KUALA LUMPUR, Dec 30 (Bernama) -- The death toll in Acheh, the region worst hit by last Sunday's tsunami, may exceed 400,000 as many affected areas could still not be reached for search and rescue operations, Indonesia's Ambassador to Malaysia Drs H. Rusdihardjo said Thursday. He said the estimate was based on air surveillance by Indonesian authorities who found no signs of life in places like Meulaboh, Pulau Simeulue and Tapak Tuan while several islands off the west coast of Sumatera had "disappeared". He said the latest death toll of more than 40,000 in Acheh and northern Sumatera did not take into account the figures from the other areas, especially in the west of the region.
"Aerial surveillance found the town of Meulaboh completely destroyed with only one buiding standing. The building, which belonged to the military, happens to be on a hill," he told reporters after receiving RM1 million in aid for Indonesia's Tsunami Disaster Relief Fund here Thursday. Rusdihardjo said there were about 150,000 residents in Meulaboh, which was located 150km from the epicentre of the earthquake while Pulau Simeuleu had a population of 76,000.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/30/2004 2:55:23 PM ||
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#5
Hmmm... I think it was Hurricane Andrew that killed 50 Americans and caused $30 billion in damage. This one may have caused less monetary damage while killing, what, five orders of magnitude more people?
Life in those regions is indeed cheap. Not least because of the incompetence and corruption of their governments, which cannot provide even 1/10,000 the degree of prosperity and security we provide our citizens
#7
Isn't Indonesia one of the most populous countries in the world?
2004 figures show population at around 239 million. They only have about 12% of arable land, given they are volcanic islands I'd guess that would be along the coast. So, the population would be clustered right where the waves could reach them. I'd say the 400K figure may be correct.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/30/2004 15:31 Comments ||
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#8
400K might be right. I doubt the death toll will ever be accurately known.
It is estimated that 60 million died in WWII. That is over a period from about 1939 to 1945 or about 6 years. 10,000,000 deaths per year is an average of about 27,397 deaths per day or about 191,781 deaths per week. Looks like nature wins this one.
#9
Isnât Indonesia one of the most populous countries in the world?
Indonesia is about the 5th most populous country in the world, and is the most populous âMuslimâ country in the world -- although their form of Islam is heavily influenced by Hindu, Buddhist, and animist traditions and concepts. The Indonesian death toll could easily be 100-500K in immediate deaths, and double to triple that over the next few months from disease due to lack of infrastructure. I donât think theses figures are inflations, given the population masses in that area, and the terrain.
Since Indonesia only became democratic about six years ago (following the departure of âlifer Presidentâ Suharto), Indonesia didnât have a lot of infrastructure to begin with. Also, Aceh (the hardest hit area) has even poorer infrastructure because the central government has been waging war against seditionist/terrorist quasi-islamofascist rebels since the mid-1970s. What infrastructure existed along the Northwestern coast of Sumatra has been decimated by both the earthquake (with the epicenter less than 100 miles offshore), and the tsunami (that literally removed all traces of many villages).
Without water, electricity, roads, and basic sanitation, you can guess what the problems will be in a few weeks. Straddling the equator, the temperatures are very warm, and the air is quite humid. There will be no final, precise tally of the dead, because there is no central registry or other official way to track who is missing. If whole families perished (and they did), no one will really know everybody who is missing. Yes, corruption has to be watched against, but even before this earthquake the governor of Aceh was jailed by the central government on corruption charges. Indonesia is serious about eliminating Suharto era graft.
This is an opportunity to put cultures and traditions to the test. In the 1960s, upheaval in Indonesia resulted in large shifts in alliances. In the next few weeks, the people of Aceh will learn who their true friends are, and who has just been leading them by the nose over the past thirty years. I HOPE AND TRUST WE WILL BE GENEROUS. EVEN THE INDONESIAN GOVERNMENT IS DROPPING ITS WAR FOOTING IN THE REGION AND MOVING TO HELP THE ACEHNESE. Social psychology teaches that the best way to eliminate hostility is to find a common enemy. Here, the appropriate enemy for the civilized world and the Acehnese to fight is the forces of nature and the rampage of disease.
#12
The magnitude of this tragedy is mind boggling. America has always been generous and available to those suffering such tragedies. During Iran's earthquake, we were there to help despite political differences. When Mexico had a bad earthquake we were there. As the pres said we gave about 40 percent of what was given last year for aid.
The Norwegian guy from the UN was so full of s**t about our generosity. I don't see a lot of Muslim countries rushing to help out in this tragedy. We don't get a lot of sympathy or offers of help when we have disasters-natural or man made but I agree that we need to help these folks-both for humanitarian and political reasons.
#13
Cingold, that is all nice, you're trying to overlay concepts inherent in your culture on an entirely different civilization.
You simply underestimate the capacity of strains of Islam with jihadi tilt to erode any remnants of concepts of reciprocical human behavior, let alone traits like gratitude.
This mindset would manifest in more hatred, because to rely on help of infidels would be akin to losing face.
#15
Re #13. Cingold, that is all nice, you're trying to overlay concepts inherent in your culture on an entirely different civilization.
This could be true . . . I want to be open minded.
Hereâs my culture and background: Iâm a trial attorney, with a Masterâs degree in counseling and developmental psychology. I spent my childhood growing up in Sumatra, Indonesia. Indonesian is a native, although rusty, tongue. I speak with a distinct Medan accent.
I think you are wrong about Indonesians, the Acehnese, and how profoundly positive an effect our typical American largess will have at this point in time.
At least 28 Britons have been confirmed dead in the tsunami that swept Asian coastlines last Sunday. A Foreign Office spokesman said that the latest figures showed 22 Britons as having died in Thailand, three in Sri Lanka and three in the Maldives. British officials have said that the toll among the country's nationals was likely to continue to rise, with hundreds injured in hospitals and countless others missing.
David Fall, the British ambassador in Thailand, told the BBC that "deaths are in the twenties, injured in the hundreds. We know that because people are coming to hospitals." When asked about the numbers missing, Mr Fall replied: "It's very difficult to say. It may reach in the hundreds. It's very patchy. It's a jigsaw puzzle." The Association of British Travel Agents estimated that 10,000 Britons were vacationing near or in the devastated areas. Among the dead Britons is the 14-year-old granddaughter of actor and film director Richard Attenborough, who was staying with her family in the Thai resort of Phuket. The teenager's mother, Sir Attenborough's daughter, was missing and presumed dead along with her mother-in-law, a family friend said.
Posted by: God Save The World ||
12/30/2004 2:17:01 PM ||
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Cheeze. It's one thing after another. It's almost like they were connected...
It's a sign, I tell you..
India's last active volcano, in the Andaman and Nicobar islands, has erupted in the aftermath of the huge earthquake that set off tsunamis killing thousands of people, official sources said Thursday. People have been evacuated from Barren Island since the eruption began Tuesday night and there were no reports of injury. Lava was flowing out of the rim of the crater which towers above the Indian Ocean some 500 metres (yards) away, the sources said. Tourists used to visit by boat and the island has a police station. The volcano, known as Barren 1, is located some 135 kilometres (80 miles) northeast of the capital Port Blair, and last erupted in 1996. It runs about 150 fathoms deep under the sea and usually gives off smoke. M.M. Mukherjee of the Geological Survey of India told AFP the volcano presents little real danger. "The risk is minimised because it is surrounded by the sea so if at all there is a lava flow it will roll off into the sea," he said.
That's what they said about Krakatoa
The Andamans has reported a series of major aftershocks daily since Sunday's massive undersea quake off Sumatra. The Andaman and Nicobar Islands are located near a zone of intense tectonic activity. A second volcano, called Narcondam and considered dormant, lies close to Barren Island, which also erupted in 1991 after more than a century of inactivity.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/30/2004 1:13:19 PM ||
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#1
Where do they get "last" from? I could understand if it's their "sole currently" active volcano, but "last" seems a bad fit.
Posted by: Dar ||
12/30/2004 14:04 Comments ||
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#2
That's it. I'm getting reservations and a ticket for a less restive planet.
#3
Mars is pretty passive. The surface of Venus hasn't moved in 500 million years, but the best we can tell it has all its seismic and volcanic events all at once.
#4
I've heard that not a lot of animals died, so at least the DU has that. Unless they were Zionist animals who were warned ahead of time by the Mossad...
December 29, 2004 11:12 PM,
Laksamana.Net - The death toll in Aceh province from Sunday's catastrophic earthquake and tsunamis could climb to 80,000, a United Nations official said Wednesday (29/12/04). "I would say we are probably talking about somewhere in the order of 80,000 people, 50 to 80,000 people, that would be my educated guess," Michael Elmquist, head of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs for Indonesia, was quoted as saying by Reuters. "It's a guess based on the relation between the numbers we have so far and our experience from other earthquake disasters," he added.
Elmquist said 40,000 people might have died in the coastal town of Meulaboh, which was about 150 kilometers from the epicenter of the 9 magnitude quake. "The news I got from a government official on arrival today was that their estimate was that a third of the population [of Meulaboh] had been wiped out, which would equal 40,000 people," he was quoted as saying by Reuters. The Health Ministry at 5pm Wednesday put the official confirmed death toll for all of Indonesia at 36,268, with more than 21,370 deaths in Aceh, including 3,400 in Meulaboh. Coordinating Minister for Political, Legal and Security Affairs Widodo Adisutjipto said 80% the town had been completely flattened by the quake and giant waves.
Aceh's military commander Major General Endang Suwarya said up to three-quarters of Sumatra's western coastline had been destroyed, with some towns being totally leveled. "The damage is truly devastating; 75% of the west coast is destroyed and [in] some places it's 100%. These people are isolated and we will try and get them help," he was quoted as saying by the Associated Press.
[snip]
Suwarya said the Indonesian Defense Forces will use Hercules C-130 aircraft to drop relief aid to people on Aceh's western coastal regions because land transportation routes to those parts of the province are destroyed. "Land transportation to the west coast of Aceh has been disrupted, roads and bridges between Banda Aceh and Meulaboh are devastated.
[snip]
I have no words . . .
Posted by: cingold ||
12/30/2004 3:20:06 AM ||
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#1
This is an aerial view of the town of Meulaboh in Aceh province which was flattened by tidal waves on Sunday, photographed on Wednesday, Dec. 29, 2004.
#3
....and it keeps coming and coming. Its not a single wave in the sense we normally have of it. Its more like a flash flood. One minute nothing and then the water pours in and just keeps pouring in.
#4
Just think of all the trouble Aceh was before this thing. Just think of the ignorant push to institute stricter Sharia and how we poked fun at these yokels.
It seems so completely irrelavant now, doesn't it?
What I wouldn't give to go back to that if it meant that this never happened.
#6
The always graceful Peggy Noonan in today's Wall Street Journal:
"Not everyone distinguished himself. What to say of those who've latched on to the tragedy to promote their political agendas, from the U.N. official who raced to call the U.S. "stingy," to the global-warming crowd, to administration critics who jumped at the chance to call the president insensitive because he was vacationing in Texas and didn't voice his sympathy quickly enough? Such people are slyly asserting their own, higher sensitivity and getting credit for it, which is odd because what they're actually doing is using dead people to make cheap points."
Posted by: Matt ||
12/30/2004 13:06 Comments ||
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Wildlife officials in Sri Lanka said yesterday that although thousands of people perished in the quake and tidal wave catastrophe, no dead animals had been found on the island nation. A photographer who flew over Sri Lanka's Yala National Park spotted "abundant wildlife," but not one carcass. Almost 23,000 people are thought to have died in the country, but H.D. Ratnayake, deputy director of the Department of Wildlife Conservation Sri Lanka, said it appeared that the animals had sensed danger and headed to safety. ... And Mucky just smiled his best Cheshire Smile...
Posted by: .com ||
12/30/2004 2:15:16 AM ||
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#1
But I heard this morning that "millions" are now out hunting for food, so this could be a short lived reprieve for Bambi and Dumbo.
#2
I don't think it's that complicated. The human species is wired for curiosity. When all of the sudden the bay recedes, fish are flapping around on the waterless bottom, and you hear a massive roar coming from offshore, what do we do? Head down to the coast to check out the excitement. What do animals do? Get the hell out dodge. A few hundred yards inland or a few dozen feet upslope was probably plenty in most instances.
#2
It will go much higher. Right now, it's just counting the big places with phones and such. Wait till the counts from all the tiny little coastal villages start coming in...
#4
Mojo, I don't think there will be much in the way of phone calls from the little coastal villages. Nobody left to make the call, and anyway, what phone?
Moving to further centralize the communist state's control over the economy, the government's Central Bank announced Thursday that individual state companies would no longer handle foreign exchange. Beginning Saturday a single government account will be established for foreign currency and for convertible Cuban pesos, an exchangeable currency that trades 1-1 to the U.S. dollar and that is now used as the primary form of legal tender on the island. Under a series of steps to be introduced in the coming months, state enterprises will relinquish control over foreign exchange and convertible Cuban peso accounts. Any profits from sales or services will have to be deposited into that single government account. The move will severely limit any remaining autonomy inside the various state enterprises. It will also effectively turn back an earlier government policy calling for state enterprises to move toward self-financing by pouring earned foreign income back into their operations. Also, a state company that now wishes to buy any goods or services available only in foreign currency will need special approval from a new Foreign Exchange Approval Committee. The announcement was the latest in a series of moves in recent months aimed at reasserting government control over the economy in general, and over foreign currency income in particular.
#1
Cuba is an anachonism. Under Castro, the economy has always been controlled by the government. Historically the economy has been based on sugar cane until more recently when its opened up to some tourism from Europe. When Fidel dies, most likely Raul will take over if the country doesn't revolt an go democratic.
A newly reconstructed version of the 1925 Soviet film Battleship Potemkin will premiere at Berlin Film Festival. The film, by Sergei Eisenstein, dramatised a mutiny on the Russian ship showing how it inspired a failed 1905 uprising against the country's czars. It now includes Russian graphics and words from revolutionary Leon Trotsky, which were censored in the 1920s. The festival, which is showing the film next year, said no complete print of the original movie survived. It will be shown at the festival on 12 and 13 February and will be accompanied by live music from the German Film Orchestra Babelsberg. One of its best-known scenes is the Odessa steps sequence, in which a child in a pram rolls down a staircase as fighting rages around it.
Which has been copied in countless movies since. Wonder when it'll be out on DVD?
Posted by: Steve ||
12/30/2004 8:35:15 AM ||
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Posted by: Frank G ||
12/30/2004 10:22 Comments ||
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#3
That has GOT to be one of the most overrated bad movies around. It has been pumped by the same lefty hosers who got off on "Reds", starring Warren Beatty as comsymp John Reed. If you want to see Russians standing around with their chests pumped out in a propaganda movie, see "Alexander Nevsky" instead.
President Leonid Kuchma and other members of the outgoing Ukrainian elite, including the heads of the rebellious eastern regions, may be prosecuted by the new government, the president-elect, Viktor Yushchenko, told the Guardian. "The president has to answer under the law like any other citizen," he said yesterday, with reference to Mr Kuchma, in his first interview with the western media since he won the Boxing Day's runoff. "Any citizen, any businessman, any politician whose actions do not correspond to national law must be punished, whether... they are the president's son-in-law or his char lady in his office."
Yush, buddy, get into office first.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/30/2004 00:00:00 ||
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#1
You can take the Ukrainian out of Russia, but you can't take the Russian out of Ukraine...
You knew it was only a matter of time...
LONDON (AFP) - Former US president Bill Clinton urged a coordinated effort to provide relief to the countries stricken by the tidal wave that killed tens of thousands across South Asia. Thanks, Bill. Could've never figured that one out without you.
"It is really important that somebody take the lead in this," he told BBC Radio 4's Today program. Something must be done! Somebody must do it!
"I think one of the problems is when everybody takes responsibility it's almost like no one's responsibility." Sounds like his presidency...
Clinton said individual countries should target aid at specific areas. "Maybe what we should do is get countries or groups of countries to take responsibility for specific countries that were hurt," he said. "I think if you did that you would have a better chance of seeing responsibilities fulfilled even when the emotional tug wanes." Maybe we could send Jimmah Carter and his hammer over to help out...
The United Nations on Monday said that the biggest disaster relief operation ever staged would be needed for the Asian tsunami (sea surge) victims as medicines and other emergency supplies started pouring into the worst-hit areas. UN disaster relief coordinator Jan Egeland said the cost of the devastation will be in the "billions of dollars". You want to know about "stingy', bub? Give Bill a call and hit him up for a few bucks. He'll send you a box of his used underwear. And be damn quick about sending him back a receipt...
#4
Yewbetcha - Clinton's the man to listen to. Nobody can call 'em or see 'em or nail'em like Bill. --1-- SNSFW --2-- NSFW --3-- SNSFW --4-- SNSFW --5-- --6-- NSFW --7-- NSFW
#5
Well, Bill will at least have the confidence that whoever does what, it will be part of *his* plan, so that he will deserve credit for it. It's important for his legacy and stuff.
#2
Parks, who years ago legally changed her surname to that of the famed civil rights activist Rosa Parks
'Nuff said. Some folks have way too much time on their hands. How about channeling that into something useful, huh?
#3
"Good evening, I'm Marlin Perkins. They once roamed the Great Plains in vast numbers, but no more. Now nearly extinct, the last few survivors of the species are kept in a small nature preserve in Boston. Tonight on Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, Jim and I will take a rare look at a dying breed, the Kerry's Moonbat."
Posted by: Mike ||
12/30/2004 9:34 Comments ||
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#4
Heh heh - this has gotta be like fingernails on the chalkboard for JFnK and Terayyyza - every time they look out the window or hear the chanting....Merry Christmas to all Boston Brahmins!
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/30/2004 9:57 Comments ||
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#5
Crickey! Jim's got one! Jim will now painlessly tag this interesting creature in the ear. Hummmm... looks like it's been tagged previously? I said EAR! ear! Jim, Jim painlessly dammit! They're small children watching, Dang! That's gotta hurt.
Oh well, such is life in Wilde Kingdom of the inner harbour.
#6
You mean Hanoi John actually had a "cause". That traitorous back stabbing buddy fucker ought to now be tried for treason. What a worthless piece of odiferous crap selling himslef as a patriot. he makes me puke everytime I hear his name. Good fuckin riddance Hanoi john, and a word of advice, don't try to run again. The Swift Vets, others and me are keeping an eye on you.
Posted by: Bill Nelson ||
12/30/2004 10:42 Comments ||
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#7
every time they look out the window or hear the chanting
It get's even better, John and Terayyza were not even in Boston, they're vacationing at one of her other homes.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/30/2004 11:39 Comments ||
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#8
# 7 Ditto- LOL for the Kerrys. I knew in November
that he would not win the race- there is too much going on in the country to switch presidents.
I know there will not be a recount in Ohio as well. Remember the ballot's that were NOT counted in Florida year's ago - Well the same thing will happen again- no recount will be granted. LOL if J.K. decides to run again.
Andrea
Posted by: ANdrea ||
12/30/2004 12:06 Comments ||
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#9
Won't you lose your democratic decoder ring for posting that?
#10
My wife and I saw "Jane Eyre" last night and I couldn't help think of Kerry as Mr Rochester-- a beaten, haunted man who put away his mad first wife (as Kerry did), who nearly married a golddigger (as Kerry did), and whose character is marked by arrogance, fecklessness, and a burning sense of betrayal owing to his catastrophic youth.
Good riddance. God forbid we see more such "complex" and "interesting" candidates brimming with psychological issues. Can we for once have a reasonably normal set of candidates who made their way in the world without accumulating all sorts of emotional baggage or favors from daddy?
If you're referring to President Bush, then that is a cheap shot with nothing I can see here to justify it or back it up. How has he "used" Daddy - we voted for him. We didn't have to, Daddy or no. Has he done a bad job as President? Is he anything like Daddy? Hasn't he discarded Daddy's foreign policies like a bad habit? He just got re-elected with the first majority in a long time... sounds like the country wants him - certainly more than the alternative... which brings us back on-topic. The unhinged fool is Skeery. Why bash Bush? Pfeh.
#12
Bush has done a decent job overall, and I especially admire how he cast off his father's advisers and made his own decisions re Iraq. The old man's a cautious realpolitiker; W's truly in favor of promoting democracy. Bravo for that.
But let's be honest: like JFK, or Hillary, or any of dozens of children of US politicians these days, W never would have ascended to the highest ranks of the Republican Party if his father had not paved the way for him.
I'd like to see less nepotism in our politics-- it's a systemic problem, whether you're talking about Daleys in Chicago or Kennedys or Bushes or whoever. And fewer gazillionaires in Congress, too. Whatever happened to the self-made man?
Posted by: Ross Perot ||
12/30/2004 15:23 Comments ||
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#16
C'mon lex! Politics is like any other marketing endeavor -- name recognition is the first driver of choice. So anyone with an already familiar name has an advantage, something that American politicians have used for quite some time.... As I recall, John Quincy Adams (U.S. Pres. #6) was the son of John Adams (Pres. #2), FDR was Teddy's cousin. Not to mention the Vice Presidents who ran on the tails of their bosses (Bush, Sr., f'r instance). A smart politician uses everything serendipity has given him, and always has.
Even so, name recognition doesn't trump quality, or JFK would be in the White House now -- his name after all has been news since the Viet Nam war, and his cousin ruled in Camelot.
#17
Incidentally, am I the only person to have made note of the fact that in the chatspeaking world of my peers, JK stands for 'just kidding'? It seems to be the man's excuse every time he is caught out with a complete debasement of the truth.
Posted by: trailing daughter of the trailing wife ||
12/30/2004 15:26 Comments ||
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trailing wife: I disagree. The trend toward nepotism is disturbing because it coincides with, and is part of, a larger trend toward non-competitive electoral districts. Congressional offices and mayoral offices are increasingly like fiefdoms passed down from father to son (or daughter) or from husband to wife. The results are 1)it's harder and harder for anyone outside the party (and family) establishment to break in; 2) we have more and more dinosaurs hanging on and suffocating innovation and dynamism (see Hillary effect); and 3) as "branding" becomes all-powerful, money becomes seen as still more important, which distorts our politics further.
How about we get back to candidates who are neither gazillionaires nor children of politicians? Y'know, people who've actually worked a wage labor job or paid their own way through college or served in the military or have done so themselves?
#20
I think you've hung your hat on a myth, lex. Its always been the case that politicians are mainly from the leisure class, because they are the ones who can afford not to work -- look at the founding fathers, or the Antibellum period. Or the Kennedy and Rockefeller dynasties. But the current generation of Kennedys doesn't seem to be getting far on the basis of their name, nor the Rockefellers, either.
With regard to working man policos, McCain is a perfect example. Dr. Whatsisname, who is in the Reserves, too. Not to mention the Machine politicians who are rightfully ending their careers in prison.
In fact, the argument could be made that the American political world is opening up, as the Party Machines break down, and many of the old names have lost their glamour. Who will replace Teddy Kennedy, when he finally realizes he's been brain dead for decades? I'll bet it won't be a member of his immediate clan. And, do you really think Massachussetts voters will continue to re-elect their now-proven loser of a junior senator?
We have a new generation of young men and women who have been tempered by war. I don't think they will have much patience with unsuitable legacy politicians. Then, too, the youngsters know the power of the Internet. I am confident they will do us proud.
#21
Its always been the case that politicians are mainly from the leisure class,
Nonsense. Think Truman, Eisenhower, Johnson, Nixon, Ford Carter Reagan Clinton. None of them a gazillionaire or even very wealthy. None of them a politician's kid. That's EIGHT of the last ten pre-2000 politicians!
Hell, when I was a kid my party was led by working class heroes like Tip O'Neill and Daniel Pat Moynihan. That, not Kennedy Corzine Boxer Kerry Heinz Frist Rockefeller gazillionaires and Pelosi-the-society-lady, was the norm. Men and women distinguished by their smarts and political skills and insight into the problems and aspirations of the vast working and middle classes. You didn't need to make a $60 million fortune on Wall Street or inherit a family business worth billions or marry an investment banker or a rich man's widow in order to join the club; you got in by winning an election, and it used to be that elections were won through superior organization, ward by ward, street by street.
We didn't have this ridiculous situation where the average net worth of a US Senator is in the tens of millions of dollars, ie, probably 400x or 500x that of their constituents.
#22
It's no wonder that these jokers are so clueless about issues that are clobbering ordinary people across this country, from illegal immigration to health insurance to decent schools for their kids. What the f*** would a Sen. Jon GoldenSlacks or Nancy Pelosi know about these issues? Illegals are nannies, not rivals who undercut honest immigrants' and other workingmen's wages. Health insurance? Not my problem. Public schools? They're fine-- my kids go to $15,000 per year private schools but the NEA folks tell me that their schools' performance is improving every year, and that's good enough for the little people. Screw these idiots.
#23
"Mainly", lex, "mainly". My parents voted Democrat Rockefellers into the NY governorship and Congress while you got to choose Tip O'Neil and Moynihan up there in Massachussetts.
But Congresscritters no longer get elected to the White House, and fancy names never guaranteed the ability to govern that is so necessary to actually running a state. Lessee: Truman was a jumped up VP, Eisenhower a WWII general, Johnson (?), Nixon (?), Ford another jumped up VP, Carter a State governor, Reagan and Clinton ditto. Its that name recognition thingy. Works for me!
Posted by: trailng daughter of the trailing wife ||
12/30/2004 17:16 Comments ||
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#24
It really undercuts "brilliant" commentary when my daughter's name accidentally ends up at the bottom, darn it!
#26
tw, get real. The eight of ten presidents in 1945-2000 I cited were all self-made men, most of them brilliant politicians, many of them hugely successful in private life as well. They didn't need coattails or daddy's help. In fact, three of them grew up in broken homes (Reagan, Johnson, Clinton) with deadbeat or drunk or abusive fathers.
Now let's look at the major candidates since 1996:
Democrats:
-- Al Gore Jr., St Albans-educated son of Senator Albert Gore
-- John Kerry, Swiss and Andover-educated son of US diplomat
-- Hillary Clinton (in 2008), wife of president
Republicans:
-- George W Bush, baseball team owner and son of president
-- John McCain, son of an admiral
-- Bill Frist, heir to a $$$billion+ family business
This could probably go under Fifth Column as easily. Note how WaPo subtly implies the paltry $.5M in private donations to SwiftVets belong in Bush campaign money totals. Note, also, that they seem to be substantiating the current Donk meme that it wasn't the message that was defeated, but how it was delivered. Please, let's find the flaws and post 'em, lol! Fun for the whole family!
In the most expensive presidential contest in the nation's history, John F. Kerry and his Democratic supporters nearly matched President Bush and the Republicans, who outspent them by just $60 million, $1.14 billion to $1.08 billion. But despite their fundraising success, Democrats simply did not spend their money as effectively as Bush.
If they had, they'd have won, of course. It goes without saying...
That is the conclusion of an extensive examination of campaign fundraising and spending data provided by the Federal Election Commission, the Internal Revenue Service and interviews with officials of the two campaigns and the independent groups allied with them. In a $2.2 billion election, two relatively small expenditures by Bush and his allies stand out for their impact: the $546,000 ad buy by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and the Bush campaign's $3.25 million contract with the firm TargetPoint Consulting. The first portrayed Kerry in unrelentingly negative terms, permanently damaging him, while the second produced dramatic innovations in direct mail and voter technology, enabling Bush to identify and target potential voters with pinpoint precision.
The first, from my understanding, was an independent group, not associated with the Bush campaign. If I'd have been a swift boater who was there at the same time as Kerry, I'd have jumped on board, and wouldn't have needed any money or even encouragement from Bush. I didn't think Kerry's actions as a junior officer qualified him to be commander in chief, any more than my own actions as a junior NCO at the same time did. Having run into a showboating officer or two in my time in Vietnam, the breed's not that hard to recognize from a distance. His record since Vietnam has done absolutely nothing to change that assessment.
Those tactical successes were part of the overall advantage the Bush campaign maintained over Kerry in terms of planning, decision making and strategy. The Kerry campaign, in addition to being outspent at key times, was outorganized and outthought, as Democratic professionals grudgingly admit.
That begins with the candidate, doesn't it? Seems like the Demos have a perfect record in misunderestimating Dubya.
"They were smart. They came into our neighborhoods. They came into Democratic areas with very specific targeted messages to take Democratic voters away from us," Democratic National Committee Chairman Terence R. McAuliffe said. "They were much more sophisticated in their message delivery."
I think that's the first time a Democrat has used the word 'sophisticated' to describe a Republican. So even though the whines about 'message delivery' and 'taking Democratic voters away from us' are completely wrong, you have to admire the Dems for their honesty.
The ultimate test of the two campaigns is in the success of their efforts to increase turnout from 2000. Kerry and his allies increased the Democrat's vote by about 6.8 million votes; Bush increased his by nearly 10.5 million. In the key battleground of Ohio, Bush countered Kerry's gains in the metropolitan precincts by boosting his margin in exurban and rural counties from 57 to 60 percent, eking out a 118,457-vote victory.
J Frickin' K eeked out a 130,000 vote victory in Pennsylvania, but we don't seem to hear a whole lot about that.
A supposed strategic advantage for the Democrats -- massive support from well-endowed independent groups -- turned out to have an inherent flaw: The groups' legally required independence left them with a message out of harmony with the Kerry campaign.
Not that there was a lot of harmony within the Kerry campaign.
He's referring to the Michael Moore-George Soros-Air America-Barbra Streisand axis. The Kerry campaign did nothing to move away from them, instead embraced them warmly and proclaimed them representative of our national values. Strangely enough, more than 50 percent of the voting population didn't really like that...
A large part of Bush's advantage derived from being an incumbent who did not face a challenger from his party. He also benefited from the experience and continuity of a campaign hierarchy, based on a corporate model, that had essentially stayed intact since Bush's 1998 reelection race for Texas governor... And the denial continues...
They forgot to call Bush stupid and a puppet of Dick Cheney-Halliburton-whoever else. So maybe it'll wear off in a few months...
Posted by: .com ||
12/30/2004 2:29:13 AM ||
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#1
Naturally, there is no mention of MSM participation: one would think that Memogate would have merited a mention.
If Captain Nuance really had the skills to sway foreign governments to action, then he should have used them on the American electorate first, to prove they were in his possession. He didn't, he couldn't, so they aren't.
The essence of governance is discovering one's supporters and detractors, getting one's message out efficiently, and motivating one's supporters to action. Bush's team did that better than Kerry's when it came to the election, and thus merit the right to govern. Karl Rove isn't there just to win elections: He's on tap whenever the President
#3
Let'em have their flawed analysis and see how much it helps them in '08.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
12/30/2004 8:14 Comments ||
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#4
In the most expensive presidential contest in the nationâs history, John F. Kerry and his Democratic supporters nearly matched President Bush and the Republicans, who outspent them by just $60 million, $1.14 billion to $1.08 billion.
You know you're reading a liberal rag when they use the adjective just in describing $60 million.
But despite their fundraising success, Democrats simply did not spend their money as effectively as Bush. That is the conclusion of an extensive examination of campaign fundraising and spending data provided by the Federal Election Commission, the Internal Revenue Service and interviews with officials of the two campaigns and the independent groups allied with them.
"Alright, who put the 'Bush had the democrats by the balls' remark in the draft report?"
In a $2.2 billion election, two relatively small expenditures by Bush and his allies stand out for their impact: the $546,000 ad buy by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and the Bush campaignâs $3.25 million contract with the firm TargetPoint Consulting. The first portrayed Kerry in unrelentingly negative terms, permanently damaging him, while the second produced dramatic innovations in direct mail and voter technology, enabling Bush to identify and target potential voters with pinpoint precision.
That is why the Swift boat veterans were called veterans for truth, not veterans for leftist bullsh*t.
Those tactical successes were part of the overall advantage the Bush campaign maintained over Kerry in terms of planning, decision making and strategy. The Kerry campaign, in addition to being outspent at key times, was outorganized and outthought, as Democratic professionals grudgingly admit.
Outthought is the key here. When you deliver a message that says: we will end the war... no wait, we will finish the war... no wait, we will win the war, but better... no wait...
Money doesn't fix that. The democrats have some very intelligent people working for them, but they were leftists and fifth columnists, and the US electorate didn't want to hear about how bad things were going. They, like me, want a military victory in Iraq, low taxes, love of allies and hate for our enemies.
The fundamental flaw in the democrats' strategy was just as it was in 2000: They thought votors would respond to leftist ideas, but after 911, it just wasn't happening. They still do not think we are at a real war even after losing in 2004. They are still in the glidepath to another pasting by the right, and rightfully, and, hopefully, painfully so.
"They were smart. They came into our neighborhoods. They came into Democratic areas with very specific targeted messages to take Democratic voters away from us," Democratic National Committee Chairman Terence R. McAuliffe said. "They were much more sophisticated in their message delivery."
That loser still in charge of the democratic party? McAuliffe was Bush's best strategic weapon against the left.
The ultimate test of the two campaigns is in the success of their efforts to increase turnout from 2000. Kerry and his allies increased the Democratâs vote by about 6.8 million votes; Bush increased his by nearly 10.5 million. In the key battleground of Ohio, Bush countered Kerryâs gains in the metropolitan precincts by boosting his margin in exurban and rural counties from 57 to 60 percent, eking out a 118,457-vote victory.
A supposed strategic advantage for the Democrats -- massive support from well-endowed independent groups -- turned out to have an inherent flaw: The groupsâ legally required independence left them with a message out of harmony with the Kerry campaign.
This is rich. The fact is that Moveon et al were perfectly in harmony with the Kerry camp, fifth columnist with regard to the war, and statist with regard to taxes. The fact is the Kerry camp made more right turns in its positions that a toy train set, setting itself apart from the 527s and trying to gain voters wasn't going to work, no matter how badly they hated Bush.
A large part of Bushâs advantage derived from being an incumbent who did not face a challenger from his party. He also benefited from the experience and continuity of a campaign hierarchy, based on a corporate model, that had essentially stayed intact since Bushâs 1998 reelection race for Texas governor.
Pardon my red state, Jesusland stupidity, but I seem to recall after Dean' screechfest, it was Kerry all the way, that nearly every other democratic candidate was made irrelevant. The left was united, engourged with money and coming after Bush.
The left missed the train when they decided to coronate Kerry as their candidate.
I remarked when Kerry started winning big that the Kerry Koronation was a gift; that the left would lose this election.
No one in time of war wants to hear the same platitudes and the same rhetoric as from a typical Euro leftist political party. And it seems they still believe that we want to become like Eurostan.
Expect another immolation in 2006, democrats. Bush took you all to the woodshed, and you're going back there again unless you get the message.
#5
Mrs D., I'm betting on the other side's blind rage and flawed analysis to get us through the next two election cycles ('06 and '08)
I can't to see what issue the MSM is going to try to turn into Watergate for the Bush admin, and watch it blow up in the Dems' faces...
Posted by: Carl in N.H. ||
12/30/2004 8:21 Comments ||
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#6
Agree, Carl. But I doubt they'll find a Watergate equivalent unless it involves Underperformin Norman Mineta.
It is amazing, but not amazingly unreported, how scandal free this administration has been. His dad's was too. You know the M$M would love to find one, so they must just do a great job of recruiting people who just want to simply be public servants.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
12/30/2004 8:58 Comments ||
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#7
"They were smart. They came into our neighborhoods. They came into Democratic areas with very specific targeted messages to take Democratic voters away from us," Democratic National Committee Chairman Terence R. McAuliffe said. "They were much more sophisticated in their message delivery."
Yeah, that statement makes your job performance look real good, Terry. Might want to leave that off of the resume.
#8
"They were much more sophisticated in their message delivery." It wasn't the delivery, it was the message. The democrats here in the office where I work who voted for President Bush did so because they couldn't tell what Kerry's message and position were. To them the most important things were national security and the war in Iraq. I work in an engineering office where there are very few people under 35 years old and the Democrats are life-long Democrats. They were never going to vote for an extreme liberal like John Kerry. They also won't vote for Hillary in 2008.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
12/30/2004 10:20 Comments ||
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#9
Oh goody. Glad you found this, dotcom. I was reading the article on my way out the door this a.m. and was hoping to get some good blog analysis.
#10
I, for one, bow to their expert analysis, and can forsee that if they just screach their message a little louder (paper mache pupets are useful too), that they will, of course, be victorious... yeppers
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/30/2004 10:37 Comments ||
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#11
Don't forget the pink cardboard tanks, Frank. Absolutely critical to the message.
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/30/2004 11:31 Comments ||
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#14
I got deluged with "Vote for Kerry" crap from my old union starting six months prior to the election. No actual help from them in finding a j-o-b, mind you....but they always remembered me when it came time to send out that garbage.
I wonder how many union and former union people got turned off completely by that never-ending avalanche of propaganda?
#15
More MSM bullshit. Kerry had tons of money, in fact more than he knew how to spend. And the 527s gave him tons of human resources-- again, more than he could intelligently deploy. And on top of that he had an openly favorable MSM getting his message out daily.
The crucial difference was that Bush/Rove's people were 1.4 million volunteers working in their own neighborhoods through voluntary community associations and social networks, mainly churches.
In other words, they listened to people, understood what people cared about, and offered them a program that was more in touch with what ordinary people cared about rather than what their bicoastal betters thought they should care about.
United States President George Bush was tonight accused of trying to undermine the United Nations by setting up a rival coalition to coordinate relief following the Asian tsunami disaster. The president has announced that the US, Japan, India and Australia would coordinate the world's response. But former International Development Secretary Clare Short said that role should be left to the UN. Quick quiz, Clare: What do the letters "STFU" stand for?
"I think this initiative from America to set up four countries claiming to coordinate sounds like yet another attempt to undermine the UN when it is the best system we have got and the one that needs building up," she said. "Only really the UN can do that job," she told BBC Radio Four's PM programme. "It is the only body that has the moral authority. But it can only do it well if it is backed up by the authority of the great powers."
"We don't have any moral authority, so we can't give you any groceries. Sorry."
Ms Short said the coalition countries did not have good records on responding to international disasters. She said the US was "very bad at coordinating with anyone" and India had its own problems to deal with. "I don't know what that is about but it sounds very much, I am afraid, like the US trying to have a separate operation and not work with the rest of the world through the UN system," she added. Let the games begin...
#1
"You! . . . You there! . . . You Americans! . . . Take that food and those medical supplies and tents and put them back on that C-130 and go back where you came from, do you hear me! . . . Don't give me that nonsense, Mister Unilateral Cowboy! It doesn't matter if those people are sick or starving or not, you don't have the moral authority to be giving them aid in the first place."
Smugly congratulating himself for successfully upholding the sanctity of International Law in the presence of reporters, the UN/EU/NGO official turns his back on the scene of the disaster and boards the Dassault Falcon waiting to take him to the next international conference, at which he will condemn the Bushitler administration for not doing enough for tsunami relief.
Posted by: Mike ||
12/30/2004 18:08 Comments ||
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#2
Clare's right, as usual. It's not about improving lives or actually helping anyone in meaningful ways. It's all about bashing the evil US warmongers.
#6
My God, Frank G, don't you think the hungry survivors have suffered enough? ;-)
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
12/30/2004 18:31 Comments ||
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#7
maybe - I just thought she should get credit for feeding the hungry
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/30/2004 18:32 Comments ||
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#8
Clare's got a point...the UN will convene its "Committee for the Discussion of the Appropriate Global Response to the Natural Disaster of Going on Two Weeks Ago" on 6 January, and then promptly break for lunch. Surely Dubya is just twiddling his thumbs 'til 5 January...just to make the UN look bad.
#10
I can't take it. Weren't we just accused of being "stingy"?? Wasn't Bush accused of being "insensitive" for not jumping in a boat and saving all those poor souls himself? And didn't Bubba himself say the US should take the lead in this effort, because we, uh, should? (I guess; I'm thinking it's just his way of trying to get more attention again.)
Good. I hope we undermine the UN. I hope we prove how useless that corrupt POS organization is. We'll still be considered pricks, though, because, gee, we're Americans.
I can't believe the focus is on America and what we are or aren't doing, what Bush is or isn't doing, and not on the fact 125,000 people lost their lives (and the number's only going to increase) and hundreds of thousands more are still in danger from the after effects.
Hey, Clare, honey: what's Mecca doing for those in Indonesia? Yeah, that's what I thought. Go have a meeting.
#11
Geez, nada - don't hold back. Tell us what you really think. :-D
I think Clare is aptly named - she's Short on decency, brains, and common sense.
Too bad she's not short on running her mouth.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
12/30/2004 19:34 Comments ||
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#12
"U.N." as "moral authority". I don't think so.
Posted by: Tom ||
12/30/2004 20:12 Comments ||
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#13
"It is the only body that has the moral authority. But it can only do it well if it is backed up by the authority of the great powers."
I think that's UN-speak for bullshit walks and money talks.
Posted by: Matt ||
12/30/2004 20:14 Comments ||
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#14
I think that Ms Short is a little concerned that this might start a trend and she and her compatriots will lose their place at the trough. The UN bureaucrats really like to spend other people's money on relief, particularly when they get a percentage and all the credit. They should all FOAD and it should be televised on pay per view to raise relief funds.
#15
Remember the kid in school that always wanted to lead, carry the flag, be a captain to choose sides, etc, but no one liked them cuz they were sneaky snobs and nasty little shits who sucked up to the teachers all the time and ratted people out and wouldn't pass your notes in class?
#19
File this one under: "No good deed goes unpunished."
If we really wanted to make everything grind to a halt, all America need do is propose an aid-dollar matching funds program with the Islamic OPEC members.
Anyone heard of some billions for their woebegotten Islamic brethern forthcoming from those Muslim nations?
#22
for Muslims only? If there were Jews needing help, would they help? Are there strings attached? You betcha, and you, Aris, would think that's OK, wouldn't you? Typical
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/30/2004 21:58 Comments ||
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#23
In other words Saudi Arabia's pledging less than Pfizer, a US pharmaceutical firm.
#24
Saudi Arabia less than Denmark and Pfizer. Seriously, this is all statistical nonsense because it doesn't include individual and corporate charitable gifts. Wanna bet what the tallies look like after that?
Posted by: Tom ||
12/30/2004 22:08 Comments ||
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#25
When you include corporate and charitable gifts, I'd guess you'll come out around 50-60% US, 15-20% Japan and every other nation below 4% of the total.
Then please do something useful for once, and provide your info. Or don't the people of this forum deserve to know?
, and you, Aris, would think that's OK, wouldn't you?
No, I would think that you are as always a trolling asshole kid whose words are mainly making me wonder whether you suffered parental corporal punishment. Depending on the case you would provide a hell of an argument either for or against it.
Fred's not responded yet to my email about your trolling. This war between us will end one way or another.
#27
Oh pleeeeeease, Fred, don't take away our chew toy!
Posted by: Tom ||
12/30/2004 22:21 Comments ||
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#28
Pfizer and I think Merck have already pledged ~$20M each in kind plus ~$10M each in cash. Similar gifts announced today from JP Morgan Chase and several other US multinationals, with many more to come. Gates pledged $3M yesterday and will probably ante up more. You could probably multiply his gift by 20 to arrive at what other US gazillionaires will contribute, and then triple it to account for other private US individuals. Pretty easy to see the US-- including corps and private individuals and charities-- exceeding $250M in rapid order here.
#29
Amazon.com collected about 87,000 donations totaling $5.4 million for the American Red Cross as of this afternoon.
Posted by: Tom ||
12/30/2004 22:26 Comments ||
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#30
How about the Mogen David Adom work side by side with the Red Crescent crews? Would that be OK with the Saudis? With you if it didn't work out because the RC refuses...would that be ok, Aris?
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/30/2004 22:33 Comments ||
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#31
OK, then I'm probably off by an order of magnitude. If a screaming nut like Howard Dean can raise $40M practicaly overnight from <$200 small contributors, and if Amazon can raise $5M in a matter of hours, then it's likely that US small contributors, not gazillionaires, will contribute the majority of non-corporate private charity. Which means if Gates and the gazillionaires contribute maybe $100M, then small folks will contribute at least twice that, so there's $300M, minimum.
Charities will probably double that sum, as will corporations, so maybe we're looking at closer to $1.5B from non-governmental and private US sources. Which throws into relief all this nonsense about the US government's "stingy" contribution. I doubt the EU and UN will come up with 1/10th as much as private US sources alone.
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/30/2004 22:36 Comments ||
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#33
Frank, we both know you are not asking me questions, you are just trolling. So why don't you stop pretending?
And instead of asking what-if questions, half of which are sheer baiting and innuendo, and the other half of which I have no clue why you are asking them at me (have I ever defended Saudi Arabia? *Ever*?) why don't you defend the assertion you yourself made with facts?
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/30/2004 22:51 Comments ||
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#39
Back in my highschool, nine years or so ago, I was alone in my classroom to defend both Israel and Jews as a whole from accusations of mass conspiracy and whatever. In Greek political forums I've been again often the sole voice defending Israel.
So, thank you, but I neither need nor am I intimidated by your moronic kindergarten disputes of where I stand. People who know me, know me. Idiots who don't have called me either an Israeli agent or an antisemite, either a communist or a capitalist tool. Whatever.
Some of *your* best friends are genocidal maniacs, I'm sure.
#40
I'm takin' my toys and going home. It's getting a lit'le rough in here.
Thought we were at the bowl game, US vs UN.....
But, it got to be player against player.
Anyway, still glad Duyba is sending brother Jeb to the Aisa!!! He brings some experiences the UN can never offer.
#41
When you include corporate and charitable gifts, I'd guess you'll come out around 50-60% US, 15-20% Japan and every other nation below 4% of the total.
Actually at the moment the UK is the biggest doner to the cause, putting in £50 million (around $100 million US). The US government has pleged $35 million. Sorry patriots, time for the US to play catch-up.
The American aid figure for the current disaster is now $35 million, and we applaud Mr. Bush's turnaround. But $35 million remains a miserly drop in the bucket, and is in keeping with the pitiful amount of the United States budget that we allocate for nonmilitary foreign aid. According to a poll, most Americans believe the United States spends 24 percent of its budget on aid to poor countries; it actually spends well under a quarter of 1 percent.
Mr. Powell pointed to disaster relief and said the United States "has given more aid in the last four years than any other nation or combination of nations in the world." But for development aid, America gave $16.2 billion in 2003; the European Union gave $37.1 billion. In 2002, those numbers were $13.2 billion for America, and $29.9 billion for Europe.
Making things worse, we often pledge more money than we actually deliver. Victims of the earthquake in Bam, Iran, a year ago are still living in tents because aid, including ours, has not materialized in the amounts pledged.
#43
WA - You're obviously not including Pfizer, Merck, JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup etc etc etc.
Have you read the posts above? Again, the point here is that the US private sector is bizarrely, perversely, not included in tallies like yours. Once you include the US private sector the picture gets lopsided in a hurry.
#44
Utter crap from the NYT, which ought to know better-- this time of year they run ads all over their paper for their own private charity, the "Neediest Cases" or somesuch fund.
read the Chris Muir cartoon: the US private sector donates $34 BILLION each year, nearly as much as the entire EU contribution.
#46
the US private sector donates $34 BILLION each year, nearly as much as the entire EU contribution.
Of course. And i'm not for one moment calling the US people as private individuals stingy, far from it, so please don't take offence.
However your point seems to imply that the EU private sector / individuals don't contribute anything, which is of course a fallacy. Infact its the private individuals and companies in the UK that forced the UK government to up its contribution.
Shortly before the government announced it was tripling its contribution, the amount of money promised to the Disasters Emergency Committee, a grouping of a dozen leading British charities, had passed the £20m mark. By last night it was clear that more than £30m had already been promised or given. The appeal is expected to break all records.
#48
What about those 2 carrier groups of US Navy and Marines, that involves thousands of American military? Don't think that amount is calculated in that $35 million.
Or, would folks from NYT's, UN... etc. be happier if we just pretended they weren't there, arn't going there, and will do nothing?
So we all sit around till Kofi's Jan 6 meeting, waiting with extreme anticipation for his directions of how much and where, we direct our money, our resources, our talents and our desire to help out these folks.
Not on Bush's watch. This is just not who we are.... We give, our Navy, Marines, Air Force and Army are there.... our private American dollars are rolling in.... cause that is who we are...
Now, get off our backs.. let us do what we do best, in the ways that we do it best.
You want money? Speak to our "oil" producing countries. Where are their contributions? Haven't heard a word from them. But yet, Israel ... read LGF if you haven't heard all that they are already doing, even with Indo saying "NO" we don't want your help....
Get real.... This pettyness that has been brewing for the last year... well, I'm just about at the point, I want to say, "let's take our toys and go home."
Wonder how the rest of the world would exist if that happened?
#49
Bully for the Brits. Good on them etc. I remain skeptical that Britain's private contribution will be more than a small fraction of the US private contribution. I would estimate that the US private contribution here will be north of $1.5 billion, probably closer to $3B. I doubt Britain's private sector will provide more than 1/15th that amount.
#50
It's amazing how the only people making a big deal about monetary percentages are the ones that aren't receiving the aid. I'll bet that the recipient countries don't give a rat's ass about percentages.
#51
I doubt Britain's private sector will provide more than 1/15th that amount.
Perhaps. But i'm guessing that the EU private contribution (by sheer weight of numbers) will be higher in the end. But we can wait for those figures. For the moment its nice to see some international concensus, its been a while.
#54
Speak to our "oil" producing countries. Where are their contributions?
Source: Reuters
RIYADH, Dec 28 (Reuters) - Oil-rich Saudi Arabia pledged on Tuesday a $10 million aid package to victims of the tsunami disaster in Asia...
Neighbouring Gulf country Kuwait has pledged a little over $2 million in aid. The United Arab Emirates will donate 30 tonnes of food, blankets and clothing to the victims.
#55
It'd also be nice if the reality of US largesse were acknowledged for once.
I don't think it's ever seriously in doubt. But sometimes the huge contributions made by EU countries are overlooked, even though when taken together they add up to as much.
And yes yes we're all very greatful for you saving our ass in WWII ok? :)
The UN would be well-advised to put someone else out front - and shuffle Egeland to the doghouse. His face and his mouth offend just by appearance or citation.
The US, Australia, Japan and India have formed an international coalition to lead aid efforts after the Indian Ocean sea surges, the US president has said. Mr Bush said the giant waves that swept ashore in 11 countries had brought loss and grief almost beyond comprehension. The US has already pledged $35m and sent its navy to help the aid effort. But the United Nations estimates that five million people need help to survive, while the total number of dead is put at more than 80,000. While relief supplies are arriving, remote communities are in desperate need of aid. UN relief co-ordinator Jan Egeland said it would take at least another two or three days to begin to respond properly to "the tens of thousands of people who would like to have assistance today - or yesterday." ... No shit, ass-polisher, as if you know dick about deprivation or devastation. Now STFU, worm.
Posted by: .com ||
12/30/2004 1:56:39 AM ||
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#1
I'd still like to beat Egeland to a bloody pulp.
#4
How about Democratic Alliance for the Pacific Century? Japan India Australia (and Britain) are the major partners for us in smashing jihadism and containing China. Very promising, and far more important than NATO.
Posted by: Steve White ||
12/30/2004 12:06:05 AM ||
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#1
Two things to watch: US savings levels and Asian banks' treasuries purchases. If the former does not rise over the next two years, and if the latter decline significantly during the same period, then we're in trouble. But if Americans increase savings and the asians continue to finance our imports of their goods (by buying our debt), then it's not we but the Euroland nations that will face a very rough landing in the immediate term. Pity the Germans especially.
#2
At some point, however, it's quite obvious that this nation will have to consume less (esp imports) and save more. A nation in which more than half the population has negative savings is not likely to remain a hegemon indefinitely. That condition can persist only so long as (primarily) foreign lenders finance American consumer debt-- a dependency that's nearly as dangerous as our oil addiction.
#4
bingo. Buy American or semi-American where you can. If you have to have a German car, consider one made by DaimlerChrysler (love my 300C Hemi and my Pacifica, recommend 'em highly).
And buy less junk overall. Save more, invest more. Here's hoping Bush's economic agenda has this goal above all others.
#5
I'm doing my tiny part. But I have to admit it's damed hard to find anything small (naturally low-priced), such as kitchen stuff, that isn't made in China. Cheeses the hell out of me to go to 3 different stores, wasted time and gas, trying to outfit my kitchen with stuff that didn't come out of a friggin' Chinese prison.
#6
And buy less junk overall. Save more, invest more. Eat out less, greens are good for you, it wouldn't hurt for you to call your mother, when the last time you washed the car yourself? Does anyone really need this many books? Gym? Hey go out and mow the grass with a scythe.
Posted by: Your Dad ||
12/30/2004 13:25 Comments ||
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#7
:-)
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/30/2004 13:26 Comments ||
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#8
Yes Dad, you're right. Spend more on books and blogs; cut off all MSM subscriptions. Maybe a 3,500 sq ft house instead of a 5,000 sq ft one. Travel within the US instead of to Europe.
#9
I read an article recently on some reputable site or other, that the U.S. savings rate is severely miscalculated. As I recall (and please remember that I am practically financially illiterate) the rate is calculated by subtracting gross national spending from gross national income. This does not, however, take into account investments such as home purchases (which are intially high debt:low equity), home improvement spending (which increases the value of the investment), monies laid out to acquire stocks, bonds, etc (which look like a wash to those doing the gross calculation, yet are not spent on consumables, throw off income over time, and provide a low-cost source of funds for the involved corporations) and, finally, the tremendous sums held in IRAs, 401Ks and pension funds.
Ultimately, the American economy is the most efficient in the world at circulating money, thus enabling us to accomplish a great deal more with a given amount than anyone else. And, the real savings rate, that is that part of the economic pie held by individuals for their future benefit, is good deal larger than it looks.
I would appreciate it if one of you financial types would check up on this and explain it properly... as I said, I am practically financially illiterate (much to Mr. Wife's despair, as he would love to be able to turn all that stuff over to me, and just do his job in peace, poor darling!)
#11
I agree with you trailing wife. In the last 30 years, the US has almost completely changed from a debt to an ownership society. Folks don't put their money in savings accounts for little or no interest anymore. They put their savings into mutual funds, 401K's, other securities, and real estate.
The traditional banks have been the big losers in this transformation. So they lead the chorus every year about how the US savings rate is too low. The US banks compare us to big bank savers like Japan (stagnant economy) and Europe (stagnant economy) and lecture John Q. Public on how he should invest more in them and less in Microsoft.
I don't feel too sorry for the banks though. Like the tobacco companies, they have shifted their activities offshore, finding plenty of investors in the stagnant economies mentioned above. Meanwhile, they still have plenty of high quality assets in the form of mortgages and other notes that they hold here in the US.
Maybe I'm wrong, but the financial pundits have been predicting the downfall of the US economy for some time now and yet it never happens. There must be some other mechanism at work that has replaced the classical economic theory with its central assumption of high bank savings providing the capital for economic growth.
I mowed the front lawn with a push mower when I was a kid. Never had a problem with it then, don't have a problem with it now. The catch is that I can't afford to buy a house around here with a lawn to mow. :)
#15
The problem is that the Japanese work much harder than we do, use "quality circles" to make decisions and are buying key US properties as a result of their incredible economic growth -- oh, sorry, wrong decade..
Posted by: Matt ||
12/30/2004 20:17 Comments ||
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#16
The really fun part of this is that the Chinese currency (RenMinBi (RMB), generally pronounced Yuan in written form) is tied pegged to the US dollar. Imagine what the result would be in this country if Chinese goods were suddenly 30% - 40% cheaper than they already are. Now, think what the smug Europricks that run the EU are facing. Not only are their goods priced out of the US market, but Chinese goods will wipe them out in their domestic markets. All in all, I'd rather have our problems than theirs.
Somehow, I just knew it would turn out to be all our fault...
International ocean monitors predicted that a tsunami would likely follow the deadly earthquake that hit the Indian Ocean on Sunday. But they didn't know who to inform. "We put out a bulletin within 20 minutes, technically as fast as we could do it," said Jeff LaDouce, an official in the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. LaDouce noted that they e-mailed Indonesian officials, but said that he wasn't aware what happened after they sent the e-mails.
The Pacific Tsunami Warning Center is an international system of monitoring stations stationed in Hawaii. It monitors the Pacific and warn nearby countries of any expected disasters. But the problem with Sunday's deadly earthquake is that the Indian Ocean isn't guarded by such systems. The Atlantic Ocean isn't monitored because there are comparatively few earthquakes there. LaDouce said that there are plans to establish a warning system in the Caribbean after a volcanic collapse on the island of Montserrat resulted in a tsunami last year.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/30/2004 00:00:00 ||
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#1
Old news. The head guy was interview shortly after it happened. Expect the MSM to harp on it how we were evil and hid it.
#3
Seismologists much closer to the scene, in India, Sri Lanka, and Thailand, could have predicted the tsunami at least as easily as the Americans. There was a report from Thailand that officials received a timely warning, but refused to issue an alert for fear of endangering the tourist trade if it turned out to be a false alarm.
In Vienna, the data streaming into the headquarters of the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty Organization, which operates the best seismic monitoring center in the world, went unnoticed because the center's 300 employees were on vacation.
#7
No prob. Of course the color and shading was not meant to be representative of the actual height of waves, I don't think (rather, the energy generated). But it sure looks like Sri Lanka and Thailand got clobbered. I thought Sumatra would be more affected by the waves than Thailand.
Posted by: Rafael ||
12/30/2004 2:00 Comments ||
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#8
Notice the "wrap-around effect", as I call it. For instance, the entire coast of Sri Lanka was hit.
Posted by: Rafael ||
12/30/2004 2:02 Comments ||
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#9
Subsea and surface topography plus energy determine everything in tsunamis. There was a documentary about a year ago, one of the first things I saw after getting back to the US, about a tsunami from a subsea landslide off Japan. One island in Northeastern Indonesia had a nearly perfectly round island about .5 km offshore between it and the tsunami's source. Instead of blocking the wave, creating a shadow the width of the island, what happened was the wave followed the island contour around on both sides and accelerated and where the wave met on the backside corresponded to the hardest-hit spot on the island behind. Fluid dynamics does not follow intuition...
#10
Interesting stuff, scientifically speaking, but on the humanistic level...
I saw a picture of a Swedish boy holding a sign saying "Missing parents and 2 brothers". That one got me.
Posted by: Rafael ||
12/30/2004 2:34 Comments ||
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#11
Ya know, it must really suck to work in that NOAA office right now. They knew, they tried to do something, but.. could only watch helplessly as tens of thousands died beyond their reach.
Yuck.
#12
The earth moved 100feet at the epicenter. This compares to 18 feet at the 1906 SF earthquake.
Think of the earth's tectonic plate as a paddle moving 100 feet in nearly an instant under water and pushing that much water in one direction. That's a lot of energy. And that's why Sumatra gets spared. It's not like a bomb being dropped.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
12/30/2004 8:05 Comments ||
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#13
"but refused to issue an alert for fear of endangering the tourist trade"
Since an alert was NOT issued, I am not in fear anymore. Since everything is just peachy over there and the failure of an alert did not endanger the tourist trade, I think I hop on the next plane right away.
I heard the same story about a day ago. If this is true, it doesn't surprise me at all. On a normal day these tsunami affected governments could care less about its citizens, what makes anyone think a catastrophe will do otherwise.
#14
The phenomenon is called refraction. Tsunamis are indeed waves and refract like other waves (a good example is how a straw in water will look displaced due to refraction of light). In addition to refraction there are also other wave phenomena such as interference. In constructive interference (see .com's example), waves are amplified. In destructive interference, waves are cancelled out.
#17
Knew about the tsunami? Of course the US did, as did ever person in the damn world who ever studied geology or even read a book where geology was mentioned. Tsunamis after earthquakes are friggin normal. I told my wife right after hearing about the quake there'd be tidal waves.
Maybe these morons should just blame me for not calling up the Sri Lankan embassy.
Or, better yet, these countries should each buy one less crappy Russian fighter plane next year and invest in a warning network. Something high tech, like say, telephones and radios.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
12/30/2004 11:20 Comments ||
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#18
What Laurence said. Nothing has caused more third world deaths and more misery than the callous incompetence of third world kleptocratic regimes. Had any of these nations even had the most basic early warning system, tens of thousands of lives would have been spared.
Posted by: Howard Dean ||
12/30/2004 20:31 Comments ||
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#23
Something to think about the next time you go on vacation
Indeed. Not that there will be another tsunami, but there are a thousand things that can go wrong on a trip. Why bother visiting third world kleptocracies?
Venezuela plans talks with Panama next week on a proposal to pump oil through a Panamanian pipeline to the Pacific in order to cut shipping costs to China, the Venezuelan foreign minister said Wednesday. Foreign Minister Ali Rodriguez denied that new agreements signed last week to sell Venezuelan oil to China are part of any strategy to decrease oil exports to the United States, the No. 1 buyer of Venezuelan crude.
#1
LOL! Makes perfect sense. Let's see.... a pipeline thru Columbia.... or ship it to Panama then thru a pipeline to another tanker... Wait! I know! Just in time delivery of crude to the PRC! We'll use great big airliners! Like 747s only biggers and carrying oil! It will bring China closer!
#3
Sounds like the same pipeline near David,Panama that was built by MK.Can't remember if they can heat the oil or not.But it handled Alaskan crude,and most tankers have heating coils.
#4
The Trans-Panama pipeline (Petroterminal de Panama, S.A.) is located outside the former Canal Zone near the Costa Rican border, and runs from the port of Charco Azul on the Pacific Coast (near Puerto Armuelles, southwest of David) to the port of Chiriqui Grande, Bocas del Toro on the Caribbean. It was opened in October 1982 as an economical alternative to the Panama Canal for transporting Alaskan oil across Panama en route to Gulf Coast ports. More than 2.7 billion barrels of Alaskan crude oil were transported through the 81-mile pipeline at peak rates exceeding 860,000 bbl/d. However, the pipeline was closed in April 1996 after Alaskan oil shipments to the Gulf Coast declined with falling Alaskan oil production and increased oil consumption on the west coast of the United States, especially in California. In addition, the decision to allow Alaskan oil to be exported outside the United States reduced the incentives to ship Alaskan oil to the Gulf Coast. The Trans-Panama pipeline re-opened in November 2003, and began shipping over 100,000 bbl/d of Ecuadorian crude oil to US Gulf ports.
Quick thinking by Kenyan officials may have saved hundreds of lives after the navy, police and ports authority instituted emergency precautions before tsunamis hit the east African coast. The official death toll in eastern Africa stood at 123 last night but is expected to rise significantly once rescue workers reach isolated parts of Somalia, where entire towns and villages are said to have been submerged. Only three people died in Kenya, one of whom is believed to be a western tourist, according to the Kenya Ports Authority. Kenya was able to react before disaster struck, an extraordinary fact given the reputation for inefficiency that most public services in the country have. "Our marine specialists were monitoring satellite images from the Indian Ocean so we knew we were likely to feel the after-effects," said a spokesman for the Kenyan navy. "We were then able to co-ordinate with the police, and the ports and harbours."
They had a little more lead time to get the word out, but still they did a good job.
An emergency centre, mobilised in the past for oil spills and ferry disasters, was quickly manned and radio messages were sent out to commercial fishing vessels and ships off the coast. "Our first priority was to get all boats out at sea into port," said Captain Twalib Hamisi, the ports authority's chief of operations. "Many of the smaller fishing boats don't have radios but we were able to get a word-of-mouth chain going both north and south." The main concern for officials was not so much from tsunamis, but from abnormal currents that would have sucked swimmers and boats out to sea. Three-metre waves did crash over beaches, destroying properties and boats. Hippopotamuses in inland rivers were dragged eight kilometres out to sea. The police force was also mobilised, clearing more than 10,000 people off public beaches on Boxing Day, the busiest day of the year when Kenyans from around the country flock to the coast. Many, fortified by alcohol and fuelled by scepticism, refused to leave until they were cajoled by riot police.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/30/2004 10:40:07 AM ||
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#1
Sounds as though the Kenyans did a better job of coordinating things than anyone else, though I'm not sure about the wisdom of some of the advice. Vessels out at sea were better off staying there than returning to the coast. Sending police to clear the beaches was an excellent move.
"Hippopotamuses in inland rivers were dragged eight kilometres out to sea."
Ahem. What was that about our four-legged friends and their infallable sixth sense?
#2
I'd be willing to bet this came down to one guy sizing up the situation and having the balls to make a call. Since when does anything get done quickly by an African government?
#3
Never thought I'd see "cajoled" and "riot police" in the same sentence. :-D
Good for the Kenyans (except for getting the boats into port so they could be smashed).
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
12/30/2004 12:08 Comments ||
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#4
"What was that about our four-legged friends and their infallable sixth sense?"
Bulldog, could be that hippos are the animal kingdom equivalent of the old lady driving slow in the passing lane with her blinker on. All the smart animals went in one direction, the hippos in the other...
Posted by: Carl in N.H. ||
12/30/2004 16:29 Comments ||
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Beware the lethal combination of alcohol, New Year's Eve revelry and a loaded gun, according to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, which in its latest press release, pointed to the threat posed by "overexcited and under-intelligent" gun owners.
You know who you are
Those people, the Brady Campaign warned, might "welcome 2005 with an act of stupidity," defined in the release as "the indiscriminate unloading of weapons into the air," "ululating", or "muslim wedding" "celebratory gunfire." And "they may kill an innocent in the bargain, too," the anti-gun group stated. However, even the gun control group, Americans for Gun Safety Foundation, found fault Wednesday with the Brady Campaign's use of the words "overexcited and under-intelligent" while referring to gun owners. "I don't think that any gun owners are likely to be persuaded by a press release that effectively calls them stupid," said Casey Anderson, executive director of the Americans for Gun Safety Foundation. "I certainly think that people ought to be careful how they handle and store their guns. But I doubt that a release of this type of tone is likely to persuade many people to take this advice seriously," Anderson added.
"It looks great on the Brady Center fundraising materials though."
Anderson said he suspects the Brady Campaign wasn't really aiming to "engage the audience of people who might do something irresponsible with their firearms. It's more aimed at people who are already convinced that guns are bad," he said.
And overly-excitable and under-intelligent Congresscritters.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/30/2004 8:41:09 AM ||
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#1
I got a feeling most of the folks blasting away at the sky tomorrow night could even read their press release anyways.
But it was nice of them to consider all gun owners as borderline Neanderthals...
#6
parts of L.A. are using it too - triangulating the sound intensity to pinpoint the shots. Trick is to shoot simultaneously from different locations....haven't figgered that out yet...
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/30/2004 11:04 Comments ||
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#7
The idea of shooting off guns on New Years Eve never occurred to me. Firecrackers, yes, but not guns.
But I've got a pile of guns, and over 6,000 rounds of ammo.
And now, thanks to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, I have an idea.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
12/30/2004 11:29 Comments ||
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#8
I fowgot my gun since I kilt the wabbit. Tanks fow weminding me!
I think the "under-intelligence" here is at the Brady Center to Steal Our Guns So We'll Be All Victims Of Criminals AND The Government, Just Like In Britain.
(Very long title for their organization; think I'll just shorten it to "BARF")
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
12/30/2004 12:19 Comments ||
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#10
Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, formerly Hand Gun Control Inc. Changed it's name since it was so discredited.
My nephew the policeman told me the P.D. he works for will NOT be responding to "shots fired" on New Years unless someone is actually hit. Most of the guys will be holed up under underpasses as not to get hit.
Those shot detection things work really well when tracking one or two shots from the same location but are useless against the many on New Years in some areas.
These Hand Gun Control people piss off my wife so much she joined the California Rifle and Pistol association and she doesn't even shoot.
#11
San Francisco is trying to pass an ordinance that would prevent folks from having guns in SF. I understand the state has a law against such local ordinances. Should be interesting to see what happens. Personally, I think such silly ass ordinances do nothing other than ensure the bad guys are armed and the honest citizens not. Washington, DC has a very high murder rate and they have laws against citizens having guns. The naivete of the gun control people always astounds me.
The pharmaceutical industry endured a disastrous 2004, and the aftermath will linger into the new year. Regulators at the Food and Drug Administration already were expected to take a more cautious approach about new drug approvals in the wake of Merck & Co.'s withdrawal from the market of its pain reliever Vioxx because it doubled patients' risk of heart attack and strokes.
Pressure on the FDA increased at year's end when Pfizer Inc. announced that a study of its pain drug Celebrex showed it had similar problems at high doses. The two products are in the same class of drugs, known as cox-2 inhibitors.
Questions linger about whether Merck muzzled negative news about Vioxx in order to keep selling the drug. But the combination of problems with Vioxx and Celebrex is certain to raise more questions about the safety of the drugs sold in the United States.
Drug makers already are struggling with growing generic competition and lackluster prospects for new medicines now in the pipeline. Some analysts think further industry consolidation is likely because expense reductions resulting from mergers may be the key to increasing earnings at a time when revenues are stagnating. "This has been a tough year, largely of [the drug companies'] own making," said Dr. Catherine D. DeAngelis, editor in chief of the Journal of the American Medical Association. "Drug companies were not as honest and forthright as we expect them to be."
Posted by: .com ||
12/30/2004 2:20:18 AM ||
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#1
What I want to know is, what with all the hoopla and fear generated from this lack of flu vaccine, why the hell hasn't the government demanded large scale production facilities? Seriously, this disease kills on average between 15K-100K Americans every year, and we're facing a killer flu that could kill 10-20 MILLION AMERICANS. Shouldn't somebody be doing something?
#2
# 1 Yes, the government plays too big of a role in the rx industry and that is a BIG part of the problem. Pricing, availablity (going to Canada)
Dr. Catherine DeAngelis sums it up nicely.
Andrea
Posted by: ANdrea ||
12/30/2004 11:59 Comments ||
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#4
Big Pharma's both too big and not big enough. They're caught in a vise between:
a) huge and escalating drug development costs that require the financial resources provided by mega-mergers
b) the stifling of creativity and focus regarding drug research that post-merger behemoths invariably encounter
Sister Helen Prejean is a woman on a mission, and that mission is to abolish the death penalty.
Are we going to work on abolishing the commission of murder, then, Sister Helen?
"I've walked out of that execution chamber six times after watching the state kill a human being. I was filled with outrage, anger and despair that I was powerless to stop it," she said. "And what I do is, I write and I become a witness. Because until the American people understand this, we're going to keep doing this (executing people).
Hopefully just as long a murderers continue murdering people.
"When I wrote 'Dead Man Walking,' I was confronting all those things: What do you do with your grief? What do you do with your sense of anger? What do you do with your sense of hopelessness? You make your grief active. Who was it -- Mother Jones? -- who used to say, 'Don't mourn, organize!' "
Being disorganized, I mourn the innocents bumped off by the vicious. It's my opinion that humanely putting the vicious down like dogs does society a considerable amount of good.
#2
Life is hard when you are a sister in the order of St Pancake I guess.
She could be productive helping the families of these murdering bastards victims but she made her choice. She is a loser just like the evil scum she has sided with. If there was no death peanalty she would be railing against life sentences. Then we could be like Europe where murders get a actual 15 year sentence at most. People like this are revolting.
#3
The author of this drivel is the local book editor for the Times-Picayune. Beyond sucking up to Ann Rice and shilling for trash like this, I'm not really sure what her qualifications are.
Note the commment on Dobie Gillis, Prejean's case is not that the guy is innocent but that the Supreme Court changed the rules two years later.
The story also states that Prejean notes that she is opposed in her 'crusade' by her dedication of the book to some microscopic anti-death penalty victims group.
The fact that she quotes Mother Jones tells me all I need to know about Helen Prejean.
#4
"When I wrote 'Dead Man Walking,' I was confronting all those things: What do you do with your grief? What do you do with your sense of anger? What do you do with your sense of hopelessness?
Jeez, I don't know, sister.
Why don't you ask the loved ones of these maggot's victims? Maybe they figured out how to deal with it? But I doubt it.
#5
It's one thing to be against the death penalty, but another to direct all your sympathy towards those who are murderers rather than their victims. Remember "do not murder"? Funny things those Ten Commandments.
#6
Dobie Gillis got the death penalty? I mean, the show wasn't all that good, but . . . isn't that still a bit harsh? Nobody got the death penalty for My Mother the Car or Me and the Chimp or Thicke of the Night or Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire or . . . .
Posted by: Mike ||
12/30/2004 10:16 Comments ||
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#7
Abolishing the death penalty? Why not? But when a ten years old girl is raped and killed by a guy who had already done the same thing and was released (like in Europe) then I am all for putting a dozen liberals on the electric chair. The _first_ duty of the state is not to be lenient towards criminals but to protect the innocent. Those who endanger child lives with their poseur attitudes have to pay for it.
#9
It's one thing to be against the death penalty, but another to direct all your sympathy towards those who are murderers rather than their victims.
I have zero sympathy for murderers and could not care less if they're executed. I am also foursquare against the death penalty. Innocent people are executed in this country every year, an outrage that will continue so long as we have incompetent defenders and judges. In other words, forever. There is utterly no justification for killing the innocent-- not deterrence (the death penalty has no deterrent effect) or justice (one innocent life taken outweighs a thousand Jeffrey Dahmer monsters justly killed). This is not a "liberal" position any more than standing up for due process and against an overbearing or tyrannical state is. Conservatives should be against the death penalty as well.
The death penatly is a sham that allows incompetent politicians to pretend they're doing something about crime. A freak show whose unintended but inevitable consequence is the execution of innocent people every year in this country. Shameful, scandalous: piss on our cowardly politicians for not having the guts to put an end to this scam.
#10
Lex, what about the innocent lives taken by the one thousand Jeffrey Dahmer you release? How nice to play liberal when what is at stake is the lives of other people's children.
#11
Lock them up for life. Sorry but there's absolutely no reason to permit the execution of innocent people. The point's not leniency for Dahmer or Mumia or whoever-- I couldn't care less about such scum-- but about the obscure people who are wrongly convicted and executed every year. It happens, it's disgusting, it should shame every one of us. This is simply not a liberal or conservative issue. Which perhaps is why none of our politicians will show any courage on the matter.
#12
fwiw my position is NOT at all the same as that of those euro-hyenas who scream every time a truly guilty, truly monstrous killer is executed. Those executions are just acts. The point is that our process is always going to be flawed and prone to error, especially as regards obscure impoverished defendants of sub-standard intelligence, and therefore we will continue to kill utterly blameless citizens along with the monsters.
It is infuriating that this issue has been poisoned by the idiocies of both the Howard Stern-type geekshow touts and the euro/Sister Prejean "save 'em all" types. The goal is to save the innocents, period. And the only way to ensure that is to imprison the monsters for life.
#13
A small semantics adjustment, if you please...
Y'know, the claim that innocent people are executed every year strikes me as exaggeration and embroidery. Innocent people have been executed, yes, but saying it happens every year as fact requires substantiation. I do not believe you -- and everything else you said hinges upon this being fact.
Now if you said it has happened before (fact) and, given human nature, it will happen again, and thus I am against it - you'd have a foursquare argument.
Lock them up for life? Fine. But did you know that in Europe there is no real life sentence because they consider that this would put the guards in danger? (Ie the inmate has nothing more to fear). If you can keep them in prison AND keep the guards safe, I am for it but if you can't then you atre playing with other people's lives.
Another test for your theory. You capture a major terrorrist and you keep it locked for life. But while in jail he prozelitizes and instructs people who are not sentenced for life and who, when released will cause hundreds or even thousands of people. What are you going to do? Or will you have the nerve to tell to the parents of the victims that all is well as long as you didn't dirty your hands with the terrorist's blood?
#16
As I say, I have nothing in common with the euro approach, which is equally absurd.
As to terrorists, why would you execute them? We should interrogate them for all the information we can get. They're worth far more to us alive than dead.
.com, I don't know at what number your moral calculus begins to operate. Amnesty reports that the ratio of those convicted and executed to those falsely convicted and sentenced to death (but not executed) is 6:1. Other sources say the ratio is 8:1. Either way, there have been something on the order of 600-800 executions since 1976 and about 100 death row inmates found to be innocent and released during that same time.
At least 1%, and probably several times more, of all US death sentences imposed since 1972 have been imposed on people who were innocent of the crime.
Amnesty notes:
"Remedying these hideous mistakes (for the innocents who were released from death row) took anywhere from two to 22 years; many of these innocent people came within hours of execution.The true number of innocent people condemned and then released is undoubtedly higher. When a capital conviction is overturned, prosecutors will frequently offer a sentence of 'time served' in return for a guilty plea. The defendant thus "admits" their guilt as the price of their freedom, rather than face further incarceration, another trial and the possibility of a new death sentence. It is likely that a large number of defendants who enter guilty pleas following reversal were not guilty of the crime for which they were originally convicted."
#17
Note that this is not my or any outsider's subjective opinion as to innocence; this is the state itself admitting that it f**ked up and reversing the sentence for a convicted death row inmate. And again, those whom the state proclaims innocent and mistakenly convicted-- Amnesty says 72 such cases since 1976, others say it's higher-- are a subset of all those midtakenly convicted. The real number of innocents who have passed through or are still on death row during the last thirty years is undoubtedly in the hundreds. That's a national disgrace.
Again, this isn't a liberal or a conservative issue. It's about citizens opposing the monstrous deprivation by the state of a free citizen's most fundamental right imaginable, his right to live.
#19
Lex, don't play stupid please. By the time they are sentenced the terrorist has been interrogated and all info extracted. All he is doing is sitting in his cell and proselitizing. Then his pupils kill and it is YOUR fault for allowing him to live. Or are you willing to keep it in complete isolation for life?
#22
I'm not. DNA proof? check. Habeas Appeal? check. stick the needle.
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/30/2004 18:20 Comments ||
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#23
I think this whole "lethal injection" thing is just plain wrong. Too neat, too clinical, too gentle. Electric chair--now, that's more like it. (I prefer hanging, myself, but then I always was a little old-fashioned.)
Posted by: Mike ||
12/30/2004 18:33 Comments ||
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#25
By the time they are sentenced the terrorist has been interrogated and all info extracted. All he is doing is sitting in his cell and proselitizing.
Not in my jail, he doesn't.
-- superintendent, Federal Bureau of Prisons, Marion, IL
Posted by: Steve White ||
12/30/2004 18:42 Comments ||
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#26
No Frank it is: DNA proof? check. Habeas Appeal? check. pull trigger BLAM.
It's cheap and efficent and it can't be proved that it's cruel or unusual.
#27
In certain cases, I wouldn't mind them being kicked to death by the victim's family. I just thought we were operating under today's rules :-)
Now if King Frank ruled.....
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/30/2004 18:49 Comments ||
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#28
Well, how about Dead Victim Not Walking? Who is to speak for all the victims brutalized by the criminals? Where are their rights? Screw the murderers. Let them answer for their crimes.
#29
Sanctimonious reply, lex. If you re-read, I was offering an accurate and defensible alternative statement for your position - with no judgement of the position itself implied.
#30
>Amnesty reports that the ratio of those convicted<
I doubt AI is a trustworthy source. Amnesty International (Permanently Blinded in the Left Eye) long ago lost my respect and support with their constant battering of the USA as opposed to the the horrors perpetuated by the Soviet Union, Cuba, et. al. They're like any other left wing NGO; i.e.- it's easier and more profitable to go after the west than the monsters in the east. They're no better than Helen Prejean's empty empathism.
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
Moving to further centralize the communist state's control over the economy, the government's Central Bank announced Thursday that individual state companies would no longer handle foreign exchange. Beginning Saturday a single government account will be established for foreign currency and for convertible Cuban pesos, an exchangeable currency that trades 1-1 to the U.S. dollar and that is now used as the primary form of legal tender on the island. Under a series of steps to be introduced in the coming months, state enterprises will relinquish control over foreign exchange and convertible Cuban peso accounts. Any profits from sales or services will have to be deposited into that single government account. The move will severely limit any remaining autonomy inside the various state enterprises. It will also effectively turn back an earlier government policy calling for state enterprises to move toward self-financing by pouring earned foreign income back into their operations. Also, a state company that now wishes to buy any goods or services available only in foreign currency will need special approval from a new Foreign Exchange Approval Committee. The announcement was the latest in a series of moves in recent months aimed at reasserting government control over the economy in general, and over foreign currency income in particular.
Sister Helen Prejean is a woman on a mission, and that mission is to abolish the death penalty. 
