're doing everything they can to make it so. When we prevail, we can easily restore liberties suspended.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 07/22/2005 16:05 Comments || Top||

#99  I agree with Mrs. D. There IS a balance to be struck here. At the moment it seems rather tendentious to err on the side of abuses that MIGHT occur when actual abuses of murderous impact are occurring - and are being celebrated and encouraged - on the other side.

Acting against those ACTUAL abuses is important. Keeping an eye out and responding to abuses on the other side - *if and when* they occur - would be appropriate as well.
Posted by: too true || 07/22/2005 16:44 Comments || Top||

#100  The restauration of the Caliphate is a major goal of the Moslems, contrary to liberalhawk's disinformation.
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 07/22/2005 17:36 Comments || Top||

#101  bullseye
Posted by: Nockeyes Nilberforce || 07/22/2005 17:39 Comments || Top||

#102  restoration, since it's not about food
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 07/22/2005 17:42 Comments || Top||

#103  The head of the Londom Metro police refers to "failure to follow police instructions." in his video statement. At first I thought this was a reference to the person who fired the shots who I tend to agree could well be SAS and we were about to get a bout of police versus other security forces 'warfare' (The police resent the military being used for policing). I now realize this is a reference to the dead boomer.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 17:44 Comments || Top||

#104  Read Usama's audio tape transcripts that came in immediately after 3/11. He refers to the targets he outlines in Europe by their 15th century Muslim names. They've named all the targets, Italy is next.

He's still fighting a 15th century war, didn't anybody tell him his side lost already?

EP
Posted by: ElvisHasLeftTheBuilding || 07/22/2005 17:52 Comments || Top||

#105  No surprise that Osama(spit) refers to historical Moslem wars against Europe -- Moslems believe Allah(spit) wants them to wage war against all non-Moslem countries until everybody is either a convert or dead. They're just following their holy book.

Osama is playing the role of the guy who reminds everybody of what their duties are.
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 07/22/2005 18:20 Comments || Top||

#106 
"Take a look at the American Revolution. With a foreign army in occupation of New York, Charleston, and Savannah, with the existence of the nation at risk, most of the founding fathers defended treating with Tory civilians with due process of law, and resisted the harsher measures called for in some states."

What does any of this mean?
"With a foreign army in place..."--Uh, the Brits weren't "foreign" until we beat their butts back to Britain.
"...treating Tory civilians with due process of law..."--Again, we couldn't institute "due process of law" until we'd set up our republic, decided on those laws and set up our courts, which was considerably after the Revolutionary War.
..."resisted the measures called for in some states..."--More gibberish. How could "states" call for measures when there were no states?
Too fast and dirty with American "history," Mr. Appeaser.

How about this?
Democrat "Liberal" FDR put thousands of native Japanese enemy sympathizers in camps for the duration of WWII, just to be on the safe side.
Abe Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War without consent of Congress to prevent the harboring and abetting of the Confederate enemy, for the duration.
I love the Patriot Act and it can't be too strong, IMO.
Now if only we'd do some meaningful racial profiling, especially on planes, buses and on subways.
Posted by: Jennie Taliaferro || 07/22/2005 18:24 Comments || Top||

#107  You could get tougher on incitement to terror, and yet not make it easier for govts to monitor, say, library usage.

WTF is wrong with getting access to library usage records with a court order?

I just don't get the fetish with library records. Particularly when we know the jihadis use library computers to access the jihadi communication sites. Toss in the fact that libraries are PUBLIC spaces, paid for with PUBLIC funds, and I have a hard time seeing why we shouldn't treat actions taken in libraries as PUBLIC activities.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 07/22/2005 18:27 Comments || Top||

#108  "Here would be a useful project: what would constitute a modern, tolerant --''moderate"-- Moslem?"

I've been struggling with this question all afternoon, without much luck. The best answer I've been able to come up with is that he'd be a Muslim whose Islam is no more visible to the rest of us, than our own Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or atheism is visible to one another.

He'd be a Muslim who regards both his own belief in God and the belief (or lack of belief) of other people to be almost entirely a personal matter.

He'd be a Muslim for whom working with, eating with, or socializing with, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Hindus or atheists is no more traumatic (or even more significant) than it is for the rest of us, with one another. "To each his own" would be his mantra; or, better yet, "who cares?"

He'd be a Muslim for whom the concept of shariah is an outmoded, unpleasant anachronism.

Ditto for the notion of jihad; he'd consider it an ancient relic from the past, a concept that might have had meaning in the long-ago world of desperate struggles for survival in the desert against hostile, murderous neighbors-- but which is silly, even offensive, in the context of life among tolerant, modern Westerners.

He'd be a Muslim who reacts, upon hearing the word kaffir used to refer to non-Muslims, the way the rest of us react when we hear someone use the word "nigger". The term would be downright offensive to him.

And finally, he'd be a Muslim who, upon hearing that someone in his community is planning-- or even might be planning-- a terrorist attack on non-Muslims, would make a bee-line, at high speed, straight for the nearest police station.

"What parts of traditional Islam would Western, peaceful people expect them to re-interpret or reject?"

As best I can figure, damn near all of it.

"And more importantly, are Moslems already working on it?"

If they are, I don't see any signs of it.
Posted by: Dave D. || 07/22/2005 18:49 Comments || Top||

#109  If Abdallah the Moslem is uncomfortable with the violent, supremacist traditions of Islam -- what is he to do?

Devote and risk his life to be known as a "moderate" who strives to re-interpret Islam in the modern, tolerant Western framework of free societies? or give up Islam altogether so he can live free in the free world? what if he is told that leaving Islam is apostasy, punishable by death?

Maybe the MMM is mythical because to become "moderate" a Moslem needs to abandon his Moslem identity as such, and in order to do so he needs to get away from Moslem countries. Hence the lack of social-religious evolution and intelligence in the Moslem world? the good guys are either leaving these places, or dead?

Anecdote: a Pakistani friend of mine in his early 30s loves his freedom in the West. He will not return to Pakistan ever, and says it would be too dangerous for him, even on a holiday. He has simply rejected Islam, doesn't try to make excuses for it.
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 07/22/2005 19:11 Comments || Top||

#110  "If Abdallah the Moslem is uncomfortable with the violent, supremacist traditions of Islam -- what is he to do?"

That reminds me of something else to add to the list in #108:

He'd be a Muslim for whom the notion of propagating the faith "by the sword" is anachronistic and silly. One propagates faith by inspiration and persuasion, not by menace.

You know, I'm getting less and less optimistic about this "moderate Muslim" business with each passing day. YMMV, but that's the way it is for me.
Posted by: Dave D. || 07/22/2005 19:23 Comments || Top||

#111  I like your thoughts, Dave D. In other words, a moderate Muslim is one whose religion is personal and private. Truth to tell, I don't have a problem with him choosing Shariah for himself, with no thought about imposing it on society at large, much like Mormons don't drink alcohol, or Orthodox Jews keep kosher. The day a pair of Muslims ring my doorbell at 9 a.m. of a Saturday morning, hand me a copy of the Koran, and try to convert me by force of argument alone, is the day I'll start to believe we've won.
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/22/2005 19:32 Comments || Top||

#112  Exactly. And from what I've seen so far, I am definitely not going to hold my breath waiting for it to happen.
Posted by: Dave D. || 07/22/2005 19:37 Comments || Top||

#113  no way! LH seems to know entire colonies of moderate muslims....they're undercover....double secret undercover...almost Plame-like
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 19:42 Comments || Top||

#114  Stealth Moderates?
Posted by: Dave D. || 07/22/2005 19:47 Comments || Top||

#115  :-)
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 19:50 Comments || Top||


Experts: Latest London Blasts Amateurish
Picked right up on that, didn't they?
The explosions that struck London subway trains and a bus Thursday appeared less sophisticated than the deadly attacks that hit the British capital two weeks ago, terrorism experts said.
I'd guess the Brit cops have so many people either under surveillance or rounded up that the Bad Guyz had to bring up some minor leaguers.
Explosions forced the evacuations of three Underground train stations and hit a double-decker bus early Thursday afternoon, authorities said. They reported one person injured. In the July 7 attacks, four suicide bombers killed 52 other people on three Underground trains and a bus. Jeremy Binnie, an analyst with the London-based Jane's Terrorism and Insurgency Center, said there were key differences between Thursday's explosions and the previous blasts.
Not much gets by old Jeremy...
The latest ones did not take place at rush hour, they targeted more outlying stations, and "if there were bombs, they seem to have been duds," Binnie said. "It seems much more amateurish in many ways," he told The Associated Press. That could suggest they were a copycat operation, but Binnie cautioned that it was too early to tell. He noted that investigations into the July 7 blasts showed signs there could be a second cell in existence.
Yeah, but I'm guessing it's Islamic copycats...
Posted by: Fred || 07/22/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I am guessing this will turn out to be the gang who could not bomb straight and they will all be in custody shortly, found floating in the Thames, cut into small peices or ,to have left on a quick vacation to France then on to Pakistan from there.
Posted by: Sock Puppet 0’ Doom || 07/22/2005 0:09 Comments || Top||

#2  Probably hired a bunch of small time thugs for the job.
Posted by: Pappy || 07/22/2005 0:38 Comments || Top||

#3  "..appeared less sophisticated.."

it's sad that any and all bombs no matter how sophisticated they are can be deadly.

Must be practice runs....
Posted by: Jan || 07/22/2005 1:17 Comments || Top||

#4  As far as I can see it was almost identical, probably including using explosives and detonators from the same (homemade) batch. The only difference was 2 weeks had elapsed and the explosives had deteriorated.

This is little more than wishful thinking by people who are in denial that AQ has for the first time in the West achieved repeatable coordinated bomb attacks. Its just they got a minor detail wrong. A mistake they won't repeat.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 1:29 Comments || Top||

#5  Al-Qaeda Lite at work.
Posted by: Vlad the Muslim Impaler || 07/22/2005 3:04 Comments || Top||

#6  Who do your think the suspects will end up being? Hmmmm.
Posted by: MunkarKat || 07/22/2005 8:01 Comments || Top||

#7  A group linked to al Qaeda has claimed responsibility for the latest London bombings, as forensic teams examine the rucksack bombs found on a bus and in Tube trains. The group, Abu Hafs al Masri Brigade, also claimed responsibility for the explosions on July 7.
Posted by: 2b || 07/22/2005 8:06 Comments || Top||

#8  I know its easy to make fun of these guys, but if weren't for the fact that bombs were duds this could have been very deadly. Just two weeks after the 7/7 attacks this group got four bombs into position exactly the same way the previous group did.

It's a miracle that the bombs didn't work. That's the only reason the hospitals weren't filled up again.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 07/22/2005 13:03 Comments || Top||

#9  Agree with Phil_b and LoTR. From press acounts, it seems that the blasting caps went off but not the explosive (muffled bang, clouds of white dust). I couldn't find anything on the web, but from the Richard Reid case, I remember that the sweat from his feet rendered the acetone peroxide harmless. It summer, its humid and its been two weeks and a day (minimum) since the mother of satan was brewed. The second wave of bombers were probably hiding out in safehouse with no airconditioning. Thus pop instead of boom.

I also don't see this as a sign of amatuerism. Explosives were made, packaged and staged. Two different bomber cells were recruited, trained (sent to Pakistan?), given their orders, rehearsed and echeloned. Probably at least one mid level operative in overall control of the in country effort with one controller and/or imam for each of the cells. Probably a high level operative (on a Khalid Sheikh Mohamed or Ramzi Binsalabh level) in Pakistan with direct connections to the AQ command structure. That's the command chain. We can speculate that like there is a money chain too using hawala banks in Dar al Islam to set up more legitimate accounts in "friendly" Arab countries like Bahrain or UAE that would provide operational funds. You don't want to taint the locals too much. While the local imams and sheikhs might support you by looking the other way, you don't want to tie them in too closely or they go to jail and you lose much of your recruiting and support network.
Posted by: 11A5S || 07/22/2005 14:33 Comments || Top||

#10  The Apple Dumpling Gang Rides Again.....Yeehaw
Posted by: SCPatriot || 07/22/2005 19:32 Comments || Top||


Attacks In London Meant To Kill -- Metropolitan Police
The people behind the latest attacks in London meant to kill, the head of the Metropolitan Police has said. But Sir Ian Blair told reporters tonight evidence left at the scenes could be very helpful to police and added "the intention of the terrorists has failed".

Attempts were made to set off explosives at four locations, including three Tube stations and on one bus. London Mayor Ken Livingstone praised the emergency services and said the people of London would "get through this". Police sources say the blasts may have been near-simultaneous and that they are being linked with the 7 July bombs. They say a number of fugitives are being sought. Two people have been arrested in Whitehall, central london.

Sir Ian said there was a "resonance" with the bomb attacks two weeks ago, but that it was too early to draw any conclusions about whether they were linked. Police forensic experts are examining the scenes, at Tube stations in Oval, Warren Street and Shepherd's Bush, and on a bus in Shoreditch, east London. He said important information could be recovered. "From what I understand, some of the devices remain unexploded," he said.

The Met commissioner warned against "smearing" any particular community with the blame for Thursday's attacks. "These are criminal acts and we are in pursuit of a set of criminals," he said.

Eyewitnesses heard bangs and saw abandoned rucksacks at the sites of the incidents at Warren Street and Oval tube stations as well as the number 26 bus, which was travelling from Waterloo towards Hackney and had just entered Hackney Road. There was an attempt to cause an explosion at Shepherd's Bush Hammersmith and City line, police said. Police told reporters that a man had threatened to blow himself up and then ran off.

At Warren Street and Oval a man was seen running away from the scene. On the bus, there were no injuries and the bus suffered no structural damage. Large areas around all four sites were cordoned off. Tests for chemical, biological and radiological weapons proved negative. One person was injured at Warren Street. There were reports the injured person may have been holding a rucksack containing the detonator.
Posted by: Fred || 07/22/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "They are an army unlike any other... ... And if they cannot convert you, they will kill you. ... If we are to survive, a new balance must be found. In normal times, evil would be fought by good. But in times like these, well, it should be fought by another kind of evil."
- Aereon, Elemental, The Chronicles of Riddick
Posted by: .com || 07/22/2005 1:18 Comments || Top||

#2  The people behind the latest attacks meant to kill.


Where do they get these brilliant analysts?
Posted by: bigjim-ky || 07/22/2005 1:29 Comments || Top||

#3  They've obviously got Holmes and Dr Watson on the case. Ima feel much safer now.
Posted by: Howard UK || 07/22/2005 4:59 Comments || Top||

#4  Hurumph!

Attacks in London meant to kill - no shit Sherlock!

Ken (suicide bomber in London = Bad, suicide bomber in Israel = Good) Livingstone blathering on about London "getting through this"

The Met commissioner warned against "smearing" any particular community with the blame for Thursday's attacks. "These are criminal acts and we are in pursuit of a set of criminals," he said.


Got to keep an open mind haven't we Sir Ian. After all, those Methodists and Pro-Hunting types have been really uppity haven't they?

Pathetic.
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 07/22/2005 5:28 Comments || Top||

#5  we just nailed some boomer at stockwell station - hope it was a headshot. Top work from the coppers there!
Posted by: Shep UK || 07/22/2005 5:47 Comments || Top||

#6  just nut up and burn down the muslim sections of london
Posted by: Thraing Hupoluper1864 || 07/22/2005 16:37 Comments || Top||


Europe
Light plane crashes in front of Reichstag - Pilot dead
Breaking news
May be an accident, German link only
Posted by: True German Ally || 07/22/2005 15:03 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Er ist tot, Jim.

Herzanfall, vielleicht?
Posted by: Dar || 07/22/2005 15:22 Comments || Top||

#2  It was, of course, the Communists.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 07/22/2005 15:33 Comments || Top||

#3  Babel Fish is your friend:
Berlin - the crash occurred against 20.29 o'clock. The crash place lies on a meadow at the western side of the realm tag building, before the entrance to the realm tag dome, exactly between the seat of the Bundestag and the Office of the Federal Chancellor. After a first inspection of the crash place a background of terror seems rather improbable.
With the airplane it concerns according to data of a Ermittlers locally a Ultraleichtsegler, which must be more or less perpendicularly broken open. Approximately around the aircraft the lawn is burned in a periphery of approximately five meters, otherwise one actually sees nothing, said the official MIRROR ON-LINE ONE. From the Segler, a kind sail kite with rotors behind the pilot seat, is as well as nothing more remaining.
The police tries now to find eye-witnesses. On the basis the accident scene the Ermittler excluded that the pilot had explosive or something other explosive with itself. "so far we do not know yet, like it to the accident came or whether the pilot is intentionally supported", so the policeman. The police wants to communicate first determination results around 21.45 on a press conference.
With the killed pilot it concerns according to data of the official a man. First remedial measures failed, since he obviously died immediately with the crash. Its identity or where it was broken open toward Berlin with the Segler, is so far still unclear.


Looks like it was an Ultralight aircraft, crashed and burned, not much left.
Posted by: Steve || 07/22/2005 15:41 Comments || Top||

#4  bbc confirms
Posted by: liberalhawk || 07/22/2005 15:46 Comments || Top||

#5  So, it wasn't the Communists. It was John "I'll Take a Gallon of Regular" Denver.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 07/22/2005 15:51 Comments || Top||

#6  Ouch
Posted by: mmurray821 || 07/22/2005 15:51 Comments || Top||

#7  BBC Link
Posted by: True German Ally || 07/22/2005 15:56 Comments || Top||

#8  One of the Waltons?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 07/22/2005 16:11 Comments || Top||

#9  CHUCK S. :

In 1976 I went into a grocery store in Long Beach and actually ran into the late Mr Deutschendorf.

He was filming "Oh God" with George Burns.

He was dressed as the store manager, and I almost asked him where the cold soda pop was, because I didn't recognize him at first...

BYW George Burns was there too. He was talking to one of the real-life butchers...



Posted by: BigEd || 07/22/2005 19:19 Comments || Top||

#10  You will never see the Muslims attacking Germany
Germans love the muslims, always have always will and the muslims love Germany.This was not a terrorist attack, all the way back to WWII the Axis & Muslims were Allies and still today Turkey and Germany are close.
This is why you will propably never see the German army deployed against the Muslims in Iraq or elsewhere.
Posted by: Viking || 07/22/2005 19:33 Comments || Top||

#11  That include Vienna?
Posted by: Shipman || 07/22/2005 19:51 Comments || Top||

#12  "Another witness said the plane was flying upside down and the pilot was trying to land."

Is this some method of landing used in Germany? I'm not familiar with it.
Posted by: gp || 07/22/2005 20:00 Comments || Top||

#13  plane was flying upside down
look ma, no hands!
Posted by: 2b || 07/22/2005 21:14 Comments || Top||

#14  Wasn't me.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 07/22/2005 21:16 Comments || Top||

#15  Q.e.d. Alaska Paul..lol
Looks like an ordinary suicide story with family drama, so it could be moved to Page 3.

Apart from the fact that the Reichstag area is not a no fly zone which is rather puzzling. The Kanzleramt is next door.

Don't think a light plane could have crashed on the White House lawn?
Posted by: True German Ally || 07/22/2005 23:22 Comments || Top||


Home Front: WoT
London suspect in Seattle? FBI is checking
The FBI is trying to determine if a suspect in the deadly subway bombings in London two weeks ago is the same al-Qaida emissary who visited and lived in Seattle in 1999 and 2000 during a trip to set up a terrorist training camp in Oregon.
Right after they solve the Anthrax case, should have someone free around 2015.
British police have identified Haroon Rashid Aswat as a possible source of logistical, financial and technical support to the four bombers, according to media reports. The question for federal agents in Seattle is whether the man named by Scotland Yard is the same man as Aswat Haroon Rashid who, along with James Ujaama of Seattle, Semi Osman of Tacoma and al-Qaida colleague Oussama Abdullah Kassir set up the camp in Bly in south-central Oregon. "Is it the same guy or is it someone else?" asked a federal criminal justice source. "We are going back over a lot of old ground." Agents have questioned Ujaama and others who prayed at the now defunct Dar-us-Salaam mosque in Seattle's Central District, which provided Rashid shelter for a short period during his mission to the Northwest.
[Note: the FBI's role this case has been clarified since this article was originally published.]

But the agents don't expect much new information to emerge since all the people identified by the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force in connection with Rashid already have been thoroughly interviewed. "There's probably not going to be anything earthshaking," the source said. Agents have their doubts the man who came to the Northwest and the man London authorities are looking for are the same. For one thing, federal agents believe the man who visited here is dead, several sources said. Stories about his death vary, but include Rashid being killed in Afghanistan, Sudan or by a cruise missile strike ordered by the CIA against a vehicle traveling in a Yemeni desert.
Unless you can produce a body, assume he's alive. Helf of the terrorist bigs have been reported dead two, three times.
Ujaama worked with the two al-Qaida emissaries who were reputedly sent to the Northwest from Europe by London cleric Abu Hamza to set up the training camp. Abu Hamza was the spiritual leader at London's Finsbury Park Mosque frequented by people such as convicted shoe-bomber Richard Reid. The U.S. intelligence community believes Abu Hamza is a leading al-Qaida recruiter in Europe.
Could have asked us, we'd have told them that.
A federal grand jury in the United States has indicted him, and British authorities are holding him as Abu Hamza awaits the outcome of extradition proceedings.

Ahmed Ressam, who drove off a ferry from Canada into Port Angeles in 1999 in a rental car filled with explosives that authorities said he intended to use against travelers at Los Angeles International Airport, will be sentenced in Seattle next week. The severity of Ressam's sentence will depend largely on whether he agrees to testify against Abu Hamza. Semi Osman, a former prayer leader at the Dar-us-Salaam Mosque at 23rd Avenue and East Union Street, was behind the wheel of a car carrying the two al-Qaida members near Bly in December 1999 when a police officer pulled the vehicle over because a brake light was out. The suspicious officer wrote down the names of everyone in the vehicle as well as numbers on Kassir's and Rashid's passports.
Now that's a smart cop...
It was Osman who procured the property in Bly for the jihad training camp, according to court records. Osman received a lighter sentence in return for his future testimony against Abu Hamza. Osman was found guilty in 2003 of possession of an illegal pistol. He is serving a sentence on an unrelated conviction at the Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla.

Ujaama, under the terms of an April 2003 plea agreement, also must cooperate with the Department of Justice until 2013 in terrorism cases, including the prosecution of Abu Hamza. The agreement prohibits him from talking about his own or others' involvement in criminal or terrorist activities to anyone other than officials or in court. In return, terrorism-related charges against Ujaama were dropped in favor of a single count of providing services, software and other technology to the Taliban regime of Afghanistan. Ujaama has served his sentence and is living in Seattle. He has refused to comment this week to the Seattle Post-Intelligencer.
Put together a photo line-up including a picture of Haroon Rashid Aswat, show it to both of them seperately, and see if they ID the same guy. Or didn't they teach that in FBI school?
Many members of Dar-us-Salaam went to the nearby successor mosque called Taqwa on East Union Street. It is unclear if that mosque is still open, however. No one associated with it could be reached for comment yesterday, and a telephone number for Taqwa listed on two Muslim Web sites has been disconnected.
Disbanded, or gone underground?
Rashid and Kassir arrived in New York City on Nov. 26, 1999, on an Air India flight, then went to Bly via Seattle, according to the indictment against Ujaama. Ujaama's indictment lists three unidentified co-conspirators who were not charged. Numerous federal criminal justice sources have told the P-I that the co-conspirators are Rashid, Kassir and Abu Hamza. The indictment says the men conspired "to provide training in the United States of America to persons desiring to engage in violent jihad so that such persons would be bona fide candidates for further violent jihad training in training camps operated by al-Qaida abroad, including in Afghanistan." The purpose: "to promote violent jihad activities around the world."
Posted by: Steve || 07/22/2005 13:37 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I don't have allot of faith in the FBI. They seem to be a bunch of office politicians. I'd feel better if the NYPD was on the case like was posted on Rantburg a few days ago.

What do you guys think? Do I have it wrong?
Thanx
Posted by: Yosemite Sam || 07/22/2005 14:41 Comments || Top||

#2  I read the article. I vote NYPD.
Posted by: Bobby || 07/22/2005 15:02 Comments || Top||

#3  don't hear much about Adam Pearlman anymore. Wonder what he is up to?
Posted by: 2b || 07/22/2005 15:03 Comments || Top||

#4  Aswat must have decided against permanent residence in Seattle because he knew fellow students would call his kids Asswad in school.
Posted by: Super Hose || 07/22/2005 17:08 Comments || Top||

#5  An asswad by any other name is still an asswad.
Posted by: Cosmic Crusader || 07/22/2005 21:31 Comments || Top||


LIRR will search riders
In response to second set of London bombings, random bag searches begin Friday morning. Passengers stepping onto Long Island Rail Road platforms today will be subject to random bag searches before they board trains, in an unprecedented measure adopted after terrorists bombed London's transit system for the second time in two weeks.
Heh, wait for it...
The New York Civil Liberties Union immediately blasted the move and said it is contemplating a suit to halt it.
Despite the ACLU's belief to the contrary, the Constitution is not a suicide pact.
Posted by: DanNY || 07/22/2005 06:49 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  You want to have a word with those Civil Liberties people - I could put them up for a week or two in London...
Posted by: Howard UK || 07/22/2005 8:34 Comments || Top||

#2  Nice of them, though, to take some time off from their relentless persecution of Boy Scouts to help out with the fight against terrorism...
Posted by: Dave D. || 07/22/2005 8:39 Comments || Top||

#3  Nice of them, though, to take some time off from their relentless persecution of Boy Scouts to help out with the fight against terrorism...

Sorry, but You misspelled for terrorism.....
Posted by: CrazyFool || 07/22/2005 9:05 Comments || Top||

#4  When is America going to wake up to the destructive anti-American power of the ACLU!! They are not here to protect the citizens of this country!! They are the true enemy of America and they are funded with taxpayer dollars!! They need to go and quckly along with Ginsberg!! She is making a mockery of our Constitution and the American Way!!!
Posted by: Clotch Phick7309 || 07/22/2005 11:02 Comments || Top||

#5  Maybe they could have a special ACLU carriage where no-one has been searched...

I'm sure it would be popular.
Posted by: Ulereger Clavigum6227 || 07/22/2005 11:30 Comments || Top||

#6  Indeed UC! A fine freemarket solution.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/22/2005 12:50 Comments || Top||

#7  When you stop to think about it:

Large numbers of people crowded into mass transporation vehicle . . .

How is this any different than boarding an aircraft? The ACLU got used to that . . . didn't they? . . . or did they?

Maybe a compromise solution where members of the ACLU can carry their bags . . .
Posted by: gp || 07/22/2005 14:38 Comments || Top||

#8  if you wanna personally affect the ACLU, require strip searches before entering limousines
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 15:26 Comments || Top||

#9  I meant
. . . where the ACLU can carry the muslims' bags . . .
Posted by: gp || 07/22/2005 15:42 Comments || Top||


Southeast Asia
Aceh peace deal fails to end killing
Fighting between the Indonesian military and separatist rebels in Aceh province has intensified despite a peace deal to end their 30-year war, both sides said yesterday. Government negotiators and representatives of the Free Aceh Movement agreed in Finland at the weekend to sign a peace accord on 15 August to end a conflict that has claimed 15,000 lives - many of them civilians allegedly shot by Indonesian troops for sympathising with the rebellion. However, several earlier accords have collapsed amid violations and general distrust on both sides. Indonesia's information minister, who took part in the Helsinki talks, said he did not expect the latest fighting to affect the peace process. But a military spokesman said the rebels were taking advantage of the peace move to step up their campaign.
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/22/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Aceh peace deal fails to end killing

Some peace deal!
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/22/2005 0:12 Comments || Top||

#2  But a military spokesman said the rebels were taking advantage of the peace move to step up their campaign.

Hmmmmm....where have we seen this before?
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 07/22/2005 0:52 Comments || Top||


Syria-Lebanon-Iran
One dead in Beirut car explosion
One person has been killed and several people were injured when a car exploded in the Lebanese capital Beirut, security sources say. The director-general of internal security, General Ashraf Rifi, told Lebanese television that a bomb had been placed under a car in Rue Monot. The street, filled with restaurants and nightclubs, has a bustling nightlife. It comes hours after US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice left the city after a brief, unannounced visit.
Quagmire! We must pull our troops out......oh wait..
Is the timing to the attacks in London a coincidence?
Sounds more like a "Welcome to Beirut," courtesy of those friendly folks in Ein el-Hilweh...
Posted by: Steve || 07/22/2005 15:23 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Maybe it was just a Lebanese version of the banana in the tailpipe gag.
Posted by: Super Hose || 07/22/2005 16:59 Comments || Top||

#2  or a Ford Pinto
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 17:04 Comments || Top||

#3  A Pinto in the tailpipe gag? That's new to me.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/22/2005 19:53 Comments || Top||

#4  that's why the Pinto was first banned in San Francisco - they explode when rearended

*rimshot*
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 19:56 Comments || Top||

#5  LOL!
Posted by: Shipman || 07/22/2005 20:56 Comments || Top||


Africa: North
20 killed in Egypt Red Sea resort blasts: police (Breaking)
CAIRO : At least 20 people were killed in a string of explosions overnight in the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, police sources said Saturday. - AFP
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 19:08 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  lie down with fleas..... muslim brotherhood, A-Q or Paleo reprobates?
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 19:12 Comments || Top||

#2  It's al-Qaeda.

Trust me on this one.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/22/2005 19:14 Comments || Top||

#3  AlQ full blown shits and giggles killing tourists armed w/ kids and bathing suits!

Those Muther F&ckers!
Posted by: Red Dog || 07/22/2005 19:30 Comments || Top||

#4  The summer offensive is on, then...

Latest figure is 25 dead, 110 wounded.
Posted by: Colt || 07/22/2005 19:36 Comments || Top||

#5  if you own stock in Egyptian hotels? Sell
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 19:44 Comments || Top||

#6  Deutsche World is reporting car bombs and 30+ dead.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/22/2005 20:34 Comments || Top||

#7  Happy Revolution Day, Egypt!

Bastards blew up the hotels while everyone was sleeping.
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/22/2005 20:38 Comments || Top||

#8  German ARD has 43 dead and 136 wounded now
Posted by: True German Ally || 07/22/2005 20:47 Comments || Top||

#9  You are (pardon my French) dead on, Seafarious.
Posted by: Secret Master || 07/22/2005 20:51 Comments || Top||

#10  crap. Nice job Hosni....don't ask us to help with the $ lost due to the tourism dropoff. We will, however, give a loan for Craftsman© drills, pliars, cutters, etc... if ya know what I mean
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 21:09 Comments || Top||

#11  Tick,tick tick....
Just waiting for Al Qaeda to call for Egypt to withdraw its troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. What's that? They don't have any there you say? Then, maybe these cowards just like killing people.
Posted by: GK || 07/22/2005 21:39 Comments || Top||

#12  Let's check in on M. Atta's sick and deranged pappy to see which way the wind is blowing these days in Egypt. Boomers just can't seem to stay away from that resort can they. Scum. Let's see, they kill civilians including women and children deliberately at a holiday resort while they are all probably sleeping. Do you think they were laplanders or amish? No? Hmmmm. Muslims? Wonder what made them think it was a good idea? Must have been THE Root Cause again! Can't fucking help themselves can they.
Posted by: MunkarKat || 07/22/2005 21:58 Comments || Top||

#13  Looks like time to avoid all Islamic countries and cut off aid to those who don't play along (Sudan and Pak?)? Make them pay the price for their tolerance. Crush internally the movemets so we don't have to face them, and quit asylums for runners
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 22:42 Comments || Top||

#14  So, Sharm el Sheikh was nothing in particular until the Israelis got hold of it. They traded it back to Egypt for an unreasonable facsimile of peace, and now the Egyptians are overseeing its return to the state it was in when last they had it. Oh yes, and it's Egypt that plans to guarantee that the Palestinians become a peaceful people. Clever, that.
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/22/2005 22:47 Comments || Top||

#15  what? Right on schedule, it seems, TW ....

*gaacckk*
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 23:12 Comments || Top||

#16  Sorry, I'm slow again tonight, Frank. Is that good or bad?
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/22/2005 23:14 Comments || Top||

#17  drat.
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/22/2005 23:58 Comments || Top||

#18  I'm willing to believe that affiliates of the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood acted up again in a symbolic gesture of solidarity in hating true believers, Christians, Jews and everyone else not like them with the deranged anti-God Al Qaeda-associated Islamonazis. Hitting shopping areas and vacation spots make for such a splashy splotchy headline and camera coverage than some charred twisted aircraft wreckage or smoldering municipal bus somewhere. These sickos will persue their Godless perversities until they are run back into the kennels they came from, or tossed back into the hog pens they were raised from. God help these losers from their pitiful blind goals of a satanic-like world, and put strength into their feet of clay being washed away by the evil twisting of the words of Prophet Mohammed and let those strengthened feet give strength to walk away from Satans agents, and God give them the strength in heart, mind, soul and hands to overcome the dog-like derangement of purposeless persuits of causing evil, mischief, telling lies, and spreading cruelty and merciless hatred towards others, and I pray that these manipulated and demented evil-doers are given back their vision to see the pig-like effects of what happens when the words of Allah are perverted and twisted by the evil doers who call themselves by many names as to confuse the innocent and impress fellow evil doers. God help them because when I get my hands on one of these sons of Satan, they will need all of Satan's evil to get loose. Shame on Al Qaeda and those that embrace the moon worshipping liars who dare call themselves Muslims. The ummah has no room for these yellow stripped dogs attacking women, children and the elderly. They show more affection for young boys than they do for the ummah. Shame on these cowards and infinite justice will be passed upon these parasites. It is God's plan to bring us back by staring at evil like this that is so difficult, but what God plans for his flock will happen and if blood is spilled to appreciate his creations better and love him more on a straighter and truer path, then it must be what it must be. Even so... these evil doers have nothing coming but God's infinite justice to sweep them off their feetless legs and empty souls. God bless A
Posted by: Fun Dung Poo || 07/23/2005 0:00 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Sadr City Council makes a 'Deal' With U.S. Forces
The municipal council of Sadr City, Baghdadᅵs most populated quarter where more than 2 million people live, has reached a new agreement with U.S. troops on policing the impoverished town.

Under the terms of the agreement, U.S. troops have agreed to withdraw from the city and leave security to its fledgling police force. "We have set up a security operations room in the city ᅵ the Americans are part of it ᅵ the tasks are to boost security and to identify strangers and those causing trouble," said Hassan Shamaa, the mayor of Sadr City. Shamaa said that the Americans have agreed, "to withdraw once we have enough police officers in place."

The agreement is good news for many Iraqis who do not want to see U.S. tanks and armored vehicles in their areas. It also proves that U.S. troops are willing to leave residential areas once they are sure Iraqi forces are capable of maintaining security. ᅵBut Shamaa did not say when Iraqi forces will be fully ready to take over security from American troops,ᅵ but he said that he was in contact with the ministries of Interior and Defense as well as the prime minister to strengthen Sadr Cityᅵs security forces.

Sadr City rose up against U.S. occupation forces last year, as militias of militant cleric Moqtada Sadr fought street battles in the cityᅵs warren of lanes and one-story houses. But the militias have laid down their weapons, opting to use peaceful and political means to achieve their goal of ending the presence of foreign troops on Iraqi soil.

If Iraqi forces succeed in policing Sadr City on their own, the experiment is likely to spill over to other areas of the restive Iraqi capital. ᅵShamaa, however, said he hoped the withdrawal of U.S. troops from his city would not end U.S. aid. ᅵHe said his city needs immediate help to rebuild public utilities like water and electricity.

Despite promises of massive aid after the agreement last year, under which the militias opted for peace, Shamaa said that only a trickle had reached his city.

Head shot of Tater frothing at link
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 07/22/2005 12:54 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  In yesterday's report to Congress, DoD makes the point that Tater's militia is the only major one not to have disbanded.

We've poured a great deal of aid into Sadr city. Little of it has apparently found its way into Shamaa's robes. Too bad...
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 07/22/2005 13:03 Comments || Top||

#2  Aid will come faster, and from more sources, when you can control the boomers, assassins, and kidnappers.
Posted by: Bobby || 07/22/2005 13:06 Comments || Top||

#3  Shamaa, however, said he hoped the withdrawal of U.S. troops from his city would not end U.S. aid.

As is typically the case, the problem these wankers have with Americans is never with their money.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 07/22/2005 13:35 Comments || Top||

#4  Head shot of Tater

don't get my hopes up like that
Posted by: 2b || 07/22/2005 13:44 Comments || Top||

#5  I know it sounds cock-eyed but this is what will have to happen all over Iraq for things to become more stable. Their democracy may not look anything like our democracy. Think of the late 1800 and early 1900 America where communities and sometimes entire states were run by a political machine. Everyone remember Boss Hog from the Dukes of Hazard? Boss ran his county, with his police force. Yes a tad dictorial but also he kept things in order within the county limits. I am not saying Sadr is Boss Hog, but it is possible to evolve from that type of political situation into what we have today.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge || 07/22/2005 16:36 Comments || Top||

#6  Sadr's not smart enuf to be Boss - he's riding his Pappy's legacy in a downward spiral
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 17:29 Comments || Top||

#7  Every powerful "politician" in Iraq is a wannabe bosshog or a warlord of some sort. Sistani's Badr Brigade. The Peshmerga,I'm sure there are tons more. Allies, and those who aren't so friendly, and those who switch sides from day to day all usually have some armed wing.

Fledgling democracies often have those groups that move from militia to political party. As is apparently DoD's goal with Sadr Tater.

I say kill the fuck as an example. The Sunnis are looking to Sadr as an example of all the good shit that can happen if you continue fighting until the other side agrees to enough of your terms.

Should have let the Marines waste his ass, but the DoD's logic is sound for our purposes in Iraq in many ways. Stabilise the situation, pump reconstruction dollars in to pacify the population, make things look pretty and get the hell out. If we weren't in these idiots line of fire, they'd shoot each other.

So, we'll do what we can for the average smuck, leave and maybe Sadr will be somebody, maybe not. But this type of shit has backfired before. Anyone recall Hitler's beer hall putsch, his trial, growing popularity, national recognition,imprisoment, election, aggression, appeasement from the europeans, then genocide.

Maybe the DoD's logic is sound not killing this ass munch, as not to make him a matyr, but if you kill all his friends who is there to celebrate his martydom. If we had killed old smiley pants Hitler in 33 when he was just a punk thug like Tater is now, we'd have saved ourselves a whole lotta steel.

That's just my logic, take it or leave it.

Whatever the case, we shouldn't publicly try him, it would just make him more poular, but it would be nice if he had an accidental encounter with a stray suicide bomber or something "random" to that effect. Maybe an IED placed by his own thugs, sorry we missed that one Tater. Maybe he chokes to death on his prayer beads, whatever.

My preference would be to let the boys over at
Blackwater get their revenge for Fallujah on old Tater and I'm sure they would oblige.

Tater's towel wrapped head sure would make a nice hood ornament.

EP

Posted by: ElvisHasLeftTheBuilding || 07/22/2005 17:30 Comments || Top||

#8  I'd go for that - next time they act up (shoulda been done already IMHO)
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 17:58 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan/South Asia
India jails Al Qaeda suspect who plotted 9/11 strikes
MUMBAI - An Indian court on Friday jailed a man for plotting to crash passenger jets into the House of Commons and the Tower Bridge in London on September 11, 2001.

The court in the western Indian city of Mumbai handed down a seven-year prison term to Mohammed Afroze, who had also confessed to plotting with a group of Al Qaeda operatives to attack Melbourne’s Rialto Towers and the Indian parliament in 2001. Afroze told the police in Mumbai after fleeing from Britain to India four years ago that he and seven Al Qaeda terror cell operatives planned to hijack the passenger jets at Heathrow and fly them into the two London landmarks.

The suicide squads which included men from Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Pakistan booked themselves on two Manchester-bound flights but the group panicked and fled just before they were due to board. Afroze was arrested at a Mumbai city hotel in October 2001 and charged under a tough anti-terror Indian law.

Indian judge A. P. Bhangale charged Afroze with criminal conspiracy, forgery and for “committing depredation on territories at peace with India,” court officials said. The judge, however, acquitted Afroze’s brother, Mohammad Farooq Abdul Razaq, because police failed to produce sufficient evidence for his prosecution, the officials said.

Razaq was charged with helping Afroze to travel abroad and learn to fly passenger planes, officials said.
Posted by: Steve White || 07/22/2005 10:10 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  ...plotting to crash passenger jets into the House of Commons and the Tower Bridge in London on September 11, 2001.

So 9/11 was indeed intended to be a great deal more spectacular, as some speculated at the time. I wonder what other little plots fell through that day?
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/22/2005 11:32 Comments || Top||

#2  India's tough anti-terrorism laws gave this guy 7 years for this? Real tough guys. Try the Israeli targeted assassinations. Guarantee we'll hear from Mo the A-Fro again.
Posted by: Rightwing || 07/22/2005 11:46 Comments || Top||

#3  The POTA laws were not that tough. They were considerably weaker than comparable British laws.

Indian leftists and "human rights activists", in their role of protector of minorities (read muslims) mounted an impressive propaganda campaign against the laws.

Magically these laws became draconian and "anti-minority"
Posted by: john || 07/22/2005 12:07 Comments || Top||


Five Tribal Elders Shot and Killed
LADHA, Pakistan (AP) - Assailants killed five tribal elders who had helped Pakistan's army hunt for al-Qaida-linked militants in a remote, lawless region near the Afghan border, residents and officials said Friday. The elders were gunned down in three attacks in various parts of South Waziristan, a deeply conservative mountainous region run by local tribes, and only nominally ruled by Islamabad.
Time for a little "Dire Revenge".
Officials have blamed Islamic militants in the region for previous attacks on pro-government elders in the country's tribal areas, where Pakistan has deployed more than 70,000 troops to trace and arrest al-Qaida-linked militants and their local supporters. At least 50 other elders have been killed after they started cooperating with the Pakistani army.
Tribal elder Malik Mir Zalim and four people with him were gunned down Friday on a road in Wana, the main town in South Waziristan, said local resident Taj Hayyat. An intelligence official confirmed the killing on condition of anonymity, citing government rules about talking to the press. Elders Khandan Malik, Musa Khan and Hussain Malik were ambushed Friday in their car on a dirt road in Karwan Manza, a town 75 miles south of Wana, said local official Mohammed Khan.
Elder Taj Mohammed was gunned down late Thursday in Lalizhai, a South Waziristan village about 60 miles south of Wana, local official Mohammed Rasool said. The slain elder had helped forces in an operation against Abdullah Mehsud, a former U.S.-held prisoner in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba whose men kidnapped two Chinese engineers in October. Also Friday, three soldiers were injured when their vehicle hit a land mine in North Waziristan, officials said.
Posted by: Steve || 07/22/2005 09:19 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  damn, No respect for the elders
Posted by: Grush Shomogum2379 || 07/22/2005 9:47 Comments || Top||

#2  killed for standing up against terror.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 07/22/2005 11:00 Comments || Top||

#3  And they were elders no more . . .

The village was dis-eldered?

I'll shuddup.
Posted by: PlanetDan || 07/22/2005 11:52 Comments || Top||

#4  LiberalHawk
comment #99 might interest you.
Posted by: 3dc || 07/22/2005 11:56 Comments || Top||


Thugburg update...
I've now managed to go through our first two years, populating Thugburg by hand up to 9-11-2003. We're currently just under 5000 entries.

I've added in the Organizations list as a list box, which'll allow pulling all the members we've seen of an organization. (Usually, anyway. Some don't seem to respond quite right...) T

Eventually, I'll add in another column with a standardized spelling of names, keeping the column that has the spelling as it appears in the original article for search purposes.
Posted by: Fred || 07/22/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Now THAT'S an open-source intelligence tool.
Posted by: gromky || 07/22/2005 0:14 Comments || Top||

#2  Quite impressive, quite impressive indeed.

EP
Posted by: ElvisHasLeftTheBuilding || 07/22/2005 0:26 Comments || Top||

#3  Wow. Thank you. Really, sincerely, truly. (I'll make my thanks a little more concrete when I get a few medical bills taken care of!) A question: is there a hierarchy to the position category - "supremo" "cannon fodder" "tough guy" etc.
Posted by: Rory B. Bellows || 07/22/2005 0:41 Comments || Top||

#4  Thanks for all of your hard work maintaining this site. It is truly apreciated. It's sad that there are so many folks that enjoy spreading havoc.
Posted by: Jan || 07/22/2005 1:12 Comments || Top||

#5  Just a thought, Fred, but could you identify those who are Imams preaching jihad?

ID the provocoteurs as well as the cannon fodder?

Great job!
Posted by: DanNY || 07/22/2005 7:05 Comments || Top||

#6  Can't get Thugburg to open,all I get is a blank page.
Posted by: raptor || 07/22/2005 7:22 Comments || Top||

#7  I guess the server hung at just that moment. I restarted.
Posted by: Fred || 07/22/2005 8:01 Comments || Top||

#8  And I'll put a search on for "holy men." That should give all the imams...
Posted by: Fred || 07/22/2005 8:09 Comments || Top||

#9  Well done.
Posted by: bgrebel9 || 07/22/2005 9:54 Comments || Top||

#10  Now thats what I call work! The harder part can be followup and update of this database as these thugs slowly but surely join up with the worms down under eagerly awaiting them. What a nice piece of open-source!
Posted by: Fun Dung Poo || 07/22/2005 11:35 Comments || Top||

#11  Got the job filter done. I think I'll also add a filter to show deaders, live ones, and everybody, at least eventually.
Posted by: Fred || 07/22/2005 11:40 Comments || Top||

#12  I think I'll also add a filter to show deaders, live ones

Call it :
"Room Temperature"
vs "98.6F/37C"

This is a great tool!
Posted by: BigEd || 07/22/2005 11:54 Comments || Top||

#13  I can't seem to find the entry for "Howard Dean".
Posted by: Chris W. || 07/22/2005 18:45 Comments || Top||

#14  he's under "archives"
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 18:50 Comments || Top||


Israel-Palestine
Child killed, another injured in Khan Yunis explosion
A 13-year-old child was killed and his brother, a seven-year-old boy, was injured Thursday when an explosive device blew up in the Palestinian city of Khan Yunis. "The explosion took place today afternoon and the injured child was admitted to Nasser Hospital to undergo operation," a statement of the Palestinian interior ministry said. The statement added that two hours ahead of this explosion, a Qassam Missile had fallen on a house in the city. It warned citizens and armed factions of using such devices.
Posted by: Fred || 07/22/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  If they keep this up, Abu Mazen's dream of shoving Israel off the land by force of [over]population will be reversed, as there won't be any Palestinians left to do the populating.
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/22/2005 6:07 Comments || Top||

#2  TW, we can always hope...
Posted by: SR-71 || 07/22/2005 6:23 Comments || Top||

#3  Weren't you told not to do this at home? No virgins for you!
Posted by: gromgoru || 07/22/2005 8:24 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Seven policemen killed in attack -- police
Seven policemen were killed and at least one was wounded in an attack on a police patrol in western sector of the northern city of Mosul on Thursday, police said. Separately, police backed by allied troops arrested 29 suspected terrorists in operations in northern Iraq, according to a statement released by the Multi-National Forces. Two of the gunmen were nabbed in Mosul. The others were caught in action in several parts of the city and its outskirts.

US Army gunship helicopters raided on Thursday insurgents' hideouts in the town of Al-Dallouiah north of the Iraqi capital, the army said in a statement. The statement indicated that the jet fighters targetted hideouts, located on the banks of the Tigris river, adding that the gunmen had fired missiles from the targetted locations. Two army helicopter gunships, hovering at low altitude, hit the targets with heavy machine gun fire and missiles, it added.
Posted by: Fred || 07/22/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Afghanistan/South Asia
Tension mounts in Gilgit as man shot
Gilgit city and its suburban areas were tense, as unidentified people shot another person in the Jutiyal area on Wednesday night. Sources said Shakeel was shot and injured and many shops were burnt down in the same locality. Tour operators said hundreds of foreign and local tourists had left Gilgit for safer places due to the tensions in Gilgit city, which has continued for the fourth consecutive day.

Tensions began when unidentified men ambushed a Rawalpindi-bound NATCO bus on Karakoram Highway near Chilas on Sunday night and killed five passengers and wounded six. A press release of the Gilgit administration stated on Wednesday that unidentified men had shot and killed taxi driver Habibur Rahman in Didingdas and Rajab Ali and Arif Hussain in Gilgit while Shakeel was shot and wounded on Wednesday night in the Jutiyal neighbourhood. Almost all shopping and business centres were closed and traffic was light on Thursday. Except for a few pedestrians, roads in Gilgit were mainly empty. Large contingents of police and Rangers were deployed in Sonikote and Kashroot to ward off further clashes, sources added.
Posted by: Fred || 07/22/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Well, if I made Gigli, I should be shot too...
Posted by: Raj || 07/22/2005 10:18 Comments || Top||

#2  There's no known for site reading Raj.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/22/2005 12:13 Comments || Top||

#3  Cure
Posted by: Shipman || 07/22/2005 12:14 Comments || Top||

#4  Word
Posted by: Steve || 07/22/2005 14:05 Comments || Top||

#5  LOL. ahem.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/22/2005 15:23 Comments || Top||


Shia mosque blast accused arrested
LAHORE: Police said on Thursday that it had arrested the suspected mastermind of a suicide bombing at a mosque last year that killed 28 Shias. The suspect, Imran Bobi, was arrested after a gun battle on Wednesday that left one militant dead at a house in Lahore, local police officer Babar Ashraf said. "Terrorist Imran Bobi has been arrested from the area of Kot Lakhpat," he said. "He was the mastermind of the suicide attack in a Shia mosque in Sialkot," he added.

Imran Bobi, described as a religious militant trained in Afghanistan, had helped plan the October 2004 attack on a Shia mosque in Sialkot that killed 28 people, he said. He had also been involved in a sectarian attack in Lahore the same year in which four people, including the suicide bomber and a police guard, were killed. Ashraf said the militants opened fire when police and secret service agents raided the house on Wednesday. In the ensuing gun battle, police killed Imran Bobi's accomplice Muhabbat Khan and captured Bobi.
Posted by: Fred || 07/22/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Mochi Gate blast suspect given in police custody
LAHORE: After detailed investigations of about eight months, intelligence agencies have finally turned the Mochi Gate blast suspect over to the police, sources told Daily Times on Thursday. The man belonging to a defunct religious outfit was arrested in the last of week of November in 2004. According to an official handout on Thursday, the superintendent of police (SP) of the Crime Investigation Agency claimed that the alleged terrorist was arrested in a raid in Kotlakhpat and was found in possession of two pistols and 35 bullets. Deputy Superintendent of Police (DSP) CIA Umar Virk led the raid. According to the information gleaned from the terrorist, he was a resident of Ravi Road and hade moved to Chungi Amersiddhu and joined a militant organisation in 1997. He confessed to panning the suicide bombing in the Jamia Mosque imambargah in Mochi Gate on October 10, 2004. He fled the scene after his aide Hasan, who had tied explosives to his body, blew himself up when a security guard tried to stop him from entering the mosque.

The alleged terrorist also confessed to killing Allama Ghulam Hussain Najafi and sheltering local and foreign militants in hideouts in the Shadhra and Ghazi Abad areas. However, sources said that on the night of November 25, 2004 a shootout occurred between police and suspected Al Qaeda members in Bhatti Colony in Kotlakhpat which left one terrorists dead and three law enforcement agencies’ officials injured. Two terrorists were arrested in the shootout, sources said.

Sources claimed that the police raided the house of a retired schoolteacher, Professor Mehboob, and arrested his son Imran alias Boby in Peshawar after intelligence officials tracked a wireless call he had made to alleged terrorist Muhabat Khan. After arresting him, the investigators made him receive his cell-phone calls, which proved his links with Al Qaeda. During investigations, Imran revealed that he had given shelter to Muhabat Khan in Lahore at which a police team raided his house in Kotlakhpat. A shootout followed in which Muhabat Khan died in an exchange of fire with the police, while three police officials including an official of a secret agency, Muhammad Ashraf, Assistant Sub-Inspector (ASI) and constable Muhammad Mansha of Elite Police Force were injured, sources said. Police seized one AK-47 rifle and two pistols from their possession. Two of Imran’s brother surrendered to the police while one of their accomplices fled.
Posted by: Fred || 07/22/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Crackdown on militants: Detainees to be scrutinised in jail
LAHORE: The Punjab Home Department has established a cell where detainees arrested during the government’s crackdown on militants and banned religious outfits will be subjected to scrutiny and imprisoned for three months thereafter, Home Department sources told Daily Times. Around 150 detainees, arrested from across the province, have already been scrutinised and 45 of them were sent to jail on Thursday.
"Scrutinise him, Danno!"
Sources said that militants wanted in criminal cases would be imprisoned for three months under the Pakistan Penal Code and Maintenance of Public Order (MPO) if found guilty of trying to create hatred among various segments of society. However, those found not guilty will be released. The cell will monitor activities, speeches and writings of clerics and orators, serving in mosques and seminaries throughout the province and will compile regular reports which will be sent to the president and prime minister, sources said. They said the intelligence wing of the police would assist the Home Department in scrutiny, adding that similar cells would be set up in NWFP, Balochistan and Sindh on President Pervez Musharraf’s orders.
Posted by: Fred || 07/22/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Hey where was that hole in the ground that Saddam was hiding in. Seems fitting enough.
Posted by: Jan || 07/22/2005 1:20 Comments || Top||

#2  Scrutinized?

Anally ?

Posted by: john || 07/22/2005 6:57 Comments || Top||


Detained cleric has heart attack
ISLAMABAD: Religious scholar Qari Ayaz Abbasi, arrested during the police crackdown on seminaries, on Thursday had a heart attack while being taken to Adiala Jail.
"Oh, this is the biggest one I ever had! You hear that Elizabeth? I'm coming to join you honey!"
Sources said police took Qari Ayaz to Government Services Hospital (Polyclinic) where his condition was diagnosed as stable critical. They said that four other religious scholars had been shifted to Adiala Jail. "Police and law enforcement agencies are keeping a strict eye on all seminaries in Islamabad Capital Territory (ICT)," they added.
Posted by: Fred || 07/22/2005 00:00 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Inshallah.
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/22/2005 0:09 Comments || Top||

#2  Get stable soon, Qari.
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/22/2005 0:23 Comments || Top||

#3  I'm reminded of the movie PAYBACK
"if I have to start IV's on you to keep you alive for the torture..."

I'm so not like this, but every once in a while I get a wild hair
Posted by: Jan || 07/22/2005 1:27 Comments || Top||

#4  wouldn't you have to have a heart to have an attack?
Posted by: Frank G || 07/22/2005 1:50 Comments || Top||

#5  His heart may have gotten tired of his crap and decided to attack him,Frank.
Posted by: raptor || 07/22/2005 7:02 Comments || Top||

#6  Grasshopper, it is our newest weapon!
Posted by: Ulaper Ebbise7768 || 07/22/2005 12:56 Comments || Top||



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A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.

Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.

Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has dominated Mexico for six years.
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Meet the Mods
In no particular order...
Steve White
Seafarious
tu3031
badanov
sherry
ryuge
GolfBravoUSMC
Bright Pebbles
trailing wife
Gloria
Fred
Besoeker
Glenmore
Frank G
3dc
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Two weeks of WOT
Fri 2005-07-22
  London: B Team Boomer Banged
Thu 2005-07-21
  B Team flubs more London booms
Wed 2005-07-20
  Georgia: Would-be Bush assassin kills cop, nabbed
Tue 2005-07-19
  Paks hold suspects linked to London bombings
Mon 2005-07-18
  Saddam indicted
Sun 2005-07-17
  Tanker bomb kills 60 Iraqis
Sat 2005-07-16
  Hudna evaporates
Fri 2005-07-15
  Chemist, alleged mastermind of London bombings, arrested in Cairo
Thu 2005-07-14
  London bomber 'was recruited' at Lashkar-e-Taiba madrassa
Wed 2005-07-13
  Italy police detain 174 people in anti-terror sweep
Tue 2005-07-12
  Arrests over London bomb attacks
Mon 2005-07-11
  30 al-Qaeda suspects identified in London bombings
Sun 2005-07-10
  Taliban behead 6 Afghan Policemen
Sat 2005-07-09
  Central Birminham UK Evacuated: "controlled explosions"
Fri 2005-07-08
  Lodi probe expands - 6 others may have attended camps

Better than the average link...



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