Several Arab newspapers in the Gulf referred recently to reports regarding the training of Kuwaiti youth in Syria for Jihad in Iraq. The following are excerpts from these reports:
The Kuwaiti daily Al-Rai Al-Aam reported: "Kuwaiti Islamist missionaries (Duâaat) enticed Kuwaiti teenagers with the idea of Jihad, urged them to take part in the Iraqi resistance against the Americans, and arranged their passage to Syria. There, the teenagers met clandestinely [with trainers] who prepared them for combat and secured their crossing into Iraq via the Syrian border.
"Family members of two Kuwaiti youngsters said that a [certain] group in Al-Fuheihil lured their sons aged 16 and 17 and convinced them to go to Syria after requiring them to shave off their beards and to change their hairstyles according to the new fashion ⊠to avoid suspicion. They added that they had discovered their sonsâ intentions through friends who disclosed to them parts of the propaganda and enticement schemes. The relatives gave the information to the [Kuwaiti] foreign ministry, which demanded from the Kuwaiti embassy in Damascus to find the two Kuwaiti teenagers immediately, and to coordinate that with the Syrian authorities in order to prevent their travel to Iraq. The search for them is still going on." [1]
Sources in the Kuwaiti Defense Ministry reported that one of the teenagers contacted his relatives and told them that he was indeed in Syria, but did not disclose his location. [2]
The Saudi daily Al-Watan reported that Syrian sources denied that "the Kuwaiti embassy in Damascus had received a request or notification from the foreign ministry about the Kuwaiti teenagers." According to the Syrian sources, "the report about the Islamist missionaries and their arrangement of travel for boys aged 16 and 17 [to Syria] is incorrect. According to these sources, it is easy to discover [that the report is incorrect] from the way the story was told, where supposedly a certain network exists and part operates in Kuwait, the other in Syria, and the third in Iraq⊠This is illogical considering the tense events [in the region] which uninterrupted crossing between these three countries even more difficult⊠Preparing the travelers to [go to] Damascus in order to fight [in Iraq] then transferring them to Iraq is impossible because the Syrian security and defense authorities are known for their alertness and vigilanceâŠ" [3]
The liberal Arab website Elaph added that a Kuwaiti citizen had recently submitted a complaint to the director general of Kuwaiti State Security, in which he claimed that Sheikh Hamed Al-Ali, professor of Islamic Culture at the College of Basic Education in Kuwait, was the one who recruited his son to fight in Iraq and that he was the one who arranged his travel to Syria, and from there to Iraq. The State Security Office, which investigated the complaint, intends to question Al-Ali. [4]
Al-Ali, who until 2000 was secretary-general of the Salafi Movement in Kuwait, is known for his radical views; recently Kuwaitâs attorney-general launched an investigation of him after he delivered a sermon in one of the mosques in Al-Jahraa region explaining how to prepare explosives, and published further information on the matter on his website. [5]
In another sermon at the Ayash Ibn Rabiâa mosque in the Al-Raqqa region, Al-Ali said: "All the drops of blood from the Shuhadaa [martyrs] in Fallouja, Afghanistan, Palestine, Kosovo, and Chechnya will collect and drain into one river, in which the [lava] of the Jihad volcano will flow."
He added: "The abhorrent political borders set by the international Zio-Crusaders separate the nation from its brethrenâs aid⊠We should walk on the path of Jihad without looking back⊠Victory will come soon and the martyrdom of the leaders [Hamas leader Abd Al-Aziz Al-Rantisi and Chechen fighter commander Abu Al-Waleed] is evidence that victory is nigh." [6]
Saudi security forces have engaged in a daylight shootout with Al Qaida insurgents near the kingdom's capital. Saudi security sources said the shootout took place on Thursday in a village north of Riyad regarded as sympathetic to Al Qaida. They said four Al Qaida insurgents and a Saudi officer were killed. An Interior Ministry statement said a security officer was shot dead and two others were wounded in the gun battle. The ministry said ammunition and weapons were found in the possesion of the gunmen. Security officers said a Saudi security force targeted a suspected Al Qaida stronghold in a rest house in Buraida. The insurgents opened automatic and rocket-propelled grenade fire toward the Saudi force.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/23/2004 12:18:34 AM ||
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Who manufactures RPG's and why are they as common in the ME as popcorn at a theater? Just wondering
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
05/23/2004 1:21 Comments ||
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They're mostly of Soviet/Chinese make, and are available in huge quantities in failed states like Somalia and Yemen, where there are more guns than people.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
05/23/2004 1:48 Comments ||
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NMM: Who manufactures RPG's and why are they as common in the ME as popcorn at a theater? Just wondering
The liberals are always going on about "immoral" US arms exports and the fact that the US is the biggest weapons exporter around. What they leave out is the fact that the US sells almost exclusively to legitimate governments, and the large dollar amounts are due to the high expense and complexity of individual US weapons systems. The Chinese and Russians sell land mines, RPG's and AK-47's to all and sundry - the Chinese even tried to smuggle AK-47's to street gangs in LA.
#4
"...the US is the biggest weapons exporter around."
I had a boss(immigrent son of a very wealthy Argetinian banker)who tried that line with me.He didn't know what to say when I told him you can buy an AK-47 for $50 in parts of Africa.
#6
I've always wondered... were all of these AK-47's and RPG's floating around the third world... originally sold at a profit, or were they dumped on the market for less than the cost of manufacture?
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
05/23/2004 12:53 Comments ||
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Mostly they came from the Sovit Union and China during the Cold War.Now they are manufactured and sold from a lot Third World Countries.I think there are a couple of companys in Eastern Euorpe that crank them out like cord wood.
Death was on Abu Hamza's mind. "Seek the way of death; try to do actions that subject you to death," the Muslim cleric told his audience, most of them young men, as they sat at Friday prayers. "If you die to defend your religion, you are a martyr. ... Die honorably, don't die humiliated."
This was not Gaza or Fallujah. This was Finsbury Park in north London, on a road outside a mosque that was raided by anti-terrorism police more than a year ago and has been closed ever since. Abu Hamza al-Masri, universally known as Abu Hamza, turned to the resistance fighters in Iraq. "They are keen to die honorably for the sake of God and religion," he boomed into a microphone as about two dozen police officers, the same number of journalists and a good many unenthusiastic local residents watched.
Abu Hamza is different things to different people in Britain. To the police and government, he is a dangerous man connected to Islamic terrorist groups; they are trying to strip him of his citizenship and deport him to Yemen, where he is wanted on terrorism charges. To the British tabloid papers and their readers, he is public enemy No. 1, vilified daily and known as Hook. (He says he lost his hands fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan, and he often wears a menacing-looking metal hook on one hand.) To his followers, he is a talismanic source of inspiration and righteousness. And to most Muslims in Britain, he is their worst nightmare -- the most visible face of Islam in a country suffused with anxiety and sometimes hostility toward nearly 2 million Muslims who for the most part are trying to live law-abiding, integrated lives. "Anyone living here who blatantly displays anti-British sentiment should be either prosecuted and incarcerated, or, if from foreign shores, immediately packed off from whence they came," columnist Jane Moore wrote recently in the Sun tabloid, echoing the sort of sentiment that Muslims in Britain fear has become commonplace.
But even as the Muslim establishment in Britain tries to point out that Abu Hamza and his ilk are a small minority, leaders acknowledge that the radicals' message is striking a chord among some disaffected British Muslims. "The danger is they're trying to tap into a genuine grievance in our community," said Inayat Bunglawala, spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, the country's largest Muslim group. Britain's role in the Iraq invasion and the belief that Britain is increasingly pro-Israel are two major issues, he said. Community leaders say that some young Muslims, resentful of the police's treatment, are turning toward figures such as Abu Hamza. "More alienation, more hatred is actually being nourished," said Massoud Shadjareh, chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, which campaigns against what it perceives as police discrimination. Shadjareh, however, is seen by many in the Muslim community as an extremist himself. "The reality of the situation is, thank God, that there hasn't been a single incident of terrorism in Britain committed by a Muslim."
While Shadjareh is correct on that point, the police insist they have prevented attacks through their arrests. They also point to people such as Briton Richard Reid, convicted in the United States of trying to explode a shoe bomb in December 2001 on a trans-Atlantic flight, and French-born Moroccan Zacarias Moussaoui, who is accused of helping to plot the Sept. 11 attacks; both men attended sermons at the Finsbury Park mosque, which used to be Abu Hamza's base.
Another visiting preacher at the mosque was Omar Bakri, the head of an extremist group called Al-Muhajiroun. Bakri, who has described himself as Osama bin Laden's representative in Britain, was linked earlier this month to a suicide bombing in Israel. At a recent meeting in the East End of London, the Syrian-born Bakri sat behind a desk in a community center and addressed a room of about 60 Muslims on the psychology of the suicide bomber, apparently his favorite topic of the moment. Like Abu Hamza, Bakri dwelt at length on the topic of death and martyrdom. He explained that Muslims should welcome death to get to paradise. He said that heaven awaits all martyrs, and he described palaces there that would be so large that it would take more than a hundred years to ride from one end to the other on horseback. Inside, he said, would be endless luxurious rooms, each with diamonds and baths in which would wait beautiful young women.
There is considerable debate within the British security services and the Muslim community as to how dangerous Bakri, Abu Hamza and their supporters are. Although clearly a small percentage of the community, they are attracting some committed followers. "Lots [of British Muslim men] did go to Afghanistan prior to 9/11," said one moderate Muslim leader, speaking on condition of anonymity. He said that he personally knew people who had trained in Al-Qaida camps in Afghanistan and that he passed on this information to the police. These men are now under close surveillance, he said.
Bunglawala, spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, attends mosque in Ilford, Essex. Recently, someone put up 15 photographs taken from video footage shot by the Arabic news channel Al-Jazeera inside the Iraqi city of Fallujah. People at the mosque gathered around the images, which showed Iraqi children apparently killed during the U.S. siege of the city, which lasted most of April. Witnesses say hundreds of Iraqi civilians died. Arabs and Muslims all over the world have been sending the pictures to each other, Bunglawala said. As they stood gazing at the pictures, congregants at the mosque "equated those killings with terrorism," Bunglawala said. "There's a feeling that enough is enough. I certainly heard a lot of support and admiration for the resistance." The question of whether that support will produce new volunteers such as Reid or Omar Sharif and Asif Hanif, who left England to become suicide bombers in Israel last year, is what concerns both the Muslim community and the British authorities.
Amid the trials, the arrests, the fear, the radical preaching and the moderates' marching to proclaim Islam's love of peace, some august British institutions are trying to further understanding rather than suspicion. Eton College, Britain's most famous private high school, recently announced the hiring of its first Muslim cleric in its 564-year history. At the start of the next academic year, Monawar Hussein, 34, will take up his post at the school, which has produced 19 British prime ministers and has educated numerous royals. The school also will start offering Arabic language lessons. The young imam has no time for the likes of Abu Hamza and Bakri. "All they're doing is using the faith to further their political agendas," he said. His appointment, he said, is "groundbreaking; it's historical." And when he shows up to teach the future leaders of the country that once ruled much of the Islamic and Arab worlds, he will tell them about a very different Islam from that preached by the men who appear nearly every day in the British papers. "Islam embraces diversity, love and compassion," he said. "It's about caring for other people."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/23/2004 12:33:20 AM ||
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ahh well its my birthday so am in a good mood and dont want hooky and friends to spoil it . soooo
Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big old storm right in the eye and says, "Give me your best shot. I can take it."
Big Trouble in Little China - pure class and slighty off topic :P
#3
Omar Bakri and Captain Hook drawing attention in the UK
If by "drawing attention" they mean "hourly cavity searches," then that's a good thing.
"If you die to defend your religion, you are a martyr. ... Die honorably, don't die humiliated."
One must suppose that life as a murderous fanatic is merely constant and ongoing "humiliation" (there's that word again!). Perhaps it only ends when the detonator contacts close.
#4
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - Isaac Newton
Action : "Seek the way of death; try to do actions that subject you to death," the Muslim cleric told his audience, most of them young men, as they sat at Friday prayers. "If you die to defend your religion, you are a martyr. ... Die honorably, don't die humiliated." - Abu Hamza al-Masri
Reaction : Anyone living here who blatantly displays anti-British sentiment should be either prosecuted and incarcerated, or, if from foreign shores, immediately packed off from whence they came," columnist Jane Moore (Sun Tabloid)
#5
BigEd, wasn't it you asking about my reference to Hook Boy? This is the guy
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 11:42 Comments ||
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Reaction : Anyone living here who blatantly displays anti-British sentiment should be either prosecuted and incarcerated, or, if from foreign shores, immediately packed off from whence they came," columnist Jane Moore (Sun Tabloid)
While I neither advocate nor enjoy such isolationism, it is precisely this sort of backlash against Muslims in general that I have been predicting for some time now. Admittedly, this is no big surprise but I can only speculate as to how long it will take for those of the Islamic faith to understand how terrorists and militant Islamists are slitting all of their collective throats.
#7
It's a theological flaw I believe, my dear Mr. Zensler. The last Muslim theologian of any note to recommend anything other than a literal interpretation of Muslim holy scriptures was Averroes almost thousand years ago. So Muslims, even those who try to sneak like cockroaches into the well-scrubbed western kitchens, are stuck with their story.
And the story is that God has as His goal the imposition of Shari'a Law upon all mankind. There have been stupid despots rising in the east since time immemorial, but this recent lot waving the Koran is very hard to bear.
They are committed to the violent overthrow of the laws under which they have chosen to live as guests from far away. And there's no way out from beneath the scriptures.
#8
"Islam embraces diversity, love and compassion," he said. "It's about caring for other people."
Yeah, they care about other people, all right. Check out the Nick Berg snuffy video and listen to all the nutcases chanting "Allahu Akbar!" while they saw his head off with a dull knife.
The Brits (and us as well) better understand our enemy and act upon the knowledge before we are up to our arms in this behavior. After all, the UK has honor killings of daughters already.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/23/2004 14:35 Comments ||
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They are committed to the violent overthrow of the laws under which they have chosen to live as guests from far away.
And if all Muslims truly seek world-wide imposition of Shari'a law, then their swift repayment shall be aught but death and quite possibly the extinction of their entire religion and its practitioners as a whole. If such is their goal, when that final day comes to pass, I shall not mourn the loss.
The UN atomic agency is investigating reports that North Korea secretly sent uranium to Libya when Tripoli was trying to develop nuclear weapons. Diplomats quoted by The New York Times said the agency had found evidence that Pyongyang provided Libya with nearly two tons of uranium in early 2001. Whoa Nellie! Whoâd a thunk?
Libya handed over the uranium to the US in January this year, after deciding to abandon its quest for nuclear weapons. Pakistanâs former nuclear salesman chief AQ "Letâs Make a Nuclear Deal" Khan ran a huge secret nuclear black market. The UNâs International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) is stifling investigating various leads emerging from interviews with former members of Mr Khanâs network and their associates. IAEA spokesman Mark Gwozdecky told BBC News Online that the investigation "spans three continents and involves entities or individuals in at least eight countries". He said the IAEA had not yet reached any conclusions about anything, ever the alleged North Korea connection. The newspaper said the uranium shipped to Libya could not be used as nuclear fuel unless it was enriched in centrifuges, which the Libyans were assembling as part of a $100m programme to purchase equipment from the Khan network. It quoted US officials as saying the discovery of a North Korean connection was an intelligence success springing directly from Libyaâs decision to dismantle its nuclear weapons programme and the subsequent drive to smash the Khan network. Abdul Qadeer Khan has admitted selling nuclear secrets to every-f&%king-body Libya, Iran and North Korea. Intelligence services are trying to find out whether North Korea made similar clandestine sales to other countries or even terror groups. Kim said he didnât. What! Thatâs not good enough for you?
Actually, I think he said he didn't one day, he did the next day, he might have the day after that, and he was gonna the day after that...
According to the IAEA, Libya produced a small amount of plutonium - but not enough to make a bomb. Well, this pretty much zeros out any faint wiggles on Kimâs credibility meter. Time to plant his @ss and quick.
Posted by: Zenster ||
05/23/2004 10:31:32 AM ||
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In spite of the general dismissal of the importance of Qadaffi's actions after the fall of Baghdad, it appears to be the biggest domino to fall. Libya provides a window into the belly of the beast and makes it very difficult for thinking people to make jokes about WMDs and the proliferation thereof.
Fox News just interviewed a man who said that the US knew before the invasion of Iraq that there was a massive presence of Iraqi nuclear scientists in Libya working on nuclear weapons.
#2
...and makes it very difficult for thinking people to make jokes about WMD's and the proliferation thereof.
Too bad there aren't enough thinking people to go around.
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
05/23/2004 12:54 Comments ||
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I heard about the Iraqi scientists in Libya a while ago, but wondered what had happened to that story. Any enterprizing reporters out there who would care to find out the details behind this? Or would the possibility that it might be true go against official media dogma?
Loftus has been on the story for awhile. He gave a speech to Inspiration and Education: UJC Young Leadership Conference 2003: The biggest buzz of excitement caused at the conference by far was by a speaker called John Loftus. He has previously spoken at the UM campus before about Sami Al-Arian, the infamous University of South Florida professor now being indicted under terrorism charges. Loftus is a private attorney who works pro-bono to help hundreds of intelligence agents obtain lawful permission to declassify and publish sensitive and top-secret documents. He once held some of the highest security clearances in the world, with special access to NATO Cosmic, CIA code word, and Top Secret Nuclear Files. Loftus is the author of several books including "The Secret Wars Against the Jews" and is also the President of the St. Petersburg Holocaust Museum in Florida. All of this is quite extraordinary when you consider he is a nice Irish Catholic boy!
Loftus created such a stir because of his claims based on his supposed contacts in the intelligence community (he went on air with CBS in an interview after speaking to us to announce his assertions about Saddam Hussein). He maintained the following, believe it or no. Itâs pretty fantastical, like a spy novel, but who knows!
First, he asserted that Saddam Hussein is dead, killed in that first surgical strike at dawn the day the war began. US Special Forces were on the ground in Baghdad before the onset of hostilities and were scouting out locations where they believed he might show up. At night they spotted what they thought was Saddam and his sons and some of their entourage going into a house with a large underground hidden bunker. They took pictures of them, particularly the ears (yes, the ears) as apparently they are the only part of the body that cannot be altered surgically. Intelligence verified it was truly them and missiles as well as a many tons of bunker busting bombs were dropped on the site. As you can imagine it would be impossible for any living thing to sustain such an assault.
Secondly, Loftus said that France's complicity in arms sales as well as Russia's is going to become shockingly clear (a fact that in regards to Russia is already coming true) He also mentioned that France has some $252 billion in contracts with Iraq over the next decade! When questioned about Saudi Arabia he alleged that many an ex-diplomat and analyst is on the Saudi "retirement" payroll. They are not given money while in office as this would constitute a bribe but there is a tacit understanding that they will be dealt with generously in their retirement.
Finally, Loftus maintained that US Intelligence and allied Intelligence have uncovered a massive collusion to produce and sell weapons of mass destruction (WMD) to terrorist groups. North Korea was to provide the raw material, Iraq the scientists and Libya the facilities. He asserted that Libya has been busy hallowing out a mountain (spy novel stuff again) to store and create WMD. This was the reason why Iraqi scientists were not available to be interviewed by inspectors, many were in Libya. Pretty fantastical stuff indeed but Loftus is a very engaging speaker and highly entertaining to boot!
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/23/2004 22:28 Comments ||
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AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - A Dutch thief left an apologetic letter and promised a donation after he realized he was burgling a charity that helps the poor and elderly. The thiefâs remorseful handwritten letter praised charity group Humanitas for its work and agonized over the effect the burglary would have on his conscience. "I have only eaten some biscuits from the tin and some Easter eggs. When Iâm less hard up I will make a small contribution to your account," said the account of the letter published on the Humanitas Web site (www.humanitas.nl). Humanitas said it has no plans to file a police report on the break-in at its office in Arnhem, near the German border. "Of course itâs a nuisance there was a burglary, but it leaves a good feeling that there are still good thieves," the Web site said.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/23/2004 3:11:23 AM ||
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A Muslim cleric deported last month for condoning wife beating and espousing violence returned to France on Saturday after a court suspended his expulsion. Abdelkader Bouziane returned to this southeastern French city on a flight from his native Algeria but faces legal troubles that could lead to another expulsion, his lawyer, Mahmoud Hebia, said in a telephone interview. Bouzianeâs arrived back two days after the Turkish director of a Paris mosque, Midhat Guler, was deported based on what the Interior Ministry said was a threat to public order. It said that the Turkish imam, or prayer leader, led a Turkish Islamic extremist movement, Kaplan, "that preaches the use of violence and terrorism." France fears that some imams are spreading messages of violence in their mosques or values that do not adhere to the western model. No, never! Smashing blokes, used to send their mothers flowers and all that!
An imam from the western city of Brest also has been expelled. The 52-year-old Bouziane â who has 16 children from two wives â condoned wife beating in the case of adultery in an interview with a local publication, Lyon Mag. Asked about stoning, he agreed it was permissable. He has said that the Quran, the Muslim holy book, authorizes such punishment â an interpretation rejected by most Muslims. Okay, so there we have it. "Two wives." Why isnât this sod being brought up on charges of bigamy?
Bouziane was given the green light to return after an administrative court suspended the expulsion order delivered by the Interior Ministry. His lawyer is trying to get the expulsion order definitively annuled. At the same time, a state prosecutor has opened an investigation against Bouziane on charges of excusing a crime and encouraging harm to others. Drop the cheese and get back to work guys! This case isnât going to prosecute itself, ya know?
#1
The admimistrative court will kill the expulsion because they do not want a confrontation, and the resulting riots, injuries, and civil discord, my gut tells me. And when a country backs down so many times, like France has done, the seeds of its own destruction grow tall.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/23/2004 14:46 Comments ||
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Two wives or a wife and several mistresses, it's all tres chic.
Posted by: ed ||
05/23/2004 17:11 Comments ||
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The odd crew of longtime extremists and radicalized gangsters accused of committing the March train bombings here nourished their holy war with holy water. And hashish. The water came from Mecca, the Muslim holy city in Saudi Arabia. The conspirators drank it during purification rituals at a barbershop that was an after-hours prayer hall for adherents of Takfir wal Hijra, a secretive Islamic sect allegedly active in the criminal underworld of Europe and North Africa. The hashish came from Morocco, European investigators believe. The ideologues of the terrorist cell justified selling drugs as a weapon of jihad. The Moroccan dealer who financed the plot traded a load of hashish for the dynamite that slaughtered 191 people aboard commuter trains on March 11. The drug trafficker led the cell along with a Tunisian economics student, a duo whose disparity reflects the evolving nature of Islamic terrorism. Both blew themselves up after a standoff with Spanish police last month. As investigators analyze the Madrid bombings and try to prevent new attacks, the importance of the drug connection intrigues them.
It's pretty old hat to us by now...
The predominantly Moroccan cell came together with remarkable speed, teaming a drug gang with students and shopkeepers and raising the specter of "narco-terrorism," a phenomenon more commonly associated with such nations as Colombia. It also offers a textbook example of the potentially explosive combination of Islamic extremism and organized criminal networks. "It worries us very much," said a Spanish police commander. "Until now, Islamic terrorism and drugs were two separate areas. Now you are not sure where to look. You are not sure whom you are dealing with. I don't know of any previous cases like this in the West."
Both the drug trade and terrorism are tools to be used to achieve ends. The ends can be the accumulation of filthy lucre, but more usually it's the accumulation of power, which in most cases amounts to the same thing. Ask any member of the Council of Boskone...
Madrid's hidden jihad reflects a wider effort by Islamic networks in Europe and North Africa to tap the violent energy of criminal networks of diverse ethnicities and specialties, according to anti-terrorism officials. In Italy, a member of the Camorra, the Neapolitan Mafia, converted to Islam and recently set up an exchange of arms for drugs between the Camorra and Islamic terrorists, according to an Italian prosecutor. In the prisons of Belgium and neighboring countries, recruitment by Islamic groups has accelerated during the worldwide terrorism offensive stoked by the war in Iraq, said Belgian police anti-terrorism commander Alain Grignard. "The intermingling of terrorist networks with the criminal milieu is becoming more and more important," said Grignard, an expert on Islam. "It's in prisons where political operatives recruit specialists whom they need to run their networks â specialists in fraudulent documents, arms trafficking, etc. They use concepts that justify crime, that transform it into redemption.... The prisons of today are producing the terrorists of tomorrow."
If they weren't in jug, though, the mosques and social clubs and beer joints would be producing the terrorists of tomorrow. Sociopaths tend to end up in jug at one point or the other, which makes prisons an ideal recruiting venue. But not the only venue...
European investigators worry in particular about North Africa, source of a diaspora of millions of immigrants in Europe. Most of the alleged train bombers lived divided existences, shuttling between Madrid and their native Morocco, particularly Tangier and Tetouan. Those northern cities are capitals of thriving criminal mafias and a fundamentalist movement that has also bred ideologues and soldiers linked to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and last year's suicide bombings in Casablanca. Morocco's proximity to Spain makes it a gateway for the legal and illegal movement of people, goods and ideas. The implications for Europe compare with the threat to California if the Mexican border region were a hotbed of Islamic terrorism. The danger also spills south into poor, vulnerable countries including Mali, Mauritania and Niger, where terrorists are turning to long-standing smuggling networks that provide a rare source of fast cash, officials say.
That's because vacuums tend to get filled...
In some ways, terrorism and gangsterism are old companions. Heroin crops have helped fund the Taliban in Afghanistan and Hezbollah in Lebanon. Although the director of France's lead anti-terrorism agency has not seen a recent expansion of ties between gangsters and terrorists in his country, he says extremists in France, which has Europe's biggest Muslim population, have a tradition of working with criminals and dabbling in robbery, drugs and fraud.
"So what's to expand?"
"The links with drug traffickers were established perhaps in a more concrete fashion with the attacks of Madrid, but in France most of the [extremist] structures that we have dismantled have been financed by crime," said Pierre de Bousquet de Florian, chief of France's DST intelligence service. "What is difficult to prove judicially are the links between crime and terrorism. When you arrest them they are stickup gangs, they are counterfeiters, they are small-time dealers.... It's difficult to show that the money has served or will serve for terrorist activity." The cash and firepower of the Madrid dealers clearly drove the attack that influenced a national election and divided the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, making Al Qaeda's first strike in Europe its most devastating since those on New York City and the Pentagon in 2001. The blurring of criminality and extremism went further and faster than the pre-Sept. 11 pattern in Europe, when convicts recruited by the Al Qaeda terrorist network typically passed through radical London mosques, training camps in Afghanistan and battlegrounds such as Chechnya. The train bombers caught international counter-terrorism agencies off-guard, even though some were known to security forces. One suspect in the bombing plot was an informant for an anti-drug unit of the paramilitary Civil Guard, according to police. Ironically, the suspects' involvement in drug trafficking helped mask their extremism.
Moreover, the Takfir wal Hijra sect to which most of the suspects belonged cultivates stealth. The name means "Excommunication and Exile." The order was founded in Egypt in the 1960s by an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. They set up a society in exile in the desert. Takfir's disconcertingly flexible theology attracts criminals and drug addicts; it also influences radicals who do not belong to the movement. Takfiris accept drinking and vice and encourage short hair, fashionable dress and an outwardly Western lifestyle as a holy warrior's disguise against detection. The clean-cut, well-groomed ways of the lead Sept. 11 hijackers were a Takfir-style undercover strategy. The sect has figured in terrorism cases in Europe, notably a foiled 2001 plot against the U.S. Embassy in Paris in which a Tunisian â a former soccer player with a classic Takfiri profile of drug addiction, dealing and jailhouse conversion â planned a suicide bombing. In the Takfir creed of outward conformity and internal exile, crime is a means of waging war against the West. "Crime that was once practiced with no trace of an Islamic reference, once they have converted, rather naturally acquires an objective, a justification, a religious legitimization," said De Bousquet de Florian, the French intelligence chief. "Because the base of Takfir doctrine explains that crime can be committed for the good of the cause."
That doctrine shaped the Moroccan networks involved in the train attacks and the Casablanca bombings, which authorities say were carried out by youths radicalized in the Sidi Moumen slum, a center of criminal rackets. An imam linking the two cases was Hicham Temsamani, whose brother is a drug lord from the Rif region of Morocco. Before the Casablanca attacks, Temsamani allegedly helped organize terrorist cells in Tangier. He also spent time in Madrid, where he served as a spiritual guide at early meetings and Takfir rituals of the future train bombers at such places as the Paparazzi barbershop in the Lavapies neighborhood, investigators say. Spanish police arrested Temsamani last summer and extradited him to Morocco in the Casablanca case. But his acolytes kept praying and scheming as two leaders emerged: Jamal Ahmidan and Sarhane Abdelmajid Fakhet. Ahmidan's aliases were "Mowgli" and "El Chino," distinctly nonreligious monikers that show his easy familiarity with Spain's street subculture. Ahmidan, 33, and his brothers allegedly peddled large quantities of hashish smuggled from Morocco and the the Spanish enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla in North Africa. Ahmidan had done time in Spain and his native Morocco. Police believe that he converted to radical Islam behind bars within the last few years. Despite his reputation for fanaticism at the Madrid mosque he attended, Ahmidan also frequented discotheques and bars. He struck his Spanish neighbors as friendly and flashy. They remember him zooming by on a motorcycle with his long-haired girlfriend, a Spanish woman with a taste for revealing outfits. In contrast, Fakhet, 37, seemed a driven and tormented intellectual. The sole Tunisian of the group arrived in Spain eight years ago and won a government scholarship to study economics. His teenage wife, the sister of a reputed terrorist arrested in the Casablanca case, wore a head-to-toe burka.
There's that other pattern: marry within the network, preferably to girls who're under age...
Fakhet worked as a real estate agent, impressing his bosses with his sales talents, but exasperating them with his disregard for rules and schedules. Fakhet's rage, police say, resulted partly from his reverence for Imad Eddin Barakat Yarkas, the accused Syrian-Spanish boss of a Madrid Al Qaeda cell that was dismantled in 2001. Fakhet and a dozen other accused train bombers were longtime associates of the Barakat cell, police say. With Barakat in jail, Fakhet made it his mission to take care of Barakat's wife and six children. "Their situation inspired and infuriated the Tunisian," the Spanish commander said. "He was the one who kept insisting that the group had to do something here in Spain. Why go to Afghanistan if you can fight jihad here?"
Only a few of more than 30 suspects in the case had trained in Afghan camps. That may explain why the bombings were not suicide attacks, a break with Al Qaeda's usual style. Police believe that Barakat's ideological influence set the stage for Fakhet's embrace of Ahmidan and his crew of half a dozen drug traffickers. Fakhet, seen as the dominant figure in the cell, had contact with Ahmidan as early as late 2002, but the other traffickers surfaced in the plot only a few months before the bombings, police say. Although Barakat claimed in recent court testimony that he condemned the bombings and Takfir wal Hijra, years of surveillance suggested that Barakat had a Takfir-style philosophy, police say. "We know that when Barakat had been consulted in the past, he justified drug trafficking if it was for Islam," a top investigator said. "He saw it as part of jihad."
The traffickers took charge of obtaining money, weapons, phones, cars, safe houses and other infrastructure. Ahmidan rented a rickety rural cottage from one of Barakat's associates on Jan. 28, turning it into a headquarters and bomb factory. He enlisted Spanish jailhouse contacts to arrange the exchange of 66 pounds of hashish for 220 pounds of dynamite stolen from a mine in the Asturias region in late February. Days before he and a dozen others allegedly planted the backpack bombs on four commuter trains, Ahmidan flew to the island of Majorca, apparently to arrange a sale of hashish and Ecstasy, police say. The cash went into a war chest for follow-up plots, among them a foiled attempt to blow a high-speed Madrid-Seville train off its tracks.
Police cornered seven of the fugitives at an apartment in suburban Leganes on April 3. The suspects blew up the place, killing themselves and a SWAT officer after a standoff in which they chanted ritualistically, draped themselves in sheets of martyr's white and called their families to say goodbye. Six of the corpses have been identified: They included those of Fakhet, Ahmidan and three dealers. Fifteen more suspects are in jail, eight are fugitives and several others are free but face lesser charges.
Despite the homegrown nature of the operation, police believe that the Madrid group followed orders from an Al Qaeda mastermind with a sophisticated understanding of Spain. The inquiry has focused on Mustafa Setmariam Nasar, a Syrian-Spanish jihadi trained in combat and ideology. Nasar edited an extremist journal in London in the mid-1990s, then went to Afghanistan to run a training camp for Syrians, investigators say. He is believed to be in Iran. Nasar's stature in Al Qaeda today compares to that of his Jordanian associate Abu Musab Zarqawi, the alleged leader of networks in Iraq, the Middle East and Europe, police say. Both are considered potential masterminds.
That might be a hint as to who's going to replace Zarqawi, assuming we eventually get him...
The anger of extremists and criminals toward society came together in Madrid, expressing itself in the indiscriminate cruelty of the bombings. As for the holy water that anointed the alliance, the rituals show the improvised, arcane beliefs of some fundamentalists, police say. The practice of drinking water imported from Mecca to prepare for martyrdom is part religion, part superstition, experts on Islam said. "They drank the water to purify their souls," the Spanish police commander said. "To ask forgiveness in advance for the crimes they were going to commit."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/23/2004 12:38:45 AM ||
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Basque guerrilla group ETA rejected Spanish government proposals for limited reforms of the constitution on Saturday and said it was time to push for Basque self-determination. Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero -- elected in a surprise victory days after al Qaeda-linked train bombings in March -- has proposed limited reform of the statutes governing Spain's autonomous regions. Spain's regional governments have power over issues such as education and health care and the Basque country, with its own police force, enjoys the highest degree of autonomy.
Basque broadcaster EiTB said on its Web site that its radio station Euskadi Irratia had received a statement from ETA saying the proposed reforms to the statutes governing regional autonomy were not what the Basque country needed. EiTB quoted the statement written in Basque as saying: "it is time to defend the right to self-determination which is protected by international law." The guerrillas also said in the statement they were willing to reach an agreement that respected the rights of the Basque country. Last month local media reported rumours that ETA was planning to call a ceasefire, but so far none has been announced.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/23/2004 12:16:44 AM ||
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#1
Once again the shining minds of Eourope have proved that appeasement works, NOT!
#2
Once buns-up kneeling, always buns-up kneeling.
Zapatero had better own stock in Vaseline. An expert proctologist probably would be a good idea too. Why bother negotiating with someone who rolls over like a good doggie? One can only imagine the long list of "admirers" Zapatero has penciled in on his dance card.
Excerped from Inside the Ring - by Bill Gertz and Rowan Scarborough
Seymour Hersh has lobbed another bomb at Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and his staff in the New Yorker magazine. This time, the Pulitzer Prize winner says Mr. Rumsfeld is responsible for prisoner abuses at Abu Ghraib prison because the secretary wants terrorists killed or captured.
What the hell else would you have us do with them? Give them a stern talking-to, like the Soddies? Give them money and government sinecures like Yemen?
The Pentagon vehemently denied the charge, and the CIA called the story "fundamentally wrong."
Ummm... The answer I'd have given would have been "Hell, yes!"
This is not the first time Mr. Hersh and Mr. Rumsfeld have clashed. Mr. Rumsfeld has called some of Mr. Hershâs reporting "fiction." Take, for instance, a May 12 , 2003, story that accused Mr. Rumsfeldâs staff of being a "cabal." The Pentagon believed the article was so inaccurate it mailed a protest letter on June 9 to New Yorker Editor David Remnick. "I am writing to express my concern over the inaccuracies in your May 12 Seymour Hersh story on Secretary Rumsfeld and the Department of Defense," wrote Bryan G. Whitman, a senior public affairs official. "There are more inaccuracies than can be addressed in this letter, and it is particularly disappointing given the time and effort taken by my staff to ensure The New Yorker has its facts straight prior to publication. During the week of April 28, my staff received from a New Yorker fact-checker a fax with 20 questions regarding the Office of Special Plans and Abe Shulsky, the former director of that office. Mr. Shulsky sat down with those press officers over a period of two days to answer those questions. Once the answers were compiled, they were sent by fax to The New Yorker and their receipt confirmed. When the article appeared the following week, we were disturbed to see that many of the answers provided were left out. In fact, in some instances, the article made statements in direct contradiction to the facts we provided. ... I do hope that you will ensure that this kind of lapse does not recur." Mr. Remnick, a former reporter for The Washington Post, has stood by his reporter.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/23/2004 5:21:46 PM ||
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This time, the Pulitzer Prize winner says Mr. Rumsfeld is responsible for prisoner abuses at Abu Ghraib prison because the secretary wants terrorists killed or captured.
The Secretary wants terrorists killed or captured. Works for me. Maybe Mr. Hersch would rather take care of them himself. Mr. Hersch can write all kind of outlandish allegations with no consequences because people like Mr. Rumsfeldt and dedicated men and women in the military are protecting his 1st amendment rights. Hersch only knows how to tear down. He does not know how to build up.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/23/2004 19:40 Comments ||
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The fax mentioned here is the one referred to in this NRO article, as linked by Rantburg here.
That was the article (which some found confusing) detailing how some of Hersh's information came from retired Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, with some input by Larouchie Jeff Steinberg.
EFL - this interview is about two weeks old but several of us saw Loftus on Fox today. If you visit his websight you will see that he is very pro-Israel - although he is Irish Catholic - but he is marginally anti-Bush.
Week after week after week after week," said Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Mass., about President Bushâs rationale for going to war with Iraq, "we were told lie after lie after lie after lie." Were we?
Jordan recently seized 20 tons of chemicals trucked in by confessed al-Qaida members who brought the stuff in from Syria. The chemicals included VX, Sarin and 70 others. But the media seems curiously incurious about whether one could reasonably trace this stuff back to Iraq. Had the terrorists released a "toxic cloud," Jordanian officials say 80,000 would have died!
So, I interviewed terrorism expert John Loftus, who once held some of the highest security clearances in the world. Loftus, a former Army officer, served as a Justice Department prosecutor. He investigated CIA cases of Nazi war criminals for the U.S. attorney general. Author of several books, Loftus once received a Pulitzer Prize nomination.
John Loftus: Thereâs a lot of reason to think (the source of the chemicals) might be Iraq. We captured Iraqi members of al-Qaida, whoâve been trained in Iraq, planned for the mission in Iraq, and now theyâre in Jordan with nerve gas. Thatâs not the kind of thing you buy in a grocery store. You have to have obtained it from someplace.
Larry Elder: They couldnât have obtained it from Syria?
Loftus: Syria does have the ability to produce certain kinds of nerve gasses, but in small quantities. The large stockpiles were known to be in Iraq. The best U.S. and allied intelligence say that in the 10 weeks before the Iraq war, Saddamâs Russian adviser told him to get rid of all the nerve gas. It would be useless against U.S. troops; the rubber suits were immune to it. So they shipped it across the border to Syria and Lebanon and buried it.
Now, in the last few weeks, thereâs a controversy that Syria has been trying to get rid of this stuff. Theyâre selling it to al-Qaida is one supposition. We know the Sudanese government demanded that the Syrian government empty its warehouse in Khartoum where theyâve been hiding illegal missiles along with components of weapons of mass destruction.
But thereâs no doubt these guys confessed on Jordanian television that they received the training for this mission in Iraq ... And from the description it appears this is the form of nerve gas known as VX. Itâs very rare, and very tough to manufacture ... one of the most destructive chemical mass-production weapons that you can use ... They wanted to build three clouds, a mile across, of toxic gas. A whole witchâs brew of nasty chemicals that were going to go into this poison cloud, and this would have gone over shopping malls, hospitals ...
Elder: You said that the Russians told Saddam, "There is going to be an invasion. Get rid of your chemical and biological weapons."
Loftus: Sure. It would only bring the United Nations down on their heads if they were shown to really have weapons of mass destruction. Itâs not generally known, but the CIA has found 41 different material breaches where Saddam did have a weapons of mass destruction program of various types. It was completely illegal. But no one could find the stockpiles. And the liberal press seems to be focusing on that.
Elder: It seems to me that this is a huge, huge story.
Loftus: Itâs embarrassing to the (press). Theyâve staked their reputations that this stuff wasnât there. And now all of a sudden we have al-Qaida agents from Iraq showing up with weapons of mass destruction.
Elder: David Kay said, in an interim report, that there was a possibility that WMD components were shipped to Syria.
Loftus: A possibility? We had a Syrian journalist who defected to Paris in January. The guy is dying of cancer, and he said, "Look, my friends in Syrian intelligence told me exactly where the stuff is buried." He named three sites in Syria, and the Israelis have confirmed the three sites. They know where the stuff is, but the problem is that the United States canât just go around invading Arab countries ... We know from Israeli and defectorsâ intelligence that the son of the Syrian defense minister was paid 50 million bucks to bring the stuff across the border and bury it.
Elder: Why would al-Qaida attack Jordan?
Loftus: Jordan is an ally of the United States. Itâs at peace with Israel. And Jordan has a long history of trying to prosecute terrorists ... There are a lot of reasons ... They want to make an example of them. They want to terrorize as many of the Arab states as possible. This is sort of a political dream for the president. The worst nightmare is al-Qaida gets weapons of mass destruction from Iraq. And it looks like itâs coming true. A Syria /Iraq /al-Qaida /WMD connection? Why, this calls for a congressional investigation.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/23/2004 10:41:15 PM ||
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A Florida soldier convicted Friday of deserting his U.S. Army unit in Iraq is the son of Nicaraguaâs most prominent leftist singer, who wrote the line "Letâs fight the Yankee, enemy of humanity" into Nicaraguaâs former Sandinista anthem. The father, Carlos Mejia Godoy, condemned Fridayâs verdict, saying his son, Staff Sgt. Camilo Mejia, was convicted and sentenced to a year in jail and a bad conduct discharge in retaliation for having mentioned abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers. "We expected this verdict," Mejia Godoy said, noting "my sonâs situation worsened after he bravely revealed the torture he had witnessed against Iraqis." Mejia Godoy has said in recent interviews that he opposed his son joining the U.S. army, but didnât try to stop him.
Mejia Godoy wrote scores of leftist-oriented songs, including the anthem for the Sandinista National Liberation Front, which ruled Nicaragua from 1979 to 1989. The line about "Yankee, enemy of humanity" had always proved controversial, and the Sandinista Party later dropped it from the anthem. Mejia Godoy said his son "was prepared for this and whatever came, because he took up this challenge with all the firmness and dignity of his Nicaraguan heart."
The younger Mejia, of Miami Beach, Fla., in fact listed his citizenship as Costa Rican, and based part of his defense against the desertion charge on an obscure, old Costa Rica-U.S. treaty which exempts citizens of that country from forced service in U.S. militias. Camilo Mejia said he joined the Florida National Guard to help pay for college. He was born in Nicaragua, but his mother, at that point separated from Mejia Godoy, took Camilo Mejia to live in Costa Rica at the age of one. Mejia, 28, turned himself in in March and sought status as a conscientious objector.
#1
By "Forced Militia Service" I personally would constue that to mean the draft. He willingly joined the National Gaurd even if it was only to get college money. Guess he wasn't listening when they told him he could get activated. Of course if the old man had helped out he could of avoided the whole unpleasantness. Leftist song writing doesn't pay too well I guess
excepted from Wash Times - Inside the Ring Early warning
John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, warned months ago that Iraqâs hidden weapons of mass destruction may be intermingled with its huge stocks of conventional arms. Mr. Shaw wrote an Oct. 28 letter to Gen. John Abizaid, commander of the U.S. Central Command, asking for the commandâs help in tracking down companies and individuals who violated U.S. law and the international arms embargo by shipping arms to Saddam Husseinâs regime. Mr. Shaw stated in the letter that he had information showing "there is a high probability of [weapons of mass destruction] munitions being intermingled everywhere in Iraq with conventional weapons." That scenario played this month when two chemical munitions -- one containing the blister agent mustard and one containing the nerve agent sarin -- were found by U.S. forces in Iraq. The improvised bomb found Saturday was a 155 mm artillery shell that insurgents apparently did not know was filled with two chemicals that make sarin when the round is fired. The shell partially exploded and a small quantity of sarin was released, slightly injuring two U.S. soldiers.
Funding shortfall
Defense and military officials are scrambling throughout the Pentagon to find money to help pay for the war in Iraq. The funding shortfall for this year is in the hundreds of millions. The military estimates that it will be $4 billion short in next yearâs operating accounts. Defense officials tell us that aides to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld are looking at all areas of the defense budget and plan to raid arms programs and operations and maintenance accounts to pay for the war. The main fear of many weapons builders is that the budget reprogramming will seriously damage ongoing weapons development and production and shut down entire production lines if the money meant for the programs is taken away.
Donnellyâs victory
It was certainly a significant legal victory for Elaine Donnelly and her Center for Military Readiness. And it could also be one of the First Amendmentâs and the pressâs more important court wins, even for reporters who sided with Mrs. Donnellyâs legal opponent. This week, the Supreme Court refused to hear an appeal from Carey Dunai Lohrenz, who sued Mrs. Donnelly for libel. Mrs. Donnelly, based on internal training documents and a Navy instructor pilot (now-retired Lt. Patrick J. Burns), put out a report accusing the Navy of granting Mrs. Lohrenz favors in 1995 to graduate her as one of the militaryâs first female combat fighter pilots. Mrs. Lohrenz and the Navy denied the report.
The lawsuit went on for eight years, costing Mrs. Donnelly $630,000 in legal fees. A U.S. District Court judge dismissed Mrs. Lohrenzâs suit. He ruled that she, as a pioneering pilot, was a public figure and failed, as required, to prove actual malice on the part of Mrs. Donnelly. A federal appeals court agreed on Dec. 12. Its opinion went one step further, saying Mrs. Donnelly had good reason to believe her report was true. Said the appeals court, "By the time she published The Donnelly Report, Donnelly also had portions of Lt. Lohrenzâs training records that supported Lt. Burnsâ assertion that the Navy made special accommodations for Lt. Lohrenz." Then, the Supreme Court this week delivered a final victory. There are no more avenues for appeal. Mrs. Donnelly told us yesterday, "Itâs a great relief. Itâs a victory for the First Amendment and naval aviation for high standards in training. Thatâs what this was always about. And I wish there were a better way for someone who knows the standards. I wish there was a better way for them to be heard, instead of coming to a civilian like me, who ends up spending $630,000 to defend my First Amendment rights to publish the truth about what happened."
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/23/2004 5:27:06 PM ||
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SO... is everyone who complains about how we don't have enough money for the troops or enough troops going to put their money where their mouth is?
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
05/23/2004 19:30 Comments ||
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Caught at LGF
An incident in Kakabeka Falls last month has apparently caught the attention of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security and the F.B.I. ABC News reports that the arrest of two people driving a van loaded 12 drums of red phosphorous has caused concern because of fears of a new terror attack in the U.S. The chemical is highly incendiary, and ABC says American authorities have reports a spectacular attack may be planned for sometime before the Presidential election this fall. either that or itâs to make Speed, which will energize the Kerry campaign
Thunder Bay Police charged a man and a woman only for violations of the Dangerous Goods Act. Police spokesperson Chris Adams says itâs an ongoing drug investigation, since red phosphorous can be used to make Speed. He says U.S. officials have not contacted Thunder Bay, but may have picked up on the case through Interpol. ABC reports the two people arrested here were Muslims, and that they claimed they were paid $4500 to drive the phosphorous to the U.S. Adams says that in fact, they said they were paid to drive the van to Toronto. They were releasedWTF??? with a court appearance set for July. wanna bet they donât show? I sure hope this is a ploy to track them....
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 3:06:23 PM ||
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#1
You're forgetting that Canada doesn't track anyone Frank. They believe it violates the persons Civil Rights to track them. There was an article about that a couple months back here on Rantburg.
Posted by: Charles ||
05/23/2004 15:36 Comments ||
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Hellooooo Canada!!!
What are we going to have to do to get their attention up there? Close the damn bodeer?
Posted by: Old Grouch ||
05/23/2004 17:10 Comments ||
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"bodeer"/"border"
Yes, failing to preview is my friend.
Posted by: Old Grouch ||
05/23/2004 17:13 Comments ||
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Can this stuff really be used to make Speed? Can it be used to make anything legit?
#6
Just some moslems and illegal substances that can be used to kill people.
Nothing to see here - move along now....
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/23/2004 18:33 Comments ||
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Since it is virtually impossible to seal the Canadian border west of Ontario, the US should just annex Alberta, Saskatchawan, Manitoba, BC, and the NW Territories to form a contiguous nation from the Mexican border up to Alaska. Leave Ontario to put up with Quebec and the impoverished Atlantic provinces. Good idea, eh?
Actually, thinking about it, we should annex Ontario and Nunavit too.
Posted by: Random thoughts ||
05/23/2004 21:14 Comments ||
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Random Thoughts, Don't forget the Atlantic Provinces. I'd say everything except Quebec. ;^)
Echelon, intercepted a number of messages from suspected terrorists suggesting planning for a massive, multipronged assault on the United States. When? Between this summerâs political conventions and October, one month before the presidential election. The intelligence appeared to confirm information obtained from some seized al Qaeda computers and from several human sources, government officials say. Officials at the CIA and the National Security Agency, which runs the Echelon program, believe the information is credible but worry that the human sources were on the periphery of the now widely dispersed al Qaeda network. Nevertheless, the information pointed to two, perhaps three, targets, the sources say: New York, Washington, and Las Vegas. The objective of the suspected attack, the officials continued, would be not only to cause mass casualties and devastation of U.S. infrastructure but to roil the presidential race. The Madrid bombings, which killed 191 people and wounded 1,800, also toppled the Spanish government and triggered the withdrawal of Spanish troops from Iraq. "Since Spain," says a Bush administration official, "al Qaeda has had the feeling of âWe can do this. We can affect an election.â "
#2
Too true, Theo.
(You aren't another Greek sent to torment us by Katsaris, are you?)
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 13:58 Comments ||
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LOL, Jen.
I don't know that the terrorists will think things through, though. They saw a strike affect Spain, and will want to believe that the same thing will happen in the US, despite there being a logical arguement that says otherwise.
After all, if these people were logical (not to mention sane), they wouldn't be terrorists in the first place.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
05/23/2004 14:16 Comments ||
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I disagree. Precisely because Bush is their nemesis they will attack, as they have everything to gain and not much more to lose. If they can affect public opinion, ruin the economic recovery, and spoil the sense of security we've had (since we've had no more attacks on our soil since 9/11), then they can help usher in Kerry and the new Golden Age of Appeasement.
Posted by: Dar ||
05/23/2004 14:18 Comments ||
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#5
after all, they were right that America would retreat after 9/11, right, Omar and Saddam? These mooks aren't the tactical geniuses we fear, but are capable of pulling off individual successes at soft targets. Nevertheless, they are getting rolled back every friggin day. How many men does Sadr have in his feared Mahdi militia today?
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 14:19 Comments ||
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They will hit when they can. It's coming. It's the severity of the attack that is the big question. What say you Gentle?
#7
I'm inclined to believe they won't try another mass-casualty attack on US soil - at least not for the time being. IIRC, the CIA found out from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (that guy who looks like Ron Jeremy) that Al-Q was surprised at US public reaction to the 9/11 attacks. They'd expected something more along the lines of the reactions they got from the Spaniards this last March - when instead they awakened public fury and resolve.
The butchering of Nick Berg has also had an effect on the average Joe - even here in Seattle, I heard people discussing his murder, the savagery of the perps, and the perfidy of the US news media in, first, trying to "justify" it as "retaliation" for the Abu Ghraib scandal, and second, in quickly forcing the Berg story down the Memory Hole in favor of more All Abu Ghraib, All The Time coverage. I've even heard these sentiments from my liberal friends.
If Al Q was going to play it tactically and strategically smart, they'd go for a mass-casualty attack in Iraq, either a WMD attack or a coordinated series of large-scale suicide bombings and human-wave assaults against US troops and other Coalition targets. I think they realize they made a BIG propaganda mistake with the Nick Berg video - they have to know that a lot of folks in the US have reawakened to the savage nature of our opponents. OTOH, a huge death toll in Iraq (say, if they were able to kill 1000+ US troops in the course of a week or less) would play into the hands of Al-Q and its allies in the US media, who will pull out the propaganda stops even further to undermine the war effort and ensure John Effin' Kerry's election in November.
Posted by: Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo) ||
05/23/2004 14:56 Comments ||
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#8
I don't know that the terrorists will think things through, though. They saw a strike affect Spain, and will want to believe that the same thing will happen in the US, despite there being a logical arguement that says otherwise.
Yeah, just like digracing Jimmy Carter really turned things around for the Iranians.
#9
I'm naturally going to relate this to my long-standing prediction that we will see major violence from the home-grown left, with some crossover and collaboration from AQ.
In this case, the objective of pre-election violence would not be to change the result but to disrupt the election and de-legitimize the process itself.
This is hopeless, barring some entirely unforeseen event, but it is consistent with their fantasy ideology and this always trumps reality in their planning.
In terms of the pop-revolutionary fantasy ideology, this would gain global attention and legitimize their status as a Palestinian-style "resistance movement."
#10
You guys are taking a much too parochial approach. Muslim terrorists don't just attack to influence American public opinion. They attack to get their fund-raisers excited and to get new volunteers for the jihad.
If nothing else, a successful terror attack on US soil will help with recruitment efforts. Who wants to go into Muslim countries to kill other Muslims? Successfully killing thousands of Americans in the heart of the Great Satan itself should help get Muslim volunteers excited about jihad again. And all those Muslim financial donors who were starting to get impatient about their funding being used to kill Muslims will now get a clear shot at what they perceive to be Islam's unambiguous enemy - Uncle Sam.
#11
Ricky, they don't have a problem with out getting angry. Because, after all, not every American got angry at them.
They have the press on their side; they have the Democrats on their side; I'm not sure another attack on the US would enrage us or just make the poltroons among us more determined to cave.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/23/2004 16:12 Comments ||
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#12
This is hopeless, barring some entirely unforeseen event, but it is consistent with their fantasy ideology and this always trumps reality in their planning.
Whose fantasy ideology, the Islamists or the leftists?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/23/2004 16:13 Comments ||
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#13
Indeed, ZF, I have always taken it for granted that the 9-11 attacks were aimed as much at AQ's supporters and sympathizers as at Americans.
It was a statement of power and status, resonating well with historical resentment of Islam's (largely self-inflicted) humiliation, as well as with the Islamic culture's standards of authority.
The same is true of the forthcoming domestic terrorists. To the worshippers of Che and Mumia, lethal violence is the signature of sincerity, determination, and authenticity. This, in turn, signifies the legitimacy of their positions and therefore, their right to rule.
#14
Robert,
"In this case" meaning the leftists.
There are many similarities between the two ideologies, however, including identical characterizations of the opposition and (most crucially imho) a reliance on propaganda methods whose viability is fading ie, the power and credibility of the institutional media.
This is a cultural war in the most profound sense. It is the elite media culture's last chance for absolute power. Many realize this; among the elitists themselves, their dupes, their terrorist proxies and academic agents; and among the opposition.
This is why I am expecting an absolute showdown within a year, probably before the end of this year.
#15
Robert, I don't think the true-believing poltroon class is that large a subsection of the populace. There are plenty of honest liberals on our side - our own Liberalhawk as an example - who don't buy the Chomskyite L-Cubed party line. Like I said above, I have some liberal friends who've FINALLY realized that much of the media is flat-out on the other side. If Al-Q made another mass-casualty attack on US soil, and the media pulled the bullshit they did in the months after 9/11, you'd start seeing L-Cubed journos dangling from lampposts.
Posted by: Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo) ||
05/23/2004 16:58 Comments ||
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#16
I'll bite.
An "absolute showdown", 'Conspiracy? How do you see that coming about? With the makeup of the sides being..?
And Rick, would that make L-cubes: Lynched Leftist Lingoists?
Posted by: scott ||
05/23/2004 17:13 Comments ||
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#17
I named them, Scott.
Specifically, I see an outbreak of violence from the far left, in opposition to the re-election of Dubya if that happens, in opposition to Kerry's failure to meet extremist demands if he happens to win. (I am one of the Democrats here, though not a liberal by post-LBJ standards.)
The extreme left sub-culture has an alliance of convenience with the Islamofascist enemy. More importantly, the left as we know it today is largely a creature of the institutional media culture. Large-scale violence will lead to the collapse of this dominant media culture, since alternative sources now exist and the dominant culture's assumptions and worldview will be completely inadequate to explain or influence the new reality.
For more on the symbiosis of media culture and violent radicalism, see:The Conquest of Cool by Thomas Frank.
#20
Interesting.
One of the things I've always disdained is the 'left-right' continuum. Let's see: Communism on the far left, fascism on the far right. And the difference being? National vs. International Socialism?! So evidently it's a circle. And that's exactly what the elitists have been running us in. Pitting Americans against each other with distictions without difference.
The scale should be absoulutism. Totalitarianism on one side (call it 'plus') and anarchy on the other. With Jeffersonian constitutionalism (governing least) firmly on the 'minus' side.
A similar measuning stick would be helpful in knowing friend from foe in your showdown.
Lacerated? Piano wire. Waaay messy.
Posted by: scott ||
05/23/2004 17:59 Comments ||
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#21
"One of the things I've always disdained is the 'left-right' continuum."
I disdain poor spelling and pointless semantic diversions.
"Let's see: Communism on the far left, fascism on the far right. And the difference being? National vs. International Socialism?! So evidently it's a circle. And that's exactly what the elitists have been running us in. Pitting Americans against each other with distictions without difference."
I have said nothing about a continuum and I have certainly not represented this as a conflict between communists and fascists, with all that implies. In this conflict, communists and nazis are demonstrably on the same side.
The "left" designates a particular set of affiliations and positions in the present context. It is not a description, but a designation, used by the "left" itself. At the very least, they are fond of characterizing opposition as "right-wing" despite the obviously fascistic overtones of much of their own rhetoric.
"The scale should be absoulutism. Totalitarianism on one side (call it 'plus') and anarchy on the other. With Jeffersonian constitutionalism (governing least) firmly on the 'minus' side. A similar measuning stick would be helpful in knowing friend from foe in your showdown."
I had this to say on another string:
This war is a major breaking point in world history. In broadest terms, it is a showdown between a hellish alliance of authoritarian power-seekers on one side and the principles of the Enlightenment on the other.
It has been building for 200 years and it will not end soon.
It will get worse, much worse, before it gets better.
The self-designated "left" has a warrant for the term, despite their alliance with conventionally designated "right-wing" ideas such as religious rule and antisemitism. The traditional, and original, designation of left and right has to do with opposition to, or support of, the prevailing power structure and authorities. This is how the Communist hard-liners who tried to overthrow Gorbachev in 1991 came to be designated as "right-wing," they represented the dominant power structure in opposition to radical change.
In our present context, the Jeffersonian Republic (an outgrowth of the Enlightenment) is the prevailing and traditional structure while the proponents of totalitarianism, shariah law, and institutional media culture are the opposition.
#22
I am really surprised at the people who think that a large attack won't occur pre-election in the USA becuase it would result in a Bush re-election. Madrid is now the template and will be for years to come. Whether it produces the same result in the USA remains to be seen. I am not as confident as you that it will not produce another Spanish outcome. Even if it doesn't and the public's mood can be accurately determined, you assume that the jihadis can both accurately determine the mood and act rationally in response which I doubt (on both counts). I think an attack is is a certainty and probably multiple coordinated attacks.
Posted by: Phil B ||
05/23/2004 18:46 Comments ||
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#23
Oooohh, touchy, touchy A.C. Yours is a superior intellect. Is it my spell check or the fact that you voted for Clinton twice?
With all the changing affiliations, I'm just trying to figure out who I can't turn my back on. Not too long ago, it was libs like you (were?!) Keep looking into the light, you might get there.
Posted by: scott ||
05/23/2004 18:56 Comments ||
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#24
I think an all-out attempt on Bush's life is more likely than a mass casualty strike. Think about it... Would we then run old man Cheney? Bush, I fear, is indispensable to victory over the jihadis (and their local fifth column).
#25
Zhang, regarding your question in #10, the scary thing is that a number of these terrorist jihadis - the Wahhabis come to mind first and foremost, but I'm sure there are others - regard any interpretation of the Qu'ran other than their own as apostasy. In many ways, Islamic solidarity is something of a myth, existing in name only. Muslims have been killing each other since not long after their Profit, may bees pee upon him, bit the dust and went to the big Burning Olive Garden in Hell; in fact, three of the first four caliphs (the "Rightly-Guided" caliphs, companions of the Profit, may bees pee upon him, all) were murdered. With these extremists, being of another sect is the equivalent of not being a true Muslim. They may not target other Muslims intentionally, or at least say so - that would, for obvious reasons, be a mistake on their part - but it happens, sure as hell. So the idea that harming another Muslim is something Islam forbids is certainly a myth. There are far too many excuses for extremists to use.
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/23/2004 19:08 Comments ||
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#26
I wouldn't put it past the jihadis to try something else here. It's a scary thought, to be sure, but I'm not sure that even if, God forbid, Kerry was elected, it would be a victory for the enemy. Think about it: we get hit on 9/11, we go in and take down two countries and, according to several accounts, cripple al-Q for quite a while. Criticism of the handling of the war leads to a questioning of the President's abilities, and during a critical election, we're hit again. So, if we assume that Kerry wins because of that, what happens next? And remember, I don't like that idea, but this is purely hypothetical.
There was a lot of solidarity after 9/11, not to mention outrage. There's questioning now as to how we're handling things in Iraq, and to be sure, we made a couple of mistakes in Afghanistan such as letting Binny get away, but no one questioned whether we should go in there. Well, the antiwar crowd, but we ignored them because no matter how vocal they were, they did not represent the majority of Americans. Now if we were to be attacked again, given what happened before, do you really think it likely that John Kerry would be able to stand in front of a grieving and angry populus, a populus that put him in office, and declare, "We must make peace with them. We must acknowledge that this is in retaliation for mistakes we have made and so we must pull out of Iraq and give into their demands"?
I don't think so. I think if he tried to do that he'd be lynched on the spot, or there would be a mass popular movement to impeach him, or something. I simply don't believe that even he could get away with doing nothing. Clinton could because those attacks took place overseas. If it happened here, if it involved innocent civilians, it would be a different story.
My two cents, anyway. Although I have to agree with you, AC, that it's entirely conceivable that the left would try something. They don't seem to realize what would happen if the Islamists won (a similar quandry to the Arabs and the Nazis in WWII, actually; very interesting story, that, but I've taken up enough space with this post already. Ask me about it if you want to know more).
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/23/2004 19:18 Comments ||
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#27
I've been thinking along those same lines; in fact, I think a Kerry victory could turn out to be an absolute disaster for Islam.
If Kerry is elected, whether on the heels of a terrorist attack on the U.S. or not, then he-- and anyone who follows him in office-- will conclude that it was because America simply does not have the stomach for a protracted conflict like the one we're engaged in now.
The jihadis will draw that same conclusion and it will embolden them, all the more so if a Kerry victory follows a Spain-style pre-election attack. And they will redouble their efforts, making further attacks inevitable.
And you're right: John Kerry would NOT be able to just stand there and do nothing; but neither could he embark on another idealistic, Bush-style campaign to reform the Muslim world, because he would be convinced-- by his own election victory-- that the country will not stand for a long war.
So he feels he simply MUST do something, something which will settle the matter decisively. And he will feel that he has only weeks, or at most months, in which to do it.
Frankly, I don't see where he's got a helluva lot of choices: looks to me like he just pushes The Big Button.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/23/2004 19:37 Comments ||
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#28
Interesting lines of reasoning, guys. But I think you're still trying to rehabilitate Judas. (as it were) The reason most conservatives fear a Kerry administration is because of who he'd be beholden to. It would be Clinton redux. (without the economy balancing the budget) Military morale, respect for the U.S. (I didn't say love), non-legislating judges, all down the toilet. I don't believe the powers behind him -the 'hate America first' crowd, is gonna let him lead us to any sort of victory. Even if he were so inclined. BTW, which way IS he inclined?
Today, that is.
Posted by: scott ||
05/23/2004 19:56 Comments ||
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#29
Scott, I have no intention of "rehabilitating Judas." I think we'll be in real trouble if he's elected. I hope with all my heart that we won't see a Kerry victory come November. All I'm saying is that I don't think that he'd be able to get away with his bi-polar positions in the face of another devastating al-Q attack on American soil.
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/23/2004 20:01 Comments ||
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#30
Kerry would be the least of the problems with his administration. The people he'd be forced to pick would be the biggest.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/23/2004 20:05 Comments ||
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#31
Doc, you're probably right, but the fact that he'd maybe wanna 'get away with' some of his equivocations says it all. But if GWB doesn't pull a rabbit out of his hat (one I hope he bought, not inherited) we better get used to thinking about a Kerry win.
Does Soldier of Fortune still print?
Exactamundo, RC. Think, Jocelyn Elders.
Posted by: scott ||
05/23/2004 20:13 Comments ||
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#32
Wait, Scott, I'm confused. What all does "he'd maybe wanna 'get away with' some . . ." say?
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/23/2004 20:19 Comments ||
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#33
#24 I think an all-out attempt on Bush's life is more likely than a mass casualty strike. Think about it... Would we then run old man Cheney? Bush, I fear, is indispensable to victory over the jihadis (and their local fifth column).
Posted by: someone 2004-05-23 7:03:02 PM
Definetly a possibilty. It could be done. Mass volley of man portable sams?. PRGS fired at Air Force One on landing rollout?. Lets admit it we have all played around with these scenarios as mental excercise. Personally I expect Bush to ask Cheney to step aside citing health concerns. Who to nominate in his place? Powell, I don't think he'd break his promise to his wife. Rummy, not in this life time. McCain, possible but I have doubts. Rice, BINGO!!!!!!
#34
I firmly believe George Bush to be as indispensible to the survival of the United States of America as a free nation as Winston Churchill was to England. There is no one of his stature able to step forward at this time. Maybe Condoleeza Rice in the future, but not now. The Presidency is not a place for learner's permits.
I believe that John Kerry is a hollow shell consumed with ambition. If he were to achieve his goal and become president, I believe he would be bereft of direction. The people around him are a mishmash of politically correct fools, poltroons, idealogues, and monumentally ambitious thieves who mistake soundbites for deep thought. The looting of the US that would take place under a Kerry "administration" would make US Grant's look like a model of probity
May God bless and protect George Bush and lead him and the Republic to victory.
#35
"But I think you're still trying to rehabilitate Judas."
I hope you didn't mean me; I absolutely loathe John Kerry, and I have ever since he pulled that "Winter Soldier Investigation" bullshit back in 1971 when I was in the Army. We had a word for people like him: buddyfucker.
Although "traitor" will do just as well, I suppose.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/23/2004 21:06 Comments ||
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#36
Sorry Doc, following the Wolves/Lakers on net. (The Ticket better get in the game or the Pups are done!) You had said, "I don't think he'd be able to get away with his bi-polar (cool - I'm gonna steal that) positions". I was just pointing out that he might want to "get away" with stuff he couldn't. Goes to motive, Your Honor. "In the Kingdom of God, motive is everything," -Augustine (or Aquinas maybe)
Yeah, I did Dave, until I realized I might possibly have to look for silver linings if Kerry wins too. Suicide is not an option.
RWV - I wish I was as confident in GWB as you. I still remember his dad. (Globalist. No real friend of conservativism) I like Junior, I just wish he wasn't from the same Texas cabal.
Posted by: scott ||
05/23/2004 21:31 Comments ||
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#37
Okay. That clears it up; thanks!
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/23/2004 21:43 Comments ||
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#38
"Yeah, I did Dave, until I realized I might possibly have to look for silver linings if Kerry wins too."
I'm not thinking of the nuclear annihilation of a billion Muslims as a "silver lining," actually; I really, REALLY would like to avoid that, if at all possible. Which is why I want this exercise we've undertaken in Iraq to succeed, and for us to continue exerting maximum effort to try to make it a success.
Frankly, I don't have a lot of confidence that the Islamic world can be de-toxified; and each day my confidence in a positive outcome erodes just a little bit more. But we've got to try.
Like I said to someone on the morning of 9/11: I'm not afraid of what the Muslims might do to us; I'm afraid of what they might force us to do to them.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/23/2004 21:46 Comments ||
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#39
That what the Muslims don't understand and what scares me.We might have to kill a billion ppl I really don't like that.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/23/2004 22:04 Comments ||
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#41
You guys are right of course. They could drag us to their level. They remind me of the knight in Holy Grail -"It's just a scratch". I really don't want to see several thousand of our sons die while they see if Allah (Allan - yuks!) is up to the task.
But it's a foregone conclusion that they will strike us again. Just with what is the question. And that begs our response. Many wags here have said 'Mecca' as a retaliatory site. I used to think it was just enthusiasm. Now, I'm not so sure. I believe that this war is with Islam, regardless of what the "moderates" think. I believe we should say up front that Mecca is the target if there's another 9-11. Heck, even give them time to evacuate, just because we CAN. Then send it to MOAB. Then announce to them them the next TWO cities. (Karachi and Tehran? Damascus and Qom?) None of this ground-pounders-at-perpetual-risk crap. I don't care if they never get democratized. They don't seem to be that interested. They can worship their moon god all they want, just keep the killing amongst themselves.
Posted by: scott ||
05/23/2004 22:30 Comments ||
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#42
If the Coalition were to pack their bags & depart from Iraq, Shi'ites would be knocking off Sunnis, al-Qa'ida terrorist moles would be blowing up Iranian agents...and doing it soooo peacefully.
Persian dogs against Arab swine, just as it was during the Iran-Iraqi war.
Funny that there were no 'western' ground troops in either Iran or Iraq during that war, yet somehow they managed to butcher & gas each other in the name of Islam.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/24/2004 0:02 Comments ||
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Strength, Part 1
First of all, letâs start this little journey by mentioning The Gloom. Fallujah. Abu Ghraib. Bodies hanging on bridges. Prisoners standing on boxes.
Listen troops, letâs get this straight right off the bat: itâs only a catastrophe. Itâs nothing more than a major disaster. Iâm not being cynical, or arch, or âironic.â I am deadly serious.
We have seen two months of what looks like non-stop catastrophe, and we will see more, and maybe worse, before we are through. Here is my well-reasoned, historically researched, deeply nuanced opinion: Tough shit. This war will be over when we say it is over, and not a second before.
When Santa Anaâs men ran up the red flag and his band played the Deguello â âThe Throat Cuttingâ it must have made the men and women in the Alamo sick and weak in the knees. But it did not have the demoralizing effect that the Mexican dictator intended. Rather, it hardened the defenders. They did not run, and we are not going to run either, and Dan Rather and Ted Koppel and the rest can play all the goddam dirges they want to. The Alamo itself was a military disaster, a catastrophe. And when Sam Houston retreated from and kept evading Santa Anaâs army, he was called a coward and a traitor â afraid to fight, not tough enough to do what was necessary. Sam Houston was a deeply flawed man, but he had thick skin and that in itself goes a long way when you are planning deep. Sam Houston didnât give a tinkerâs damn about Glory or Honor. Sam Houston wanted Texas. Like the equally wily and patient George Washington before him, Sam Houston wanted to win. And they did win. And that is why there will be no major metropolitan area named Kerry...
Consider this:
If you genuinely, honestly believe you can compare George Bush to Adolph Hitler, it is only because you are so removed from exposure to the genuine horrors of the Nazi regime â routine street beatings, confiscation and destruction of businesses, homes and property, then deportation and extermination of millions of your own countrymen -- that you are functionally incapable of the most basic and fundamental level of discrimination. If you can compare Abu Ghraib to a Nazi death camp with a straight face then you have never been to either Abu Ghraib, or a Nazi death camp, or either â that is patently obvious, and it would be comically so if the stakes were not so monumentally high. Having never been exposed to genuine evil, you have literally no conception whatsoever of what it looks and smells and tastes like.
(Immigrant Americans from Poland or Russia or Cuba, or Iraq, for that manner, exhibit virtually none of this madness. They know what a real secret police presence feels like.)
Let me clarify this if I may. Senator Kennedy claims Abu Ghraib is simply Saddam Husseinâs torture chambers âunder new management â U.S. management.â Taking him at his word â a somewhat iffy proposition right out of the gate â he apparently cannot see the difference between the humiliation and bullying of enemy combatants, which is shameful, disgusting and reprehensible, and the gleeful, mocking murder, torture and gang rape of over 300,000 innocent men, women and children -- which is something worse. So Senator, here is a helpful analogy which you may find useful: The difference is about the same as pulling over and leaving a young female secretary on the curb in the rain, which is shameful, disgusting and reprehensible, vs. leaving her trapped in the car at the bottom of a river while you look at the bubbles and ponder the political repercussions.
Which is something worse, Senator.
Strength, Part 2 The man is truly amazing. When his book comes out (soon), buy copies for all the lefties you know. And one for yourself.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/23/2004 2:26:18 AM ||
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#1
superb read that, i think he's dead right when he says about people who compare Bush to Hitler,people who make such comparisons are clearly completely oblivious to the history that shaped the world to what it is today. My thinking is that if the people of Allied nations were properly informed about the true nature of Binny and more generally the whole essance of what Islam has become, for far to long we've listended to 'moderate' Islamic 'leaders' telling us Islam is no threat its a religion of peace etc etc.Now we all can quite clearly see that this it not the case and definate and decisive action has to be taken against this huge proportion of the Islamic religion.Are goverments tell us of the deadly threat of Islamic fundamentalists and how wide spread they are in the world yet the media simply chose to ignore all the gritty detail like the madrasses,the surmons delivered by Islamic preachers threatning destruction of the west,the Iranian black hats,and probably most importantly lovely law system that is Sharia,now as you can probably tell im no expert on the subject but at least i know what the threat realy is about and im sure most of you readers do too.The unfortunate truth howerver is that in general the populations of allied countries are fed with over politically correct, non offensive (to Muslims) tripe! I fear the biggest eneamy is our very own media and its constant attempts to divert/hide the truth.
Posted by: Shep UK ||
05/23/2004 6:16 Comments ||
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#2
"...yet the media simply chose to ignore all the gritty detail like the madrasses,the surmons delivered by Islamic preachers threatning destruction of the west,the Iranian black hats,and probably most importantly lovely law system that is Sharia... I fear the biggest eneamy is our very own media and its constant attempts to divert/hide the truth."
It seems to me there are several factors involved besides "political correctness" and the irrational-- and nonsensical-- belief that all cultures are of equal value.
Another factor, at least for us in the States, is simple politics: the Democratic Party has made a conscious choice to affect an opposition to what the Bush administration is doing in the war, and it is just that: an affectation, a posturing. They could just as well have chosen to support the effort, as the Party leadership is fully aware of the necessity of what we're doing; but their calculus apparently told them there were more votes to be had by opposing the war than by supporting it. Hence Sen. Kennedy's fevered howling. The media, being overwhelmingly Democratic, is merely following the Party line.
Simple denial is yet another factor: I think there is a strong desire to avoid facing the reality that we are in a fight for our very existence against a virulent ideology that seeks, quite literally, the submission of all mankind and which, for now at least, will do absolutely anything to achieve it. We really don't want to think about it, it's too unpleasant and frightening. At some dimly lit level we all know that history's biggest death-match, the one between Western liberalism and radical Islam, is taking shape; but for many people the thought is simply too horrible to contemplate. So they push it out of mind and retreat back into their little September 10th world.
And there's simple laziness, as well. The struggle involves difficult questions, none of which our culture wants to deal with. Why were the 9/11 attacks committed? We know who the actual attackers were, and what organization they were operating in; but who, in a larger sense, really perpetrated the attacks? Why is the Islamic world acting the way it is right now? How can we win this war? What is the "right thing" to do? What actions will benefit us most in the short term? In the long term? What is proper, ethically? How far can we go, what are the limits, in terms of our use of force? These questions, strategic, tactical and moral, are all very difficult to deal with, and a society accustomed for the last half-century to a diet of televised pablum in which simplistic, synthesized conflicts are routinely resolved in neat, entertaining, one-hour packages is ill-equipped to deal with them. So we don't deal with them: instead, we continue to occupy our attention with the customary trivial pursuits, expecting others to ask-- and infallibly answer-- the hard questions.
The final element, and I suspect the one that bothers Bill Whittle the most, is the emergence in the West of a systemic self-loathing, an ennui that has given rise to a chronic cynicism about the very worth of our culture. And it is this self-loathing, I think, that leads to the likes of Sen. Kennedy's asinine notion that the transient abuses at Abu Ghraib are equivalent to Saddam Hussein's quarter-century of systematic horror-- and to the equally asinine belief that the U.S. is becoming a "police state."
If people want to know what a REAL police state is like, just wait til we all live under sharia. Because that's what's going to happen, if we don't get off our asses and get serious about preventing it.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/23/2004 8:58 Comments ||
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#3
Regarding Bill Whittles opening point, a quote from Winston Churchills History of the Second World War, where nothing went right for the longest time:
"War is full of horrible surprises"
#4
I've made a point of letting some of my coworkers read these essays most of whom are diehard Labor Democrats. For the most part their reaction is favorable. I don't consider Whittle a Republican or a conservative persee. I consider him more of a realist that sees the world as it really is not as he wishes it to be. All in all I think this is his best eassy since History. I don't know if he could handle the daily writing grind but some body should offer this guy a chunck of change to do a regular column. I don't always agree with what he says but like Voltaire I will defend his right to say it just as much as I will defend the rights of Molly Ivans to say what she has to say
With the United States getting day by day increasingly bogged down in the Iraqi quagmire and the future role for the United Nations in that country as uncertain as ever, the after-effects of the bombing last August 19 of the organizationâs headquarters in Baghdad, which saw the death of 23 of its staff including special representative Sergio Vieira de Mello, continue to bedevil the world body. At a time when the UN is facing its most serious crisis in its 50-year history, the handling of the aftermath of the attack by a UN Secretariat that appears to be increasingly disconnected with reality and only concerned with self-preservation is turning, in the opinion of many observers in New York, into a saga of literarily all the ills that bedevil the organization.
Good article, but it went on for days. Go to the link to read it.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/23/2004 9:00:30 PM ||
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Two bombs have exploded in the Indonesian city of Ambon, site of Muslim-Christian fighting that has left at least 38 people dead in recent weeks. Police chief Leonidas Braksan told reporters Sunday that five people were injured in the first explosion, at least one of them seriously.
The French news agency, AFP, reports the bomb was hidden in a cookie tin and placed under a bench. It quotes Mr. Braksan as saying the bomb injured the young men who found the tin and tried to open it. Unidentified attackers set off a second bomb nearby about a half-hour later, injuring no one.
The blasts came a day after a visit by Indonesian president Megawati Sukarnoputri, who denied claims her government is not doing enough to combat a resurgence of Muslim-Christian violence in the area. Ambon was the scene of religious violence that took at least 5,000 lives between 1999 and 2002.
In an interview from death row in Indonesia, Bali bomber Mukhlas said he would "butcher" Australian Prime Minister John Howard if he was given the chance. "If John Howard appears before me, Iâll butcher him," Mukhlas, whose real name is Ali Ghufron, said in an interview for TV Nine Networkâs "Sunday" current affairs program.
Mukhlas was sentenced to death last year for his role in the Oct. 12, 2002, nightclub bombings on the Indonesian island of Bali that killed 202 people, including 88 Australians. He said increased security and terror fears in Australia showed terrorists had struck an important blow against the nation. "Just imagine, people are scared of their own shadow. Itâs the victory for the terrorists," he said. His remarks in Indonesian were translated into English for the program. Australia has spent hundreds of millions of dollars bolstering security at airports, ports and other potential terror targets as well as beefing up counterterror military units and spy agencies since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States. Australia also allied itself with the United States in the Iraq war. Mukhlas suggested terror attacks would continue against Australians and Americans. "America and Australia and the rest only understand the language of force, the language of bombs," he said.
Posted by: tipper ||
05/23/2004 9:13:36 AM ||
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#1
Haven't they gotten around to ventilating this waste of skin yet? And why in hell are they allowing interviews with him?
The head of an umbrella organization for Thailand's southern separatists is seeking a formal dialogue with Bangkok, the Bangkok Post reported Saturday. Bersatu incorporates several separatist movements, and Chairman Wan Abdul Kadir Che Man has proposed discussions with the federal government after numerous bloody clashes in the south of Thailand. Wan Abdul Kadir said he believed the ongoing violence in southern Thailand stemmed from political problems and could be solved only through political dialogue. He said the Thai government has adopted the wrong approach in trying the solve the problem through talks with religious leaders, since the conflict is actually a political one. "If a political dialogue is conducted between separatists and representatives from the government, it could lead to a solution to the problems," he said.
He dismissed speculation that troubles in the South were linked to Muslim terrorist groups, such as Kampulan Mujahideen, Malaysia and Indonesia's Jemaah Islamiyah. Thai intelligence officials blame Bersatu for recent violence in the south.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/23/2004 12:27:13 AM ||
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#1
...TRANSLATION: "Thai security is getting way too close to my turbaned ass, and I need to call a hudna."
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
05/23/2004 1:29 Comments ||
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#2
... TRANSLATION: "Time for some (incoming) 50mm rounds."
AN Indonesian appeal court has acquitted three suspected members of the Jemaah Islamiyah terror network, overruling jail sentences of up to five years issued by lower courts, a report said today.
The Central Sulawesi province Court of Appeal on Friday quashed the conviction of Firmansyah, Fajri and Aang Hasanuddin, the Jakarta Post said.
Officials were not immediately available to confirm the report.
"They have been found not guilty. After investigating the evidence, and based on witness statements, the three were not proven to be involved in terrorism," the presiding judge of the court of appeal, Mahdi Saroinda Nasution said on Saturday, according to the newspaper.
Firmansyah and Fajri had been sentenced to five years in jail for allegedly aiding Bali bomb suspect Achmad Roichan while Hasanuddin was given three years for failing to inform police on the activities of the other two.
In the ruling, issued on Friday, the court of appeal also ordered the release of the three from detention.
But prosecutors Ferry Silalahi and Syahrul Alam said the three would only be freed after the supreme court had ruled on the prosecutor's appeal.
The same court is currently hearing appeals from two other suspected Jemaah Islamiyah members - Muhammad Fauzan and Nizam - who were sentenced to six years each over weapons possession and storage in March.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/23/2004 12:26:07 AM ||
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POLICE investigating suspected Abu Sayyaf extremists who were allegedly planning a bombing campaign found literature dealing with chemical weapons in their possession, a top intelligence official said Saturday.
National Security Advisor Norberto Gonzales played down the likelihood that the suspects had acquired the ability to use chemical weapons when they were arrested in March.
Among the items captured from the six suspects in March were "readings on biological and chemical warfare," Gonzales told Agence France-Presse.
He said the documents seized were more of the "anarchist handbook" type readily available from certain publishers, rather than confidential military documents.
"It doesn't mean they have the capability (for chemical weapons) and are already manufacturing them," he said.
The significance of the find is that "it gives us a look into the mental framework of terrorists. What they really want is as many casualties as possible," Gonzales said.
Gonzales denied speculation that the Abu Sayyaf or similar regional terror groups, like the Jemaah Islamiyah (JI), might have established a chemical or biological weapons facility in the southern Philippines.
In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if they have. There are certainly signs that JI has been trying to do just that and the government cease-fire with the MILF has certainly given them the necessary breathing room to do just that. There were also reports of al-Qaeda planning a chemical attack on Japan back last December.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/23/2004 12:22:55 AM ||
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#1
These sickos have yet to stage a successful broad-based chemical attack in any western nation.
If in the past attempted chemical terrorism was prevented by security forces, the die-hard jihadists in their demented mindsets feel they must try again.
As long as intelligence continues extracting crucial information about any & all planed attacks plus stops potential terrorist from launching chemical terror attacks, the Islamic radicals will maintain their perfect record .............of failures.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/23/2004 4:11 Comments ||
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Iranâs supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, on Sunday appointed a former hostage-taker and leader of the elite Revolutionary Guards as the head of state-run radio and television. Ezzatollah Zarghami, 45, who was promoted from deputy head of the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting, was among militant students who overran the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and held 52 embassy staffers hostage for 444 days in 1979. He joined Iranâs elite Revolutionary Guards as a senior officer in the early 1980s and served for a decade there. The network enjoys a monopoly over Iranian broadcasting and has 12 domestic television and radio channels.
#1
Islamic devotion . . . check.
Approval of the Supreme Leader . . . check.
Hatred of Westerners . . . check.
Technical skills relevant to new job . . . ???
Three out of four ain't bad, I suppose . . .
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/23/2004 20:26 Comments ||
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#2
I think Zarghami's appointment stands as a perfect indicator of just how far Iranian ideology has progressed since 1979.
#3
Make sense, in a "Sopranos" sort of way.
Put a guy in charge who (1) owes you and (2) is likely to be taken down if you are. You might say that circumstances give good ol' Ezzatollah some "incentive" to keep things quiet on the media front.
Posted by: Old Grouch ||
05/23/2004 21:48 Comments ||
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#4
Sheesh, talk about media-terrorist collusion. Here we have the literal fact. I wonder how much attention this will get from the lamestream media?
This is the article Gentle was talking about in the comments below...
When we Muslims state that Islam is a religion of peace, we are not trying to prove something unreasonable or solve a crossword puzzle. Rather, we are just stating a fact backed by clear-cut evidence and unquestionable proofs. Even we donât need to state this fact, for Islam, in itself, is self-explanatory, in terms of its meaning, its noble teachings and the core of its message conveyed by the Prophets Allah sent to mankind.
I guess it all depends on the meaning you assign the word "peace," doesn't it? That appears to shift from sect to sect within Islam, from Sufism's ability to get along with most other religions to Wahhabism's ability to get along with none, to include those holding different opinions within itself.
Shedding more light on this issue, here is the statement made by Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America, in replying a similar question: âThank you very much for your kind words that you do not hate Muslims. Hate is not good for any person. I want to assure you that we Muslims also do not hate non-Muslims, be they Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist or followers of any religion or no religion. Our religion does not allow killing any innocent person regardless of his or her religion. The life of all human beings is sacrosanct according to the teachings of the Qurâan and the guidance of our blessed Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and upon all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah.
We're down to quibbling about semantics again, this time the definition of "innocent." Was it Sheikh Qaradawi's opinion is that there's no such thing as an innocent Israelis: all the men are subject to the draft, as are potentially all women. And the little kids are going to grow up, and then they'll be soldiers, too, so it's best to kill them now. Or was that another fatwah from some other renowned scholar?
The Qurâan says about the prohibition of murder, ââŠTake not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.â (Al-An`am: 151) and Allah says in the Qurâan, âNor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)â (Al-Israâ: 33). According to the Qurâan, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See Al-Maâidah: 32)
Oh, dear. More quibbles. Muslims can take infidels' lives and property in the course of jihad. It's not murder then. And seemingly anyone with a turban can declare jihad, at any time, for any reason.
However, your question is valid, then how come the Qurâan says, âkill them wherever you find themâŠâ as it is mentioned in Surah Al-Baqarah: 191 and Surah An-Nisaâ: 89. The answer is simple and that is, you should read these verses in their textual and historical context.
"Kill them wherever you find them, anywhere from New York to Tel Aviv to Moscow to Madrid to Bali to Delhi to Bangkok and all the way back again to Lagos. Kill. Kill. Kill. It's the Muslim way, isn't it? Or should we have a nice hudna, that'll last until the next bus is blown up, or the next train or the next airliner?
You should read the whole verse and it is better that you read few verses before and few after. Read the full text and see what is said:
âFight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.â (Al-Baqarah: 190-194)
And never forget that it's always the other guy's fault. "Oppression," like so many other things withing Islam, has a flexible meaning. You can always find it, if you look hard enough. F'rinstance, in Thailand, which is a nice country, not oppressive to most people's eyes in the least, where Muslims have fired up the Motorcycles of Doom.
For your second quotation also read the full text:
âThey but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them." (An-Nisaâ: 89-91)
Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere?
Certainly not. You need a fatwah to do that. But fatwahs are cheap.
These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the âterroristâ. These verses are not a permission for âterrorismâ but they are a warning against the âterrorists.â But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized.
We saw that on September 11th, three years ago. Those boys sure did know their Koran, didn't they?
It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate these verses for their own goals. But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context. These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.
That's a fairly loose usage of facts. The Crusades were indeed religiously based, at least the first and second. None of the other examples is strictly driven by sectarianism. The Nazis tried to destroy the Jews on racial grounds. One could stop being a religious Jew and still be subjected to the "final solution." The Serbian offenses against the Bosnians were similar to the Serbian offenses against the Roman Catholic Croatians, and were driven more by tribal animosities than by religious; it wasn't the Bosnians practice of Islam so much as their historical association with the Turks. The ultimate defenders of the Bosnians were Christian — actually secular — Europe and the United States. The only example that actually holds water is the charge of Zionist use against the Paleos. But again, Zionism is a racial thing, demanding a homeland for the Jewish people, not particularly for the Jewish religion. Israel is chock full of not particularly religious Jews, and except for a few crackpots Israel's efforts to defend itself aren't couched in religious terms. In contrast, virtually all aggression by the Muslim world against the rest of us is specifically based in religion.
Let me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament and tell me what do you say about them:
âWhen the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)
âWhen you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you⊠Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)
Those are Old Testament verses, dating from about 1100 B.C. The world outside the Arabian peninsula has progressed since then. We no longer think or act in those terms. Not even the Zionists.
Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:
âI tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Luke 19:26-27)
Unlike the events in the Koran, that even didn't actually take place, did it? Christianity became arrogrant and brutal in its maturity, but the Church during Christ's time wasn't founded on bumping people off. It was three hundred years before Christianity became predominant within the Empire.
Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: http://pakistanlink.com/religion.html
#1
Oh, there it is! I was worried I was just being stupid and missing it! Gentle, go to that 130+ comment thread from earlier today and read what I said; I don't feel like repeating it again and I suspect that no one else wants to read it again/see me take up more space than usual.
As for that Bible verse, I just happened to have mine out (girlfriend had me reading something out of it earlier; she's trying hard to civilize me!), and I checked out the passage. Sorry, Gentle, but whoever wrote this did the same thing Muslims accuse others of doing time and time again: taking things out of context. That quote was indeed from Jesus, but he was telling a story, and one of the characters in the story said it. It's the end of the story of the talents (or mina, as my Bible translates it). I grant you it's a strange thing for the guy to say, but say it he did, and not Jesus himself with no other context.
And don't bring the Nazis up: the Arabs sympathized with their interest in destroying the Jews. Haj Amin and King Abdul Aziz of none other than Saudi Arabia, for instance (the latter sent his personal physician!).
There's a lot more, but I need to wade through the rest of the article in detail first.
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/23/2004 21:52 Comments ||
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#2
Islam is such a diverse religion. There is a branch that spends enormous time and effort telling us how peaceful Islam is by emphasizing the kinder Meccan verses. Then there is a branch which plots to kill us infidels. They emphasize the Medinan verses and say that the Meccan verses have been abrogated. The moderates in this latter branch want to wait until Islam is strong before killing us, the radicals want to kill as many infidels as possible as soon as possible. Such diversity.
Does a pig wallow in mud? Does a bear shit in the woods? Are the Paleos murdering losers?
YES.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/23/2004 22:12 Comments ||
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#4
In case anyone has forgotten, watch the WTC video again.
Those which demand the whole world become Muslim were the high-jackers & suicide pilots.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/23/2004 22:20 Comments ||
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#5
Barbara and Mark --
Way to go! Agree entirely. Seems that what Allan wants is every infidel dead. Maybe Gentle could explain how sawing off Nick Berg's head with a dull knife promotes peace and love.
Posted by: Infidel Bob ||
05/23/2004 22:26 Comments ||
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#6
and the VP of the National Islamic Chaplain organization came out with an editorial on Islamonline saying that the Beheading of Nick Berg is.. that's right is.. consistent with Islam.
Its at: http://www.islamonline.net/English/Views/2004/05/article05.shtml##Samir%20Jerez
Violence and all its forms are subjectively interpreted. To non-Muslims, the desired interpretation would be âDrop all of your beliefs in fighting against our oppression.â
Posted by: Fred ||
05/23/2004 22:44 Comments ||
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#8
If they would spend less time trying to convince the 'infidels' that Islam is peaceful, and more time trying to convince Muslims Islam is peaceful, especially their own children, there wouldn't be a problem.
But one thing is for sure, Islam will become peaceful, one way or the other.
#9
The interesting thing is that both here and in the long thread, Gentle doesn't condemn the actions of the murderers. They can't and still be true to the Quran. The murderers are following their book, and the mealy-mouthed ones know they're not.
Posted by: scott ||
05/23/2004 22:57 Comments ||
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#10
Infidel Bob says:
Seems that what Allan wants is every infidel dead.
Then we're even - what this infidel wants is Allan dead.
Oh, wait.... He already is, and IN HELL waiting to welcome his deluded followers.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/23/2004 23:03 Comments ||
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#11
âI tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Luke 19:26-27)
Gentle...hello! this is a parable that Jesus is telling, Jesus is not asking for anyone to be brought before him to be killed!..maybe if Muslims were allowed to read the Bible they would know this.
#12
ROFLMAO. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. After accusing us damn kaffirs of taking the Koran out of context, Mullah boy quotes the Gospels out of context. The passage from Like that he quotes is part of a parable. Here it is in its entirety:
The Parable of the Ten Minas
11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[1] 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'
14"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'
15"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
16"The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'
17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'
18"The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'
19"His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'
20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'
22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'
24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'
25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'
26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.â â
The King in Jesus' parable is condemning his enemies (who sent the delegation in verse 14) who didn't want him to be king. Jesus is not literally condemning his opponents to death! I guess that hypocrisy is one of those words that don't translate into Arabic.
#13
Sorry guys. Of course Jesus is condemning those who resist His rule. You can't equivocate that. It's the tenor of the entire book of Revelation. But it's a far cry between God (who I believe Jesus IS) condemning His enemies and people killing people in His name. That's not His teaching. Self-defense is another matter. As I understand, the commandment is best translated 'Thou shalt not murder'. But even still He warns that those who take the sword may die by it. I can accept that and favor justly using the sword when necessary.
Posted by: scott ||
05/23/2004 23:19 Comments ||
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#14
Scott: You missed TS' and my points. He is talking about condemning people in the next life, not this life -- unlike a certain Arab "prophet."
#15
I guess Muhammed didn't 'do' parables..lol
Kinda hard to focus on spiritual truths when you are collecting and servicing your sex-slaves concubines and rousing your mujahideen to kill kill KILL! fight for Allah. And coming up with shit like 72 virgins in heaven. And concentrating on how not to look like a liar when you change what 'Allah' sent down when it doesnt suit your own whims any longer.
#16
Yeah. Condemning them in the next life, surely. But the action in Revelation is in this life. (3/4 of world pop killed - and He says HE does it {engineers it, I imagine - I don't like it either, but He didn't ask me. Funny thing about God - He thinks He's God})
Posted by: scott ||
05/23/2004 23:33 Comments ||
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#17
Peace be upon the 72 virgin insects that fly up the nose of each jihadee.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/24/2004 0:19 Comments ||
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Two and a half years into the US-led war on terrorism, the Al Qaeda network headed by Osama bin Laden has a new operations chief, some US and foreign intelligence officials now believe, and he is quickly becoming as deadly as the architects of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the 38-year-old Palestinian blamed for hundreds of deaths in terrorist attacks in Iraq, appears to have adopted the remnants of the sleeper cell network in Europe that helped spawn the Sept. 11 hijackers and now serves as the primary organizer of a diffuse, but growing collection of Al Qaeda veterans and new recruits on at least three continents, according to a recent US spy agency report, interviews with intelligence officials, and terrorism specialists. After months of investigation, a picture is emerging that connects Zarqawi, whom US officials believe is still in Iraq, to the deadly train bombings in Madrid in March, a foiled plot to blow up Jordanian government offices in Amman last month, and the recent capture of several suspected terror cells in Italy, among other plots, the officials said.
Zarqawi's been fingered as part of al-Qaeda, head of al-Tawhid — which apparently has a European and a Levant wing and is part of Ansar al-Islam. He's been associated, though more tenuously, with the various North African Salafist groups — Morocco, Algeria, and Libya, and with the Khattab's/al-Walid's Chechen Killer Korps. He also seems to float from Iraq to Syria to Turkey to Iran. No one else seems to be doing the same thing. That makes him the current Kingfish...
Some intelligence officials stop short of comparing Zarqawi's role to bin Laden's past field commanders -- his relationship to the Saudi fugitive and other Al Qaeda chieftains, they say, is not as clear-cut -- but acknowledge he has picked up where they left off.
When Ansar al-Islam was just getting off the ground its controller was Abu Zubaydah. Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, perhaps because he's Pakistani, seems to have concentrated on Pakland and Southeast Asia. Zarqawi's Jordanian-Paleo, and has more of an interest in the Mideast and Europe.
And as more dots in Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East increasingly lead back to Zarqawi, he appears to have filled the vacuum as the top Al Qaeda field organizer.
That's what I said. The intel guys probably noticed this at least a month before we did, and probably aren't weasel-wording it. Qaeda's reorganized into nation-based cells with a coordinating central body...
His capture could be even more important than bin Laden himself if American and allied intelligence services are to keep pace with what they believe has become a highly adaptable global movement of Islamic extremists following the Sept. 11 attacks.
It would be, but only on a temporary basis. There's another bright boy waiting to fill his shoes when he's hidden away on Diego Garcia or Kwajalein...
''Zarqawi's terrorism is not confined to the Middle East," according to a recent US intelligence report labeled ''for officials' use only" obtained by the Globe.
"For official use only" is the lowest "classification" level. It's a government document, not for distribution outside the government, but it doesn't contain classified information, even though it may be based on it.
''Zarqawi and his network have plotted terrorist actions against several countries, including France, Britain, Spain, Italy, Germany, and Russia. Since last year, members of his network have been apprehended in France, Britain, Spain, and Italy." But his links to other Al Qaeda followers and sympathizers, ability to recruit new foot soldiers, and personal ties with some leading suspects in a series of ongoing terrorist investigations demonstrate how he has picked up the standard left by top Al Qaeda figures such as Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah, both of whom are in US custody.
What is even more ominous, at least IMO, is that Zarqawi is supposed to work for Saif al-Adel. That means even whenever we snag his sorry ass the main driver of the current al-Qaeda is still out there - and in Iran. My guess is that al-Adel is the strategist and Zarqawi the tactician at this point; their writing as well as alleged locations would appear to support this conclusion.
I'd agree with that assessment. The al-Qaeda core is the custodian of the money chain and the theoretical base. That's why al-Adel, Zawahiri, and bin Laden remain the primary targets of the WoT. Capturing the OPSO only wins us a battle. It lets us take apart a bigger piece of the organization, but it's not decisive.
Zarqawi is believed to communicate through intermediaries and couriers along a chain of support from neighboring countries including Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. The Zarqawi network, now called the Al Tawhid Group, ''has been operating beyond Iraq for some time," said a US official, citing recent intelligence reports.
Coulda gotten that from Rantburg, starting in November 2001.
''I would not characterize him as a formal, micromanaging chief as some of the others," the official added, ''but I would certainly characterize him as an operations chief in his own right. He has served as a magnet of foreign fighters and operatives that have come into Iraq to incite sectarian violence, and there are a number of plots he has been responsible for over the last several months far beyond Iraq."
From his point of view, it doesn't even matter if an individual operation succeeds, only that it takes place. A certain percentage will succeed. He's fighting a war of attrition of public opinion...
''People are underestimating him," said Evan Kohlmann, a government terrorism consultant and author of the forthcoming book, ''Al Qaeda's Jihad in Europe: The Afghan-Bosnian Network." Kohlmann added that Zarqawi ''has inherited the 9/11 network."
Actually he's taken the leftovers, harvested the buds that were planted immediately before 9-11 and in the aftermath, and he's building on that basis.
Zarqawi has had a long history as a terrorist foot soldier and organizer. Born in the Palestinian refugee camp of Zarqa northeast of Amman in 1966, Zarqawi has moved freely among Islamic militant groups in Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. In 1986, he traveled to Karachi for training during the Soviet invasion of neighboring Afghanistan. He then returned to Jordan in 1990 to help establish a local terror group, Jaysh Muhammed, according to the US intelligence report. After serving a prison term in Jordan in the mid-1990s for conspiring to overthrow the government, he is believed to have given orders to a terrorist group based there that was planning attacks timed to the millennium New Year's celebrations in Jordan, Israel, and the United States, the report said. Those plots were foiled, but he traveled back to Pakistan in 2000, according to the French intelligence service, the DGSE, where he soon turned up in bin Laden's entourage in Afghanistan. Until the US-led invasion of Afghanistan in late 2001, Zarqawi ran two training camps, one near Kabul and another --specializing in chemical weapons training -- in Herat before he fled the US onslaught for neighboring Iran, according to the intelligence report.
Hmm, the Kabul camp hasn't come up before now. It is also makes it even less plausible that he was some kind of rival to bin Laden if he was working that close to the Afghan capital.
He was a bright boy middle manager on the fast track to an executive slot. I hope they're tracking all the guys who ran the training camps. They're the al-Qaeda cadres, much moreso than the cannon fodder who went through the camps and could belong to any of the nation-based organizations or who could be free-lancers...
Since then, he has used those contacts to recruit suicide bombers to come to Iraq. He also has used his contacts to cast a net to other Al Qaeda sympathizers in Europe, North Africa, and elsewhere, officials said. Zarqawi's influence is increasingly being felt far beyond Iraq. The suspected mastermind of the Madrid bombings in March that killed 200 people, a Syrian named Abu Musab al-Suri, as well as other North Africans from Morocco and Algeria who have been tied to blasts, are believed to have links to Zarqawi, according to intelligence officials.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/23/2004 12:01:15 AM ||
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i don't get it--how hard is it for task fiorce 20 to find a one legged jordanian in iraq--its not like you have that pashtuni hospitality thing going on--these dolts would sell their mother for 50 camels--what's going on--and where is izzat al douri too?--these asshats are the brains and they should've been bought a long time ago!!
Posted by: SON OF TOLUI ||
05/23/2004 3:19 Comments ||
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Zarqawi will be captured dead or alive.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/23/2004 3:36 Comments ||
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Hold on a minute; where does this leave Osama, aside from a possible stain on the wall in Tora Bora or crippled in some hospital-cum-cave somewhere?
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/23/2004 20:22 Comments ||
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Binny's the Lord High Keeper of the Checkbook, and he's the Man Who Knows People. He has no function as a strategist or as a general, and unless it can definitely be proven he's dead he'll continue filling the function, even though he's a-moulderin' in the grave and it's actually his staff making the phone calls and authorizing the transfers.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/23/2004 21:48 Comments ||
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OBL dead ? No video's for awhile.Others have been speaking for al Qaeda,such as al-Adel, Zawahiri.Now this about Zarqawi being a "field commander."
American businessman Nicholas Bergâs body was found on May 8 near a Baghdad overpass; a video of his supposed decapitation death by knife appeared on an alleged al-Qaeda-linked website (www.al-ansar.biz) on May 11. But according to what both a leading surgical authority and a noted forensic death expert separately told Asia Times Online, the video depicting the decapitation appears to have been staged. "I certainly would need to be convinced it [the decapitation video] was authentic," Dr John Simpson, executive director for surgical affairs at the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons, said from New Zealand. Echoing Dr Simpsonâs criticism, when this journalist asked forensic death expert Jon Nordby, PhD and fellow of the American Board of Medicolegal Death Investigators, whether he believed the Berg decapitation video had been "staged", Nordby replied: "Yes, I think thatâs the best explanation of it." Questions of when the videoâs footage was taken, and the time elapsed between the shooting of the videoâs segments, were raised by both experts, reflecting a portion of the broader and ongoing video controversy. Nordby, speaking to Asia Times Online from Washington state, noted: "We donât know how much time wasnât filmed," adding that "thereâs no way of knowing whether ... footage is contemporaneous with the footage that follows". While the circumstances surrounding both the video and Nick Bergâs last days have been the source of substantive speculation, both Simpson and Nordby perceived it as highly probable that Berg had died some time prior to his decapitation.
Much, much, much more at the link.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/23/2004 8:58:30 PM ||
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And yet his head is still not attached to his body.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/24/2004 10:06 Comments ||
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Lol! Asshole Asia Times? Mark, baby, we gotta move you to a better neighborhood news source! I'm worried about you, Paul, Dan, and Fred... all that bottom-trolling will eventually wear you guys down. I recommend a week at Hedonism II for each of you!
#3
I'm just sick of the people who feel some compulsion to "disprove" the video. I don't care about the details of timecodes and timestamps and gaps and the endless, mindless investigation into the video. Pointing at an 11 frame, or 11 minutes, or 11 hour gap in a camera's clock setting pales beside the most conclusive evidence: Berg's body over here and his head over there.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/24/2004 10:55 Comments ||
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Hedonism II - Is that one in Nana Plaza?
Posted by: Phil B ||
05/24/2004 10:57 Comments ||
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If the video is staged its because the Jihadi were stupid and didn't have enough tape or battery power for the first camera and so didn't get his death on film and had to replay the cutting for a second camera (explaining the timecode and audio sync issues).
So they are still cruel monsters, just very stupid cruel monsters.
KARACHI: Police today arrested six more suspects belonging to a militant group that tried to kill President Pervez Musharraf in 2002. The militants from the Harkat-ul Mujahideen al-Alami group were arrested in a raid in Karachi in which a huge quantity of weapons was also seized, a government official said.
"How huge? We just can't say."
Posted by: Steve ||
05/23/2004 9:19:53 AM ||
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In response to my complaint about his links on this thread here, Aris sent me, by private e-mail, the link to the interview from which the photo came. Itâs in german, but the link points to an english translation. Not exactly up to Rantburg standards, but I donât speak German, and assume most readers here donât either.
Interviewee Abid: I canât remember the date, I was already in prison for 25 days... They brought 3 people on that day, Asad was one of them... I was the last one in the row, he stood next to me, I asked him where he came from. He said his family came from Dulab... we warned him to stop talking, talking brings immediate punishment and beating. They picked him up and put him in a single cell. on the second day they began to interrogate him. it was always the same, they began by two days of sleep deprivation... normally you can get some sleep, but those being interrogated arenât allowed to sleep at all.
On the third day the interrogation begain. They pick you up and keep you all day, the following night and another day. Then one is dragged back. When youâre picked up you can still walk, but when you come back, you;re dragged on the floor.
When they brought Asad back to his single cell it already seemed like a funeral. It was normal, that anyone who did something wrong would be mistreated the entire day. They let us stand the entire day, sprinkled us with water, or put us in chains. Or they would handcuff our hands behind our backs and tie our feet together, so that you could only lie on the floor on your stomach. And when someone kicks you, you turn like a carousel. And you were always being sprinkled with water and kicked - for an hour, two or three. As long as they felt like it. Then they might leave you alone for a while, so that you can recover somewhat, and then they would begin again. They did that especially with those they were getting ready to interrogate. Did you see it with your own eyes?
Yes with my own eyes... there are no walls there, only wire fencing between the prisoners. And it was all being done right next to us.
Who was involved? How many soldiers and officers?
I couldnât differentiate soldiers from officers. They all looked the same to me. But there were a lot. The interrogators were 10 to 15. They came and picked the prisoner up. And not only Asad. Asad is only the one who died. Many others were tortured. Can you describe how the torturers looked? Do you know any names?
When you look at Americans they all look alike. You can;t tell the difference between them. Of course we don;ât know the names either. They pick the people up, torture them for a day, a night, and another day, and then bring them back from the interrogation., Were the interrogators Americans?
Yes, they were Americans.
snip. Includes strange questions as to who was white and black. Digging for a racial angle?
Was Asadâs death investigated by the Americans? Yes. A commission came. They picked up one of the prisoners and asked him questions. He said he didnât know anything, but someone near him knew. That was me. Then they asked me questions for two days. Four and a half hours on the first day, only about Asad. They said: we only came to ask about the death of Assad. There is no connection to anything else. I reported the facts to them, like Iâm doing now. From the moment they began to torture Asad until the moment of his death. There was a high General there, and I told him all that. Do you know the Generalâs name?
No, I donât know it.
Check out the photos at the original article. Its hard to make out the details of the death certificate, but it appears to be dated January 9, 2004. The sidebars were not translated, but using Bablefish, I take it this information came from official autopsy reports. The accusation is that someone tried a cover-up. What Aris didnât mention was that the JAGs clearly smelled something fishy too, and began to ask around. Not enough information at my fingertips to figure out what may have prompted them, but it appears their mandate in this case was somehow limited. Unacceptable. One NEVER limits oneâs watchdogs! Assuming similar bureaucratic delays, we should see some action by July/August taken on the assholes who did this. If not, heads should roll.
My fellow Ranterâs, I have know idea who this General is, so I am asking my fellow Ranterâs if anyone is in the know about this guy. Is this guy a bitter old General who did not get a chance to play with the modern US Military? Are we not surprised that this is another part of Viacomâs attack on the President? Are we not sick of this relentless attack on the President? Or is this something the whole country will be consumed with as a legitimate concern? Please, help me to understand the reason for this bitter tirade? Does this not sound a little bit anti-Semitic?
Zinni's criticism of the Iraq war seems grounded in his assessment of the situation. I was surprised to see the extent of it, but he's been against the war since before we invaded. I understand he's a good man, though, despite his belief in the UN. He played the part of Sysiphus in the last actual round of shuttle diplomacy with the Paleos. Unfashionable as it was at the time, he referred to Yasser as an "unreformed liar," to a predictable chorus of gasps, fainting spells, and similar attacks of the vapors...
Accusing top Pentagon officials of "dereliction of duty," retired Marine Gen. Anthony Zinni says staying the course in Iraq isnât a reasonable option. "The course is headed over Niagara Falls. I think itâs time to change course a little bit or at least hold somebody responsible for putting you on this course," he tells CBS News Correspondent Steve Kroft in an interview to be broadcast on 60 Minutes, Sunday, May 23, at 7 p.m. ET/PT.
The current situation in Iraq was destined to happen, says Zinni, because planning for the war and its aftermath has been flawed all along. "There has been poor strategic thinking in this... poor operational planning and execution on the ground," says Zinni, who served as commander-in-chief of the U.S. Central Command from 1997 to 2000. Zinni blames the poor planning on the civilian policymakers in the administration, known as neo-conservatives, who saw the invasion as a way to stabilize the region and support Israel. He believes these people, who include Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith, the undersecretary of defense, have hijacked U.S. foreign policy. "They promoted it and pushed [the war]... even to the point of creating their own intelligence to match their needs. Then they should bear the responsibility," Zinni tells Kroft.
In his upcoming book, "Battle Ready," written with Tom Clancy, Zinni writes of the poor planning in harsh terms. "In the lead-up to the Iraq war and its later conduct, I saw, at minimum, true dereliction, negligence and irresponsibility; at worst, lying, incompetence and corruption," he writes. Zinni explains to Kroft, "I think there was dereliction in insufficient forces being put on the ground and [in not] fully understanding the military dimensions of the plan." He still believes the situation is salvageable if the United States can communicate more effectively with the Iraqi people and demonstrate a better image to them.
The enlistment of the U.N. and other countries to participate in the mission is also crucial, he says. Without these things, says Zinni, "We are going to be looking for quick exits. I donât believe weâre there now, and I wouldnât want to see us fail here." Also central to success in Iraq is more troops, from the United States and especially other countries, to control violence and patrol borders, he says. Zinni feels that undertaking the war with the minimum of troops paved the way for the security problems the U.S. faces there now, the violence Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld recently admitted he hadnât anticipated. "He should not have been surprised," says Zinni. "There were a number of people who before we even engaged in this conflict felt strongly that we underestimated...the scope of the problems we would have in [Iraq]." The fact that no one in the administration has paid for the blunder irks Zinni. "But regardless of whose responsibility [it is]...it should be evident to everybody that theyâve screwed up, and whose heads are rolling on this?"
Posted by: Long Hair Republican ||
05/23/2004 1:20:59 PM ||
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Zinni is a Marine's Marine. I have heard him speak at the National Defense Universtiy. He is thoughtful, smart, and and an excellent tactitian. You have to at least listen to what he has to say, though you may disagree. He never shoots from the hip.
#2
'mouse is correct. Heard him speak at Lejeune couple years back. He's the real deal. If he said something was fucked up, it prolly was. Zinni's only allegiance is to our boyz in the field. I'll have to read the book to see what his specific gripes are.
#3
yup, Zinni is the first anti-Bush type who gets my attention. he oversaw relief efforts to the Kurds agter Gulf War 1 as well as Somalia. very, very solid. indeed when arguing with my Dad (a Navy 3-star) about the war, he specifically mentioned Zinni as someone who had his wondering if all this was smart.
that said, Zinni seems to go on and on about the neocons as if they somehow 'connived' and 'seduced' the Admin into this approach as opposed to simply convincing them rationally. FWIW.
#4
I also seem to remember seeing Zinni saying, after the Cole attack, that there wasn't really anything wrong with using Yemen as a refuelling port.
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
05/23/2004 23:02 Comments ||
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Zinni is also the infamously ineffective "special envoy" to the Israel-Palestine conflict from back in March 2002 ...
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
05/23/2004 23:03 Comments ||
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We've had a few Zinni articles in which he was even harsher. His attitude here is quite reasonable. There is no doubt plenty of room for valid criticism and Zinni's earned the right to deliver it.
One possible reason that heads have not rolled (beside W's extreme sense of loyalty to staff) is that the Pentagon did not get everything it wanted prior to the war. Arguably the fundamental error that has been made was overestimating how quickly Iraqi security forces could be stood up. Recall that the Pentagon wanted to train a bunch of exiles for this task (Chalabai's boys, etc.) and State did not support it. Also, State dropped the ball with regard to getting the 4th ID into Turkey.
So, on some matters, Rumsfeld is probably the guy saying "I told you so."
My main problem with Zinni is that he has the same exact worldview as the Arabists at State: we should constantly pressure Israel and tolerate the dysfunctional rule of assorted Sunni strongmen to keep the oil flowing and preserve 'stability.' "Neocon" concepts like reform or democracy only lead to 'instability' which is to be avoided at all costs.
This attitude gave us the pathologies that led to 9/11 and is unsustainable as WMD becomes technically achievable for and increasing number of countries and organizations. I am not sure if Zinni would be so outspoken regarding the performance of his Centcom successors if he did not thoroughly disagree with the entire idea of 'destabilizing' the region as we have done.
BAGHDAD, May 23 -- The battle for the holy Shiite cities of southern Iraq that has occupied U.S. soldiers for weeks appears to have moved from a broad engagement across several fronts to a sustained battle for a single elusive objective -- the rebellious cleric at the heart of the insurrection.
For seven weeks, U.S. forces have killed off scores of militants loyal to Moqtada Sadr, the Shiite cleric wanted by U.S. officials on murder charges who has fomented an anti-American insurrection across a region once receptive to the occupation. But they have left Sadr largely alone, fearing a deadly strike against him could make him a martyr in a religious culture that worships them.
But the U.S. militaryâs first push into the town of Kufa, where Sadr preaches each Friday, and a strike on a convoy carrying his top aide over the weekend suggests U.S. commanders have set aside those fears. U.S. military officers involved in the operations say the Kufa assault, which began before dawn Sunday and continued into the night, is the latest phase of a campaign that has squeezed Sadrâs forces out of Kut, Diwaniya, and, over the weekend, the holy city of Karbala.
"Weâre closing in," said Maj. David Gercken, a spokesman for the 1st Armored Division, who declined to characterize the operation as a hunt for Sadr. "Weâre keeping the pressure on. But itâs gradual."
U.S. military officials have five weeks to tame a broad anti-occupation insurgency before an interim Iraqi government assumes limited political authority. The Sadr rebellion has become among the most pressing security concerns for U.S. officials, and corralling its spread at a time of high anti-occupation feelings is now a top priority.
The resistance rose first in the Sunni Triangle, a region north and west of Baghdad once devoted to Saddam Hussein. Earlier this month, Marine commanders withdrew from Fallujah, a hotbed of anti-American feeling, after a month-long siege against the insurgents inside. They turned over security responsibilities to a group of former Baathist military officers, who once served in Husseinâs army.
The move angered Iraqâs majority Shiite population Awwwwww , which suffered under Husseinâs Sunni-led government, while failing to end attacks against U.S. troops. Two Marines were killed Sunday when their convoy was attacked with rocket-propelled grenades.
U.S. officials have ruled out such a deal to win Sadrâs withdrawal from Najaf and the demobilization of his thousands-strong militia known as the Mahdi Army. Sadr, the 31-year-old son of a revered Shiite cleric assassinated by Husseinâs government, is wanted in connection with the April 2003 murder of a moderate rival Shiite cleric, Abdel-Majid Khoei. Khoei had just returned to Iraq from exile in Great Britain when he was stabbed to death in Najaf, allegedly by Sadrâs followers.
Instead, U.S. officials have counted on a group of mainstream Shiite leaders to talk down the young firebrand with little support outside his own militia. But those negotiations have produced only division in Iraqâs majority Shiite population, and U.S. officials have expressed little hope in recent days for their eventual success.
The sudden withdrawal over the weekend of Sadrâs forces after weeks of street fighting -- and scores of casualties -- has both encouraged and mystified military officers after weeks of deadly street-to-street fighting. But the long-term results are difficult to judge.
"The bad guys may have left, they may have gone to ground, we donât know," said a U.S. officer whose troops were returning to Baghdad after reinforcing units stationed on the outskirts of Karbala.
The pullback of troops from Task Force 1-36, a unit of the 1st Armored Division, followed the cancellation of a U.S. push into Karbala set for last Friday. Instead of entering Karbala, as planned, U.S. troops that had taken up positions in a strategic mosque in the center of town withdrew.
"There was no cease-fire, no deal made in Karbala. We do not and will not make deals with militias or criminals," Gercken said.
Despite the calls for Shiites to rise up, Karbala residents seem less concerned about damage to religious sites than eager for Sadr to give up now that U.S. troops have left the city center. Like Najaf, the town depends on religious pilgrims, mostly from Shiite Iran, as a major source of income.
At the same time, Sadr forces in Najaf, farther south, and neighboring Kufa where Sadr delivers his regular Friday sermon, showed increasing audacity in attacks over the weekend. But there are signs in the developing U.S. offensive that Sadr, as much as his armed followers, may be the troopsâ intended target regardless of the fallout.
Since announcing the arrest warrant against him, U.S. military officials have continued to allowed Sadr to travel between Najaf and Kufa to deliver his regular Friday sermon. But last Friday, U.S. troops fired on a convoy of cars that resembled Sadrâs hours after he had called on Iraqis to rise up against the occupation during his sermon.
Then overnight Saturday U.S. troops, for the first time, drove deep into Kufa in tanks backed by attack helicopters. U.S. soldiers remained there Sunday, raiding a mosque and killing more than a dozen insurgents.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/23/2004 10:28:26 PM ||
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The first time the women at the paramilitary training camp here went for shooting practice most were nervous, some started crying and others did not want to pick up the guns. Nearly four weeks later, Shemaa Jasem, 22, held up her paper target showing three small holes near the bullseye, and was disgusted. âBad shooting today,â she said. These are some of the women that the United States hopes will help to take over the security of Iraq once the US troops finally depart, with some expected to join the Iraqi Civil Defence Corps (ICDC), the countryâs US-trained paramilitary force.
The 17 women shooting are all employees at the camp, jobs that come with some risk since sections of Iraqi society view them as American collaborators who make a softer target than the heavily armed US troops. Having been told to undergo basic weaponry and first aid training following a series of mortar attacks on the base at Amiriyah, west of Baghdad, some of the women now plan to join the ICDC. They will be employed at checkpoints and search women suspects during raids on homes. Where the mood was once fraught, it has become jovial. While two were shooting on Saturday on the range at this base west of Baghdad, the others sat on the ground chatting cheerfully, throwing pebbles at the pair wearing the hard hats waiting next in line to shoot. To pass the shooting section of training, the women had to get two out of seven shots on the piece of paper printed with a bullseye.
Many came back from the wooden boards at the end of the range waving their target papers in triumph as they returned to join their colleagues. âIf they get it in the middle, it means they are expert. If they hit the paper thatâs okay, it still means they can kill somebody,â said Staff Sergeant Walter Challapa, of the US 1st Cavalry Division, their trainer on the range. Some of the womenâs husbands did not know they were wearing an ICDC uniform during the day, which was stashed inside the base before they left for home, but Challapa said the mood was changing. Jasem, a former factory worker from Baghdad whose sister Sondas, 33, was also going through training, said she was proud of what she was doing. âThis is a good thing for my country, going against the terrorists and the bad guys,â she said. âMy mother and father are very happy. I want to join the American army one day. Wherever I go I tell people that I work for the ICDC and the coalition forces.â
Aeman Ali, 28 â not her real name because of fears of reprisals said the training had empowered women repressed in Iraqi society. âI wanted to do the best for my country, thatâs all. Before I just used to do the cleaning,â said Ali, a married mother of four daughters. âWe feel that this gives us (women) a kind of courage that we didnât have before. I have chosen to stay here. My husbandâs fine, but I have to work at home every morning at 5am.â Challapa said it was the first group of women he had trained in Iraq and that he had seen their confidence grow. âBefore the men were in charge of everything,â he said. âThis is a new generation and they canât go back.â
Jordan said yesterday that a prison cell still awaited Washingtonâs former Iraq favourite Ahmad Chalabi in the kingdom where he was convicted in his absence of embezzling millions in a bank scandal. US officials had earlier said they cut off funding to Chalabi, a member of Iraqâs US-appointed Governing Council. âChalabi was sentenced in Jordan and he is wanted for the verdict to be carried out,â Jordanian government spokeswoman Asma Khader said. She did not say if Jordan was actively seeking the former bankerâs extradition. Chalabi was convicted by a Jordanian court in 1992 of embezzling millions from Petra Bank whose 1989 collapse shook Jordanâs political and financial system, forcing it to spend in excess of $400m to bail out depositors. A sentence of 22 years hard labour awaits the man who was once one of Jordanâs most influential figures.
Police on Saturday said they have detained nine men in connection with the bombing of a Muslim shrine that killed three people and wounded about 100 â including the top British diplomat in Bangladesh. British High Commissioner Anwar Choudhury was injured on his right leg in the blast during noon prayers Friday at Hazrat Shahjalal shrine in Sylhet city. Four suspects were detained late Friday, a police officer said on condition of anonymity. Five others were picked up Saturday for questioning, he said. Five of those detained are members of the student wing of the country's main opposition party, the Awami League, Sylhet City Mayor Badruddin Ahmed Kamran told a news conference Saturday. The identity of the other four was not known.
Kamran, who is a local Awami League leader, denied the students were involved in the attack. "The government is using the violence to crack down on the opposition," he told The Associated Press. Choudhury was flown by helicopter to a military hospital in Dhaka after emergency treatment at Osmani Medical College Hospital in Sylhet. His injury was not serious, doctors said. Choudhury, a 44-year-old Bangladeshi-born Briton, was visiting the shrine after assuming his post last week. No one claimed responsibility for the blast in Sylhet, 120 miles northeast of Dhaka.
A police officer wounded in the blast died overnight, raising the death toll to three, doctors said. Prime Minister Khaleda Zia expressed "deep shock" at the blast and conveyed "sympathy to the British envoy and other injured people," her office said. The Awami League has accused police of security lapses and planned to hold protests in Sylhet city on Saturday. In London, British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said he was "shocked" by the attack.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/23/2004 8:33:51 PM ||
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Three anti-terror models emerge over the last month. As world leaders were grieving in Madrid over 201 victims of the train bombing, the Pakistanis demonstrate their Keystone Cops qualities, while Israel was taking flak from the Europeans for the targeted killing of Sheikh Ahmad Yassin and Rantisi. While neither [sic] model is perfect, you be the judge which one works.
The first model is bureaucratic. It has been articulated by Javier Solana, a Spaniard who is European Union foreign policy chief. âEurope is not at war,â Solana said. âWe must oppose terrorism energetically, but we must not change our way of life. We are democrats who love freedom.â His boss, Romano Prodi, EU Commission president said that the answer to fighting terrorism is, among other things, adopting the EU Constitution more quickly. European heads of state are adopting a declaration of solidarity with Spain and a call to jointly fight terrorism and âroot causes of terrorism â conflicts, poverty, deprivation and frustration.â
This is the "call the cops and bring the perps to justice approach." It assumes Interpol can get an arrest, an extradition can be arranged, and that the courts aren't either fixed or too whimpy to do anything. Jordan's still waiting for Abu Qatada and Yemen's still waiting for Captain Hook.
Dominique de Villepin, the former French Foreign Minister said that âa hard line security policy does not improve security unless it is complemented by a political strategy.â But two and a half years after 9/11 âpolitical strategyâ has not prevented the Madrid massacre. De Villepinâs answer to fighting terror is also to speed up the transfer of power from the coalition to the United Nations in Iraq. He apparently believes that terrorism will stop after that. De Villepinâs information about Iraq was deeply flawed. He stated that under Saddam âthere was no terrorism in Iraqâ. However, Baghdad harbored such terrorists and operations as Ansar Al Islam, the Abu Mussab al-Zarqawiâs Al Qaeda branch, Mohammad Abbas, the hijacker of Achille Lauro cruise ship and the murderer of the disabled American Leon Klinghoffer, and Abu Nidal, the 1970s super-terrorist. Saddamâs payments of $20,000 to each Palestinian murder-suicide bomberâs family was certainly terrorism.
Actually, it was financing terrorism, but why quibble?
The European answer in their âno-warâ on terrorism is more bureaucracy: Solana has appointed the Dutchman Gijs de Vries, former State Secretary of the Interior, to become the new EU anti-terrorism co-ordinator. However, European politicians warned that de Vries will be a âtechnical manâ, ânot like Tom Ridgeâ and the new structure will not become âan EU CIAâ.
At least not until the Eifel Tower is a puddle of molten iron...
Creating a Europe-wide security service is vital in view of disappearing borders in the EU, the Madrid bombing, and the Greek pleas that Athens is not ready, security-wise, for this yearâs Olympics. However, uniting European spooks will be like herding cats. Otto Schilly, the German Interior Minister and one of the toughest European terror fighters, has warned that historic and operational differences between European security services and intelligence agencies will prevent effective information sharing. Small countriesâ services are woefully underfunded. Most importantly, Europeâs continuous anti-American rhetoric and anti-Israel stance will impede Europeâs effective struggle against financial, political, and ideological sponsors of terrorism. Solana has called Israelâs targeted killing of the Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin âextremely terribleâ, while most European foreign ministers harshly denounced the Israeli operation. This included the Russian Foreign Ministry, which initiated a U.N. condemnation of the Yassin operation, while mopping up after Russian intelligence operatives who have assassinated Zelimkhan Yandarbiev, a Chechen terrorist leader in Qatar.
The second model anti-terror model, Keystone Cops, has emerged in Pakistan, where 7,000 troops have failed to storm an Al Qaeda compound which harbored up to 500 terrorists. President Pervez Musharraf has announced that a high value target, possibly Al Qaeda number two, Aiman Al Zawahiri, has been trapped. Unfortunately, the Pakistanis suffered casualties, got themselves ambushed, and fought to standstill. They ended up negotiating with local tribes in hopes to find an honorable way out. The Pakistani army, prodded by the US, failed to bring to bear an overwhelming artillery, armor and air power to finish Al Qaeda elements off. There was a great intelligence failure. Pakistanâs ISI â the spy agency with ties to the Taliban and Al Qaeda â supposedly did not know that the besieged compound had a mile-long escape tunnel. It is also possible that Al Qaeda sympathizers inside Pakistani military and intelligence service intentionally sabotaged the operation â and their presidentâs orders.
The third model was demonstrated by Israelis in Gaza. Hamas leaders, Sheikh Yassin and Rantisi, were killed by helicopter launched missiles. Yassin was taken out in a short window it takes to walk from a mosque to the Sheikhâs home. Yassin, on the U.S. global top terrorist list, has founded Hamas as a militant offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, a radical Islamist organization which aims to destroy of Israel and moderate Arab regimes. Rantisi took over promising the destruction of the Jewish state. Such operations take months of meticulous intelligence preparation and coordination between high tech assets, such as unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and Israeli Air Force helicopters. This operation was akin to elimination of a senior Al Qaeda operative responsible for USS Cole attack in Yemen by an U.S. Predator UAV.
Sheikh Yassin was one of the Middle Eastâs biggest mass murderers of Jews and Arabs, sending Palestinian boys as young as 12 for suicide bomber training, and sanctioning mothers to become human bombs. He was responsible for death of hundreds and life-long maiming of thousands of Israeli women, children and elderly. He set up brainwashing factories in mosques and schools to legitimize and enable murder of Jews whom he called âsons of monkeys and pigsâ, in preparation to total destruction of Israel. Glorifying him as a âspiritual leaderâ is like glorifying Dr. Joseph Goebbels as a âspiritual leaderâ of the Third Reich.
While not perfect, robust anti-terror operations will remain the most effective tools in a policymakerâs arsenal when diplomacy and deterrence fail. They are within the framework of international law, which provides the right of self-defense to nations which are under attack. These operations need supporting measures: interrupting terror financing, police coordination, and most importantly, the âwar of ideasâ â the battle for hearts and minds of Muslims. In absence of effective nation-states able to control global radical Islalmist terrorist networks, from Madrid to Gaza to to the North Western Province in Pakistan, targeted killings are legitimate acts of national self-defense.
I'd settle for the battle for testicles. You grab 'em by the testicles, their hearts and minds are sure to follow.
Posted by: Phil B ||
05/23/2004 19:54 ||
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If we take my preffered strategy of an economic solution to terrorism - flood the world with cheap nuclear energy - then targeted assasinations make sense. However, this requires different kinds of weapons. Think of small stealthy predator type vehicles with one time use weapons like MetalStorm, rather than MOABS and big bangs in general.
Posted by: Phil B ||
05/23/2004 20:18 Comments ||
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#2
A place for everything, and everything in its place.
Switching topix, I wonder if the author's a Rantburger? We've been referring to the Keystone Kops in Paklalonia since the Daniel Pearl kidnapping. Or maybe great minds just think alike...
Posted by: Fred ||
05/23/2004 22:26 Comments ||
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EFLThe United States wants Iraqâs sovereign creditors to write off 80-90 percent of the oil-rich stateâs debt but Paris wants to cancel just 50 percent, a French source said on the margins of a G7 meeting on Sunday. "The French position is 50 percent, which is a handsome gesture," the source said. Iraq owes about $42 billion dollars to the Paris Club, agroup of 19 creditor states including all of the worldâs industrialised economies, according to Paris Club estimates. French Finance Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said he expected the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to produce its assessment of Iraqâs debt in about 10 days time. "We know (the United Statesâ) conviction and the American position, which is to wipe out as much as is possible of Iraqâs debt," Sarkozy told reporters atfer the meeting in New York. "We agree completely with making an effort -- a substantial effort. The percentage will be decided by the heads of state."
France and Germany are among the bigger creditors in the club behind Japan and Russia, and are owed almost $6.0 billion and $5.0 billion respectively. Russia has spoken of a 65 percent write-off of debts owed to it, but officials have said this promise is far from definitive and linked to demands for confirmation of business contracts for Russian oil and gas exploration in Iraq. The Paris Club takes into account a countryâs economic potential, including natural resources like oil, when assessing its eligibility for debt writeoffs. Sarkozy said granting Baghdad greater debt relief than that given to less well-endowed nations would be difficult. "If we departed from the rules of the Paris Club, what would we say to those countries that did not have the same conditions," he said. "Fifty percent is the Paris Club rule," he added. Heads of state and government from the G7 -- the United States, Japan, Germany, Britain, France, Italy and Canada -- and Russia would address the issue at a June 8-10 summit in Sea Island, Georgia, Sarkozy said. Iraq is estimated to owe about $120 billion in all, of which much of the non-Paris Club debt is owed to Kuwait, Saudi Arabia as well as countries like China and Bulgaria. The G7 has set its sights on a deal on Iraqi debt by end-2004. European Union Economic and Monetary Affairs Commissioner Joaquin Almunia urged the economic powers to reach an agreement.
#4
Cancel everything owed to France, Germany and Russia, and announce a 1000 year payoff plan, with 0% interest, for the rest.
Let them learn the perils of loaning money to dictators.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
05/23/2004 20:13 Comments ||
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#5
LofR Exactly! If lending to dictators had the certainty of complete loss of the 'investment' when the dictator went, then no one would lend to them and being a dictator becomes a much less viable model for running a country.
Posted by: Phil B ||
05/23/2004 20:23 Comments ||
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#6
I believe that the French should be paid what Iraq owes them right after they repay the US for debts incurred before, during, and after WWII. Also, isn't there a precedent for nations disavowing debts illegally incurred by deposed governments? If we deduct all the debt incurred by Saddam for weapons, chemical weapon feedstocks, etc., the real write-off should be 90% - 100% rather than 50%. If bribes to French firms and politicians are to be deducted, the French probably owe the Iraqis money.
#7
Iraq can buy, on credit, some of the French debt owed the US. Then they can pay back the French with their own debt. The US can then cancel what the Iraqis borrowed to buy the French debt. It's a win-win.
Posted by: ed ||
05/23/2004 21:07 Comments ||
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#8
Let's see . . . they didn't want to get rid of Saddam, they don't want to give the new government a chance by reducing its debt . . .
Okay, at least they're consistent, but what do they have against the poor country?
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/23/2004 21:09 Comments ||
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#9
RWV
Phrawnce still hasn't paid off WWI debts, let alonw WWII. They're deadbeats.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/23/2004 22:30 Comments ||
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... The second time I met Chalabi was in post-Saddam Baghdad. I accompanied him to his "ancestral" home, which he and his extended family left when things were "going south" in Iraq. The only hitch this time is that the place was far from humble. Even in those days, the guy wasn't exactly a "man of the people." I mean, even Saddam Hussein could have made a better case for the Iraqi version of the "Abe Lincoln Raised in a Log Cabin" award, having paid his dues in a few squalid mud huts along the Tigris.
The last time I saw Chalabi was later that same year. A mass grave of several thousand slain Iraqi Shiites had been uncovered south of Baghdad. There were stories from years ago about Saddam's henchmen doing away with legions of his foes and hauling them by truckload to be buried, some of them alive. Now, families had come to identify their long-lost loved ones. It was, perhaps, the most emotional scene I had ever witnessed during my years in Iraq. And who was there? None other than Chalabi, working the crowd (and the press). Except it didn't exactly go to plan. When some of the mourners spotted him and got wind of his mission they started to hurl epithets â and worse â at him. He and his body guards barely avoided being hurled into the same grave the unlucky Saddam dissidents had long found themselves in.
So now Chalabi appears to be history, at least with the Coalition. While he made it to the Iraqi Governing Council, and he undeniably played a role in the dumping of dictator Saddam, his apparent dream of leading Iraq would seem now to be unrealizable. The most he appears able to do is undercut efforts by the U.S. to hand over the Iraqi reins to the U.N. and other Iraqis, who have more grass-roots support. Still, it's apparent Chalabi's not going down easy. "Let my people go," he declared at a press conference this week in defiance of the Coalition. My guess is that at least some Iraqis â and others â might be happy to see HIM "go"....back to Knightsbridge, London.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/23/2004 17:14 ||
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Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/23/2004 15:15 Comments ||
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#3
Islamic Heroes⢠firing from behind ambulances, women, and children - Religion of Cowards and stupid incestuous fuckwits, right, "Gentle"?
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 15:15 Comments ||
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#4
Did you even read the article, Gentle? Money quote:
âIf my soldiers can assist a Palestinian woman giving birth when six of their comrades have been blown to bits in the street but, at the same time, they fire at us from behind an ambulance, you must understand that we are at opposite ends of the scales of values. They are at the very bottomâ.
#9
The firing from behind ambulances or using woman and children as shields shouldn't surprise anyone who's read anything about the war in Chechnya, Somalia, or Iraq. Its a standard tactic among the Islamists these days.
#10
Muhammed, Mohammed...whatever! I think the important thing to note here, is that the second syllable is "ham". Mo * ham * med
That is the crux of the whole matter. These people are secretly craving a big old Ham & Swiss on Light Rye sandwich! With just a touch of Mayo and a Kosher Dill Pickle.
That would take the Jihad out of them.
-AR
Posted by: Analog Roam ||
05/23/2004 20:03 Comments ||
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#11
Palestinians are a ruined people. Whatever values they might have had have drained away during 55 years of welfare in UN funded "refugee" camps, eating UN provided food, learning nothing but the Koran and how to hate Jews. If the Israelis were to magically disappear and the West cut off the welfare payments, the Palestinians would starve to death within a year. All they are good for now is to march in the streets mouthing hate and trying to kill Jews by blowing themselves up.
#12
I'm w/RKB. I've dealt w/Israelis on a mil/professional level and am not a fan of the entitlement syndrome I've got from them. However, the paleos w/hamas/hizbollah speak for themselves. When your only targets are blowing up women and children while hiding behind your own - you are both worthless and contemptuous.
Dozens of Palestinians, angry over Israelâs bloodiest raid in the Gaza Strip in years, smashed the windows of a U.N. car Saturday and mobbed a shipment of humanitarian aid. "Where have you been?" one man screamed as others pounded on the cars in the U.N. convoy as it entered a sealed-off neighborhood in Rafah refugee camp to survey damage and deliver aid supplies, including powdered milk.
Wherever they were, I'll bet they're thinking of going back...
Israel pulled many troops and tanks out of the camp on Friday following international pressure to end more than three days of fighting but denied the operation, in which 42 Palestinians were killed and hundreds left homeless, was over. In the Tel al-Sultan neighborhood, witnesses said the army pulled out its armored vehicles but continued to cut off access roads to the rest of the camp, and had left residents without power or running water for days. An Israeli army spokeswoman said international relief workers in the past few days were allowed to deliver aid, such as medicine, food and water, to residents in the camp. Inside Tel al-Sultan, roads were ripped up by tank tracks, which also ruined outlying fields. Armored vehicles and tanks blocked the entrance to the neighborhood, preventing residents from entering or leaving.
Two small girls stood in their doorway and waved empty water jugs as the convoy from the United Nations relief agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, passed near their home. "We were four days without water," said Ramy Salem, 22. "We didnât feel safe. The children cried for four days." Maha, 12, said: "There is no milk. We want milk." Dozens of Palestinian men and boys gathered at the entrance to Tel al-Sultan and a few threw stones at cars in the convoy, which carried UNRWA chief Peter Hansen.
Hansen said bodies of Palestinians who died in the raid, many of them from Tel al-Sultan, were in a morgue because their families were unable to come out and bury them. "I appeal to the army to enable families secluded in Tel al-Sultan to be given permission to participate in burials," Hansen told journalists. "There are still a number of people who have not been buried." He said the raid, which began Tuesday, had left more than 1,600 Palestinians homeless. The army, which said it was searching for tunnels used for arms smuggling dug under the Egypt-Gaza border, mounted its biggest Gaza raid in years after militants killed 13 soldiers last week. Ismail Abu Mohsen, 20, said he saw Israeli snipers shoot Palestinians in the street. "Anyone who went out into the street, the Israelis shot them," he said. "I saw two people get shot on this street in the neck and head." Abu Mohsen did not say whether the two people were armed.
Suleiman Baroud, 47, said soldiers took over apartments, locking residents in a single room for days. "They came in the house and put the whole family in one room," he said. Residents said about 35 homes were demolished and dozens damaged during the raid. The army disputes this, saying it destroyed only five houses and others had been damaged by gunbattles with Palestinian militants.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/23/2004 3:35:12 AM ||
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Dozens of Palestinian men and boys gathered at the entrance to Tel al-Sultan and a few threw stones at cars in the convoy, which carried UNRWA chief Peter Hansen.
Jeez, Pete, 50 something years of being Sugar Daddy and this is the thanks you get. Must be enough to make you think about skimming even more off the top.
#3
bury em in the tunnels you bastards dug to smuggle arms
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 12:31 Comments ||
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#4
Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular are genetically incapable (probably from prolonged inbreeding) of understanding cause and effect. They are human veal, cared for from birth in a confined space and whose only purpose is death. The West should cut off the dole and let these animals fend for themselves.
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 14:59 Comments ||
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#8
God help them
Maybe He did by isolating them in one of the planet's most inhospitable regions where they could kill each other and themselves with joyful abandon without taking too many innocent people with them. Sadly, the advent of modern transportation changed all that.
...accept Christ into their hearts, so that they may move beyond the hatred and evil taught to them in the mosques and begin living as free, moral men.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/23/2004 16:04 Comments ||
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#10
God help you
P.S. Some poeple on this site (excluding Antiwar, saifee & I) do not move beyond the hatred and evil, though they have accepted Christ into their hearts.
Once again:
God Help You.
Frank: Next time your site "stutters", don't blame me.
EFL
U.S. soldiers killed 16 suspected insurgents early Sunday and found a large cache of weapons at a mosque during an operation in the city of Kufa, a stronghold of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and his Mehdi Army militia, military officials said. Preceded by a heavy artillery barrage, more than 20 tanks, armored personnel carriers and about 600 troops entered the darkened city in south-central Iraq after leaving their base in nearby Najaf late Saturday. The soldiers left just before dawn, a few hours after they entered the city.
CNNâs Jane Arraf, reporting from an armored personnel carrier of the 2nd Battalion, 37th Armor Regiment, described the sound of the vehicles rolling through the streets as "intimidating." Aided by Iraqi civil defense forces, troops found AK-47s, rocket-propelled grenades, rocket launchers and more than 2,000 rounds of ammunition. Some of the weapons were stashed in the mosqueâs minaret. The operation marked the first time U.S. troops had entered Kufa since the insurgency began several weeks ago. Officials said it was not aimed at capturing al-Sadr but at denying the Mehdi Army a safe haven in Kufa. Another weapons search took place Sunday across the Euphrates River to the east, at a palace that once belonged to deposed Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.
Meanwhile, a roadside bomb Sunday ripped through an Iraqi police car, killing one police officer and wounding two others in the southern city of Basra, according to Col. Khasim Ahmed, an Iraqi police official. Earlier, a mortar landed in a house in Basra, killing one civilian and wounding four, two of them critically, Ahmed said.
Iran acknowledged it had lines of communication with Iraqi politician Ahmed Chalabi, whose home was raided Thursday by Iraqi authorities. But Tehran denied that it had received classified information from Chalabi about U.S. troops in the region.
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Saturday that dozens of people killed in a U.S. attack in the Iraqi desert early Wednesday were attending a high-level meeting of foreign fighters, not a wedding. Kimmitt said six women were among the dead, but he said there was no evidence any children died in the raid near the Syrian border. Coalition officials have said as many as 40 people were killed.
Posted by: Zenster ||
05/23/2004 11:34:57 AM ||
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#1
As if Tehran would confirm Chalabi was their spy? Surprise meter....
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 11:45 Comments ||
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#2
I dunno about this Chalabi business, Frank.
I think it may be a way for State to get back at Rummy (the Pentagon).
He didn't go down for the Abu Ghraib "scandal" so they took out this guy.
Score one for Bremer and Foggy Bottom.
I'm sure Chalabi's crooked, but that's how he's survived as long as he did.
As for the story, we got 16 bad guys! Yea!
And our troops have cornered the chief asshat al-Sadr in this shithole town called Kufa!
Looks like the uprising may be about to lose all its air.
HOOAH!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 11:52 Comments ||
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#3
Aided by Iraqi civil defense forces, troops found AK-47s, rocket-propelled grenades, rocket launchers and more than 2,000 rounds of ammunition. Some of the weapons were stashed in the mosqueâs minaret.
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Saturday that dozens of people killed in a U.S. attack in the Iraqi desert early Wednesday were attending a high-level meeting of foreign fighters, not a wedding. Kimmitt said six women were among the dead, but he said there was no evidence any children died in the raid near the Syrian border. Coalition officials have said as many as 40 people were killed.
Both of the above paragraphs were bolded (and that emphasis duly noted) in my original posting along with an "EFL" in the header. Any reason why these were altered (along with the article's title, which I understand)?
State of emergency necessary to quell violence, he says
Nigerian President Olusegun Obasanjo said Saturday the state of emergency he declared in part of his country was necessary to quell deadly religious violence. "The tension all over the country went down, and people, no matter where they live and how they live, no matter their religious affiliation or their ethnic background, now feel a sense of relief," Obasanjo said. "They feel that they have hope, they feel that, âOh yes, this is the best thing.â " Obasanjo initiated the controversial policy a week ago. He spoke to CNN Saturday in his first interview since the decision. In February and March, dozens were killed in clashes between nomadic Muslim Fulani herdsmen and Christian farmers in the central state of Plateau. The government sent in forces to halt the violence, but the fighting escalated over the following weeks, threatening to spread north into Muslim areas. Fat lot of good that did then, no?
On May 14, some Muslims in the northern state of Kano went on a killing spree, leaving about 40 Christians dead. Muslims described the attacks as revenge for the fighting in Plateau. Or maybe just a continued campaign of persecuting Christians.
The next day, Obasanjo declared a state of emergency in Plateau -- but not in Kano. Fat lot of good ... but I repeat myself.
He sent military forces into Plateau and assigned an administrator -- retired army Gen. Chris Alli, a Christian -- to oversee the state. The governor of Kano got only a verbal warning -- prompting outrage among many Christians. Nothing like a stern lecture to subdue muderous cutthroats. These guys must have all gone to the same Yemenese military academy.
Obasanjo said Kano "is a flow out of Plateau. If the governor in Plateau had taken the right steps, there would not have been Kano. You donât deal with symptoms and leave the disease." Disease = Obasanjo. BandAid = Alli
He insisted the move was constitutional and said the government at every level "must provide security for every Nigerian wherever they stay. We cannot allow a situation where Nigeria is degenerating almost endlessly into chaos and insecurity." Such unrest interferes with the proper course of grafting and corruption!
Check to see where the money and ideology is coming from.
Obasanjo said the decision was not made without considerable thought and that the situation had been worsening for three years. All without much in the way of any substantial intervention.
"Some people, of course, naturally, will say, âWell, where does it end?â I sincerely hope that I will not have to take such a drastic decision again," he said. Obasanjo said he chose to declare a state of emergency because of the severity of the situation. "My heart bled when I saw the situation there. So something had to be done, something drastic and this is what has to be done." Although violence has decreased, there were isolated incidents of violence in Plateau on Friday, when Alli began a controversial process of handing out cash in exchange for weapons. For those unclear on the concept, weâll do a short drylab thought experiment. When you purchase weapons, you must offer the holders of said arms more than they are worth, or else, why should they sell them? Those individuals will then turn around and buy another, potentially better, weapon. Obasanjo and Alli have effectively financed a weapons upgrade program. Sheer brilliance!
Posted by: Zenster ||
05/23/2004 10:58:59 AM ||
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EFL
Two Palestinians were killed on Sunday after a vehicle exploded in the West Bank town of Nablus. Defense establishment officials said that the two were senior Hamas members. The blast was apparently caused by explosives carried by the two. Military officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, denied any army involvement in the incident. [work accident?, rigged by an undercover op?, microwave projection device that Israel supposedly has???]
Posted by: mhw ||
05/23/2004 10:05:08 AM ||
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#1
[work accident?, rigged by an undercover op?, microwave projection device that Israel supposedly has???].
Occam's razor still applies, even with such irrational mentalities as terrorists. One can never rule out the profound and mind-numbingly glorious potentialities of sheer stupidity.
#2
Yeah.
I agree.
The "profound and mind-numbingly glorious potentialities of sheer stupidity" that led the "Military officials" to make this statement thinking anyone might believe thim.
#3
"troll to sinktrap"
eat me Gentle. These wastes of carbon and oxygen have been sent to the hell they deserve - your culture of death soon to follow - I'd have a sno-cone now, you won't get them there
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 10:50 Comments ||
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#4
No they have not.
By god's will they are now alive and in paradise.
Happy with the splendors Allah has granted them.
#5
You culturally insensitive clods! Don't you know it is traditional for Palestinians to carry large quantities of explosives with them wherever they go.
Posted by: M Moore ||
05/23/2004 10:56 Comments ||
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#6
"By god's will they are now alive and in paradise. Happy with the splendors Allah has granted them."
BWAhahahahahahaha!
You actually believe this crap?
When are you gonna strap on a suicide belt and commit martyrdom, Gentle honey?
The only splendor that Allah (Mohammed's alter ego) can grant is some grill space on the personal barbecue that Satan's given him in Hell!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 11:02 Comments ||
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#7
Allan can grant anything - he has nothing but a dark eternity in hell to offer. You deserve it
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 11:03 Comments ||
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#8
By god's will they are now alive and in paradise.
Happy with the splendors Allah has granted them.
Thank you for clearly identifying yourself as a source of profound evil. One can only imagine the immense pride you must take in perverting human worship of the spirit. Please take a moment to congratulate yourself on being a world class rectal cavity.
#10
The IRA planted between 20,000 and 30,000 bombs and only blew themselves up about 10 times. Judging by recent news, the Arabs are somewhere between a hundred and five hundred times more incompetant. Dropping large amount of explosives, detonators and red, green and blue wires on the Arab world would solve an awful lot of problems.
Posted by: Phil B ||
05/23/2004 11:08 Comments ||
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#11
Allan
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 11:09 Comments ||
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#14
that's a lotta raisins, BigEd. Must be one of those big SunMaid boxes huh? Boy will they be disappointed. "I killed myself for Allan and all I got was this box of dried grapes? WTF?"
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 11:41 Comments ||
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#15
Gentle - this idea of 'splendours' and 'rewards' in heaven - all a bit materialistic, isn't it? Strikes me as rather shabbily unspiritual. The sexual reward thing is just, well, a bit lacking in class. Back to the point - what kind of god saves the best 'rewards' for people who devoted their lives to murdering other people? I'm curious to know.
#16
Bulldog - the kind that DOESN'T EXIST, except in the minds of his pathetic and perverted followers, who "follow" this morloch of their imaginations because of their shame in their lack of any success of their own (inventing bomb belts doesn't count).
It's a pathetic society that has invented absolutely nothing except a different method of murdering Jews.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/23/2004 11:55 Comments ||
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#17
Sorry about the troll-baiting Fred ;-)
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 12:24 Comments ||
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#18
gentle....you are a devil worshipping piece of shit. Your "allah" is nothing more than lucifer himself. Before this is all over....every one of you islamic bastards will be burning in HELL forever. And WE WILL send you there, you son-of-a-bitch.
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
05/23/2004 12:32 Comments ||
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#19
Go Pete! You rock!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 12:43 Comments ||
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#20
Oh dear !
Where do I start?
Okay, Pete:
I am a girl.
all the rest of what you said is as equally worng as the word "son".
#22
I am on your side Gentle. I hope more of the Paleo leadership feels the same and blows themselves up. Or maybe our Zionist masters will help usher them to the bosom of allah.
#25
whitecollar, what poor Gentle doesn't know is that just when most of America had been lulled into forgetting 9/11 (as if!) and the Leftist Media was trying to beat us all to a pulp over the Abu Ghraib stuff, along came the Nick Berg beheading video and we all woke back up to who and what we're fighting over in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Many of us had been trying to be "nice" to Mooooslims, even after 3,000 of our peaceful civilians were slaughtered on 9/11, but that's getting harder and harder to do as they keep showing us that their "religion" is about anything but peace and has everything to do with making war and killing us.
God help them if there's another attack here like 9/11 or worse.
But they've been warned and they've been told.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 13:48 Comments ||
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#26
Amen Pete!
What kind of religion would think that being able to rape 72 virgins in the after life is heaven?
Gentle - I think it is in "my" gods twisted sense of humor that would make you "think" that 72 virgins await you, and just before he opened the doors to welcome you, he would send you to hell, and watch you fall into the arms of Satan. Where there are 72 big men with very "Big Manhood" ready to take turns on you Gentle, for eternity!! That is what awaits you!
#27
What a fortuitous moment in history. A culture twisted into a death cult runs into a culture that has developed a military that is the most efficient killing machine ever. Coincidence? Only Allan knows. Praise be to Allan.
#28
YOU HAVE FILTHY MINDS.
YOU SHOULD NOT USE SUCH FOUL LANGUAGE WITH ANYONE.
& YOU SHOULD CERTAINLY NEVER EVER TALK ABOUT ANY GOD OR RELIGION THAT WAY.
NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO JUDGE WHICH CULTURE OR RELIGION IS SUPERIOR.
TOUGH LUCK
& PLEASE:
WASH YOUR MOUTH
#29
Gentle - I'm not out to bait you, I'd just like a response to my thoughts. The anticipation of crude carnal and/or materialistic rewards seems to motivate much of the violence that comes from Muslims towards non-Muslims. Are you content with that?
#30
Ouch! I seem to have struck a nerve here. Let's continue this train of thought. OK, where do the virgins come from? Will you kill me for blasphemy? Any Gentle Fatwas pending? I'd be happy to leave the Muslims in a 7th century utopia. However, you can't seem to keep your hands to yourselves.
#34
We do have the right to judge when the current crop of global killers are all followers of the same death cult/moon god cult.
We were attacked on 9/11 and 3,000 of our citizens were murdered in cold blood by Muslims and now we're fighting back and trying to surgically remove the cancer of IslamoFascism in the Middle East by bringing democracy.
Whether they only represent the radicals of Islam or ALL of Islam is for the Arab world to decide NOW before there's another IslamoFacist attack!
I foresee the day when Islam will be banned worldwide because of this war, which Bin Laden, the Ayatollah Khomeini and other Islamic clerics have declared on America and on the non-Muslim world.
People in many countries across the planet are tired of cleaning up the bodies or the pieces of bodies of their dead, killed by Muslim jihadis and some day soon they will clamor for there to be no Muslims, even if they claim to be "peaceful."
It seems many of you can no longer be trusted.
If Islam doesn't reform itself, there will be no more Islam soon.
You'd better get busy in our own back yard trying to reform Islam in the UAE and work for womens' rights and for democratic reforms in your government.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 14:10 Comments ||
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#36
Having seen much of the 7th century pedophiliac and incestuous society that occupies current Islam, I'd say most of the virgins promised the Shahids and Jihadis must be 7-8 yrs old and able to run faster than the male relatives...
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 14:14 Comments ||
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#37
Do they really think they are going to screw all 72? Do they get to see their brests (booobs). Just asking, no big deal, Gentle. And thank you for being so polite.
#38
Dear Penthouse Forum:
Some Jihadis and I were building a in my basement to kill some infidels when the next thing I know seventy-two of the hottest......
#39
Oh God.
Frank, you really believe that?
You're not just saying that to make me angry?
Oh my God.
You actully think that it is true?
Then you know NOTHING about Islam, nothing.
#40
Dear Penthouse Forum:
Some Jihadis and I were building a bomb in my basement to kill some infidels when the next thing I know seventy-two of the hottest......
#41
Allan is the moon god is a nonce, yes thats right a nonce,the practice of peodophilia is extremely comman in Isalmic countries and seeing as they all follow Allans laws it makes Allan a nonce!
Posted by: Shep UK ||
05/23/2004 14:26 Comments ||
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#42
True, w.r.! ;-)
AntiVert, you're on your weird Bible knowledge again (or rather lack of knowledge).
God--JEHOVAH--gave the land of Israel to the Children of Abraham and SARAH (not Abraham and Haggar).
One of the key things about Jesus Christ is his lineage (from the tribe of Levi)--through Abraham and Isaac and King David--so that God could show His people--the Hebrews--that Christ was literally "one of them."
In the Middle East still, family and tribe are everything.
Abraham SINNED when he lay with the handmaid Haggar because he and Sarah were getting old.
God promised Abraham that out of his "seed" would come many nations, but Abe got tired of waiting for Sarah to conceive and gave in to Haggar's charms.
Out of that union came Ishmael and the founder of the prototypical Muslim/Arab race.
The Lord promised Haggar and Ishmael that they would found a "nation," too, but its inheritance would not be that of the Hebrews, His chosen people.
Sarah did have a son--Isaac--whom Abraham almost sacrificed for God, prefiguring Jesus.
The Bible is a series of stories of God making a contract with the Jews, them breaking their part of the bargain, His punishment for their falling away and then their rapprochement...until He sends His Son to atone because it becomes clear to the Lord after hundreds of years of this that the Jews can't keep the laws and the convenants no matter what.
But as for the Paleostinians, they don't get bupkus in the Bible or anywhere else because they didn't exist until 1948!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 14:30 Comments ||
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#43
It was Ismael who was almost sacrificed, when god brought down a sheep to be killed in his place.
It is why we celebrate "Eid Al Adha"="Eid of the sacrifice.
Please get your facts straight
#47
Jen=Bushie, Bush Lover, Bush supporter, Bush Backer
4 MORE YEARS! HOOAH!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 14:40 Comments ||
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#48
my final comment to Gentle and Anitiwar - taken from Bill Whittle's post elsewhere on RB today:
"Radical Islam is a religious cult based on constant, never-ending warfare. I personally am aware of no other religious tracts that are as filled with page after page of conquest, strategy and military jargon. Islam rose to prominence under the sword, and the Prophet was, above all else, a military commander determined to spread his faith by conquest and enslavement. Islam has rules for when prisoners should be released, ransomed, sold into slavery or have their throats cut. As a matter of fact, Islam has rules for everything. What to eat, how to wash, where and when and in which direction to pray. Islam has rules for the treatment of animals and the treatment of women. There is no part of daily life that is not specifically addressed, sanctioned or outlawed by Islam.
And contrary to post 9/11 spin, the most accurate translation of Islam is not âpeace.â Prior to 9/11, the universally accepted translation of the concept of Islam was âsubmission.â
Of course, submission sounds a little more prickly to American ears. Matter of fact, itâs hard to imagine a word that would so enrage the American psyche than the concept of submission. âTyranny,â perhaps, but tyranny is only what we are expected to submit to. Americans have fought against submission and Tyranny since there have been Americans. Thatâs what we do. That is who we are. And ever since the Revolution against submitting to the tyranny of King George, American revulsion with the entire idea of submission has been watered each generation by fresh waves of immigrants who have fled here escaping submission.
And here are two final thoughts on this issue:
First, Islam philosophically divides the world into two camps â this is Islamâs definitions, not mine -- Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb. Dar al-Islam is the House of Submission. Dar Al-Harb is not the House of Infidels. It is the House of War.
I, and others who see a terrible threat in the growth of Radical Islam, did not invent this term. It is considerably older than my humble self; besides, I do not speak Arabic. It is their term. And unlike people determined to hide until this problem goes away, I am determined to take Islam at its word.
Finally, consider this: Muslims are angrily at war with Buddhists in East Asia. Muslims are at enraged with Animists in Africa. Of course, none of this approaches the sheer hatred that Muslims bear towards Hindus in the South Asia peninsula. And this foaming hatred blanches compared to the white-hot fury Muslims feel to the Christian American Crusaders. And this fury is but a candle to the incandescent, boiling, supernova of murder they feel toward the Jews.
Does anyone beside me detect a pattern here? You know, my Dad told me once, âBill, if more than three people in your life are utter, total assholes, then maybe itâs you.â "
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 14:41 Comments ||
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#49
YOU HAVE FILTHY MINDS.
And how is praising mass murderers not filthy?
POT > KETTLE > BLACK
There is little pornography filthier than the minds of those who can condone terrorism, Gentle. Your ability to countenance such horror is an incontrovertible discredit to your entire faith and completely repudiates your own worth as a putative human being.
#52
No, my book says it was Isaac. I think the Jews would agree with me here as well. Enough smart-assery on my part however. Here is where I stand. You are the product of a cult. Founded by a bandit king using the elements of extant religions in the area to create a appearance of authenticity. Your cult was spread throughout the Middle East by bloodshed, oppression and terror. My God, sent his son to die for the world's sins. His followers spread this Gospel as itinerate preachers most of whom gladly died preaching the word. Christianity started as a religion of the oppressed and came to rule most of the world. Islam started as a religion of an oppressor and has run out of justifications.
#53
LHR, hope not, but if all I hurt were feelings, that's OK.
I'm not blowing people up or sawing their heads off and yelling "Jesus Akhbar!" because they don't believe as I do.
I'm just trying to give poor deluded AntiBrains a "quick and dirty" theology lesson.
Hate to say it and maybe they've changed, but most Catholic churches don't usually stress Bible study that much.
I believe the custom is to let the priest tell you what you need to know about everything including Biblical history.
(Even mine's getting a little rusty. It's been a while since I joined the Baptists to worship--I'm here on Sunday morning, huh?)
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 14:49 Comments ||
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#54
I just posted an article.
Could you all please read it?
#58
Make mine a "No," too.
In fact, make mine a double!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 14:57 Comments ||
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#59
Jen -
I am a huge fan! Keep beating the hell out of the ignorant. I am howling here in my bunker! Howling at them (Antiwar & Gentle) trying to win a gun fight with a knife.
Do you think Rantburg Master planted these two idiots just so we could be so entertained on this day of rest?
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 15:07 Comments ||
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#67
Yeah, what LHR said.
If you came here to "convert" us all into Muslims because it's such a fabu religion with so many perks, forget it!
(I can't believe we've given you as much time as we have.)
The time for you to have given your "Islam is Peace" lecture and possibly get a polite audience in this country was 2 and 1/2 years, 2 combat ops and at least 4 major attacks on Westerners back.
Now, you're just living in an echo chamber, which is why you keep appealing to AntiBiotic for "understanding" and you're complaining.
You want us to tell you that Americans are "OK" with the Arab world staying the way it's always been and letting radicalized and now militarized Islamists attack us with impunity because deep down, you're all really "peaceful" and you worship a "merciful" god.
THAT. IS. NOT. GOING. TO. HAPPEN.
Not here on this site and more seriously, not in your world.
So, Learn it. Love it. Live it.
If you don't believe me, check out the goings on at the latest Arab League summit--the news isn't good (for your side).
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 15:10 Comments ||
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#68
Why are we here?
That's a question I've been trying to answer most of my life. Why are we here? Are we alone? Is there other life in the universe? Does God exist? If there is no soul, why are you you, and me me? Why can't we be us, sharing a single mind? What will happen to us when we die? What is the answer to life?
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/23/2004 15:11 Comments ||
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#69
Thanks Frank, I'm a little slow today if I was snookered. If that is the case then I am going back to smartassery.
I would assume it is to ostensibly persuade others here over to your own viewpoint through skilled articulation of factual information. None of which either of you are doing at present.
#74
RE: #44, the Palestinians have always existed. What a laugh, me, I wanna LIVE, and I will kill anyone who wants to stop me doing that.
OT, slightly, Gentle, strange name for a supporter of terror.
That's a really good question. Why ARE you here? Why do you continue seeking the company of people who obviously despise you and consider your religion little more than a primitive, superstitious death-cult? Why do you seek out the company of people who hold everything you believe in utter contempt?
Why?
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/23/2004 15:17 Comments ||
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#79
Gentle, you are going to have a hard time convincing most of us here that Islam is all about peace and love.
I've *read* the Koran and while my Arabic is shaky, if I go slowly and use various references I can make it through.
The reality is that a literal reading of the Koran, as taught in most Islamic schools of thought, does indeed call for violent attacks on any who do not submit.
I for one don't plan to. It's that simple.
And I *read* other things too, like the sermons being preached in many mosques around the world. I read mullahs and imams calling other humans pigs, dogs, filth, less than dirt. That ANGERS me a whole lot, you know. And no, I'm not Jewish. Or, for that matter, a Zionist.
I am, however, female - a mother and perhaps soon a grandmother. And I tell you directly, what is said above is true: either the Muslim world reforms itself and controls those who spew hatred and violence, or we will do it for you.
#82
Thanks Frank, upon further review the writing styles are enough alike to indicate that Gen and Anti are the same. Maybe she is converting early to avoid the rush.
#83
You know what really hurts?
That you actually believe this.
To me it feels as though you are trying to convince me that that all humans have 6 hands.
I mean; how strange is that.
Stop it. All of you.
Open your eyes. This isn't some sort of game.
I wish you could see it the "real" way.
No, don't try to get smart all you hot shots.
read this and , for once, act like adults.
Don't let your anger blind you.
rkb:
I'm a muslim girl.
I'm 18.
I respect you and understand your anger.
Just TRY to look at this from a diffrent perspective.
#84
Yes, and according to some Islamic preachers, now that you've preached Islam to us, we deserve any barbarous acts you or others might perpetrate on us.
#85
least you could do would be to not reproduce. Save youself for some Shahid, ok, hon?
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 15:27 Comments ||
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#86
It is the least I can do. To let you know the truth. You may not accept it, but hey, you can do whatever you like.
Isn't it PLAIN that we know the truth and it's the opposite of what you say.
Arabs and Muslims are really huge LIARS. Ever notice that? Just as long as you know.
Just as long as YOU KNOW: if you fuck with the United States of America and kill her people and do it in the name of Islam, we will hunt you down and find you and we're going to come after you with both guns blazing, so you'd better get those 72 virgin boys ready because you're going to meet Allan.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 15:27 Comments ||
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#88
No, rkb.
According to Quran and the sunnah and ALL good muslim preachers:
Now that I have told you, there is nothing else I should do, for Islam believes in the freedom of choice.
#89
OT, slightly, Gentle, strange name for a supporter of terror.
If you take into consideration the Arab world's congenital and indisputably collective ownership of a certain Egyptian river, a terror supporter adopting the monicker "Gentle" is no great leap for the imagination.
In the finest of Arab traditions, swallowing camels whole and straining on gnats.
#90
Man, these religious threads are piling bandwidth up like Jack the Pig! It is all very amusing, sidling up to the Troll Troughâ¢, but the main issue is this:
Two Paleos were blown up in their car because they have never learned to carry explosives and detonators separately to the jobsite. Read your DuPont powderhandler's manual and remember your training. Oh, yes, it's OJT in Gaza and the West Bank. Inshallah, suckers.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/23/2004 15:32 Comments ||
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#91
Where's .com been? He should of gotten a piece of this.
#92
He's probably doing what all of us should be doing: sitting outside drinking a beer, watching the barbeque do its delectible magic.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/23/2004 15:35 Comments ||
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#93
I told you Jen.
I don't agree with what happened on 11/9
It was a huge crime and those who did it should be taken to court.
They killed innocent poeple.
They have no right to live, but that is not my decision to make.
God help us Jen.
we have the same beliefs yet we have been so torn apart that I'm starting to wonder if anything can repair the damage first lies can have on you.
Next time when you want to learn something, don't get the information from someone who will milead you. Someone who will benefit from misguiding you, someone who has nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Someone who has the power.
The power to do anything, even change the truth.
#96
Gentle #83, I *have* looked at things from other perspectives. I live and work among people of many religions and many countries of origin.
I really do understand the impact of global culture on traditional societies. I sympathize with the struggle and stress that presents.
I also know about the brief time when Muslims were guardians of classical culture, embellishing the work of the Greeks and Romans and passing them on to a renewed Europe.
But those days are long past. Islam chose many years ago to shut itself off. That worked when there were no airplanes or televisions or Internet. It will not work today.
Muslim societies *must* find a way to join the modern world. Because the alternative - open war between Muslims and the modern world - will not be kind to Muslims. There are those among you who wish to provoke just such an all-out war, either out of despairing pride or in the sincere belief that Allah will intervene to save His people.
I agree that this is not a game. It is deadly serious - more serious than you may understand. Most of us writing here are hoping against hope that we do NOT need to use the force we are capable of.
But understand this: if necessary, we *will* do whatever it takes. We will *not* become dhimmi.
And although there are those who would submit (without really believing) because they have lost all sense of self-worth, or pride in their civilization, there are many others who are ready to oppose violence and hatred with whatever level of force is required to protect ourselves, our families and our freedoms - including our freedom of religion.
I sincerely hope you realize we *do* know what Islam teaches -- *all* of its teachings, including those you would understandably like not to emphasize.
#97
Qurâan 3:140 âIf you have received a blow and have been wounded, be sure a similar wound has hurt others. Such days We give to men and men by turns: that Allah may know those who believe, and that He may take to Himself from your ranks Martyrs.â
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also." (Matthew 5:39,40)
#98
Islam believes in the freedom of choice.
Pure and utter dogshit.
No religion that forces people to convert at the point of a gun, sword or bomb could possibly believe in any "freedom of choice."
In fact, most Islamic clerics preach that democracy is a heresy.
Actually, there is no need for freedom of choice in the bizarre world of Islam where everything is as "Allan wills it."
And now that we've told you to reform Islam and those theocratic sandtrappies you call countries or continue the "jihad" at your own peril, you've been told, as well.
I now believe in the Bush Doctrine almost as firmly as I do my Christian Faith.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 15:37 Comments ||
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#99
Gentle, we can trade quotations if you like, although I'm away from my texts.
But "freedom of religion" is truly *not* at the center of most Islamic traditions. At best, those who do not submit to Islam are granted a second-class status, with various impediments imposed on them.
More to the point: there are many imams who are openly preaching the things I mention. Few if any in the Muslim world have spoken up to say that they are wrong. Even fewer are acting to prevent the hatred and violent actions those imams encourage.
The question is not what you believe Islam to be, although that is of some interest. The real question is what Islamic teachers and leaders are doing, and what Muslim populations support or oppose.
I cannot tell you how sad I was when Muslims I've known for years were smug and quietly happy about 9/11, justify the teaching of hatred in madrassas here and overseas, and began to speak openly about the restoration of Islam and one day, a world-wide Caliphate over all.
I was deeply, deeply sad. And then, I grew angry. And remain so today.
#100
Open your eyes. This isn't some sort of game.
Gentle, in this particular instance you are quite correct. This most definitely "isn't some sort of game." All Islam had better understand that its continued existence, both spiritual and corporeal entirely hinges upon the rapid and genuine reformation of its militant adherents.
The clock is ticking down to midnight on your religion. Only a few more 9-11 style atrocities will be required for people to begin openly advocating simple nuclear obliteration of all Islamic countries. Only so many horrors can be absorbed by tolerant cultures until all such latitude suddenly evaporates in the fulminations of righteous anger.
The convulsion of that rage will sweep away Islam like dust before a whirlwind. I cannot urge you strongly enough to reconsider your ill-thought-out support for terrorism. It is precisely such deficient thinking that has stagnated Arab culture for centuries and will quite possibly cause its utter extinction in the very near future.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
Then why the death penalty if a muslim chooses to reject islam?
BTW I don't know if gentle is legitimately UAE and not a puppet, but IP tracing is not a definitive answer. I'm currently operating through a UAE proxy just for the hell of it...
#102
Seriously, guys, is there a problem here? Most religions accept reality about the after-life, and take the preacher's word with a pinch of salt, but not these guys. Is it a genetic defect and are frontal lobotomies in order? 762 recommended to cure everything.
#103
This is the longest string I've ever started, and on a Sunday yet. Thank you Gentle. I could easily imitate your comments in the future (Islamonline can give me everything I need to fake it) however, the people around here would see my IP and out me.
#104
Quite well said, Zenster.
Your time here at RB has been well spent! ;-)
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 15:48 Comments ||
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#105
I am sorry this happend to you rbk.
It is NOT how muslims think & it is not how they should think.
I told you my opinion about 11/9 and all the poeple I know share that opinion with me.
God forgive those who think it right to kill the innocent.
I really am sorry rkb, sorry you had to see such poeple.
They do not represent Islam, I promise you.
#106
Gentle, you are either deceitful or a clueless fool. How anyone could look at the origins and history and products of the Islamic world and believe Islam is the path to God is beyond me. If you are indeed a woman, it is even more perplexing. The Middle East is a sand pit and Islam is a prescription for primitive survival in a sand pit through ruthless conquest and banditry. It is a ticket to Hell.
Posted by: Tom ||
05/23/2004 15:51 Comments ||
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#107
"Only a few more 9-11 style atrocities will be required for people to begin openly advocating simple nuclear obliteration of all Islamic countries."
It won't take a few; just one will suffice-- especially if John Kerry gets elected this fall. GWB would stay with the "reformation" course, come hell or high water; but if Kerry is elected, he will know it must be because America does not have the patience to follow Bush's idealistic, but exasperating and costly, course of action.
And if there is another terrorist attack with massive casualties on U.S. soil, he will take the only option left: total war.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/23/2004 15:52 Comments ||
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#108
"I really am sorry rkb, sorry you had to see such poeple. They do not represent Islam, I promise you."
What you need to do, if you really want to make a difference, is to stop telling US they don't represent Islam, and start telling THEM they don't represent Islam.
Because according to them, they DO represent Islam.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/23/2004 15:55 Comments ||
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#109
I also know about the brief time when Muslims were guardians of classical culture, embellishing the work of the Greeks and Romans and passing them on to a renewed Europe.
But those days are long past. Islam chose many years ago to shut itself off. That worked when there were no airplanes or televisions or Internet. It will not work today.
The intense eloquence of that entire post was incredibly well spoken, rkb. I applaud your efforts.
PS: Jen, since you are opting to be polite, please consider that I openly advocated and correctly predicted the use of fuel-air bombs to defeat the Taleban in Afghanistan.
One of the only real eye-openers for me at Rantburg was the "Oil for Food" scandal and its implications regarding America's near-unilateral initiation of the Iraq campaign. For that, I give my thanks to Fred, his crew and those here who have engaged me in honorable debate.
#110
Gentle, just got in but I must say that I take your #28 comment as a compliment.
Posted by: Evert V. in NL ||
05/23/2004 15:57 Comments ||
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#111
Gentle, I believe you speak truly about your own attitudes. But in fact I must say that you do not seem to represent many, many Muslims ... as others here have said.
I wanted to add one thing that may help you understand the feelings of many here. Like Arabic culture, my father's Russian culture believes very deeply in the sacred duty of hospitality.
My country has offered hospitality to many Arabs and many Muslims of various ethnic backgrounds. We generously have made room for those who would live here. We've opened our schools to them, teaching our technology, our science and engineering, our medicine.
When those to whom we've offered such hospitality repay it with treachery, their guilt and our anger go deep. Today, in my country, in Britain and in other countries around the world, imams and jihadis who have taken our gifts of hospitality repay us with deliberate attacks, verbal and violent.
Would your country, your father and his house, accept such acts meekly?
#112
Now that I have told you, there is nothing else I should do, for Islam believes in the freedom of choice.
So long as the choice is Islam. Any other choice and you're either treated like dirt or killed.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/23/2004 16:03 Comments ||
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#113
What you need to do, if you really want to make a difference, is to stop telling US they don't represent Islam, and start telling THEM they don't represent Islam.
This is quite easily the finest advice you have gotten all day, Gentle. Should you prove unable to do this, you will share part of the collective blame for Islam's downfall. The continued existence of your faith depends utterly upon the willingness of people like to do so. If you cannot, do not expect very much good news in the future.
#117
At least children and women in Iraq & palestine.
Tell the jihadis to quit hiding behind them.
(Of course, I'm sure there's a fatwa somewhere saying that it's perfectly acceptable to use women and children as shields, since they'd be dying in the process of jihad, and thus would be entitled to their pack of Sun Maid raisins. The Muslim world seems to produce a hell of a lot of fatwas giving permission to commit horrible crimes.)
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/23/2004 16:11 Comments ||
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#118
I would dearly like to prevent the killing of innocent children and women.
I'd also like jihadis to stop using women and children as human shields while they attack others.
I'd like Israeli children and elderly women not to be blown to bits while riding a bus peacefully.
I'd like Palestinian mothers to demand peace rather than teaching their children to hate and to attack.
These aren't made up: there is plenty of evidence about these actions.
I'd like the shame and despair in the Muslim world to end -- but not at the expense of the lives and dignity of others.
And especially not by hating and preaching hate and violence.
I'd like Palestinians to admit that their policy of killing Israelis has hurt them more than it has hurt Israel, despite how grievous that has been. I'd like them to admit that they have chosen the corruption of Fatah rather than building schools, roads, hospitals, industries and a country that can prosper.
I'd like the Muslim world to admit what you all know - that many funerals of Palestinian children and women have turned out to be faked - in one instance, on video, we see the "victim" spill out, get up, laugh, and resume his acting role.
I'd like the Muslim world to admit that many of the women and children killed in Fallujah have been shot by jihadis and insurgents, not by US troops.
Above all, I'd like not to have to clean up these messes around the world. But understand, I and others like me WILL intervene when the Arab and Muslim worlds attack and kill others rather than deal with the problems in their own societies.
#119
RC -
I'll look for a fatwa on this (Islamonline has a lot of them but I don't remember anything quite this specific).
Notwithstanding what Islam has to say, the tactics of the Paleo terrorists, namely, firing at Israelis from Civilian sites, wearing civilian clothing while carrying out military operations, targeting civilians, using civilians to smuggle bombs, using civilian sites to store munitions and many others are clear violations of several conventions (however, the Paleos are not signotories to any of the conventions).
The mutilation of dead bodies by Paleo civilians, which the Paleos have done on several occasions is not covered by any of the conventions -- it does show the inhumanity of the Paleos however (and as I recall I did find a fatwa that allowed it).
Do it before those other people who say they represent Islam, but who you say do not, commit an act so horrible and stupid that we are forced to conclude that our survival can only be secured by destroying your entire culture.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/23/2004 16:24 Comments ||
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#121
Question for you Gentle, whats the official penalty in quran (go ahead and look it up if you'd like, if not just about all of us here can tell you what it is) for any muslim convert to christianity or judaism?
#122
Deal! I'll do that, and you stop the killing of innocent poeple.
Gentle, you will do yourself some sort of credit if you truly pursue such efforts.
One indisputably valid reason for America going into Iraq was to save innocent people from death at the hands of Saddam, who was killing some 40,000 Iraqis annually. While some 10,000 Iraqis have perished (many at the hands of fellow Arab bombers), there are some 30,000 who are alive today because of our presence there.
I hope you are able to accept the reality of this concept. Fewer Iraqis are now dying since Saddam was deposed. If there is one thing that redeems any of America's lamentable blunders in Iraq, this is it.
The Palestinians are another matter entirely and their faults are well addressed by the immediately preceding posts. Palestinian terrorism has negated any valid claim they might make upon the world's sympathies. They must abandon the Fatah to begin regaining any moral credibility whatsoever. If they are unable to, they can look forward to nothing save extinction as a people.
#123
For decades; nay, centuries; the authoritarian left opposed religion, usually characterizing it as a device of the opposition.
Even Stalin embraced religion when he needed to, however, and this process has accelerated with the collapse of the nominally atheistic Soviet Union.
Many leftist power-seekers now recognize that religion can be a complementary form of authority, rather than a rival one. They demonize the convenient strawman of the "religious right" as a smokescreen to deflect attention from their own defacto alliance with various religious belief systems. Radical pacifist groups like the Quakers and Mennonites are among the founding members of the far left, while left-wing sentiment abounds in the so-called "mainstream" denominations.
The latter have found social action, as defined by leftist power-seekers, to be a potent substitute for their nearly extinct spiritual appeal.
Islam, an unevolved medieval belief system transposed into the 21th Century, is a powerful addition to the far left's array of religious allies.
Unlike, say, the Quakers, Muslims are committed to the use of violence, offering a direct route to objectives that are increasingly unlikely to be achieved by traditional "peace movement" methods such as deception, pompous moralizing, and the collaboration of mass media.
Like the adherents of the various "religious left" entities, Islamic populations share the far left's vision of the United States as a Great Satan and the primary enemy of goodness and virtue in the world. Indeed, many of the standard tropes of Islamofascist propaganda are lifted verbatim from the post-Vietnam rhetoric of the western left.
This war is a major breaking point in world history. In broadest terms, it is a showdown between a hellish alliance of authoritarian power-seekers on one side and the principles of the Enlightenment on the other.
It has been building for 200 years and it will not end soon.
It will get worse, much worse, before it gets better.
#126
Through this whole thread, not one "I am sorry for the way my Islamo Nazi brothers are acting in the name of Allah" I have not seen one Islamo say it ever since 911 or before. If there is another 911 in the USA I will be hard press to resist the temptation to start hunting down Islamist in my country the, "USofA". I am sure that I will not be alone in my pursuit. Let me make sure Gentle you understand this. I will have no compassion for your ilk. You will become a "nameless faceless enemy" to me and no longer in my eyes a human being.
#127
Yes, rkb, though I don't find much encouragement from today's thread.
I've seen very little evidence since 9/11 that Arabs actually comprehend that they've got a problem; that it's a truly severe problem; that the problem simply must be solved very, very soon; and that it is ultimately their problem to solve, not ours.
They seem to think that arguing with us, wheedling, whining, name-calling, bargaining and playing the poor, helpless, whimpering "victim" will somehow accomplish something, and so far nothing seems capable of jarring them out of that mode.
On the morning of 9/11, as I watched the second tower collapse, I had a premonition: this will be a war of utter annihilation, and in the next decade over a billion people will die.
God, please don't let that premonition come true: give these people some sense.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/23/2004 18:20 Comments ||
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#128
Dave, I don't think it's an Arab problem. Witness Nigeria, Indonesia, the Philippines, Spain, Peru, India, Thailand, etc. All with the same homegrown situations. The problem IS the religion. True followers of the Quran MUST be jihadis or they're just nominals.
No god likes nominals. Especially the god of this world. Your premonition is biblical. And not just in proportion.
Posted by: scott ||
05/23/2004 18:34 Comments ||
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#129
rkb, as this thread slowly winds to a close, I would like to take another moment and again praise your very level-headed, compassionate and well thought out contributions. Amidst the gratuitous insults (one of which I myself have flung) and bilious ranting you have consistently made cogent and eloquent arguments that go to the heart of this discussion. I applaud and admire your perseverence towards obtaining and transmitting some sort of honorable understanding out of this contentious melee. Thank you.
#130
I stand corrected; yes, the problem is with Islam, not just with Arabs; though it is they who most aggressively export the most virulent extremism.
The transition Islam has to make, and make quickly, is this: that although Islam may mean "submission," that submission must be ONLY to God; it is a matter of individual conscience, and Islam simply must cease meaning "submission to mullah"-- or it will perish.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/23/2004 19:00 Comments ||
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#131
You hit the nail right on the head, Dave. Actually, the religion in point has always been a scam, starting with Mohammed. A motivation for conquest. Maybe that's unfair, because I do believe they actually worship a spiritual being and that being does empower them. I just don't believe it's Jehovah.
Posted by: scott ||
05/23/2004 19:13 Comments ||
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#132
Hey, I kind of like the guy who called their "God" Allan. Allan Alakbar. Sounds Jewish.
Posted by: Infidel Bob ||
05/23/2004 19:49 Comments ||
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#133
Thanks, Zenster.
Perhaps it's because the consequences of all-out war are so very immediate to me.
In a few days, my students from this year will graduate and become commissioned officers. One of our students from last year just came home to be buried with honors.
I am around soldiers every day and not one of them enjoys the idea of war. But all will fight if need be. Whenever I am tempted to rant for the fun of it, I look at the people who work next to me. One commanded tanks in Desert Storm, one was a female MP commander in Bosnia. Last year the officer next door was a Special Ops guy with a Master's degree in computer science and a Pathfinder badge - if the Special Ops guys are out there without a safety net, he's the one that's even further out.
I look at my students and realize many of them will be in similar places in less than a year.
When my husband was active duty USAF, I often spent time around missile launch officers, pilots and those who build our space assets. I can snark with the best of you all and sometimes am tempted .... but then I think of just what those missiles actually could do if launched.
OTOH, I'm 52, I can shoot a gun, and I'll be damned if I'll wear a burqa or pay dhimmi taxes to anyone.
#134
I stand corrected; yes, the problem is with Islam, not just with Arabs; though it is they who most aggressively export the most virulent extremism.
That's because Islam is Arab culture turned into a religion.
Anyone remember who remarked on how the Muslims of Pakistan, as they became more "religious", began to eat like Arabs instead of the traditional foods of their ancestors?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/23/2004 20:12 Comments ||
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#135
Gentle, I'm only twenty, not much older than you. I'm getting ready for my third year in college, and I have a wonderful girlfriend who I hope to marry some day (and judging from that wonderful advice the other day, half the people on Rantburg expect that, too; thanks, guys!). I've done a lot of reading on Islam. I am not a Muslim. But because of what I've read, I don't want to be.
I realize that it's very painful for you to accept this, but many in your religion do spew hate. I've made fun of them in the past, but this time I'm being deadly serious: they hate. They kill. They want to destroy everything the West holds dear - and believe it or not, there are things we hold dear. I want to marry my woman and not have to worry about whether she'll be gang-raped because I'm not with her when she goes out. I don't want any children we might have to have to be told that creativity and imagination are evil in the face of Allah. I don't want my children to be taught that blowing oneself up is pleasing to Allah. I don't want that.
But that's what sects of your religion are. Please, I beg you, read the sermons. Look at what they're trying to say. Don't try to excuse it, don't try to explain it away, just read it with no preconceptions one way or the other. See for yourself what it says in the Qu'ran about the unbelievers. Look at the human rights records and the governments of Islamic republics. I have been harsh towards Islam, mocking it at times, yes. But towards a lot of other things as well. Because in the West, we can do that. We can express our opinion on anything. Nothing is above criticism. And just because I make fun of it doesn't mean I don't think it can't be positive.
I welcome Muslims who want to learn how to live within Western society, who want to set alarms on their watches to know when to pray, and who step away to do so. Who want to practice their religion alongside mine, who wish to live in peace with Christians and Jews. Who wish to work hard and contribute to society. I don't welcome those who wish to change it into a repressive hell, who hate everyone that doesn't think like them, who preach destruction and death. They want to destroy us; is it only natural that our response is to go after them in the same way? They are not trying to bring the Word of God, and they aren't preaching the truth. Islam must reform itself, or it will destroy itself. Please read your history, Gentle. Read about the murders of three of the most honored caliphs, about the myriad of conspiracies, about the wars - just as I read about the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition. No religion is bloodless. No religion is blameless. And no religion is exempt from inspection.
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/23/2004 20:18 Comments ||
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#136
That was a bolt from the blue, RC. Arabs are Ishmaelites aren't they? I thought their day was done. Is the "great nation" promised to Abraham still to come?!?
Posted by: scott ||
05/23/2004 20:32 Comments ||
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#137
Scott,
I looked in that Ishmael thing once. It seems that that when you convert to Islam, you take a tribal affiliation - namely, one of the 12 sons of Ishmael (there may be parts of the Islamic world that do this differently) . So the ancestry is 'spiritual' rather than genetic (even assuming you believed that ishmael was a real person).
#138
Zenster, you acquitted yourself well here today.
Maybe I'll let you stay! (Just kidding.)
And to all my other VRWC members and RBers, you also have made me feel that my country's in good hands (and minds) and maybe now I can get some real sleep.
God bless you all!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 23:34 Comments ||
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#141
You Zionists can say what you like but the truth is God gave Israel to Abraham and his descendants which are the Palestinians who have lived there for centuries not some poor Polish people lured on the false and evil promise of Zionism
#142
Jen the Palestinians have always existed. There name may have been different but that doesnt mean they did not exist. For example you are American your country is America. If perchance your country changes it name to something else you would be called a person from that, you would still exist. Like Bushwacked(new name) and Bushwackian(you)for instance.
#144
Bible says Isaac BUT maybe it was Ishmael maybe not. Maybe the person who wrote the account got the two boys mixed up. Maybe it was Isaac though. I am prepared to be open minded on the issue. Jen have not been to RC church in years and yes I have read the bible.
Twenty-six soldiers have been killed and about half a dozen wounded when a bus hit a landmine on a key Kashmir highway, security officials say. The leading Pakistan-based rebel group, Hizbul Mujahideen, claimed responsibility for the attack on Sunday, which came a day after Manmohan Singh took over as prime minister of Indiaâs new Congress-led coalition government. Neeraj Sharma, a Border Security Force (BSF) spokesman, told Reuters the bus with BSF personnel caught fire after the explosion near Lowermunda area, 100 km south of Srinagar, Kashmirâs summer capital. The bus was part of a BSF convoy going from Srinagar to Jammu, the stateâs winter capital.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
05/23/2004 4:38:30 AM ||
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Update: There were about 40 people in the bus, including soldiers and their families. Twenty-eight people -- 14 soldiers, 12 women and two children -- died, while the rest were critically wounded. A police officer said two civilian were also wounded when their vehicle caught fire from the explosion.
The head of a gang of robbers recently arrested said on Saturday that his victims were only infidels and he gave all his stolen goods to jihadi organisations. The thief, alias Yasir Arafat, who was arrested by Model Town police on Friday, claimed his actions were not an offence under Islam. âI started to rob people because there was a lack of funds for the jihadi organisations. I never spent any money on myself, I gave everything to my fellow jihadis. And we only robbed people who did not follow their religion,â he said. Mr Arafat said he had fought jihad in Kashmir and Afghanistan and been jailed several times for his religious beliefs, even by the Taliban. âI was detained in Afghanistan because I didnât agree with their policies. They did not follow Islam, they just oppressed people,â he said.
"Only I follow Islam. The rest of them bastards fakes it!"
When he came back to Pakistan, he decided to form his own jihadi organisation. âAll Jihad organisations in Pakistan work under the intelligence agencies so I made my own,â he said. Mr Arafat said jihad was needed in Pakistan more than in Kashmir or Afghanistan. Many innocent people were arrested and put in prison even though there was no proof against them, he said.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
05/23/2004 1:44:58 AM ||
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They did not follow Islam, they just oppressed people,â he said.
I'd love to hear his way of following Islam that doesnt oppress people. lol
#3
Islam: a black hole into which all morality disappears without a trace.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/23/2004 9:04 Comments ||
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#4
And just think, there is a whole region of miswired nutcases like that running amuck as we speak. Below is his story, sung to the tune of "The Ballad of Jesse James:"
Yasir Arafat was his name
a handle kind of lame
"Walk the True Path" he did implore
He robbed all the sinners
But was jugged by the winners
And now he doesn't jihad any more
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/23/2004 14:20 Comments ||
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American military officials said Saturday that they had recovered a number of guns and other military-related items from the site of an attack carried out in western Iraq earlier this week that left at least 40 people dead. The officials said the items demonstrated that they had probably struck a gathering of insurgents, not civilians at a wedding party, as some local Iraqis and news organizations had said. In a briefing for reporters, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the items found included rifles and batteries rigged in a way that suggested they were intended to be used to detonate bombs. A building on the site of the attack, he said, appeared to have been used as a dormitory, with 300 sets of bedding and as many as 100 sets of prepackaged Iraqi clothing. In addition, General Kimmitt said, American soldiers found machines used to manufacture identification cards and Iraqi exit visas. Soldiers also recovered what the general described as "terrorist training manuals."
Local people had said that the American strike, carried out by land and air Wednesday morning, had struck a wedding party and killed 43 civilians. Videotape showing what was said to be the bodies of people killed at the site showed women and children being buried. Witnesses said the dead included 14 children and 12 women. Despite the evidence, General Kimmitt acknowledged there will still "inconsistencies" between military reports and those coming from people in the area. "That is why we are continuing to explore all possibilities for what happened on the ground," he said.
General Kimmitt said the evidence suggested that the place had been used as a transit point for fighters who were crossing the nearby Syrian border. "We suspect that when foreign fighters come in from other countries, they come to this location and they change their clothes into typical Iraqi clothing," he said. Reporters visiting the village, Makr Al-Deeb, found evidence of both insurgent activity and of a celebration. A well-known Iraqi singer who often entertains in the region, Nazar al-Khalid, was killed at the scene. Yet a leader in the village was identified by local residents as a "mujahid," a term used to describe anti-American fighters.
General Kimmitt said six women had been killed in the attack, but no children. He said the American soldiers had found nothing to suggest that a wedding had been in progress: there were no decorations, no leftover portions of food, no wedding tent or musical instruments, he said. None of the bodies found by the American soldiers carried any identification cards, General Kimmitt said, and all of the men killed at the scene appeared to be of military age. General Kimmitt said they had recovered several international telephone numbers, to places like Afghanistan and Sudan. The fact that none of the bodies found at the scene were of elderly people, General Kimmitt said, was another indication that whatever gathering took place probably involved military personnel.
Also Saturday, American military officials said talks between them and leaders in the Sadr City section of Baghdad had broken down. The Americans have been pressing local leaders inside the predominantly Shiite area to persuade insurgents operating there to call off their attacks on American patrols. Earlier this week, the Americans agreed to reduce their presence inside Sadr City if the insurgents would halt their attacks. Military officials said Saturday the insurgents had not complied, and that the talks had ceased. That seemed to set the stage for possible violence later this week.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/23/2004 12:30:50 AM ||
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Gee... can't wait to hear about this in the media..... do you think they will mention it?
Military officials said Saturday the insurgents had not complied, and that the talks had ceased. That seemed to set the stage for possible violence later this week.
Hmm...whats that term again.... lets thing... oh yea..
Suckers!
Dont they know by now that Sadr and the 'insurgents' feel it is ok to lie to westerners?
#2
Military officials said Saturday the insurgents had not complied, and that the talks had ceased. That seemed to set the stage for possible violence later this week.
Violence?
This is another example of how the media is slowly trying to lull the public into accepting compromises in security by stating what is rally going on is violence, not military action, something only lawyers can handle.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/23/2004 2:12 Comments ||
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#4
Why is it that whatever Americans have to say is the truth and everyone else is lying? Its time for Americans to wake up and realize the damage idiot Bush and his cronies are causing to the Americans themselves.
It is ok for the American forces to kill innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan but it is a crime for the people of Iraq & Afghanistan to defend themselves and kill Americans in return??
This war was waged based on lies and nothing but lies. There is still no evidence of WMD that was the basis of going to war but Bush and his pet Blair still has the audacity to stand in front of the world and justify their crimes in Iraq & Afghanistan.
It is time for UK & American people to realize the folly of their Government and stop them from making this world an even more dangerous place for all.
What is happening in Iraq & Afghanistan is not military action, it is nothing but big bully trying to extend his territory and pillaging resources of other countries. This "war" has nothing to do with stemming terrorism, as this "war" is being waged by the biggest terrorist nations that the world has seen for a very long time, namely USA & UK.
#5
looks like we got one of these 'anti-war' types in today,should be amusing. I suppose all those Iraqis killed were women and children simply going about thier buisness,there are no foriegn fighters from Syria or Iran, there was no AQ link to Saddam,he never had WMD,and of course the casual brushing aside of the fact that Mr Hussain had tried to invade two of his neighbours,had attacked eight other countrys oh and ultimatly led to the death of a grand total of somewhere between 900,000 and 1.5 million not to mention.Oh yeah and musn't mention the human rights record of almost all Arab states when talking about outraged Arabs and the Abu-Grubib scandel,and just for a laugh we'll throw in the 'its all for oil' argument whilst ignoring both the fact that Arab countrys need us to buy thier oil or they'd have zero and the fact that the much vaunted U.N food for oil for money program has been exposed as a scandal of gigantic proportions,of course your type choses to ignore the truth and turn ourselves into the 'evil' ones. a tip for you, go educate yourself on the world.
Posted by: Shep UK ||
05/23/2004 7:12 Comments ||
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#6
Saiefee - just a small comment please:
More and more Americans are beginning to simply believe the following concerning radical Islamists and those who support or encourage them - Kill em...kill em all!
Islam is a religion that worships Satan. Bush will not or believes he can not say it but this death cult worships a demon named Allah...not the God of the Bible. God descibes Jesus as His Son, the Creator of the universe. Allah describes him as just a good "man". I'll go with the Bible.
As far as your statement "This war was waged based on lies and nothing but lies", I can only ask "wasn't there two really tall towers in New York that a group of Islamofreaks brought down in the name of that great religion of peace?" The so-called war Iraq is nothing more than another battle in the War on Terror (Islam).
Go to hell Saifee. But I repeat myself...
***Fellow Ranters, a good discussion by Craig Winn (expert on the true meaning of the Religion of Peace) is available via streaming audio at israelnationalradio.com on hour 1 of the May 19th Tovia Singer show. Craig is the author of many books on Islam, and has a new book titled Prophet of Doom available for FREE now at prophetofdoom.net, is introduced at approximately the 5 minute mark of the this audo feed. Please check it out for a clear and easy to understand explanation of the cult of Islam.
WE ARE THE BORG.
LOWER YOUR SHIELDS AND SURRENDER YOUR SHIPS.
WE WILL ADD YOUR BIOLOGICAL AND TECHNOLOGICAL DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN.
YOUR CULTURE WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US.
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.
#8
Following from Rafael's comment - OTOH we might to decide to kill you all since there is nothing in Muslim culture of any value.
Posted by: Phil B ||
05/23/2004 7:38 Comments ||
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#9
Saif,I'm sitting here listening to the news tell me about a battle at a Mosque.
What was found stored in this"Holy Place"mortors,rpg's,2,000 rounds of ak-47 ammo.
Religion of Peace my aching ass.
#11
AntiBrains, you are so deluded.
The rest of us are "on about" reality.
My God isn't Allan; it's Jehovah.
And there's plenty to say that Saddam had his hand in 9/11 and had major links with Al Queda, missy!
(It's not our fault that the Leftist Media that you pore over won't mention all the various links between Saddam and 9/11 or the fact that Islam isn't the Religion of Peace but the Religion of (Leaving People in) Pieces.)
Catch the Clue Train before it totally passes you by and take off that hijab!
I can't believe that as a woman, you would voluntarily enslave yourself by following the dictates of Islam!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 10:15 Comments ||
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#12
Great.
Now maybe you poeple will believe what I've been trying to tell you.
Oh, and Jen: Anti war has told you many times that she is NOT a muslim.
There are things that even you should be ashamed to say.
Now go ahead with any questions you may have )all of you), 'coz I'm ready to answer.
#14
Yeah, Great is right...All we need is for you 2 brain-dead ditzes to show up here together again.
(Or are you the same person? Hmmm?)
If Anti isn't a Muslim, she's the best little kuffir apologist Islam ever had.
And I'm not a bit ashamed to say what I said above; in fact, I'm quite proud to be a Christian, an American and a Bush supporter!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 10:32 Comments ||
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#16
I don't think so, AntiBrains.
The God I worship isn't Allan, the Islamic "god."
There is nothing I've read in the Koran about their god that makes him sound like my God, Jehovah.
Jesus said that there would be "false prophets" that came after him and I believe Mohammed to have been such a one.
Saddam was involved in 9/11--I knew it that day, but facts that have emerged since have only confirmed it.
There are numerous news stories here that document it.
And clearly the scrunchies and headbands are necessary to prevent what little brain you have from leaking out.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 10:38 Comments ||
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#17
Kuffir= To believe that there is NO God.
YOU and Antiwar are christians. That means that you are "poeple of the book". You are "mushrik".
Islam believes in christianity. We believe in Jesus.
You may think this doesn't matter, but that is my point.
You guys just don't have all your facts straight.
Didn't see your name pop up the other day when your Religion of Peace friends slaughtered the family that was running that progressive school in Pakistan.
Posted by: Infdel Bob ||
05/23/2004 10:44 Comments ||
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#22
Antiwar and Gentle are one and the same troll - look at the comment posting times. Sinktrap the bitch
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 10:52 Comments ||
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#23
Gentle and your braindead twin Antiwar,
my God isn't "Allah"--Allah is a false god and no, "Allah" isn't an Arabic name for the One God of the Hebrews.
Gentle I don't have time to explain the Judeo-Christian God here except here's how He describes himself, "I am that I am."
He is the God of the Jews and the Christians.
He is loving and merciful and he doesn't ask us to kill non-believers.
And He promises us a lot more in Heaven than "72 virgins."
All we have to do to get there is to believe on His Son, Jesus Christ; we don't have to die committing a jihadi murder.
We are commanded to love our neighbors and ourselves.
The Bible prophesizes a lot, but it didn't prophesy another "messenger" like Mohammed therefore I find no compulsion to take the Koran seriously.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 10:55 Comments ||
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#24
Wow, what an amazing coincidence, 3 retards showing up in the same thread to defend Allan the murderous moon god. What a lucky day! Please continue to hammer the snot out of them Jen, it's wonderful reading.
#25
What 72 virgins?
I don't remember a number being mentioned, but anyway, that is not what awaits a muslim and they are not to kill non muslims. Whoever told you that?
Allah is murciful and forgiving.
Of paradise we have a lot of descriptions, but the one that I will choose is:
" What no eye has seen, and no ear has heard, and no heart has imagined"
#27
Ya know, MentleRetard, you just didn't get the memo from the mullahs and the clerics that Al Queda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Ansar al-Islam, Jemayah Ismalaya,________(insert Jihadi group name here), etc., etc, etc. did.
Your fellow Muslims have been slaughtering people since 1972 (and that's just this Century's round of murders) in the name of your religion because they claim that the Koran and Mohammed told them to do it, as Allah wishes!
But maybe your Koran--you being a weak-minded female who's judgement is clouded by menstruation, doncha know?--had that part cut out.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 11:08 Comments ||
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#28
after all the Jooos warmongers and sinners are annihilated, do you get a pony too? What else has Allan, your false God promised
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 11:08 Comments ||
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#29
If you had a gun i your hand, and standing before you was someone who would kill you + your family.
Would you, or would you not, kill him?
The truth now.
ALL OF YOU. I'm waiting
#30
"Gentle,"what is wrong with you?
(Besides not being very bright.)
How did the Jeopardy category get changed from World Religions for $500 to Self-Defense for $50?
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 11:15 Comments ||
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#32
Ooooooh! Ouch! Oh, no!
Miz AntiPasto done whipped me in languages and spelling...or so she likes to think so!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 11:19 Comments ||
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#33
In answer to your question Gentle. It depends if they were Israelis or Palestinians. If they were Israelis I would throw down the gun confident that they would treat me fairly, humanely, and according to the law. If it were palestinians then I would probably shoot it out, because they would as likely as not murder me, especially if they found out I was a christian.
Does that answer your question?
Posted by: Phil B ||
05/23/2004 11:20 Comments ||
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Qurâan 9:5 âFight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.â
The Religion of Peace and its Rules of Engagement. It gives me such a warm fuzzy.
#36
go back to the 7th century where you belong, oh and a little tip for you, your wonderful 'god' called Allan is nothing more then the ultimate tool of oppresion used to control the Arab populations.Basically your fuckin Moon God dosn't mean shit,zilch,nothing. THE END
Posted by: Shep UK ||
05/23/2004 11:23 Comments ||
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#37
Why don't you 2 peace-nik pixies skip back to Jihad Unspun or DUh.com or wherever it is you came from?
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 11:24 Comments ||
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#38
who can't spell e.g M.e.n.t.a.l. spells mental you know
Can you people PLEASE buy dictionaries. It would help a lot if you understood what words and terms actually meant, e.g. 'e.g' makes no sense in the statement above.
Posted by: Phil B ||
05/23/2004 11:25 Comments ||
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#40
There were no "Palestinians" until Britain created the state in 1921--ask Bin Laden about the "Cairo Conference"--and Palestine CEASED TO EXIST as a state in 1947 when the state of Israel was created.
"Palestinians" are a tribe that belong to Jordan.
Even Arafat is Egyptian.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 11:29 Comments ||
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#41
Guys, you let the peacenuts distract you from the story. Basically, the US struck a jihadi safe house/transit point, and the jihadis used the gullible media to say the US really hit a "wedding".
Apparently Iraqi weddings involve not only gunfire, but also bombs and fake IDs.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/23/2004 11:31 Comments ||
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#42
Phil lots of Palestinians are Christians Lots of Palestinians used to be Christians. Most of them are dead, converted or emigrated. I believe 90% of them are gone. And I'll ignore that raping Christian girls is a popular hobby in paleos areas.
Posted by: Phil B ||
05/23/2004 11:32 Comments ||
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#43
Qurâan 8:12 âI shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.â
We mean you no harm, really. Let's all sing a song, shall we.
#46
Even the feckless CNN is reporting that there's no evidence of any wedding, but it sure looks like a hotbed of IslamoNazi killers!
The Jihadis already tried this trick on us in Afghanistan, remember, everyone?
And Zpaz, I love your quotes from their "holy book!"
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 11:42 Comments ||
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#47
Gentle,
How about we ask Mr. Berg? I bet he knows the answer!
Oh... I forgot... your merciful loving friends sawed off his head with a knife while his hands (and probably legs) were tied - he was defensless and at completelty at their mercy.
I suggest that you watch the video -- *all* of it.
#48
Qurâan 7:3 âLittle do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.â
Joy to the world;
All the boys and girls;
Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea;
Joy to you and me.
#50
Qurâan 8:39 âSo, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.â
Maybe the flowers will stay,
and we'll keep the showers away;
And if I kiss you in the garden
in the moonlight,
will you pardon me
and tip toe through the tulips with me?
#51
Qurâan 8:60 âAnd make ready against the infidels all of the power you can, including steeds of war to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy. And whatever you spend in Allahâs Cause shall be repaid unto you.â
If I were the King of the world,
Tell you what I'd do,
I'd throw away the cars and the bars and the wars
And make sweet love to you.
Yea, Gentle, I'd make sweet love to you.
#52
Phil lots of Palestinians are Christians and before Jesus was born lots followed Judaism.
That's rite! We must remember that this war is mainly about the pali peoples and their quest for nationhood. Pali people have been oppressed and shoeless now since emm... uh.. 1948 since zionist entity took over their shoe factories and destroy they olive oil factory. Now pali people have to live on happy hand outs from UN and UAE. It's not right that a historically senstive people like the palis are left out of cutting the pie. Give the pali people a state! They deserve it! Most pali people are senstive and caring and very good with nitrates they should have a place in hall of nations! Palestine was a country for over 3000 years with its capital in jaffa yet no western atlas show it! Shame! Palestine was crucial in your own US civil war by givnig good thoughts and 12 hookas to the army of the potomac! Battle whine of the republic was written by a pali man! Yes! It's true! Roll over beetoven written by a proud pali man! Elvis was a known muslim! I must be gooing!
#53
Antiwar, Gentle, and other authoritarian terror-apologists here. I see that you have a habit of characterizing opponents as Bush supporters, and equating all our efforts against Islamofascism with the Republican Party.
Do you really suppose that the election of John Kerry will achieve your goals? Does he seem like someone who is sympathetic to Sharia law? Do you really imagine that he will meet the demands of the terrorists and the peace movement, such as withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan, the unconditional release of Saddam Hussein, the destruction of Israel? Will he raise the minumum wage to 12.50/hr? Turn all government over to local matriarchal committees with ex-convicts and adventure-sport enthusiasts as enforcers? Jail the owners of Free Republic and Rantburg for hate speech? Turn Bush and Rumsfeld over to the International Kangaroo Court?
Is this war purely a partisan issue? You are deluding yourselves if you think it is.
We are headed for civil war in this country. It is not Democrat vs. Republican, or liberal vs. conservative, but pop-left media slave vs. Constitutionalist.
The 60s inspired left is a creation of the corrupt institutional media. The Islamofascists and their simple-minded apologists are ideal media consumer units.
The pop-left is a disease and it is about to be cured, one way or another.
#55
zpaz is choosing endings of verses. He does not write that the verse first states that Muslims should NOT fight non-Muslims unless they were the ones who start it. It then goes on to say the rest.
Also it clearly states that man should NOT kill those who are not fighting.
Also, zpaz, if you dare to say that you will "make sweet love to me", I don't know why I bother trying to have a civilized conversation with you.
Talk about women rights. You people still live in the middle ages, or shall I say DARK ages.
Also don't forget that many of you believe that you used to be monkeys.
Suit yourself!
One last thing:
There are things about religions that just should not be approached.
Or would you rather I asked you HOW you believe that a merciful God could let his son be murdered!
At least we believe that God raised Jesus to heaven.
#56
Yeah, we believe that God raised Jesus to Heaven, too.
What you don't believe is that Jesus was both God's only begotten Son and that he is God also.
And then there's the Holy Spirit, too, who is also God.
Belief in the Holy Trinity is integral to Christian Faith.
But wait! That would be polytheism to you, right?
God "let" his son be murdered because that is why he came to earth, to offer himself--the one who is without sin--to die for the sins of the whole world and conquer Death for all.
Jesus was the sacrificial Lamb of God who offered himself as an offering for all time and all peoples.
These are all "mysteries" of the Faith that must be revealed to your heart and soul, something you literal, violent Muslims don't seem to know a lot about.
We'll pray that you Muslims are converted to Christianity and away from that death cult of the moon good!
Check out the movie "The Passion" if they allow it in Bahrain and try to get your hands on a Bible and read it.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 13:36 Comments ||
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#57
Have you ever read the stories of the prophets?
Stories mentioned in the Quran?
About Ibrahim?
and his 2 sons?
About Jacob?
About Jesus?
About Josef?
About Moses?
About all the other prophets (Peace be upon them)?
Have you realized what they teach?
In the way that I (YES I) speak and write, what do you see?
Do you see a violent person?
Or someone who is trying to understand why YOU use such inproper words?
Do you see someone who makes threats?
Or some one who tries to reason?
Do you see someone who would stand aside while a humanbeing is raped and look the other way,
Or someone who would condemn the rapist, even if he was a muslim raping an Israeli murdress?
THAT should tell you about Islam, not what you hear and see and read, not what you were MEANT to read.
#58
Gentle, your people have been the enemies of my blood since your murderous prophet first emerged from the wilderness determined to take by fire and sword what his people could not produce themselves. The Middle East was the heart of Christianity before the murderous muslims overran it. If it was God's will for you bastards to conquer then, why should it be any less his will that you have been reduced to blowing yourselves up to kill Jews and Christians, to your brave warriors slitting the throats of helpless prisoners and shooting women and children, even babies in car seats.
The hallmark of American society is that we are willing to live and let live, but if we are roused to battle you will die. You talk about Crusaders and conveniently forget that the purpose of the Crusades was to recover Christian lands that had been overrun by your people. There is an ebb and flow to history. Your people have been in decline since they were stopped at the gates of Vienna in 1653. Keep whining and you won't like what will happen. To paraphrase the Marines, you can have no better friend than America and no worse enemy. Choose quick lest the choice be made for you.
Posted by: Random thoughts ||
05/23/2004 13:47 Comments ||
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#59
Antiwar, Gentle:
WE ARE THE BORG.
LOWER YOUR SHIELDS AND SURRENDER YOUR SHIPS.
WE WILL ADD YOUR BIOLOGICAL AND TECHNOLOGICAL DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN.
YOUR CULTURE WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US.
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.
WE ARE THE BORG.
Posted by: Locutus of Borg ||
05/23/2004 13:47 Comments ||
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#61
Antiwar: If you don't believe in the Trinity, then you're not a Christian, you're a heretic.
Gentle: Are you allowed to vote in your country?
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/23/2004 13:52 Comments ||
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#62
Antiwar:
I know.
& I'm sorry, I never wanted the talk to turn to religion.
I respect christianity.
I respect all religions, but christianity; I believe in.
they just keep dragging the subject up.
Sorry!
#63
AntiBuse, you have your own little theology which I'm sure you're bishop and your priest don't appreciate (if you're really a Catholic as you say you are).
Don't confuse poor, addled "Gentle" when she can't seem to "get" how inherently violent and murderous her own religion of pieces is, even when her own "holy book" is quoted to her.
(And by the way, the word "holy" used to apply to Islamic things is completely senseless.)
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 13:53 Comments ||
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#64
No Rafael.
But we re happy, thank you very much.
We are a wealthy, peaceful, wonderful country.
You should come visit, really.
#66
Gentle sez:
"You people still live in the middle ages, or shall I say DARK ages."
then she pulls out this, a slap at scientific evolution straight out of the Dark Ages itself:
"Also don't forget that many of you believe that you used to be monkeys."
In your dark age ignorance, Gentle, you have no idea how foolish it is to invoke clairvoyant authority by trying to tell us what we believe, but answer this anyway:
How old is the Earth, in your modern, enlightened view?
#68
Me thinks jihaddies are building a new site for foreign fighters to inviltrate Iraq. Prolly using party decorations, they'll need more children on site as well as the whores. Instruments too. And a cake, prolly want to bake a new one every day and let the foreign fighters share the day old one.
The kids could spend the day chanting the koran, but they need to stay close to the foreign fighters incase an airstrike comes. The women should be dressed in traditional bedouin wedding robes, richly decorated, but still keep the laundry and toilet ship shape.
Gentle, could you tell me about apostacy laws regarding islam. From what I've read, correct me if I'm wrong, that there is a little problem, with some muslims, about denoucing the holyness or fakeness of it once you've been infected by it.
#71
Gentle, you may be one of the Muslims who respect the people of the Book, and revere the teachings of Christ -- knowing he was blessed of God. Nonetheless, you have to know that a large number of your fellow Muslims are murderous, and do what they like IN THE NAME OF YOUR RELIGION, AND USING YOUR HOLY BOOK FOR JUSTIFICATION OF THEIR EVIL ACTS AND TERROR. That is what people here are so upset about -- your culture will find no better friend, no worse enemy than the Christian West.
Antiwar, you are simply a hateful Gnostic -- a form of heresy repeatedly denounced by the Christian Church from the first century to the present. And, by the way, have you renounced your cursing and wishing ill on others who oppose your ideology? Ill-wishing seems so inconsistent with the other drivel you spout, but since you're just a Gnostic . . .
#73
Qurâan 47:4 âWhen you clash with unbelieving Infidels in battle, strike and overpower them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, make them prisoners in bondage until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded. He lets you fight in order to test you. Those who are slain in Allahâs Cause will never have their deeds go to waste.â
Come 'n listen to my story 'bout a man named Saud.
A poor Deserteer barely kept his family fed
An' then one day, he was shootin' at some food,
An' up thru the ground came a bubblin' crude.
Oil that is! Black gold! Mecca tea!
#76
Hey, Zpaz, quote the one about "There's a Jew behind me. Come and kill him!"
I love that one and so will AntiMatter who says she doesn't hate all Jews, only Zionists!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 14:52 Comments ||
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#77
Qurâan 21:44 âDo they see Us advancing, gradually reducing the land (in their control), curtailing its borders on all sides? It is they who will be overcome.â
Well, the first thing ya know, Saud's a millionaire,
Kin-folk said, "Saud, move away from there." Said
Tel Aviv is the place y'oughta be, so they
loaded up the tanks, and invaded Galilee.
Hills that is! Synagogues, Movie stars!
I'd rather smooch Gentle, whaddya say, are you a goer?
#78
"I've just posted an article that should answer all the questions you've asked."
Oh, no!
She's such a moron that she thinks when you ask her questions, you really want answers!
Now we'll get some more Saudi-funded happy horseshit about how they're the Religion of Peace again!
NO!!! Make it stop! We'll have to kill you now!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 14:56 Comments ||
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#79
Infidel Bob, Locutus, Zpaz, Jen, Phil B.,Crazy Fool, Atomic Conspiracy, Shep UK and the rest: Terrific! Lots of fun!
You know when CNN leaves off the pro-left slant, there's no chance whatsoever it was a wedding! The Islamics are losing ground.
On the spirtual topic: cingold is correct. Antiwar holds to (condemned) gnostic beliefs.
I must say, I 'm amazed by this discussion. Antiwar--the very one who curses me and others, wishing death upon us, the one who defends Islamic jihad and all it's practices, the one who masquerades as an Australian liberal, and the one who is a liar, is now going to "teach" us about Christianity and says what is and is not unscriptural. Wow. And yawn.
(Anyone else notice how syntax and sentence structure and personal expressions continue to change with these two operatives--Antiwar and Gentle? It certainly gives one pause regarding just how many Islamics are teaming up to post as "Antiwar" and "Gentle" . . . And I think the little "pat on the back" discussions they have between themselves are so cute.)
Just to clear up Antiwar and Gentle's forays into, what for them, are unknown realms of truth . . . I have included the following, below. Antiwar and Gentle: This isn't a "piece-meal" kind of thing. It's an all or nothing kind of thing. (I wonder if their "respect" would allow the following confession of faith--the basis of true belief which delineates the truth in matters of Christian doctrine. Could they confess this? Uh, no. Not possible. They'd be put out of their mosques and lose all their friends.)
THE CREED
I believe in One God,
the Father Almighty,
Maker of Heaven and Earth,
and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Son of God,
the Only-Begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages;
Light of Light;
True God of True God;
begotten, not made;
of one essence with the Father,
by Whom all things were made;
Who for us men and for our salvation
came down from Heaven,
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered, and was buried.
And the third day He arose again,
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into Heaven,
and sits at the right hand of the Father;
and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead;
Whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life,
Who proceeds from the Father;
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified;
Who spoke by the prophets.
And in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
#81
Zpaz---Ah, the Muses blessed you today! (Whirled Peas be upon them). Thoroughly enjoyed your Saud parody of the Beverly Hillbilles Theme. Made my day. I can see that the Quoran inspired you.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/23/2004 15:19 Comments ||
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#83
The Apostles' Creed, I do love it.--thank you, ex-lib!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 15:29 Comments ||
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#84
Holy smokes Zpaz, how could I have missed that! Hilarious and one for the classics.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/23/2004 15:46 Comments ||
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#85
Antiwar, it's probably not a good tactic to try to quote Scripture when you don't know the Christian traditions very well .....
Just a suggestion.
And yes, I do know the Universalist / Unitarian traditions. And no, they are not within the Christian canon. Some members are very nice people, some are idiots, but neither type changes the fact that there are some basics that define Christianity and the Trinity is one of them.
#87
Muhammed, Mohammed...whatever! I think the important thing to note here, is that the second syllable is "ham".
That is the crux of the whole matter. These people are secretly craving a big old Ham & Swiss on Light Rye sandwich! With just a touch of Mayo and a Kosher Dill Pickle.
That would take the Jihad out of them.
-AR
Posted by: Analog Roam ||
05/23/2004 17:04 Comments ||
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#88
To those out there that think Islam is a religion of peace please explain why the non-Islamic world is refered to in Islamic texts as Dar al-Harb, the House of War.
Islam means submission, not Peace. Don't believe the spin, believe what Islamists say themselves.
#92
Hell folks, I don't want to get into a religious argument because I think that whole "my God is better then yours is beneath us." All I know is 19 assholes hi-jacked 4 birds and put about 3,000 innocent people in the grave. Most of these assholes happened to be Saudi and all were Muslim. Maybe they didn't represent the majority of Muslims but I didn't see too many prominent Saudi's or any other Imams, Mullahs, etc apologizing for them. In 1983, 241 of my brethren were murdered in a bombing at a certain barracks in Beirut, again by Muslims, & I still don't remember any prominent Mohammaden clergy apologizing for that one either. In the Corps silence is consent and tacit approval = approval. I don't really care what the Qu'ran, Bible, Torah, or Levay's Satanic Bible has to say on anything, all I know is 3,000 people of all races, colors, creeds, and religions died for no good reason that day but one religion was well represented in making their demise happen.
The 19 jag-off soddies on 9/11 were funded by an evil bastard named Osama (i.e. another radical islamist) who was harbored in Afghanistan by some other friendly Muslim extremists by the name of the Taliban. Cause = Effect Anti-war. GWB sent his lads to handle business, therefore, no more Taliban running the show in Afghanland.
BTW - GWB never said there was an explicit connection between Saddam & 9/11 - if some Americans are silly enough to believe that so be it, but don't blame GW anti-war. Another point - I also know the blood of about 300 Americans went into establishing the removal of Soddom out of Kuwait in 1991 thus establishing UN resolutions on WMDs and other weapons. Soddom (w/his two bastard sons who had a penchant for raping live muslim virgins) in over 12 years violated these resolutions 17 times. Now, I know we went to war under the pre-text of WMDs, no matter what *I* personnally think about that, Hussein needed to be removed for 17 violations of *UN* resolutions. Though I know the UN would never remove him no matter how much we begged due to the oil for food scam. We did remove him and the world is better off w/out that megalomaniacal piece of shit running amok.
Gentle, you seem (on the surface) to respect all religions - I hope you maintain that path. I have met good and bad people of all faiths. I personally do not care if someone's a muslim, jew, christian, zen-buddhist, pagan, or animist tree-hugger, I've led Marines of every conceivable background & have had very minor problems whatsoever due to a man's faith - simply, if you treat others w/respect you will get it in return. Hence, our country's constitution based on the wisdom of our founding fathers is peerless in most regards especially when it comes to freedom of religion. Gentle, ask yourself seriously, how do Arab governments stack up to the U.S. in religious tolerance and you have your answer. Why (if there are any) do the voices of moderate muslims get drowned out by the extremists? Why do we keep hearing about the Paleo/Israelis conflict? And yet for all their oil money, no other Arab government has attempted to financially strenghten the palestinians other then provide them w/second rate weapons and first rate hatred? Why do arabs piss and moan about abu ghraib and yet there is little condemnation of 4 contractors who were taking food into fallujah murdered and torched? How abut Daniel Pearl? Where's the outrage for a peaceful journalist and a father of an infant being beheaded by extremists? How about hapless Nick Berg? GWB apologizes to the king of jordan whose not even an iraqi for abu ghraib and yet I have not heard one strong condemnation of these atrocities toward my fellow Americans from any prominent muslim? Thus I am left w/a couple theories - 1) your clergy tacitly approve of such actions. 2) your clergy actually believes it to be sanctioned by the koran, or 3) your clergy are too f*cking cowardly to say anything for fear of repurcussions.
Sorry about the long post Fred, I'm making a bandwidth donation this week. Paypal or credit card okay?
#94
Jen first thing Jehovah is God's name. Allah is the Arabic word for God. God's name = Jehovah. Allah=Arabic for God.Got that? Saddam had NOTHING to do with 9/11 stop listening to the crap that comes from GWB etc. P.S I only wear hair bands ribbons scrunchies and assorted types of clips in my hair. Never wore a hijab.
#96
Jen let me simplify this for you as you seem to have misplaced your brain(maybe as its so tiny it fell out) Right God;(God is English for God)Dieu is French for God and Allah is Arabic for God. Now a French person calls Him Dieu and An Arabic speaking person calls him Allah and an English speaking person calls Him God. But He is the same God,He doesn't change because the word for him changes. Jehovah is God's name,God is what he is;like Jen is your name and a fool is what you are
#97
Yes God is merciful that is why he disapproves of the Godless wars started by GWB who has no right to call himself a follower of Christ. He is an Agent of Satan and God will return the earth to its original Paradise as it was in Eden before the Fall of Adam and Eve and all warmongers and sinners will be annihilated as will Satan. Gods government will rule the earth no one will die or grow old.
#98
Frank who the fuck is Allan? Yes all sinners will be annihilated. Jen YOU are the Retard (who can't spell e.g M.e.n.t.a.l. spells mental you know.)
#99
Gentle have never held a firearm as against my personal belief to kill anyone if was killed I know God would restore me and my family to his Paradise earth where we would enjoy Eternal life and happiness ruled by God's government. Vengeance is Mine said the Lord.
#101
Right so Iraqis having a wedding are insurgents??? Does that include the little six year old boy who was decapitated?? Cant Iraqis celebrate a wedding without being slaughtered. That weddding dress was a good disguise(sarcasm)
#102
Not all Christians believe in the trinity. After all it doesnt make sense if Jesus is God who did He pray to - himself? Jesus is God's son he is not God (but a seperate entity)Jesus's perfect human life was given as a ransom to obtain mankind's release from sin and death. This is because Adam rebelled against God and therefore as a sinner he could not receive eternal life and this was passed to his descendants(everyone) Jesus gave his life to pay back what Adam lost Jesus was resurrected to heaven as a spirit person and the ransom was paid to God and we all have eternal life to look forward to.
#103
Jen I was baptised Catholic (parents choice) but I have not been to church since 1988 and do not believe most Roman Catholic doctrine like the trinity and the immortality of the soul(as a seperate entity that lives after death)to name two. I believe that Jesus is God's son and his death was a Ransom to save humanity from death. A Christian is a follower of Christ. The trinity is a doctrine which is unscriptural.
Sudanese Foreign Minister Mustafa Osman Ismail Saturday dismissed "American threats" to impose sanctions on his country as part of the "elections fever." He told a news conference on the sidelines of the Arab summit in the Tunisian capital, Tunis, that Sudan was keen on resolving "all pending issues with the United States in a realistic and reasonable manner." Ismail, who is heading Sudan's delegation to the summit, said his government agreed to provide facilities to humanitarian organizations to bring in relief aid to parts of the country, including the troubled area of Darfour.
"Yeah! Cross our hearts and hope to... uhhh... die."
He denied reports of genocide against African tribes by Arab tribes in Darfour, saying the fighting in the region was being carried out by "rebels." The minister insisted that most of those killed in the area were members of the Sudanese army and police, adding that 23,000 people were displaced from their homes due to the fighting.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/23/2004 12:29:20 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
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#1
Muslims where are your protests, and outrage regarding this situation, and all you 'peace' protestors, think you could raise a sign to protest a genocide?
Modern day chattel slavery?
How about mass gang rapes?
Oh oops I forgot none of this compares to Iraqi prison abuse.
Maybe we should bomb Sudan, then at least we would get the Muslims and 'peace protestors' concerned. Of course they would be protesting America, but at least they would give a shit then.
#2
Saddam made the same foolish mistake not thinking the U.S. would follow through and overthrow him.
The Sudan needs to be taught it's not wise to threaten Washington.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/23/2004 2:51 Comments ||
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#3
The real bad thing? The tribes in Darfur are Muslim... not even Christian or animist. It's purely ethnic cleansing. The Arabs are chasing the blacks into Chad. So much for the Wahhabi apologists and their "there is no racsim in Islam" line.
#7
troll - antiwar and gentle are one and the same - Sinktrap time
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 10:52 Comments ||
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#8
Gentle, Nope.
(You know full well that kuffir like me aren't allowed there!)
Personally, I'd love to see us blast that heathen black rock and the rest of the place with a nice nuke!
Nothing good has come from there that I can see.
The Rome of the Muslim world it ain't!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 10:58 Comments ||
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#10
Then how do you explain the Sudan,Gentle?
How can we go to Mecca,Gentle.You do know that they have that bigotted,segregesionist policy that only Moslems are allowed there?
Why is it that non-Moslems are forced to live in segregated communities in Saudi Arabia?
No racisiam in Islam my white ass.Try your self-delusional lies somewhere else.
#12
If you've never been to the place, don't go telling things you're not sure of.
It only makes your other wrong opinios even weaker, but why am I complaining, you're proving yourself more of hot-headed-no-sense person by the minute.
#15
Gentle, where did you get your instruction in Islam? I'm not trying to make fun of you; I merely want to know who is teaching peaceful Islam--I already know about places that teach violent versions.
Posted by: James ||
05/23/2004 13:30 Comments ||
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#16
U.A.E.
Any other questions?
Oh, and your question should be that you are wondering who is teaching the REAL version of Islam.
#18
Gentle, it's actually YOU who should be wondering...
And the reason I know about racism in Mecca is from reading about it in Arab News (a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Saudi royal family).
You don't have to *go* to Mecca to find out about it.
Also, the "regular" Muslims here in America wouldn't meet with the black "Nation of Islam" Muslims last summer in Chicago even though their conferences were held at the exact same time.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 13:39 Comments ||
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#19
your question should be that you are wondering who is teaching the REAL version of Islam.
So who is teaching the real version of Islam?
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/23/2004 14:22 Comments ||
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#20
Sure: Who was your teacher and when did you study there?
Posted by: James ||
05/23/2004 14:34 Comments ||
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#21
Well, I feel I'm teaching the real version of islam.
Ya see it's all about this prophet, his slaying of dragons,(dragons were big in those days as each tribe had their own dragon) Once the prophet slay a dragon you proclaim that place (where he slay the beast) a holy place.
Each holy place is not equal, that can sometimes cause a problem but follow along. Allah (or Allan as the case may be) gives blessings based on how much you pray at each dragon lare. That prayer is worth ten points here or five there. It is based on the decimal system, something the dragon slayers gave to the world.
At each holy place a holy man works hard at getting his dragons lare more important than anothers dragon lare. It pays to have a lare that is worth ten vs one that his worth five, you can make more cash, cash is good, no?!
This is not hard. It's important to keep the cash flowing, people need to eat. So the people of the phophet must be held closely to the interprise.
For instance it's important that you are always polite to each other. The guy at the top will be polite to you as long as you know your place and return the politness. This is known in educated circles as patriarchy (El Patron in Andalusia).
One good way to keep the cash flowing and the folk in line are apostacy rules, I'm getting a little long here, and I've been known to be a little wordy, a guy thing methinks, but it's not cool to mess with the apostacy thing.
Tomorrow I'll talk more about those dragons. And also too, I'm waiting on a scholarly report on the apostacy thing. I think you'll find that very interesting.
#22
Keep up the reports, Dan. ABC finally covered Darfur on the nightly news. A man was asked why he was driven from his village. He replied, "Because we are black."
#24
Well, Gentle, since I am not a Muslim you know full well I am not supposed to be allowed to visit Mecca.
That said, I *have* done business with the Saudis. And as a non-Arab woman, it was amusing ... if I thought I were in any danger of coming under their control or rule, it would have been a lot more than that.
If you want to further good relations across religious and ethnic lines, good for you -- but you won't do it by asking questions like that.
And yes -- I have heard Muslim Arabs from rather well-placed families express casual and breathtaking racism. If you haven't, you haven't been listening to the wider press or to Arab TV.
#26
Lucky, we need to get you at my college, have you lecture once or twice.
JerseyMike, love the one-liner.
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/23/2004 21:06 Comments ||
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#27
Check out the photo gallery via the link:
Would normal people engage in the activity focusing on only blood and more blood, including forcing their own children to be deeply involved in these demented cultic rituals?
Recall we continue being informed of the 'peaceful' intentions' of Islam.
By the way, do you have two ten's for a five?
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/23/2004 22:02 Comments ||
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Influential Chechen field commander Sulim Eldarov have given himself up to Chechen law enforcement agencies. âThe situation in Chechnya has changed, and I donât want to go against the will of the Chechen people,â Eldarov told reporters on Saturday, explaining his decision to lay down arms. He was negotiating his surrender via mediators with officials from the Chechen presidentâs security service. âNow we continue negotiations with other field commanders,â the chief-of-staff of the security service, Artur Akhmadov, said. In the first Chechen war, Eldarov led a rifle battalion of self-proclaimed Ichkeriaâs armed forces. Over the past few years, he has been leading armed rebel groups in the Nozhai-Yurt region.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/23/2004 12:20:47 AM ||
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As television channels replayed footage of a smashed framed photograph of the former Pentagon favourite and Iraqi National Congress leader, Ahmed Chalabi, on Friday, one adviser to the State Department could not resist a smile. "Another shattered illusion for our friends at the Department of Defence," said the adviser. "How much more can they take?"
Mr Chalabi's Baghdad villa was raided by Iraqi police on Thursday. Several INC members, including his powerful intelligence chief, are among 15 people named in an arrest warrant for possible fraud charges.
According to rumours circulating in Washington, Mr Chalabi himself is suspected of passing classified US intelligence to the Iranian government - reports dismissed as "preposterous" by his aides.
Backed to the tune of $27 million by the American taxpayer, although monthly payments have now ceased, and once touted as Washington's choice to lead Iraq, Mr Chalabi is now portraying himself as the politician who dares to stand up to the US. In Iraq nowadays, that could be a winning pitch.
Mr Chalabi's relations with Paul Bremer, the American Coalition administrator in Iraq, were never smooth.
The two men soon clashed over Mr Bremer's plans for establishing an interim governing council rather than backing a speedy switch to Iraqi sovereignty.
For President Bush, a crucial turning point came when Mr Chalabi openly criticised US policies in Iraq at the United Nations.
Aides said that to a president who values loyalty highly and expects his friends to do the same, the public comments by Mr Chalabi - formerly the Pentagon's chief source of intelligence on Iraq, including its nuclear capability - were "an eye-opener". Elsewhere, to King Abdullah of Jordan, Mr Bush remarked: "You can piss on Chalabi."
This is all, to say the least, disappointing news for Mr Chalabi's former backers, in particular the Deputy Secretary of Defence, Paul Wolfowitz and the Vice-President, Dick Cheney, who gave Mr Chalabi such enormous influence and access in Washington.
A Pentagon plane even flew Mr Chalabi triumphantly into post-war Iraq last March. Richard Perle, formerly the chairman of the influential Defence Policy Board at the Pentagon, condemned Thursday's raid as "appalling".
Yet in some corners of the Bush administration, the INC leader's dramatic fall from grace has been treated as cause for celebration.
In 2003, US State Department and CIA officials were routinely out-manoeuvred and marginalised by hardline Defence Department planners in the build-up to war. Colin Powell, the Secretary of State, was criticised for the distractions of the "UN route" to disarming Saddam.
The CIA was ridiculed for its caution in assessing the imminence of the threat that Iraq posed. Both organisations objected to the influence of Mr Chalabi, who still faces fraud charges in Jordan. Both were ignored.
Now, opportunities for revenge are coming thick and fast. The failure to predict and plan for an aggressive Iraqi insurgency following the fall of Saddam, and the horror of the Abu Ghraib prison photographs, have already tarnished the standing in the White House of the Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld, and his senior aides.
The Chalabi raid is another blow and another cue for Mr Rumsfeld's enemies to go on the attack.
"At the State Department and at the CIA, they're finally starting to swing some punches his way," said the former adviser. "When it comes to Chalabi, they've been saying for years 'not to be trusted'."
On the BBC's The World Tonight on Friday, Christopher Dickie, a journalist who has known Mr Chalabi for 20 years, said: "I interviewed Ahmed about some of the controversy surrounding him. I said: 'Look, a lot of people in the CIA and the State Department say you would do anything to drag the USA into a war with Saddam Hussein'. He looked me in the eye and he said: 'Yes. Absolutely.' "
Not any more. The Sunday Telegraph has learnt that the Pentagon was not even consulted by the top US civilian in Iraq, Mr Bremer, before last week's raid on the home of its former protege, although a meeting was held involving both State Department officials and the National Security Council.
Earlier in the week, Mr Rumsfeld had seemed unaware that INC funding of $335,000 per month from Congress was to be cut off. It is hard to imagine him being by-passed in similar fashion prior to the events of this spring.
With some glee, officials outside the Department of Defence are happy to speculate on the fading lustre of Mr Rumsfeld's star.
According to one former senior administration official: "We're finally beginning to see who is responsible for the mess that is Iraq.
The prisoner abuse scandal is a disaster for Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and co, because few people believe we're just talking about military police carrying this out. It must go further up, and Seymour Hersh's investigations (in the New Yorker) are demonstrating that. Military intelligence officers were involved.
"The raid on Chalabi's villa is another humiliation. The Pentagon relied on Chalabi and his defectors for intelligence on Saddam.
They relied on Chalabi for predictions on post-war Iraq. They backed the funding of him. Now he's been discarded and discredited. Senior people in the Department of Defence took all sorts of risks and they haven't paid off."
The judgements are harsh, but these are febrile days in the capital. Infighting over Iraq within the Bush administration and on Capitol Hill has reached such a pitch and ferocity that, according to one official within the Coalition Provisional Authority, Washington DC is now referred to as "Sunni Triangle, West".
On Thursday, Mr Bush made an unexpected visit to Congress, in an attempt to persuade increasingly restive Republican representatives that events in Iraq are under control.
According to one member, the President's visit was intended to head off a "full-scale revolt".
If the news continues to be as bleak as during the past month, the revolt may only be postponed. The Abu Ghraib prison scandal, in the minds of many Bush administration officials and formerly sympathetic congressmen, has all but destroyed the possibility of a happy ending to the American occupation of Iraq.
According to one retired general: "We've gone from 'failure is not an option' to failure, of some kind, being the only option."
A failure, when the stakes are this high, requires a culprit. While Mr Bush continues to promise that the United States will stay the course in Iraq, beyond the transfer of sovereignty on June 30, the "blame game" has begun in earnest in the corridors of his administration.
From the State Department in Foggy Bottom, to CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, lengthy briefings are being granted. Rivals, particularly if they work at the Pentagon, are being ruthlessly disparaged.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/23/2004 12:09:35 AM ||
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#1
The Telegraph really, really loves Seymour Hersh and his loopy conspiracy theories. This is the same paper that came out with Hersh's garbage about he said was a failed Ranger raid in Afghanistan. They're sound on some things, but there's a lot of that moronic condescension about Americans screwing up where the Brits would have done just fine in the article. And they really hate Rumsfeld, after what he said about the US going in without British participation.
Another conservative (by British standards) publication, the Economist has always hated Bush, but it went a little overboard when it called for Rumsfeld to resign. Let's face it - the Economist's incompetent anti-American political coverage can't have won many fans in the Bush administration. Its calling for Rumsfeld's resignation can only have reinforced GWB's conviction that retaining Rumsfeld is the right thing to do.
#2
Zhang Fei, what's to bash here? The article really lays it out: Bush is being undermined by State and CIA elements that didn't want the war in the first place and are now fighting it on Saddam's behalf in the media theater. He gambled that we could avoid cleaning house in these Arabist strongholds until the election and may lose everything. (In retrospect, not firing Powell a year ago when the media sharks were circling for the UN flop was a giant mistake.) If he doesn't get down from his "hands off CEO" high horse and lay down the law within his administration soon, we're all screwed.
#3
There are the windmills of your mind and the windmills of our war..."like a wheel within a wheel."
There's the *real* war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Culture War/War against the Dimocrats here at home and then there's the Beltway War(Pentagon vs. CIA and State).
I guess State thinks this Chalabi deal is a "win" over the Pentagon.
Who knows? I still don't think we've heard *all* of the story yet.
Chalabi seems like a whore, but what could he have picked up on us that Iran would want to know about?
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 2:36 Comments ||
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#4
Zhang Fei,
Do you read the Economist much? I do - every week. It hates Bush so much that it endorsed him for president! It supported the war to remove Saddam and wants us to succeed over there. To say its political coverage of the US is "incompetent anti-American" is a travesty.
I'm sceptical when I occasionally read about the Brits being more capable in running an "occupation" - perhaps, perhaps not. The problem is we don't have the military power or the money. But some things have got so sour recently that people (even supporters) start to question whether the US has the capability of running the show.
After the prison scandal, and perhaps a civil war between government departments, who's in charge? Are various US "agencies" working for the same thing? This is too important to screw up, especially over "turf wars" back home.
#6
State has historically been a den of self-hating exoticists, essentially a fifth column seeking to promote foreign over American interests from within.
It was a notorious nest of anti-semites before WW2 and historical inertia is such among its elite families that some of this remains to this day.
As a small example of State anti-Americanism, I happened to be in Scotland at the time of the dreadful Lockerbie air atrocity in 1989.
The behavior of the State Department toward the families of the American victims was deplorable; condescending, inept, and sometimes cruel and thoughtless.
Grieving relatives were stonewalled; told to mind their own business, fend for themselves, and stay out of the way. In one case, a box containing a victim's effects was sent to survivors with no documentation other than a note cheerfully declaring "Compliments of the US Consulate!".
Fortunately, this was Scotland rather than some barbarous hellhole, so the locals stepped into the breech and provided all possible comfort and aid to the grieving visitors.
The Scottish police were very busy and over-stretched, but they still found time and resources to send flowers to all the visiting relatives.
Hundreds of local people volunteered to spend hours cleaning the victims' clothes and possessions and packaging them for return. Every item of clothing was removed from every bag, laundered, and hand-pressed where appropriate.
My experience with the Consular Service is that American citizens are regarded as provincial boors who must be kept from inflicting their ignorance on the locals.
As a former local in that part of the world myself, it is obvious to me that it is the Consular Service, not the regular American visitors, who are the boors.
A US armoured column has rolled into the centre of Karbala, hours after troops loyal to radical Shia cleric, Moqtada al-Sadr left the area, ending weeks of heavy fighting. Earlier, a high-ranking member of Sadr's Mehdi Army militia said fighters had laid down their arms in the city centre, more than a month after their uprising began.
Officials with Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Husseini al-Sistani and anti-U.S. cleric Muqtada al-Sadr said Saturday that militiamen and U.S. forces had agreed to stop fighting in Karbala, a holy city where the two adversaries have engaged in intense battles in recent days. The clericsâ representatives of al-Sadr and al-Sistani declined to give their names, and there was no immediate comment from the U.S. military. But witnesses said there were no combatants on the streets of Karbala on Saturday.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/23/2004 12:08:28 AM ||
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#1
Gee, suppose Sadr's uprising fails, and a bunch of other would be warlords get the idea that maybe they can't beat the US this way. You think maybe there's just a chance the whole insurgency will collapse? Nah, it's already been decreed that this is a quagmire, so it'll never happen.
#3
#2 (mhw) - Don't kid yourself - big media will not cover anything that can be construed as pro-U.S. CNN & NPR so have spent far more time covering the Abu Ghraib abuses of Nov. 8th than anything else.
Posted by: A Jackson ||
05/23/2004 10:53 Comments ||
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We've only been calling it Terror Central for a coupla years now...
Karachi is emerging as the new centre of activity for the Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, claimed Dr. Farooq Sattar, the parliamentary party leader of Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM). Talking to reporters here, Sattar was quoted by The News as saying that these two extremist groups were receiving assistance from armed elements of local religious parties, who had been shifted to Karachi after the closure of Jihadi chapters in Kashmir, Afghanistan and WANA. Sattar also accused the JI (Jamaat-e-Islami) and PPP (Pakistan Peoples' Party) for the killing of MQM workers during and after the recent by-election in Karachi. He claimed that over a dozen party workers had been killed over the last 20 days. The MQM leader further said that the aim of these killings and violence was to punish the people of Karachi who had defeated the MMA and PPP candidates by electing the Muttahida candidates.(ANI)
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/23/2004 12:06:47 AM ||
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A suicide bomber attacked a military checkpoint Saturday near the Jewish settlement of Bekaot in the northern West Bank, Israeli military officials said. A paramedic at the scene said five people were hurt -- four Palestinians and an Israeli soldier, who received minor injuries. One of the Palestinians was seriously wounded, the paramedic said. The bomber died in the attack. Got his 72 raisins, but didnât manage to kill anyone else. My favorite kind of suicide bomber.
Bekaot is located in the Jordan Valley, about nine miles (15 km) east of the Palestinian city of Nablus. Israeli military officials said the bomber aroused soldiersâ suspicions when he began moving rapidly toward the checkpoint. Soldiers called on the man to stop, and then fired warning shots in the air. The man detonated explosives he was carrying moments later, about 100 feet from the checkpoint, the officials said.
A little jumpy, was he?
Posted by: Scooter McGruder ||
05/23/2004 12:00:00 AM ||
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#1
typical Paleo competence - hurts more of his own than the hated Joooos. Quite the analogy, no?
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/23/2004 11:11 Comments ||
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#2
They don't hate Jews. They hate Israelis. BIG diffrence.
#3
Bullshit, Ms. Post-a-rama!
They hate Jews, Israelis and Zionists...and Christians, and Shi'ites and Americans...and British...and...and...and...anybody else who's different from them.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/23/2004 11:17 Comments ||
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#10
Gentle you are right Jews lived peacefully in Palestine (or whatever it was called centuries ago) before some fool invented Zionism and next thing you know there is Israel. I find it Ironic that many Polish Hungarian etc people of the Jewish faith can act like the Nazis their grandparents were killed by. Think of the Palestinian family freezing cold in the clothes they are wearing(the others were lost when the house was demolished)Maybe if Polish etc people had emigrated and assimilated with the people who had lived there for centuries the Palestinians would not be homeless and persecuted
#11
Gentle they are ALWAYS like this. I guess they know they are wrong really but cannot admit it even to themselves. However a fact is true and some silly Zionist/GWB supporter disagreeing doesnt change that fact.
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
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Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
