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Al-Tawhid threatens to kill Bulgarian hostages
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Arabia
Saudi Militant Urges War on U.S. in Appeal Before Death
An al Qaeda operative killed by Saudi police last week urged Muslims in a message taped before his death to join al Qaeda ranks to expel "infidel" Westerners from Saudi Arabia and topple the kingdom’s pro-U.S. monarchy. "The battle is between Islam and crusaders, good and evil, God’s soldiers and those of the devil, between the mujahideen, led by Sheikh Osama bin Laden and his party of God, and the infidel Americans and their allies in the party of Satan," said the tape purportedly from Fahd bin Ali al-Dakheel al-Ghabalan. "The mujahideen will continue to fight the infidel Americans whatever the price and fighting them is a duty for all Muslims," said the audio tape on the latest edition of "Sawt al-Jihad," the online publication of the Saudi al Qaeda wing.

The 39-minute-long tape began with a brief introduction about Ghabalan, saying he had fought in Afghanistan before and after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States and that he had been involved in several clashes with Saudi police. Security forces killed Ghabalan in a shootout in the Saudi capital Riyadh last Wednesday. He was not on a wanted list of 26 top militants but Saudi security sources said he was in charge of overseeing the smuggling of arms and explosives into the kingdom for attacks. "Victory is near and all Muslims should fulfil their duties by praying to God, supporting us and providing information about where the enemy is located," said the man on the tape, available on Friday. He accused the Saudi royal family of stealing the country’s oil riches, being Washington’s lackey and betraying Islam by "opening its airports to Americans and giving them military bases and heavily-guarded, luxury residential compounds." He said al Qaeda would continue its battle until a "real Islamic state" emerged in the ultra-conservative kingdom, which enforces strict Islamic sharia law.

A separate statement on Sawt al-Jihad said last month’s killing of their leader in Saudi Arabia, Abdulaziz al-Muqrin, would only increase the group’s determination. It dismissed a limited one-month government amnesty for militants to surrender, under which two militants have turned themselves in.
Posted by: Anonymous4724 || 07/09/2004 11:41:14 AM || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  wonder what he'll say in the sequel......oh
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 19:55 Comments || Top||

#2  From the article: A separate statement on Sawt al-Jihad said last month’s killing of their leader in Saudi Arabia, Abdulaziz al-Muqrin, would only increase the group’s determination.

Of course it will. Just as the Sudanese Mahdi's death increased the determination of the men annihilated by Lord Kitchener 100 years ago. Just as Yakub Beg's execution by the Chinese made Uighurs more determined almost 200 years ago. Dream on...
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 07/09/2004 23:15 Comments || Top||


3 times in Saudi, de la Cruz just got unlucky
Like having to work in Saudi Arabia (3 times) was not punishment enough! I hope he gets back to his family in one piece.
Angelo de la Cruz’s brood of eight children appealed to the government on Friday to negotiate for their father’s release. De la Cruz, employed by a Saudi-based company, was seized by Iraqi militants on Wednesday as he delivered crude oil to Iraq. In an interview, Judith de la Cruz-Carreon, 26, eldest daughter of the hostage, appealed to President Arroyo and other government agencies to help free their father. “We are appealing to our beloved President to please, please help our father so that he can be brought home alive. He was only forced to go to the Middle East because it is hard to find work here. We want to be with him. Please have pity on us, President Gloria,” Judith told newsmen in Tagalog and Pampango between sobs Friday.

Judith spoke in behalf of her family as Angelo’s wife, Arsenia, 48, was invited by Overseas Workers Welfare Administration (Owwa) officials to provide detailed information on her husband. She said her father was forced to seek employment in Saudi Arabia, as he had been unemployed for at least two years when his last contract, also in the Middle East, expired. Judith said Angelo has been working overseas for more than nine years. He has been to the Middle Eastern kingdom three times. Angelo left last year for a two-year contract as a truck driver in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, his fourth visit. “We have been telling him that he was too old to be working abroad, but he said that he is working to have the family house improved and save enough for a small business, then he would stop,” Judith said. Angelo sends P7,500 to P10,000 monthly to the family, and that provides for their needs.

She said that their father also worked abroad so that four of the children, one in college, another in high school and two others in elementary, could finish their studies. Judith is the eldest child followed by Juliesis, 24; Jenielyn, 22; Jacqueline, 19; Joanna 16; Jerome, 11; Jerick, 6; and, the youngest, Jefferson, who at four, still could not speak as he is afflicted with Down’s Syndrome. Jacqueline left for Japan three months ago to look for a job. Besides his dreams for the family that he hopes to achieve with his employment overseas, Judith said her father had debts to pay, accumulated over the years when he was unemployed. Judith said Angelo was also able to buy his eldest son, Juliesis, a tricycle to help him earn a living.

It has been a year and three months since Angelo left for Saudi Arabia on a job he got after more than two years of unemployment. He has not been home since. Judith said she and her mother Arsenia last talked to Angelo on Sunday. “He was in a hurry then as he told us that he had a delivery to make to Iraq. He told us to call him after four days,” Judith said. However, they could no longer get in touch with him on Thursday, saying all they heard was the Saudi operator. It was later on that they learned about his capture on television. Members of Angelo’s family, relatives and neighbors appealed to everyone through placards to pray for Angelo’s safety and for his safe return as they are fearful that the fate that befell an American and a South Korean might happen to Angelo, unless the government takes immediate steps to resolve the situation. ... “We are all praying for our father’s safety and we are appealing to everyone to please join us in prayers. We are praying that he be spared from the fate of the American and Korean who were beheaded,” Judith said, amid tears she and her brothers and sisters could no longer hold back...
Posted by: Anonymous4724 || 07/09/2004 11:55:45 AM || Comments || Link || [6 views] Top|| File under:

#1  One thing is absolutely certain, his Saudi employer will not lift a finger on his behalf, though the Saudi Gov't might - y'know a big PR bonanza awaits them should they decide to try and then succeed. Big juju, Abbie. *hint hint*
Posted by: .com || 07/09/2004 20:41 Comments || Top||


Tape urges war on the US
An al Qaeda operative killed by Saudi police last week urged Muslims in a message taped before his death to join al Qaeda ranks to expel "infidel" Westerners from Saudi Arabia and topple the kingdom’s pro-U.S. monarchy.

"The battle is between Islam and crusaders, good and evil, God’s soldiers and those of the devil, between the mujahideen, led by Sheikh Osama bin Laden and his party of God, and the infidel Americans and their allies in the party of Satan," said the tape purportedly from Fahd bin Ali al-Dakheel al-Ghabalan.

"The mujahideen will continue to fight the infidel Americans whatever the price and fighting them is a duty for all Muslims," said the audio tape on the latest edition of "Sawt al-Jihad", the online publication of the Saudi al Qaeda wing.

The 39-minute-long tape began with a brief introduction about Ghabalan, saying he had fought in Afghanistan before and after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States and that he had been involved in several clashes with Saudi police.

Security forces killed Ghabalan in a shootout in the Saudi capital Riyadh last Wednesday. He was not on a wanted list of 26 top militants but Saudi security sources said he was in charge of overseeing the smuggling of arms and explosives into the kingdom for attacks.

"Victory is near and all Muslims should fulfil their duties by praying to God, supporting us and providing information about where the enemy is located," said the man on the tape, available on Friday.

He accused the Saudi royal family of stealing the country’s oil riches, being Washington’s lackey and betraying Islam by "opening its airports to Americans and giving them military bases and heavily-guarded, luxury residential compounds."

He said al Qaeda would continue its battle until a "real Islamic state" emerged in the ultra-conservative kingdom, which enforces strict Islamic sharia law.

A separate statement on Sawt al-Jihad said last month’s killing of their leader in Saudi Arabia, Abdulaziz al-Muqrin, would only increase the group’s determination. It dismissed a limited one-month government amnesty for militants to surrender, under which two militants have turned themselves in.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/09/2004 8:46:57 AM || Comments || Link || [6 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Wait a minute, didn't this guy's boss want U.S. forces removed from the Magic Kingdom? And didn't that happen? So why the "expansion" of demands to now include "Westerners"?

Sounds like nothing is going to satisfy these Al-Qaida degenerates....
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 07/09/2004 11:50 Comments || Top||

#2  Here's the part I liked best...

Security forces killed Ghabalan in a shootout in the Saudi capital Riyadh last Wednesday.

For you, the war is over.
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/09/2004 11:57 Comments || Top||

#3  muslims are filthy fucking murderers. Their demon god allah is a piece of filthy shit. Their child fucking prophet muhammad is a piece of filthy shit. Their koran is a filthy piece of shit....and I wipe my ass with it's pages.

It's time to rain fire upon these filthy animals and cleanse the earth of their presence.
Posted by: Halfass Pete || 07/09/2004 12:43 Comments || Top||

#4  Jeebus, Pete!
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 12:45 Comments || Top||

#5  Can I use your bathroom Pete? Gotta take a dump.
Posted by: Lucky || 07/09/2004 12:50 Comments || Top||

#6  Hey, Frank - I dunno 'bout you, but when Pete skips the meds, he makes me sound damned reasonable - or wimpy!
Posted by: .com || 07/09/2004 12:53 Comments || Top||

#7  and wiping your ass with a filthy piece of shit sounds counterproductive to me
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 12:54 Comments || Top||

#8  I'm thinking Pete drank about 4 gallons of coffee this morning. He is cranky!
Posted by: remote man || 07/09/2004 13:33 Comments || Top||

#9  Obviously an Italian Sprinter fan.
These things happen,
there's always next year!
And this year Spain and the Olympics.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 13:52 Comments || Top||

#10  It's de-caf for you from now on, HP!
Posted by: Zenster || 07/09/2004 15:51 Comments || Top||

#11  Comeon Halfass, tell us how you really feel!

Dont stop now!
Posted by: CrazyFool || 07/09/2004 16:42 Comments || Top||

#12  Yeah yeah
Posted by: WhiteHouseDetox || 07/09/2004 18:47 Comments || Top||

#13 
HP, dude, you are one hard core Mooslimb hating MOFO! I like that, I can't wait for huntin' season to open.

CiT
Posted by: CiT || 07/09/2004 19:37 Comments || Top||


Dr. Al-Gosaibi Targets Small Businesses Again for Saudization

Friday, 9, July, 2004 (22, Jumada al-Ula, 1425)

Abdul Wahab Bashir, Arab News
 
JEDDAH, 9 July 2004 — Saudi Arabia is planning once again to decrease its dependence on foreign workers in its effort to reduce high unemployment levels throughout the country. An earlier arrangement exempting small businesses from abiding by Saudization laws may come under review as the Ministry of Labor boosts the pace of the transition.
"... decrease its dependence on foreign workers in its effort to reduce high unemployment levels ..."

Don’t worry. That’s happening right now, Saudi Arabia just hasn’t prepared for it at all. Those "foreign workers" make possible a lot of other support and service industry jobs.

Labor Minister Dr. Ghazi Al-Gosaibi said yesterday he was determined to end unemployment, reported Al-Watan newspaper. “I clarified after I was appointed minister that the ministry will adopt a 13-point program to combat the problem of unemployment. These points included curbing the need for foreign workers and raising the standards of Saudi labor,” Al-Gosaibi said.

The minister said he does not expect the problem of unemployment among Saudis to be solved in the short-term. “In regards to the question of when unemployment will be stamped out, I think it is not possible in three years but I hope it will not take longer than nine,” he said.
The only "short-term" solution is emphasizing technical education over religious teaching. That hasn’t been happening a lot and not much will change until it does.
Figures by the Ministry of Finance’s department of statistics show that some 300,000 Saudis or 10 percent of the country’s workforce are unemployed. According to official sources, Saudi Arabia is home to 24 million people, some six million of whom are foreigners.

Al-Gosaibi said he was considering requiring small firms to hire more Saudis under the Saudization program, adding that it is now time to review the arrangement granting small businesses an exception from applying Saudization regulations.
And out come the fangs of a parasitic regime. It’s almost like you could exchange Saudization with Communism. Decreeing more jobs be provided for the unskilled or unmotivated will not pay their salaries. ONE QUARTER of Saudi Arabia’s population is expatriate for a simple reason. After a decades-long running jump at how to extract and refine petroleum distillates, too few Saudis either care or are able to figure out how. This is the ultimate reward of overemphasizing religious scholarship.
“Small institutions with fewer than 20 workers have been completely exempted from Saudization, despite the fact that there is a large number of foreign workers in them. Perhaps it is the time to review that decision,” the minister said. He added that Saudization applies to all businesses, big or small, although up to now the focus has been on big companies because they are more capable of employing and training.

Al-Gosaibi said he hoped the situation regarding settling labor disputes will improve with the introduction of a new labor law currently being discussed by the Shoura Council. “I hope the situation will get better with the new system which will in the long run allow for labor disputes to be settled through Shairah courts as in the case of other disputes.” Asked about businessmen who threaten to move their activities outside the Kingdom if pressed with Saudization, Al-Gosaibi said he cannot force people who do not want to invest in their own country and do not want to employ Saudi citizens from moving their investments off-shore. He, however, hoped the threat was not a serious one.

“Do you think the solution to the (unemployment) problem lies in preventing investors from moving their businesses outside the country or in not taking measures to curb unemployment? “Every country in the world is keen on attracting investments to pave the way for its citizens to find jobs. When an investor comes and says he wants to move his business abroad and does not want to employ Saudi citizens, what can I say to him other than goodbye? I hope such a threat, which I have heard only once, is just a slip of the tongue.”
Posted by: Zenster || 07/09/2004 12:50:51 AM || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I've heard tell that a big problem in addition to the lack of skilled workers is the general attitude and work ethic. Saudi men are supposedly scorful of hard/menial labor and have a hard time accpeting the loss of status associated with being an employee - working for a stranger.

Maybe businesses will pick up and move to Iraq.
Posted by: John in Tokyo || 07/09/2004 4:38 Comments || Top||

#2  "Saudization" -- sounds like something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies.
Posted by: virginian || 07/09/2004 8:47 Comments || Top||

#3  virginian: I think they are our worst enemies.
Posted by: BH || 07/09/2004 9:52 Comments || Top||

#4  so basically each small biz will have to hire two lazy bookend Saoodis to meet a quota. Affirmative Action window dressing
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 10:08 Comments || Top||

#5  They have been trying that for years and it has never worked. Last year, they tried it with taxi drivers. The goal was to get the taxis to be driven by saudis. The results: saudis bought the taxis, registered themselves as drivers, then went ahead and hired some indian or pakistani to drive the taxis for just about nothing. Labor hand here is paid just enough to not be considered slavery. As long as they can hired nationals from other countries at slavery wages, the saudizitation will never take place.
Posted by: Anonymous4724 || 07/09/2004 10:24 Comments || Top||

#6  Once you've herded goats it's very difficult to sit in front of a monitor or pound a nail.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 10:34 Comments || Top||

#7  For one thing, you can't f*ck a monitor.
Posted by: BH || 07/09/2004 10:37 Comments || Top||

#8  You might note that the only way that a programme like this could work, even or paper, would be to expel large numbers of foreigners. (Hint, hint.)


Posted by: Anonymoose || 07/09/2004 11:17 Comments || Top||

#9  You want fries with that...INFIDEL!
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/09/2004 12:24 Comments || Top||

#10  tu - Lol! If you only knew, lol, what it's like in a place like KFC or Burger King in SaoodiLand!

No lines (they're for infidels, I guess), just a crush against the counter and, on the other side, a frightened-looking Filipino or Indian, not sure who to serve first! This is the norm. I almost got in trouble my first week in '92 cuz I grabbed some asshole and pushed him to the end of the "line" (actually, a mob I was blocking from getting past me) in a Wendy's in Dammam. When my friends and I got our orders and left the building, they all broke out laughing at me and explained that I had prolly deeply offended some big-wig's kid. I do recall the incredible look of shock and surprise on his face as I put him back behind me, lol! If he HAD been a Saudi somebody, no doubt I would've been tossed out of SA. I had a similar 'duh' moment in a bank with some Indian who was so close behind me in line (banks rope everything off so there are actually lines, heh) that I thought I was about to discover the joys of anal. I turned around, stiff-armed his ass 2 feet back, and told him he'd get to the front in the same length of time, so just stay off my ass. His look was one of pure mystification. All of the Saudis working in the bank snickered - and I got wonderful service when I got to the Teller, lol! After about a month I figured out how to get along there by just giving them a "look", lol! Sigh, what a fucking freak show.
Posted by: .com || 07/09/2004 12:45 Comments || Top||

#11  Sirrauh! I am only here to make tiny depsoit!
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 13:55 Comments || Top||

#12  No matter what the size - that window is closed! Lol!
Posted by: .com || 07/09/2004 13:59 Comments || Top||


Britain
SUICIDE BOMBER VERDICTS
The brother and sister of British suicide bomber Omar Khan Sharif are to be retried on allegations they failed to stop his attempted Israeli bomb attack. Three people died when Sharif and his accomplice Asif Hanif launched an attack on a busy Tel Aviv bar in April last year. Sharif’s explosives failed to go off but his body was found offshore the following month. His brother, Zahid, and sister, Parveen, were ordered to be retried at the Old Bailey in November on charges of failing to report information which could have prevented an act of terrorism. Jurors had failed to reach a verdict on the pair. Parveen, a 36-year-old teacher, was also ordered to be retried on a charge of inciting her brother to commit an act of terrorism after a jury failed to agree verdicts.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 1:02:53 AM || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  And in my home town of Derby they were distributing leflets outside the Mosque asking 'are you British or Muslim?' Apparently the two put together are an oxymoron. Many good and decent muslims in Derby are being dragged into the mire by scum like these - notably affluent, educated public school types. Shoot 'em.
Posted by: Howard UK || 07/09/2004 6:40 Comments || Top||

#2  Howard, it sounds like an total invasion by jihadists.

God save the Queen and all her loyal subjects.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 17:30 Comments || Top||

#3  Drawing is from the 3rd Afghan War.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 17:32 Comments || Top||


Knife smuggled on board BA jet
British Airways has launched an investigation after a journalist smuggled an 8in Buck Knife on to a high-risk flight in the Middle East. The weapon went unnoticed by security guards at Kuwait airport who allowed The Sun reporter to board the BA flight back to London’s Heathrow. Placed at the bottom of hand luggage, the knife, which has a 3.5in blade, passed through two X-ray machines without raising an alarm. The reporter then boarded the Boeing 777 with the knife and was photographed with the weapon as he sat in business class.

A British Airways spokeswoman said security at Kuwait airport is the responsibility of the Directorate General for Civil Aviation, part of the Kuwait government. "We take this incident extremely seriously and have launched an immediate investigation," she said. "The DGCA carries out security searches on behalf of all airlines at Kuwait airport. "On receiving information about this incident, we immediately contacted the DGCA and asked them to review security as well as implementing additional measures at Kuwait airport. "We are also sending security experts to the area to work with the Kuwaiti government to satisfy and reassure ourselves that all security procedures carried out by the DGCA are of the highest standard."
Has the reporter been horse-whipped yet?
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 12:55:50 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  In this case it was a bull whip which was utilized.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 21:30 Comments || Top||


China-Japan-Koreas
N Korea prepares for war against US
North Korea’s defence chief urged soldiers on Thursday to step up combat preparations, denouncing the United States for plotting an attack on the communist country. The order was contained in a speech made by Defence Minister Kim Il-Chol to mark the 10th anniversary of the death of former North Korean president Kim Il-Sung. “The service-persons will increase the combat capability and step up the combat preparations in every way under the uplifted slogan of a-match-for-a hundred (a soldier capable of beating 100 enemy soldiers) to defend as firm as an iron wall the socialist motherland,” he said. The defence minister accused Washington of stepping up “preparations for a war of aggression behind the curtain of the six-party talks.” North Korea is ready to mobilise its “military deterrent force built up for years ... and accomplish the historic cause of national reunification without fail,” he said. North Korea regularly accuses the United States of plotting a surprise attack on the Stalinist state.
Posted by: Fred || 07/09/2004 10:59:23 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  yawn . . .
Posted by: spiffo || 07/09/2004 0:31 Comments || Top||

#2  The Norks better have their model railroad train tracks fixed up good for their resupply from the Chicoms. Materael goes quickly in a sea of fire campaign.
Posted by: Alaska Paul in Fairbanks || 07/09/2004 0:37 Comments || Top||

#3  Why are the US and neighbors still feeding NK. Let the NK Army cannibalize (literally) itself.
Posted by: ed || 07/09/2004 0:54 Comments || Top||

#4  Seven carriers going to the area, and NK is preparing for war...
Posted by: Anonymous5628 || 07/09/2004 2:12 Comments || Top||

#5  Heard Dear Leader shot an 18 yesterday. Not bad for 18 holes.
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/09/2004 8:15 Comments || Top||

#6  Starting to get tired of hearing this dog yap....
Posted by: JerseyMike || 07/09/2004 8:41 Comments || Top||

#7  Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite?
Posted by: BH || 07/09/2004 9:54 Comments || Top||

#8  Nothing to see here, just Dear Leader channeling the Great Leader (eternal president).

The minister’s speech came after North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il and top army officers made a midnight visit to a mausoleum where the embalmed body of Kim Il-Sung has been lying in state. Kim Il-Sung governed the Stalinist country for 46 years until his death by building a personality cult around him and his family. North Koreans still call their deceased leader “eternal president.”
Posted by: RWV || 07/09/2004 10:46 Comments || Top||

#9  Heard Dear Leader shot an 18 yesterday. Not bad for 18 holes.

Happy's Kimmie's got a short game!
Posted by: Raj || 07/09/2004 12:38 Comments || Top||

#10  He got a hole-in-one on the Windmill? Whoa, now I'm jealous!
Posted by: .com || 07/09/2004 12:46 Comments || Top||

#11  word is that his Caddy OddJob kicked it in for him
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 12:48 Comments || Top||

#12  Lol! No make that LMAO!!!
Posted by: .com || 07/09/2004 12:58 Comments || Top||

#13  A caddie checked his bag, Driver, L wedge and a putter. Putters like new!
Posted by: Lucky || 07/09/2004 13:00 Comments || Top||

#14  I'm surprised that he wasn't observe 10 year anniversary? Or was Dad a big golfer too?

BTW: I've had cousins point out to me the exact spot their Dad my Uncle died on a golf course.

"Yep, Tom right here, a little to the left of the oak"

Jeez.....
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 13:59 Comments || Top||

#15  I was a greenskeeper for a coupla years in HS. There were two spots that I was regularly asked to point out - local legend was attached: where the two people who had been struck by lightening, and fried, were hit. Golfers are a strange brew, lol!
Posted by: .com || 07/09/2004 14:05 Comments || Top||

#16  Personal to PD....

I've buried two dogs on golf courses with the help of greenskeepers. :)

Naturally they are located (seriously) at two par 5s with bends in them. They are in the bends. :)
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 17:05 Comments || Top||


Europe
France ’forming ethnic ghettoes’
The study by the French domestic intelligence services found many areas were populated by poor, young French of north African immigrant backgrounds. The report, leaked to Le Monde newspaper, found at least half of the 630 suburbs it looked at had already become separate ethnic communities. The report warned the ghettoes, cut off from mainstream French society, could encourage radical Islam to take root. The intelligence service report deals with an extremely sensitive issue for France: just how bad the sense of alienation has become in the suburbs, among the French-born children of north African immigrant background.

The report - given to the interior minister, Dominique de Villepin - concludes that the situation is actually worse than previously thought. Of the suburbs studied, the report says at least half could already be called ghettoes, whose inhabitants felt rejected by, and were in turn rejecting, mainstream French society. The areas studied were chosen because they already had problems with unemployment, crime and violence, had a high proportion of immigrant families - some still practising polygamy - plus a growing number of Islamic prayer rooms as well as frequent anti-Western and anti-Semitic graffiti. The intelligence services noted that many families of immigrant origin were rejecting French values and even the French language, following instead more traditional ways of life associated with their ethnic origin - including an increasing religious radicalisation among young Muslims, and a backlash against young Muslim women who wore Western clothing.
[snip]
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 07/09/2004 8:24:44 PM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Send their asses back to Algeria/North Africa, but wait, that would be to simple.

Oh yea and Villepin you are a cockroach loving, weasle blowing, turd.
Posted by: FlameBait93268 || 07/10/2004 1:43 Comments || Top||

#2  Still practising polygamy...

Don't see where that's a problem for the French-in their minds, it's a matter of sophistication. Remember how proud they were that the widow and the mistress showed up at a certain president's funeral?

Backlash against women, rejecting French language, increasing religious radicalization-France, you better WAKE UP.
Posted by: jules 2 || 07/10/2004 8:16 Comments || Top||


Increased terror threat in the Netherlands....
Dutch authorities are placing guard posts near potential terrorist targets in the Netherlands this Friday evening . The AIVD (Dutch intelligence service) has indications that radical muslims could be preparing attacks....
Posted by: Dutchgeek || 07/09/2004 5:35:12 PM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Since my German sucks, my Dutch is even worse. Can't understand anything except they think muslim terrorists will go after "soft targets." Tunnels, apparently (probably among other things). They name Schipol (Amsterdam airport, IIRC), Rotterdam, and another tunnel.

Anybody read Dutch? TGA, can you make it out? (To this American at least, Dutch sort of resembles German but with lots of double vowels. :-p)

Nice to see somebody in Europe getting it. I wish them luck. (And hope their courts don't turn loose anyone they capture.)
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 07/09/2004 20:46 Comments || Top||


Catholic Church equates anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism
This is for all you good Catholics out there, and for Anti. Faisal won’t accept the source as valid anyway. Hat-tip LGF
The Catholic Church condemned anti-Zionism as a cover for anti-Semitism by means of a joint statement issued by a forum of Catholic-Jewish intellectuals this week. The announcement was made at a gathering of religious, academic and other leading Jewish and Catholic figures in Buenos Aires. "We oppose anti-Semitism in any way and form, including anti-Zionism that has become of late a manifestation of anti-Semitism," the statement said. This is the first time that anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism have been equated by the Catholic Church. The statement also includes a stern condemnation of terrorism, particularly terror in the name of faith. "Terror is a sin against man and against God. Fundamentalist terrorism in the name of God has no justification and cannot be justified."
I guess this means Kerry no longer considers Arafat to be a statesman?
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/09/2004 2:27:39 PM || Comments || Link || [8 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Our same Jewish friends who went overboard on fears over "The Passion of the Christ" should acknowledge this. I'm Catholic, not Jewish, but I'd fight for Israel
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 19:54 Comments || Top||

#2  Dear Frank G.,

Thank you for your welcome earlier. I have been very happy to be wrong about my concerns over the "Passion." And, as the child of an Israeli, I must say I've been awed by the strong support of so many Americans for Israel in these troubled times (ok, so all times are troubled, more or less...but these happen to be my times!)

Thank you all!!
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/09/2004 21:24 Comments || Top||

#3  Frank, well stated. It was liberal Jews, many that do not even support Israel in her time of need which blasted Mel Gibson on political grounds.

This move by the Church was long over due, but welcome!
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 21:36 Comments || Top||

#4  I wouldn't go so far, Mark - conservative talk show host Steve Malzberg was similarly unhappy about the movie, due to the comments of Mel's father, but I plan to inform him of this revelation tonight ^^
Posted by: Edward Yee || 07/09/2004 21:50 Comments || Top||

#5 
I know, Mel's father was very wrong, but he is not Mel.

The bottom line is the Islamists, neo-nazis and every other crack pot hate group has been using 'anti-Zionism as a mask for blatant Jew hating.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 21:58 Comments || Top||

#6  no wish to rekindle the "passion" hoopla, but TW, you're welcome, and as a Christian (even as flawed/lapsed as I am) one should do no less. Israel: the ONLY democracy in the ME (depending on Iraq's outcome, that could change) that allows Jews and Arabs to vote. THE ONLY! Counter that with anti-zionist hate speech Antiwar and Faisal...assholes
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 22:09 Comments || Top||

#7  Mark, I've heard that Mel reportedly told friends of his personal exasperation with his dad's antics, so he somehow takes the nuanced position of "I disagree with my dad, I just won't call him out on it in public" :-P
Posted by: Edward Yee || 07/09/2004 22:31 Comments || Top||

#8  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 22:52 Comments || Top||

#9  'anti-war'... you and your Jew hating leftist horde would gladly welcome Islamic terrorist gangs butchering every Israeli.

Go protest something, if you can stand long enough after consuming your daily quota of illegal drugs.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 22:58 Comments || Top||

#10  antiwar, you sound sexy......
Posted by: Evil Jack || 07/09/2004 23:03 Comments || Top||

#11  in a stupid "I like to be hit - make me wear a burqa" way?
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 23:13 Comments || Top||

#12  true Frank G., but at least the burqa will never make her look fat.........
Posted by: Evil Jack || 07/09/2004 23:16 Comments || Top||

#13  Antiwar - why don't you and the rest of the Hitler Youth crawl back under your rock.
Posted by: A Jackson || 07/09/2004 23:17 Comments || Top||

#14  Where's OldSpook! Someone give him a "ping"! (That is, send this article to him!)
Posted by: Edward Yee || 07/09/2004 23:30 Comments || Top||

#15  What we should be suprized that the lefties hate jews? I though it was a forgone conclusion that the left/socialist/commies hated jews?

antiwar don't get in the way of any dozer blades.
Posted by: FlameBait93268 || 07/09/2004 23:38 Comments || Top||

#16  I'm glad to hear that the Catholic church has finally made this distinction- however, my home church has already been saying this for a very long time.....what took them so long? I'm a little ignorant here- someone plse enlighten me on this issue.
Posted by: Curious || 07/09/2004 23:46 Comments || Top||

#17  Either hard-lefties in the higher ranks, or hard deliberation on the subject ...

(See its ruminations on Iraq and Abu Ghraib - the Pope's anti-war stance was a "prudential judgement", and you weren't nearly as out-of-line as pro-abortion politicians are for disagreeing.)
Posted by: Edward Yee || 07/09/2004 23:48 Comments || Top||

#18  Admittedly, my church has made serious errors in the past. We can only appreciate when they do the right thing, and demand they continue (on this and other issues). No-one should accept anything less, and I certainly don't. Wouldn't it be refreshing to hear a CAIR official or Saudi royal say the same?
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 23:52 Comments || Top||

#19  When I hear these words promulgated by the Vatican secretary of state, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, or is it the other way around) or His Holiness Pope John Paul II -- that is, literally ex cathedra, "from the seat" -- I will be reaffirmed in my belief in a One True God who is the r0x0rz XD
Posted by: Edward Yee || 07/10/2004 0:00 Comments || Top||

#20  oh...
Posted by: muck4doo || 07/10/2004 0:49 Comments || Top||

#21  The Catholic Church condemned anti-Zionism as a cover for anti-Semitism.

Finally. GOOD! But that's only the beginning. A few presidents and prime ministers need to step up to the plate and do the same.
Posted by: jules 2 || 07/10/2004 8:28 Comments || Top||

#22  Zionism is against zionists whether they be jews or christians

Not all jews or christians are zionists
Therefore being anti zionist is not the same as being anti jew (a person can be both though)
I am not antijew just antizionist whether zionist is christian or jew.
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 22:52 Comments || Top||


Yeslam bin Laden would never turn his bro in
A half-brother of Osama bin Laden said in a television interview he never thinks of whether to turn in the al-Qaida leader and questioned which court would try him. Asked hypothetically whether he would turn in the al-Qaeda leader, Yeslam Binladin replied: "What do you think? Would you turn in your brother? Or half brother? Tell me. I put the question back to you. You answer it."

In the testy exchange broadcast Friday on the "Today" show, NBC’s Matt Lauer responded by saying that someone accused of murdering thousands should have their day in court, to which Binladin agreed. He then asked "Which court?" when Lauer again questioned whether Binladin would turn in his brother. "We will go in circles if you want to continue the question," Binladin said. More of the interview was scheduled to air on "Dateline" Friday night. Binladin, a Swiss banker who spells his name differently from his half-brother, previously has said he condemns his brother’s actions. Binladin has been under scrutiny in France and Switzerland during a money-laundering investigation but has never been charged.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/09/2004 1:18:00 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  What a lovely family.
Posted by: ex-lib || 07/09/2004 14:24 Comments || Top||

#2  In the testy exchange broadcast Friday on the "Today" show, NBC’s Matt Lauer responded by saying that someone accused of murdering thousands should have their day in court, to which Binladin agreed.

He then asked "Which court?" when Lauer again questioned whether Binladin would turn in his brother.

"We will go in circles if you want to continue the question," Binladin said.


This only serves to put into plain view for all to see the futility of treating terrorism as a law enforcement matter.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 07/09/2004 15:38 Comments || Top||


Belgian to come home after Guantanamo deal
A Belgian man being held in Saudi Arabia is to return home following a secret deal between the Saudi authorities and the US over prisoners at the Guantanamo army base on the island of Cuba, it was reported on Thursday.
Susssssh! It's a secret, don't tell anyone!
Flemish newspaper De Morgen reported that Saudis are to exchange eight prisoners held in Saudi Arabia, including Belgian Raf Schyvens, for five Saudi members of the Al Qaeda network, who are currently imprisoned at Guantanamo. Despite the fact that it will benefit from the return of one of its citizens, Belgium did not support the US-Saudi deal. The Saudi government has an extremely poor human rights record and it is not known how the Guantanamo prisoners will be treated when they arrive back in their home country.
Most likely as heroes.
Posted by: Steve || 07/09/2004 10:41:53 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  They'll get the usual intense interrogation from Nayef's minions:

"Cake or Death?"
Posted by: .com || 07/09/2004 13:16 Comments || Top||

#2  Thought he might be one of the famous "alk runners". Then again, seeing it's Saudi, he might be. This is from our friends at Amnesia International.

On 4 February, the Minister of Interior, Prince Naif bin 'Abdul 'Aziz,
announced on Saudi Arabian television that William Sampson, Alexander Mitchell
and Raf Schyvens were under arrest and that they had ''confessed'' to bombings
in Riyadh. The bombings on 17 and 22 November 2000 resulted in the death of one
man and injury to many others. The announcement was followed by film footage of
the three men showing William Sampson and Alexander Mitchell 'confessing' to
having carried out the bombings, and adding that Raf Schyvens was also involved
in one of the bombings.
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/09/2004 16:54 Comments || Top||


Sleep well tonight, France is on guard!
Two-year-old twins from the UK had their plastic toy swords seized at a French airport, say their parents. Olivia and Eva Ryan, from Luton, Beds, were waiting with their parents to check in at Charles de Gaulle Airport after a trip to EuroDisney. The children's father, Peter Ryan, said French officials classed the swords as replica weapons.
I classify France as a replica country
He said the family tried to stress they went with Peter Pan outfits and would be difficult to replace. Mr Ryan told the BBC: "When the swords were taken away the children burst into tears. "She (my partner) was absolutely furious. But I tended to let it go because I do work at airports and thought 'we'll get two swords when we get home'. We get through customs, and you've got a gift shop selling large die-cast metal 11in Eiffel Tower spikes."
With nice sharp points, but they're of a French landmark, so it's ok.
Mr Ryan said he understood the need for security, but felt these officials went too far. "I think it was a little bit of an over-reaction to these toy swords, and an under-reaction to the Eiffel Towers and the bottles of alcohol available after the check-in, " he said.
Well, with US airport security taking away nail clippers and strip searching little old ladies, we shouldn't be surprised.

A spokesman for Charles De Gaulle Airport refused to comment on the incident.
Posted by: Steve || 07/09/2004 10:08:11 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Well, with US airport security taking away nail clippers

The involuntary nail clipper removal effort is actually a clever plot to stockpile strategic metals and rare fungus for the coming era of low sense.

Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 10:39 Comments || Top||

#2  Yeah, that sucks folks, but at least the airport didn't collapse on top of you, so it could've been worse.
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/09/2004 10:41 Comments || Top||

#3  It's just because they were English children. If they had been 25 year old bearded jihadis with box cutters, the Frogs would have wished them well and sent them on their way. What a waste of oxygen.
Posted by: RWV || 07/09/2004 10:41 Comments || Top||

#4  I believe nail clippers are now allowed on flights. But I have one better. I recently flew Business Class out of De Gaulle (Roissy) and after the brutal French security check where I was asked if I had any "sharp objects" I replied "only my rapier wit" and was summarily dismissed to a small tent where I was frisked and stripped. Okay, fun at any price. But at the lounge inside security I was offered dinner and used (switch off suprise meter)perfectly fine sterling silver dinnerware.
Posted by: Jack is Back! || 07/09/2004 10:51 Comments || Top||

#5  Isn't there some kind of mental illness associated with mindlessly following "zero tolerance" laws?

Perhaps the frontal lobe of their brain, which controls judgement, has been damaged. Large amounts of alcohol can impair judgement for up to six months, as an example.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 07/09/2004 11:06 Comments || Top||

#6  What gets me is that...not only were they children, but girls at that! Man, the Euroweenies are afraid of lil' British girls w/ plastic swords now, eh? Of course, some of the U.S. searches/seizures are just as mind numbing in the name of P.C. and not profiling people. Last year, I actually saw the security people in Jacksonville, FL (would've thought at least some sort of reasoning ability there) stop "randomly" a UNIFORMED US soldier to frisk him! I should've said something to him (Like, Hey thanks for protecting this guy's "right" to search you w/o suspicion) on the way onto the plane, but didn't get a chance, as they wisked him away a little bit to frisk/question him.
Posted by: BA || 07/09/2004 11:36 Comments || Top||

#7  It's almost six hundred years since Agincourt, and these guys are still scared shitless of any English person with a sword.

I am impressed, though, that the French airport officials did not simply surrender on the spot. One of them must have been descended from Jeanne D'Arc.
Posted by: Matt || 07/09/2004 11:55 Comments || Top||

#8  I replied "only my rapier wit" and was summarily dismissed to a small tent where I was frisked and stripped. Okay, fun at any price.

LOL. I half believe you!

You should have replied "Only my rapier like rapier"
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 14:01 Comments || Top||

#9  I was in uniform w/ID card and everything and got frisked at both Charlotte and Detroit's airports; the security folks were just doing their job but it was still pretty silly imho.
Posted by: Jarhead || 07/09/2004 16:35 Comments || Top||

#10  Matt

Joan d'Arc died a virgin. It is more probable that the aiport officials descended from the guys who crushed Lord Talbott at Castillon.
Posted by: JFM || 07/09/2004 18:08 Comments || Top||

#11  JFM - Touche. And I hope that one day some descendants of the men who fought at Castillon and Verdun will come forward to take their place in the WOT.
Posted by: Matt || 07/09/2004 19:48 Comments || Top||

#12  #9 Jarhead...thanks for your service! My point was somewhat about a uniformed officer, but it was more about the P.C. s#it we put up with by NOT profiling. Last I read, all the terrorists that I know of (with the exception of Ireland in the 80s) in recent history have been MUSLIM, and generally younger males (not including the Paleos sending women homicide bombers into Israel). I'm afraid that we may be winning the war abroad, but losing it here at home, with P.C. reigning! Until this country wakes up and realizes that these "lunatic fringes" (as Aris calls them) are not fringes, but what the mainstream Muslims believe, although, most of them don't act on it, we're not aware of "who are enemy truly is."
Posted by: BA || 07/09/2004 23:23 Comments || Top||


France to Shift to High Gear Fighting Islamic Fascism Racism
Amid concerns over mounting xenophobic violence, French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin will summon regional leaders in September to draw up measures to combat racism and anti-Semitism, the government said Friday. A day after President Jacques Chirac urged renewed efforts against "the darkest side of human nature," Raffarin decided to assemble all local prefects for a strategy session. The latest sign of concern coincided with the leak of part of an official report noting a sharp rise in religious and ethnic tensions in state schools, mostly from Muslim youths trying to impose Islamist values and reject Western ways. Government spokesman Jean-Francois Cope said the September meeting would toughen the official reaction to racist crimes. Anti-Semitic violence and neo-Nazi profanations of cemeteries -- Jewish, Muslim and Christian -- have risen in recent months. "This will be the occasion for the interior minister to announce a series of very concrete measures," he said without giving details. "In this area, we’ll shift into high gear."

In his speech, Chirac urged police and local officials to crack down harder on hate crime and said state prosecutors should appeal against any lenient sentences handed down for racist, anti-Semitic or homophobic violence. Cope said officials should also register hate crimes more thoroughly and do more to help their victims. September was already shaping up as a tense time in France because an official ban on Muslim headscarves is due to be imposed when schools reopen. Islamic activists have started campaigning to convince schoolgirls to defy the ban. The draft Education Ministry report, leaked to Le Figaro and Le Monde newspapers, said a survey of 61 high schools in disadvantaged neighborhoods showed both Muslim and Jewish pupils increasingly made religious demands at school.

These pupils increasingly refused to eat meat if it was not slaughtered by halal or kosher rules and skipped classes on Fridays or Saturdays for religious services. During the Ramadan fasting month, pious Muslim pupils exerted so much pressure for all Muslims to stop eating that even some non-Muslim pupils joined in to avoid standing out. In one primary school, Muslim children insisted only they could use one sink in the lavatories while "the French" had to use the other, the report said. A local Muslim activist asked another school to build separate locker rooms for Muslims and Christians because "a circumcised boy cannot get undressed next to an impure one." More and more mothers are now so fully veiled they cannot be identified, it said, forcing one school to use a windowless room where they have to uncover their faces to a woman teacher in order to be allowed to pick up their children.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) || 07/09/2004 10:18:01 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Well the first thing they could do to help would be to quit their national policy of anti-semitism which predates this century. I can just see them now as jews and "travelers" we loaded on the box cars for NAZI extermination camps cherring the ss guards. They could quit coddling "north africans" and semd them back home for good when they are caught giving "kill whitey" sermons. Finally they can't be homophobes. They have Chirac don't they?
Posted by: FlameBait93268 || 07/09/2004 17:29 Comments || Top||

#2  Yep, to date this year antisemitic attacks in France have already exceeded the amount for the entire year of 2003.

Ie: nearly doubled this year.
http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1274&storyid=1603715

I wonder WHO could be responsible for that?

If you demographically broke down those responsible for the antisemitic acts would it be
a) mixed?
b) buddhists?
c) presbyterians?
d) islamists?
Posted by: Anon1 || 07/10/2004 0:16 Comments || Top||


Cyprus arrests Pakistani students
Ten Pakistani yoots youths have been arrested in Cyprus on national security grounds, the country’s interior minister said. The students were arrested during a police swoop in Larnaca, on the south-east coast, on Wednesday. Lawyers said one of the Pakistanis had already been deported, with other orders pending. The director of the college they were attending said they were excellent students and that their parents were "furious" at the arrests. Cypriot Interior Minister Andreas Christou said: "I can confirm that instructions were given for their arrest for security reasons, nothing more."

Government spokesman, Kypros Chrysostomides, said: "Police worked on information received and took those measures dictated by the circumstances of top security and terrorism." He said the "letter of the law" had been followed in the arrests. The local Politis newspaper reported that the students were detained after overseas sources told Cypriot authorities the students were suspected of belonging to al-Qaeda. The Pakistanis were attending the Intercollege school - its director, Nicos Nicolaou, said they were "excellent students". A British friend of one of the arrested students told the AFP news agency the Pakistanis did not know each other well. "Nobody understands why they are being held because of links to terrorism," the friend said. In Cyprus, deportations can be carried out without court appearances.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/09/2004 8:43:45 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:


General hits out at ’folly of Blair’s military cutbacks

Friday, 9th July 2004

GETHIN CHAMBERLAIN AND JAMES KIRKUP

Key points
• Claims military cutbacks will increase risk of friendly fire
• Rosyth say they need to gain contracts to divert closure
• Defence Secretary is expected to announce a forces shake-up

Key quote "He has embarked on a greater series of campaigns than any prime minister in recent history. Every time he does that, it is the soldiers, sailors and airmen that bail him out." - Lieutenant General Sir John MacMillan

Story in full ONE of Scotland’s most distinguished former soldiers has launched a blistering attack on Tony Blair, accusing the Prime Minister of folly for planning defence cuts at a time when the country is so heavily committed to military campaigns.

Lieutenant General Sir John MacMillan, the former General Officer Commanding, Scotland, said the plans to reduce military strength would have a devastating knock-on effect, exposing troops to greater dangers, including an increased risk of friendly fire. And with the government due to announce cuts that are expected to include the loss of at least one Scottish regiment, possibly two, Gen MacMillan questioned whether the risk to Britain’s ability to deal with future threats had been properly thought through. His comments came as defence sources told The Scotsman that Rosyth dockyard faces massive redundancies and even closure if Gordon Brown, the Chancellor, does not find more money for the industry. Worried Scottish Labour MPs have secured a meeting with Adam Ingram, the armed forces minister, next Tuesday to voice their concerns over the proposed cuts.

And last night Gen MacMillan, Scotland’s most senior soldier until he retired in 1991, weighed into the campaign to save the threatened regiments with a broadside against Mr Blair. He said the Prime Minister had committed British forces to war during his leadership more heavily than at any time since 1945. "Never can a government department have done more to rescue a prime minister from his folly than the Ministry of Defence," he said. "He has embarked on a greater series of campaigns than any prime minister in recent history. Every time he does that, it is the soldiers, sailors and airmen that bail him out." "Those who have lost their lives in conflicts entered into by this government are unable to speak for themselves, but the rate of operational deployment by all three services in the past ten years has been far beyond anything that has occurred since 1945.
I vote for the following as key quote:
"Gratitude alone should make defence cuts unthinkable at such a time.
And here comes the real key point:
"Only the most cynical government would say with one breath that we are involved in a war on terror, and at the same time reduce the armed forces to a state where there is no flexibility at all in their budget to prepare for the development of this very real threat."

Gen MacMillan said the number of operational tours that soldiers were now expected to carry out had a major impact on training time, "which leads to the risk of errors such as casualties from friendly fire, and to the pressures from families to cut short a career which puts service before the duties of a parent or husband". That in turn led to a need for training more recruits, a vicious circle that was completed when a lack of funds then prevented the recruits being trained.

"The same government has no doubt conducted a threat appraisal, and decided that all foreseen dangers are covered," he continued. "Did they foresee the invasion of Kuwait, the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia, or the need to intervene in Afghanistan or the latest Iraq war?" he asked. "How can they be sure that the unexpected is now covered? The same government will no doubt call for the only men and women who are not subject to the maximum working hours directive, and are not permitted to strike, when the next period of industrial disruption breaks about their ears." Military sources have told The Scotsman that the Royal Scots and the Highlanders are at greatest risk in the cuts, which are due to be announced next week. There have also been warnings from senior officers that all of Scotland’s regiments may have to be rolled up into one super regiment. But last night defence sources revealed that the Rosyth dockyard is also under threat.

The Chancellor has been warned that Rosyth’s order book is dangerously thin after current contracts are completed later this year. Executives at Babcock, the yard’s owners, and workers at the yard believe that Rosyth would need to win a contract to overhaul HMS Richmond and at least four others like it to avert potential closure, even though the MoD has recently agreed to share some of the yard’s operating costs. "Some job losses are pretty much inevitable. What we’re talking about is outright closure," said a source close to the debate about Rosyth’s future. Labour MPs and trade unions have been putting pressure on Mr Brown, whose own Dunfermline East constituency is home to many of Rosyth’s 1,800 workers, to find more cash for defence in next week’s spending review.

While many at the Fife yard had hoped that a major contract to participate in building the Royal Navy’s next generation of aircraft carriers would secure Rosyth’s future, industry insiders are warning that the work on the carriers may come too late to save the yard. Wrangling over the contract to build the new carriers between the Ministry of Defence and the prime contractor, BAE Systems, means Rosyth is unlikely to see any work until 2007 at the earliest. Some in the defence industry even fear that a combination of spending cuts and problems agreeing the specifications of the carriers could push back the start of construction even further. The Transport and General Workers’ Union, which represents many of the Rosyth workforce, last night said there are "real fears" for the yard because of the gap in the order book.

"The protracted wrangling over the final details of the aircraft carrier contract is threatening to open up a hole in Rosyth’s workload causing massive and unnecessary redundancies," said Jack Dromey, the TGWU’s deputy general secretary. "The government should act now to give the go-ahead for the carrier order and for work to Rosyth to tide the yard over until that carrier order starts." Following Monday’s spending review, Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, is expected to announce a wide-ranging shake-up of the armed forces, and experts predict the Royal Navy may suffer particularly badly. A tighter budget will add impetus to a trend within the MoD towards a slimmed-down navy, part of the movement toward a so-called "network-enabled" military based on hi-tech weapons and communications systems.
You mean like the ones they want to sell China?
Posted by: Zenster || 07/09/2004 4:52:43 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:


Home Front: Politix
Senate report blast CIA intel on Iraq
The CIA failed to penetrate Saddam Hussein’s regime sufficiently before the war to find out what weapons Iraq possessed, and agency analysts applied faulty logic to the sketchy information they did have to conclude Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, a Senate committee report due out today says. On the eve of the scheduled release of the report highly critical of his agency, CIA Director George Tenet bade an emotional farewell to agency employees Thursday, calling the criticism "the nature of a tough, essential business."

Though the report focuses on the CIA and does not discuss the White House role, Senate Democrats charge that the Bush administration is also to blame for overplaying shaky prewar intelligence on Iraq. Michigan Sen. Carl Levin, the No. 2 Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, said Thursday that a newly declassified CIA finding shows that the administration exaggerated prewar reports asserting links between al-Qaeda and Saddam’s regime. The 560-page Senate Intelligence Committee report was described in broad terms by 10 officials with knowledge of its contents, including committee members, staffers and U.S. intelligence officials. The aides and intelligence officials requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject. The report examines the intelligence gathering process on Iraq, including the failure to find any of the chemical and biological weapons that the CIA said Saddam possessed. Those weapons were one of the justifications for war in Iraq.

"The report finds that the intelligence community’s reporting on Iraq was not reliable," said Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., a member of the panel. "That is a terrible condemnation of an agency that is our first line of defense." Among the issues explored:
• CIA field officers who intercepted aluminum tubes bound for Iraq reported that the tubes were for use in uranium centrifuges to make nuclear bomb fuel, even though the officers had no expertise in bombmaking. Agency analysts and outside experts hired by the CIA then faced bureaucratic opposition to the suggestion that the tubes might have been bought to build ordinary rockets.

• Despite aggressive efforts to contact scientists involved in Iraqi weapons programs, the CIA never got further than a handful of distant relatives who repeated the official line that Iraq had gotten rid of its weapons of mass destruction. Agency spies never reached the scientists themselves.

• The CIA’s intelligence reporting on Iraq warned that information about its weapons was inconclusive, yet the agency went on to reach firm conclusions about those very weapons. About 80 pages of the report have been censored at CIA insistence out of security concerns, an issue that sparked intense negotiations between the committee and the CIA.
"This is a matter of the American people’s right to know if there ever was one," said Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., vice chairman of the committee. "It’s not going to be a happy report."

Tenet’s last day on the job is Sunday, the seven-year anniversary of his swearing-in. He departs as the second-longest-serving director, behind Allen Dulles, who served 1953-61. About 1,500 agency employees, joined by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, FBI Director Robert Mueller and others, attended a send-off ceremony Thursday at CIA headquarters in Langley, Va. "These have been eventful years, filled with exhilaration and triumph, with pain and sorrow, and, yes, with questions about our performance," Tenet said.

President Bush has not chosen a successor but is considering former Navy secretary John Lehman, a member of the Sept. 11 Commission who has sharply criticized the CIA, and Rep. Porter Goss, R-Fla., chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, which said the CIA’s human intelligence operations must be completely revamped.

Tenet has rejected claims that the CIA’s failures stemmed from organizational problems. That attitude prompted Pat Roberts, R-Kan., the Senate panel’s chairman, to say the CIA was "in denial." Tenet was not backing off Thursday. He told CIA employees that "if people or leaders want to take you back in a different direction, then it is your voices that must be heard to say, ’We know better, and we’re not going to put up with it.’ "

Although the Senate committee’s report was approved unanimously, committee Democrats planned to make public "additional views" to argue that Bush administration officials exaggerated Iraq intelligence and must share the blame for faulty prewar judgments. Levin said Thursday that a response by Tenet to a committee query supported that claim. In the July 1 reply, Tenet addressed repeated assertions that Sept. 11 hijacker Mohamed Atta met in Prague with Iraqi intelligence officer Ahmed al-Ani five months before the terrorist attack. "Although we cannot rule it out, we are increasingly skeptical that such a meeting occurred," Tenet wrote, noting "the absence of any credible information that the April 2001 meeting occurred." Before the war, Vice President Cheney said the meeting was "pretty well confirmed." Last month, Cheney said the meeting "has never been proven; it’s never been refuted."
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/09/2004 9:24:33 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  If you want to get good HUMINT, you are going to have to build up a network. That will take time. You will also have to be willing to get your hands dirty. We are collectively too PC to do it right now. Thanks to the LLL congressmen who put politics above the security of this nation.
Posted by: Alaska Paul in Fairbanks || 07/09/2004 0:41 Comments || Top||

#2  Read the report - and search the internet for what has happened to the CIA since the late 1980's.

The CIA has had its nuts in a vice since the early to mid 1990's when its HUMINT sections were virtually disassembled by budget cuts and well-meaning but stupid laws regarding dealing with "criminal" elements in what we call "Indian Country". Technical stuff came to the forefront because it coudl be done without "messy" human interactions, unsavory characters, and much lower political risks. Problem is our enemy requires much more HUMINT oriented measures to counter.

This goes back to a naivte and stupidity of the dis-assembly of the "Black Chamber" (the first US cryptologic group - who were quite proficient in codebreaking and wiretapping) because some pogue Secretary of State declared that "Gentelmen do not read each other's mail". This put the US behind the 8-ball and nearly cost us the war with Pearl Harbor - we only just recovered in time to set up the gamble at Midway by breaking the Japanese codes.

We did that to ourselves again, this time in the HUMINT field in the early-mid 1990's, and have not bothered to try to repair it until 9/11 showed just how badly Congress/Clinton had screwed up.

In the former Baathist/Sammist Iraq, or in places like Somolia, Afghanistan or Iran or North Korea, by definition anyone not ideologically driven (who would come to us anyways) will have to be gought off - and by nature those sorts are seldom clean of criminal conduct in their nation. But laws and budgets precluded us from fielding an effective fore - or even putting adequate number of analysts and resources.

And this report is a capper - it shows just how bad the CIA has been - and how they bled off talent due to budget cuts, leaving them with they best they coudl afford, instead of the very best and brightest.

It will take 5 years to even get a semblance of what we need, and 8-10 years to get an effective and operative capability in key nations and regions. And it will take budget money -something Congress seems unwilling to supply. Seems they'd rather dump it into pork projects for bases we don't need (undoubtably another "Robert Byrd" building or 2 in W.Va).

As for the Dem trying to make this another "Bash Bush" vehicle, thats all too typical - they caused the problems we are now facing with their irresponsible cuts a decade ago that are jsut now becoming evident - and instead of offering up an apology - or a solution, the immediately try to play politics and smear other for political gain.

The Democrat Pary had become despicalbe - they have put personal political power gains ahead of the good of the nation. The bastards.
Posted by: OldSpook || 07/09/2004 2:47 Comments || Top||

#3  Sorry Oldspook, but the bloodletting really began with Stansfield Turner and the dismissal of hundreds of field men. (We didn't have a single CIA man in Afghanistan when the Russians invaded in December 1989.) He and Carter were convinced of the over-riding importance of technical intelligence. And, by the way, they didn't listen to their people when the Shah was poised to fall.
Posted by: Tancred || 07/09/2004 10:01 Comments || Top||


Home Front: WoT
Veteran gets rude welcome on Bainbridge (via Drudge)
Think about the Seattle area -- Bainbridge Island to be exact -- and you think scenic views and liberal-minded tolerance. At least the killer views are still there. The bucolic island's deep reputation for civility got a gut check this week during the annual Grand Old Fourth of July celebration. That's when Jason Gilson, a 23-year-old military veteran who served in Iraq, marched in the local event. He wore his medals with pride and carried a sign that said "Veterans for Bush." Walking the parade route with his mom, younger siblings and politically conservative friends, Jason heard words from the crowd that felt like a thousand daggers to the heart.
"Baby killer!"

"Murderer!"

"Boooo!"
I'd say they're back, but the bastards never left.
To understand why the reaction of strangers hurt so much, you must read what the young man had written in a letter from Iraq before he was disabled in an ambush: "I really miss being in the states. Some of the American public have no idea how much freedom costs and who the people are that pay that awful price. I think sometimes people just see us as nameless and faceless and not really as humans. ... A good portion of us are actually scared that when we come home, for those of us who make it back, that there will be protesters waiting for us and that is scary."
The morally superior, like the poor, will always be with us. In fact, when there is no more poverty, there will still be the morally superior...
On the Fourth, Jason faced his worst fear. It was such a public humiliation — home front insult after battlefield injury.
More at the link...
Posted by: war46 || 07/09/2004 16:11 || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Oh yes...those militant republican women in their red, white and blue. I'm sure the folks in Bainbridge would've felt right at home with a parade of brownshirts.
Posted by: Rex Mundi || 07/09/2004 20:07 Comments || Top||

#2  I've never been confronted w/derision while wearing my uniform at home or in the airport by any LLL morons. Of course most of my travel is from the Carolinas to Detroit and back. There is always a few folks who will shake my hand - usually other vets and old ladies. I also tend to travel w/my wife and son in tow - so I'd be highly surprised if someone would be that stupid to try to confront a Marine in front of his wife & kid. It figures that this guy would get taunted by a bunch of pussies in a crowd where they think they're safe. Typical pussy tactics by pussies.
Posted by: Jarhead || 07/09/2004 20:59 Comments || Top||

#3  I salute military personnel, especially active-duty/reserve ones who've/are serving, when I see them ... noted "Semper Fi" to a Marine I met at my school ...
Posted by: Edward Yee || 07/09/2004 21:38 Comments || Top||

#4  Liberal-minded tolerance - what an oxymoron. Emphasis on the moron.

I never met any of these losers either. In fact, when travelling between duty stations I don't recall ever having to pay for a bite to eat at the airports. Often an old-timer or a family with a child in boot camp would intervene, and I'd get some good conversation as well. People in Chicago, Detroit, and Minneapolis were especially nice.
Posted by: BH || 07/09/2004 23:11 Comments || Top||

#5  Jamieson's a LLL columnist for Puget Pravda the Seattle P-I. I'm surprised to the point of shock that the bastard crawled out from under Baghdad Jim McDermott's desk long enough to write even this limp criticism of his fellow moonbats.

I have the misfortune of living on Bainbridge Island, amongst all these fashionably-leftist assholes. Most of the population consists of ex-hippies and radicals who went to law school, joined blue-chip firms in Seattle and got rich, but never gave up the LLL politics. It's like Marin County with a heavier cloud cover.

The local media NEEDS to get lots of letters on this issue - the name of the Bainbridge 2x/week paper is the "Bainbridge Review", and they have a website. The executive director of the Bainbridge Chamber of Commerce also gave a half-assed "explanation" of the incident which was more of a justification, saying that this poor disabled vet was a representative of President Bush (and essentially DESERVED the abuse he got). Give the CoC a little blast as well - I sure as hell intend to.
Posted by: Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo) || 07/10/2004 1:45 Comments || Top||

#6  http://www.bainbridgereview.com

Here's the link to the local paper. Also has a link to the Chamber of Commerce.
Posted by: Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo) || 07/10/2004 1:52 Comments || Top||

#7  Thank you for the heads up, Ricky. You bet I'm going to send a scathing letter to the editor about this shameful incident. My heart goes out to the soldier.
Posted by: rex || 07/10/2004 2:05 Comments || Top||

#8  Natural selection is not working fast enough in the Island of Bainbridge. Somebody should help mother nature speed up the process.
Posted by: Anonymous4724 || 07/10/2004 3:25 Comments || Top||


Sentence for gas station owner who lied in terrorism probe
A gas station owner today got the maximum sentence of five years in prison for lying about his ties to a Yemeni sheik who raised money in Brooklyn for al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden. The judge said that Numan Maflahi, a Yemen-born U.S. citizen, lied when he told agents that he had limited contact with Sheik Abdullah Satar and no involvement in Satar’s fund raising. FBI agents had watched as Maflahi ``spent almost every waking hour’’ with Satar during a 1999 fund-raising trip to New York. Agents were investigating Satar during the celebrations of the millenium. Maflahi’s attorney, Hassen Abdellah, vowed to appeal.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) || 07/09/2004 6:36:39 PM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  they deported a San Diego man back to Saudi over his ties to 2 of the hijackers, as well as 2 domestic violence (yeah, I know, a Saudi beating teh wife, how surprising) incidents
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 19:09 Comments || Top||


Today's Lileks Moment
Related note: I wonder what’s keeping Israel from taking out Iran’s nuclear bomb-making plants. Either they know it’s too late, or they know the facilities can’t be destroyed by the conventional means, or they have good enough intel to know there’s still some time and they can wait until after the election. And then they’ll go no matter who wins. If they attack now, and Bush gives them the thumbs-up, it could cut either way domestically. Kerry would have to approve or disapprove, for example. I would guess the latter, lest he want to make the UN and the IAEA look like the dithering fools they are. If Kerry approves, then he’s thrown his lot in with the cowboy-unilateralist axis, and if people want that they’ll vote for the genuine article. The far-left fringe will howl that this is all a Zionist plot to influence the election. The far-right fringe will howl that this is all a Zionist plot to influence the election. Most Americans would look at satellite photos of demolished nuke-bomb factories and think: good thing.

We’ll see. When it comes to Iran, I fear that either the bombs get bombed or the bombs get used. The latter is what I always thought would be the end result of the forces set in motion by 9/11, and I still hope I am wrong. I’ve been wrong enough to be hopeful.


Plus witches, Barbie, pizza, morphine and vodka.
Posted by: Steve || 07/09/2004 1:03:30 PM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Sharon's recent meeting with El-Baradei was a mystery to me. Why would he be talking to the UN about officially declaring Israels' nukes as part of a process to a nuclear free middle east? That route could only work if Israel could trust 1) the UN, and 2) the other arab states. Is there some strategy I'm not seeing?
Posted by: sludj || 07/09/2004 13:31 Comments || Top||

#2  Thats a policy of long standing. Catch is, it requires Iran and Saudi to sit down with Israel and negotiate. Very unlikely to occur.

As for trusting, im sure Israel could come up with "national means of verification"
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 13:54 Comments || Top||

#3  If Israel bombed Iran nuclear facilities,Kerry would get in front of cameras in a nanosecond to endorse Israeli attack.Why?1)Show he is tough and strong on defense-esp.if someone else does it.2)Jewish voters are core Demo constituency,that has started to waver w/Bush's strong support for Israel's right to defend itself.3)He can always criticize later,saying attack was premature or something-you know,"I approved of the attack,before I didn't".
Posted by: Stephen || 07/09/2004 15:41 Comments || Top||

#4  don't see that happening Stephen. He'd wait until polls told him which way the wind was blowing, then go mealymouth on it
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 15:55 Comments || Top||

#5  ...then say the opposite the next day.
Posted by: Raj || 07/09/2004 16:34 Comments || Top||


White House warns of election attack
The Bush administration, reflecting heightened concerns about terrorism in the United States, issued a new warning today that Al Qaeda was working toward a "large scale" attack linked to the U.S. elections. However, Tom Ridge, secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, said the department was not raising the color-coded alert level from its "yellow," or mid-range, status. He said that "we have more protective measures in place at yellow today than we did six months or a year ago." His warning appeared to leave FBI officials baffled.
Well, it doesn't take much to do that.
An FBI counterterrorism official said the bureau had not received any substantive new intelligence about a possible Al Qaeda attack in the United States since Director Robert S. Mueller III issued a similar warning on May 26. Ridge’s comments, the FBI official said, are "what we said when we had our press conference, when we announced we were looking for several people and that we had [intelligence] indicating some kind of large scale attack was in the works." Speaking at a news conference, Ridge said: "Credible reporting now indicates that Al Qaeda is moving forward with its plans to carry out a large-scale attack in the United States in an effort to disrupt our democratic process."

In issuing the warning, Ridge is walking a fine line, seeking to report on the most recent intelligence and concerns it raises, while not issuing such frequent cautions that the public becomes inured to the threat. At the same time, he faces the risk that repeated warnings that heighten public fears could appear to be taking on a political tenor when President Bush is using his conduct of the war on terrorism as an underpinning of his reelection campaign. "We lack precise knowledge about time, place and method of attack, but along with the CIA, FBI and other agencies, we are actively working to gain that knowledge," Ridge said. He said that the government had no specific, credible evidence that terrorists were targeting the Democratic National Convention, which begins two weeks from Monday in Boston, or the Republican National Convention, which takes place during the last week in August in New York City. He said that to make a political connection to his remarks would be "a wrong interpretation." "We are basically laying out before the general public the kind of information that we’ve received," Ridge said. "These are not conjectures or mythical statements we are making. These are pieces of information that we can trace comfortably to sources that we deem to be credible."

Asked why he was delivering his briefings today — he had earlier spoken to members of the Senate — the secretary said that in the wake of the Madrid bombing, he thought it important to deliver such information "on a periodic basis," and that he would deliver similar reports in coming weeks and months.
The FBI counterterrorism official said that although the FBI remained concerned about a wealth of intelligence about Al Qaeda activity, it had received no specific information about a time, place or method of attack, or even that one or both of the political conventions was a target. "We don’t have anything like that," the FBI official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity. "The election is a focal point, but to say [intelligence indicates] any time frame before the election, we just don’t have that. We haven’t heard anything as to who they would desire to target to influence the political process," he said.
Oh, let me make a wild guess, the PRESIDENT perhaps.
The FBI official said that while the bureau is concerned about attacks on mass transit, particularly subway cars, those fears are based on Al Qaeda’s stated interest in attacking such targets, including comments by Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed to his interrogators. Also, the official said, Osama bin Laden and other senior Al Qaeda operatives are known to be exhorting their followers to launch such attacks, and to try to interfere with elections, given the impact of the Madrid attack. Soon after that attack, the new government in Spain said it would pull its troops out of the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq. "That’s an analysis of what could happen, looking at the intelligence coming in, what happened in Madrid in March," the official said. "But there’s no specificity to the threat."

The FBI official said authorities were still seeking to question six men and one woman identified by Mueller and Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft in their news conference. One of them is Adam Yahiye Gadahn, a Californian who is being sought in connection with possible terrorist threats against the United States. Although the FBI has no information indicating that Gadahn is connected to any specific terrorist activities, FBI officials said he has worked as a translator for Al Qaeda and that he could be helping the organization infiltrate operatives into the United States. "He’s an individual who helped them in translating materials and other logistics, who knows his way around the United States and its culture, and is sympathetic to their cause," the FBI official said today. "He can help them with languages, and he certainly has the ability to lend them technical and logistical support that they wouldn’t otherwise have." The FBI official said Gadahn is not believed to be in the United States, "but you don’t want to assume that, because he could blend in and be almost anywhere. So we don’t know. We are looking for him."
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/09/2004 9:20:38 PM || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  That does it! I'm voting for Zapo.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 10:44 Comments || Top||

#2  Not me, Shipman. As a hard-core Marxist, Groucho is my man!

Personally, I don't see America reacting the same way as Spain to terrorist shenanigans around election time. I point to Afghanistan and Iraq as examples of American response.
Posted by: SteveS || 07/09/2004 11:15 Comments || Top||

#3  Well, you may think you're going to vote for Groucho, but I'll bet your commitment is Fragilee.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 14:04 Comments || Top||

#4  Two days ago FOX was showing video, released via AlJiz(?), of car bomb explosions. Why?

The current rumor has been of carbomb attacks of malls, shopping plazas, or any area that has a decent crowed.

It is my thought that the video has been released to show what is going to happen. The propaganda impact must be felt by more than just the victims, as the actual amount of victims is prolly no more then a Labor Day hiway statistic.

I'd say, folks, that the cadres of brigades of the religion of political cut-throats, is ready, has been for a few years.

I'm saying, stay away from areas that are regularly crowded, use the entrances to malls and such when a crowd isn't easily anticipated. Be aware of people who may be casing such a place. Dark bearded guy, perhaps with a camera, but the targets are prolly set.

It will happen like this unless it doesn't.
Posted by: Lucky || 07/09/2004 14:31 Comments || Top||


Binny and Ayman’s role in latest threat unclear
Osama bin Laden and his chief lieutenants, operating from hideouts suspected to be along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, are directing a Qaeda effort to launch an attack in the United States sometime this year, senior Bush administration officials said on Thursday. "What we know about this most recent information is that it is being directed from the seniormost levels of the Al Qaeda organization," said a senior official at a briefing for reporters. He added, "We know that this leadership continues to operate along the border area between Afghanistan and Pakistan."

Counterterrorism officials have said for weeks that they are increasingly worried by a continuing stream of intelligence suggesting that Al Qaeda wanted to carry out a significant terror attack on United States soil this year. But until the comments of the senior administration officials on Thursday, it was not clear that Mr. bin Laden and top deputies like Ayman Zawahiri were responsible for the concern. Another senior administration official said on Thursday that the intelligence reports - apparently drawn partly from interviews with captured Qaeda members and partly from other intelligence - referred to efforts "to inflict catastrophic effects" before the election. This official said that the reports did not refer specifically to Mr. bin Laden’s instructions or desires, but did make clear that instructions were coming from Qaeda leaders. "It sounds like a corporate effort," the official said.

Mr. bin Laden’s precise role remains somewhat uncertain. It does not appear that he is trying to take an active leadership role in formulating a specific plan, as he did in preparations for the September 2001 attacks, an administration official said. There is evidence, the official said, that he is able to communicate with his followers, urging them to carry out operations in the name of the terror network. In the past, Mr. bin Laden has used a variety of methods to carry his messages, and he is acutely aware of American efforts to monitor his conversations. He has used couriers to carry private instructions and issued public statements that contained threats and exhortations. In addition, his followers have used cellphones and computer messages to disseminate his directives. That suggested possible targets would include New York and the Los Angeles airport, which was a target in a millennium-related plot that was foiled by the authorities in December 1999.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/09/2004 12:48:57 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  The CIA cannot offer a single shred of evidence that OBL is alive.
Posted by: Tancred || 07/09/2004 10:12 Comments || Top||


International-UN-NGOs
Court: Israeli fence violates int'l law, must be dismantled
Wotta surprise.
The International Court of Justice will rule on Friday that the separation fence contravenes international law, that it must be dismantled, and that compensation must be paid to the Palestinian owners of property confiscated for its construction, according to documents obtained by Haaretz. The decision will be officially made public at 4 P.M. Friday under the heading, "Legal implications of the construction of the barrier in Palestinian occupied territory." The court has ruled that on the basis of the material available to it, "[it] is not convinced that the specific course Israel has chosen for the wall was necessary to attain its security objectives." Fourteen votes favored the decision and the sole opponent was the American Judge, Thomas Buerghenthal. It then says: "The wall, along the route chosen, and its associated regime, gravely infringe a number of rights of Palestinians residing in the territory occupied by Israel, and the infringements resulting from that route cannot be justified by military exigencies or by the requirements of national security or public order."
Other than the fact that it works by stopping the splodydopes.
"The construction of such a wall accordingly constitutes breaches by Israel of its various obligations under the applicable international humanitarian law and human rights instruments." In support of Judge Buergenthal's opposition, the Dutch Judge, Pieter Kooijmans, rejected the call for all countries to act against the project. The Hague court ruled that it had jurisdiction to render an opinion on the issue of the fence. The justices conducted a lengthy analysis of the legal situation and of the history of the Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Parts of the fence constructed within the Green Line were not included in the court's decision. Most of the justices believed that in building the fence, Israel violated international humanitarian law, by infringing on Palestinians' freedom of movement, freedom to seek employment, education and health. Israel violated international treaties it had signed which deal with these topics, the ruling states. "Israel is bound to comply with its obligation to respect the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and its obligations under international humanitarian law and international human rights law. Furthermore, it must ensure freedom of access to the Holy Places that came under its control," the justices wrote.
Curiously, there was no mention of any Paleo obligations not to kill people.
The International Court in the Dutch capital, The Hague, was asked to deliberate on the issue of the security fence by a United Nations General Assembly resolution of last December, and its decision will be presented to the world body. Prior to the release of the decision, Israeli sources said they were unsure of the court's ruling. However, European sources said that on the basis of information available to them, the legal opinion would be "negative and critical" of Israel. PA Chairman Yasser Arafat on Thursday said he had full confidence in the International Court. "I believe the court in the Hague is capable of stopping the construction of the fence that damages our people," he said in Ramallah.
"I am sure the Court will be as effective as ever!"
For its part, the Defense Ministry has carried out changes on the official map delineating the route of the fence according to the ruling of the High Court of Justice. The changes run along the section of the fence northwest of Jerusalem, and in parts near Qalqilya, Modi'in and southeast of Jerusalem near Gush Etzion. According to the map made public by the Ministry of Defense, there are many changes from the original route of the fence, and all are meant to alleviate the pressure on the Palestinian population in those areas. However, the new map also shows the intention to build the fence around the Ariel salient, linking the largest settlement in the West Bank, with Karnei Shomron and Immanuel, to the Green Line.

Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization have prepared their public relations and diplomatic offensives in anticipation of the decision. The PLO representative in the United Nations, Nasser al-Qidwa, and diplomats from Arab countries at the UN, plan to request an emergency session of the General Assembly where the results of the court's decision will be presented. It is expected that the Palestinians will seek operative application of the court's conclusions, in case Israel refuses to adopt the recommendations of the International Court. Israel has already prepared its response, assuming that the court will be critical of Israel. Israel will seek to block the issue from reaching the Security Council, with the assistance of the United States. Israel is also hoping that most EU countries will not support the Palestinian move as they opposed bringing the matter before the ICJ.
New Amb. Danforth will get to issue his first UNSC veto.
Posted by: Steve White || 07/09/2004 1:42:58 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Israel.....finish building your barrier wall, if that's what you want to do. Piss on the "international court of justice". It's just another wing of the worldwide "anti-israel", "pro-arab" monster.

Thomas Jefferson would say; "Let the international court of justice enforce it's ruling." Or was it Andrew Jackson? Oh well, it doesn't matter.

Why can palestinians only be "fulfilled" if they have access to Israel? Why can't they build their own functioning economy? I'll tell you why. They've wasted all these years perfecting methods of mass murder, instead of making a better life for their people.

They've taken the billions of dollars, given in good faith, by the West, including Israel, and squandered it on explosives and weapons of every type, instead of building a better future.

Murdering innocent Israeli women and children doesn't improve the lives of palestinians one tittle. Muslims are filthy, nasty people.
Posted by: Halfass Pete || 07/09/2004 2:22 Comments || Top||

#2  Question, is Israel party to the ICC? If not, they can tell them to roll it up, and shove it.
Posted by: Silentbrick || 07/09/2004 2:36 Comments || Top||

#3  Tear down the wall and do a Darfur on the Palestinians. Seems the ICJ has no problem with that.
Posted by: ed || 07/09/2004 2:39 Comments || Top||

#4  I'm with Halfass. Funny, that HWSNBN gets his definitions of "torture" and "international law" from the ICC.
Somebody clue me in---does he have a really fast web archive program, or does he simply save posts from everybody he disagrees with?

In any case, the "green line" is as much an arbitrary paleosimian crock of crap as the insistence on a return to the 1967 borders. One "do over" after another. The paleos are probably as filthy and nasty at cards as they are at booming.
Posted by: therien || 07/09/2004 2:49 Comments || Top||

#5  Halfass--- I think that would have been Jackson, in re: the Supreme Court on the Cherokee resettlement/land grab decision. Jefferson might have said something similar, but ima not sure.
Posted by: therien || 07/09/2004 2:53 Comments || Top||

#6  Question, is Israel party to the ICC
Israel never ratified its signature to the ICC.

Here's a UN website that lists all countries' and whether or not they ratified the ICC agreement:
Link
Posted by: rex || 07/09/2004 3:34 Comments || Top||

#7 
Who is behind this so-called "international court of justice"? The Vichy French and boys from Berlin, and they have the bold audacity issuing 'verdicts' regarding what Jews should do in order to protect themselves from nazi-like terrorists which desire to exterminate each and every Israeli?

Something is not kosher here.

Like shades of 1939 all over again lurking throughout the E.U.?

The enemy is not only the Islamist jihad boys.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 4:06 Comments || Top||

#8  Question, is Israel party to the ICC? If not, they can tell them to roll it up, and shove it.

This isn't the ICC, it's the ICJ. Different animal, equally offensive. Check the following statement from the court's web site, "In cases of doubt as to whether the Court has jurisdiction, it is the Court itself which decides." As was said above, let 'em try to enforce it.
Posted by: AzCat || 07/09/2004 4:58 Comments || Top||

#9  Screw it. Keep building and turn some pigs and dogs free on the "Palestinian" side.
There is and never has been a "Palestine." So this "state is a crock of cat crap.
Posted by: FlameBait93268 || 07/09/2004 5:24 Comments || Top||

#10  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 6:20 Comments || Top||

#11  The world court knows nothing about the history of Jews. I think the US should nuke the place to stop them from issuing anymore stupid decisons !
Posted by: Anonymous566390 || 07/09/2004 7:46 Comments || Top||

#12  the Tourette's Troll© shows her ugly face again...

Build the wall, electrify it, and doze a clear no-man's land. Shoot any Paleo or ICJ whelp that approaches it.
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 8:36 Comments || Top||

#13  And just what would you have Israel do,Antwit.Why don't you just come out and say your true thoughts.All here know what your not-so-well hidden thoughts are (Antwit"The only good Jew is a dead Jew".
Posted by: Raptor || 07/09/2004 8:37 Comments || Top||

#14  I think we should send a flight of B-52's to paleo land and let the rubble bounce.
Posted by: djohn66 || 07/09/2004 8:39 Comments || Top||

#15  Good morning Antisemite! So nice of you to join us.
Posted by: AllahHateMe || 07/09/2004 8:39 Comments || Top||

#16  "[it] is not convinced that the specific course Israel has chosen for the wall was necessary to attain its security objectives."

I agree with this decision. People in this forum, and even Sharon himself, keep on saying the same thing. That the specific course can change. That means that this course wasn't necessary.

Liberalhawk, I believe, has also mentioned the course of the barrier as an item used as a tool in negotiations. If the question was the security of Israel it *wouldn't* have been a matter that could be negotiated.

It then says: "The wall, along the route chosen and its associated regime, gravely infringe a number of rights of Palestinians residing in the territory occupied by Israel, and the infringements resulting from that route cannot be justified by military exigencies or by the requirements of national security or public order."

It does. The wall, ALONG THE ROUTE CHOSEN, is NOT a border, and is thus not a tool towards the protection of a border. It's a meandering line meant to annex land as arbitrarily decided. Decided not by the question of security for Israel but by the question of *settlements* and which land was more valuable to have.

This decision of the court is positive. It doesn't condemn the idea of the barrier itself, it condemns the route chosen.

Which should be condemned. Strongly.

In any case, the "green line" is as much an arbitrary paleosimian crock of crap as the insistence on a return to the 1967 borders.

But the Green line had existed and had been mutually agreed upon. Arbitrariness is not an issue when both sides agree to said arbirtrariness.

The 1967 border may not be able to be returned to. Fine. But you must have a viable border to replace them with. This wall ain't it. This wall creates a ghetto, not a country.

Oh well, it doesn't matter. Why can palestinians only be "fulfilled" if they have access to Israel?

If by Israel you include the West Bank, then that's because they live in it.

If by Israel you *don't* include the West Bank, then the wall does far more than isolate West Bank Palestinians from Israel, it isolates pockets of West Bank Palestinians from the rest of the pockets of West Bank Palestinians.

No nation would be viable like that, even if its leaders had been sane.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 8:44 Comments || Top||

#17  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 8:49 Comments || Top||

#18  Ahh anti your so easy,got a cigarret. :)
Posted by: djohn66 || 07/09/2004 8:50 Comments || Top||

#19  Sinktrap the troll.
Posted by: JerseyMike || 07/09/2004 9:02 Comments || Top||

#20  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 9:06 Comments || Top||

#21  frankly Aris, I don't give a damn about isolating the hateful tribe. Israel could build the wall along Jordan's river border and evict the seething bastards for all I care - they've lost any legitimacy and sympathy they might have had
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 9:46 Comments || Top||

#22  It then says: "The wall, along the route chosen and its associated regime, gravely infringe a number of rights of Palestinians residing in the territory occupied by Israel, and the infringements resulting from that route cannot be justified by military exigencies or by the requirements of national security or public order."

Gravely. Good choice of words. No doubt the ICJ doesn't consider the jigsaw mess of human flesh left by suicide bombings of Palestinians against Jews as literally grave infringements on the rights of Israelis to live. But graves are where Jews are doomed to end up once the fences of PA suicide bombers are opened, aren't they?

If this were simply about the impropriety of the route, it wouldn't have topped the docket of this court. No, it's about scapegoating Israel while the PA commits crimes with impunity, as usual. I won't be holding my breath for the international community to come with an EFFECTIVE, alternative idea for keeping people alive. Keeping Jews alive isn't of interest to them.
Posted by: jules 187 || 07/09/2004 10:03 Comments || Top||

#23  Frank> I'm not only considering the Palestinians' sake, but the Israeli's sake as well, when I'm calling this a non-viable border.

For peace to happen you can't have a person being able to see two walls separating his village from his nearest city, just because the neighbouring nation arbirtrarily decided that it wanted to have a protected corridor that'd pass between the lands it desired to annex (because they were valuable) and the leftovers it decided to leave them.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 10:12 Comments || Top||

#24  Aris--

No matter the route, the ICJ would not find in favor of the wall. That's the upshot of this paragraph:

Most of the justices believed that in building the fence, Israel violated international humanitarian law, by infringing on Palestinians' freedom of movement, freedom to seek employment, education and health. Israel violated international treaties it had signed which deal with these topics, the ruling states...

This is vague enough that the ICJ will always be able to rule against Israel. Movement to seek employment, education, and health covers pretty much everything.

Furthermore, it must ensure freedom of access to the Holy Places that came under its control," the justices wrote.

This was of course never an issue before 1967. And wouldn't have been, either. How can Israel "insure freedom of access" in the middle of a war?
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 10:24 Comments || Top||

#25  For peace to happen you can't have a person being able to see two walls separating his village from his nearest city, just because the neighbouring nation arbirtrarily decided that it wanted to have a protected corridor that'd pass between the lands it desired to annex (because they were valuable) and the leftovers it decided to leave them.

The problem with this arguement is that Isreal tried allowing the Paleostinians free movement. Suicide bombers just kept coming through, killing more people. Regardless of whether this wall sets back the peace process or not, Isreal changes it route, or the world condemns it, this wall is the right thing to do. The right thing to do isn't always the prefered option, and you know this Aris.
Posted by: Charles || 07/09/2004 10:46 Comments || Top||

#26  Paleostinians need to be fenced out same as zoo animals need to be fenced in.
Posted by: Anonymous5072 || 07/09/2004 10:47 Comments || Top||

#27  Fourteen votes favored the decision and the sole opponent was the American Judge, Thomas Buerghenthal.

If the US does not support the court and is not a member, why is there an American judge on this abomination?
Posted by: RWV || 07/09/2004 10:50 Comments || Top||

#28  Aris-- the "green line" is essentially the 1949 Armistice line. It was an agreement between the Israelis and their Arab enemies (not the paleos) that delineated the West Bank and Gaza. It did not limit of define the borders of the Israeli State.
Neither did it define the limits or borders of a "Paleo" state.
But the Green line had existed and had been mutually agreed upon. Arbitrariness is not an issue when both sides agree to said arbirtrariness. When both sides agree, and then one side disagrees and tries to kill the other, then loses, then asserts the original agreement is still binding, THEN it's arbitrary.
"Paleo" ghetto or Jews being pushed into the sea... hmmm, tough call, eh?
Posted by: therien || 07/09/2004 11:15 Comments || Top||

#29  The problem with this arguement is that Isreal tried allowing the Paleostinians free movement. Suicide bombers just kept coming through, killing more people.

If the wall had been put in a location where a border would exist, then you WOULDN'T need to let people through it. It'd be a border, in the sense of people in that side staying in that side, and people in this side staying in this side. A very borderlike border. :-)

A wall is the right thing to do, simply not in the location built.

RWV> USA does support the International Court of Justice, it's the International Criminal Court that it doesn't support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice

"All states maintain the right to exempt themselves from rulings of the ICJ, and particular states that have availed themselves of this right include Argentina, China, France, Israel, Russia, and the United States.

The U.S. accepted the Court's compulsory jurisdiction in 1946, subject to the aformentioned right to refuse all suits, and first exercised this right following the Court's judgment in 1984 that called on it to "cease and to refrain" from the unlawful use of force against Nicaragua."

Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 11:17 Comments || Top||

#30  Aris--

If the wall had been put in a location where a border would exist, then you WOULDN'T need to let people through it. It'd be a border, in the sense of people in that side staying in that side, and people in this side staying in this side. A very borderlike border. :-) A wall is the right thing to do, simply not in the location built.

I pretty much agree with you. It's just that I really doubt a "court" like the ICJ would. What do you think?
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 11:20 Comments || Top||

#31  When both sides agree, and then one side disagrees and tries to kill the other, then loses, then asserts the original agreement is still binding, THEN it's arbitrary.

I think the word you are looking for is "hypocritical", not arbitrary. Yeah, the Palestinians have scums for leaders. We know that.

That doesn't make it any less of a fact that even non-scum Palestinian would be offended by the meandering wall in the route it's being built, not just now but a hundred years from now. A wall who's purpose is not protect to Israel but to protect settlements that were created as a way to *annex* the entirety of West Bank.

Hell, even I'd be offended by people seeing that insane line and pretending it's a "border".

"Paleo" ghetto or Jews being pushed into the sea... hmmm, tough call, eh?

No, that's not the real dilemma, the real dilemma is Paleo ghetto or abandonment of Israeli settlements deep in the West Bank.

Which is not a tough call at all IMO -- the Israeli settlements there should simply be abandoned. They were only created in an effort to conquer the West Bank. If the attempted conquest has now been aborted, and people want the creation of two states existing side by side, then these settlements should likewise be aborted.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 11:30 Comments || Top||

#32  BMN> I can't really know how the ICJ would have reacted. I've not studied either its history nor its underlying politics in its decision-making. Perhaps you are right and they'd have been unfair regardless. But I don't know that for sure.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 11:32 Comments || Top||

#33  If the wall had been put in a location where a border would exist, then you WOULDN'T need to let people through it. It'd be a border, in the sense of people in that side staying in that side, and people in this side staying in this side.

A big IF, dependent upon agreed borders, which depend upon negotiations, which depend upon securing Israel from suicide bombings.

Back in your court, Palestine.
Posted by: jules 187 || 07/09/2004 11:32 Comments || Top||

#34  Aris, you can argue the nuances of international law (and God help us all, you will!), but the fence is staying.
All of this blathering was done before the Intifada and the WOT and the Israelis aren't going to argue with success which is no more splodeydopes!
And they don't have to listen to "reason" about borders because they've won every fight they've ever had with the Mooooslims, including wars where they gained the territory of the West Bank and Gaza.
They found out the hard way that Paleos don't respect "land for peace" deals, but they do respect this fence, which has effectively isolated them for the killers and losers they are.
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 11:32 Comments || Top||

#35  A wall is the right thing to do, simply not in the location built. 




Why? Because you fucking say so? You strike me as a pompous ass who has no comprehension of Israeli security problems. Your kind will be blabbering and blubbering once the Paleostinians start firing rockets and such over the security fence. Meanwhile the Paleos chose terror. The Israeli response is to fence them out in an
effective way which means to *try* to have Israeli Jews out of accurate rocket
range. You want to play a juvenile game of pretend that Israel should have the fence on the Greenline and leave hundreds of thousand
of Jews outside the fence. This will not happen and is the price the Paleos are paying for their terrorism. Which poll after poll show the
Paleostinian populace supporting. They love their murderous Jihadis and now must
pay the price. Screw 'em and their dysfunctional, murderous culture that springs
from the murderous Koran of the murderous pedophile prophet Muhammad.


Posted by: Anonymous5072 || 07/09/2004 11:34 Comments || Top||

#36  Aris--

If the attempted conquest has now been aborted, and people want the creation of two states existing side by side, then these settlements should likewise be aborted.

My argument has always been that the Palestinians should have statehood forced upon them whether they (or, particularly, their leaders) want it or not. I assume impending statehood, whether formally declared or not, is what's behind the recent revolt (perhaps too strong a word?--maybe "split" is better?) in the PA ranks.

If abandoning settlements is what is necessary to do that, I am 100% in favor of it.
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 11:35 Comments || Top||

#37  BTW, I don't mean to say that Israel ought to abandon 100% of the West Bank. I mean that it ought to have militarily defensible borders. That could well mean some settlements must go.
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 11:37 Comments || Top||

#38  jules> A big IF, dependent upon agreed borders, which depend upon negotiations, which depend upon securing Israel from suicide bombings.

The whole idea of the wall should have been the enforcement of a border. Such an enforcement would *not* have required negotiations. It would be the creation of a defacto border which would however have been sanely drawn so as to be accepted by an *eventual* likewise sane Palestinian government, and which in the meantime would be defensible enough.

This wall as drawn satisfies neither criterion -- it's neither a border that a sane Palestinian could accept as legitimate, and I hear that its enormous length (due to it being meandering as I believe I have mentioned) itself makes it mostly indefensible.

but the fence is staying

If the fence stays as drawn, then so will the war.

Perhaps Israel does have the moral right to recarve (and fortify) a border significantly different than the Green Line, but it doesn't have the moral right to enclave a population and pretend it's creating a border instead, when in reality it's creating an apartheid, enclosing people that'd have no right to vote on the entity governing their lives.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 11:42 Comments || Top||

#39  ARIS

No, that's not the real dilemma, the real dilemma is Paleo ghetto or abandonment of Israeli settlements deep in the West Bank. Which is not a tough call at all IMO -- the Israeli settlements there should simply be abandoned.

And how about Jewish populations that are very close to Israel proper? I hope you know that 90% of West Bank Jews live very close to the Greenline. No way should these people be on the wrong side of the security fence.

the real dilemma is Paleo ghetto

The Paleostinians make their own ghettos just fine. Same as the Muslim Arab settlement blocs in France, Holland, Belgium and such. Where the police dare not go. No Jewish help needed. In fact Jews were routed from Arab nations in the 1950s





Posted by: Anonymous5072 || 07/09/2004 11:42 Comments || Top||

#40  For people who like to read stuff and learn things:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/boundtoc.html

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_geomaps.php

Posted by: therien || 07/09/2004 11:48 Comments || Top||

#41  Anon5072> And how about Jewish populations that are very close to Israel proper? I hope you know that 90% of West Bank Jews live very close to the Greenline. No way should these people be on the wrong side of the security fence.


I have no special desire for the wall to follow the Green Line exactly -- so in the case of settlements that are indeed very close to Israel proper be my guest and carve the new border in order to include them. No particular objections here.

The settlements that I said should be abandoned were the ones *deep* in the West Bank.

You strike me as a pompous ass who has no comprehension of Israeli security problems.

I think I also striked you as an anti-American -- so you keep on failing in your beliefs on me. :-)

Or was that a different Anonymous? Hard to care to remember your number.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 11:48 Comments || Top||

#42  ARIS

This wall as drawn satisfies neither criterion -- it's neither a border that a sane Palestinian could accept as legitimate, 

Big fucking deal. Muslims will never accept Israel because Jews now rule what was once part of Dar al Islam. Muslims feel they have the right to immigrate anywhere they want in the West, but cannot accept Jews living in Arabia. They treated "their Jews" as Dhimmis for centuries. With the birth of Israel this is finished. 45% of Israelis are Jews who were driven from Arab nations. Used be hundreds of thousands of Jews in Iraq.

and I hear that its enormous length (due to it being meandering as I believe I have mentioned) itself makes it mostly indefensible

LOL! The fence is working very well so far. Israel does not accept security advice from pompous asses.





Posted by: Anonymous5072 || 07/09/2004 11:51 Comments || Top||

#43  From Haaretz:

In building the fence, the court rules, Israel violated international humanitarian law, by infringing on Palestinians' freedom of movement, freedom to seek employment, education and health.

If Haaretz's paraphrase of the decision is accurate, then this is Tranzi-ism carried to its extreme. Your neighboring country is at war with you, opinion poll after opinion poll show that the enemy population wants to see you destroyed or ethnically cleansed, but you still have an obligation to give them freakin jobs. Every time the Israelis close the border check points we hear the same thing. If Palestinians can't get to their jobs inside Israel, then they're being discriminated against. So forgive me, my European colleagues if I get a little worked up about the direction of EU politics and political thinking. It is precisely this sort of upside down logic (I have to give a man a job and bread even though he hates me and wants to kill me) that will destroy Western Civilization, not levelling some hellhole like Fallujah or Jenin.
Posted by: 11A5S || 07/09/2004 11:52 Comments || Top||

#44  Aris and AzCat are correct about clarifying which court has ruled on the case-it is the ICJ and not the ICC. I answered #2's question about which countries ratified the ICC without going back to the article to verify that the ICJ is the court in question. I'm not sure if the ICJ is biased against Israel or not because like Aris, I do not know much about it. However, because it is part of the UN and has been around longer[55 years or so] and because the ICJ rulings against a nation can trigger UN sanctions against that nation, it strikes me that for Israel to go against the ICJ's ruling could cause itself greater harm, economically and internally.ie. having Israelis blame the Sharon government for any economic negatives Israel is forced to bear.

ICJ handles cases where one nation takes another nation to court, and the whole nation ends up bearing the burden of UN sanctions if any are incurred. Whereas, the ICC handles cases against individuals, and a negative ruling only affects the individual found "guilty."
Posted by: rex || 07/09/2004 11:52 Comments || Top||

#45  The whole idea of the wall should have been the enforcement of a border.

Decided by whom?

Perhaps Israel does have the moral right to recarve (and fortify) a border significantly different than the Green Line, but it doesn't have the moral right to enclave a population and pretend it's creating a border instead...

I doubt any of this will be resolved until we factor in MUTUAL population redistributions. It will be interesting to see whether any countries besides the US will put their money where their mouth is and fork up some cash for the relocations.
Posted by: jules 187 || 07/09/2004 11:53 Comments || Top||

#46  aris the only settlement thats inside the wall, thats not close to the Green Line is the large block at Ariel. And even Ariel is west of the main spine of Pal population in the northern West Bank - the Jenin-Nablus-Ramallah line. Its widely assumed that Ariel would remain Israeli in a final settlement - the main question being would the Pals receive hectare for hectare compensation elsewhere (the "dovish" position) or something less (the "hawkish" position) There really isnt much dispute over the course of the boundary. Its more over what Israel has to concede to get there, and the extent to which facts on the ground like the fence mean Israel will have to give less.

As for indefensible, theres plenty of evidence that the fence has been very effective over the last several months.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 11:54 Comments || Top||

#47  I have no special desire for the wall to follow the Green Line exactly -- so in the case of settlements that are indeed very close to Israel proper be my guest and carve the new border in order to include them. No particular objections here.



That's exactly what's going on with the security fence. In a de facto way of course. Silly you are complaining that Israel does not formally annex parts of the West Bank thus inflaming the Muslims. So stop yer bitching and moaning. Those remote settlements were intended as early warning trip wires for Arab invasions. Go read up on the history
Posted by: Anonymous5072 || 07/09/2004 11:55 Comments || Top||

#48  LOL! The fence is working very well so far.

The fence hasn't been built yet, idiot. Only bits of it have been built and *those* bits aren't yet insanely meandering. The insanely meandering part is yet to come.

Muslims will never accept Israel

Turkey has accepted Israel. Egypt has accepted Israel. Jordan has de facto accepted Israel (not sure about de jure status).

They treated "their Jews" as Dhimmis for centuries

And so did the Christians. For centuries. When you say "never" you reveal your own shortsightedness. Never is a *very* long time, it doesn't extend only as far as *your own* horizon -- which is probably the tip of your nose.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 11:56 Comments || Top||

#49  Egypt has accepted Israel. Jordan has de facto accepted Israel (not sure about de jure status).

Aris, you're a smart guy--come on. They "accepted" Israel because they have been bribed to do so and had the hell beaten out of them more than once. Their populations never accepted a damn thing (not that that matters so much--this is the Middle East), and the governments barely have (and use their hatred of Israel as a sop to those populations).

I want the wall built because I don't believe Israel will be accepted anytime soon.
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 12:01 Comments || Top||

#50  The fence hasn't been built yet, idiot. Only bits of it have been built and *those* bits aren't yet insanely meandering.

For something that "hasn't been built yet", it seems to be working pretty damn good so far...
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 07/09/2004 12:04 Comments || Top||

#51  Katsi, you are arguing to argue...dragging in the supposed historical treatment of Jews by Christians.
We Christians here in America treat the Jews just like everyone else and always have.
While the surrounding Arab countries pay lip service to "accepting" Israel, they have continued to fund and send jihadis to the Paleo areas with the aim of wiping Israel off the map for 60 years.
It's only the realpolitik of President Bush that has gotten them to "play nice" with Israel in the last year or so.
And Jordan and Egypt are terrified that when the fence goes up, the "Palestinians" will be forced back into Jordan and Egypt where they came from in the first place!
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 12:06 Comments || Top||

#52  Turkey has accepted Israel. Egypt has accepted Israel. Jordan has de facto accepted Israel (not sure about de jure status).

To repeat for the naive among us. The Muslim world will never accept Israel. Given explosive Muslim demographics and Jihadist mosques & madrassas what you cite are temporary "peaceful" situations. Go read up on Islamic doctrine. Once a land has been ruled by Mohammedans they will not accept a roll back to where this land is once more ruled by non-Muslims. They do not accept losing Al Andalus which is peripheral to the Muslim center of Al Arabia/Mecca/Medina.

They accept Israel even less since Israel is a lot more proximate to the Arab Muslim center of gravity.
Posted by: Anonymous5072 || 07/09/2004 12:10 Comments || Top||

#53  That acceptance was forced on Egypt and Jordan, doesn't make it less of an acceptance I think. Most borders in the history of the world have after all indeed been forced on a neighbour, who has been forced to accept them. Few borders have been made by peaceful agreements.

It's difficult to know what the stance of an elected government in those countries would be, and whether they'd be all populist against Israel or whether they'd support sanity and realism and accept it.

But I also mentioned Turkey, which is a muslim country that has clearly accepted (and allied itself with) Israel. And not been forced into it, either.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 12:11 Comments || Top||

#54  Now you're babbling about Turkey, which is frigging miles from Israel...!
Give it up, Parthenon boy!
You're defending the indefensible.
The fence is going up--what's the ICJ, the UN and the Arab League gonna do about it?
Bupkis, as they say in Yiddish!
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 12:14 Comments || Top||

#55  Aris--

I didn't mention Turkey on purpose. I would say Turkey has accepted Israel as an ally except I keep reading that the current government is reevaluating the policy.

If the mode in which Jordan and Egypt fits your definition of acceptance, OK, then I guess we agree. The wall is simply an extension of this principle in that case. That's not the same as what Turkey did, of course.
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 12:16 Comments || Top||

#56  But I also mentioned Turkey, which is a muslim country that has clearly accepted (and allied itself with) Israel. And not been forced into it, either.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris
Amusing coming from you with the Greek name. Islamism is bubbling just under the surface in Turkey. Turkey killed off how many Greeks & Armenians in the early 1900s and these were the so called modern, secular Muslims? I will agree that the Turks are marginally better than the Mohammedan Arabs. BUt they won't give the Kurds a homeland. You should be railing with others at the UN over this outrageous supression of national self determination.
Posted by: Anonymous5072 || 07/09/2004 12:16 Comments || Top||

#57  They do not accept losing Al Andalus which is peripheral to the Muslim center of Al Arabia/Mecca/Medina.

Most muslims *have* accepted the loss of Spain, I'm quite certain. That you choose to focus on the lunatic fringe is irrelevant. A lunatic fringe always exists -- the Greek lunatic fringe for example hasn't accepted the loss of Constantinople or of shores of Asia Minor either.

That's irrelevant. "They" do indeed accept losing Al Andalus, if by "they" you mean the Muslim world in general.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 12:17 Comments || Top||

#58  And so did the Christians. For centuries. When you say "never" you reveal your own shortsightedness. Never is a *very* long time, it doesn't extend only as far as *your own* horizon -- which is probably the tip of your nose.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris


Actually despite Islamic doctrine I would have hopes for peace if it weren't for Muslim Arab demographics and Muslim demographics in general. For example: Birth rates in Gaza are about the world's highest. Never will there be peace with Islam as long as Jihadist mosques and madrassas proliferate and spew madness and hatered. Mostly due to Saudi petro dollars. Jihadist ideology plus insane birthrates make Muslim irridentism a permanent feature of world politics.
Posted by: Anonymous5072 || 07/09/2004 12:23 Comments || Top||

#59  "Most muslims *have* accepted the loss of Spain, I'm quite certain."
Gosh, they must have blown up the Metro in Madrid and killed 200 Spaniards just for laughs!
"A lunatic fringe always exists -- the Greek lunatic fringe for example hasn't accepted the loss of Constantinople or of shores of Asia Minor either."
Better count His Holiness the Pope in that "lunatic fringe" because he just apologized for all of Christendom for the sacking of Constantinople.
Doesn't matter if it's a "lunatic fringe," you *IDIOT* because that's all it takes to commit mass murder as we saw with those 19 members of the "lunatic fringe" that hit America on 9/11.
The IslamoNazis war on the Dar al-Har'b is ongoing to conquer it for Islam, starting with the old "Caliphate" which would include Spain.
Doesn't matter to them if they have to go back hundreds of years, their dream of making the entire world the Dar al-Islam is as vivid to them today as it was 1200 years ago, probably more vivid as the Internet, TV and airplane travel has opened up the globe to them, whereas previously they were limited only by their ships.
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 12:25 Comments || Top||

#60  As far as ANY agreements that Israel has with the paleshitians.....they are all null and void. If only one party obeys the agreements and the other party violates them with impunity, the agreements are null and void....PERIOD!

Israel owns the land, but has been under immense pressure for years to give it away. In the Israelis desire to live in peace, they have given away lots of their land, (and their security), to the filthy paleshitians......Only to have their citizens murdered almost daily by those same paleshitians, with whom they want to live in peace.

It is the filthy arabs single mission in life, to destroy Israel. They profess it daily.

Israel has no such national policy toward the filthy paleshitian arabs.

arabs are filthy animals.
Posted by: Halfass Pete || 07/09/2004 12:27 Comments || Top||

#61  Islamism is bubbling just under the surface in Turkey.

And chauvinistic pan-Orthodoxy was hugely bubbling under the surface in Greece during most of the 90s, when our "orthodox brothers" were fighting in Bosnia. Much more so, in fact, than Islamism is bubbling in Turkey. Almost half of the Turkish parliament voted in favour of allowing American troops through its ground in the road to Iraq, but I doubt you'd find 20 out of 300 Greek MPs willing to allow American plane to launch themselves from Greece in order to bomb Serbia.

Islamism has been bubbling and will keep on bubbling for a long time -- but Turkey has been improving, not worsening, in the matter of democracy and human rights.

Turkey killed off how many Greeks & Armenians in the early 1900s and these were the so called modern, secular Muslims?

A few millions. And those were secular but hardly "modern" Muslims. Unlike what stupid people think, there exist some pretty horrible secular dictatorships, which is why Turkey's recent improvements are because of its move towards secular democracy, not its move towards "secular" full-stop, as if that would have sufficed.

But they won't give the Kurds a homeland.

They are not giving them an independent homeland but they *are* giving them the right to a vote, and the right to be elected to the Turkish parliament. Which means that Turkey treats them as citizens.

How many West-Bank Palestinians have the right to vote in the Israeli elections?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 12:27 Comments || Top||

#62  How many Paleos have the right to vote in West Bank elections for President? None since '94
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 12:30 Comments || Top||

#63 


Sort of true for the moment only. But Jews ruling a Mohammedan land (Israel) will never be accepted. This is going on right now and much closer to the Muslim heartland of Arabia. (Mecca and Medina)

http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/text.pl?source=4/b/iii/archives/280720035

What the West fails to understand, however, is that the Palestinians are not truly driven by the letter of international law, but rather by another force – Islam.

The tenets of Islam will never allow the Arabs to view Israel as an entity that may actually have a legitimate claim to the land, but is nonetheless willing to trade that claim for peaceful coexistence.

Israel must, according to Islam, be viewed as the conqueror of a land that once was, and therefore must always be, under the Dar el-Islam – the House of Islam.

This is the starting point, in the Arabs’ minds, of any negotiations with Israel, irrespective of historical right or the letter of international law.

With this in mind, it is little wonder that the Palestinians – 10 years into the peace process – continue to view Israel as an enemy and teach their children to do the same.

Nor should it be surprising that the Palestinians view violent acts of brutality against the Israeli conqueror as a perfectly legitimate means of regaining a land that - while it was never a sovereign Palestinian Arab entity - was once firmly in the grasp of Islam.





Posted by: Anonymous5072 || 07/09/2004 12:31 Comments || Top||

#64  Frank G> Keep in mind that I never once said or implied that the Palestinian Authority is one-bit democratic.

Anonymous' own implied comparison was between Turkey's treatment of the Kurds and Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 12:35 Comments || Top||

#65  Anonymous' own implied comparison was between Turkey's treatment of the Kurds and Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris


20% of Israel is Palestinian and fares a lot better under Jews than the Kurds do under Turks.The Gaza and West Bank Paleos do not live in Israel. They live in buffer zones against Arab invasions. Arabs warred against Israel once too often. Yet the world's meshuganas say there should be no penalty when they lose. That Israel should just retreat back to the Greenline. So the Mohammedans can build and equip a better terrorist base against the Jews.
Posted by: Anonymous5072 || 07/09/2004 12:43 Comments || Top||

#66  The Gaza and West Bank Paleos do not live in Israel. They live in buffer zones against Arab invasions.

What's the difference between living in Israel and living in "buffer zones", besides the fact that the people in the "buffer zones" don't have the rights they'd have if they were living in Israel?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 12:56 Comments || Top||

#67  A fair amount, actually. It means that Israel acknowledges those in the buffer zones do not and won't have any allegiance to Israel as a nation, unlike the (putative) allegiance of Arabs who are Israeli citizens.

The third option - live in Israel w/o citizenship, has been proven to be too dangerous for Israel to allow. I know several Israelis who regret that.
Posted by: rkb || 07/09/2004 13:28 Comments || Top||

#68  Aris: Just because a wall is "meandering" doesn't mean it's militarily useless. The pockets could be used to create fire sacks in case of an attack and the salients could be used to launch raids or attacks.

Also, the Islmists may be a "lunatic fringe" but never underestimate the effectiveness of a lunatic fringe in a socially fragmented population transitioning to modernism. Certainly you've heard of the Bolsheviks, Nazis, Facists, and the Japanese military clique?
Posted by: 11A5S || 07/09/2004 13:46 Comments || Top||

#69  The fence hasn't been built yet, idiot. Only bits of it have been built and *those* bits aren't yet insanely meandering. The insanely meandering part is yet to come.

Aris, they've been building the important parts first, and even it small length has allowed IDF security forces to concentrate on the areas where the wall ain't.
There has been an huge drop in successful attacks... do you figure it's the the wall or the targeted killings?

Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 14:11 Comments || Top||

#70  Probably the IC of J's decision is fairly consistent with international law given the assumptions the court made (the court I think ruled the territories were 'occupied land' which I believe to be the wrong classification since the territories were captured from Jordan which itself occupied them without international sanction).

The problem here is that international law is utterly useless as a means of combatting islamic terrorism.

Just like the nearly universal condemnation of bombing of the Osirak (it was called the O'Chiraq by some at the time because of the French $ involved) reactor, the IC of J says more about the condemners than the condemned.
Posted by: mhw || 07/09/2004 15:31 Comments || Top||

#71  An observation;

Aris repeatedly holds up Turkey as his "shining star" example of what's right in his world. He also has a huge beef with Greece's pseudo-religious "Orthodox" politics. Always the same story. Is Aris a Turk raised in Greece?

Other than that, he can be interesting at times.
Posted by: ex-lib || 07/09/2004 15:55 Comments || Top||

#72  regarding Turkey,

I wonder how well their anti corruption campaign has been going.
Posted by: mhw || 07/09/2004 16:24 Comments || Top||

#73  Aris gets a lot of Rantburg readers blood up, that is for sure. I find his posts interesting as they reflect the Euro opinion of what is going on. I don't see the point of bomb throwing at a guy who does listen to reason/is not antiwar.
Posted by: remote man || 07/09/2004 16:27 Comments || Top||

#74  I agree, ex-lib!
Every Greek I've ever met hates the Turks with a purple passion but not "*our*" Aris...!
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 16:42 Comments || Top||

#75  ex-lib> I was just recently accused of having a bias (an understandable one according to rkb :-) AGAINST Turkey. Ofcourse in that thread I had to remind people that I had been recently accused of being too *pro*-Turkey.

Now the wheel turns again and I am accused again of being too nice about Turkey, so I have to remind y'all that I was recently accused of being biased against it. :-)

And just so I answer your question -- as I once had to tell to Jen when *she* was questioning my ethnicity because I wasn't fitting in her mental image of the stereotypical Greek, yes I'm ethnically Greek, born of Greek parents in a Greek city, and still living on Greek soil. I have travelled (but never resided) throughout the rest of Europe, but have never been in Turkey, nor even known personally any Turks.

Shipman> I must confess I can't know the specifics -- since I don't know where exactly the attacks happened (walled, non-walled areas, West Bank, Israel proper, etc, etc) I can't even start estimating say how much the bits that have been built so far have been helping. But yeah, my own guess had been that the targetted killings of Hamas leaders had had more to do with the reduction in bombings.

So that's a point to you, I guess.

And sorry for the delay to respond, but I decided to go watch a movie instead of spending all my time in the forum. :-)
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 16:51 Comments || Top||

#76  Jen> Every Greek you've met is a nationalist then.

How many *liberal* Greeks have you known? And by liberal I don't mean left-wing, I mean liberal as opposed to authoritarian. People that preferred Manos and Andrianopoulos to Papathemelis, Karatzaferis, or Papariga?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 16:58 Comments || Top||

#77  Aris-What is the etymology of your name, may I ask? Did you know that the breakdown of your name Aris Kats-Aris leaves the initials AKA, meaning also known as in English?
Posted by: jules 187 || 07/09/2004 17:05 Comments || Top||

#78  *Katsi*, this is the internet--You could be a pimply, obnoxious 12-year-old named Andy Panda with a permissive mother that lives in Pacatello, Idaho.
As Antiwar often says when she's not spewing "suck dog dick,"
WHATEVER.
You're still wrong about the Israeli fence...and lots of other things.
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 17:11 Comments || Top||

#79  "Aris" spelled Alpha Rho Eta Sigma, which english speakers most commonly transcribe as "Ares", same as the god of war. I prefer to transcribe it Aris, because "Eta" (in modern Greek atleast) is pronounced as a short-i.

In my case however it's short for "Aristotelis", my maternal grandfather's name, which is the Greek version of that name which in English is usually called "Aristotle".

It's coincidence that my last name also ends in "-aris". But in Greek it doesn't really rhyme because my first name is accented in the first syllable, while "Katsaris" is accented in the last.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 17:11 Comments || Top||

#80  Of all the Greeks I've met, 50% were named Aristotle and the other 50% were named Spiro or Plato.
But they all hated Turkey.
Ergo, in AKA's world, they are all evil, but chauvinistic nationalists!
Read Plato's Republic again, why don't you?!?
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 17:15 Comments || Top||

#81  Jen> I don't believe there are many 12-year old in Pacatello, Idaho that have email addresses in Greek ISPs and Greek universities, and speak perfect Greek.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 17:20 Comments || Top||

#82  all the Greeks I've met, 50% were named Aristotle and the other 50% were named Spiro or Plato

I very much doubt it. Spiro is common enough, but I've never known a single person called "Plato".

I think you lie.

they are all evil, but chauvinistic nationalists

Nationalism is more often just like racism: a question of blind stupidity and ignorance rather than intentional evil.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 17:26 Comments || Top||

#83  Aris,
I think your basic mistake is that you think that we Israelis have the luxury of treating the palestinians with logic justice and according to "international Law". You are wrong my friend, those times are over.
Because of the atrocities they have perpetrated we now have no choice but to inflict unavoidable calamities on them, including on the "silent majority" who are not included in the "lunatic fringe". Because this silent majority has not utterly condemned, jailed and stopped the abominable fringe within them, they have now lost in my eyes any right they had to be treated justly.
Damn, our previous attempts to peacefully settle things with them had nealy cost me my personal precious (at least to me) life, as one of these """heros""" exploded himself near my house !
In my mind these people do not deserve a fair treatment untill they rise up on their own initiative, grab some pitchforks and drive Arafat and his thugs out of their land.
Until they aquire some cochones(balls) to do just that, the wall stays !!!!

Please tell me Aris, would you be willing to die personally in order to treat some palestinians fairly ?????? I am not ready yet.
Posted by: Socrates of Jerusalem || 07/09/2004 17:59 Comments || Top||

#84  I think it's spelled cojones.

As a basic note, I'm not interested in replying to anonymous people with shifting names. Is "Socrates of Jerusalem" your one-and-only-nick or are you just using it to mock and you'll abandon it to pick up another afterwards?

And since too much fuss has been made by rampant idiots who've doubted my identity, I'm free to discount every tidbit of personal experience you share here, until you provide me proof of being who you are, I guess.

But tell me -- what guarantees would the Arabs have that grabbing those pitchforks and getting rid of Arafat would mean not only that the wall would go down, but they'd be allowed an actual state of their own with actual borders? Personally, would you be willing to dismantle the Ariel settlement (and all the rest of them) for *anything* the Palestinians would do?

I'm not talking about the "luxury of treating the palestinians with justice and according to international Law". I'm saying that one day you're gonna have to decide if all the talk about two-states is something you mean or not. The settlements go against that. They were built for the exact opposite reason.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 18:18 Comments || Top||

#85  President Bush told the Paleos that they weren't getting a state until they abandoned their pursuit of terror.
(And they never will, so NO, THEY'RE NEVER GETTING A STATE.)
And the Israelis have already dismantled over 80 settlements with 21 left to go...so that the Paleo areas can be completely isolated from Israel with the help of the fence.
The success of the fence speaks for itself..and I might take my tired middle-aged butt over there to defend it for the Israelis, too, if the PA gets the UN and the EU to try and take it down!
AM YISRAEL CHAI!
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 18:36 Comments || Top||

#86  Thanks, Aris.
Posted by: RWV || 07/09/2004 18:58 Comments || Top||

#87  Aris,
Good questions which I will answer in the order they were asked.

1) I am for real, I am Israely, and indeed I use a nickname and not my real name (I am ccationally
known here as the "Dodo" or sometimes when I am in the right mood as the "Elder of Zion") I do not see any problem in using nicks as long as I am honest in what I say and I do not mean to troll or mock people) So now you know who I am and I even promise not to use any other nick so you know I am for real. BTW what would you like as proof of my identity, a copy of my drivers licence ?? Does it really matter ?? Why should I lie to you, a total stranger?

2) Sorry for the misspelling of the spanish term
though I think my point was clear enough.

3)I will tell you exactly what guarantees that if the palestinians truely oppose the beastes among them they will get a fair treatment. I personally (as an Israely voter)guarantee that. I voted for Yizhak Rabin and the labour party in the hope of seeing the Oslo agreement go through. After that, and before the second intifadah started, I voted for Ehud Barak and the Labour party with the hope of reaching some sort of reasonable agreement and a peacefull arrangement of two countries for two people. At that time I meant and believed that every word of those agreements should be implemented. After Arafat decided to use violence again I have reevaluated the situation and now I dont believe a single word uttered by the Palestinian leadership. Consequently I voted for Sharon and I intend to continue doing so in the future.
In my book, the burden of proof now lies in their domain. I am not willing to make a single concession on blind faith any more. I now demand that they show clearly and for an extended period of time that they have abandoned violence as a means to settle the dispute.
Since I know that I was responsible (together with more than 50% of Israely voters) for electing a government that wanted a two-state solution, I know that we can togeter repeat this provided we are convinced that they have truely changed their ways.
Neverthless, looking at the palestinians I am very pessimistic about anything good coming from their direction in the forseeable future.
I deeply suspect that the settlements are not the real issue here. (remember we have already dismantled all the settlements in Sinai and returned all the land to the Egyptians). The real problem is that they are full of hatred and they hope they can swindle us again and again until they manage to destroy us.

4) You still have not answered my question would you Aris Katzaris be willing to sacrifice your life in order to make another (perhaps futile?) gesture for the palestinians ?? Until you answer that I assume it is a little unfair on your side to ask me to do this thing again.
So please consider your response seriously before you answer as I have done with my voting in the past, and as I was willing to pay a price as a direct consequence of my vote, a price that I am now refusing to pay again barring irrefutable proof (in deeds and not words)of good intentions on the palestinian's side.
Posted by: Socrates of Jerusalem || 07/09/2004 19:07 Comments || Top||

#88  Socrates raises a difficult issue we all deal with to one degree or another: how can a liberal society (in the sense of openness, representative government and rule of law) fend off terrorism effectively without losing its soul in the process?

It's an uneven struggle since the terrorists have no such ideals to constrain their actions.

Aris' memory is good (at least regarding my comments on Turkey LOL) so I'm sure he also remembers my comments about experiences doing business in the Middle East in the 80s - specifically in 1987, when Palestinian terror networks bombed airport ticketing counters several times, hijacked planes and killed several Americans in cold blood, at random. He probably also remembers my saying that there were many things about Israel and its choices I didn't much care for, but that I deeply understand the reasons for those choices.

Still do.
Posted by: rkb || 07/09/2004 19:39 Comments || Top||

#89  One is reminded when the Nazis and Heydrich headed INTERPOL...bad guys CAN take over int'l organizations...just say no to entangling alliances...
Posted by: borgboy || 07/09/2004 19:45 Comments || Top||

#90  Aris,
you may have gone to sleep by now but I at least ecpect you to honestly answer #4 on my list ! would you or wouldn't you die for a pali ?????????

Aris ? Aris ? ARISSSSSSSSSS ??????
Posted by: Socrates of Jerusalem || 07/09/2004 19:51 Comments || Top||

#91  Not asleep yet. I tend to be a nightowl.

Socrates> The problem isn't nicknames themselves, the problem is shifting identities. I have maintained a constant identity (which is easy since it's my real one) and never pretended to be someone else to create support for my views, nor have I ever anonymously mocked anyone, so I expect (but have not always received) the same courtesy from others. Apologies for singling you out but the use of the name "Socrates" soon after a discussion of my own name ("Aristotle") made me believe that this was a case of a shifting identity yet again, meant to mock anonymously from a previous regular participant.

On your point 1, no it doesn't really matter -- this was me being annoyed at Jen again. Point 3, I agree that the Palestinians have the biggest share of the blame by far -- still the settlements are an issue that is going to have to be resolved before a true peace comes along, even if the Palestinians became *saints*.

And now for your insistent Point 4 --- that's a quite dishonest trick-question on your part. I did *not* ask you to do anything that I personally saw as meaning the sacrifice of even a single Israeli life.

So it's both manipulative and demeaning to say in retort to my arguments "Would you be willing to sacrifice your life in order to make another gesture for the palestinians. Until you answer that I assume it is a little unfair on your side to ask me to do this thing again."

I never asked that of you. Until I've actually made such a demand, it is more than a little affair to pretend that I did. This kind of question that assumes stuff not in evidence is only answered by the sound of crickets chirping.

Have you stopped beating your wife?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 07/09/2004 20:15 Comments || Top||

#92  yes I have
Posted by: OJ Simpson || 07/09/2004 20:52 Comments || Top||

#93  The Israelis would have never constructed a national security protective barrier if the Arabs controlled those wishing to kill themselves and as many Jews as possible in the process!

I say until the Arabs can stop their own terrorist gangs from butchering Israelis, build it higher, deeper and electrify it!
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 21:52 Comments || Top||

#94  Israel is currently experiencing a momentary reprieve in what is essentially a war of mutual annihilation. Up until now the Arabs have not had the means to destroy Israel. But that situation will not last forever. Perhaps the final showdown will come as early as the time when Iran develops a few nukes. From the perspective of people living under that threat, the ruling of the court must seem, well, shall we say, of a lower priority of concern.
Posted by: virginian || 07/09/2004 22:10 Comments || Top||

#95  Virginian,

No, its a war of attempted annihilation on the part of the Arabs, and a refusal to be annihilated on the part of Israel. Nothing mutual about it.
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/09/2004 23:07 Comments || Top||

#96  FUCK YOU YOU ARE ALL ZIONAZIS HITLER WOULD BE PROUD OF YOU YOU ADVOCATE TREATING THE PALESTINIANS IN THE SAME WAY HITLER TREATED THE JEWS YOU ARE GENOCIDAL BY PROXY.
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 6:20 Comments || Top||

#97  Frank you have never seen my face so you make no sense my response to it is cue Homer Simpson style laughte.

Raptor Withdrawing from the Occupied Territories would be a start. Not all Jews are mired in the evil of Zionism. Many who are not Jewish are.

Djohn you sound like your braindead hero Dumbya

Allahhateme Oh if you only had a brain. BUT YOU CANNOT SEE THE WIZARD THE WONDERFUL WIZARD OF OZ
How many replies will I get today? BWAAHAHA
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 8:49 Comments || Top||

#98  You think that will stop me?
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 9:06 Comments || Top||

#99  For people who like to read and find things out:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_geomaps.php

http://www.google.com/custom?q=green+line&cof=S%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%3BGL%3A0%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBIMG%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%2Fjsource%2Fimages%2Faiceback2.jpg%3BT%3A%23000000%3BAWFID%3Ae78760325e96262f%3B&domains=www.us-israel.org&sitesearch=www.us-israel.org
Posted by: therien || 07/09/2004 11:45 Comments || Top||

#100  For people who like to read and find things out:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_geomaps.php

http://www.google.com/custom?q=green+line&cof=S%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%3BGL%3A0%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBIMG%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%2Fjsource%2Fimages%2Faiceback2.jpg%3BT%3A%23000000%3BAWFID%3Ae78760325e96262f%3B&domains=www.us-israel.org&sitesearch=www.us-israel.org
Posted by: therien || 07/09/2004 11:45 Comments || Top||

#101  For people who like to read stuff and learn things:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/boundtoc.html

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_geomaps.php

http://www.google.com/custom?q=green+line&cof=S%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%3BGL%3A0%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBIMG%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%2Fjsource%2Fimages%2Faiceback2.jpg%3BT%3A%23000000%3BAWFID%3Ae78760325e96262f%3B&domains=www.us-israel.org&sitesearch=www.us-israel.org
Posted by: therien || 07/09/2004 11:47 Comments || Top||

#102  For people who like to read stuff and learn things:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/boundtoc.html

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_geomaps.php

http://www.google.com/custom?q=green+line&cof=S%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%3BGL%3A0%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBIMG%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%2Fjsource%2Fimages%2Faiceback2.jpg%3BT%3A%23000000%3BAWFID%3Ae78760325e96262f%3B&domains=www.us-israel.org&sitesearch=www.us-israel.org
Posted by: therien || 07/09/2004 11:47 Comments || Top||


Terror Networks
Islamic concept of Al-Taqiyah to infiltrate and destroy kafir countries
Author: Dr. Walid
Publication: Bharatiya Pragna
Date: June 2000

This article by Dr. Walid, a top scholar at the Islamic University, exposes our so-called secular Indian Muslims. By the doctrine of Al-Taqiyah, Muslims dominate crime syndicates, increase population by massive Bangladeshi infiltration and make temporary alliances with Dalits, Christians, etc. In the early years of the Islamic conquest of the Arabian peninsula and in the Fatah (Arab-Islamic invasion and conquest of the upper Middle East and the outside world), a Muslim concept was devised to achieve success against the enemy (non Muslims), Al-Taqiyah. Al-Taqiyah, from the verb Ittaqu, means linguistically dodge the threat. Politically it means simulate whatever status you need in order to win the war against the enemy ... According to Al-Taqiyah, Muslims were granted the Shar’iyee right (legitimacy) to infiltrate the Dar el-Harb (war zone), infiltrate the enemy’s cities and forums and plant the seeds of discord and sedition. These agents were acting on behalf of the Muslim authority at war, and therefore were not considered as lying against or denouncing the tenants of Islam.
Rest at link.
Posted by: Anonymous5089 || 07/09/2004 8:51:47 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  an article from 2000

give it to the 911 Commission
Posted by: mhw || 07/09/2004 9:53 Comments || Top||


Arafat’s fighters condemn corruption
JERUSALEM -- The armed wing of Yasser Arafat’s Fatah political movement has called for a comprehensive campaign against corruption in the Palestinian Authority, recommending that Arafat relinquish some of his powers and that militant groups -- including Islamic organizations -- be granted a formal governing voice, according to a report obtained by the Washington Post. The proposal presented to senior Palestinian officials by the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades is the first formal attempt by an armed resistance group to seek a political role in the Palestinian Authority since the current uprising against Israel began nearly four years ago.

The document calls for the expulsion and prosecution of government officials involved in corruption, a wholesale purge of relatives and cronies of senior officials from government payrolls and a halt to the practice of government officials monopolizing sectors of the Palestinian economy to line ’’their private pockets."

The paper lashes out at ’’wives and sons and daughters of officials who are registered as employees and receive high salaries from the Palestinian Authority and are either at home or abroad." It attacks bureaucrats who ’’hold official titles and government jobs . . . when in fact they have no role other than the salary and position." It demands ’’eradication of the corruption in most of the PLO embassies and representatives" overseas.

Some Palestinian officials described the appeal as a major shift in the strategy of militant fighters and one of the most blistering internal criticisms yet of corruption in the Palestinian government. ’’The impact of this initiative is that for the first time, something is coming from the ground up. It has credibility," said Ahmad Ghunaim, a member of Fatah’s most influential governing councils and a representative of the movement’s wing of young reformers.

Zakaria Zbeida, who heads the al-Aqsa group in the northern West Bank city of Jenin, said al-Aqsa leaders in the West Bank and Gaza Strip crafted the proposal partially in response to Israel’s announced plan to withdraw soldiers and Jewish settlers from Gaza. ’’We want to take part in this stage and not have the political process bypass us," Zbeida said at a hideout in the Jenin refugee camp. ’’We come with this initiative to prove we are not just a group of fighters throwing bullets here and there. . . . We are ready to sit and talk."

The al-Aqsa document urges the separation of powers between the Palestinian Authority and the umbrella Palestine Liberation Organization, saying ’’it is inconceivable" that both organizations be headed by the same person. Arafat is chairman of the PLO executive committee and president of the Palestinian Authority.

’’There’s no doubt what it’s calling for is significant," said Khalil Shikaki, a Palestinian pollster and political analyst. ’’This is a way of saying to Arafat that ’It’s time for you to step down as head of the Palestinian Authority.’ . . . It’s a clear indictment of the whole old guard." Some Palestinian officials said the entrenched Palestinian leadership was unlikely to accept al-Aqsa’s demands, which are far more detailed and wider in scope than reforms of the Palestinian Authority currently being sought by the United States, Israel, and other outside governments and institutions.

Spokesmen for Arafat and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel dismissed the document. Arafat’s spokesman, Nabil Abu Rudeineh, said it did not sound ’’serious." Raanan Gissin, a spokesman for Sharon, said the proposal represented a power struggle between Arafat loyalists and younger Palestinian leaders. Al-Aqsa, Gissin added, ’’will replace one regime of intimidation with another. . . . Those who are with them will benefit, and those who are against them will be shot in the street."
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 1:17:37 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Let's see...if they are against corruption...they'll shoot Arafat? I mean, he IS corrupt.
Posted by: Silentbrick || 07/09/2004 3:37 Comments || Top||

#2  That would be the logical solution to old camel face.( sorry to any real camels out there:)
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 3:43 Comments || Top||

#3  The only thing they're probably pissed about is that he doesn't spread it around.
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/09/2004 8:19 Comments || Top||

#4  Arafat’s fighters condemn corruption

Well of course they're going to condemn it. If there was less corruption in the PA, then there'd be more money available to buy shit with which to kill even more Jews.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 07/09/2004 12:11 Comments || Top||

#5  This is like the hyenas vs. the lions - fighting over the rapidly shrinking waterhole in June... dried up and gone by August... Melike.

Anyone else here see some dramatic benefits to the EU apologists' financial woes and the resulting drastically reduced funding to PA, Hamas, et al? Lol!

Predicted by several of youze smart guyz many months ago on RB, the Family Feud will be on the schedule soon...
Posted by: .com || 07/09/2004 12:16 Comments || Top||


Binny directing attacks against the US
A plot to carry out a large-scale terror attack against the United States in the near future is being directed by Osama bin Laden and other top al Qaeda members, senior intelligence officials said Thursday. Bin Laden and his top lieutenant, Ayman al-Zawahiri, are overseeing the attack plans from their remote hideouts somewhere along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, according to senior intelligence officials. "This type of plotting, this type of operational activity, is being done with the direct direction and authorization of that senior leadership," said one official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. Arrests of terror suspects in Europe and the Middle East resulted in the new warning, said Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge. "We lack precise knowledge about time, place and method of attack," he said. "But along with the CIA, FBI and other agencies, we are actively working to gain that knowledge." A senior U.S. intelligence official said the warning was based on "a very strong body of intelligence." The planned attack is "an effort to disrupt the democratic process" before November’s elections, Ridge said.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/09/2004 9:34:21 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "from their remote hideouts somewhere along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border"


like Iran-ish?
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 0:12 Comments || Top||

#2  Anyone listen to sKerry tonight on Larry King? He criticized the failure to capture bin Laden in Tora Bora, noting that we had Army troops in the region but chose to let the Afghan milita try to nail him instead. sKerry claimed that he and Skippy-boy would prosecute the WoT better.
Posted by: Steve White || 07/09/2004 0:14 Comments || Top||

#3  If Bush hadn't divided our military forces Osama would be dead or in jail awaiting trial by now.
Posted by: TROLL || 07/09/2004 2:31 Comments || Top||

#4  What's that I smell? It's getting thicker, isn't it? Hhmmm, troll droppings.
At least it's honest.

Think of it this way, Troll--we're just spreading the wealth. If Bush hadn't divided our forces, that would mean so many more "innocent" Afghan civilians dead or injured, wouldn't it? It's the law of declining profits, doesn't this work out for you? Isn't that what American armed forces do best? :)
Posted by: therien || 07/09/2004 3:02 Comments || Top||

#5  Care to back that statement up with facts and reason? Bet you cannot - at least not anything that coudl witstand critical analysis by someone who knows the forces involved and politics of the nations in the region.
Posted by: OldSpook || 07/09/2004 3:02 Comments || Top||

#6  Eh? Sorry OS, that was rhetorical.
Posted by: therien || 07/09/2004 3:08 Comments || Top||

#7  Osama is dead in some collapsed Afghan cave. If he were alive I'm sure he'd be eager to release a video showing himself with a recent newspaper... and ranting about how he will destroy America!
Posted by: Scooter McGruder || 07/09/2004 6:18 Comments || Top||

#8  I did enjoy the rumor that Binny is currently locked up in the basement of Musharaff's Presidental mansion, ready to be handed over to Bush for an "October Surprise". Not bloody likely, but a great conspiracy theory.
Posted by: Scooter McGruder || 07/09/2004 6:21 Comments || Top||

#9  We're gonna have to send an angry RantBurg lettre of protest to Charles Johnson for starting up registration.

I smell Kamel Krapper, Irish Idiot and one other vague stinker.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 10:52 Comments || Top||

#10  MSM: "Uh, yes, Mr. Ridge, I know you just told us that there's no specifics on timing or location of the next attack, just some intel on them planning it. Could you tell me, what's President Bush's exit strategy for Afghanistan and the American people would like to know EXACTLY how much it's going to cost."

Ridge: "I'm going to pretend you didn't just ask that question, you troll."
Posted by: BA || 07/09/2004 11:03 Comments || Top||

#11  Anyone listen to sKerry tonight on Larry King? He criticized the failure to capture bin Laden in Tora Bora, noting that we had Army troops in the region but chose to let the Afghan milita try to nail him instead. sKerry claimed that he and Skippy-boy would prosecute the WoT better.

This guy is the biggest Monday Morning QB I have ever seen. He has done nothing pre-emptively that is original, innovative, positive, organized or efficient in terms of policy or executive management ability. All his ideas and policies are knee jerk reactions. And when he does talk he looks down on you, condenscendingly, with that late-Lurch look. I shiver at the thought of this cabal of idiots getting into the WH while we have the WoT going on.
Posted by: Jack is Back! || 07/09/2004 11:09 Comments || Top||

#12  Steve W, the LKL appearance is the same one where he admitted that he was too busy (partying with celebs in NYC as it turns out) to hear the briefing on the recent threat warnings offered by the Bush Administration. What a loser!
Posted by: Tibor || 07/09/2004 11:15 Comments || Top||

#13  So Binny and Zawahiri are communicating via Ouji board?
Posted by: ed || 07/09/2004 11:17 Comments || Top||

#14  #11...JiB: Monday morning QB, yes, but you must admit...they have great hair and that's what matters!
Posted by: BA || 07/09/2004 11:40 Comments || Top||

#15  I'm with Scooter and ed. No way to know right now, but I bet Osama is sweating it out on the eternal rotisserie right now, not hiding out in Pakistan.
Posted by: sludj || 07/09/2004 13:27 Comments || Top||

#16  Steve-yep, sure did. And as usual, he was guaranteeing what cannot be guaranteed-what he will get from other countries once he becomes president. Kerry is the personification of boastful assumption. It's laughable, except that some actually buy it.


Posted by: jules 187 || 07/09/2004 15:00 Comments || Top||


Israel-Palestine
Israel was forced to protect itself resulting from this!. (reality photo)
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 22:13 || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:


Iraq-Jordan
Egyptian’s Kidnappers Seek Ransom From Saudi Sponsor
The kidnappers of an Egyptian driver taken hostage in Iraq have demanded an unspecified ransom from his Saudi employer for his release, his sponsor and employer said. The sponsor, Faisal ibn Ali Al-Nuheit, told Al-Madinah newspaper that the kidnappers of Sayed Muhammad Sayed Al-Gharbawi contacted him earlier this week to demand a ransom, but he refused to pay up. The kidnappers called again on Thursday and asked for a delegate to be sent to the Iraqi city of Fallujah to negotiate Al-Gharbawi’s release, but he again refused. “I told the man who called that I rejected their request and demanded that they release Al-Gharbawi because he is a Muslim and his captors are Muslims too.”

He said the man told him his response would not change anything and hung up. The sponsor denied claims by the kidnappers that the Egyptian was working for the US occupation forces in Iraq. Al-Nuheit said Al-Gharbawi confessed under duress he was working with the Americans but in fact worked for a Buraidah-based company in the Kingdom and was transporting fuel to Iraq under an arrangement with the Saudi Al-Jari company. Al-Nuheit stressed the work had nothing to do with the Americans. Al-Jazeerah television station reported on Wednesday that Al-Gharbawi was taken hostage by Iraqi fighters while driving a fuel tanker. The hostage, a man in his fifties, with a gray beard and wearing a jellabiyah, was seen holding a passport in one hand, surrounded by four armed men, their heads and faces covered, on a brief snatch of video broadcast by the station. Meanwhile, officials at Al-Jari company confirmed that the Egyptian driver’s abductors had demanded a ransom, but did not specify the sum requested. The company’s General Manager, Huzam Al-Kahtani, was quoted by Asharq Al-Awsat as confirming that the Egyptian driver’s abductors had demanded a ransom and said negotiations were under way to secure Al-Gharbawi’s release.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) || 07/09/2004 8:52:24 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  ransom huh? Inshal'lah! make it nonsequential small bills so Muggsy and I Abu and our Shaheed army can continue the living large! fight for Allan!
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 23:48 Comments || Top||

#2  Does these demented kidnappers think that a Saudi sponsor is going to depart with any of his money to rescue an egyptian? Somebody has to inform the kidnappers that Egyptians are second class muslims in Saudi Arabia. They are probably a little bit above the value of a camel. Maybe if the ramsom is for the value of said beast...
Posted by: Anonymous4724 || 07/09/2004 23:54 Comments || Top||


De Mello killer revealed
An Egyptian militant who once played hockey for a top Italian club was the suicide driver who took a lorry loaded with explosives into the UN compound which killed Sergio Vieira de Mello, its top envoy, and 21 other people last August, according to a video tape obtained by the Guardian. The tape, which attempts to glorify several suicide bombers who have died in Iraq over the past year, says Abu Farida al-Masri, described as Egyptian, had a history of violent attacks.
Since "al-Masri" means "the Egyptian," I'd guess that's an accurate description. How 'bout you, Holmes?
"On his return from Italy he ran several operations against filthy Egyptian Coptic Christians, who were specialising in removing the virginity of Muslim women," the tape says.
These guys have some really, really serious sexual hangups. I'm not a medical professional, but I definitely suspect dinky doinker syndrome...
It goes on to say that Abu Farida had a dream in which, he told his friends later, "God will give me the head of a Christian". The tape then says that the dream came true with the killing of Mr de Mello with the use of a lorry containing several tons of explosives. The UN building was full of "agents", it claims. But Mr de Mello was specially targeted because the top UN envoy "had been used like a surgeon’s scalpel to cut East Timor from Indonesia and cut up Yugoslavia, and the [UN] wanted to cut Iraq into pieces also".
Posted by: TS(vice girl) || 07/09/2004 8:06:58 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Geez, if he wanted head from a supposed Christian, he coulda bought it from Anti - she's not using hers
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 20:50 Comments || Top||

#2  About their sexual hangups.... their entire lives are wasted trying to stop other people from having sex! Seriously.
Posted by: Anonymous4724 || 07/10/2004 0:00 Comments || Top||


Israel-Palestine
The Paleo's Joooooish friend
Posted by: BA || 07/09/2004 13:48 || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "I am proof he is not a monster," Tali Fahima says of Zakariya Zubeidi.

No, um, not exactly. Your actions are more proof that you have a variation of the Florence Nightingale complex, not to mention that you're a raving loonie. Take your meds and stay out of the kill zone, twit. Sheesh, it does, indeed, take all kinds.
Posted by: .com || 07/09/2004 20:31 Comments || Top||

#2  page not found, PD! Also, clue not found, Tali. Human Shields get broken too. Kill him....let her suffer the consequences of her stupidity
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 20:55 Comments || Top||

#3  Arrrrgggghhhh! A hyphen, not an underscore on this one! Sorry!
Posted by: .com || 07/09/2004 21:11 Comments || Top||

#4  GREAT pic, dot com! I love it! Kinda new to RB, but I'm loving every minute of it! Kinda like anti, but I'm with you guys on all subjects...just can't stay away!
Posted by: BA || 07/09/2004 23:35 Comments || Top||

#5  BA - welcome aboard the runaway train! :-)
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 23:43 Comments || Top||

#6  Frank: I appreciate it!
Posted by: BA || 07/10/2004 0:45 Comments || Top||


Russia
Report: Editor of Russian Forbes Killed
The American editor of Forbes Magazine's Russian edition and author of a book about tycoon Boris Berezovsky was shot to death late Friday, the magazine said. Paul Klebnikov, 41, was hit four times outside the magazine's office and died in a rescue-squad vehicle, Russian news reports said. The radio station Ekho Moskvy said shells of two different caliber were found at the scene, indicating at least two assailants. Police could not be reached for comment, but the killing was confirmed in a statement by Forbes publisher Steve Forbes.
Posted by: Fred || 07/09/2004 7:15:46 PM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:


Africa: North
The Importance Of Morocco
Yesterday, King Mohammed VI of Morocco visited the White House for a meeting with US President Bush. The importance the Bush administration gives to Morocco is shown by the recent Free Trade Agreement the US government signed with Morocco, the inclusion of the Moroccan armed forces in the upcoming NATO excercises MEDSHARK-Majestic Eagle ’04 off the coast of Cap Draa, and finally but probably most importantly, the diplomatic support the US is lending Morocco in its dispute with Algeria over Western Sahara, a former Spanish colony until 1975, located between Morocco and Mauretania.

The Algerian-backed separation movement called Polisario calls for an independent state, and Algeria supports them, perhaps as ’change’ for the resolvement of other standing conflicts with Morocco, perhaps out of fear of a bigger neighbor, even though since a cease fire between Polisario and Morocco in 1991, Western Sahara has been administered by Morocco. Since 1991 several attempts have been made to resolve the dispute, but conferences and decisions have been postponed throughout the nineties, until recently the region has been the focus of diplomacy again.

The reason for this of course is the War on Terror. Western Sahara counts about a quarter of a million inhabitants, mostly nomad farmers. An independent Western Sahara would be an ideal candidate for ’failed state’ status, and would almost inmediately attract the attention of terrorist networks like Al Qaeda or their regional affiliate the GSPC. Morocco themselves have a big fight on their hands with the Al Qaeda-linked Moroccan Combatant Islamic Group, responsible for the 2003 Casablanca bombings, and suspected of involvement in the March 11 Madrid attacks, and these groups too could benefit from a new hiding place right under Morocco’s nose.

Recently, former Secretary of State James Baker resigned as the United Nation’s mediator in the Western Sahara dispute. I believe his stepping aside, perhaps under pressure of the Bush administration -but that’s just me thinking out loud, favors the Moroccans in their stance that Western Sahara is part of Morocco. Baker’s plans were continuously opposed by Rabat. It may also be possible that with the US’ renewed interest in Morocco, Baker felt he had to step aside to avoid a possible future conflict of interest, being a loyal Bush supporter. In any case, he cited health reasons.

In any case, this seems very solvable to me. Times have changed, and both Algeria and Morocco find themselves in hard fights with domestic and international terrorism. Both nations should be explained that like it or not, they’re on the same side of the fence, and need to accept the fact that an independent Western Sahara will bring the prospect of terrorist bases on either country’s borders. Of course, Morocco will have to accept that the indigenous people need their worries met too, so a federalist state seems the best solution, with local government ensuring own rule, but within the confines of a greater Morocco.

Viewing all this from Spain, one cannot but note the slightly bitter aftertaste all this is causing. Though officially the socialist government seems pleased with Morocco’s FTA-status with the US, it was mainly responding to opposition party PP’s comments that this was yet another sign that Spain was more and more being isolated by the US. But then again, the socialists seem happy to tag along France and Germany. As to Western Sahara, inmediately after Franco’s death in 1975, the new government of Spain pulled out of then-called Spanish Sahara, and left it to Mauretania and Morocco to occupy (does this sound familiar?) Its stance seems neutral as to the future of the territory, and it hasn’t shown the same involvement in its ex-colony as say Portugal with Timor. To me, it is more seen as an opportunity though to play the part of mediator, adding to its ’special relationship’ with Northern Africa, which is useful within the EU.

One final piece of the puzzle will be the US naval station at Rota, in Southern Spain. As we will see in the coming years of the Zapatero government, indeed, we have seen it already with Spain’s refusal to send NATO’s newly formed rapid reaction force to Afghanistan, aping France’s position, his socialist government may become more and more anti-NATO, even though for now this is on hold because Zapatero feels compelled to support it because it is one of those ’international institutions’ he so very much likes to prop up.

My suggestion to the Pentagon would be to make it easy on him, and move the Rota Naval station to Morocco, but in Western Sahara. Not only will this provide security to the local Saharians under Moroccan rule, it will also prove to the world that Western Sahara is part of Morocco. I’d hate to see them leave, but they’re a lot closer over there to the front in the War on Terror and states like Sudan, Congo and Ivory Coast. At the same time, Donald Rumsfeld can use the transfer as part of his ongoing efforts to restructure the military, building instead a new base more fit to confront the challenges ahead.
Posted by: V-Man || 07/09/2004 2:28:36 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Hell! They're Huge! Been there every year since about 1932. It a signature event for racing. We can't lose Monacco.
Posted by: B Ecclestone || 07/09/2004 16:58 Comments || Top||

#2  Give it up Bernie, we'll always have Spa.
Posted by: Rick || 07/09/2004 16:59 Comments || Top||


Africa: Horn
Sudan warns US against ’new Iraq’

Friday, 9 July, 2004, 12:52 GMT 13:52 UK

Sudan has warned the United States against creating another Iraq-style situation by getting too involved in the Darfur conflict. Foreign Minister Mustafa Ismail said that sanctions would worsen the crisis.
Fine. Let’s try a different tack. For a start, we’ll blow away Mustafa Ismail and every other Sudanese government official we can find. Anybody else could bollix things up the same as these guys and do no worse.
The UN Security Council has this week been debating a US draft resolution to impose sanctions of the Arab militia accused of widespread atrocities. US Secretary of State Colin Powell said that Sudan had "days" to stop the violence or face possible sanctions. Some one million people have fled their homes and at least 10,000 killed since two rebel groups took up arms last year.

Mr Ismail warned "those voices which have drawn the world to the Iraq war not to take it to a new war which it will be difficult to disengage from," in an interview with Sudan’s Al-Rai Al-Aam newspaper.
Just one more reason to decap their government.
The draft resolution includes sanctions against leaders of the Arab Janjaweed militia, which could be widened to include members of the government, which is accused of backing them. Mr Ismail said these sanctions risked "weakening the credibility of agreements" made with Mr Powell and UN Secretary General Kofi Annan for the Sudan government to disarm the Janjaweed.

France opposes sanctions
Big surprise there, eh folks?
Mr Powell on Thursday said that Sudan had not delivered on its pledge. "President Bush, the United States Congress, Secretary General Annan and the international community want more than promises," he said. "We want to see dramatic improvements on the ground right now," he added.

France has also said it does not support extending the sanctions to the Khartoum government itself. The Security Council met in closed session for several hours on Wednesday and the draft resolution was again discussed on Thursday. Council members also disagree over how long the Sudanese government should be given to resolve the situation itself. The US draft resolution threatens to escalate the sanctions within 30 days if results are not evident. But some countries say that Sudan should be allowed more time.
I’d like to see some AC-130H gunships sweep any gatherings of the Janjaweed maggots.

Resources

Earlier on Thursday, African leaders meeting in Addis Ababa decided that a protection force they agreed to send would defend Darfur civilians, as well as guard African Union ceasefire observers. The Chairman of the African Union Commission, Alpha Oumar Konare, said the 300 troops would arrive in Sudan by the end of July. The BBC’s Barnaby Phillips says the union is determined to be taken seriously as a body devoted to solving the continent’s problems, but is severely hampered by a lack of resources. Analysts say that at least 15,000 peacekeepers would be needed in the vast arid areas of Darfur. African leaders say they hope richer countries will also do their bit to help.
You mean like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kuwait or Bahrain? Don’t hold your breath.
Human rights activists say the Janjaweed are conducting a genocide against Darfur’s black African population - although the UN and member states have refrained from using the word.
Just like they’ve refrained from using the word "anti-Semitism" for so many decades.
A rebellion broke out in Darfur early last year, when two groups took up arms, accusing the government of ignoring the region. Those who have fled their homes say the Janjaweed ride on horses and camels into villages which have just been bombed by government aircraft, killing the men and raping the women.
Posted by: Zenster || 07/09/2004 3:40:07 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Headline: Sudan warns US against ’new Iraq’

First, it was Vietnam. Then, it was Beirut. After that, it was Mogadishu. And now, it's Iraq. These morons don't seem to understand that pushing Uncle Sam's buttons leads to the administration of a good thrashing for the button-pushers.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 07/09/2004 16:52 Comments || Top||

#2  "I’d like to see some AC-130H gunships sweep any gatherings of the Janjaweed maggots." You know i think that is about what it would take to straighten out this situation. What Mr Ismail was really saying: 'If you intefere with our enslavment of the christians we will run and hide.'
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 07/09/2004 17:10 Comments || Top||

#3  CS: Don't forget, we will run away and taunt you a 2nd time! Unbelievable...the frogs (who's oil company have the biggest contract in Sudan for production) are up to their necks in TRUE oil for blood monies in Iraq AND Sudan! I've been somewhat tracking this for 2 years now through www.persecution.com (a Christian website for persecuted Christians). Let's let the AC-130s roll!
Posted by: BA || 07/09/2004 17:40 Comments || Top||


Africa: Subsaharan
2 Nigerians recruited by al-Qaeda tell their tale
Two Nigerians suspected to have been recruited and trained by the dreaded militant Islamic group in the Middle East, Al Qaeda, yesterday in Kano, told newsmen how they escaped from a camp in Mauritania, where they were taken and camped for seven months.

The trainees, Hamza Mohammed and Nura Umar, who were paraded by the State Security Service (SSS) in the state narrated how along with other youths and teenagers, numbering about 11, they were deceived with the promise of enrolment into a Quranic school in Mauritania. They later found out that the school was mere tents without any teacher or guardian to cater for them.

According to them, one Nazifi Inuwa informed them about the school and he linked them to another person, Alhaji Bello Damagum, who accepted to sponsor their trip.

However, when they arrived the country via Mali, Hamza and other students, were taken to a village called Umul-Qura, where they were left to survive on their own.

"We were told to find our way out when one of us was ill. We called Alh. Bello but he plainly told us that he had already finished his part so we were on our own.

"When we first arrived we asked for our school they said those tents were the schools and we also asked for our teacher and they said there was no teacher we should just learn the way we saw others do," they said .

They said they had to beg for crumbs at mosques to survive and the extreme hardship forced them to revolt against those who were behind their stay.

According to Nura, "we went to the house of the man, who kept our passports and demanded for them, but he told us that until we graduated he would not give."

He, however, noted that he and nine other students, had threatened to burn down the man’s house before he eventually agreed to release the passports.

But after collecting the passport, the trainees said they had to face more trouble again as they did not have money for their transport back to Nigeria.

Nuru said, one Muktari Kalla, who works with the Nigerian Embassy in Mauritania gave them N21,000 which they found very handy.

"We travelled to Mali, and later Burkina-Faso, where the ambassador gave some money, which we used for our transport back to Nigeria through Niger Republic," he said.

He, however, pointed out that they spent two months on the return journey. "We sometimes spend 4 to 5 days without food, surviving on mango and other fruits," he said.

But when asked about alleged connection of Al Qaeda with their mission, both insisted that they travelled to Mauritania out of their zeal to learn and memorise the holy Quran.

The state SSS director, Alh. Sadik Dalhatu, later told newsmen that investigations are still going in to know what goes on in the Mauritania camp.

He said "most of them are even praying to die in order to save themselves of the predicament."
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/09/2004 1:19:54 PM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  you have a source for this? TIA
Posted by: V-Man || 07/09/2004 14:33 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan/South Asia
The man who thinks he's George Clooney
The Jonathan Keith "Jack" Idema story, EFL:
Yesterday, Afghan security forces and the US military admitted they appeared to have uncovered a freelance counterterrorism mission by bounty hunters, who may have been lured to the country by the prospect of earning multimillion-dollar rewards. At the heart of their investigation is a former American special forces soldier, Jonathan Keith "Jack" Idema, who is alleged to have run the private jail and was being questioned last night.
Mr Idema, who is said to be always heavily armed, is far from the only ex-military man to be making a living in Kabul, which has an atmosphere redolent of The Third Man, Graham Greene's thriller about postwar Vienna. Many of the private security guards attached to embassies and commercial companies have military histories, either real or imagined. Typically, they can be seen in dark glasses and camouflage gear, sub-machine guns slung over their shoulders as they ride through the city. They are often to be seen at the Mustafa hotel, one of the few bars that sell alcohol to ex-pats, who gather for the hotel's popular roof-top barbecues.
Mr Idema, it emerged yesterday, has a colourful past. A volatile former Green Beret with a criminal record in the US, he describes himself as a security adviser. He also claims that he is the person on whom George Clooney's part in the Hollywood film The Peacemaker was based.
Like I said yesterday, a legend in his own mind.

While there has been no official explanation of what sort of operation he was running, there are large rewards on offer for the capture of al-Qaida members in Afghanistan, which has led to a boom in the private security business. The biggest reward of all - $25m - remains on offer for information leading to the capture of Osama bin Laden.
That would be peanuts compared to what you'd get for the book and movie rights.

Mr Idema knows all about him, having collaborated with Robin Moore, the author of the book The Hunt for Bin Laden, a gung-ho account, published last year, of the so-far unsuccessful pursuit of the al-Qaida leader.
Mr Idema has a chequered history not untypical of some of the ex-military personnel who have been drawn to Kabul. Although the US military authorities would not confirm his record yesterday, he is said to have been a member of the special forces between 1975 and 1992. After leaving the forces, he ran a military equipment firm in the US. He was convicted of wire fraud and other offences in connection with that business in the 90s. One rightwing news website in the US suggests that he was only charged after he refused to cooperate with the FBI and the CIA over information which he claimed he had about weapons-grade nuclear material being sold in Russia to foreign terrorist groups.
Humm, must have been some other rightwing news website.

This information, gathered when he was in Lithuania, is the source of a legal action that Mr Idema launched against Steven Spielberg's film company DreamWorks SKG. In 2000, he issued a writ against DreamWorks, claiming its 1997 film The Peacemaker, which starred George Clooney and Nicole Kidman, was based on his story. The film is about a maverick American colonel, played by Clooney, who tracks down a Russian nuclear smuggling team. He claimed damages of $130m. The case is ongoing.
In the meantime, he had become something of a media security pundit, popping up on television programmes to comment on security matters.
Along with every other retired officer on the planet

During the war in Afghanistan in 2001, Mr Idema and a number of other former US military members linked up with the Northern Alliance rebel group, who were fighting the Taliban. He offered his services to the media and appeared on American television news programmes after having supposedly found al-Qaida training camp footage in Kabul. When Fox News showed the footage, Mr Idema launched another civil action, seeking $2m damages for supposedly showing the footage without his permission.
He also threatened to punch Geraldo Rivera, the controversial Fox News commentator, who, Mr Idema claimed, had messed up the operations of the Northern Alliance by irresponsible reporting.
OK, so he does have a good side.

Mr Idema, who has a reputation in Kabul for volatility, is also the source of much internet gossip on sites used by ex-members of the US special forces, not all of whom would describe themselves as admirers. Now Mr Idema remains in the custody of Afghanistan's intelligence officials. In a country where the legal framework barely exists, his stay could be even longer than that of his detainees.
Say goodbye, Jack.
Posted by: Steve || 07/09/2004 10:50:33 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  He also claims that he is the person on whom George Clooney's part in the Hollywood film The Peacemaker was based.

Hey, that was on last night! Man, did it suck.
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/09/2004 11:50 Comments || Top||

#2  Hey. I am going to sue Magnum, PI. That's my story (even though I am only 33...)
Posted by: Dragon Fly || 07/09/2004 12:08 Comments || Top||

#3  Mr Idema ..... A force of one. I kinda like this loose cannon.
Posted by: Anonymous5072 || 07/09/2004 12:45 Comments || Top||

#4  Im wonder if he has a sawed off Winchester and steely blue eyes.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 13:42 Comments || Top||

#5  If his suit on the Peacemaker is still ongoing, that means there has to be something to his claim. Otherwise Spielberg would have had this case thrown out by the judge long ago.

That would be peanuts compared to what you'd get for the book and movie rights.

Careful, Hollywood just might do that. Except they would buy the story from Osama.

Posted by: Charles || 07/09/2004 15:33 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Teachers Among Reservists Being Deployed To Iraq
TheHawaiiChannel.com 7-9-04
The country of Iraq may now be under Iraqi control, but that is not stopping nearly 2,000 Hawaii-based National Guard reservists from being sent there. The group ships out to Iraq in February, but the reservists will be heading to the mainland for training in September. Many of those deploying are teachers who will be leaving the state’s classrooms. Waianae High School teacher Hank Choy is one of Hawaii’s educators headed to Iraq with the National Guard. Choy worries the teacher who replaces him will not be as firm. "I push the kids, really push them," Choy said. Choy says the loss of deploying education officers and teachers will be felt all over the state. "If you take these good teachers out and you try to fill somebody back in No two people fit in the same shoes," Choy said.
Do you get the impression he doesn't want to go to Iraq?
The teachers’ union said it’s uncertain how many teachers will be deployed, but there are 600 either in the reserves or the guard. "The overall concern is the current teacher shortage that we have," said teachers union president Roger Takabayashi. "That’s the problem to begin with, and you add this on top of it, and that’s another issue. There is just a tremendous teacher shortage." The Department of Education said it will have to hire full replacements for the guard soldiers at war since they will be gone for 18 months. The Pentagon has been deploying more National Guard troops to Iraq because the active duty Army is not large enough to keep up with needed troop rotations. National Guard brigades in Iraq will grow from three to five, including our Hawaii brigade.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 3:27:37 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "How can we indoctrinate young minds if we have to live up to our committments and go to war?We are too valuable to send....please, I beg you!"
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 12:53 Comments || Top||

#2  I say nothing! Nothing!

Except....
Anyone who wonders what's wrong with Florida's K-12 system never dated an ed major.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 14:15 Comments || Top||

#3  I can't stand to hear conservatives bash teachers, in general, when it's the bad apples that make the whole bunch seem rotten. It reminds of the Iraq Abu G prison fiasco.

Good teachers are loyal to their commitment to educate, and really care about their students. No doubt they'd rather be in the classroom than in the desert. Why assume the worst?

If conservatives want to make a difference in education, volunteer at a school, find out about what's going on in the field, and make sure the money gets to the teachers rather than to the administrators.

If teaching is held in esteem and supported by the public financially with higher salaries, and if there is public involvement and support in the schools, better (can we say intelligent) candidates will be interested in it as a career, and then perhaps the stupid liberals in the teaching profession can (for a change) be marginalized and forced to the sidelines.

The war for the minds of the youth of America is no small matter. They are the future.

Posted by: ex-lib || 07/09/2004 14:58 Comments || Top||

#4  The war for the minds of the youth of America is no small matter. They are the future.

I think someone once said something like, "The hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world." Why then do “ed majors” average the lowest scores on the Graduate Record Exam? I think the low pay tends to attract lesser minds, content to be used by administrators with a PC agenda. Conspiracy, anyone? ; )
Posted by: cingold || 07/09/2004 15:28 Comments || Top||

#5  Why then do “ed majors” average the lowest scores on the Graduate Record Exam?

Trapped in their own web. The kind of instruction that resulted in most of us being fairly competent in math, English, and science is exactly what is in disfavor with the NEA and AFT. Now education is about feelings, expression, and social skills, not about learning abstract concepts for application in real-life situations. Look at how we have been teaching people to read-instead of teaching phonemic awareness (letter/sound correspondences), we encourage students to guess at the meeanings of words-great for higher level classes, but disastrous for beginning and struggling students. And logic? Fugedaboutit.
Posted by: jules 187 || 07/09/2004 15:38 Comments || Top||

#6  ex-lib, I agree with you 100% that Teachers are un a very important (critical) profession and we should reward good, dedicated teachers with higher pay and merit-based increases. My sister is a Teacher in the Portland area.

Unfortunately the Unions, who currently hold all the cards, dont want merit-based incentives but senority-based.

Right now here in Washington State the Teachers Union is in a full court press against a bill before the voters for a limited form of charter schools. They say it would take money away from public schools (i.e. their pockets). In reality they are afraid of the compitition (charter schools could use non-union teachers, and base raises and promotion on merit. That big sucking sound you hear are the good, dedicated, teachers leaving public schools for charter schools....).

This is the same union which engages in exortion against its own membership in order to extort funds for the democratic party through mandatory political contributions (as in 'You will contribute to the democratic party or you will not work in this state...').
Posted by: CrazyFool || 07/09/2004 16:08 Comments || Top||

#7  That teachers are an inportant....

Sorry for the typos....
Posted by: CrazyFool || 07/09/2004 16:09 Comments || Top||

#8  pssst.... ex-lib teaching schools in an "urban environment" is my retirement jog/hobby. :)
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 17:46 Comments || Top||

#9  jog? LOL
IMA teach keybroad skillz!
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 17:47 Comments || Top||

#10  Shipman, Bravo...and you are too funny with your Mucky skillz!
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 17:49 Comments || Top||

#11  teachurs are can do they job beter if they are pay more.
Posted by: muck4doo || 07/09/2004 17:50 Comments || Top||

#12  Speak of the Muckster...eh, Voilà!
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 17:51 Comments || Top||

#13  Wish I was young enough to volunteer. Special Education is my area...just received an NEA flyer that made Kerry look like a saint for the teaching profession...however am not swayed. Yes, NEA protects all teachers, downside of which is the incompetent get paid the same as the competent. Another real problem nowadays is the enforced teaching of "multiculturalism" - a murky mix of globalism, socialism, gay & lesbian agendas...with nary a trace of patriotism...
Posted by: borgboy || 07/09/2004 18:18 Comments || Top||

#14  My Wife a teacher and life long Republican is forced to belong to the NEA. No choice. The Union calls all the shots the local assoc has no say. It's all run from Sacremento and the national level. They could care less what local members think. They have it so they are obligated to pay their dues and could care less. Life is sweet when you are in the pocket of the National Democratic party and can count on it and it's lackeys to require membership to keep your job.

I volunteered in the libary at my daughters grade school it was good for the kids and good for me. I encourage it.
Posted by: FlameBait93268 || 07/09/2004 23:28 Comments || Top||


Mistress Lynndie to face more charges
An Army private accused of abusing Iraqis at Abu Ghraib prison faces more charges of committing indecent acts, but none of the new charges involves Iraqi citizens or detainees, the Army said Friday. Pfc. Lynndie England, a West Virginia soldier now assigned to Fort Bragg, previously faced three counts of assaulting detainees and ten other charges. She was charged late Thursday with one count of violating a general order and four counts of indecent acts, said Fort Bragg spokesman Maj. Richard Patterson. He said specifics of the charges would be revealed next week when an investigatory Article 32 hearing is held at the post.
I can't wait.
"None of these five charges involved Iraqi detainees or Iraqi nationals," Patterson said. If convicted on the original charges, England faced a dishonorable discharge and up to 15 1/2 years in prison. Army officials didn't know how much the additional charges would add to a sentence.
Not much, but Lynndie seems to like piling on, so why not.
The Washington Post reported it had obtained images of England undressed and in sexual poses with a male soldier.
Was she ordered to pose for these photos?
Photos released earlier in the abuse scandal showed pointing at Iraqi prisoners' genitals and holding a leash attached to a prisoner. Defense lawyer Richard Hernandez told The Post that the new photos were personal and had nothing to do with the prisoner abuse charges.
But a lot to do with her lack of character.
The attorney couldn't be reached immediately for comment Friday by The Associated Press. England, a support specialist from Fort Ashby, W.Va., is one of six soldiers who still face charges in the scandal; one has already pleaded guilty and been sentenced to a year in prison. All seven soldiers charged in the abuse scandal are from the 372nd Military Police Company, an Army Reserve unit from Cresaptown, Md.
Posted by: Steve || 07/09/2004 10:24:50 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Give her a DD and time served. By now it's like digging up the body of the dog that bit you, so that you can kick it some more. I would start to question the competency of those who wish to pursue this *in lieu* of more pressing matters.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 07/09/2004 10:59 Comments || Top||

#2  I kinda agree. Sooner or later you take the trash out. Karpinski, OTOH needs to be prosecuted and DD'd
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 11:16 Comments || Top||

#3  While I'm normally a "throw the book at her" type, I have a different view in this case. This chick seems to like being punished and degraded, so she would probably get off on it. I wholeheartedly agree on Karpinski, Frank. She's an embarrassment to the uniform who has not shown an ounce of honor or courage.
Posted by: Tibor || 07/09/2004 13:10 Comments || Top||

#4  You mean there isn't anything there about how she only did it due to the influence of zionist israeli intelligence agents? (Phil writes on card, holds it up) 4.5 out of 10
Posted by: Phil Fraering || 07/09/2004 13:39 Comments || Top||

#5  He said specifics of the charges would be revealed next week when an investigatory Article 32 hearing is held at the post.

Do I need to put down a depsit for the brown wrapper?
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 14:16 Comments || Top||

#6  Shipman, yeppers.
Lynndie is a dirty, nasty girl!
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 14:19 Comments || Top||

#7  DD and a swift kick.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 07/09/2004 14:30 Comments || Top||

#8  Listen you spin-eaters: the humiliation pictures were all taken on a single day, and they were set-up as interrogation means, consistent with American criminal law procedure. Bush dumped on front-line troops before investigations had began, because he chose to pander to his Muslim pals. That's lynch law. Real supporters of America's troops can tell when America's finest are being hung out to dry, by a rich kid Prez, who is owned by Saudis.
http://www.sftt.org/
http://hackworth.com/
Don't let the Texas lame-duck speak for you. Get with the program!
Posted by: Dog Bites Trolls || 07/09/2004 21:44 Comments || Top||

#9  speaking of programming...
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 21:59 Comments || Top||

#10  hackworth

Figures that one troll would cite another troll.
Posted by: Pappy || 07/09/2004 22:19 Comments || Top||

#11  "the humiliation pictures were all taken on a single day"

-don't think anyone's disputing that point dbt. She's in trouble over her own posing naked w/some other soldier. Charges unbecoming & a separate incident. Though I agree w/you that Abu Ghraib is an overblown joke - she is getting fried for f&ck'n the wrong dude not f&cking w/the jihadi losers.
Posted by: Jarhead || 07/09/2004 22:48 Comments || Top||

#12  Hackworth?

That 75 year old jackoff is a has been. He is only on topic when it comes to special ops, and even then his Vietnam era mindset leads him astray. Sorry Pops, this isnt your army - hell, its not even mine any more.
Posted by: OldSpook || 07/09/2004 23:37 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan/South Asia
US disowns Kabul 'bounty-hunters'
EFL: The US State Department says three US citizens arrested in Afghanistan are counter-terrorism mercenaries operating outside Washington's command. Spokesman Richard Boucher said the US government "does not employ or sponsor" the three, who were arrested by Afghan authorities on Monday. Afghan officials accuse the men of running a private prison in Kabul. Correspondents say the US bounty for al-Qaeda fugitives has drawn many foreign vigilantes to Afghanistan.
I thought they might be bounty hunters.
The US government has promised $25m for anyone who facilitates the arrest of al-Qaeda kingpin Osama Bin Laden. Mr Boucher confirmed that one of the arrested men was Jonathan K Idema, who has described himself as a counter-terrorism expert and former US commando. One of those arrested with him was named as Brent Bennet; the third man was not identified. Mr Boucher said the question of what the men "were being held for and what charges might be proffered" was a matter for the Afghan authorities. Four Afghans were also detained along with the three US citizens. The prisoners are now reportedly in the hands of Afghan intelligence officials. Afghan Interior Minister Ali Ahmad Jalali said the arrested men's activities had no legal standing. "They apparently said that their aims were to act against those carrying out terrorist attacks," Mr Jalali told journalists in Kabul. "But they did not have a legal relationship with anyone and the United States was also chasing them - they are actually rebels," he said.

Security sources have told the BBC that the US military circulated warning notices about Mr Idema some time ago, describing him as armed and dangerous and accusing him of interfering with military operations in Afghanistan. Mr Idema has offered his services to the western media as an expert on fighting the Taleban and al-Qaeda and has also featured in a bestselling book, The Hunt for Bin Laden.
He's a legend in his own mind.
Posted by: Steve || 07/09/2004 9:53:40 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I guess he won't be able to make his appearance on "Imus in the Morning" this week.
Posted by: Jack is Back! || 07/09/2004 10:53 Comments || Top||

#2  Maybe it is time to bring private enterprise to bear as a weapon in the WoT. Congress is authorised to issue Letters of Marque and Reprisal. Think of it as a job creation program!
Posted by: SteveS || 07/09/2004 11:07 Comments || Top||

#3  He's a legend in his own mind.

Isn't there a one-a-day limit on the use of cliches? :-)
Posted by: Raj || 07/09/2004 12:03 Comments || Top||

#4  Nothing wrong with bounty hunters, although I'd think publicity stunts probably interfere with the job at hand. Too bad none of them have come up with any of the big-shots - I expect this to be a pretty hairy endeavor, given that the opposition is not only on friendly territory, but also armed to the teeth.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 07/09/2004 12:37 Comments || Top||

#5  I did a photo-shoot with Idema in Fayetteville, NC about ten years ago during one of his SPECIAL OPERATIONS conventions that he helped organized. At that time he shot himself with a .44 caliber handgun to test the "Second Chance" bulletproof vest, which I caught on a ultra-high speed still camera. Other photos show him sporting guns and dressed in military style clothes. I'm not surprised that he would form a free-lance vigilante group to go into Afghanistan. He has the contacts and the bravado.
Posted by: Jeff || 07/09/2004 14:25 Comments || Top||

#6  ..."As always, if any member of your IM Force is caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions. This recording will self destruct in 5 seconds. Good luck, John."......*fssssssssss*....
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 07/09/2004 15:42 Comments || Top||

#7  There is no Idema and he's not a local. Nor is he DIA nor CIA. Keep this under your hat. Now, deal me in .
Posted by: Col Flagg || 07/09/2004 16:15 Comments || Top||


Africa: North
Libya Threatens To Bomb Chad If Terrorist Not Handed Over
Chad Rebels holding Amari Saifi claim that Libya has threatened to bomb them if they do not hand him over to Libyan custody within 48 hours, the BBC reports:
Ammari Saifi - known as Abderrezak - is accused of leading a group which kidnapped 32 European tourists in Algeria last year.

"The Libyan secret service gave us 48 hours to hand [him] over ... or said we will suffer the full wrath of Libya’s armed forces," a rebel spokesman said.

There has been no comment on these claims from Libya.

Mr Saifi allegedly leads the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC), which is blamed for abducting the tourists, many of them Germans, and which is also allegedly linked to al-Qaeda.

The Movement for Democracy and Justice in Chad (MDJC) say they arrested him in March but have no means of handing him to the West.
Again, how hard is it to get a Blackhawk to rendezvous with these rebels?

Update 07/09/2004: Last Sunday’s Le Journal du Dimanche (link not available) mentions that the handover of Amari Saifi had been secured for US$ 246 000, without specifying who paid the ransom. Apparantly, last Saturday an ’official with a country involved in the situation’ told AP that as of last Saturday, so four days before Libya’s threats, a deal was in the works for the rebels to turn over Saifi to Libya, which in turn would hand him to Algeria, for a reported sum of US$ 616 000.

Now, I can’t believe the Libyans’ posture is because they’re looking at a possible loss of US$ 370 000. It could very well be that the Chad rebels have done some calculations themselves, and feel short changed, as experience in Iraq and Afghanistan has tought, money is a definite factor. It would be interesting to learn more from the rebels about their refusal, as well as about Libya’s extremely forceful reaction to not getting their hands on Saifi.
We discussed this yesterday, it's possible that Libya doesn't want Saifi talking to anyone about their involement with the GSPC.
Posted by: V-Man || 07/09/2004 9:45:12 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  true, much like the previous two handed over, allegedly directed the Libyan secret service to an Al Qaeda camp inside Libyan territory close to its border with Chad. The story about the leopard and its spots. What I don't understand is that these rebels don't hand him over to US special forces in the neighborhood, at a better price if that is what it takes.
Posted by: V-Man || 07/09/2004 9:55 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Saddam’s novel slams West
CAIRO: Saddam Hussein’s new novel returns to his favourite theme of good versus evil - the good are Arabs and Muslims, the bad their enemies in the West. The first excerpt of Get Out, You Damned, the manuscript of which was found in the Ministry of Culture after Baghdad’s fall, appeared in Asharq Al Awsat yesterday. The London-based newspaper said it will publish the entire novel over the next several days. The newspaper said it had received its copy from Saddam’s physician, Alla Bashir, who fled Iraq after the war and was believed to be in Qatar. Ali Abdel Amir, an Iraqi writer and critic who has read the whole manuscript, said the novel was similar in style to three attributed to Saddam when he was still in power. All four novels were signed simply: "its author." Abdel Amir said Get Out, You Damned describes a Zionist-Christian conspiracy against Arabs and Muslims and with an Arab leading an army that invades the land of the enemy and topples one of their monumental towers, an apparent reference to the September 11, 2001 bombing of the World Trade Centre in New York by Islamic militants belonging to Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network. Saddam also has been credited with writing AlGore's speeches, Zabibah and the King, The Fortified Citadel and Men and a City.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 3:31:54 AM || Comments || Link || [5 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Look soon for Volume 5: "Prison Fuck Toy".
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/09/2004 9:56 Comments || Top||

#2  Do not be surprised, if a few years from now Saddam becomes a Hero in the Middle Eastern /Muslim World. They will be talking about the Great Battle of Fallujah, where Saddam from a prison cell, directed a batallion of "resistant fighters" who, having Allah by their side, defeated 2000 US Marines...or something like that.
Posted by: Anonymous4724 || 07/09/2004 10:04 Comments || Top||

#3  Michael Moore is buying the film rights.
Posted by: Mike || 07/09/2004 10:17 Comments || Top||

#4  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 11:03 Comments || Top||

#5  did you say something?
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 11:16 Comments || Top||

#6  Antisemite--

Still having problems with the concept of private propoerty, I see. You're not supposed to post here, and in fact you said you wouldn't.

Has your muslim boyfriend just kicked the shit out of you one time too many, and addled your brain?
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 11:17 Comments || Top||

#7  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 11:23 Comments || Top||

#8  Antisemite--

What does freedom of speech have to do with it, you stupid, illiterate Jewhater? You're really subnormal.

I am looking forward to aborigines' taking back the stolen land on which your house stands.
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 11:26 Comments || Top||

#9  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 11:29 Comments || Top||

#10  We're like psycho douchebag crack, aren't we, Anti? You just can't get away from here, can ya?
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/09/2004 11:30 Comments || Top||

#11  Antisemite--

You just love us. You know what's great? You're a second-rate fraud, and you're supposed to take care of the mentally handicapped. Why don't you use your real name, and we'll send your supervisor a list of your comments?

Really too bad that they aren't being saved on the big screen.
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 11:31 Comments || Top||

#12  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 11:40 Comments || Top||

#13  Antisemite--

You really think that people who say "go fuck pigs" ought to be working with "people with intellecutal disabilities"? Please leave us your real name and work address, with your supervisor's name, and we will allow your supervisor to make that determination.
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 11:43 Comments || Top||

#14  And finally what does working for the (correct term)people with intellectual disabilities have to do with anything?

Nothing. Sounds like they probably relate well to you.
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/09/2004 11:44 Comments || Top||

#15  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 11:49 Comments || Top||

#16  Sure. Right after you stop with the "suck dog dick" comments.
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/09/2004 11:52 Comments || Top||

#17  Mind your own business re my job please.

Sure, Antsemite. You just go ahead and tell us to go fuck pigs, that Americans should die, that Israelis are Nazis--and insist we "mind our own business."
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 11:52 Comments || Top||

#18  Y'all don't think Antiwar is Jacques Chirac, do you?
The similarities are scary!
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 11:56 Comments || Top||

#19  New from Zionist Conspiracy Publishing:

Saddam Hussein's latest page-turning thriller:

I am not the criminal! Bush is the criminal! BUSH IS THE CRIMINAL!

On sale now at Barnes & Noble.
Posted by: Chris W. || 07/09/2004 13:04 Comments || Top||

#20  You ever notice how so many of these evil dictators are frustrated artists? That might explain a lot of the support that they get from the arts and croissants crowd.
Posted by: 11A5S || 07/09/2004 13:49 Comments || Top||

#21  Ignore the troll. She says the same crap day after day and we all use up Fred's bandwidth when we rise to her bait. She is not open to alternative views/arguments. Ignore her.
Posted by: remote man || 07/09/2004 13:53 Comments || Top||

#22  I'm still considering buying the DVD set of
Mr. Holland's Opus.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 14:18 Comments || Top||

#23  Who are we kidding? We're just going to cut to the steamy sex scenes anyway!

Female: "Oh, Sadaam! Sadaam! Sadaam! Your Love Scud is so...aiighh!"

Sadaam: "Uday! Get out from under the bed, you American pervert!"

Uday: "Sorry, Dad."

Qusay: "Me, too."
Posted by: dreadnought || 07/09/2004 14:28 Comments || Top||

#24  Antiwar(s) 's comments in the sinktrap further pin him as an Islamic:

The insults are classic- "-go fuck pigs, your dick is tiny and you are impotent, you are a living miscarriage," etc.
In the past Antiwar(s)'s insults involve women's periods and such. These particular types of insults are Islamic pseudo-man classics.

I doubt anyone still believes Antiwar is a middle-aged Australian liberal female.



Posted by: ex-lib || 07/09/2004 15:18 Comments || Top||

#25  I think Antisemite dates some filthy Arab supremacist who takes over the keyboard occasionally.
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 15:41 Comments || Top||

#26  'Antiwar' ...I thought we used enough RAID the last time!
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 21:45 Comments || Top||

#27  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 22:29 Comments || Top||

#28  thiry? you're slurring your comments
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 22:35 Comments || Top||

#29  so what kinda job do you have? shouldn't you be attending those dependents? what IP?
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 22:37 Comments || Top||

#30  Get Out You Damned? Good title.

Will I say more.
Only I Know
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 11:03 Comments || Top||

#31  I do as I like. Or don't you believe in Freedom of Speech Bowelmotion??
Re posting here again I changed my mind.
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 11:23 Comments || Top||

#32  IT FUCKING MEANS I SAY WHAT I LIKE YOU SLUT'S ABORTION.
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 11:29 Comments || Top||

#33  Well that's rich coming from people who advocate the discrimination against(at least)of Palestinians etc and at worst their genocide.
A lot of you talk about muslims the way Hitler talked about jews.
A lot of people share my views on war etc I guess thats why they piss you off so much you hate not everyone being warmongerers like you
And finally what does working for the (correct term)people with intellectual disabilities have to do with anything?
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 11:40 Comments || Top||

#34  Mind your own business re my job please.
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 11:49 Comments || Top||

#35  Ex lib middled aged no (thiry something ,under 35.)
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 22:29 Comments || Top||


Bulgaria Vows Firm Stance Over Iraq Kidnapping
SOFIA 7-9-04(Reuters) - Bulgaria vowed on Friday it would not change its policies after two of its nationals were taken hostage by militants in Iraq, and identified the pair as civilian truck drivers.
"Bulgaria is a stable state with a predictable foreign policy and we cannot expect it would change its foreign policy because of one or another group," Foreign Minister Solomon Passy told state radio.
"Who do they think we are, Spain?"

State radio said the foreign ministry had identified the two hostages as civilian truck drivers. Their captors threatened on Thursday to kill them in 24 hours unless U.S.-led forces freed prisoners, Arabic satellite television Al Jazeera reported. Passy said Bulgaria had contacted the U.S. government over the demand that the United States free imprisoned Iraqis, but gave no details.
Bulgarian state radio named the two hostages as Ivailo Kepov and Georgi Lazov and said they had left for Iraq on June 19. The foreign ministry had received no demand from the hostage-takers for a pullout of Bulgarian troops, it said. Bulgaria has 470 troops in the U.S.-led force in Iraq, based in the southern city of Kerbala.
Private television channel BTV said the two drivers, working for a Bulgarian company, had unloaded cars from their trucks in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul and had been on the return journey when they were taken hostage. The hostage-taking follows a previous incident three months ago, when a Bulgarian truck driver was killed in an attack on a column of six trucks on the road from Basra to Baghdad.
Al Jazeera said the video tape came from the Tawhid and Jihad Group headed by Jordanian Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who has been accused by Washington of links to Osama bin Laden ’s al Qaeda.
If you count being the Regional Operations Director as a link.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 3:25:17 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  The jihadis will regret provoking the Bulgarians, I'd wager.
Posted by: VAMark || 07/09/2004 10:09 Comments || Top||

#2  Stand tall, Bulgaria.
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/09/2004 10:41 Comments || Top||

#3  No more Spain's.

The wrath of the Bulgarians shall fall on the enemy like a swift sword!
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 17:36 Comments || Top||

#4  Cynics will say the Bulgarians are only staying tight with the US because they know which side their bread is buttered on; I would say they have a strong instinct for self-preservation.
Posted by: jules 187 || 07/09/2004 17:50 Comments || Top||


Africa: Horn
France opposes UN Sudan sanctions
France says it does not support US plans for international sanctions on Sudan if violence continues in Darfur. The UN Security Council is debating a US draft resolution imposing sanctions on militias accused of "ethnic cleansing" against non-Arabs.
I’m so proud of my country.
The US also hinted that the sanctions could be extended to the government. Meanwhile, African leaders have urged Khartoum to stop bombing Darfur and say their proposed 300-strong force will have a mandate to protect civilians.
300? That's hardly enough to protect themselves.
US Secretary of State Colin Powell says promises to reign in the pro-government militia, known as the Janjaweed, have not been kept by Khartoum so far. "Only action not words can win the race against death in Darfur," he said. Some one million people have fled their homes and at least 10,000 have been killed in what the UN calls "the world’s worst humanitarian crisis." A rebellion broke out in Darfur early last year, when two groups took up arms, accusing the government of ignoring the region. "In Darfur, it would be better to help the Sudanese get over the crisis so their country is pacified rather than sanctions which would push them back to their misdeeds of old," junior Foreign Minister Renaud Muselier told French radio. France led opposition to US moves at the UN over Iraq. As was the case in Iraq, France also has significant oil interests in Sudan.
Mr Muselier also dismissed claims of "ethnic cleansing" or genocide in Darfur.
"I firmly believe it is a civil war and as they are little villages of 30, 40, 50, there is nothing easier than for a few armed horsemen to burn things down, to kill the men and drive out the women," he said.
If that's not a definition of ethnic cleansing I don't know what is.
Human rights activists say the Janjaweed are conducting a genocide against Darfur’s black African population. Those who have fled their homes say the Janjaweed ride on horses and camels into villages which have just been bombed by government aircraft, killing the men and raping the women. Sudan denies backing the militia and, under strong international pressure, has promised to disarm them.
Rest at link.
Posted by: Anonymous5089 || 07/09/2004 8:45:17 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  China has 'em too :-(

"In Darfur, it would be better to help the Sudanese get over the crisis so their country is pacified rather than sanctions which would push them back to their misdeeds of old"

No -- you help them get over the crisis, with sanctions as an incentive, and if they go back to their misdeeds of old, you END THEM as a nation!!1
Posted by: Edward Yee || 07/09/2004 9:40 Comments || Top||

#2  France has supported the Islamofascist Bashir/Turabi government of the Sudan ever since the military seized power in June 1989. It has provided weapons, aerial photography to pinpoint the location of rebel SPLA units, and has consistently supported the government's aims in UN forums. In return it was allowed to use Sudan to overthrow the government of Chad, has a stranglehold on the gum arabic trade, has a gold mining concession, opened a French bank, and has been granted a few other measly concessions. And the French have ignored the genocide of two million southerners, and the depradations of a government that now plans to destroy the Berti, Fur, Messalit and Zaghawa of Darfur.
Posted by: Tancred || 07/09/2004 9:52 Comments || Top||

#3  Reuters says as of last night, that France and other Euros are supporting us on this in UNSC. Opposition from Russia, China, Algeria, Pakistan, and Brazil.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 11:49 Comments || Top||

#4  Reuters says as of last night, that France and other Euros are supporting us on this in UNSC.

We'll see if what they say matches what they do-their reputation for good faith has plummeted in this neck of the woods. Watch for pledge and duck behavior as was the case with confronting Iraq.

Opposition from Russia, China, Algeria, Pakistan, and Brazil.

And that would be because...?
Posted by: jules 187 || 07/09/2004 12:27 Comments || Top||

#5  Do i have to remind anybody that french oil company TOTAL is currently awarded the LARGEST oil concession in Sudan?
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/sudan1103/5.htm#_Toc54492543
I cannot wait to see France vote FOR sanction againdt Israel s barrier....
Sometimes it's dificult to be French
Posted by: frenchfregoli || 07/09/2004 12:27 Comments || Top||

#6  sanctions! oh yeah THAT will do something.
pffft.
only thing it will do is harm the french, so of course they are against it, I don't blame them.

only reason you guys are jumping on this is cuz it involves them nasty smelling cheese eating surrender monkeys

no one really cares, just grand stand for a while and hope they all get killed off before we talk ourselves into a corner and actually have to do something

notice the support for a military force comes from africans and only africans, granted it's still more grand standing since a force of 300 is itsybitsy but it's a step towards using troops to stop what needs to be stopped so of course there is no urging from non-african leaders.

after all it's not our backyard

so what do we care?
Posted by: Dcreeper || 07/09/2004 12:55 Comments || Top||

#7  Opposition from Russia, China, Algeria, Pakistan, and Brazil.

And that would be because...?


General priniciple that ethnic cleansing is the internal affair of a sovereign state. Russia (thinking Chechnya) and China (thinking Tibet) took that stand on Kosovo. Algeria, inter-arab solidarity. Pakistan - hmm - deference to anti-US nasties in the MMA? Bilateral ties to Sudan? keeping in good graces with China? Ask Dan Darling or Paul Maloney. Im unhappy about it though. Brazil - Lula, whos not following lefty domestic policies, trying to keep lefty support by tweaking the US. And, a raising great power, identifying with Russia and China in the "absolute sovereignty" league.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 13:05 Comments || Top||

#8  I'm with Dcreeper. Sanctions are counterproductive. The kleptocrats just steal more. The people that suffer are the middle class and the poor.
Posted by: 11A5S || 07/09/2004 13:28 Comments || Top||

#9  sanctions got Libya to turn over the lockerbie hijackers, and played a role in change in South Africa. Sudan isnt Iraq. If Sudan decides losing western investment is more important than what they can gain in Darfur, they'll deal. In any case realistically you cant get UNSC support for force without trying sanctions first (BTW, at this point the sanctions on the table are aimed at the militias only, not the govt)

Theoretically the West and the Africans could go in without UNSC support, if Russia and China veto - precedent of Kosovo.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 13:58 Comments || Top||

#10  Theoretically?
that's like saying theoretically I can live without this zit on my butt. Cuz, ye know, theoretically it's pretty accurate, but the cold hard reality is that I'm a lot better off if there was no zit at all..
UNSC is really the CSEBPAWBA
(Council for the Support and Encouragement of Bad People Around the World and Back Again)
but I guess CSEBPAWBA is a little unwieldy so unsc will have to do..

kosovo supports my argument more than yours..
(foot dragging until cornered (damn!) and then actually having to do something, even then we kept our soldiers out of it (screw the crying peasants, they can’t vote for me!) and just used our bombers)

Libya is a unique place, if Sudan had gone to past us enemies and asked about how we treat them then made attempts at gaining our friendship then I would say you point is valid and on target. But sudan did not do that.. in actuality it's run by some nasty folks who just don't give a damn about our ‘moral’ opinion or our pathetic economic threats, they have christans to torture/slaughter.

and we DON’T CARE!
Not even a little.
Posted by: Dcreeper || 07/09/2004 14:13 Comments || Top||

#11  DC - are you aware that Sudan DID cut a deal with the Christians in South Sudan - the victims in Darfur are MUSLIMS (but blacks, not arabs)
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 14:15 Comments || Top||

#12  France is trying to set up an identical situation to the one they had going with Saddam and again, major oil contracts are involved.
Sanctions, as we've now learned, don't do much to deter a rogue regime from pursuing terror and we end up with a corrupt situation like the Oil-for-Palaces mess in Iraq.
But, as Lh said, it's a starting point.
I doubt what's-his-face (the IslamoNazi scum who rules Sudan and who was Osama's former host--Don't forget!) will care.
Darfur needs the business end of a few M-16s, wielded by some select Special Forces, SEALs and Marines.
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 14:17 Comments || Top||

#13  Wow. Just so I understand this-the general principle is that if it happens within a country's borders, they should deal/not deal with it how they choose; if not, none of our business? Ethnic cleansing?!?! Sorry, rubber-stamping racial extermination in the 21st century is not the stand I want to take, no matter whose government gets offended.

Was this principle in play during WWII, for Jews, Poles, and Romanii (I realize "home country" is more problematic with Romanii)? So, which countries avoided action in WWII (or any war since) using this principle?
How does that old saying go-First they came for the Jews and I said nothing...Then they came for...
Posted by: jules 187 || 07/09/2004 14:22 Comments || Top||

#14  Dcreeper-I am just one person with little power to change things, and perhaps it makes no difference, but I do care whether people are being killed in Darfur.
Posted by: jules 187 || 07/09/2004 14:28 Comments || Top||

#15  As was the case in Iraq, France also has significant oil interests in Sudan.

'Nuff said. Methinks France has outlived its usefulness.
Posted by: Zenster || 07/09/2004 15:59 Comments || Top||

#16  jules - NO country entered WW2 for the Jews, Romani, etc. UK and France entered for Poland - but that was because Poland, a sovereign state was invaded. USSR went to war only when they were invaded by Germany. US went to war when Peal Harbor was attacked. Germany declared war on US - FDR might have managed a DOW on Germany anyway, but it would have been based on violation of neutral rights, not genocide.

In the last couple of decades the notion that genocide is a casus belli, when genocide is actively occuring and an intervention could stop it, has been floating around. Didnt apply directly in Somalia, where there was no real state to oppose intervention. Nor in Bosnia, where Bosnia asked for intervention. Might have applied in Rwanda, except nothing was done.

The first real application of the doctrine was Kosovo. But recall, intervention in Kosovo was vetoed by Russia and China. NATO went ahead ANYWAY.

Sudan would be the second case of this principle.
The US,UK and Germany have been the principle advocates, Russia and China the principle opponents, and France is in between, IIUC (they did NOT veto NATO action in Kosovo, but were drawn along reluctantly)
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 16:11 Comments || Top||

#17  Thanks, LH, for the thoughtful and info-rich response.

I would insist that times are changing and that we have a human obligation to stop genocide everywhere if I had any reason to believe that we wouldn't be the only country in the world doing so. How depressing.

Posted by: jules 187 || 07/09/2004 16:22 Comments || Top||

#18  As with WWII, so the causus belli is the same for all wars, which is that masses of innocents are being slaughtered by a murdering horde.
We got into WWII against both Germany and Japan because they were killing thousands...of Americans, of Chinese, of Polish, of Dutch, of Sudetendeutsch, etc,etc.etc.
It's only with our recent Western obsession with "multinational" Tranzi diplospeak that we've become enamored of throwing around the term "ethnic cleansing" and genocide and Leftists like Clinton have made us comfortable with it.
This civil war in Sudan has been going on for 20 years (IIRC) and yes, it's waged by the Islamist government--Bin Laden's old pal--against Christians and animists in the south of the country.
The UN has brokered "definitive" peace agreements with Sudan before and yet the war continues.
Even calling it "ethnic cleansing" doesn't sway the French (as it didn't in Kosovo's case either) because they're in the exact situation they were in with Saddam's Iraq: Sudan is their client state and they sell them all their weapons in exchange for Sudan and Chad providing TotalFinaElf with all the best oil contracts.
When are we gonna get the Frogs off of the UNSC???
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 16:32 Comments || Top||

#19  IIRC, this war is between the Arab Muslims and Black Muslims in the south (as LH mentioned)? I say we stay out and make the UN do their f*cking job for a change. We don't need to send anymore of my bro's anywhere except to keep Iraq & Afghanistan on course. I know some people are going to think that's cold - I don't care. The UN and the African nations can step up to the plate for this one.
Posted by: Jarhead || 07/09/2004 16:54 Comments || Top||

#20  The UN and the African nations can step up to the plate for this one.

Jarhead, they won't. Mixed in with the Black Muslims in the south are just far too many animists and Christians. The UN sure wouldn't want to offend the Arab Muslims by keeping those kind from being killed. See story at this link.

I think every country that harbors or promote Islamofascism needs to be dismantled. Unless that is done, the roots will bring us right back to where we are now. This WOT is going to be a long, hard slog.
Posted by: cingold || 07/09/2004 17:23 Comments || Top||

#21  Christians are commonly discriminated against in the workplace and rarely receive promotions.

Coming soon to a culture near you, if we don't insist on adoption of our cultural norms and laws by immigrants.
Posted by: jules 187 || 07/09/2004 17:32 Comments || Top||

#22  "Jarhead, they won't."

-then that's life in the big city bro'. The WoT for us Marines involves whooping the dog sh*t out of those countries who promote or harbor terrorists that threaten the U.S. If this is a Sudanese/muslim clusterf*ck that does not involve planning or staging attacks on Americans - then f*ck'em, we don't need to get involved. That's the cold hard truth of my feelings. Of course the CnC can send us wherever he wants to do meals on wheels or peace enforcing if deems fit - I don't see this one as being a good one for us to do at this time. Our country & especially its military have bigger fish to fry and already enough on our plate - i.e. Iraq, Afghanland, Iran, Nkor etc.
Posted by: Jarhead || 07/09/2004 17:36 Comments || Top||

#23  Jar, I hate like hell that you guys have to go anywhere to sort out these awful messes and I'm not saying that we need to send Marines to Darfur yet, but...
this is linked with AlQ's worldwide jihad, I'm convinced and OBL's made Sudan his HQ before.
The problem is with the Sudanese government which is the sponsor of all this jihadi mayhem.
We don't have Clinton as Prez anymore (Praise Jesus!) who would send you to sort out a "humanitarian problem" and not deal with the real trouble, which are the Islamist terrorist instigators and sponsors in Khartoum, same as in Mogadishu.
We need to send the message out around the world that jihadi murder won't be tolerated anywhere but I'm perfectly willing to let the African forces and the UN sort it out first, if they can.
Given Jacques's opposition as a member of the UNSC, though, how likely is it that the UN will intervene and how much can the blue helmets accomplish?
I'm not optimistic.
Posted by: Jen || 07/09/2004 18:04 Comments || Top||

#24  The WoT for us Marines involves whooping the dog sh*t out of those countries who promote or harbor terrorists that threaten the U.S.

Amen, and thank you. I trust Bush to not send you out under the baby blue helmets of the UN -- but not Kerry. Still, I fear that there are a bunch more countries out there (not just Afghanistan, Iraq, ect.) that promote or harbor terrorists and threaten the U.S.
Posted by: cingold || 07/09/2004 19:20 Comments || Top||

#25  Jen> I'm sure you're right that there AlQ training going on in Sudan to a degree & I'm not against sending in CIA operatives & black ops guys for that mission. We should also be doing human intel collection and selective elimination of any local sudanese sh*theads we deem need exterminating. Heck, we should be diong that imo (if we're not already) in Pakistan, Iran, NKor, and Syria as well. I just don't want any more boots on the ground anywhere else but where we're at right now. Let's finish the Iraq/Afghan thing the right way then we can shift the "eye of mordor" on other douchebag countries. BTW- If I was Prez I'd push to repeal the ban on targeting foreign leaders for assassination (think about the message that would send) - but that's a whole other debate.

Cingold> you're right, there are plenty of countries that need a big can of ass whoop let open on them as per my above statement. My strategy is doing it in increments and in a 100% thorough anal retentive style. I.E.- let's whack the alligators that are closest to the boat that we have the troop strength for, no need to rush headfirst with a regiment of Marines yet into Darfur - though I'm sure clipping rag heads on camel back from 300 yards out would put a smile on most 19 yr old jarheads.
Posted by: Jarhead || 07/09/2004 20:48 Comments || Top||

#26  Jarhead in 2008 ! I like your plans . . . : )
Posted by: cingold || 07/09/2004 20:51 Comments || Top||

#27  thanks Cingold, I actually do plan on going into politics, but that won't be until 2017, when I'm retired and bored of hunting (deer not ragheads) :)
Posted by: Jarhead || 07/09/2004 21:02 Comments || Top||

#28  "As was the case in Iraq, France also has significant oil interests in Sudan"

Does anything else need to be said in relation to Chirac's neo-Islamic Republic of France?
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 22:43 Comments || Top||

#29  How can anybody be surprised at the depths France stoops to. They've always been the turd of international relations, nothings changed.

Agree with Jen and Jarhead: black ops is needed yes!!!! and probably already being sent where they are most needed without our knowledge.
Posted by: Anon1 || 07/10/2004 0:34 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan/South Asia
Taliban leader on the line
Mullah Omar, the one-eyed Taliban leader who has eluded capture for three years, has been contacted by Afghan intelligence agents on a satellite phone carried by a captured aide. The brief conversation ended abruptly when Omar appeared to become suspicious and disconnected the call. He has ignored follow-up attempts to contact him.
"What the heck is wrong with the sat phone, Mahmoud? Everytime I try to call Omar I get a busy signal!"
Omar, who recently told an interviewer that al-Qa’eda and Taliban figures maintained communication by "traditional" means, is believed to change his whereabouts frequently.
He also changes glass eyes frequently just to fool onlookers.
Abdullah Laghmanai, the intelligence chief in the southern province of Kandahar, said contact was made after agents seized two senior Taliban commanders on Tuesday. Omar’s number and those of other leading members of his former regime were contained in the phone taken from one of the aides, Mullah Mujahed. When Mujahed was ordered to speak to his boss, he said: "Salam-aleikum [Peace be upon you], where are you?" "He realised it was not his man [and] cut off the phone," said Mr Laghmanai.
"Did you order the large with sausage and extra goat cheese?"
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 12:57:45 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1 

Line up the double decker buses... Omar's back.
Posted by: Howard UK || 07/09/2004 4:30 Comments || Top||

#2  Afghan Intel didn't think to let us in on this? We could have traced the call and nabbed him!
Posted by: Charles || 07/09/2004 5:56 Comments || Top||

#3  Ummmmm....yeah...is Dick Hertz from Holden there? Hehehehehehehehhehehehehe....
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/09/2004 8:12 Comments || Top||

#4  is there a Homer there? Homer.....Sexual

(/Bart Simpson)
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 8:43 Comments || Top||

#5  Is there a Mr. Faqr there? First name, Kamal?
Posted by: BH || 07/09/2004 9:49 Comments || Top||

#6  Here's a link to all of Bart's prank phone calls:



Here's the URL also: http://www.snpp.com/guides/moe_calls.html.

I have been having trouble posting links lately.
Posted by: Tibor || 07/09/2004 11:05 Comments || Top||

#7  You must be calling for Ms. Hugnkiss, first name: Amanda. I need Amanda Hugnkiss in these caves. It's soooooo lonely out here!
Posted by: BA || 07/09/2004 11:15 Comments || Top||

#8  He also changes glass eyes frequently just to fool onlookers.

"Er, why do have one brown and one blue eye???"
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 07/09/2004 11:40 Comments || Top||

#9  Who does this guy think he is, Evel Knievel?
Posted by: Raj || 07/09/2004 12:05 Comments || Top||

#10  Hot Rod Mullah
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 21:10 Comments || Top||


Musharraf's Tattered Iron Curtain
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 00:47 || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Good posting.
Most recently, Marc Sageman, a former CIA case officer, has found through extensive background studies of known Al-Qaeda operatives that most Islamic terrorists are, according to a Knight-Ridder report, "well-educated, married men from middle- or upper-class families, in their mid-20s and psychologically stable … Many of them knew several languages and traveled widely." ...The reality is that educated people who begin to get serious about their Islamic faith all too often turn to terrorism because they are taught that acts of violence against unbelievers is part of their religious responsibility.
This is worrisome because the educated Muslim who turns to terrorism can be living in the USA leading a normal life and then go off the deep end.
Posted by: rex || 07/09/2004 4:06 Comments || Top||

#2  Rex, I firmly believe many of the educated Muslims have been doing that since the very early 1980's awaiting orders.

In the 20 something year span they have also been absorbing our vulnerabilities and with each trip back and forth to their 'normal' places of employment, future potential targets of terrorism are duly noted.

I feel the main reason why the U.S. has not suffered another major Islamic rooted terrorist attack is, 9-11 caught our national security agencies so off guard, the feds they are monitoring anyone who might be a future jihadists so they do not look like fools again. Plus the fact the feds have uncovered numerous plots which would have inflicted monstrous civilian deaths, which are not reported to the press, continuing to keep the public safe from the insanity of the international cult of death.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 4:23 Comments || Top||


Tribesmen vow further violence
Kaloosha (South Waziristan) – “Pakistan created the Kashmir insurgency for India, we will turn South Waziristan into a Kashmir for Pakistan,” vowed a local Al Qaeda militant, who identified himself as a disciple of Nek Mohammad. “We will avenge his brutal murder,” said another. All of them had congregated to condole the June 9 killing of Nek Mohammad. Also sitting by them was Haji Mohammad Omar, Mohammad’s successor. TFT’s Talib contact said it was still a no-go area for outsiders. This is the place where the Uzbek leader Tahir Yuladeshev had been cornered in the house of Noorul Islam on March 15. Tahir is still at large, but many of his followers are still around. That is the sense one gets from conversations with the Ahmedzai Wazir tribesmen. TFT encountered similar situations in Azam Warsak and on the way to Bagar, where the army has recently conducted operations against terrorists. The anti-establishment fever was quite high in the Azam Warsak bazaar and it was difficult to stay there for too long.

For obvious reasons, not many local tribesmen wanted to talk or show the home hospitality for which Pashtun are famous. Those who do talk deny having any links with radicals. However, all of them mount a perfect defence of Al Qaeda and Taliban elements. “If the rulers bring upon their own Muslim people the misery that the Israelis and Americans have imposed on innocent Palestinians and Iraqis, no God-fearing Muslim would hesitate in picking up the gun,” said Abdullah, a stout and wild-looking Waziri tribesman. Even Ameer Rehman, an educated lower-middle class political activist, who associates himself with the Awami National Party (ANP) ideology, had this to say when asked about foreigners the government believes are hiding in the area: “I have never seen foreigners here, some may be there but how can you connect them with every act of violence without any proof.” He blames the current situation on what he calls the mullah, military and malik Alliance (MMMA) adamantly wants to stick to the status quo, the century-old system devised by the British. Rehman also believes that the MMMA had been instrumental in the support to the Afghan mujahideen and subsequently the Taliban.

The current situation in South Waziristan offers multiple reasons to presume that the hide and seek between Al Qaeda militants and the security forces is not likely to end very soon. The followers of Nek Mohammad, who by implication are now wedded to the cause of Al Qaeda, remain steadfast in their anti-US mission. For them anyone who directly or indirectly helped the Americans in “unleashing the unholy war on Taliban” deserves a befitting reply. The message is: We will go down fighting and not surrender. The presence of such committed carefree people within the region is a source of fear and reprisals. The majority of Ahmedzai Wazir and Mesood tribesmen live in a conscious state of denial as far as foreign Al Qaeda cadres are concerned. Privately, they relish the resistance Arab, Chechen, Uzbek, Uighur Muslims, and foreign-origin Americans are putting up. But none dares either to concede their presence or criticize them.

But the blockade and the heavy armed forces’ presence have combined to breed unusual sense of resentment, with the die-hard tribesmen – essentially the ideological partners of Al Qaeda – ready to face anything. Come what may, we will surrender our guests over our dead bodies, reads the message. But the most dangerous development relates to the fears of a spill-over of the conflict into major Pakistani cities. The Karachi police would have us believe that the people involved in the attack on the Karachi corps commander have been busted. That may be true but the danger is not over. The tribesmen are convinced that the Pakistani government is the US partner in unleashing violence on them so they must stand up to it. And even if they might be bluffing when they vow to turn Waziristan into Kashmir for Pakistan, the determination is potent and the danger real.
Posted by: Paul Moloney || 07/09/2004 12:40:01 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  They will all die.
Posted by: Halfass Pete || 07/09/2004 2:55 Comments || Top||

#2  You have to figure that if a nuke ever goes off in the US, South Waziristan will become an ashtray.
Posted by: remote man || 07/09/2004 13:17 Comments || Top||


The deepening crisis in Balochistan
EFL
In the latest round of violence and sabotage, one of the major natural gas pipelines was blown up near the town of Ouch close to southern Punjab’s Bhawalpur district bordering on the south-western Pakistani province of Balochistan. Although nobody has yet accepted responsibility for the disrupting attack and investigations are underway, this incident follows a series of bomb blasts, waves of rocket attacks and targeting of key government and military installations in Balochistan where a low level insurgency for the last two years might now be threatening to enter a heightened phase. The events in Balochistan signify the intensification of a political crisis there.

With a territory of more than 300,000 sq km, the dry, desolate and mountainous Balochistan has a population of up to seven million. Inhabited by mostly tribal ethnic groups such as the Baloch, the Brahuis and the Pashtuns, Balochistan is one of the most heterogeneous regions of Pakistan. It is home to some eight ethnic groups while 10 different languages or dialects are spoken here. The major bone of contention between the government and the Baloch nationalists has been the development of the Gwadar deep-sea port in southern Pakistan on the Arabian Sea shore. The post is being constructed with Chinese assistance. While the establishment sees it as a much-needed mega development project with a potential to transform the country’s economy as it is expected to become the main seaport catering for the needs of the landlocked Afghanistan and Central Asian states, the Baloch fear the swift demographic changes accompanying the development of such a port will convert them into a minority in their own historic homeland. In the larger picture, Gwadar is a part of the longstanding Baloch nationalist demands, which centre on greater provincial autonomy, increased share in the vast natural resources of their province including well-established natural gas reservoirs, gold and copper mines, mineral resources and potential huge petroleum reserves.

Over the past two months Balochistan has witnessed much violence often claimed by a little known group, the Baloch Liberation Army. In a late night attack on June 19 the part of the Sui airport building was blown up. On June 2 a landmine blew up a paramilitary jeep wounding five soldiers near the Uch gas field some 400 km southwest of Quetta. In another rocket attack on the FC fort in Kohlu, the administrative headquarters of Marri tribal region, at least one soldier was killed on June 29. Earlier, in May, three Chinese construction workers were killed in a bomb attack in Gwadar. Although Baloch nationalists deny any involvement in such militant activities, they point at their grievances and maintain that popular discontent can fuel large-scale instability. ”The feeling of being exploited has recently grown to an extent that people are resorting to violence,” Sanaullah Baloch said. In recent developments more than a dozen Baloch nationalist political groups have merged into four principal political parties representing different tribes and regions within the province. Most of the Marris are with Haqthawar led by Sardar Khair Baksh Marri, who led a five-year-long insurgency against the Pakistani military in 1970s. Another powerful tribal leader Nawab Akbar Bugti leads his Jamhoori Watan Party and is in alliance with the Brahui tribal chieftain Attaullah Mengal who heads the Balochistan National Party. The non-tribal Baloch in the coastal regions are united under the National Party of Dr. Abdul Hayee Baloch. All these political parties have closed ranks on the contentious issues. They are planning to hold a joint conference on August 1 to protest for their rights.

According to Fazl-e Rahim Marwat, a regional expert at Peshawar University’s Pakistan Studies Centre, Balochistan has been the country’s backwater for a long time. He says it is high time to focus and address the pressing development and political issues in the impoverished region. “Formation of an independent commission to assess that demands of Balochistan’s population will be the first step in the right direction,” he told TFT. “Balochistan needs a healing touch,” Marwat added.
Posted by: Paul Moloney || 07/09/2004 12:26:32 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Iraq-Jordan
Guard to Play Bigger Role in Iraq Rotation
WASHINGTON (AP) - Citizen soldiers of the Army National Guard, which has suffered increasing casualties in Iraq in recent months, will assume a notably more prominent role in the next rotation of U.S. combat forces into Iraq beginning late this year, officials said Thursday.

The number of National Guard brigades in Iraq will grow from three to five, and for the first time in Iraq a National Guard division headquarters will command active-duty brigades. Under the command of the 42nd Infantry Division of the New York Army National Guard will be two brigades of the active duty 3rd Infantry Division as well as the 256th Infantry Brigade of the Louisiana National Guard.

Overall, National Guard and Reserve forces will make up 42 percent of the total force in Iraq, the director of operations for the Joint Staff, Lt. Gen. Norton Schwartz, told Congress on Wednesday. That compares with a 39 percent share presently and 25 percent last year, he said. There are a total of about 140,000 U.S. forces now in Iraq, and about 130,000 are scheduled for the next rotation, Schwartz said.

Some active-duty units scheduled to rotate into Iraq over the coming few months have already served there. They include the 3rd Infantry Division, which helped spearhead the March 2003 invasion and then returned to its bases in Georgia last summer, and the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, from Fort Carson, Colo., which is scheduled to go back in February.

The National Guard units scheduled to go are: 256th Infantry Brigade, Louisiana; 155th Armored Brigade, Mississippi; 116th Cavalry Brigade, Idaho, which currently is training at Fort Bliss, Texas; 278th Armored Cavalry Regiment, Tennessee, which is scheduled to enter Iraq in November; 29th Infantry Brigade, Hawaii; Headquarters, 42nd Infantry Division, New York. All are expected to serve one-year tours in Iraq.
Posted by: Steve White || 07/09/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:


Afghanistan/South Asia
LJ training boomer babes
Police sources say investigators have found evidence that the LJ is planning to use teenage girls for suicide attacks. The targets would be Shia mosques and also senior government officers, especially police officers. Karachi police has told all officers belonging to the provincial and federal government departments to take precautions and avoid coming into contact with burqa-clad women. The female suicide bombers, say sources, are likely to target officers by approaching them for the solution of their fake problems. “These women are dangerous and can kill anyone for a cause in which they have a blind faith,” a senior investigator told TFT.

The two girls the police is looking for belong to the same bunch of suicide bombers that the LJ is supposed to have trained and indoctrinated. “We don’t know the exact number of such human bombs but at least two of them are in our reach now,” one investigator told TFT. A senior police officer expressed the hope that the police will be able to bust the others after capturing these two girls, said to be sisters. The provincial home department has already prepared a contingency plan for the safety of senior government and police officers and has sent it to the respective departments. The main feature of the plan is not to allow any woman, veiled in particular, to meet senior officers without having her frisked by female guards especially deputed for this purpose.

On the Jundallah front, the police have arrested Doctor Akmal Waheed and his brother Dr Arshad on the suspicion that they were part of the plot to attack the corps commander Karachi’s convoy and also treated Qasim, one of the attackers, who was injured during the shootout with the soldiers. The investigators also suspects links of the two doctors with Nek Mohammad, who was killed by the army last month during an operation in South Waziristan. The police say Jundallah activists were in Wana until last November where they got the training for mounting terror attacks and returned to Karachi only seven to eight months ago. Their first attack was on the Holy Trinity Church on January 15 in which around 40 people were injured. Later, they attacked a Rangers’ van killing one Rangers’ jawan. Their next target was the Gulistan-e-Jauhar police station where they killed five policemen. Police showed the arrest of Waheed, a renowned heart specialist and his brother Dr Arshad, an orthopaedic surgeon on Friday, after the duo went missing on June 17. The family and various doctors’ organisations had blamed the intelligence agencies for taking them in custody. An anti-terrorism court remanded them in police custody until July 18. “Their interrogation may lead to the arrest of Kashif and Mohammad’s brother and some other militants, who might be hiding in Wana,” an investigator says. Investigators are questioning the two doctors about the ‘doctor’s network’ and their organisation Pakistan Islamic Medical Association, PIMA. “We strongly suspect that there is a team of doctors with links to the militants,” says an investigator.
Posted by: Paul Moloney || 07/09/2004 12:13:31 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:


Iraq-Jordan
20,000 hard boyz in Iraqi insurgency
The Iraq insurgency is far larger than the 5,000 guerrillas previously thought to be at its core, U.S. military officials say, and it’s being led by well-armed Iraqi Sunnis angry at being pushed from power alongside Saddam Hussein. Although U.S. military analysts disagree over the exact size, dozens of regional cells, often led by tribal sheiks and inspired by Sunni Muslim imams, can call upon part-time fighters to boost forces to as high as 20,000 — an estimate reflected in the insurgency’s continued strength after U.S. forces killed as many as 4,000 in April alone. And some insurgents are highly specialized — one Baghdad cell, for instance, has two leaders, one assassin, and two groups of bomb-makers.

The developing intelligence picture of the insurgency contrasts with the commonly stated view in the Bush administration that the fighting is fueled by foreign warriors intent on creating an Islamic state. "We’re not at the forefront of a jihadist war here," said a U.S. military official in Baghdad, speaking on condition of anonymity. The official and others told The Associated Press the guerrillas have enough popular support among nationalist Iraqis angered by the presence of U.S. troops that they cannot be militarily defeated. The military official, who has logged thousands of miles driving around Iraq to meet with insurgents or their representatives, said a skillful Iraqi government could co-opt some of the guerrillas and reconcile with the leaders instead of fighting them. "I generally like a lot of these guys," he said. "We know who the key people are in all the different cities, and generally how they operate. The problem is getting actionable information so you can either attack them, arrest them or engage them."

Even as Iraqi leaders wrangle over the contentious issue of offering a broad amnesty to guerrilla fighters, the new Iraqi military and intelligence corps have begun gathering and sharing information on the insurgents with the U.S. military, providing a sharper picture of a complex insurgency. "Nobody knows about Iraqis and all the subtleties in culture, appearance, religion and so forth better than Iraqis themselves," said U.S. Army Lt. Col. Daniel Baggio, a military spokesman at Multinational Corps headquarters in Baghdad. "We’re very optimistic about the Iraqis’ use of their own human intelligence to help root out these insurgents." The intelligence boost has allowed American pilots to bomb suspected insurgent safe houses over the past two weeks, with Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi saying Iraqis supplied information for at least one of those airstrikes. But the better view of the insurgency also contradicts much of the popular wisdom about it.

Estimates of the insurgents’ manpower tend to be too low. Last week, a former coalition official said 4,000 to 5,000 Baathists form the core of the insurgency, with other attacks committed by a couple hundred supporters of Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and hundreds of other foreign fighters. Anthony Cordesman, an Iraq analyst with the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said the figure of 5,000 insurgents "was never more than a wag and is now clearly ridiculous. Part-timers are difficult to count, but almost all insurgent movements depend on cadres that are part-time and that can blend back into the population."

U.S. military analysts disagree over the size of the insurgency, with estimates running as high as 20,000 fighters when part-timers are added. Ahmed Hashim, a professor at the U.S. Naval War College, said the higher numbers squared with his findings in a study of the insurgency completed in Iraq. One hint that the number is larger is the sheer volume of suspected insurgents — 22,000 — who have cycled through U.S.-run prisons. Most have been released. And in April alone, U.S. forces killed as many as 4,000 people, the military official said, including Sunni insurgents and Shiite militiamen fighting under the banner of a radical cleric. There has been no letup in attacks. On Thursday, insurgents detonated a car bomb and then attacked a military headquarters in Samarra, a center of resistance 60 miles north of the capital, killing five U.S. soldiers and one Iraqi guardsman. Guerrilla leaders come from various corners of Saddam’s Baath Party, including lawyers’ groups, prominent families and especially from his Military Bureau, an internal security arm used to purge enemies. They’ve formed dozens of cells.

U.S. military documents obtained by AP show a guerrilla band mounting attacks in Baghdad that consists of two leaders, four sub-leaders and 30 members, broken down by activity. There is a pair of financiers, two cells of car bomb-builders, an assassin, separate teams launching mortar and rocket attacks, and others handling roadside bombs and ambushes. Most of the insurgents are fighting for a bigger role in a secular society, not a Taliban-like Islamic state, the military official said. Almost all the guerrillas are Iraqis, even those launching some of the devastating car bombings normally blamed on foreigners — usually al-Zarqawi. The official said many car bombings bore the "tradecraft" of Saddam’s former secret police and were aimed at intimidating Iraq’s new security services.

Many in the U.S. intelligence community have been making similar points, but have encountered political opposition from the Bush administration, a State Department official in Washington said, also speaking on condition of anonymity. Civilian analysts generally agreed, saying U.S. and Iraqi officials have long overemphasized the roles of foreign fighters and Muslim extremists. Such positions support the Bush administration’s view that the insurgency is linked to the war on terror. A closer examination paints most insurgents as secular Iraqis angry at the presence of U.S. and other foreign troops. "Too much U.S. analysis is fixated on terms like ’jihadist,’ just as it almost mindlessly tries to tie everything to (Osama) bin Laden," Cordesman said. "Every public opinion poll in Iraq ... supports the nationalist character of what is happening." Many guerrillas are motivated by Islam in the same way religion motivates American soldiers, who also tend to pray more when they’re at war, the U.S. military official said. He said he met Tuesday with four tribal sheiks from Ramadi who "made very clear" that they had no desire for an Islamic state, even though mosques are used as insurgent sanctuaries and funding centers. "’We’re not a bunch of Talibans,’" he paraphrased the sheiks as saying.

At the orders of Gen. John Abizaid, the U.S. commander of Mideast operations, Army analysts looked closely for evidence that Iraq’s insurgency was adopting extreme Islamist goals, the official said. Analysts learned that ridding Iraq of U.S. troops was the motivator for most insurgents, not the formation of an Islamic state. The officer said Iraq’s insurgents have a big advantage over guerrillas elsewhere: plenty of arms, money, and training. Iraq’s lack of a national identity card system — and guerrillas’ refusal to plan attacks by easily intercepted telephone calls — makes them difficult to track. "They have learned a great deal over the last year, and with far more continuity than the rotating U.S. forces and Iraqi security forces," Cordesman said of the guerrillas. "They have learned to react very quickly and in ways our sensors and standard tactics cannot easily deal with."
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/09/2004 10:26:10 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  All the straw men are here, marching smartly in a row (we even get a State Dept. source warning of -- drum roll -- politicized intelligence!!!). The picture presented doesn't contrast in the slightest with the bulk of administration statements on this issue for over a year. At every point it's been pointed out how we lack a clear picture of the enemy, that there are several factions involved, and I can't recall a single time anyone has suggested that Ba'athist dead-enders seek an Islamic state.

Cordesman has slipped from being a dull but reliable source of overly detailed battle of order info on Gulf countries to a reliable source of stupid comments on Iraq. Funny how his "secular Iraqis angry at the presence of US troops" only seem to frequently commit violence in a few, uh, Sunni areas. Tony uses the term "mindless" without foundation, but hey thanks for bringing it up, since that's the only description for his statement that polling shows "nationalist" motivations behind insurgent attacks. So people in Nasiriyah bitch about not enough electricity and not being made rich and happy in one year by the magical Americans -- and this shows up in polls -- and this has f***-all to do with 20 losers up in Ramadi setting up an IED because they want their old privileged jobs back or because they're getting $100 an operation? And this is "nationalism"?

So I guess the new definition of "nationalist" is a member of a privileged, often blood-soaked minority favored and enriched by a recently deposed genocidal despotism who a year ago was torturing and killing his countrymen for kicks and is now killing foreign soldiers who spoiled his little picnic for cash. C'mon Tony, don't hold back -- just go ahead and call them idealistic "agrarian reformers"! A member of a minority that has raped and slaughtered his country for decades seeking a return to that happy condition is a "nationalist"? Go peddle that line in Kurdistan, the south, or even many Sunni areas of B'dad, pal.

I guess that Syrian whose car-bombing was pre-empted last fall wasn't a foreigner, neither were the victims in the last 3 Fallujah strikes, even though locals described them as foreigners. Nope, nothing to see here, move along.

Meanwhile, who's the "military official"? He actually said that "most of the insurgents are fighting for a bigger role in a secular society"? Wow. What an idiotic thought to hold. If they want a role, there are some elections coming. Oh wait, they want to ensure their dominance -- even though they're a minority, and deeply stained by mass murder and atrocities against their countrymen -- so hey, they need to attack US troops and blow up police stations. Sounds reasonable. Heck, no -- it even sounds "nationalistic", that's it!

So the "many in the US intelligence community" who have been completely wrong so far now have new wisdom to share. Remember how we only had a limited time to make everything dandy in Iraq, or all hell would break loose? Or how the Shi'a were bound to join the insurgency. Good calls, guys.

Tony should just get over it -- his pre-9/11 MidEast is gone forever. And his desperate hope, shared by many at State and some apparently still weighing down the intel community, that Iraq's tainted Sunni minority can rescue genocidal gangsterism posing as "nationalism" or pan-Arabism, is as forlorn as it is repugnant.

Hey, it's called "RANTburg", right?
Posted by: Verlaine || 07/09/2004 1:14 Comments || Top||

#2  Bravo, Verlaine!
Posted by: ed || 07/09/2004 2:07 Comments || Top||

#3  "Bigger role" == share in a tyranny
Posted by: someone || 07/09/2004 3:26 Comments || Top||

#4  But, #1, apart from your dislike of the biased style of writing used by the AP writer, what do you think of the content of the article?
a. do you think the numbers of fighters in Iraq have been low-balled by the Admin?
b. do you think the fighters are mainly Iraqis or not?
Posted by: rex || 07/09/2004 3:41 Comments || Top||

#5  after U.S. forces killed as many as 4,000 in April alone.

Action speaks louder than rhetoric. Seems like Coalition is extremely successfull.
Posted by: john || 07/09/2004 8:36 Comments || Top||

#6  I think I'm getting tired of outrageous articles based primarily on anonymous sourcing and out-of-the-loop, out-of-the-theatre, ax-to-grind think tank wonks.

I suppose it depends on whether those documents the AP writer claims to have are real, or if he's blowing smoke. Dan, are they real?
Posted by: Mitch H. || 07/09/2004 8:47 Comments || Top||

#7  rex, I ridiculed the content at some length (perhaps too much); I didn't really get into the AP distortion -- I focused on the glib and implausible b.s. offered up by Cordesman and the anonymous officials.

a. I don't recall any estimates being characterized as much more than WAGs by anyone. I specifically recall Abizaid's original 5,000 statement -- it was not presented as a firm and surely known thing. And I don't remember the number issue ever being discussed without mention of uncertainty. In fact, wasn't there a fairly weak attempt at a negative article in just the last week whose main point was "we don't know a lot about insurgents"? Cordesman's only good point is that numbers in such situations are fluid.

b. Of course they're mostly Iraqis. We've clearly believed so all along, as our possibly ill-advised attempts at engagement through reconstruction in the Triangle, have demonstrated. The "hearts and minds" stuff sure isn't directed at foreign fighters. But the Iraqis in question were either directly involved in a Hitlerian regime of mass murder and repression (not to mention theft), or would like in on some of that action in the future, and who correctly view the US as the enemy that spoiled all their fun. I'm sure there are also those whose idea of "nationalism" consists of shooting at foreigners, or anyone not from their town or region. Apparently there are also some wahhabi elements, esp. in/around Fallujah, who sort of easily share most of the aforementioned "goals" but also bring along their wacky religious baggage, and find foreign Sunni jihadis quite compatible.

And then there's the underlying fear of the Kurds and Shi'a. A fear that extends, in some ways, to people like Cordesman and others quoted in the article, in all likelihood. The attachment to the status quo ante 9/11 + George Bush, i.e. Sunni autocracies from Cairo to Riyadh who more or less toed the lines we really cared about at the time, while we appeased them with a charade of peace-making for the Palestinians, probably explains a lot of the relentless opposition to US action from Tony and others. A Shi'a- and Kurd-dominated Iraq steps on nerves in most of the Arab world that aren't openly discussed.

But in addition to Iraqis, and very importantly, there are foreign jihadis, plus Iranian agents or proxies perhaps provided by Hezbollah. Don't forget the Chechens whose ambush expertise and sniper services account for a lot of American blood. Take away the foreign element and you take away a lot of pipeline attacks, the biggest car bombings and assassinations, and many of the US deaths -- these are not a trivial part of the "bad news" in the last year.

The motivations of the Iraqi elements aren't important other than in helping determine how to co-opt or defeat them. This will be an Iraqi job in the end.

In the end it's a civil war for the Iraqis to finish. We're the hammer in the short term.
Posted by: Verlaine || 07/09/2004 9:17 Comments || Top||

#8  The money needed by the Baathoterrorists and Jihaditerrorists is fairly significant.

I wonder if they are getting any serious money from US antiwar types.
Posted by: mhw || 07/09/2004 9:56 Comments || Top||

#9  nah, just moral aid and comfort and propaganda
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 10:20 Comments || Top||

#10  Verlaine - a truely magnificent pair of comments. While some of what you say was floating around in my head when i read this article, you have synthesized things well.

Its comments like these that make it worth wading through some of the trash here.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 10:22 Comments || Top||

#11  problems i have with the 20,000 number -
1. does it include the Sadrists? If so, given both the ambiguous political position of Sadr, and the relatively poor fighting skills of the Al mahdi army compared to the Sunni insurgents, its less significant than meets the eye (and is it before or after the 4000 killed?)
2. How many are hired thugs who will go home when the funds dry up?
3. How many are "nationalist" in the sense of viscerally attacking Americans, but will go home when they see pro-Allawi Iraqis on patrol?
4. How many are in Fallujah?

Without some breakout, its hard to make sense of the number.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 10:26 Comments || Top||

#12  LH - I'm sure it's what the bartender at the Baghdad Intercontinental quoted. ...
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 10:33 Comments || Top||

#13  Great news! They're down to only 20k! Just a few days ago there were claims that the Mahdi "Army" had 250k all by itself. Sounds like there's been some good huntin' goin' on down there.
Posted by: Tibor || 07/09/2004 13:14 Comments || Top||


Al-Tawhid threatens to kill Bulgarian hostages
Militants in Iraq threatened on Thursday to kill two Bulgarian hostages within 24 hours unless US-led forces freed prisoners, stepping up pressure on Prime Minister Iyad Allawi’s new interim government. The Arabic satellite television station Al Jazeera said the tape was from the Tawhid and Jihad group headed by Jordanian Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who has been accused by Washington of links to Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda. The tape showed two men, identified as Bulgarians, sitting in front of masked captors, two of them wielding automatic weapons while a third read a statement. "The group said the Bulgarian government bore responsibility over the safety of its citizens because it has sent troops to Iraq," said Al Jazeera. No immediate comment was available from Bulgarian officials, and it was not clear whether the captive Bulgarians were military personnel or civilians.

In the latest violence in Iraq, guerrillas killed five US soldiers and two Iraqi guards in a mortar attack on National Guard headquarters in Samarra, north of Baghdad. A US Army Apache attack helicopter fired Hellfire missiles at a nearby building after the strike, killing four insurgents, the US military said. The deaths in Samarra, a mainly Sunni Muslim town about 100km north of Baghdad, brought to more than 650 the US combat death toll in Iraq since the US-led invasion in March last year to topple Saddam Hussein. The guerrilla attack occurred a day after the interim government announced a new security law giving itself tougher powers to combat guerrilla attacks. Outside Samarra, insurgents opened fire on a convoy of oil tanker trucks, killing two drivers, at least one of whom was Turkish, witnesses said. In Baghdad, police said an official of Saddam’s ousted Baath party was killed when a bomb hidden in his car exploded outside a rope factory he owned in the south of the city. Baathists have frequently been murdered in revenge attacks. In the northern city of Mosul, one police officer was killed and seven wounded when a roadside bomb exploded at a roundabout. Another was shot dead when insurgents fired at a police station, the US military said. Four suspected insurgents were detained.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/09/2004 9:28:52 PM || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:


Israel-Palestine
Israel Court Orders U.S. Activist Expelled
An Israeli court on Thursday ordered the expulsion of an American activist who came to the country to protest against Israel's West Bank separation barrier. Ann Petter, a 44-year-old graphic designer from New York City, has been held in detention since arriving in Israel on June 23.
"Get out and stay out!"
The Tel Aviv court upheld the decision denying her entry into Israel and ordered her to leave the country within 24 hours, said her lawyer, Yael Berda. Berda said she planned to appeal. Police had demanded that Petter be barred from Israel because of her affiliation with the International Solidarity Movement, a pro-terrorist Palestinian group active in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. During the court hearings, the judge said Israel does not have a policy of barring ISM terror apologists activists, but that the group's history makes it suspect.
Toss her in front of a dozer blade and scrape shove her into Egypt.
Posted by: Steve White || 07/09/2004 11:42:07 PM || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Steve! that's vicious and evil! Wish I'd done it first....damn..
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 0:09 Comments || Top||

#2  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 6:18 Comments || Top||

#3  IDF: Shoot her in the head.
Posted by: Howard UK || 07/09/2004 6:19 Comments || Top||

#4  Freedom of Speech, Motha Fucking Israeli Style
Posted by: Faisal || 07/09/2004 6:43 Comments || Top||

#5  I'm sure Hamas and Hezbollah are great proponents of free speech. You make me piss.
Posted by: Howard UK || 07/09/2004 6:54 Comments || Top||

#6  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 7:49 Comments || Top||

#7  Faisal,
Is Ann Peter an Israeli citizen? What is it with you, muslims, who think that you have the right to go to another country and demand things? Being allowed into another country that is not yours is not a right, it is a privilage!
And if Israel wants to keep the bitch out, it is in within its rights to do so!
Posted by: Anonymous4724 || 07/09/2004 8:35 Comments || Top||

#8  Faisal, you decry Israel, do you want us to explain to you freedom of speech moooslim style? Should we start in Saudi Arabia, bastion of the moooslim world, where carrying a Bible is a crime? Do you want to go down that road, shit for brains? I didn't think so, you moon-god worshiping pedophile following dumb ass. As for you anti-semite, ISM is nothing but a terrorist supporting organization, as such with this bitch Petter being a member, she should be tried on charges of supporting terrorism. As should you, since you obviously support terrorists murdering Jewish women and children. You are beneath the scum I scrape from out of my toenails.
Posted by: AllahHateMe || 07/09/2004 8:46 Comments || Top||

#9  Israel is not a country recognized by all other countries on Planet Earth. Keep that in mind.
AllahHateMe: Looks like the Pharisee hate manual Talmud (spit) has made you lose your mind. I'm not anti-semite. I'm anti-jew. There is no such thing as anti-semitism. Anti-jew is the politically correct word. I do not support murder of Jewish women, children and civilians. However, if your read the Pharisee Hate Manual (spit) Talmud, you will find out that the murder, loot, rape, and every sin against a non-jew is allowed. So next time you open your shitty mouth (incorrectly) labelling others as terrorists, go read your hate manual first.
Dumb Ass worshiper of YHVH or is it YaawwwVeeeh lol. Guess what.... Yahooooooooo sounds much better :-)
Posted by: Faisal || 07/09/2004 8:55 Comments || Top||

#10  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 8:59 Comments || Top||

#11  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 9:04 Comments || Top||

#12  Faisal,
Israel is recognized as a country wheather you like or not. The Talmud and the Bible do have a lot passages where horrible things were done but you do realize that that was many centuries ago and people do not do that anymore. What is your excuse for still practicing them?
Posted by: Anonymous4724 || 07/09/2004 9:16 Comments || Top||

#13  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 9:22 Comments || Top||

#14  little Miss Sink Trap and Faisal in the same thread? Woo Hoo!
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 9:39 Comments || Top||

#15  hi antiwar! :)
i am knew i see you hear today. i am kep my on the sink trap for you in the future to see if you are visit again.

bye now. :)
Posted by: muck4doo || 07/09/2004 9:42 Comments || Top||

#16  A good start. I'd like to see this article followed up with: "US Court Orders U.S. Activist Expelled". Let her go live with her precious moose limbs.
Posted by: BH || 07/09/2004 10:00 Comments || Top||

#17  Actually Faisal, you midget brained goat humper, I am an Agnostic. I've never read the Talmud. But I am very well aware of the history of the death cult of mohammed, the pedophile. At least you don't hide that you hate jews. And you can try to re-define words all you like but in the *real* world anti-semitism = jew hating. Pretty simple, even a drooling pile of pig shit like you should be able to understand that. As for that ignorant waste of human flesh anti-war, nevermind. I'm done wasting my breath on shit stains like you two. ESAD the both of you.
Posted by: AllahHateMe || 07/09/2004 11:24 Comments || Top||

#18  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 11:27 Comments || Top||

#19  Antisemite--

I like Faisal, because he reveals the truth about you.
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 11:28 Comments || Top||

#20  Of course, Fizzle has a point about not all countries recognizing Israel. So whatever he sez.
Posted by: .com || 07/09/2004 11:30 Comments || Top||

#21  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 11:31 Comments || Top||

#22  murder, loot, rape, and every sin against a non-jew is allowed.
Then ain't it funny that we never see any Jews doing these things?
On the other hand, we see Mohammedans doing these things in the name of Mohammed (piss be upon him) on a daily basis.
Isn't it weird, Faisal, that Mohammed (peas be under him) proscribed rarely followed protections for "people of the book," but provided no protection at all for people of other religions, or aetheists?
Posted by: therien || 07/09/2004 11:38 Comments || Top||

#23  It means, you drooling cow, that you actually do hate Jews.
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 11:38 Comments || Top||

#24  AllahHateMe: lol. Well you've never read the Talmud... awwww. Guess it's time to read it then. It has alot of interesting things... like allowing sexual intercourse with 3 month old babies (pedophile anyone? ), calls for rape, murder, loot etc or all non-jews (equality anyone?), Calls Jesus a 'bastard' declaring him to be in Hell boiling in 'hot semen'. Of course, why would you be interested in reading such a hate masterpiece. You would be interested in reading Bible and Quran and quoting them out of context. Whining dickhead. I don't have anything personal with Jewism. But no religion on earth except Judaism declares it's followers the chosen ones... and the rest of the creation shit. For one, we don't know if this is a religion at all. Seems more like a race to the rest of us. Jew, Zionist etc all are the same. Shit be upon you. Follower of unknown dieties. You guys have the wrong genes buddy :-)
Posted by: Faisal || 07/09/2004 11:38 Comments || Top||

#25  See, Antisemite? You'd rather attack AllahHateMe than Faisal.

You go, girl!
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 11:40 Comments || Top||

#26  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 07/09/2004 11:45 Comments || Top||

#27  Ha ha, Antisemite, a little too late for that. Besides, Faisal denies that there's any difference bewteen Jews and Zionsts, just like your muslim boyfriend does--speaking of birds of a feather.
Posted by: BMN || 07/09/2004 11:46 Comments || Top||

#28  What is the sound of one butt booted?
Posted by: mojo || 07/09/2004 12:01 Comments || Top||

#29  Therein: Muhammeden religion... where does it exist?. All arab countries are dictatorships. Israel is also a sham democracy. As for your statement that we do not see Jews doing these things... i do not agree with you. Why go far, the IDF pussies spread mayhem every day. So should I assume that every single jew on earth supports what IDF or Israel does?. Of course this is not the case. Similary, if a mentally retard suicide bomber blows himself or herself up, it does not mean that the billion other muslims permit this behaviour.
As for your note about protection of other religions, what I am aware of is that all non-Muslims (whether people of the book or not) are to be protected. Places of worship of non-muslims are to be protected as well.
Interestingly, AllahHateMe has nothing to say on my pointing out the fact that the Talmud declares all Jews as 'supreme'. So, by defition, Judasim (according to the Talmudic teachings) is a racist religion --- if you want to consider it a religion at all, that is.
Posted by: Faisal || 07/09/2004 12:47 Comments || Top||

#30  man Faisal and Anti should get together. She could nag him to death for his Islamonazi views and he could slap the bitch back into her burqa. What a pair
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 12:51 Comments || Top||

#31  Similary, if a mentally retard suicide bomber blows himself or herself up, it does not mean that the billion other muslims permit this behaviour.

Right. It would be the swarms of Muslim crowds cheering the deaths that would mean that.

Posted by: jules 187 || 07/09/2004 13:00 Comments || Top||

#32  So, Faisal, have you read the Talmud? Or are you just parroting the loudest mullah you hear?

A word of warning in your shell-like ear: Rantburgers have read in the original any source you are likely to quote, including the Koran/Qu'ran. So you want to give chapter and verse for each of your statements -- that will make it easier to demonstrate where you erred.
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/09/2004 13:00 Comments || Top||

#33  Like islam didn't glome onto Jewish theology faisel. Ever heard of Abraham, Oh yea, and how about that prophet Jesus. Both predate that fake cuthroat mohammed, faisel.

Posted by: Lucky || 07/09/2004 13:13 Comments || Top||

#34  Why go far, the IDF pussies spread mayhem every day.

The conveniently omitted fact is that the IDF goes after terrorists and suspected terrorists, but Paleo terorrists target civilian non-combatants.

Similary, if a mentally retard suicide bomber blows himself or herself up, it does not mean that the billion other muslims permit this behaviour.

Haahahahahahaa, a suicide/murder bomber isn't likely to be a retard. They know exactly what they're doing, just like the rest of his/her brethren know. And the fact that very, very few Muslims have any objection to the practice as it applies to Jews can only mean that they either don't care, or worse, approve of it.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 07/09/2004 13:14 Comments || Top||

#35  Trailing Wife... I posted the stuff from Talmud... it appears that the Webmaster doesnt want you or anyone to see them ... lol.
Posted by: Faisal || 07/09/2004 13:33 Comments || Top||

#36  Is Lame is not a religion, it's Microsoft corporate philosophy slapped over Judaism: Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.
Posted by: BH || 07/09/2004 14:01 Comments || Top||

#37  It's Kamel Krapper again.

Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 14:21 Comments || Top||

#38  Faisal,

All you need do is give the chapter & verse references -- we can look it up ourselves without wasting Fred's bandwidth. So let's see what you've got.
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/09/2004 14:37 Comments || Top||

#39  My apologies, Faisal. Your charming post is in Fred's sinktrap six times.

LH -- I'd love the Talmud websites, please.
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/09/2004 14:43 Comments || Top||

#40  “The IDF pussies spread mayhem every day.” You forgot to add that the IDF “pussies” kicked EVERY Arab countries ass in EVERY war that they fought. Must be brave to send your women and mentally challenged to act as cannon fodder. Not to worry, your day is coming and you can personally discuss the pro/con of all religions with Allah. Remember to mention that you were promised 72 virgins, I’m sure that God will get a laugh out of that one. And just for good measure you can take the Petter bitch as a down payment on your virgins (but I doubt she still is).
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 07/09/2004 14:46 Comments || Top||

#41 
sorry if ive repeated myself - for some reason im not seeing my own comments on this post.

Heres a link to a guy who seems to put a lot of time into this.

Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 14:47 Comments || Top||

#42  oops

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 14:48 Comments || Top||

#43  Got to like Faisal he doesn't try to hide what he is,not like little Anti.(Faisal your soulmate Anti)
Posted by: djohn66 || 07/09/2004 14:51 Comments || Top||

#44  You and I are going into the sinktrap LH.
Posted by: 11A5S || 07/09/2004 14:55 Comments || Top||

#45  also look here

http://talmud.faithweb.com/
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 15:06 Comments || Top||

#46  Well, it would only be fair if I was allowed to cut and paste from the hate manual talmud here. Looks like the webmaster does not want that. Come on man, is that being fair?. You keep on spitting shit and then stop people from posting from YOUR religious book. This is not fair.
Trailing Wife: why do you need just the chapter and verse references? For the benefit of the people who visit this website, just post the original. Suddenly, you remember saving Fred's bandwidth haha. What a moron.
All of this proves just one point: that you do not want people to see or read your hate manual. Mr Fred or whatever's action proves my point. I couldn't have dunnit any better :-)
Posted by: Faisal || 07/09/2004 16:43 Comments || Top||

#47  ima went to see antiwar coments and 11a5s in rite. faisal 11a5s leberalhawk and therien all in there now along with antiwar.

antiwar! at be least happy you are have plenty company now! :)

ima not want her feel lonely in there just her and her burka.
Posted by: muck4doo || 07/09/2004 18:10 Comments || Top||

#48  I spent quite a bit of time writing routines to keep out a Nazi's comments. If the routine keeps out what you're writing, maybe it's doing its job.

For the rest of you, I guess it keeps out the rebuttals, too. Sorry.

Antiwar - You eat with that mouth? Eeewwww!

Posted by: Fred || 07/09/2004 19:11 Comments || Top||

#49  I note that some nasty characters posting on this thread are claiming a violation of their civil right to "freedom of speech." I’m often amazed when people claim that average citizens (or businesses) are violating the First Amendment. Where there is no prior restraint by Government, or other similar governmental action, there is no First Amendment violation. What these people are really objecting to, is generally the very thing they profess to cherish, the unfettered exercise by private citizens (and businesses) of that particular First Amendment right known as criticism -- often of some LLL moron or position, or of private citizens exercising their right to maintain a forum that is kept free from abuse and hijack.
Posted by: cingold || 07/09/2004 19:33 Comments || Top||

#50  Faisal,
I truely hope you know Yiddish (and that you are familliar with Israely films from the 1970's)
but even if you are not let me quote :
"kumt a here faisal mine kleine shepsale, und ich will been gelernen karate !)
free translation : "come here faisal my little lamb and I will teach you karate"
As lovingly spoken by the homosexual yiddish speaking Karate teacher to his prospective student!
In other words dear faisal : UP YOURS !!!!!!
Posted by: Socrates of Jerusalem || 07/09/2004 19:36 Comments || Top||

#51  LH,

Thanks for the Talmud links. I've saved them to my favorites.

Faisal reminds me of the people who ring my doorbell to convert me, who've memorized a few verses and think that therefore they are knowledgeable. I haven't yet met one who actually knows anything more than that -- and I look forward to the day one of these guys knows why he believes what he believes, let alone why I should. (Ptah, you haven't yet stopped by the house :-(
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/09/2004 21:44 Comments || Top||

#52  What be "sinktrap?" I was only trying to post an URL that seems to have been too large... the post worked without the biggie.
Are posters of rejected material cited somewhere?
Feel free to e-mail me buds--I love participating, but have a day job.
Posted by: therien || 07/09/2004 22:48 Comments || Top||

#53  Fred, I honestly don't mind the antiwars, faisals, and other trolls of the world. It's exactly those folks that the great spirit puts upon the earth to make the rest of us feel better about ourselves........
Posted by: Jarhead || 07/09/2004 22:56 Comments || Top||

#54  they're fun to play with, for a while, like picking at a scab....but sooner or later the infection and illness can set in
Posted by: Frank G || 07/09/2004 23:15 Comments || Top||

#55  ANN PETTER IS IMPRISONED BY ZIONAZIS!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 6:18 Comments || Top||

#56  Faisal only Zionazis get freedom of speech in their Entity.
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 7:49 Comments || Top||

#57  Allahhateme You are a living miscarriage who crawled from the toilet you were flushed ito.
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 8:59 Comments || Top||

#58  Faisal Not all Jews are Zionazis . Quite a lot are Anti Zionist and they are against the Entity. Yes the correct word is not Antisemite though as most jews are Khazars. Yup AllahHateMe is a dumbass alright I think God must have hated him as he gave him 2 anuses one to talk with.
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 9:04 Comments || Top||

#59  I am leaving for the present but rest assured I will return.
BWAAHAHAHA.

ISRAEL IS A STATE RUN BY NAZIS
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 9:22 Comments || Top||

#60  AllahHateMe GO AND FUCK A PIG. IF YOU CAN MAYBE YOUR DICK IS TINY AND YOU ARE IMPOTENT.
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 11:27 Comments || Top||

#61  Bowel what the fuck does that mean?
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 11:31 Comments || Top||

#62 
A few masterpieces from the hate manual Talmud:



"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.' Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse. ...Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "

Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men").

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work

Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals ("she-asses").

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men"

Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden

Sanhedrin 79b: Murdering Gentiles might be classed with killing wild animals for which the State pays one a bounty, according to the Talmud. Even more, the attempt to kill a Gentile so sanctifies a Jew that if he kills another "human," or Jew, in the attempt, the sin is washed away and there is no penalty. This sport flourishes in Jewish- Countries. The core of the long harangue in Sanhedrin 78b-79a is if a Jew "intended killing...a heathen and he killed a Israelite...he is not liable." After typical silly twaddle, this is repeated in the Gemara, BUT: "if he intended killing one Israelite and killed another, HE IS Liable. The next page, weighing the purity of the killer's heart, says if a Jew "threw a stone into a company of Israelites and heathens...Shall we say the company consisted of nine heathens and one Israelite...his NON-LIABILITY can be inferred from the fact that the majority were heathens...even if half and half...Since...we do not know whether he aimed at an Israelite or a heathen...he is not liable." A footnote concludes that this "verse under discussion teaches that the murderer IS NOT LIABLE." Even the breath of suspicion that the Jews was trying to kill a Gen5tile purifies him and purges him of the murder of another Jew, or "human." Ah. The beauties of"brotherhood" as taught by Talmudism
---------------------------------

Please printout and FRAME the above and hang them on your wall.
Posted by: Faisal || 07/09/2004 13:15 Comments || Top||

#63 
A few masterpieces from the hate manual Talmud:



"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.' Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse. ...Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "

Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men").

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work

Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals ("she-asses").

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men"

Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden

Sanhedrin 79b: Murdering Gentiles might be classed with killing wild animals for which the State pays one a bounty, according to the Talmud. Even more, the attempt to kill a Gentile so sanctifies a Jew that if he kills another "human," or Jew, in the attempt, the sin is washed away and there is no penalty. This sport flourishes in Jewish- Countries. The core of the long harangue in Sanhedrin 78b-79a is if a Jew "intended killing...a heathen and he killed a Israelite...he is not liable." After typical silly twaddle, this is repeated in the Gemara, BUT: "if he intended killing one Israelite and killed another, HE IS Liable. The next page, weighing the purity of the killer's heart, says if a Jew "threw a stone into a company of Israelites and heathens...Shall we say the company consisted of nine heathens and one Israelite...his NON-LIABILITY can be inferred from the fact that the majority were heathens...even if half and half...Since...we do not know whether he aimed at an Israelite or a heathen...he is not liable." A footnote concludes that this "verse under discussion teaches that the murderer IS NOT LIABLE." Even the breath of suspicion that the Jews was trying to kill a Gen5tile purifies him and purges him of the murder of another Jew, or "human." Ah. The beauties of"brotherhood" as taught by Talmudism
---------------------------------

Please printout and FRAME the above and hang them on your wall.
Posted by: Faisal || 07/09/2004 13:15 Comments || Top||

#64 
A few masterpieces from the hate manual Talmud:



"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.' Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse. ...Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "

Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men").

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work

Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals ("she-asses").

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men"

Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden

Sanhedrin 79b: Murdering Gentiles might be classed with killing wild animals for which the State pays one a bounty, according to the Talmud. Even more, the attempt to kill a Gentile so sanctifies a Jew that if he kills another "human," or Jew, in the attempt, the sin is washed away and there is no penalty. This sport flourishes in Jewish- Countries. The core of the long harangue in Sanhedrin 78b-79a is if a Jew "intended killing...a heathen and he killed a Israelite...he is not liable." After typical silly twaddle, this is repeated in the Gemara, BUT: "if he intended killing one Israelite and killed another, HE IS Liable. The next page, weighing the purity of the killer's heart, says if a Jew "threw a stone into a company of Israelites and heathens...Shall we say the company consisted of nine heathens and one Israelite...his NON-LIABILITY can be inferred from the fact that the majority were heathens...even if half and half...Since...we do not know whether he aimed at an Israelite or a heathen...he is not liable." A footnote concludes that this "verse under discussion teaches that the murderer IS NOT LIABLE." Even the breath of suspicion that the Jews was trying to kill a Gen5tile purifies him and purges him of the murder of another Jew, or "human." Ah. The beauties of"brotherhood" as taught by Talmudism
---------------------------------

Please printout and FRAME the above and hang them on your wall.
Posted by: Faisal || 07/09/2004 13:32 Comments || Top||

#65 
A few masterpieces from the hate manual Talmud:



"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.' Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse. ...Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "

Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men").

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work

Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals ("she-asses").

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men"

Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden

Sanhedrin 79b: Murdering Gentiles might be classed with killing wild animals for which the State pays one a bounty, according to the Talmud. Even more, the attempt to kill a Gentile so sanctifies a Jew that if he kills another "human," or Jew, in the attempt, the sin is washed away and there is no penalty. This sport flourishes in Jewish- Countries. The core of the long harangue in Sanhedrin 78b-79a is if a Jew "intended killing...a heathen and he killed a Israelite...he is not liable." After typical silly twaddle, this is repeated in the Gemara, BUT: "if he intended killing one Israelite and killed another, HE IS Liable. The next page, weighing the purity of the killer's heart, says if a Jew "threw a stone into a company of Israelites and heathens...Shall we say the company consisted of nine heathens and one Israelite...his NON-LIABILITY can be inferred from the fact that the majority were heathens...even if half and half...Since...we do not know whether he aimed at an Israelite or a heathen...he is not liable." A footnote concludes that this "verse under discussion teaches that the murderer IS NOT LIABLE." Even the breath of suspicion that the Jews was trying to kill a Gen5tile purifies him and purges him of the murder of another Jew, or "human." Ah. The beauties of"brotherhood" as taught by Talmudism
---------------------------------

Please printout and FRAME the above and hang them on your wall.
Posted by: Faisal || 07/09/2004 13:32 Comments || Top||

#66  A few masterpieces from the hate manual Talmud:



"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.' Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse. ...Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "

Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men").

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work

Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals ("she-asses").

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men"

Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden

Sanhedrin 79b: Murdering Gentiles might be classed with killing wild animals for which the State pays one a bounty, according to the Talmud. Even more, the attempt to kill a Gentile so sanctifies a Jew that if he kills another "human," or Jew, in the attempt, the sin is washed away and there is no penalty. This sport flourishes in Jewish- Countries. The core of the long harangue in Sanhedrin 78b-79a is if a Jew "intended killing...a heathen and he killed a Israelite...he is not liable." After typical silly twaddle, this is repeated in the Gemara, BUT: "if he intended killing one Israelite and killed another, HE IS Liable. The next page, weighing the purity of the killer's heart, says if a Jew "threw a stone into a company of Israelites and heathens...Shall we say the company consisted of nine heathens and one Israelite...his NON-LIABILITY can be inferred from the fact that the majority were heathens...even if half and half...Since...we do not know whether he aimed at an Israelite or a heathen...he is not liable." A footnote concludes that this "verse under discussion teaches that the murderer IS NOT LIABLE." Even the breath of suspicion that the Jews was trying to kill a Gen5tile purifies him and purges him of the murder of another Jew, or "human." Ah. The beauties of"brotherhood" as taught by Talmudism
---------------------------------
Posted by: Faisal || 07/09/2004 13:39 Comments || Top||

#67  A few masterpieces from the hate manual Talmud:



"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.' Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse. ...Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "

Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men").

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work

Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals ("she-asses").

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men"

Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden

Sanhedrin 79b: Murdering Gentiles might be classed with killing wild animals for which the State pays one a bounty, according to the Talmud. Even more, the attempt to kill a Gentile so sanctifies a Jew that if he kills another "human," or Jew, in the attempt, the sin is washed away and there is no penalty. This sport flourishes in Jewish- Countries. The core of the long harangue in Sanhedrin 78b-79a is if a Jew "intended killing...a heathen and he killed a Israelite...he is not liable." After typical silly twaddle, this is repeated in the Gemara, BUT: "if he intended killing one Israelite and killed another, HE IS Liable. The next page, weighing the purity of the killer's heart, says if a Jew "threw a stone into a company of Israelites and heathens...Shall we say the company consisted of nine heathens and one Israelite...his NON-LIABILITY can be inferred from the fact that the majority were heathens...even if half and half...Since...we do not know whether he aimed at an Israelite or a heathen...he is not liable." A footnote concludes that this "verse under discussion teaches that the murderer IS NOT LIABLE." Even the breath of suspicion that the Jews was trying to kill a Gen5tile purifies him and purges him of the murder of another Jew, or "human." Ah. The beauties of"brotherhood" as taught by Talmudism
---------------------------------
Posted by: Faisal || 07/09/2004 13:39 Comments || Top||

#68  i suppose im the only one here who actually HAS read the Talmud :) Its mainly a book (well actually a set of books - it runs to close to 20 volumes in most editions) that concerns such EXCITING topics as to how early its proper to say your morning prayers, what to do if two people both claim to have found a piece of lost property, and how to properly tithe your produce. Along with asides on the interpretation of the bible, on ethics, on science (such as it was) on history, on legends, etc.

Out of those twenty or so thick volumes there are a HANDFUL of quotes that express some degree of venom against gentiles. Usually not nearly that bad in context. Written in some cases by people who suffered under the Roman State. And balanced by numerous references to rights of gentiles under Jewish law, the goodness of those righteous gentiles, etc.

However the handful of venomous quotes are normally cited out of context by jewhaters. There are some web sites with responses, if y'all need them.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 14:13 Comments || Top||

#69  i suppose im the only one here who actually HAS read the Talmud :) Its mainly a book (well actually a set of books - it runs to close to 20 volumes in most editions) that concerns such EXCITING topics as to how early its proper to say your morning prayers, what to do if two people both claim to have found a piece of lost property, and how to properly tithe your produce. Along with asides on the interpretation of the bible, on ethics, on science (such as it was) on history, on legends, etc.

Out of those twenty or so thick volumes there are a HANDFUL of quotes that express some degree of venom against gentiles. Usually not nearly that bad in context. Written in some cases by people who suffered under the Roman State. And balanced by numerous references to rights of gentiles under Jewish law, the goodness of those righteous gentiles, etc.

However the handful of venomous quotes are normally cited out of context by jewhaters. There are some web sites with responses, if y'all need them.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 14:13 Comments || Top||

#70  i HAVE read the Talmud - its about 20 thick volumes of rabbinic commentary on Jewish law, on topics ranging from proper times for prayer, to issues of marriage and inheritance. MIxed in are asides on theology, ethics, history, legend, etc. There are a handful of quotes, that, out of context, are hateful towards gentiles (note that the Talmud records the views of individual rabbis, even where they conflict) These quotes are standard fare for jewhaters, who take them out of context, and ignore the many quotes in the Talmud that are friendly toward gentiles. There are websites that respond to the Jewhaters on this, if you need more info.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 14:44 Comments || Top||

#71  i HAVE read the Talmud - its about 20 thick volumes of rabbinic commentary on Jewish law, on topics ranging from proper times for prayer, to issues of marriage and inheritance. MIxed in are asides on theology, ethics, history, legend, etc. There are a handful of quotes, that, out of context, are hateful towards gentiles (note that the Talmud records the views of individual rabbis, even where they conflict) These quotes are standard fare for jewhaters, who take them out of context, and ignore the many quotes in the Talmud that are friendly toward gentiles. There are websites that respond to the Jewhaters on this, if you need more info.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 14:44 Comments || Top||

#72  Here is a refutation to the gentiles are animals contention.
Posted by: 11A5S || 07/09/2004 14:52 Comments || Top||

#73  Here is a refutation to the gentiles are animals contention.
Posted by: 11A5S || 07/09/2004 14:52 Comments || Top||

#74  "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated."- Aboda Sarah 37a.

RESPONSE
Apparently a deliberate misquote. The observation is a technical, physiological one, regarding the impurities related to genital "flows" as outlined in Leviticus chapter 15. The Talmudic source argues that since the tearing of the hymen at that age would be permanent (as distinct from a younger girl whose hymen the rabbis believed would grow back), she is considered to have reached a state of physical development that her discharges would be included under the category of impure flows according to the Biblical purity laws. (The same rule, by the way, would apply to a Jewish girl). This is of course not a permission to "violate" the girl, merely a legal definition of her age. From Usenet message catamont-
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 14:57 Comments || Top||

#75  "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated."- Aboda Sarah 37a.

RESPONSE
Apparently a deliberate misquote. The observation is a technical, physiological one, regarding the impurities related to genital "flows" as outlined in Leviticus chapter 15. The Talmudic source argues that since the tearing of the hymen at that age would be permanent (as distinct from a younger girl whose hymen the rabbis believed would grow back), she is considered to have reached a state of physical development that her discharges would be included under the category of impure flows according to the Biblical purity laws. (The same rule, by the way, would apply to a Jewish girl). This is of course not a permission to "violate" the girl, merely a legal definition of her age. From Usenet message catamont-
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/09/2004 14:57 Comments || Top||

#76  A few masterpieces from the hate manual Talmud:



"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.' Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse. ...Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "

Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men").

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work

Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals ("she-asses").

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men"

Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden

Sanhedrin 79b: Murdering Gentiles might be classed with killing wild animals for which the State pays one a bounty, according to the Talmud. Even more, the attempt to kill a Gentile so sanctifies a Jew that if he kills another "human," or Jew, in the attempt, the sin is washed away and there is no penalty. This sport flourishes in Jewish- Countries. The core of the long harangue in Sanhedrin 78b-79a is if a Jew "intended killing...a heathen and he killed a Israelite...he is not liable." After typical silly twaddle, this is repeated in the Gemara, BUT: "if he intended killing one Israelite and killed another, HE IS Liable. The next page, weighing the purity of the killer's heart, says if a Jew "threw a stone into a company of Israelites and heathens...Shall we say the company consisted of nine heathens and one Israelite...his NON-LIABILITY can be inferred from the fact that the majority were heathens...even if half and half...Since...we do not know whether he aimed at an Israelite or a heathen...he is not liable." A footnote concludes that this "verse under discussion teaches that the murderer IS NOT LIABLE." Even the breath of suspicion that the Jews was trying to kill a Gen5tile purifies him and purges him of the murder of another Jew, or "human." Ah. The beauties of"brotherhood" as taught by Talmudism
---------------------------------
Posted by: Faisal || 07/09/2004 16:37 Comments || Top||

#77  A few masterpieces from the hate manual Talmud:



"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.' Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse. ...Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "

Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men").

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work

Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals ("she-asses").

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men"

Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden

Sanhedrin 79b: Murdering Gentiles might be classed with killing wild animals for which the State pays one a bounty, according to the Talmud. Even more, the attempt to kill a Gentile so sanctifies a Jew that if he kills another "human," or Jew, in the attempt, the sin is washed away and there is no penalty. This sport flourishes in Jewish- Countries. The core of the long harangue in Sanhedrin 78b-79a is if a Jew "intended killing...a heathen and he killed a Israelite...he is not liable." After typical silly twaddle, this is repeated in the Gemara, BUT: "if he intended killing one Israelite and killed another, HE IS Liable. The next page, weighing the purity of the killer's heart, says if a Jew "threw a stone into a company of Israelites and heathens...Shall we say the company consisted of nine heathens and one Israelite...his NON-LIABILITY can be inferred from the fact that the majority were heathens...even if half and half...Since...we do not know whether he aimed at an Israelite or a heathen...he is not liable." A footnote concludes that this "verse under discussion teaches that the murderer IS NOT LIABLE." Even the breath of suspicion that the Jews was trying to kill a Gen5tile purifies him and purges him of the murder of another Jew, or "human." Ah. The beauties of"brotherhood" as taught by Talmudism
---------------------------------
Posted by: Faisal || 07/09/2004 16:37 Comments || Top||

#78  Faisal not all Jews are Zionists. This is true www.nkusa.org(neturei karta)and www.jewsagainstzionism.com(true torah jews)will confirm. The vicious genocidal Zionists have hijacked the name of Israel for their vile use. Read if you are curious Ten Questions to the Zionists on www.jewsagainstzionism. Sharon and Hitler? Birds of a Feather.
Posted by: Antiwar || 07/09/2004 11:45 Comments || Top||


Caucasus
North Ossetia car boom kills 2
Two senior police officials from Altai were killed when an explosion ripped through their car in the turbulent North Ossetia region, authorities said Thursday. Sergei Bogdanets, Altai’s deputy interior minister for economic and tax crimes, and police Lieutenant Yury Maidurov were killed as they headed through Mozdok to the North Caucasus airport in Mineralniye Vody after a working trip to neighboring Chechnya, said Alexei Polyansky, spokesman for the southern Russian branch of the federal Interior Ministry. Two other passengers in the car were injured, and one escaped without any injuries, he said. Investigators initially thought the explosion was a terrorist attack, but the North Ossetian Interior Ministry later said it may have been caused by the careless handling of a flash-bang grenade.The investigation is continuing. Mozdok is the headquarters for federal forces fighting in Chechnya.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/09/2004 10:03:59 PM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  The cancer is spreading.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 1:54 Comments || Top||

#2  Yes, it's spreading, and I'm sure it's due to the anger over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which as we know is the root cause of all Islamic anger.
Posted by: virginian || 07/09/2004 8:51 Comments || Top||


Ingush president ready for talks with Maskhadov
Ingush president Murat Zyazikov has clearly been rattled by the bloody rebel raid of the republic in late June, and his recent announcement that he would consider talks with Chechen separatist president Aslan Maskhadov has highlighted his desperation.

In an interview published by two separatist websites on 5-6 July, Chechen separatist president Aslan Maskhadov reiterated that he is ready for negotiations with the federal authorities, while claiming that his forces have the means to fight on for years, should the Kremlin choose to continue the war. More surprising and tantalizing, however, were comments made on 6 July by Murat Zyazikov, president of Ingushetia, which was recently the target of a devastating raid by anti-government insurgents. Zyazikov indicated that he is open for negotiations with Maskhadov. The interview with Maskhadov, transcripts of which were published by both the Chechenpress and Kavkazcenter websites, was dated 20 June, two days before the rebel attacks in Ingushetia. "If they [the Russians] haven’t completely lost their minds, they must understand that even if the war lasts for 5-10 years and they find another Kadyrov [Akhmad Kadyrov, the pro-Moscow president who was assassinated on 9 May] or ten like him, they will not achieve a victory through war and treachery," Maskhadov said in the interview. "The only way to end the war is through a truce. And we are offering one." He also said that if Russia withdraws its troops from Chechnya, "then we ourselves will reinforce the southern borders and not allow the influence here of other states, not allow them to go to the Caspian across Chechnya, but all of this on the condition that Russia will understand and help us". It should be noted that in the transcript of the interview posted by Chechenpress, Maskhadov was quoted as saying his forces could fight for another 5-10 years with little problem.

Maskhadov’s latest offer of an olive branch was quickly brushed aside by Chechen Interior Minister Alu Alkhanov, who is favored to win Chechnya’s 29 August presidential election thanks to backing from the Kadyrov clan and the Kremlin’s tacit blessing. "I have always said that if we announced that we were prepared for negotiations with him [Maskhadov], he would never hold them with us," Alkhanov said. "He is not the kind of person who needs peace. On the contrary, he needs instability both in Ingushetia and Chechnya." Alkhanov also ruled out talks with Chechen rebel field commander Shamil Basaev, Interfax reported on 6 July. Basaev recently appeared on a videotape broadcast by Al-Jazeera, in which he condemned the February assassination of the former acting Chechen separatist president, Zelimkhan Yandarbiev, adding: "We are not planning any operations in foreign countries ... unlike the Russians who assassinated our former leader in Qatar."

If Alkhanov’s instant rejection of Maskhadov’s latest peace offer was predictable, the comments made by Ingushetia’s president, Murat Zyazikov, were not. Zyazikov, who was in Moscow, told reporters that those responsible for the 21-22 June attacks in Ingushetia were "international rabble in the worst sense of the word" and included terrorists from the Middle East, Central Asia, and elsewhere in the North Caucasus. At the same time, when asked about the possibility of talks with Maskhadov, Zyazikov answered: "Any dialog inside Chechnya that would bring peace closer, I would support." He added, however, that this was an issue for the federal center and President Vladimir Putin to decide, Rosbalt and Regnum.ru reported on 6 July. In addition, Zyazikov admitted that abductions by federal and local security forces like those that have plagued Chechnya have spread to Ingushetia. He called the trend "very serious" but insisted his administration is "fighting against this", the Associated Press reported on 6 July. Zyazikov’s comments were surprising, given that he is a retired FSB general who many observers believe won Ingushetia’s presidency in 2002 thanks to electoral manipulation by the federal authorities, who viewed him as a pliable replacement for Ruslan Aushev, the republic’s previous president and a vocal critic of federal policy in Chechnya.

It seems clear that the June 21-22 insurgent attacks - not to mention a failed assassination attempt by a suicide bomber in April - rattled Zyazikov. So too, perhaps, have other developments suggesting that he is losing control of the situation in the republic. On 5 July, Ingushetia’s mufti, Magomed Albogachiyev, announced that he was stepping down from his post as chairman of the Spiritual Board of Muslims of the Ingushetia Republic. Albogachiyev said in a statement that the 21-22 June attacks had demonstrated the inability of the republic’s administration to protect its citizenry. "There is at present an extremely tense social-political situation in the republic," his statement read. "Increasingly frequent abductions of citizens, a serious growth in criminal manifestations, corruption and bribe-taking at all levels of government, [and] a worsening economic situation are causing justified outrage and indignation on the part of the republic’s population." The Zyazikov administration’s polices are splitting society and "fraught with unpredictable consequences," Albogachiyev said, Regnum.ru reported on 5 July.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/09/2004 10:02:33 PM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:


Caucasus Corpse Count
Four Russian servicemen were killed and four wounded when their truck ran over a mine in southern Chechnya during a day of rebel attacks that claimed 10 Russian soldiers’ lives in all, an official in the Moscow-backed Chechen administration said Thursday. Meanwhile, gunmen shot and killed the influential, 60-year-old head of a group of elders in the village of Znamenskoye, northern Chechnya, on Wednesday, the official said on condition of anonymity. The Interfax news agency quoted a Russian military spokesman, Maj Gen Ilya Shabalkin, as saying that the community leader, identified as M. Abdullayev, was probably killed because of his opposition to rebel recruitment of young men. The Russian military truck hit a mine in the village of Elistanzhi, in the mountainous Vedeno district, on Wednesday, the official said. The same day, two Russian soldiers were killed when one of them detonated a land mine while searching an abandoned building in the Chechen capital Grozny, the official said.

Four servicemen were killed and six were wounded in rebel attacks on Russian outposts over the past 24 hours, the official said. He said that the body of a member of the Chechen police force was found with bullet wounds in the outskirts of Grozny early Thursday. Rebels frequently target Chechen policemen, seeing them as Russian collaborators. Over the past day, Russian artillery shelled suspected rebel bases in the Vedeno district, and detained at least 120 people on suspicion of having rebel ties, the official said. Interfax quoted Shabalkin as saying Russian forces had destroyed a group of militants who took part in the overnight attack on the neighboring region of Ingushetia last month, which killed 90 people, outside Grozny. The militants attempted to open fire on a group of special services officers who surrounded their car and died when the special forces shot back and their car exploded, Shabalkin said.
No need to pray for sepsis here.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/09/2004 9:55:10 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:


Afghanistan/South Asia
‘Dead’ Al Zulfikar hard boy arrested
Intelligence agencies have arrested a man believed to be Ilyas Siddiqi, an activist of the now defunct Al Zulfikar who the police recorded as having died in the early 1980s in Karachi, sources told Daily Times on Thursday. The sources said Mr Siddiqi was a suspect in the murder of Zahoorul Hasan Bhopali, a close aide of Gen Ziaul Haq, and the chairman of the Tehrik-e-Istehkam-e-Pakistan Council. According to the sources, activists of Al Zulfikar, a militant group founded by Mir Murtaza Bhutto against the Zia regime, led by Mr Siddiqi gunned down Bhopali in the Lines Area, Karachi. An unidentified man was also killed in the incident and police believed that this was Mr Siddiqi, hit by ‘friendly fire’. The day after, Mr Siddiqi’s father received the body and had a funeral at his Nazimabad residence.
"Maw! Who the hell is this? Why do we have to bury him?"
"Sssshhh! Shuddup, Paw!"
Mr Siddiqi, very much alive, fled to Afghanistan where he stayed until the Soviet forces withdrew from that country. Mr Siddiqi returned to Pakistan and ended up in Lahore, where he was finally rumbled at the local cloth market he worked at. A cloth merchant from Karachi, who happened to be Mr Siddiqi’s neighbour in the 1980s, was in Lahore and saw him working at the cloth market. The merchant walked up to him and hugged him, but Mr Siddiqi denied ever even having lived in Karachi. This aroused the suspicion of his employer, who asked a friend to find out the truth about his worker. His friend, with the help of intelligence agencies, found out that he is the Ilyas Siddiqi who ‘died’ over two decades ago. Intelligence agents raided his house and arrested him on Monday.
Posted by: Fred || 07/09/2004 10:41:43 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "I'm not dead . . . in fact, I'm getting better. I think I'll go for a walk."
Posted by: Mike || 07/09/2004 8:29 Comments || Top||

#2  " Wait, I am dead! Honest! You see... I'm a Zombie! An Islamic zombie! Infidel brains! "
Posted by: Charles || 07/09/2004 15:37 Comments || Top||


Sipah-e-Sahaba activist murdered by classmate
An activist of the banned religious group, Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan, was murdered allegedly by his class fellow on Thursday, after they had a disagreement over a religious issue, at a religious seminary in Sargodha, some 170 miles north-east of Multan.
"I'm holier'n you are!"
"Y'are not!"
"Am, too!"
"Go fer yer guns, Muhammad!"
“Muhammad Asif, an activist of the banned Jihadi organisation and a student of a local religious seminary called Siraj-ul-Aloom was killed by his classmate Fasihuddin,” said DPO Sargodha. “The killer has run away but we have arrested three accomplices, Noman Ahmed, Mazahirullah and Muhammad Akbar.” The father of the deceased has refused to get a murder case registered against Fasih and his accomplices. He said that his son laid down his life for the cause of Islam and was a martyr.
"Even if 'at other guy was holier'n he was!"
Posted by: Fred || 07/09/2004 10:45:00 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Well, he's holey now.
Posted by: BH || 07/09/2004 9:50 Comments || Top||

#2  He said that his son laid down his life for the cause of Islam and was a martyr.

Sure, pops. Whatever works for you...
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/09/2004 10:59 Comments || Top||

#3  We need to get more of these religious discussions going. Let's ship over several differing versions of the Koran as a conversation starter.
Posted by: ed || 07/09/2004 11:14 Comments || Top||


Man dressed as woman arrested from congregation
JARANWALA: A man dressed as a woman during a congregation was arrested on Wednesday. Muhammad Ali’s son Adnan, dressed as a woman and sporting a veil, reportedly sat in a gathering of about 100 women being held at Dr M Yasin’s house in Jaranwala’s Shah Jamal Park. Mrs Yasin called the police after she noticed a woman reportedly making obscene gestures. The police came and discovered the charade, beat Adnan and took him to the police station for questioning.
Honest to God, we don't make this stuff up...
Posted by: Fred || 07/09/2004 10:48:27 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Bad Boy in a Burkha.
Posted by: Alaska Paul in Fairbanks || 07/09/2004 0:32 Comments || Top||

#2  "..beat Adnan.." Good Police work.
Posted by: FlameBait93268 || 07/09/2004 1:07 Comments || Top||

#3  a woman reportedly making obscene gestures.

That, and then this.

The police came and discovered the charade, beat Adnan and took him to the police station for questioning.

"So, was it good for you too?"

Posted by: Charles || 07/09/2004 5:59 Comments || Top||

#4  Give the man a medal for Pythonesque services to humanity.
Posted by: Howard UK || 07/09/2004 8:35 Comments || Top||

#5  They's preverts everywhere.
Posted by: Shipman || 07/09/2004 10:31 Comments || Top||

#6  Yup, ugh ugh ugh ugh...
Posted by: Howard UK || 07/09/2004 10:38 Comments || Top||

#7  Man, who'd have thought that Muhammad Ali's son would be a cross dresser (burka style) in that neck of the woods? Maybe the apple does fall far from the tree????
Posted by: BA || 07/09/2004 11:41 Comments || Top||

#8 
The police came and ... beat Adnan
Works for me!

That warms the cockles of my heart. :-p
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 07/09/2004 21:49 Comments || Top||


LTTE denies role in suicide blast
Sri Lanka’s Tamil Tigers on Thursday denied responsibility for a suicide bomb blast in the capital that killed four policemen and the bomber and raised fears for the future of a bid to end a protracted civil war.
"Nope. Nope. Wudn't us."
“The LTTE strongly condemns acts of this nature that cause severe damage to the peace process,” said Daya Master, a spokesman for the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), speaking from their headquarters of Kilinochchi in the rebel-held north. “We deny involvement in Wednesdays’s violence. We assume this act of violence could be the work of anti-peace elements,” he said.
Holmes! How do you do it?
“We strongly condemn this act, which could confuse the people who are hoping for peace and disrupt the prevailing peaceful environment,” the LTTE said in a statement. The Tigers said that alleged military and police backing a breakaway Tiger leader, V Muralitharan, who is better known as Karuna, led to Wednesday’s bombing in a high security zone in Colombo. “We are suspecting that it is the granting of refuge to these groups and the permission given to them to act freely in Colombo that has paved the way for yesterday’s attack in Colombo,” the LTTE statement said.
"But it wudn't us. Nope. Nope."
Posted by: Fred || 07/09/2004 11:03:38 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:


Afghans had brief contact with Mullah Omar
Afghan intelligence agents have spoken with fugitive Taleban founder Mullah Mohammed Omar after commandeering a satellite phone being used by his top aide, an Afghan official claimed yesterday.
"Hullo? Hullo? Is this the amir al-moumeen?"
A man believed to be Omar’s aide, Mullah Sakhi Dad Mujahid, was captured on Tuesday while carrying a satellite telephone containing the phone numbers of top members of the ousted regime, Kandahar intelligence chief Abdullah Laghmanai said. “We contacted Mullah Omar by Mullah Mujahid’s phone,” he said, adding that at first Mujahid was forced to talk to his boss on the phone. “But when he (Omar) realised the situation ... he cut off the phone.” “Assalamu alaikum (Peace on you), where are you?” Mullah Omar asked Mujahid, according to Laghmanai who did not say when the call was made.
"I'm right here, boss! Where're you?"
"Why, I'm at... Saaaaaay! Your voice sounds different!"
"I... ummm... caught a cold. Brutal Afghan winter, y'know."
"It's July."
Mullah Mujahid, as he is known locally, was arrested on Tuesday during a raid in Dara-i-Noor, some 43 miles north of southern Kandahar city. The area is in the rugged border area between south-central Uruzgan and Kandahar provinces and known to US military officials as the “Taleban heartland”. Mujahid served as Mullah Omar’s secretary under the Taleban’s 1996-2001 rule, according to Laghmanai.
"Mullah Mujahid, take a letter!"
“Currently, he was serving as Mullah Omar’s military assistant,” he said.
"Mullah Mujahid, hand me my gun!"
Kandahar military spokesman General Abdul Wasay confirmed the arrest of the senior Taleban official.
"Yup. That's what happened."
“The arrest of Mullah Mujahid will pacify Taleban’s activities in the area,” where he was captured, he said, without elaborating on further details.
"I can say no more!"
Posted by: Dan Darling || 07/09/2004 9:40:13 PM || Comments || Link || [14 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Great script for the new (his forst & last Omar movie;

Mullah Omar- King of the Khyber Fleas

Defeat & No Return!

In Afghani-Colour-O-Rama
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 07/09/2004 4:30 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
1st ID SOLDIERS DESTROY CACHES, VBIED
1st Infantry Division Soldiers found and safely destroyed a vehicle-borne improvised explosive device in Samarra around 1 p.m. July 7. Soldiers found mortars, rocket-propelled grenades and propane tanks in the trunk of the vehicle. 1st Infantry Division Soldiers also found and destroyed about thirty 1,000-pound bombs that were wired for detonation at an airfield near Hawija July 7.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 07/09/2004 9:08:08 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Thirty 1,000 lb bombs. That is some serious ordinance!
Posted by: Alaska Paul in Fairbanks || 07/09/2004 0:43 Comments || Top||



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Two weeks of WOT
Fri 2004-07-09
  Al-Tawhid threatens to kill Bulgarian hostages
Thu 2004-07-08
  Missing Marine at U.S. Embassy in Beirut
Wed 2004-07-07
  5 dead in LTTE suicide bombing
Tue 2004-07-06
  Iraqi boomer kills six 14 at funeral
Mon 2004-07-05
  Hussein family funding the insurgency
Sun 2004-07-04
  6 hurt in Kabul work accident
Sat 2004-07-03
  Iraqi oil-for-food investigator bumped off
Fri 2004-07-02
  Jordan may send troops to Iraq
Thu 2004-07-01
  10 al-Houthi hard boyz bumped off
Wed 2004-06-30
  Sammy to face death penalty
Tue 2004-06-29
  US expels 2 Iranians; videotaping transportation and monuments in NYC
Mon 2004-06-28
  Iraqi handover of power takes place 2 days early
Sun 2004-06-27
  10 Afghans Killed After Vote Registration
Sat 2004-06-26
  Jamali resigns
Fri 2004-06-25
  Another strike on a Fallujah safehouse


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