Posted by: Howard UK ||
01/05/2005 06:02 ||
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#1
The clippers made me snicker.
Amazing to see how pitiful these guys can be once they go from the jail to the mosque.
And couldn't he use the hook to cut them - oh, that's right, they took it away. Poor wittle guy . . .
Posted by: The Doctor ||
01/05/2005 10:38 Comments ||
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#2
As if this guy wasn't disgusting enough already. It's probably the only truthful statement this joker has made in years-his toenails probably are so yellow, long, and hard (enough to cut glass) that he can't even walk. Bet his wives haven't been within 'feet' of him for years!
North Korea has set up a new war plan that calls for more underground protection facilities to prepare for a possible U.S. attack on the communist country, South Korean intelligence officials said Wednesday. The 33-page military document, signed by North Korean leader Kim Jong Il in April last year and issued nationwide, also urges the country to be ready to fully mobilize troops, civilians and any other possible resources within 24 hours after war breaks out, according to the National Intelligence Service officials. The South Korean spy agency verified the North's wartime guidelines, which were unveiled by South Korea's Kyunghyang Shinmun newspaper earlier that day, saying the new war plan put priority on a defense posture rather than the previous offense-oriented war scenario.
It is the first time that details of the North's wartime plan have been made public in South Korea, officials said. Analysts in Seoul say the North's new defensive war plan reflects Pyongyang's security fears in the wake of the U.S.-led war on Iraq. "The North's document indicates that the North Korean leadership is fearful about a possible U.S. strike on the communist nation over the nuclear standoff," said Kim Tae-hyun, a professor at Chung-Ang University in Seoul. "The North's wartime guidelines may be an updated version of its previous plans to cope with changed security situations facing the country, such as the war in Iraq," said an official at the Defense Ministry. The "Detailed Wartime Guidelines" was issued April 7, 2004, when North Korea was claiming that it could be the next target of the U.S.-led war against terrorism after Iraq. North Korea has been locked in a standoff with the United States over its nuclear weapons drive since last 2002. When the U.S.-led war started in Iraq in March 2003, Kim Jong Il vanished from public view for six weeks, sparking speculation he was hiding in a bunker for fear of attacks. With Saddam Hussein ousted, North Korea and Iran are the two remaining members of what U.S. President George W. Bush dubbed the "axis of evil." The document was signed by Kim Jong Il in his capacity as chairman of the Central Military Committee of the ruling Workers' Party, ending speculation over whether Kim has inherited the important post occupied by his father, Kim Il Sung, before his death in 1994. Kim Jong Il is now ruling the reclusive nation in the capacity of the chairman of the National Defense Commission and supreme commander of the People's Army.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Steve ||
01/05/2005 10:49:29 AM ||
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#1
Page 1: Bend over and kiss your ass good-bye.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/05/2005 14:56 Comments ||
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I sense a distinct advantage to naming them "Axis of Evil" and then taking one out. My sense is that the norks decided they really should seriously consider playing defense.
Where they had previously only asked "How can we take South Korea?", they have now asked "How can we hold out against the US?"
The answer is very different, and not terribly pleasant for them.
In my experience, if a problem isn't truly intractable, the key is always just getting the right question asked. The answers almost always follow.
#4
Ditto to what Shipman said. I think the bit about asking the right question came from Aristotle, which only proves that true wisdom never has an expiration date.
#6
Its broadly the same as for the USSR during the Cold War, as for Radical Islam versus Israel -to take Western Europe means milpol defeating the USA, just as to defeat Israel, andor other ME democracies, the USA and NATO must be milpol defeated first or at the same time! The Iraqi "insurgency" is NOT a popular insurgency - it is mostly pro-Saddam DISGUISED ARMY ELEMENTS, SADDAMIST BAATHISTS, and hardline Radical Islamists from inside and mostly outside Iraq. These "insurgents" are fighting in Iraq because, amongst other things, THEY ARE COUNTING ON THE CLINTONS, THE ANTI-AMERICAN COMMUNITY AND UNO, AND COLLUSORY INTERNATIONAL LEFTS TO LEGALLY PROTECT SADDAM AND EVENTUALLY RETURN HIM TO POWER-INFLUENCE IN IRAQ, ESPEC ONCE AMERICA IS SUBORNED UNTO SOCIALISM AND OWG, ANDOR DESTROYED! IRAQ = IRAN = SYRIA = NORTH KOREA = ... in that these nations' primary response to war with the USA is to tie down US/Allied milfors in PC-incorrect, [nuclearized?] "VIETNAMS" - these Rogues and their PC "People's Wars", where War(s) for [anti-US/WEst/Dem/Capitalism] Global Socialism/OWG = "defense" against alleged US "imperialism" and "aggression", ARE THE ANVIL TO RUSSIA-CHINA'S US-KILLING HAMMER! NO MATTER WHAT PC DIVERSIONARY "INCIDENTS" OCCUR BETWEEN NK AND SK-JAPAN-USA, THE REAL CAMPAIGN/BATTLE FOCII IS DOWN WHERE TAIWAN IS, WHERE US FORCES AREN'T IN STRENGTH! In true Lefty dialecticism-alternatism-alteriorism, the anti-US ME limited wars will be successful "quickies" in favor of the US and US-led occupation, whereas EAST ASIA-POA will be protracted and prob very bloody. AT home, America and her Clinton-alleged Communist- and anti-American American heartland/MidWest have HAIL HILLARY and her O'Reilly-ian DemLeft Betty Crocker/Traitor-crats and anti-Fascist Fascists-for-Communism = Fascistas to contend with while all these are going on! Our warriors are fighting Saddam's army disguised as insurgents, and they will fight Iran or Syria's army disguised as insurgents, and they will fight the Norkies army, et al. disguised as insurgents! FASCISM, includ GLOBAL FASCISM, however temp, = the "NEW COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM" = relabeled by the Failed Left as DE-REGULATED/COMPETITIVE COMMUNISM OR SOCIALISM> is NOT just vestiges amongst others of the CORPORATE-ETHNIC STATE or CORPORATE-ETHNIC SOCIALISM, BUT ALSO CORPORATE-ETHNIC WARFARE, includ but not limited to INTER-/INTRA-CONSUMER WARFARE!? The Left covertly or discreetly acknowledges the superiority of Rightism while overtly-publicly denying it at the same time - you know, secular ethics where one doesn't have to believe in God or morals to tell the truth.
#9
Reflecting further...
The obvious precedent for "Axis of Evil" was "Evil Empire", driving a signal through a known distortion pattern. I've long thought that there was a second precedent as well, namely "I've just signed legislation...". A certain WH staffer has the background to understand the impact of that one, including likely noting the reference by Yeltsin when he actually did the deed (I watched it live, she probably did, too).
In contrast, it seems that the mad mullahs seem to have reacted a bit differently.
Unification Minister Chung Dong-young declared Tuesday that Seoul will stop allowing large groups of North Korean defectors to enter South Korea, saying that government has no desire to undermine the communist country's leadership. ``The North's perception that we are trying to shake the Pyongyang regime by bringing defectors to Seoul is quite different from our policy,'' Chung said during an MBC radio interview. ``We disapprove of the mass defections. There will be no more large-scale arrivals of defectors in Seoul.''
"We got ours; screw 'em."
The remarks drew condemnation from civic groups involved in helping North Koreans flee their communist homeland. Chung's statement came in the wake of the ministry's announcement late last month of measures to tighten the screening of defectors seeking asylum at South Korea's foreign missions. The government also strengthened the monitoring of brokers _ activists who guide defectors in return for commission _ and reduced settlement subsidies for North Koreans arriving in the South. ``We consider the policy of competing with Pyongyang for supremacy between our social systems has already been made redundant,'' Chung said.
North Korea has repeatedly accused Seoul of kidnapping defectors in a bid to destabilize the Pyongyang government. It boycotted scheduled inter-Korean meetings following the airlifting of 468 North Koreans to Seoul from an unidentified Southeast Asian nation in July the largest mass defection to the South yet. Human rights activists said the government is now seeking to appease Pyongyang by reducing the inflow of defectors. ``This is a really bad decision in terms of human rights and saving the lives of North Korean refugees,'' said Kwon Un-kyong, assistant secretary for the Seoul-based Democracy Network Against North Korean Gulag.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Michael ||
01/05/2005 3:14:07 AM ||
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Chung doesn't seem to quite grasp his title of Unification Minister.
Posted by: ed ||
01/05/2005 9:36 Comments ||
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#3
Now you know why Bush has kept the current South Korean goverment at arms length. I'll bet that the current party loses big next time at the polls. Finally, is it any wonder that this is a liberal government turning away starving people to safeguard some dictators fellings.
#4
Unification Minister Chung Dong-young declared Tuesday that Seoul will stop allowing large groups of North Korean defectors to enter South Korea, saying that government has no desire to undermine the communist countryâs leadership.
This is, quite honestly, idiocy of a very high order....
South Korean President Roh Moo-Hyun said Tuesday US President George W Bush had offered to join him on a trip to North Korea, but aides said there was no formal agreement. Reports quoted Roh as saying he made the proposal late last year and Bush answered in the affirmative. Roh made the disclosure in a meeting with his cabinet, according to a pool report of the meeting. Aides to Roh were quick to point out the conversation was informal and casual and there was no suggestion of a formal agreement on either side to travel to the Stalinist state. The casual conversation between the two leaders took place on the sidelines of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Santiago, Chile, last November. Bush will visit South Korea in November to attend the next APEC summit scheduled to take place in the southern port city of Busan. Roh told his cabinet that Bush said he was ready to take time out from Busan to travel north to visit an industrial park for South Korean firms being built in North Korea's border city of Kaesong. "During a standing conversation, I made a suggestion that President Bush and I go to the Kaeseong complex when he comes for APEC (in Busan). President Bush said 'Yes, let's go. If you go I will go'."
Posted by: Fred ||
01/05/2005 00:00:00 ||
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#1
Roh should go first...And lets hope he's not detained during the visit! His immediate status would however implement detente, in a state of Siege!
#2
It should be noted that Mr. Roh speaks no English and Mr. Bush speaks no Korean. I suspect that what we have here is a case of a simple exchange of courtesies in the hallway being blown out of proportion by the Koreans. I really blame the translators used by the Koreans. This will be the third time that they have bungled it rather badly. The first was when President Bush used the term 'this man' when referring to then President Kim Dae-jung during their meeting in Washington in 2001. The Korean press claimed that President Bush was 'talking down' to President Kim, whereas it was clearly understood by EVERYBODY ELSE that the opposite was intended with President Bush's use of the vernacular. This same incompetence by the Korean translators was demonstrated during President Roh's visit to Washington in 2003 when President Bush commented that President Roh was an 'easy' person to deal with. The Korean translators interpretation was that the term 'easy' was to mean 'naively stupid'.
Yeah, ya just gotta love 'em.
Posted by: Michael Sheehan ||
01/05/2005 23:03 Comments ||
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Still not a good as Jimmy Carter's "I lust after your people" (or words to that effect)mis-translation in Poland...
From the Rantburg Diplomacy Desk:
South Korean President Roh Moo Hyun raised eyebrows Tuesday by saying he and U.S. President George W. Bush had casually discussed a joint visit to an industrial park in the North Korean border city of Kaesong this year.
Yeah, me 'n' George were chatting, y'see..."
But presidential spokesman Kim Jong Min later Tuesday downplayed Roh's remarks to Cabinet ministers and vice minister-level officials to mark the New Year at the presidential office, saying they should not be interpreted as an agreement between the two leaders.
"It was more like, y'know, a recipe swap. Did you know that Laura pickles her own kimchee?"
"We are not officially pursuing a visit to Kaesong by the leaders," the spokesman was quoted as saying by Yonhap News Agency.
"Why me, lord, why me?" he added as he took a big swig of soju and buried his head in his hands.
Roh reportedly said that when he met briefly with Bush in a corridor at last November's Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Santiago, he asked Bush to visit Kaesong with him when the U.S. president visits South Korea this coming November for another APEC summit. "President Bush replied that he will do so along with me if I go there," the South Korean president was quoted as saying.
#1
Pray tell, for what purpose? Roh's a stroke-job. I wouldn't accompany him anywhere - especially if it would serve to prop his tranzi ass up at home and puff up his coterie of too-soft too-stupid too-toolish for prime-time huckleberries.
#2
Tell me, Dubya, what happen'd to the ole asses of evil? Ya gonna go ropin' that 'ar Commie Kim? Hear he got some serious wmd buck shot up north, dont cha know.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/05/2005 0:43 Comments ||
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Didn't an ex-diplo just bitch-slap Roh recently? I thought I read it here.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/05/2005 1:34 Comments ||
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Roh probably ambushed George: Who the heck knows where or what Kaesong is. Bush probably thought it was Roh's summer place. You cant keep track of all these funny names.
#6
Well,well...what goes around, comes around! "W" put those 'evil horns' on the Norks, now he's going to have to be the one to yank em off! I see alot of cheese in the corner of his mouth. Let's remember...he apologized to the Chinese exactly the way they wanted him to, to get that EP3 plane back (unassembled of course) and it's crew!!!
#8
. . . presidential spokesman Kim Jong Min later Tuesday downplayed Roh's remarks to Cabinet ministers and vice minister-level officials . . . , saying they should not be interpreted as an agreement between the two leaders.
Translation: Roh shot his mouth off. Sorry, trolls.
Posted by: Mike ||
01/05/2005 6:34 Comments ||
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Roh reportedly said that when he met briefly with Bush in a corridor
#12
It should be noted that Mr. Roh speaks no English and Mr. Bush speaks no Korean. I suspect that what we have here is a case of a simple exchange of courtesies in the hallway being blown out of proportion by the Koreans. I really blame the translators used by the Koreans. This will be the third time that they have bungled it rather badly. The first was when President Bush used the term 'this man' when referring to then President Kim Dae-jung during their meeting in Washington in 2001. The Korean press claimed that President Bush was 'talking down' to President Kim, whereas it was clearly understood by EVERYBODY ELSE that the opposite was intended with President Bush's use of the vernacular. This same incompetence by the Korean translators was demonstrated during President Roh's visit to Washington in 2003 when President Bush commented that President Roh was an 'easy' person to deal with. The Korean translators interpretation was that the term 'easy' was to mean 'naively stupid'.
Yeah, ya just gotta love 'em.
Posted by: Michael Sheehan ||
01/05/2005 22:52 Comments ||
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About 200 Iraqis living in Western Australia have rallied outside the United Nations office in East Perth over being denied the chance to vote in this month's Iraqi election. Postal voting centres in Australia have been limited to Victoria and New South Wales, where most of Australia's Iraqis live. Eligible voters living in WA would have to fly interstate to vote. Protest organiser Ibrahim Al Ab Shawi told the rally that the decision was unfair and urged the UN to reverse it. "It's another way of saying don't vote," he said. "It is a prohibitive process and frustrating actually but we won't accept that."
Posted by: God Save The World ||
01/05/2005 5:10:00 AM ||
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Ask them the following question: "Are you here temporarily, or permanently?"
No sooner had Swiss Muslims launched campaigns to clear stereotypes and enter into dialogues to reach out to the non-Muslim citizens during 2004 than right-wing media and newspapers threw a spanner in the earnest works.
Swiss Muslims, however, remained determined to ride out the storm and demonstrate to the public that they were an integral part of society.
The right-wing, in a nutshell, failed to break their staunch stamina.
Day in and day out, headlines like "The Islamic Terror is Coming, "Country Vs. Radicalism", "Islamists Living With Us," "Hijab in Parliament" and "Swiss Funds for Islamic Terror" were splashed by newspapers.
A recently released study by Zurich University showed that Blick Neue ZÃŒrcher Zeitung, Facts, Le Matin, Le Temps and Welt Woche were among Swiss dailies and magazines that often launched vile campaigns against the Muslim community.
In March, mass-circulation Blick ran a front-page advertisement warning that the steady increase in the Muslim population would turn Switzerland into a Muslim country in 20 years' time.
Despite strong response from Muslim and non-Muslim activists, like Abdel-Hafiz Al-Waridi, the spokesman for the Islamic Cultural Foundation, the vicious campaign continued non-stop.
A month later, the popular Round Show radio news program accused the Islamic Center in Zurich of being a breeding ground for radicalism and religious hatred after its imam Yusuf Ibram described hawkish Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon as "war criminal and a vampire."
The government later placed visa restrictions on imams coming to the country during the holy month of Ramadan except for Al-Azhar missions.
The Swiss radio further tried to pit Muslims against one another when it interviewed in April a veiled woman and another unveiled with the latter launching a sting criticism of hijab to the benefit of the moderator.
In November, a poll conducted by the Sonntagsblick newspaper showed that a clear majority of the Swiss people accepted hijab at workplace.
Furthermore, all hell break loose when Muslims opened their first cemetery in Zurich last June with right-wing newspapers warning that the Muslim minority was penetrating the Swiss society.
The attitude of negativity among the Muslim community toward the media onslaughts is also to blame.
They, however, realized the danger and decided in June to set up a press office to monitor newspapers and media outlets.
They further launched on June 24 a ten-day campaign to reach out to non-Muslims in the capital Geneva.
Intellectuals Targeted
Tariq Ramadan took the brunt of the media attacks
The media offensive was not confined to tarnishing the image of the Muslim community in general, but was further selective in blemishing the reputation of some leading figures.
Tariq Ramadan, a professor of Islamic studies in the University of Fribourg, took the brunt of such campaigns.
"Should We Really Burn Out Tariq Ramadan?" Was one of the headlines splashed by L'Hebdo newspaper on October 28.
Other newspapers called the prominent Muslim intellectual "the prince of dualism," and "the wolf in sheep's clothing."
The ferocious verbal attacks did not even spare Tariq's brother Hani, who is the head of the Geneva Islamic Center.
The rightists unleashed a diatribe against the elder brother following his Le Monde's article in which he defended the adultery punishment enshrined in Shari`ah.
The State Council decided on February 5, 2003 to sack Hani as a teacher of French language.
The Geneva Administrative Court, however, reinstated him in his job in April, deeming the decision as null and void and giving him 5,000 Swiss Francs in compensation.
The right-wing government defied the court's verdict in an unprecedented move, saying it was ready to take the consequences.
Successful Politicians
The Muslim community, in spite of the tough year, were resolved to make their voice heard in society and had a positive political attitude.
Hassan Al-Arabia, the director of the Islamic Library in Kesswil, became in April the first Muslim deputy in the council of the southern city after winning the municipal election.
The Democratic Christian Party (PDC) in Switzerland decided in April to nominate two Muslim women, 20-year-old Nazia Siddiquie, of Pakistani origin, and Turkish-born Kadria Kusa, to stand in the municipal elections.
Though they failed to capture the required percentage of the vote, they fared well in the election.
Islam is the second religion in Switzerland after Christianity. The country is home to 350,000 Muslims representing a sizable 4.5 percent of the country's some eight million people.
Forty-three percent of the Muslim community is of Turkish origin.
Posted by: tipper ||
01/05/2005 8:46:23 AM ||
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A French-Algerian accused of being the computer wizard for an Islamist group suspected of plotting to blow up the U.S. embassy in Paris denied in court on Tuesday that his stock of fundamentalist literature made him a radical.
Guess it all depends on your definition of "radical," doesn't it?
Kamel Daoudi, on trial with five other men suspected of links to al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, said he had texts by bin Laden's right-hand man Ayman al-Zawahiri and other radicals on his computer hard disk because he was curious about them. He also denied receiving military training in Afghanistan.
"Nope. Nope. Wudn't me."
"When someone reads Das Kapital, he is not necessarily a Marxist ... or a terrorist," Daoudi, 30, told the court, adding he sometimes even read extreme right-wing political magazines. "I'm a very curious person."
"Yeah. I'd never seen nobody's hands lopped off."
The prosecution says Daoudi, who has a degree in mechanical engineering, was the computer and logistics expert for the group and kept contact with al Qaeda in Afghanistan.
"No, no! All I did was call out for pizza a few times!"
The suspected group leader Djamel Beghal told the court on Monday he had no links to extremist groups.
"Who? Me? Certainly not!"
The six men face prison sentences of up to 10 years if found guilty of conspiracy to commit an act of terrorism. Two others are on trial charged with illegally residing in France. In September 2002, Daoudi wrote to a French television channel from his prison cell to justify the September 11, 2001 attacks on New York and Washington. But he denied being personally involved in any planned attacks.
"Wudn't me."
Beghal, 39, was extradited to France from the United Arab Emirates in October 2001 after telling police there he had helped plan a foiled suicide attack on the U.S. embassy just off the Champs Elysees in central Paris. The prosecution says Daoudi visited Afghanistan for military training in 2001 but he said the visit was innocent. "Afghanistan was something of a mythical country, a bit like our Promised Land, and I wanted to see what was going on there," he told the court. "I was in a period of much questioning, like Candide in Voltaire's philosophical tale."
Paging Professor Pangloss! He just wanted to see what life was like in the Best of All Possible Worlds™...
According to the prosecution, Daoudi fled to Britain after Beghal was arrested but was detained there and extradited to France in September 2001. British police found the radical texts on his computer after seizing it. Investigators say the suicide bombing was to have been carried out by a former professional soccer player, Tunisian-born Nizar ben Abdelaziz Trabelsi. Trabelsi was sentenced to 10 years in prison by a Brussels court in 2003 for plotting to blow up a NATO military base in Belgium for al Qaeda. Judge Philippe Vandingenen suspended the hearing briefly after a dispute with Daoudi's lawyer Frederic Bellanger, who accused him of trying the defendant for his opinions. "I am not judging you on the basis of ideas but of facts," Vandingenen told Daoudi when he resumed the session.
"Of course, if it was his opinion that he wanted to blow up the Champs Elysees, I guess we can try him on that, too!"
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/05/2005 12:19:30 AM ||
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A French-Algerian accused of being the computer wizard for an Islamist group suspected of plotting to blow up the U.S. embassy in Paris denied in court on Tuesday that his stock of fundamentalist literature made him a radical.
EFL
A new ritual on the American academic scene is the annual conference of the Palestine Solidarity Movement. The PSM is an umbrella organization that connects various U.S. and Canadian groups; its yearly gathering offers an opportunity for the constituent elements to establish a visible presence on a prestigious university campus and plan strategy and tactics for a movement dedicated to delegitimizing the state of Israel. Over the past several years, the convocation has been held at Ohio State, the University of Michigan and the University of California at Berkeley. In October, it was the turn of Duke University.
Duke's president, Richard Brodhead, had only just assumed office last summer when the university announced that it would be hosting the PSM conference in the fall. Because the organizers had followed the proper procedures for mounting such an event, Mr. Brodhead explained, the decision to grant approval was an "easy one." After all, the university was only reaffirming "the importance of the principle of free expression." Easy or not, the decision immediately provoked criticism. Some of it came from Duke alumni and others off campus, and some of it came from a student group, the Duke Conservative Union. Altogether, some 90,000 signatures were gathered for an online petition denouncing the university's move. Not everyone likes the beauzeaux.
Among the targets of protest was the PSM's fifth official "guiding principle," which decrees the group's refusal to denounce any terrorist act committed by Palestinians. Condemnation was also directed at the PSM's amply documented history of anti-Semitism and incitement to violence. One scheduled speaker, Charles Carlson, had openly called for lethal attacks against Israeli youth, declaring that "every young Israeli is military--they are all proper war targets," and that "each wedding, Passover celebration, or bar mitzvah [in Israel] is a potential military target." "May Haman son of Hammedatha and Adolf son of Alois smile on this endeavor."
Another scheduled participant, Abe Greenhouse, had been arrested in 2003 after smashing a pie in the face of Israeli minister Natan Sharansky as he was about to give a lecture at Rutgers. An organizer of the 2002 PSM gathering, Fadi Kiblawi, had written that the Palestinian plight made him "want to strap a bomb to [his] chest and kill those [Zionist] racists," while an erstwhile PSM speaker, Hatem Bazian, had called for "an intifada in this country" (i.e., the U.S.) and asserted that the sacred texts of Islam require its adherents to "fight the Jews." Prominently active in the movement was Sami al-Arian, who in 2003 was indicted on racketeering and terrorism charges and is currently awaiting trial in Florida.
These and other unequivocal statements and deeds of PSM activists were detailed in letters to the editor and in advertisements that the Duke Conservative Union placed in the Chronicle, Duke's student newspaper. In response, the university administration was largely silent. But Mr. Brodhead himself, moving beyond his previous stance of avowed neutrality in the name of free expression, issued what amounted to an outright endorsement of the conference. Declining to criticize any aspect of the PSM, he asserted only that a great deal of inaccurate information was circulating on the Internet and that the "deepest principle involved [in hosting the conference] is not even the principle of free speech. It's the principle of education through dialogue." How this "dialogue" would proceed under the PSM's practice of prohibiting recording devices and reporters from many of its sessions was never made clear. More at link
#1
How this "dialogue" would proceed under the PSMâs practice of prohibiting recording devices and reporters from many of its sessions was never made clear.
Free speech is all fine and dandy, but given a group history of pushing the line, limits have to be set and enforced. No provision for monitoring and enforcement should mean no conference, no ifs, ands, or buts.
As the Senate Committee hearing to confirm AG nominee Gonzalez is set for Thursday, I thought we should post this refresher on the Geneva Conventions as the apply to AQ.
Geneva Conventions
(Hat tip: Rush)
The 4 Conditions of the Geneva Convention Relative to POWs
Adopted on 12 August 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of
International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War, held in Geneva
from 21 April to 12 August, 1949. Entry into force 21 October 1950
PART I
GENERAL PROVISIONS
Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfill the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/05/2005 3:02:45 PM ||
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#1
What about the argument that the Convention Against Torture applies regardless of Geneva Convention status?
#3
"The acursed has been advised of his lack of rights under the Secret Code of Military Toughness, and will conduct himself accordingly!"
-- Firesign Theatre
#4
VAMark, I know it will make you squeamish, but torture is a relative term. What the IRC deems as torture are common interrogation techniques by most countries. FYI, most bad guys will not answer your question simply because you say âpretty please.â Sleep deprivation, loud music and isolation are all interrogation techniques used by most âcivilizedâ countries. If we have a serious bad ass, they might employ harsher methods such as water-boarding. Contrary to popular belief these methods are effective in getting information and do not cause permanent harm to the detainee. IMHO they could use any method they want to extract any scrap of information that might save one life (especially American). Gonzales has done nothing wrong and this is merely a Dhimi side-show that will gain them nothing. Most Americans support the current interrogation methods used and the Dhimis are about to find that out the hard way.
RALEIGH, N.C. — Cpl. Wassef Ali Hassoun, the Marine who was once thought kidnapped in Iraq only to be charged later with desertion, has disappeared, Marine officials announced Wednesday.
I don't think the "taken hostage" ploy will work this time.
Hassoun had been on leave with his family in West Jordan, Utah, when he was scheduled to return to Camp Lejeune on Tuesday, military officials said. Hassoun's family said they do not know his whereabouts and the military is notifying civilian law enforcement of his fugitive status. Officials listed Hassoun as a deserter Wednesday.
They can do both trials at the same time.
He was charged in December with desertion following a five-month probe into his June disappearance from a U.S. military camp in Iraq. The 24-year-old Utah resident went missing June 20, 2004, from his base in Fallujah. A few days later a videotape of him blindfolded and with a sword hanging over his head aired on Arab television, prompting fears he had been taken hostage by terrorists. A group claiming to have taken Hassoun said he had been kidnapped after being lured from the base by a love affair. But in a bizarre twist, Hassoun turned up unharmed on July 8 at the U.S. Embassy in his native Lebanon. It was unclear how he had gotten there.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/05/2005 4:54:16 PM ||
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Damn! He got back into the U.S. and has disappeared just as Bin Laden puts out an audio tape which gives the signal for an all out attack.
#5
BAR - not doing Muslim recruits any favors. Well, maybe not but hopefully the various intel services have him on a very loose, but nevertheless there, leash. If you want to find the cheese, follow the rats.
#6
Next time we hear from this clown will be either in or via Kanada and the lack of that Northern Friendship Fence. No self-respecting Bail Bondsman would've written paper on him - I can't imagine why the Jarines gave him more leave.
#7
NBC News reported the US has tracked his credit card transactions, first to Canada and then on to, wait for it, Lebanon. Back to the loving arms of his "family".
Posted by: Steve ||
01/05/2005 20:41 Comments ||
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#8
Put it this way, his fellow Marines, of whatever stripe, will have something in mind for him.
And its much more severe than a bootcamp blanket party.
My bet is his family aided and abetted. Time to go investigate them. Thoroughly.
VIENNA - IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei Wednesday warned the United States against spying on the UN atomic agency saying it would be a blow to "multilateralism and the United Nations system as we know it."
Gee, he's sez it like that would be a bad thing
Posted by: Steve ||
01/05/2005 11:50:33 AM ||
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Or what?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
01/05/2005 12:33 Comments ||
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#5
How about we seize him and have underwear put on his head instead? To really make it torture, he can choose between the Hildebeast's undies or Madam Al-Bright.
#6
How can an appointed representative deny a member of the security council? There should be total 100% transparency. This guy should have been gone long ago if you look at the proliferation that's happened under his watch he should be tried for incompitance.
Probably, We already know. And there's not a damne thing he can do if we really do want to know. Given his and the UN's prefidy and incompetence, we are morally compelled to monitor them.
#23
Just wondering... are there water systems (drinking fountains, sinks, toliets) whatever within say 50 feet of his cone of silence? Also, natural gas lines are interesting too. Maybe a stove or dryer?
#24
If ElBEE wasn't such a no-mind whimp, we wouldn't have to spy (so much).
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/05/2005 23:06 Comments ||
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Hmm, something he doesn't want us to know?
Tango Foxtrot Bravo.
Probably, We already know. And there's not a damne thing he can do if we really do want to know. Given his and the UN's prefidy and incompetence, we are morally compelled to monitor them.
Probably, We already know. And there's not a damne thing he can do if we really do want to know. Given his and the UN's prefidy and incompetence, we are morally compelled to monitor them.
The Bush administration is considering imposing new sanctions on Syria to prod it to crack down on Iraqis there who are providing financial and logistical support to insurgents in Iraq, senior American counterterrorism officials said Tuesday.
The Syrian government has not taken action against the network of Iraqis, the officials said, despite months of quiet protests from the United States. Among the steps being considered is a Treasury Department action that could essentially isolate the Syrian banking system.
The network includes former officials of Saddam Hussein's government, American officials have said, adding that intelligence gathered in recent months from informants, captives and intercepted communications suggested that the network's role in providing support to insurgents in Iraq was more extensive than previously suspected.
While the anti-American insurgency would continue to thrive even without help from Syria, the American officials say, Iraqis in Syria are playing a significant role in coordinating the flows of money, weapons and combatants inside Iraq.
Syrian officials have sought to rebut the American criticism by saying the United States has yet to provide them with sufficient accurate information to prompt action against the individual Iraqis who the Americans say are in the network.
"We have told the Americans to please give us any information you have regarding this subject, but some of the information has not been credible," said Ammar Alarsan, a spokesman for the Syrian Embassy in Washington.
Among Iraqis believed to be living at least part time in Syria and playing an active role in the insurgency are several of Mr. Hussein's close relatives. In addition, Izzat Ibrahim, the No. 2 official in Iraq under Mr. Hussein and now the most-wanted Iraqi still sought by the United States, has traveled to and from Syria in the past 18 months, American officials say. In recent weeks the interim Iraqi government and its American backers have become increasingly outspoken in calling attention to what it describes as a regional command in exile in Syria.
The American officials would speak about Syria only on condition of anonymity, saying they did not want their comments to overshadow recent public remarks by Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the top American commander in Iraq, Richard L. Armitage, the deputy secretary of state, and others.
The officials interviewed represented several government agencies involved in counterterrorism policy, including those favoring a more patient approach toward Syria and those urging a harder line.
General Casey said publicly last month that the United States had "fairly good information" that some senior former officials of the Iraqi Baath Party had established a high command that was "operating out of Syria with impunity and providing direction and financing for the insurgency in Iraq."
"That needs to stop," General Casey said in a Dec. 16 briefing at the Pentagon.
On a visit to Syria over the weekend, Mr. Armitage delivered what one American official described as a "stern warning" to the Damascus government. Adam Ereli, the department's deputy spokesman, said Monday that Mr. Armitage had emphasized "that there's still a problem with former regime elements using Syria to help the insurgency and that it was very important to have that stopped."
American and Syrian officials have held high-level meetings in recent months to address their differences, and Syria has said repeatedly that it is committed to working with the United States toward a peaceful, unified Iraq. In recent days Mr. Armitage and other American officials have gone out of their way to praise Syria for taking steps to secure its border with Iraq and prevent foreign fighters from crossing the border to reinforce the insurgency.
But a senior American counterterrorism official said the steps taken by Syria so far were unsatisfactory. "More and more, we're seeing groups funded and supported by former regime elements, and they are operating out of and with the support of the Syrian government," the official said. He said that he was not accusing the Syrian government of providing direct support to the insurgency, but that "we haven't yet seen them take appropriate action to prevent the funding and the transport of weapons."
Among the relatives of Mr. Hussein who have spent time in Syria and are believed to have played a leading role in financing the insurgency is Fatiq Suleiman al-Majid, a cousin of Mr. Hussein and a former officer in Iraq's Special Security Organization.
Syria has long been subject to limited economic sanctions by the United States because of its designation by the State Department as a sponsor of terrorism. Under pressure from Congress, the Bush administration imposed additional measures last spring that prohibit exports to Syria of most goods, excluding food and medicine, and prohibit commercial flights between the United States and Syria by Syrian-owned aircraft.
The main additional tool being weighed by the administration for possible further sanctions, the counterterrorism officials said, is authority wielded by the Treasury Department, which in May labeled the Commercial Bank of Syria a financial institution of "primary money laundering concern."
The designation was a response to what the department called the role played by the Syrian bank in laundering money illegally diverted by Mr. Hussein's government from the United Nations-administered oil-for-food program.
Further steps by the Treasury are possible, the most severe of which would be to prohibit any American bank, broker or mutual fund from dealing with the Syrian bank, the country's single government-owned financial institution that specializes in foreign exchange transactions.
One American counterterrorism official said the threat of further action had already served to focus Syrian attention on the problem. The official said Treasury officials had met several times in recent months with their Syrian counterparts to discuss the issue.
A second counterterrorism official said there remained "a wide range of views" within the administration about taking further action against Syria, with the State Department most opposed. The official said the Pentagon in particular was pressing for a more aggressive approach.
"This is not the Ho Chi Minh trail that's keeping the insurgency alive," the official said. "But if Syria were to take action, it would have an impact."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/05/2005 1:22:39 AM ||
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It is the Ho Chi Min Trail unless we do something to make them stop. Diplomacy and the pure stupidity of the Johnson and 1st Nixon administrations led to the needless death of thousands of US soldiers and marines because we refused to overtly inderdict in Laos and Cambodia and NV. The scale of the loss of life is different but the result is the same.
You give them 2 days to shut it off or we kick their ass. If we would have done that in Haiphong Harbor and Hanoi...and the trail...the Vietnam "War" would have had a different ending.
#3
smn - this idea you have that we will have to wait for the Lincoln and Bonhomme Richard to show up is peculiar at least and insane at worst. We will smack Syria before the elections
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/05/2005 8:39 Comments ||
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#4
anyone still have that "exhibit A" graphic laying around?
#6
Frank, No hit before the elections. After the elections, the Iraqis will get to decide what they want to do. If they want to stop Syria, we'll help them...a lot. If they don't want to do anything, we'll be able to read the handwriting on the wall.
Wasn't that wall in Babylon?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
01/05/2005 10:48 Comments ||
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#7
i agree with Mrs D on this one. Indeed, i think thats about the strongest argument AGAINST delaying the elections. Its hard to go around saying we're going after Syria cause theyve meddled in Iraq, when most arabs and Europeans think WE're meddling in Iraq. Once its an elected Iraqi govt complaining about Syrian meddling, that puts a whole different spin on it.
#11
Yeah, tekel is from the same root as shekel, which is today the Israeli currency, but in the bible means a unit of weight (see pound for a similar development in english and other indo-european languages) the other words i dont know, but I think eLarson is right.
You'll all be happy to know that Dr. Gunaratna, as the article indicates is both alive and unharmed from the events of the tsunami.
While most of the world's attention was focused on the tsunami last week, Osama bin Laden issued another audiotape. Somehow listening to al Qaeda's leader offer his endorsement of Abu Musab al Zarqawi and his murderous ways in Iraq seemed trivial next to the devastation in places like Indonesia, Sri Lanka and Thailand.
But bin Laden's message was anything but trivial. And its very presence is a reminder that the tsunami and terrorism are related.
How?
Just ask Rohan Gunaratna, senior research fellow at the Institute of Defense and Strategic Studies in Singapore. You might have seen him on CNN's air from time to time as an expert on al Qaeda and terrorism. Gunaratna lives in Singapore, but he was born and raised in Sri Lanka.
Right now, he's mourning the loss of friends back home. Like most expatriates, he is stunned by what happened not only to his country but to the entire region.
Terrorism has been no stranger to the region. Gunaratna became an expert on suicide bombings many years ago because the Tamil Tigers in his homeland began using such attacks as early as 1987.
Several hundred people were killed this past year in southern Thailand in the festering insurgency between Islamic separatists and the Thai military. And Aceh, the hardest hit area in Indonesia, is the home of GAM, a separatist group that has been waging a sporadic conflict with the Jakarta government.
It was precisely in these areas that the devastation was worst. Some of it, says Gunaratna, took a toll on the terrorist and insurgent movements, who lost both fighters and infrastructure when the waves crashed on shore.
"This is a golden opportunity for the United States," says Gunaratna. The refrain that the United States and the West are losing the war of ideas, especially in the Muslim world, was the main topic at a recent conference about al Qaeda
But counter that with images of U.S. helicopters bringing aid to places like Aceh, delivering something that insurgents can't, and Gunaratna thinks that devastation can unwittingly bring some good. That it might overwhelm the message from bin Laden, at least in Indonesia, which is after all the most populous Islamic country in the world.
He also thinks that the magnitude of the destruction has brought on war fatigue.
"We haven't even started to think about this issue. But natural disasters shape leaders," says Gunaratna.
He talked recently with one former Tamil Tiger terrorist after the tsunami. Gunaratna says this man had been upset at the lack of progress in peace talks between the Tamils and the Sri Lankan government. But he changed his mind after he saw the immense suffering that took place on December 26.
Now, says Gunaratna, the man thought discussing politics was less important than relieving the suffering.
Still, Gunaratna isn't getting too optimistic. Already the Sri Lankan government and the Tamil Tigers are squabbling about who should deliver relief aid.
Another expert on terrorism, Zach Abuza, a professor in Southeast Asian studies at Simmons College in Boston, Massachusetts, says the opportunity is there not just for the United States, but for the governments of these countries as well to win a propaganda victory by providing aid not just now, but in the years to come.
One reason military forces in Thailand, Indonesia and Sri Lanka have a chance to show their positive side, says Abuza, is they've had such an appalling human rights record in the past.
With all the aid money coming into the region, Abuza says it will be important to keep an eye on funding from Islamic charities, especially in Saudi Arabia. In the past, he says, these charities have provided funding for al Qaeda-related groups like Abu Sayyaf in the Philippines.
Still, like Rohan Gunaratna, Abuza thinks the tsunami's aftermath can help turn the tide against terrorism in the region, if the U.S. and local governments deliver on their promises.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/05/2005 12:17:17 AM ||
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It's great to see a ray of optimism in the land of the Big Waves.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/05/2005 1:33 Comments ||
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Color me skeptical. Foreign aid programs don't defeat terrorism or insurgencies; militaries combined with effective government institutions and courageous, broad popular support do.
This MSM Meme du Jour of "Chance for US to Regain Lost Political Capital" reeks of desperate, dumb, wishful MSM thinking. I
t would be nice if our intrepid journalists would get on the ground and actually observe what's happening and give us the facts instead of concocting bullshit memes after chatting with a few "analysts." We get ten times as much fact and insight from a day's posts on diplomadic.com or asian blogs than we do from bullshit "analysis" like this.
#3
Yeah, but the tsunami did enough damage to GAM and the LTTE to put them out of operation for a long time. That is, like Captain America said, a silver lining that shouldn't be missed.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/05/2005 1:58 Comments ||
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#4
I'm all for silver linings. Hope there are more. But I'd like to see more reporting and less speculation from the MSM. I don't think anyone can even begin to guess the consequences, let alone order and judge them, of this thing.
#5
It would be nice if our intrepid journalists would get on the ground
What respectable member of the MSM wants to run around a corpse-strewn backwater, interviewing locals who aren't even shooting at the foreign military in their lands? Singapore and Boston are more worthwhile expense-account territories.
Like more than 300,000 others in Indonesia's Aceh province, Cut Juhariyani and her three children have been spending the past nine days in a refugee camp, left with nothing after the Boxing Day tsunamis swept away homes and families.
So in the hot midday sun outside a shop in the Banda Aceh suburb of Lambaro yesterday she was foraging through a pile of used clothes with three dozen other people, eager to find something for her children to wear and begin the process of building a new life.
And with banners and uniformed, wispy-bearded men all around to remind her, Mrs Juhariyani knew whom to thank.
"I give my thanks to the PKS," she said, using the Indonesian acronym for the Prosperous Justice party, a conservative Islamic party. "This is very helpful for Aceh."
Hundreds of often ad-hoc aid stations and refugee camps offering food, medicine, and even the possibility of news of lost relatives have sprung up across Aceh's capital. But of all the independent aid operations now on the ground in Aceh none is as impressive - or well-organised - as that of the PKS, whose earnest cadres have become fixtures at natural disasters in Indonesia in recent years.
Backed by donations from members, it has chartered airliners to ferry more than 1,300 volunteers from around Indonesia to Aceh, helicopters to reach remote areas, and a fleet of trucks to distribute aid.
Its telegenic leader, Hidayat Nurwahid picked up a decomposing body with his bare hands as part of the clean-up effort, members boast. And by its own count it has shipped more than 1,000 tonnes of aid into Aceh in the past nine days.
The PKS is far from being the only independent group on the ground in Aceh. One refugee camp is sponsored jointly by the Indonesian Buddhist Association and the country's air force. PKS, which advocates the introduction of Islamic law in largely secular Indonesia, is also not the only fundamentalist Muslim group delivering aid in what has long been considered Indonesia's most Islamically conservative province.
The Indonesian Mujahideen Council, or MMI, a group founded by Abu Bakar Bashir, a radical cleric on trial for allegedly leading the al-Qaeda-linked Jemaah Islamiyah, the terrorist group blamed for the 2002 Bali bombings and others in Indonesia, has sent two teams to Aceh. Some were bristling at the US presence the international relief effort has brought. "The problem is America came here and helped us just to show its power," said Abdullah, a 26-year-old from central Java who stood among a group of fellow MMI members outside Banda Aceh's airport yesterday as US helicopters took off nearby.
And, he added, "America uses the country they help as a toy."
The difference with the PKS is that it has emerged as a new force in Indonesian politics in the past year. And it is doing so at a time when some analysts are concerned over the direction of Islam in a country that is both home to the world's largest Muslim populations and renowned for its lax practice of the religion.
A survey by the US-funded Freedom Institute think-tank taken late last year, for example, found strong support for key tenets of Islamic law with 40 per cent of Indonesians backing cutting off the hands of thieves and 55 per cent saying stoning adulterers to death was legitimate.
Having grabbed 48 seats in the country's 500-seat parliament in elections last year, many see the PKS as a natural vehicle for those who have unsuccessfully tried to introduce Koranic law into Indonesia in the half-century since its independence.
Mr Nurwahid now sits atop Indonesia's Constitutional Assembly. The party is a key ally for President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono.
And many analysts expect its influence - and constituency - to grow ahead of the 2009 elections.
The popularity of the PKS is largely the result of a strong anti-corruption stand. But its support is being bolstered by its disaster relief work in Indonesia.
The party is keen, however, to play down the political impact of its activities. Such work, said Sapto Waluyo, a party spokesman, "is our job. It's our responsibility. It's not a political agenda". And in some cases the PKS has met a tough reception. Ahmad Fadli, a 30-year-old labourer who lost his mother and two brothers in the disaster, wished the clothes PKS provided were new. As for his vote, the PKS version of Islam was "too hard," he said. "Especially for young people like us."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/05/2005 12:08:20 AM ||
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The geopolitics of relief aid. This is retail politics with long-term impact.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/05/2005 1:39 Comments ||
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The problem is this [vile expletive deleted] wouldn't dirty his hands helping if we wern't there. After all, this [even viler string of expletives deleted], er, person is shooting for power, and the peasants be damned. In this guy's world, they are a renewable resouce, and it is their privilidge to be ruled by one such as himself.
Posted by: N Guard ||
01/05/2005 1:40 Comments ||
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#3
Maybe they all deserve each other, #2. The peasants aren't exactly sympathetic figures: A survey by the US-funded Freedom Institute think-tank taken late last year, for example, found strong support for key tenets of Islamic law with 40 per cent of Indonesians backing cutting off the hands of thieves and 55 per cent saying stoning adulterers to death was legitimate.
AND Ahmad Fadli, a 30-year-old labourer who lost his mother and two brothers in the disaster, wished the clothes PKS provided were new
#4
No, JB, they don't deserve to be misruled. Not them, not the Russians under stalin, or the Chinese under Mao, or the Iranians under the Mullahs. Most of the folx there are just working stiffs trying to get along as best they can.
Some russian isrealite ,while writing about democracy, observed that in oppressive regimes, the majority of the slaveszeksinmatesserfs citizens will say publicly whatever will get them the least heat from whoever the power is this week. I think it was Natan Schransky(sp?) in his "The Case For Democracy", but I can't remember right now.
We're just a temporary ray of goodness in SE asia. The [blasphemy deleted] I referred to in #2 is potentialy a small scale tyrant if he gets a chance. I can only hope that [eardrum rupturing obscenity] dosen't.
Posted by: N Guard ||
01/05/2005 2:16 Comments ||
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#5
..in oppressive regimes, the majority of the citizens will say publicly whatever will get them the least heat from whoever the power is this week.
[...]
The [blasphemy deleted] I referred to in #2 is potentialy a small scale tyrant if he gets a chance.
The population is undoubtedly part of the problem. They don't seem to understand that this desire to avoid "heat" is nothing more than an invitation for tyrant after tyrant to assume power, almost guaranteeing an endless stream of misery. As long as this mindset doesn't change, their situation isn't likely to change either.
#6
geez bomb-a-rama, it's just so easy for someone to talk about changing mindsets. You forgot to realise that in most cases you end up dead if you do that. Therefore, living in a free democratic country, it's very easy to preach about changing mindsets when your life is not on the line
#7
But of all the independent aid operations now on the ground in Aceh none is as impressive - or well-organised - as that of the PKS, whose earnest cadres have become fixtures at natural disasters [ie: wars caused by them] in Indonesia in recent years.
Ah...Good Ol' Financial Times. NYT and WAPO's Australian cousin. I remember them well prior to the build of Afghanistan and Iraq...blatantly spewing the anti-American propaganda back then too. >"NONE so organized"I> ya say? Notice not one mention of the US effort except a quote from an anonymous Abdullah who adds America only comes to treat them as a toy.
BTW, this seems to be the favorite tactic of the Hate America First press. While I've actually been surprised by the positive coverage on American help, I suppose its hard to ignore it. But despite the positive coverage, notice they focus as much as possible on everyone else who is helping.
I find it kinda funny that the writer did allow, in the very last sentence, that they younger folks don't like the PKS much.
#8
younger folks don't like the PKS much
The young grow older, so I wouldn't put much hope in this statement.
I would expect the PKS is well organized and why not - this organization is well integrated into the Indonesian society, whereas other aid organizations are being parachuted into the country from far a field, in some cases seeing the country for the first time.
As for saying what the PKS want - give me a break-the poll was taken by a US funded freedom think tank, there were no PKS machetes at the necks of the respondees. They said what they believed - read the quote again and don't take it out of context to make excuses. These people are what they say they are and believe in. And people deserve what they elect or support. The USA is not always going to be the fairy god mother to go into these Third World countries to wave a magic wand and have everyone change their mindset and love, love freedom. With freedom comes responsibilities and freedom is hard work. Some people don't like that.
#9
joeblowhard - gosh.. Thanks for your insight. I'd never have ever guessed that the PKS with their "helicopters" (how many?) and "fleet of trucks" (how many?) would be so much more well-organized and impressive than the US military working with Aussies and the Indonesian govt.
But it says so in the FT...so it MUST be true, right? Right?
#10
it's very easy to preach about changing mindsets when your life is not on the line
How many tyrants do YOU think is enough? Two? Three? A handful?
They can either do it themselves, or have external help. Doesn't matter to me which one, but absent either, as has already been said, nothing will change for them. My ass definitely isn't on the line, but that doesn't change the facts on the ground over there.
#11
But it says so in the FT...so it MUST be true, right? Right
Well, just because it says so in the Financial Times, it doesn't mean it's false.
I think you need to get beyond your fragile American flag waving rah-rah when you read articles like these. The PKS is efficient and organized because it is part of the society there, can speak the language, and can actual disseminate the goods that is delivered to the country by our helicopters and trucks. Our military is probably handing over the materials to out stretched hands of the PKS without even knowing they are PKS members.
#12
flag waving rah, rah? Cute. Yep, I've even got a little cheerleader outfit on with USA right across my butt. I like it better than standing around with a "the end is near" sign as you seem to favor...so boring and depressing...brings everyone else down too.
It's an interesting point you make, but I'm confused - according to this article, it is the PKK that has all the trucks and helicopters not the US.
I know you don't really read much beside your own posting - but I'd like to point out that I never said the PKK wasn't using the opportunity to spread it's poison. My comment was on the writing skills of the FT.
#14
My comment was on the writing skills of the FT
I think the "writing skills" of the Financial Times is aok. It is a respected business journal.
No need to get sensitive about rah-rah. I just meant that knee jerk dismissal of information just because it's not written in the "trusted" Washington Times can be short sighted.
I'm not doom and gloom. I am a realist. Indonesia is not a poor innocent country. It has been infiltrated by extremist Muslims which are anti-American, btw. FT is just simply describing the situation as it is. It wasn't written to "diss" American relief efforts there. It just confirmed that American aid may be ultimately falling into the wrong hands and if you think my take is "doom and gloom," I would suggest you're too chirpy for the reality of the situation there.
#15
1. I don't doubt that you think the reporting skills of FT are aok.
2. The NYT and WAPO, to which I compared it, are also "respected", and I don't doubt you think they are aok also.
4. I never said Indonesia was an innocent country nor was I chirpy on the reality of their situation.
Do me a favor and learn how to read, blowhard. I said that FT reporting on this was a joke, and it is. The PKS does not, by any stretch of the imagination, have the most impressive or well organized effort. The US does. By a long-shot. It's a BGO unless you are daffy enough to disbelieve reality just because some paper puts it in print. Which apparently you must be, to believe that the PKS has amounted a more impressive and well organized relief effort than the US.
All of your little gotcha's aren't going to change what is essentially one of the biggest no-brainers of the week. But you go ahead and believe that the PKS has mounted the most impressive relief effort out there. Don't let me stop you.
#16
JB: I'm not doom and gloom. I am a realist. Indonesia is not a poor innocent country. It has been infiltrated by extremist Muslims which are anti-American, btw. FT is just simply describing the situation as it is. It wasn't written to "diss" American relief efforts there. It just confirmed that American aid may be ultimately falling into the wrong hands and if you think my take is "doom and gloom," I would suggest you're too chirpy for the reality of the situation there.
I agree. I don't think American aid will change minds. That has to come from within. The old saying (paraphrased) is that the native would rather live in squalor and be ruled by leaders of the same complexion than live in splendor and be ruled by foreigners. The corollary of that is that the native would rather hear lies from his compatriots than be told the truth by outsiders.
#17
Lex, I seriously think you need to get your glasses re-checked. The FT article offered no anti-American slant. It simply reported facts about the popularity of the PKS with the Indonesians in the most Islamically conservative region of the country and that this is not the first time that the PKS has dealt with disaster relief. Of course they'd be well organized and well funded to do so-they are a politcal party and political presence in that country. What's to dis-believe that this is true? Of course the US's aid is greater and we have more helicopters and trucks-we're the most affluent nation on earth duh, but why take away from the resources of the PKS that have developed over time in Indonesia perhaps even funded in some part by our own good Dobie UN foreign aid?
Besides, you of all people should be enamoured by the PKS - after all you're anti-corruption and so is the PKS and that's one of the reasons they've gained the support of the population in Aceh. The popularity of the PKS is largely the result of a strong anti-corruption stand. But its support is being bolstered by its disaster relief work in Indonesia.
Fyi, the FT is largely business related and how geopolitical situations affect markets, investments, world economies. It can hardly be considered MSM or be compared to the NYT in any shape way or fashion. I suspect you've never read the FT to consider it MSM. It's a British business newspaper - owned by the Pearson Group - similar to the WSJ but with more international overview and less US focus.
#18
Another vote here that aid won't make a difference to the political equation. This is another MSM wet dream, to be filed in the Why Do They Hate US? category. A good example of the extraordinary parochialism of those westerners who think that not a sparrow falls in the world without the fell hand of Rumsfeld/Bush behind it.
Aceh's quarrel with Indonesia goes back decades and involves far more than muslim hatreds or US policies for good or ill.
#19
FT is just simply describing the situation as it is. No....they are not. The US is the biggest presence on the scene, not the PKS who is, according to this article passing out "old clothes" and whose version of Islam is "too hard".
Will American aid change their minds? Probably not. But this article gives us no basis to believe that the PKS aid will accomplish that either.
#20
joe blow...I think you must be aris. You never can seem to quite grasp the point that others are making, and spend your time kicking down strawmen that you, yourself set up.
#22
passing out "old clothes" and whose version of Islam is "too hard".
A couple of Indonesians were quoted. I think you have selectively picked out quotes to put a positive spin on the political situation in that country. The first Indonesian woman we meet thanks the PKS. Another Indonesian is quoted as saying: "America uses the country they help as a toy." while he's watching the US aid helicopters take off from his airport! The Indonesian you quote isn't exactly a poster boy for hope in Indonesia. He condescendingly berates the PKS because the clothes are second hand ( he may like Uncle Sam better for a micro second or 2 because we are better heeled donors)and his only criticism of the PKS is that their version of religion is "too tough" for young people. If you think he's endorsing Western liberal democratic values with that comment, you're dreaming.
#23
JB: the FT is largely business related and how geopolitical situations affect markets, investments, world economies. It can hardly be considered MSM or be compared to the NYT in any shape way or fashion. I suspect you've never read the FT to consider it MSM. It's a British business newspaper - owned by the Pearson Group - similar to the WSJ but with more international overview and less US focus.
The Wall Street Journal is more liberal than the New York Times. Except in its editorial section. And the Financial Times is more liberal than the Wall Street Journal, which is saying something. Newspapers, like every other for-profit firm, should be in the business of making money. But they are not, mainly because they are staffed by journalists, whose agenda involves changing the world, not reporting the news or even making money for the company.
If you want to figure out the ideological slant of a particular newspaper or magazine, just watch who they hire. In the past year or so, the WSJ hired Andrew Higgins, formerly of the Guardian. The mix of anti-Americanism combined with leftist smugness found on the WSJ's news pages is just astounding, and I was an avid reader of the New York Times for decades. The WSJ's news pages, formerly headed up by Al Hunt (CNN's Judy Woodruff's hubby) until a few days ago, even has its own liberal editorial section, under various headings, nestled in the news sections.
The final product--shown in the table--is a list of ADA ratings for the 20 media outlets. Each rating can be compared with the congressional average of 50, which breaks down into 16 for Republicans and 84 for Democrats.
On the conservative end, the only two outlets below 50 were the Washington Times (35) and Fox News Special Report with Brit Hume (40). Although right of center, these ratings are much closer to the centrist position of 50 than to congressional Republicans' average position of 16.
The other 18 outlets are on the liberal side of 50. Particularly striking are the high liberal ratings for the New York Times and CBS Evening News (both 74), not too far below the average score of 84 for Democratic members of Congress. The news programs of the other two traditional television networks are closer to the center--62 for NBC Nightly News and 61 for ABC World News Tonight.
The one Internet representative, the Drudge Report, comes in at 60, moderately left of center. The most balanced reporting shows up in the NewsHour with Jim Lehrer, CNN News Night with Aaron Brown, and ABC's Good Morning America, each of which had a score of 56. Interestingly, these balanced programs provided three of the four anchors for the main election debates--Jim Lehrer and Gwen Ifill from PBS and Charles Gibson from ABC. (It's hard to understand how Bob Schieffer from CBS made it in.)
One surprise is that the Wall Street Journal's news pages have the most liberal rating of all, 85, about the same as the typical Democrat in Congress. The rating for the Journal's editorial pages would of course look very different. (As one quipster observed, James Carville and Mary Matalin probably agree more often than the news and editorial divisions of the Wall Street Journal.)
#24
JB: the FT is largely business related and how geopolitical situations affect markets, investments, world economies. It can hardly be considered MSM or be compared to the NYT in any shape way or fashion. I suspect you've never read the FT to consider it MSM. It's a British business newspaper - owned by the Pearson Group - similar to the WSJ but with more international overview and less US focus.
The Wall Street Journal is more liberal than the New York Times. Except in its editorial section. And the Financial Times is more liberal than the Wall Street Journal, which is saying something. Newspapers, like every other for-profit firm, should be in the business of making money. But they are not, mainly because they are staffed by journalists, whose agenda involves changing the world, not reporting the news or even making money for the company.
If you want to figure out the ideological slant of a particular newspaper or magazine, just watch who they hire. In the past year or so, the WSJ hired Andrew Higgins, formerly of the Guardian. The mix of anti-Americanism combined with leftist smugness found on the WSJ's news pages is just astounding, and I was an avid reader of the New York Times for decades. The WSJ's news pages, formerly headed up by Al Hunt (CNN's Judy Woodruff's hubby) until a few days ago, even has its own liberal editorial section, under various headings, nestled in the news sections.
The final product--shown in the table--is a list of ADA ratings for the 20 media outlets. Each rating can be compared with the congressional average of 50, which breaks down into 16 for Republicans and 84 for Democrats.
On the conservative end, the only two outlets below 50 were the Washington Times (35) and Fox News Special Report with Brit Hume (40). Although right of center, these ratings are much closer to the centrist position of 50 than to congressional Republicans' average position of 16.
The other 18 outlets are on the liberal side of 50. Particularly striking are the high liberal ratings for the New York Times and CBS Evening News (both 74), not too far below the average score of 84 for Democratic members of Congress. The news programs of the other two traditional television networks are closer to the center--62 for NBC Nightly News and 61 for ABC World News Tonight.
The one Internet representative, the Drudge Report, comes in at 60, moderately left of center. The most balanced reporting shows up in the NewsHour with Jim Lehrer, CNN News Night with Aaron Brown, and ABC's Good Morning America, each of which had a score of 56. Interestingly, these balanced programs provided three of the four anchors for the main election debates--Jim Lehrer and Gwen Ifill from PBS and Charles Gibson from ABC. (It's hard to understand how Bob Schieffer from CBS made it in.)
One surprise is that the Wall Street Journal's news pages have the most liberal rating of all, 85, about the same as the typical Democrat in Congress. The rating for the Journal's editorial pages would of course look very different. (As one quipster observed, James Carville and Mary Matalin probably agree more often than the news and editorial divisions of the Wall Street Journal.)
#25
you've already defeated yourself by saying: Of course the US's aid is greater and we have more helicopters and trucks-we're the most affluent nation on earth duh,
My point has been consistently that the reporter discredited himself on several points, that being a significant one. And the rest of it is just as disjointed. He has one quote from a guy saying that America uses the countries they help as a toy - and one saying that the PKS is "too hard". So why do you put so much emphasis on one rather than the other?
All of your arguments saying that I believe that the Indonesia is too chirpy or that I don't think that the Muslim Extremists can make inroads are just from your own imagination.
All I see in this article is a bunch of innuendo that they will hate the US for their aid and embrace the Islmaists for theirs. And that's all based on a poll numbers showing that a majority still favor chopping off hands as a penalty...which I might add is a far cry from saying they are ready to accept the rest of the PKS extreme agenda.
If you disbelieve that aid from the US will win their hearts and minds, why are you so quick to believe that aid from the PKS will? Especially when the reporters own quotes put that in doubt?
#26
The Wall Street Journal is more liberal than the New York Times. Except in its editorial section.
I'm not sure I buy that. Nor do I buy that Aaron Brown got "most balanced". All of that data seems a bit disjointed to me. I smell statistical sample problems.
#27
Have the Kuwaitis change their opinion of Americans after being saved from Saddam's claws?
Those who want to give because they are generous people, more power to them! But those who are given thinking that they will change Muslims' opinion of Americans, do not hold your breath.
I, for one, have lived among Muslims for too long to know that they are the most ungrateful and treacherous people on earth. If I could make sure that my money would go to a non-Muslim in need (living among Muslims sucked the generosity right out of my heart), I would contribute some but since I cannot, then I won't.
#28
ZF: the WSJ is pro-GWB and pro-GOP. To claim otherwise is missing the obvious point that GOP is comprised of businessmen and is business friendly, so who else would the WSJ support? Prior to the election, the WSJ was consistently on the side of the GPO and in GWB's corner.
The FT is British owned. While it may have liberal opinion journalists, primarily like the WSJ, its main readership is the business minded sector. Neither the WSJ nor the FT are trying to rival the NYT or the Guardian or the Telegraph for readers. They are for the most part well written business journals for the layman, with a geopolitical overview because that impacts economies and business dealings.
If you disbelieve that aid from the US will win their hearts and minds, why are you so quick to believe that aid from the PKS will? Especially when the reporters own quotes put that in doubt?
You're a bit too defensive for a rational thinker like me. Also 2b you're a little too quick with the personal assassination tactics to be taken seriously. Grow up or go back to the crib where emtional temper tantrums are acceptable types of behavior.
One more time, lex and 2 b: the PKS is already there, it's them, it's the Indonesians in Aceh province, the PKS is in the bodypolitic. Didn't you read the article even a bit?
The reporter wrote what is. This is no different than what's been published elsewhere about Indonesia. Disbelieve the reporter if you want and think rosey thoughts that we're winning hearts and minds in Indonesia with our "compassionate" and excessive, IMO, aid packages. Just don't be shocked when you read that the PKS has won more seats in the next Indonesian election.
Indonesia is a corrupt country(nothing new that the FT reporter has dreamed up) with a strong drift to im-moderate Islam. Open your eyes.
Corruption + extremist Islamics + cash= bad result for the West in the future. And you can take that to the bank, not "hearts and minds" wishes and dreams you seem to carry in your heart about every Third World.
#29
If you disbelieve that aid from the US will win their hearts and minds, why are you so quick to believe that aid from the PKS will?
Probably because the PKS are people of their own ethnic stripe. They're not analysts, and as such, for them it's easier to deal with something known than it is to deal with something unknown.
#30
JB: the WSJ is pro-GWB and pro-GOP. To claim otherwise is missing the obvious point that GOP is comprised of businessmen and is business friendly, so who else would the WSJ support? Prior to the election, the WSJ was consistently on the side of the GPO and in GWB's corner.
The WSJ's editorial section is pro-GOP. The news sections are pro-Democrat. Read an Al Hunt (the former head of the news section) column sometime. Actually, read some of the Iraq articles sometime - they are well to the left of the New York Times.
JB: The FT is British owned. While it may have liberal opinion journalists, primarily like the WSJ, its main readership is the business minded sector. Neither the WSJ nor the FT are trying to rival the NYT or the Guardian or the Telegraph for readers. They are for the most part well written business journals for the layman, with a geopolitical overview because that impacts economies and business dealings.
The FT is like the Economist, that other news publication covering business and the economy. Both came out for John Kerry over GWB. They have come, over the years, to adopt the leftist view of the welfare state - that it is not a necessary evil, but that it is an objective good, going beyond even Edward Heath's (Britain's 70's PM) view that accomodations must be made.
Both the WSJ and the FT are reasonably well-written (i.e. good grammar and sentence construction, much like the Nation and Mother Jones) and are a useful source of raw information about breaking news events. But the liberal lens via which their non-business news articles are written means that the reader needs to figure out what these guys are peddling before deciding whether what they write is complete and in context.
#31
But the liberal lens via which their non-business news articles are written means that the reader needs to figure out what these guys are peddling before deciding whether what they write is complete and in context.
So ZF I'm confused.
Are you saying that this FT article is not accurately describing "what is" re: the PKS being an established presence in the Indonesian province of Aceh?
Are you implying the FT reporters are writing falsely about the Islamic extremists in Indonesia and are only publishing this imagined scenario to undercut the USA's efforts in disaster aid?
#32
The only tantrums I have had are between the strawmen you created in your own imagination. You keep acting as if I somehow think that the Indonesians are going to bow down before the altar of Christianity in gratitude of our aid. It's all just a debate taking place in your own mind and not reflective of anything I've actually written.
You are the one who has chosen to believe the three quotes as being proof positive that they will start the beheadings as soon as they are strong enough to lift a knife.
So let me ask you outright, Joeblow, do you think that the PKS has the most impressive and well organized relief effort in the area? And you've rationalized why you CHOOSE to accept one quote over another. Millions of people and you've come to your conclusion based on one quote which is contradicted by another. How can I but be impressed by your superior intellect?
#33
JB: Are you saying that this FT article is not accurately describing "what is" re: the PKS being an established presence in the Indonesian province of Aceh? Are you implying the FT reporters are writing falsely about the Islamic extremists in Indonesia and are only publishing this imagined scenario to undercut the USA's efforts in disaster aid?
I am not making any comments about this specific article. I am merely saying that the FT's past record of left-wing bias means that we should take anything it writes about world events with several large heapings of salt. The FT will show up with a an (anti-American) angle already figured out and take things out of context and use only the quotes that fit the angle even when the quotes are a tiny minority of the responses received, i.e. they are non-representative of the population at large. They will also slice and dice quotes to distort the meaning of what was being said.
I have traveled to the area and am familiar with a smattering of the local languages. I have encountered no real hostility except in reference to American foreign policy with respect to Israel (and now Afghanistan and Iraq), during which there were spirited debates, but no question of me being in physical danger.
#34
2b, sorry but I've pretty much reached my limit for discussing this article with you. IMO,from what I've seen, you're way too emotional, always wanting to re-interpret what other people have said or assign ulterior motives to posters who are not in lock step with the way you see things. Calm down and read my initial comments in #2. I was responding to Nat'l Guard's comment which basically dumped on the PKS's motives and implied that we should feel pity for these poor Indonesian people under the influence of the evil Islamic extremists.
My point was: why?
These people are not under any threat from the PKS. They even voted for them. They've taken aid from the PKS now and in the past. These people are opportunistic, now that they say money bags Uncle Sam on the horizon, some are turning up their noses at used clothes, never mind that they should be in "shock" from the fact that they just lost loved ones in the tsunami.
Then the discussion veared off with complaints about the FT reporters' anti-American left wing bias in recounting the situation in Aceh province so as to undercut the USA's aid efforts.
All I'm saying, 2 b, is that I think the FT's article is depicting the Indonesians in Aceh province and how they view the USand the PKS fairly accurately. I don't think this is false reporting. I think you're hoping it is false and biased so it'll make you feel all warm and fuzzy for sending all that taxpayer cash to Indonesia et al, and you don't want to hear or read anything less than rosey surfacing from that part of the world. Reality sucks.
#35
Postscript to my msg #34: yes,2b, I believe that the PKS's aid was probable well organized and impressive. Why not ? They have had plenty of practice over the years. Geographically Indonesia exists in what has been called the Ring of Fire in terms of natural disasters. You don't get that label for nothing. Also the PKS are Indonesians-they'd be on the spot and prepared to help unlike Western powers. I think you have in your mind that the PKS is comprised of non-Indonesian evil doers who have parachuted into Aceh province from afar and who are rivals to the Good Ship Lollipop USA. The PKS are Indonesians. We are the outsiders. Get it?
#36
and I'm just pointing out the facts. The reporter starts with a false premise - which you agreed was a "duh". You have chosen to believe one of two conflicting statements because it backs up your existing beliefs and to ignore the glaring flaw in the article that it is the US and not the PKS that has the greatest presence.
Your pessimistic logic seems to be that we should just leave them to die because if we help them, then they will hate us more than if we don't. I guess because that means there will be less of them to fight us later. You're just a real nice guy.
I choose to see what's really in the article ..a false premise and conflicting statements. You see only what supports your existing beliefs.
Aceh's quarrel with Indonesia goes back decades and involves far more than muslim hatreds or US policies for good or ill.
Lex is correct. The real problem began with the independent Muslim Sultanate establised in Aceh in 837 A.D. (or about that time). That was over 1100 years ago. Real Problems and Real Hatreds began there long before the U.S. even existed. (About 1400 - 1500 A/D.)
#38
You, 2b, don't want to see Indonesia for what it is and the possibility of what it may grow to be with a huge infusion of Western cash.
Why argue the fine points of the obvious big picture? The PKS are Indonesians and so they are poor and so their aid package is more humnble - but nonetheless the aid is delivered in an efficient fashionn because the PKS are Indonesians who live in the country where the disaster happened. Are you with me so far? While the US aid package is larger than the PKS's, we are outsiders. We are not Indonesians. Got it? Indonesians will have no more warm feelings for the USA's generosity 1 year from now than they had 1 year ago. Sorry but that's the way it is.
Your pessimistic logic seems to be that we should just leave them to die because if we help them, then they will hate us more than if we don't. I guess because that means there will be less of them to fight us later. You're just a real nice guy
Like I said, you can't resist grubbing around like a 2 year with personal insults. Actually since you ask, I am a real nice guy. But a rose colored glasses guy I am not.
I never ever said ignore the tragedy and let the Indonesians die. There you go putting words in my mouth. Stick to keeping straight what you say and believe. I said that we should have a reasonable amount of aid, not excessive as we are now are doing. That area of the world is very tricky for sending excessive amounts of cash to. Anyone who doesn't recognize the dangers of that region having access to an unlimited supply of cash is not just overly optimistic-they're d***.
#39
I'm with you, Joeblow. Just leave them to the mercy of the PKS. We are better off having them dead, suffering or beholden to the mosques. There is nothing we can do for these genetically dysfunctional brown folk. Best to cull the gene-pool now while we can.
#40
thanks, joeblow. I guess I missed that part of the article ...or anywhere else for that matter.....that the Marines are passing out cash. Gotta agree with you there....much danger in passing out cash. Someone should tell them to pass out food, water and medical supplies instead.
#41
LD2: Lex is correct. The real problem began with the independent Muslim Sultanate establised in Aceh in 837 A.D. (or about that time). That was over 1100 years ago. Real Problems and Real Hatreds began there long before the U.S. even existed. (About 1400 - 1500 A/D.)
That is correct. The Javanese, who rule Indonesia (Aceh is on Sumatra), converted to Islam from Hinduism from the 14th century onwards. Indonesia's national airline is called Garuda - a mythical monster from the Hindu pantheon. If the Acehnese had ruled Indonesia, that name would never have been adopted. The Acehnese are about as close to Arab extremism as you'll get in Indonesia. This is why I think I think helping them is akin to feeding rattlesnakes.
#42
that the Marines are passing out cash
You are hopeless, 2b. It's a waste of time discussing anything that requires a modicum of common sense with a person who has an emotional need to gain one-upmanship or have the last petty comment in a discussion. See ya.
#44
Sharp-eyed leftists have for decades known that the WSJ's news pages provide much fodder for their analyses.
But that would be true of any business publication. The prevailing left-wing economic meme is the Contradictions of Capitalism, which we all know herald the arrival of socialism and later the dictatorship of the proletariat.
#47
Oh oh too bad, ZF, the mother of "the milk of human kindness", 2b, is now going to pull out all her warm and fuzzy photos to disabuse you of the notion that 100% of Indonesians are not pure as driven snow. Be advised that 2b also makes very clever ( well clever to her at least) comments under the pseudonymn of "lol." You go girl, 2 b, just "believe" as they say at Disneyland or maybe "believe' comes from Alice in Wonderland...who knows...I do know that "believe" is an important watchword of breathless reality challenged optomists.
#48
another strawman, eh, joeblow? That I think that the Indonesians are pure as the driven snow? I've been consistent in my point that this article is based on a false premise and intentionally ignores any positive impact from the US aid. You've been all over the board and apparently are inable to argue my very consistent point and are left to deriding my desire to assist people in one of the worlds greatest disaters. Well, gee...gosh. I'm just crushed by that.
Joe Blowhard is what youâd expect from the name.
I think Zhang Fei may just have bad feeling toward the Indonesians due to how they tried to crush the autonomy of Timor, but I donât know for sure.
The isolationistic Social Darwinian themes youâre seeing here were previous addressed ad nauseam in this thread, just so you can get an idea of the reactions youâre likely to provoke. And yes, I could be wrong, but I think Joe Blowhard would be very happy if they would all oblige him and simply die . . .
#53
Report from a friend of a friend, in hostile territory in Sumatra: an Islamic song coming out of that region talks of the judgement of Allah because of terrorism. Not everybody in Aceh is a rattlesnake.
TGA is absolutely right. Take care of those who are suffering because it's the right thing to do.
"You have heard that it was said, 'love youre neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise upon the evil and the good." Jesus, in The Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5:43-44
#55
The discussion is too binary (too either/or) as in US aid will or will not affect the disposition of the populace. The answer is similar to what the US is encountering today with the Sunnis in Iraq:
- The hardcore will remain hardcore irrespective of US aid
- The open minded will be influence and appropriately grateful
- Those on the margins represent the battle for hearts and minds, and US aid WILL have an affect
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/05/2005 23:03 Comments ||
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#56
The PKS are Indonesians and so they are poor and so their aid package is more humnble - but nonetheless the aid is delivered in an efficient fashionn because the PKS are Indonesians who live in the country where the disaster happened.
And best of all, the PKS isn't spending any of joeblow's "hard-earned money".
SIDON: The extreme anti-Fatah Palestinian faction Jund al-Sham may soon collapse due to pressure from Fatah and Lebanese authorities, sources in the Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp said. Sources said the organization is on its way toward dismantlement, as disputes emerge between its members over plans for bombings and assassinations.
"Can't we all just get along?"
They stressed that some of its members, both Palestinians and Lebanese, are already wanted by Lebanese authorities.
"The refugee camp can no longer be a haven for criminals who claim to follow their religion to the extent of fanaticism," they added.
"Yeah, who do those criminals think they are? We got standards here in Ain al-Hellhole!"
According to the sources, the number of the organization members exceeds 20. The group is allegedly armed with bombs, missiles and hand grenades, as well as automatic weapons. They said organization members have taken refuge west of Ain al-Hilweh with their military leader Imad Yassin. Recent confrontations prodded Abu Youssif Sharqieh to announce his relinquishing of authority over Jund al-Sham.
"I quit!"
The organization was created last year in Ain al-Hilweh's neighborhood of Safsaf from among the ruins of the Isbat al-Nour group, which was eradicated upon the death of its leader Abdullah Shreidi, a fervent opponent of the Palestinian Fatah movement. Fatah accused Jund al-Sham of several bombings in the streets of the camp, which led to several clashes that were eventually settled by the mediation of religious figures in Sidon.The Dinnieh Group, another extremist group that clashed with the Lebanese Army, had allied with Jund al-Sham, adding to the group's problems with the authorities. Jund al-Sham later alienated itself further by issuing statements against Fatah and Hizbullah. Problems culminated in September 2004, when a shooting broke out between members of Fatah and Jund al-Sham that killed a member of the organization and injured Yassin. Jund al-Sham's information officer, Osama al-Shehabi, has also announced his resignation.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/05/2005 12:54:20 PM ||
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#1
I've got a bottle of $5.95 champagne left over from New Year's. I might have a party hat, too...
Posted by: Fred ||
01/05/2005 13:51 Comments ||
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Iran has agreed to give U.N. inspectors access to a huge military site that the United States alleges is linked to a secret nuclear weapons program, the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency said Wednesday. IAEA Director General Mohamed ElBaradei told The Associated Press he expected his experts to visit the Parchin site "within days or weeks."
"As soon as they have had time to clean up the place."
The agency has been pressing Tehran for months to be allowed to inspect the Parchin military complex, used by the Iranians to research, develop and produce ammunition, missiles and high explosives. In leaks to media last year, U.S. intelligence officials said that a specially secured site on the Parchin complex, about 20 miles southeast of Tehran, may be used in research on nuclear arms, specifically in making high explosive components for use in such weapons. The IAEA has not found any firm evidence to challenge Iranian assertions that its military is not involved nuclear activities. But an IAEA report in October expressed concern about published intelligence and media reports "relating to dual use equipment and materials which have applications ... in the nuclear military area." Diplomats said that phrasing alluded to Parchin.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/05/2005 9:18:58 AM ||
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BEIRUT — Waleed Junbulat, the Lebanese Druze leader and head of the Progressive Socialist Party, said he expected a bloodless coup to be staged in Lebanon during the current year. He made the statement during his campaign against the extension of incumbent President Emil Lahoud's presidency for an additional term, saying: "We hope that we do not come to the point in history whereby seven members of the parliament requested, under public pressure, President Bushara Al Khori to resign."
Here Wally, hold this bullseye over your chest. No, no, don't move, I'll be right back.
He said he was not perturbed that his political dossier will be exposed, as Samir Jagah, the Kataib leader was saying. If that happened, he would also demand investigations to be carried out on his father's assassination.
He had a bullseye on him too, as I recall.
Meanwhile, security sources said a bomb exploded under the car of a Junbulat supporter, who suffered minor injuries due to the blast. Investigations were carried out to discover whether the blast had any political or personal links. However, a number of assaults were carried out in the previous months. Junbulat's supporters, especially member of parliament Murwan Hamada, sustained severe injuries.
Now why would anyone suspect a Deep-Laid Plot in the Syrian colony of Lebanon?
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/05/2005 1:20:14 AM ||
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EFL
As many as 30,000 well-trained terrorists are actively operating throughout Iraq at the behest of former regime leaders based in Syria, Iraq's intelligence chief said in Wednesday edition of a pan-Arab newspaper. Maj. Gen. Mohammed Abdullah al-Shahwani told the daily newspaper Asharq Al-Awsat that the men, who are well-organized and trained, include former Baath party members, Islamic militant groups and unemployed former army members. "We officially call them terrorists," he told the London-based newspaper. "They are between 20,000 and 30,000 armed men operating all over Iraq, mainly in the Sunni areas where they receive moral support from about 200,000 people."
"Whether these attacks would increase or decrease, this depends on the elections result. But our expectation, as a security organ, is that the attacks will recede and end in one year," he said. Al-Shahwani said insurgent activities in Fallujah have receded since a U.S.-Iraqi military campaign last month but leading members fled to different areas. Al-Shahwani was pensioned by Saddam in 1984 and defected from Iraq in 1990. He formed an opposition military group backed by the U.S. administration. Saddam executed several members of his group, including al-Shahwani's three sons.
#1
So we've got 250,000 people sympathetic/actively involved in the terrorism. 7,000,000 males 14-65 years of age in Iraq. 20% Sunni makes 1.4 million potential terrorists. So roughly 1 or more out of 6 adult males in the Sunni triangle is involved in the violence. I doubt it will end in a year. If I had this guy's job, I sure wouldn't be planning on it.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
01/05/2005 20:55 Comments ||
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#2
Sounds like a MOAB solution to me. Send them to Allan in shoebox.
#3
Here's the problem for the bad guys: the Salafists and Baathists who are driving this are going to lose out when the elections go forward. The Sunni who participate will be greatly rewarded, and those opposed will be seen for what they are, Baathist thugs and Tawhid extremists, bascially criminal elements.
The continued turnout of Iraqis of all stripes for the Armed Forces and police, in the face of murderous terrorism, is a strong indicator that the bad guys will lose. The enrichment and economic recovery of the pacified areas (a vast maority of the country) are already becoming the envy of the Sunni - they see their negihbors gettingjbos, starting and running businesses, and being able to live a normal life, while they are dominated by Saudi Salafists, Syrian thugs, and their own worst criminal elements.
Support ius already waning, given that the criminal elements there have targeted and killed far more Muslims, destroyed far more of thier own property and caused far more misery of thier own peopel then they have done to Americans.
This big vulture is coming to rest, and if the US can finally seal off Syria and the bandits they are supporting, and pressure Iran (internal distractions there are quite nice at keeping the Black Turban gang there busy) in order to secure the borders - the insurgency will choke off and die - there is not enough local support to sustain it at these levels.
Add to that, there are undoubtedly more Fallujah/Najaf type pacification operations set to go in places in the Sunni Triangle - and there are already inroads being made in the Hafia street area of Baghdad (Sadr City).
And the best news of all is the Sadr himself is running a whole pile of candidates and doing a "get out the vote" routine - he's finally figured out he can get more by massing all those poor voters in his area than he can by fighting US troops and dying in droves. Like him or not, his guys will have a serious part in the future government of Iraq (meaning look for money and govt programs to be tossed into Sadr City - where he can control disbursement, like his father did).
Its not all as bad as the press would have you believe. This info is out ther in the public, but the US press simply doesnt report much of it because it doesnt fit their agenda (they are still trying to make this into Vietnam).
7,000,000 males, 20% are Sunni. This is their potential pool, 1.4 million. 200,000 PEOPLE are sympathizers, of which at most 1/2 are male. Thats 100,000 Males, of which there are 40% that are of the prime target demographic. Thats 80,000 in their recruiting pool.
In general, any time you tap more than 1/8 (15%) of your pool, you've broken sustainability (c.f. France 1917, Germany 1944).
So their sustainable level is 10,000. And that assumes they have a society of 200,000 actively supporting them with weaponry, finances, logistics, and training. As that 200,000 shrinks from demographic exhaustion (I.e. its not a self sustaining demographic - its not growing at all, and as peopel get tired of it, they are dropping off the supporters), so will the mazx sustainable pool.
Now with a maximum sustainable size of 10,000, they are at double to triple that in size. This means they will not be able to replce losses, and that finance, training and weaponry will be in sever short supply once they work through thier pre-war reserves and caches. Add to that the US/MNF emphasis on finding and eliminating caches, leadership and suppliers - and you have a system approaching a catastrophic failure point, much like the French Army in WW-1. And they will collapse for the same reasons the French did, unliek the Germans in WW2. The quality of officers and NCOs available is dismal for the criminals elements. Former street thugs and terrorists do not make good field commanders in terms of strategy and sustaining a large rebeliion. It takes military men with solid generalship skills - like Giap in Vietnam, or Von Manstien in Germany.
The math is not on thier side - and its only a matter of keepin g the pressure on untilthe tipping point is reached, and being smart enough to seeing that tipping point and going all-out on the offensive with everything we (MNF and Iraq) have at that point in time.
For an example of the collapse, see Afghnistan and the Taliban.
#5
The math is not on thier side - and its only a matter of keepin g the pressure on untilthe tipping point is reached, and being smart enough to seeing that tipping point and going all-out on the offensive with everything we (MNF and Iraq) have at that point in time. For an example of the collapse, see Afghnistan and the Taliban.
You should have stopped while you were ahead, OS, math is not on the Sunnis side.
Once the Shiites take control of government, and provided we don't meddle with our goody two shoes Geneva Convention/tolerance pap...the Shiites will set the Sunnis straight on what's what and who's who in short order.
The million dollar question is whether or not the Shiite dominated Iraqi government will end up being pro-US after they don't need our heavy lifting troops and our financial aid in a few years? Or will the religious thingey cause them to tilt to their Shiite religious persian cousins? That's what's in doubt.
As for news about Sadr...err is that supposed to make us feel happy? That slimeball caused the death of US troops in Najef. He should be under arrest and facing the death penalty and instead he's running for politicall office. That's not so wonderful, IMO, but maybe it's all in the eyes of the beholder.
#6
After the election we may see an Afghanistan like operation. The Kurds and Shiaâs in the army will use the assistance of Special Forces to call in air strikes as needed while the Sunni areas are depopulated. At some point political leadership in the Sunni area will seek to join the government. I would not want to be a young Sunni male in 2005.
Posted by: Canaveral Dan ||
01/05/2005 21:59 Comments ||
Top||
#7
Joe - you missed the point. I was pointing out tha math was NOT in the Sunni's side.
The math does not favor the insurrection - that way my whole point. The Sunnis and Tawhidists (Al Zarqawi) are going to lose. That's what I pointed out and you seem to ahve completely missed. You also have a flawed understanding of the culture there.
As for "Tater" (as we call him here), if he has truly chosen to "go legit", then he will be as shackled to the process as he could be - making him less and less of a threat for violence.
As for jailing him or killing him, that would have made him a martyr, and we'd be talking about 80% of the population as a base for the rebellion. Your emoitional response is understandable - its mine too, but its dead wrong. Reality says a "political" Sadr is better than a dead one, at this point in time. The time to take Sadr out is long past (should have been after he killed the cleric whose place he has usurped). All your wishing will not change the circumstances. As a wise ofl First Sgt one told me: Wish in 1 hand and sh*t in the other, see which fills up first.
And the Iraqis will NEVER defer to the Persians - they hate them - many there still remember the lives lost in the war against Iran,a nd they blame the Iranians, not Saddam.
Sistani knows this aversion to Iranians/persians - and is looking forward to moving the center of Shia muslim activity to Iraq - under the supervision of Iraqi Shia, who control the top religious shrines and schools - thats a ton of money and world-wide power, not local power limited to Iraqs borders.
Sistani knows the pitfalls inherent in trying to govern - he has a prime example of how not to do tings over in Iran, with al the unrest,e tc going on there. He is willing to claim the "moral high ground", and gripe about the bad government while not doing anything about it. That way he constantly is seen as "looking out for the little Moslem" without being stuck with actually DOING anything for them. He get s all the power without the responsibility. And his control of Shia Islam will be a big struggle for him and the Iraqis, much too big for him to divert too much into domestic politics except by proxy.
So your worries about an Iranian-style Islamic Republic are far overblown. As is your self-destructive vengance towrd Al Sadr.
#9
OS. Great post as usual. Certainly a key indicator is that guys are still lining up to join the Iraqi military and police. Also, I think that after the election, the realization that the insurgents are essentially destroying Iraq's wealth by attacking pipelines, government buildings, etc will be more widespread once it's crystal clear that oil revenues are no longer going to a kleptocracy.
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/05/2005 22:33 Comments ||
Top||
#11
I agree with Spook. The insurgents are increasingly being squeezed as we approach the January 30 elections. What is occurring is that the so-called 200,000 supporters are a heterogeneous lot who are confronting a fundamental decision: support the past or look ahead to their future. Those who don't vote have no voice and no future.
This squeeze is not lost on the insurgents themselves. The proliferation of bombings targets the real and growing threat to insurgents: the Iraqi National Guard and police. Yet more recruits are going into training and there are far more of them than their are foreign fighters and insurgents. The US is getting better at building the Iraqi forces, with Iraqi command-and-control and embedded US advisors.
The clock is running out on the insurgency. I suspect some SF actions are planned for Saddam leadership in Syria.
Finally, Spook is right too about the disregard Iraqi Shia have for Iranian (Perisan) Shia. The future Iraqi Shia, once in power, will pose a bad alternative for the theocracy in Iran. For decades the Iranian Shia have tried to annex southern Iraq, now the door is swinging in the other direction.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/05/2005 22:42 Comments ||
Top||
#12
Here's the problem for the bad guys: the Salafists and Baathists who are driving this are going to lose out when the elections go forward. The Sunni who participate will be greatly rewarded, and those opposed will be seen for what they are, Baathist thugs and Tawhid extremists, bascially criminal elements.
The continued turnout of Iraqis of all stripes for the Armed Forces and police, in the face of murderous terrorism, is a strong indicator that the bad guys will lose. The enrichment and economic recovery of the pacified areas (a vast maority of the country) are already becoming the envy of the Sunni - they see their negihbors gettingjbos, starting and running businesses, and being able to live a normal life, while they are dominated by Saudi Salafists, Syrian thugs, and their own worst criminal elements.
Support ius already waning, given that the criminal elements there have targeted and killed far more Muslims, destroyed far more of thier own property and caused far more misery of thier own peopel then they have done to Americans.
This big vulture is coming to rest, and if the US can finally seal off Syria and the bandits they are supporting, and pressure Iran (internal distractions there are quite nice at keeping the Black Turban gang there busy) in order to secure the borders - the insurgency will choke off and die - there is not enough local support to sustain it at these levels.
Add to that, there are undoubtedly more Fallujah/Najaf type pacification operations set to go in places in the Sunni Triangle - and there are already inroads being made in the Hafia street area of Baghdad (Sadr City).
And the best news of all is the Sadr himself is running a whole pile of candidates and doing a "get out the vote" routine - he's finally figured out he can get more by massing all those poor voters in his area than he can by fighting US troops and dying in droves. Like him or not, his guys will have a serious part in the future government of Iraq (meaning look for money and govt programs to be tossed into Sadr City - where he can control disbursement, like his father did).
Its not all as bad as the press would have you believe. This info is out ther in the public, but the US press simply doesnt report much of it because it doesnt fit their agenda (they are still trying to make this into Vietnam).
7,000,000 males, 20% are Sunni. This is their potential pool, 1.4 million. 200,000 PEOPLE are sympathizers, of which at most 1/2 are male. Thats 100,000 Males, of which there are 40% that are of the prime target demographic. Thats 80,000 in their recruiting pool.
In general, any time you tap more than 1/8 (15%) of your pool, you've broken sustainability (c.f. France 1917, Germany 1944).
So their sustainable level is 10,000. And that assumes they have a society of 200,000 actively supporting them with weaponry, finances, logistics, and training. As that 200,000 shrinks from demographic exhaustion (I.e. its not a self sustaining demographic - its not growing at all, and as peopel get tired of it, they are dropping off the supporters), so will the mazx sustainable pool.
Now with a maximum sustainable size of 10,000, they are at double to triple that in size. This means they will not be able to replce losses, and that finance, training and weaponry will be in sever short supply once they work through thier pre-war reserves and caches. Add to that the US/MNF emphasis on finding and eliminating caches, leadership and suppliers - and you have a system approaching a catastrophic failure point, much like the French Army in WW-1. And they will collapse for the same reasons the French did, unliek the Germans in WW2. The quality of officers and NCOs available is dismal for the criminals elements. Former street thugs and terrorists do not make good field commanders in terms of strategy and sustaining a large rebeliion. It takes military men with solid generalship skills - like Giap in Vietnam, or Von Manstien in Germany.
The math is not on thier side - and its only a matter of keepin g the pressure on untilthe tipping point is reached, and being smart enough to seeing that tipping point and going all-out on the offensive with everything we (MNF and Iraq) have at that point in time.
For an example of the collapse, see Afghnistan and the Taliban.
#14
Joe - you missed the point. I was pointing out tha math was NOT in the Sunni's side.
The math does not favor the insurrection - that way my whole point. The Sunnis and Tawhidists (Al Zarqawi) are going to lose. That's what I pointed out and you seem to ahve completely missed. You also have a flawed understanding of the culture there.
As for "Tater" (as we call him here), if he has truly chosen to "go legit", then he will be as shackled to the process as he could be - making him less and less of a threat for violence.
As for jailing him or killing him, that would have made him a martyr, and we'd be talking about 80% of the population as a base for the rebellion. Your emoitional response is understandable - its mine too, but its dead wrong. Reality says a "political" Sadr is better than a dead one, at this point in time. The time to take Sadr out is long past (should have been after he killed the cleric whose place he has usurped). All your wishing will not change the circumstances. As a wise ofl First Sgt one told me: Wish in 1 hand and sh*t in the other, see which fills up first.
And the Iraqis will NEVER defer to the Persians - they hate them - many there still remember the lives lost in the war against Iran,a nd they blame the Iranians, not Saddam.
Sistani knows this aversion to Iranians/persians - and is looking forward to moving the center of Shia muslim activity to Iraq - under the supervision of Iraqi Shia, who control the top religious shrines and schools - thats a ton of money and world-wide power, not local power limited to Iraqs borders.
Sistani knows the pitfalls inherent in trying to govern - he has a prime example of how not to do tings over in Iran, with al the unrest,e tc going on there. He is willing to claim the "moral high ground", and gripe about the bad government while not doing anything about it. That way he constantly is seen as "looking out for the little Moslem" without being stuck with actually DOING anything for them. He get s all the power without the responsibility. And his control of Shia Islam will be a big struggle for him and the Iraqis, much too big for him to divert too much into domestic politics except by proxy.
So your worries about an Iranian-style Islamic Republic are far overblown. As is your self-destructive vengance towrd Al Sadr.
#16
Here's the problem for the bad guys: the Salafists and Baathists who are driving this are going to lose out when the elections go forward. The Sunni who participate will be greatly rewarded, and those opposed will be seen for what they are, Baathist thugs and Tawhid extremists, bascially criminal elements.
The continued turnout of Iraqis of all stripes for the Armed Forces and police, in the face of murderous terrorism, is a strong indicator that the bad guys will lose. The enrichment and economic recovery of the pacified areas (a vast maority of the country) are already becoming the envy of the Sunni - they see their negihbors gettingjbos, starting and running businesses, and being able to live a normal life, while they are dominated by Saudi Salafists, Syrian thugs, and their own worst criminal elements.
Support ius already waning, given that the criminal elements there have targeted and killed far more Muslims, destroyed far more of thier own property and caused far more misery of thier own peopel then they have done to Americans.
This big vulture is coming to rest, and if the US can finally seal off Syria and the bandits they are supporting, and pressure Iran (internal distractions there are quite nice at keeping the Black Turban gang there busy) in order to secure the borders - the insurgency will choke off and die - there is not enough local support to sustain it at these levels.
Add to that, there are undoubtedly more Fallujah/Najaf type pacification operations set to go in places in the Sunni Triangle - and there are already inroads being made in the Hafia street area of Baghdad (Sadr City).
And the best news of all is the Sadr himself is running a whole pile of candidates and doing a "get out the vote" routine - he's finally figured out he can get more by massing all those poor voters in his area than he can by fighting US troops and dying in droves. Like him or not, his guys will have a serious part in the future government of Iraq (meaning look for money and govt programs to be tossed into Sadr City - where he can control disbursement, like his father did).
Its not all as bad as the press would have you believe. This info is out ther in the public, but the US press simply doesnt report much of it because it doesnt fit their agenda (they are still trying to make this into Vietnam).
7,000,000 males, 20% are Sunni. This is their potential pool, 1.4 million. 200,000 PEOPLE are sympathizers, of which at most 1/2 are male. Thats 100,000 Males, of which there are 40% that are of the prime target demographic. Thats 80,000 in their recruiting pool.
In general, any time you tap more than 1/8 (15%) of your pool, you've broken sustainability (c.f. France 1917, Germany 1944).
So their sustainable level is 10,000. And that assumes they have a society of 200,000 actively supporting them with weaponry, finances, logistics, and training. As that 200,000 shrinks from demographic exhaustion (I.e. its not a self sustaining demographic - its not growing at all, and as peopel get tired of it, they are dropping off the supporters), so will the mazx sustainable pool.
Now with a maximum sustainable size of 10,000, they are at double to triple that in size. This means they will not be able to replce losses, and that finance, training and weaponry will be in sever short supply once they work through thier pre-war reserves and caches. Add to that the US/MNF emphasis on finding and eliminating caches, leadership and suppliers - and you have a system approaching a catastrophic failure point, much like the French Army in WW-1. And they will collapse for the same reasons the French did, unliek the Germans in WW2. The quality of officers and NCOs available is dismal for the criminals elements. Former street thugs and terrorists do not make good field commanders in terms of strategy and sustaining a large rebeliion. It takes military men with solid generalship skills - like Giap in Vietnam, or Von Manstien in Germany.
The math is not on thier side - and its only a matter of keepin g the pressure on untilthe tipping point is reached, and being smart enough to seeing that tipping point and going all-out on the offensive with everything we (MNF and Iraq) have at that point in time.
For an example of the collapse, see Afghnistan and the Taliban.
#18
Joe - you missed the point. I was pointing out tha math was NOT in the Sunni's side.
The math does not favor the insurrection - that way my whole point. The Sunnis and Tawhidists (Al Zarqawi) are going to lose. That's what I pointed out and you seem to ahve completely missed. You also have a flawed understanding of the culture there.
As for "Tater" (as we call him here), if he has truly chosen to "go legit", then he will be as shackled to the process as he could be - making him less and less of a threat for violence.
As for jailing him or killing him, that would have made him a martyr, and we'd be talking about 80% of the population as a base for the rebellion. Your emoitional response is understandable - its mine too, but its dead wrong. Reality says a "political" Sadr is better than a dead one, at this point in time. The time to take Sadr out is long past (should have been after he killed the cleric whose place he has usurped). All your wishing will not change the circumstances. As a wise ofl First Sgt one told me: Wish in 1 hand and sh*t in the other, see which fills up first.
And the Iraqis will NEVER defer to the Persians - they hate them - many there still remember the lives lost in the war against Iran,a nd they blame the Iranians, not Saddam.
Sistani knows this aversion to Iranians/persians - and is looking forward to moving the center of Shia muslim activity to Iraq - under the supervision of Iraqi Shia, who control the top religious shrines and schools - thats a ton of money and world-wide power, not local power limited to Iraqs borders.
Sistani knows the pitfalls inherent in trying to govern - he has a prime example of how not to do tings over in Iran, with al the unrest,e tc going on there. He is willing to claim the "moral high ground", and gripe about the bad government while not doing anything about it. That way he constantly is seen as "looking out for the little Moslem" without being stuck with actually DOING anything for them. He get s all the power without the responsibility. And his control of Shia Islam will be a big struggle for him and the Iraqis, much too big for him to divert too much into domestic politics except by proxy.
So your worries about an Iranian-style Islamic Republic are far overblown. As is your self-destructive vengance towrd Al Sadr.
Guess Sammy ain't so "secular" anymore, huh?
Internationally isolated and fearful of losing power, Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) made an astonishing move in the last years of his secular rule: He invited into Iraq (news - web sites) clerics who preached an austere form of Islam that's prevalent in Saudi Arabia.
He also let extremely religious Iraqis join his ruling Baath Socialist Party. Saddam's bid to win over devout Muslims planted the seeds of the insurgency behind some of the deadliest attacks against U.S. and Iraqi forces today, say Saudi dissidents and U.S. officials.
"Saddam invited Muslim scholars and preachers to Iraq for his own survival," said Saad Fagih, a London-based Saudi dissident. "He convinced them that Shiites are the danger."
Shiite Muslims make up about 60 percent of Iraq's 26 million people and they strongly support planned Jan. 30 elections, hoping to reverse the longtime domination of Iraq's Sunni minority. The insurgency is thought to be run mostly by Sunnis who fear losing power.
Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi — or Salafi — brand of Sunni Islam began trickling into Iraq in the mid-1990s, at the height of punishing international sanctions for Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. They came from Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries, including some returning Iraqis who adopted the Salafi ideology in exile.
A Wahhabi mosque was even built in the Shiite holy city of Karbala at a time when Shiites were banned from worshipping their religion freely. Signs of strict Islamic codes also began appearing, such as a growing number of women wearing veils.
The words "God is great" were added to the Iraqi flag after Saddam's defeat in the 1991 U.S.-led Gulf War (news - web sites). He closed bars and nightclubs to appease Muslims.
Around the same time, several militant Islamic groups, including Jund al-Islam (Islam's Soldier), started taking root in the mountains of northern Iraq along the Iranian border.
After the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the United States, these Salafi groups reorganized under Ansar al-Islam, which had ties with Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)'s al-Qaida and with Jordanian militant leader Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi, a leader of the current insurgency.
Ansar al-Islam, which adhered to a rigid Salafi ideology, seems to have been destroyed during the initial days of the U.S.-led invasion when its bases were attacked by American forces in March 2003. Hundreds of fighters were killed or scattered, many reportedly fleeing to Iran.
But the Ansar al-Sunnah Army — believed to be an outgrowth of Ansar al-Islam — then surfaced. The group recently claimed responsibility for the December suicide bombing at a U.S. base in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul, killing 22 people, mostly American troops. Thought to be the deadliest Iraqi-run group, it also has been behind a string of beheadings and the twin suicide bombings of Kurdish party headquarters in Irbil last February.
Al-Zarqawi formed his own group, which is suspected of being behind a campaign of beheadings, kidnappings, mortar attacks and car bombings, including one that hit the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad in August 2003, killing 22 people.
On Tuesday, al-Zarqawi's group claimed responsibility for assassinating the governor of Baghdad province and six of his bodyguards.
Al-Zarqawi recently announced he was merging his Tawhid and Jihad group with al-Qaida, and changed its name to al-Qaida in Iraq. Bin Laden may have taken him up on the offer, according to an audiotape broadcast in December in which a speaker the CIA (news - web sites) believes was bin Laden called al-Zarqawi his lieutenant in Iraq and said Muslims there should "listen to him."
"Thanks to American propaganda, this group has achieved the glory and fame that it lacked and always strived for," said Yasir al-Sirri, an Egyptian and strict Muslim in London.
But he dismissed American claims that al-Qaida and Saddam were linked.
"From the start, al-Zarqawi wasn't part of al-Qaida. Not everyone who was in Afghanistan (news - web sites) was affiliated to al-Qaida," said al-Sirri, who supports the Iraqi insurgency.
There's no question, however, that Saddam invited Islamic extremists into Iraq.
The core insurgency is Iraqi Sunni Muslims — a volatile mix of groups and freelancers who include loyalists of the former Baath Party, Fedayeen militiamen, former Republican Guard and intelligence agents, Islamic extremists, paid common criminals and disaffected Iraqis.
The Sunni resistance at first wanted to use al-Zarqawi as a tool to draw support for their cause, according to Fagih, who maintains contacts in Saudi Arabia.
"Foreigners came and were ready to kill themselves," he said, but the Sunni resistance discovered it couldn't control al-Zarqawi. "He's like an unguided missile."
Now, U.S. officials say it is local insurgents — essentially former regime elements and Islamic extremists, and not foreign fighters — who are proving difficult to defeat.
"If in Iraq there were only al-Zarqawi or al-Qaida, the situation would be manageable," a U.S. government official based in Iraq said on condition of anonymity. "It would be just like any country with terrorist problems. Al-Zarqawi and al-Qaida wouldn't have the effect of what we are seeing now."
He said most of the suicide car bombings, which usually kill Iraqi civilians, police and national guardsmen, are carried out by foreign fighters, while the former regime elements have been largely involved in planting bombs to attack U.S. convoys.
The Iraqi extremists who joined the Baath Party under Saddam and are now engaged in the insurgency are not necessarily tied to al-Qaida, the U.S. official said.
"Exactly who they are tied to or what — like other international terrorists — is very fluid," the official said. "Foreign fighters have ties to al-Qaida. They all help each other one way or another — whether it's financial, logistical planning. ... They share training camps used by differing groups at different times."
The camps, the official alleged, were financed mostly by rich former Baathists who fled to Syria just before the war — charges the Syrian government has denied.
Iraq's Sunni neighbors such as Syria, Saudi Arabia and Jordan were against the war that toppled Saddam — partly because they feared it could result in Shiite domination.
"They didn't want the Sunni hegemony uprooted. They wanted to keep the status quo," said Hamza al-Hassan, a Shiite Saudi dissident writer in London. "Now, some Arab fighters might be joining the insurgency to protect Sunni power."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/05/2005 5:00:06 PM ||
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#1
Excuse me, but I don't recall the 9/11 Commission or the Senate Intelligence Committee venturing into these waters. This analysis covers more ground and fills more intelligence holes that either of those bodies.
Saddam has his own version of Taleban in operation, along with AQ affiliates. Dulfer demonstrated he was boning up for a resurgence of WMD development. Case closed.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/05/2005 22:54 Comments ||
Top||
Send the vibe over, Richard. Send the vibe...
Jerusalem - A pro-peace group is hoping that a potent mix of Hollywood glamour and religion will motivate Palestinians to vote in next week's presidential elections - and their star attraction is actor Richard Gere. Gere, together with an Islamic cleric and a Greek Orthodox Church official, recorded a public service announcement calling on the Palestinians to vote in Sunday's election to replace Yasser Arafat. They couldn't find some sellout rabbi?
"Hi, I'm Richard Gere and I'm speaking for the entire world. We're with you during this election time. It's really important: get out and vote," Gere says, according to a transcript of the announcement. Gere ends the 80-second announcement, produced by the pro-peace group One Voice, with an appeal in Arabic: "Take part in the elections." ...and be nice to gerbils and other living things and all that... stuff.
The ad is to be aired on Palestinian TV and Arabic satellite channels in the next few days, said Fathi Darwish, a Palestinian director of One Voice.The group tries to harness the power of ordinary citizens to push for the creation of a Palestinian state to live peacefully next to Israel. The people power is backed by Hollywood stars like Danny DeVito and Rhea Perlman. Its Internet website claims support from actors Brad Pitt, Jennifer Aniston and Edward Norton. And I'll bet they feel damn good about it. Almost as good as they feel because USC won last night.
"We chose Gere because he believes that freedom and liberty are for everyone," Darwish said. "He is a known supporter of the Palestinian people." Gere has made a number of visits to Israel and the Palestinian areas in the past few years. A spokesperson for Gere had no immediate comment. Oh, shit! Will this be on the news?
Turnout for the presidential elections, the first held since 1996, is expected to be high. Last week, European Union observers said voter registration exceeded all expectations.
Joining Gere in the announcement are Sheik Taissir Tamimi, the head of the Islamic court in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and Atallah Hanah, spokesperson for the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem. In the broadcast transcript, Tamimi says: "To the Palestinian people it is a vital process, national necessity and religious obligation." Hanah says in the ad: "We want democracy in our country, a place with freedom, and freedom of speech." Hanah and Tamimi recorded the broadcast together, while Gere made the recording in the US. Hey, all you camp dwellers in the West Bank! Richard Gere here from the beach in Malibu! Like, make sure you get out there and vote, you know...
While Gere was chosen for his star appeal, it's not clear how much celebrity status he has among the Palestinians."I've never heard of him before," Hanah said of his co-star. Not important, Hanah. The important thing is that Richard feels good about himself.
Posted by: tu3031 ||
01/05/2005 10:54:19 AM ||
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Actor Richard Gere has recorded a TV commercial urging Palestinians to vote in their election Sunday. oh thank goodness. our prayers have been answered.
In a transcript obtained by The Associated Press, he said: "Hi, I'm Richard Gere, and I'm speaking for the entire world. We're with you during this election time. It's really important: Get out and vote." I know that when I need to make important decisions in life, I look to bad actors for guidance.
Appearing with Gere in the spot are the head of the Islamic court in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and the spokesman for the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem. otherwise known as Moe, Larry and Curley
The spot is apparently an attempt to use both glamour and religion er, which one was the "glamour" one?
to get Palestinians to the polls. It will air soon. It's unclear what kind of sway Gere may have with Palestinians. actually, it's pretty clear to me: none.
One man who appeared with him in the spot said he'd never heard of Gere. tell 'em Gere's a Jooo. let's see how that stirs the pot!
The ad will be aired on Palestinian TV and Arabic satellite channels in the next few days. finally, a solution to the problems in the middle east.
Posted by: PlanetDan ||
01/05/2005 10:09:58 AM ||
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#1
If I could talk to the Paleos, I would say: "Quit being an idiot!"
#5
To think that anyone cares what this twit has to say. I don't think he even cares. Why do we put this stuff in print. The only things that do care is the rodent population of Southern California. Squeak, Squeak.
Two individuals with criminal records were killed in separate incidents of 'crossfire' between their gangs and police in the capital and adjacent Keraniganj early yesterday. Alauddin, 32, a listed criminal of Lalbagh Police Station and his 10 to 15 cohorts fired gunshots on a team of Lalbagh police when they went to Shahid Nagar Embankment at about 12:30am to arrest Alauddin. As police returned fire, Alauddin received three bullets to the head and back and died on the spot, police said. The victim's family members, however, said police arrested Alauddin from his father-in-law's house at Batta-Mosque Lane. "The police killed my brother in cold blood," Alauddin's elder brother Abdul Motaleb told newsmen at the Mitford hospital morgue.
"Crossfire" seems to be the leading cause of death for people in police custody in Bangladesh.
The duty officer of Lalbagh Police Station yesterday said Assistant Sub-Inspector Aminul Islam, shot in the leg during the incident, was undergoing treatment at Rajarbagh Police Lines Hospital. But, the hospital's admission register showed that Aminul was not admitted there yesterday. Locals said Alauddin was the owner of a cloth-shop, 'Lamia Gift Corner', at Killar Moar. Meanwhile, hundreds of businessmen brought out a procession to celebrate his death and distributed sweetmeats among themselves.
"Hurray! Alauddin is dead! Sweets all around!"
Police said Alauddin, an accused in four cases under arms and explosives acts, was also an accused in the robbery at Rangs-Toshiba showroom in Lalbagh on Sunday. Police seized one gun, one pipe-gun and six cartridges from the spot.
Anwar Hossain alias Baba Anwar, 36, was killed in a 'firefight' between his aides and police at about 4:00am near Nuru Market at Aganagar. Anwar was a listed criminal of Keraniganj Police Station and was accused in 12 cases, one of murder, police said. Keranigonj police arrested Anwar from a five-storied building at Abdul Hadi Lane in Kotwali area. Following his statement, police took him to Charkaliganj of the upazila to nab his accomplices who opened fire on the law enforcers, killing Anwar.
See what I mean about "crossfire"?
Police arrested one of his accomplices, Jonny and his wife Nasima. Police seized a pipe gun, a revolver, a one-shooter and 26 bullets from the spot.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/05/2005 10:03:30 AM ||
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A suspected bomb-bearer was killed in a lynch-mob attack in the city''s Pallabi area Tuesday, reports UNB. The dead was identified as Sumon, 20, who was allegedly carrying two hand-made bombs. Sources said Sumon tried to flee exploding one bomb when police chased him on suspicion in the afternoon. "Local people caught and gave him a mass beating. Another hand-made bomb was recovered from his possession during the melee," police said. He was declared dead on arrival at Dhaka Medical College Hospital.
The Bangladesh Iron Rod Brigade rides again!
Posted by: Steve ||
01/05/2005 10:00:02 AM ||
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#1
Another successful operation by the 93rd Volunteer Infantry.
Posted by: Mike ||
01/05/2005 10:10 Comments ||
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#2
More, please. :-D
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
01/05/2005 11:31 Comments ||
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#3
The right is to "bear arms." Who needs guns, which have to be maintained, have bullets purchased separately, and are anyway mainly used for gun sex, when your cheap, maintenance-free iron rod is so much handier?
Just another day in sunny Bangladesh Bandarban:Security forces fought a three-hour fierce gunbattle with a band of criminals in a remote hilly area in Bandarban early yesterday exchanging around 500 shots. The criminals used sophisticated weapons including rocket launchers during the shootout in Lulain, Tumbru, Hlapai Mukh and Latajhiri areas, sources said. Army and other official sources confirmed the incident but would not disclose details about it. It is unclear whether any one was injured or dead in the gunfight. A tense situation was prevailing in the area, 15 kilometres off Bandarban, after the battle and communications with the district headquarters remained snapped until last night.
Local people said they woke up at about 3:00am hearing the sounds of heavy firing which continued till early in the morning creating panic in the area. The gunfight occurred when a gang of criminals fired gunshots at the army personnel patrolling the area, officials said on condition of anonymity. The criminals fired at least 250 rounds of shots and the army men replied with as many bullets to disperse the thugs, the officials added. Another source said the members of the security forces and the police, acting on a tip-off, encircled a hideout of the criminals on Monday afternoon. When they started operation at 2:00am yesterday, the criminals fled firing shots from heavy weapons.
Police said the army and criminals exchanged around 200 shots in another gunfight on October 22 last year at Tarachha near yesterday's shootout spot. Two army personnel and three criminals were injured in the gunfight. The criminals from their hilly hideouts launched armed attacks on the security forces on at least four occasions during the few months and killed a lance corporal of the army at Jamchhari in the district on November 21. On August 26 last year, the army seized a huge cache of firearms and ammunition from a deep forest in Lulain area.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/05/2005 9:56:04 AM ||
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Barred from participating in Sunday's election to replace Yasser Arafat, Palestinian refugees in Lebanon fear being left in the political wilderness when the new leadership comes to power. "Despite the presidential elections, the millions of Palestinians of the diaspora remain without representation," the secretary general of the late Arafat's Fatah movement in Lebanon, Sultan Abul Aynain, told AFP. But a 30-year-old refugee born in Lebanon to a family from Tiberias in northeastern Israel, Ahmed Yussef, said the death of Arafat in November had left many feeling cast off by the Palestinian leadership as well. "While Yasser Arafat was still alive we knew that we would not be abandoned because he was the one who made Palestinian refugees into a people that asserted its national rights," he said.
And took all the money, Ahmed, remember that.
"Now that he is no longer there, his pragmatic heir-apparent, Mahmoud Abbas, is in a position to abandon us to our fate in the medium term whatever he says in principle."
Well sure, and you would too if you could. It's in your culture.
Scattered between Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, as well as the occupied territories, Palestinian refugees are estimated to number 4.2 million according to UN figures published at the end of 2003.
Funny, I do't remember that many people running in 1948. What a strange situation, 65 years of UN stewardship and they have more refugees than ever ...
Israel opposes the return of refugees, which it argues would tip the ethnic balance of the Jewish state. The refugees and their descendants now live under precarious conditions on the fringes of Lebanese society, fearing that the elections will seal a new era that permanently excludes them.
"And then where will we go? Mauritania? Don't make me laugh!"
"The Palestinian leadership will be subjected to enormous pressure on the part of the United States for them to sacrifice the right of return," said Ahmad Sawr at the Ein el-Hilweh camp, Lebanon's biggest. "We need leadership that defends us and is not subject to Western pressure or held hostage by the Israeli army, like our late president was surrounded in the Muqataa," he said, referring to Arafat's Ramallah headquarters.
"We need leadership that will cower in one position, fondle a red binder, make off with the boodle, and keep that fat sow of a wife far away from us!"
Fatah representatives say that if Abbas is elected January 9, he will keep the title of Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) chief while also assuming the new mantle of president of the Palestinian Authority. Aynain of Fatah said the PLO was "the only authority that represents the Palestinians in the territories (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) and those of the diaspora" of whom about 400,000 live in Lebanon. "It would have been better to find a means to have the refugees vote in the presidential election, but if he is elected, Mahmud Abbas will be considered president not only of the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza but also of those of the diaspora because he is PLO chief," Fathi Abu Ardat, the PLO representative in Ain el-Helweh, insisted. But his assurances have not convinced the Islamic militants of Hamas, which has always remained outside the PLO framework. "The Palestinian presidential election is happening on the basis of the Oslo accords (in 1993) of which Mahmud Abbas was one of the architects," said Abu Hassan, a Hamas leader based in southern Lebanon. "Palestinian refugees are not taken into account in the process and the Authority president does not represent them."
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/05/2005 1:12:49 AM ||
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#1
Any other people who had been homeless for 65 years in the modern world would have moved out of refuge camps and into a modern state outside of the middle east. All I can think is it is a genetic defect in those people who claim to be from Palestine. They have never been there, were not born there and will hate it there if they ever get the chance to go to the west bank (fat chance those there will let them in.) It just amazes me. I would have got up on my hind legs and walked out ages ago.
#2
Barred from participating in Sundayâs election to replace Yasser Arafat, Palestinian refugees in Lebanon fear being left in the political wilderness when the new leadership comes to power.
It's practically a certainty that those still in the West Bank and Gaza are bent on continuing the current Arafart-inspired "struggle" for the near future, so I don't see what all the fretting is about. I mean, it's not like these "refugees" have something else in mind, like a peaceful resolution to their little dilemma....right?
Original contribution. Somebody left it here. I know, it should be on the opinion page...
Yeah. Better complain to the site owner. Line forms over there to the left.
Don't waste your time, he never listens
Republicans must hate this country. What else would explain their blatent disregard for all the things which make the United States of America so great. These things include the garunteed rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
There are no guarantees of result. The Declaration of Independence finds that we're endowed by our Creator with "certain inalienable rights, among them life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Those are things God gives us, in Jefferson's words. What we do with them is up to us. We can make our lives things of beauty, inspirations to others. We can make our lives a living hell for ourselves and those around us, until someone can't take it anymore and bumps us off. Most people manage something somewhere between the two extremes, with most of us trying for the thing of beauty ideal and falling short. But it's up to us as individuals, not up to the government to ensure the outcome. That's the difference between Dems of all stripes and Republicans — conservatives, neo-conservatives, and libertarians.
This great country of ours stands above the rest because we have tolerance and freedom of speech and religion. It is these freedoms which the Republicans seem to despise the most.
Cite a few examples. While you're doing it, keep in mind that you're on a blog that pokes fun at every group we can find, to include Republicans, run by an agnostic who's never faced a moment's religious discrimination.
These Republicans seem to think that this is "Their" country.
We live here. We live by our values. It's our country. Feel free to live here with us, and adhere to your values. (Cue Woody Guthrie...) But don't try to force the rest of us to conform to your values. Your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose.
They also seem to think that those whose opinions differ with theirs should leave the country.
Stay or go. It's your choice.
There is no reason for this, as this country has survived for over 200 years with diversity of opinions.
And continues to somehow muddle along...
An example of the symptom is the Conservative media, including FOX and Rush Limbaugh who thrive on conflict and name-calling tactics. Bill O'Riellys shouting "Shut Up, Shut Up!" is a prime example. He did not want to hear any oposing opinions.
He also has the habit of referring to his guests as "pinheads" to their faces when they're particularly egregious. I'd never do that, preferring as I do to go behind their backs. Have you ever read The Nation? Have you ever listened to Air America? Have you ever been at a function where Chevy Chase or Whoopie Goldberg was the master/mistress of ceremonies? Fox News presents news, and most of its presenters have opinions. So does See BS news, ABC, NBC, CNN, and MSNBC. These presenters' opinions range from mildly liberal to stupidly liberal. National Public Radio, supported with our tax dollars, is usually stupefyingly liberal.The gripe that liberals have with Fox, as well as Limbaugh, Hannity, Laura Ingraham and all the others is that people listen to them. Limbaugh puts on an ego show, but he takes facts and discusses them, interprets them, and is usually right in how things are going to turn out. Such liberals as I've had the misfortune to listen to put on their own ego shows, take positions, discuss them, and usually turn out to be wrong. If your analysis isn't consistently predictive, then it's probably wrong. So maybe you should listen to our side of the spectrum now and then. I'd suggest starting with Jonah Goldberg, at National Review, or Mark Steyn at the Independent, or David Warren's website. Or reading Rantburg on a daily basis. Amazing, how predictable some things are.
It is obvious that the radical right hates the freedoms of this great nation.
As I've just explained, it's not in the least obvious. What's obvious is that we've got a free press and that every end of the political spectrum is free to use it. Complaining because nobody agrees with you — or that 52 percent of the country doesn't agree with you — isn't going to help things. But then, I always thought Spock made more sense than McCoy.
They are attempting a Jihad against the Constitution of the USA.
By demanding it's strict interpretation? Come now!
These 'nut-jobs' are trying to add hate-speech into the constition.
First I've heard of it...
They are supportive of policies which encourage torture and disinformation.
Ahhh... You're referring, no doubt, to the horrors of Guantanamo. Y'see, Guantanamo is chock full of Bad Guys nabbed on the battlefield in Afghanistan. What we tried to do was sort out which ones were Taliban cannon fodder and which ones were al-Qaeda hard boyz. Under the Geneva Conventions, which I'm guessing you've never read, they could have been shot on the spot since they were conducting military operations out of uniform. They are not entitled to the same treatment as prisoners of war. The Germans, Russians, and yes, even the Americans, shot partisans — that's the technical term for them — in the Second World War. They really aren't entitled to the same treatment as POWs. You'll notice that we didn't ship uniformed soldiers captured in Iraq to Guantanamo for internment.
There is a difference between "torture" and mere "rough" or even "harsh" treatment. Since these beauzeaux killed 3000 of my countrymen in an unprovoked sneak attack it doesn't tug at my heartstrings that their treatment might occasionally be "harsh."
As for your complaint about disinformation, that's a valid tool to be used in conducting warfare. As the most famous example, I'd point to Patton's phantom army prior to the Normandy invasion. You have no "right" to know military secrets, or to access to sensitive information. There are declassification rules and procedures in effect so that 30 years from now you can look over the archives — but not while the information is militarily or diplomatically useful.
These vile creatures are trying to usurp the power of the people.
The people spoke in the last election. Your guy lost. Have they changed their mind?
The Constitution of the USA was written to provide a stable and pragmatic government, not a power-hungry king, yet these modern day Fascists are determined to undermine these goals.
Fascism, as I've pointed out here before, is a coherent political system. Its prime tenet is that of the corporate state. It accepts the existence of fairly rigid social classes — something that doesn't loom large in the United States — which are controlled and guided by an all-powerful Leader. Street violence, roving bands of fascisti, was integral to making Fascism work; those were the Blackshirts in Italy and the Brownshirts in Germany. There were also other colors of shirts in other countries of Europe, until they ran out of colors. None of these things are to be found in the U.S.A. right now, though they are characteristic of Baathism. We're fighting against those roving bands of fascisti right this moment, as they kill people to enforce the will of their Fearless Leader. Formerly Fearless Leader was Saddam, nowadays it's Zarqawi. They don't sing the Horst Wessel Song or the Inno dei Fascisti anymore, but they'll be willing to quote you a few verses of the Koran before cutting off your head.
Why do Republicans hate America so much? They must hate our freedoms. Freedom is a concept that the Republicans hate.
You've proceeded from "they must" — a conditional statement — to "they do" without offering any proof...
Diversity and Freedom are looked down upon, and ultimately the Republicans would like to destroy those freedoms.
Republicans enjoy their freedoms quite as much and possibly more than anybody else.
These hate-filled Republicans are the first to claim that the Democrats hate America. I am a Democrat, and I am a patriot.
Ahah. Do you have a definition of "patriot"? Does it include fighting wars to preserve our society?
I will not bend down nor stop talking no matter what. I have a natural right to express my opinions, and those who would like to shut me up can leave this great country.
But you just said it was the Republicans who were trying to run people out? I'm so confused...
I am American and proud, but I am so sorry that the country has a plurality of hate-filled bigots and imbeciles who didn't spend the time in school to learn that America is great because of its diversity and freedom, not in spite of them.
I'm not too sure how much time you spent in school. Most of us here spent the requisite amount of time to earn a diploma, then a bachelor's degree, and probably a master's degree in some subject or another. I suspect there are a few doctorates, though nobody's come right out and 'fessed up. Some of us are lawyers and engineers or in the medical field. Most of us have lived in foreign climes and many of us are multilingual. So most of us aren't ignorant, and the ones who are move on to some other site after awhile. They can't take the witty repartee — too many jokes go over their heads or PD calls them names until they look for greener pastures. You seem to be having difficulty believing that there are people with 3-digit IQs who could disagree with what you see as self-evident truths.
I'm a linguist by training, not an engineer, but I'd suggest that if the facts don't match your theory, then your theory's probably wrong. (Frank, you can check me on that...) Assuming you're still in school, I'd first sign up for a course in modern European political theory, if you can find one that's not taught by a Marxist. That'll at least teach you something about Fascism. I'd take some social psych classes, especially the ones that deal in Groupthink, and a mass communications class. And I'd sign up for a course in logic, if you can find one. I'm not even sure they teach it anymore. Buy yourself a copy of David Hackett Fischer's Historians' Fallacies and read it from cover to cover — you don't have to remember all the terms, you'll recognize the situations when they arise in discourse. Keep the book, never throw it away, and reread it again in six months. And keep in mind that Fischer makes some of the same errors he describes when he's writing as an historian.
Then — but only after I'd done the things I just suggested — I'd go on a reading binge. Read The Nation. Read National Review. Read The New Republic and the Weekly Standards. Apply what you've learned about fallacious thought to the articles as you read them. Read the daily press — lots of hard news articles — and try to fit what's happening into any patterns you might see emerging. Try to guess what's going to happen next. Make sure you get lots of foreign news sources in there, so you're not getting a purely American perspective. Expand your horizons from Daily Kos to include other web sites, like this one but also many, many others.
Keep in mind that mere disagreement with your opinion doesn't mean that the other person is evil or even stoopid. They may be misinformed, or they may be better informed than you and have arrived at their opinions legitimately. The wider your own field of knowledge is, the easier it becomes to decide which applies. It's only when you're willing to change your opinion when proven wrong that the opinions you hold become legitimate.
#1
Hello, Proud Democrat, and welcome to Rantburg. It looks like you put some time into writing this. Most "Proud Democrats" usually just jump right into comments with both guns blazing, so good on you for that.
I agree with most of what Fred (that's the fellow with the yellow highlighter) has to say but I come at the Rep/Dem/red/blue divide from a slightly different angle.
I vote Republican because ever since 9/11, I have been learning what our enemies are saying and thinking.
Yes, America and the Western world in general have enemies. Well-motivated, resourceful, and dedicated enemies. We jest here about their "Stupid Jihadi Tricks" and work accidents, but radical Islam is no laughing matter.
If you do not accept that, then you will continue to lose every election for the rest of the 21st century.
You begin with an opinion and then stack one after another atop it and, apparently, believe you have created a grand edifice of oratory and unassailable logic. You have committed the twin sins of induction and stacking. Your pennance is to stand atop a really big pile of your logic so that you're really close to a high-tension power line. Then do that induction thingy you like so much again. If you do this correctly, you will be free of the urge to post another article. Thank you for your input - and Good Luck. We'll keep an eye out for the bright flash of success.
Oh, and don't be so Proud, I'm embarassed for you.
#4
Oh, Gad, for a minute there I thought I had taken a Left turn to the Democratic UnderbellyGround.
I reckon that since the first born in the New Year has occurred, it only seems fitting to read about the Liberal afterbirth.
Funny thoough, I don't recall any of the Republicans threatening to bolt to Canada or Europe or whatever after the election. No, the Liberiods will stay in the US, turn blue, and make covert postings on enlightened web sites. Have they encountered penis envy?
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/05/2005 1:03 Comments ||
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#5
Sheesh. Where do liberals get this fascination with straw-man arguments? None of what this clown attributes to Republicans bears any resemblance to reality.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
01/05/2005 1:06 Comments ||
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#6
To 'Proud Democat': I do have a doctorate, and I'm just amazed at the stultifying ignorance of your post. Have you no respect for your own ability to learn? You cob together a packet of pish and nonsense, a mass of sentences without a single coherent theme, and send them ... straight to a weblog where wit, style and frank writing are the norm.
As the good .com says, I'm embarassed for you. Grow up. Soon. Please.
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/05/2005 1:07 Comments ||
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#7
Dave -- "reality" is the operative word.
Posted by: Captain America ||
01/05/2005 1:08 Comments ||
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#8
Wowsers. I just followed .com's links and he's opened up a can of DenBeste brand WhupAssâ¢. And he's deadly; .com can put it right between your eyes at 50,000 traceroute pings. Dude, once you get hit with SDB WhupAssâ¢, you're toast.
#9
I will not bend down nor stop talking no matter what. I have a natural right to express my opinions, and those who would like to shut me up can leave this great country.--
Neither will I. Welcome aboard. This should be...enlightening.
Now you know how I've felt for ohhh, 25ish years.
Don't like it much, do you?
#10
I am American and proud, but I am so sorry that the country has a plurality of hate-filled bigots and imbeciles who didnât spend the time in school . . .
Good one, dude. Real persuasive ad campaign you got going there. "Vote Democrat, you ignorant, hate-filled imbeciles!" Yeah, that'll preach.
Posted by: Mike ||
01/05/2005 6:53 Comments ||
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#11
They are supportive of policies which encourage torture and disinformation
#13
"I am American and proud, but I am so sorry that the country has a plurality of hate-filled bigots and imbeciles who didnât spend the time in schoolâ¦"
I disapprove of some of the lifestyles the left celebrates, but I don't hate anyone, no matter how evil. And all my teachers said I'm quite intelligent.
"They are supportive of policies which encourage torture and disinformation"
The closest we've come to torture was Abu Ghraib, and the perpetrators are being punished.
"I have a natural right to express my opinionsâ¦"
And we likewise. If you don't like that you can go to Canada, where they've begun to require left-wing opinions on some issues.
In short, Proud Democrat, your article is, to quote Mike Royko, "â¦an example of shiftless, lazy thinking. Ugh."
#14
...it's up to us as individuals, not up to the government to ensure the outcome. That's the difference between Dems of all stripes and Republicans...
Excellent synopsis.
This great country of ours stands above the rest because we have tolerance and freedom of speech and religion. It is these freedoms which the Republicans seem to despise the most.
When I watch the political talk shows, oddly enough it seems that it is usually the Dems who get insulting, personal, angry. I have no problem with a Democrat expressing his or her opinion, and in those instances that they can prove me wrong or persuade me to another position through calm reason, I will thank them. If I'm wrong, correct me-that's a good thing. But so very few Dems these days seem to be able to do that. Nearly all of them seem to lash out at people personally instead of dealing with the content of their comments. They have a tendency of going off on tangents so that they don't have to address accurate points being made by Pubs.
I won't ask you to leave, Dems, but neither you should try to shout down, shame or intimidate people into adopting your beliefs. If you can't persuade, that should say something to you about your political analyses.
The WTO protest crowd fit that description quite nicely.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/05/2005 10:31 Comments ||
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#16
If the facts don't match the theory....I always apply an "adjustment" factor. Then they do. Or not :-)
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/05/2005 10:40 Comments ||
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#17
I wonder if proud was one the thousands of Demonstators in NY protesting and attemping to stop the democratic process of the Republicans nominating their candidate. Did anyone see these types of demonstrations during the Democratic Convention? Now who is calling who a facists?
#18
Yawn. Another idiot who can't pull his head out of his ass:
This great country of ours stands above the rest because we have tolerance and freedom of speech and religion. It is these freedoms which the Republicans seem to despise the most.
Freedom of speech? Last I checked, it wasn't Republicans pushing "hate speech" laws and political correctness. Or stealing entire runs of college newspapers...
Freedom of religion? Republicans weren't the ones barring qualified judges from the bench based on their religious (not legal!) beliefs. Or constantly barring people form the public expression of their religious beliefs.
Bah.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/05/2005 11:18 Comments ||
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#19
To sum it up: Wotta maroon.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
01/05/2005 11:54 Comments ||
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#20
PD,
I suppose your red blooded American Patriotism was opposed to removing a credible and perpetual threat to US national security. I suppose your Patriotism opposed the Patriot Act which allowed the government to arrest, disrupt and prevent terrorist attacks in the US after 9/11. I suppose you American Zeal will allow for the slaughter of innocent unborn children but cold blooded murderers should get parole in 15 years if they complete their art therapy classes. I suppose your Love of America allows you to sleep at night because WE deserved 9/11 because of our foreign policy and commitment to Israel. Remember PD thousands of brave men and women have died in defense of this nation. They died to give you the inalienable right of speech. Do not make the distinction as Republicans hate America and Deocrats love it. Both parties are well represented in Arlington.
#21
The whole thing seems to be based on the clever attempt to use Bush's "they hate us for our freedoms" against Republicans.
The idea would be clever if the fella writing it actually understood freedom and debate and didn't paint with such massive brushstrokes while blindly ignoring his side of the polictical spectrum.
#22
Rightwing, that little screed (#20) made no sense at all. Especially when directed at PD.com. What on earth did you think to achieve by posting it?
#24
You guys are gutless and spineless. All you can do is attack my opinion. It is absolutely incredible that in one sentence you claim you are not hateful, then in the next attack me... You claim to use logic and debate tactics, instead you use mob tactics.
First, it is obvious that by using the Gay Marriage issue, you are using a hate issue... Oh my, the gays are asking for marriage, it must be bad for whatever reason. They are threatening our marriages. I've been married for over 10 years, and I don't feel a treat from gay marriage... What is the issue? I too am religious, but my religion doesn't make a big issue about gays. I believe in seperation of church and state, and as a result I believe that appointing judges whos religion would prevent them from interpreting laws according to their 'religious' beliefs ABSOLUTELY. Religion should not be the issue, but I don't think that erecting a 10 commandments monument is a part of their responsibility to the government, especially in the public courthouse. People are entitled to freedom of religion, but as long as it doesn't interfere with their jobs. For instance, a practicing Jew has a problem because in order to follow the commandments he cannot work through Friday night and Saturday because of the observation of Shabbat.
I have seen a plethora of hate filled messages, telling the democrats to get out while they still can. I have seen threats, sadistic pleasure from the right over the pain of the left. I was very happy when Bush 41 lost, but I didn't rub it in the faces of my republican friends. I have seen some dirty namecalling from these right-wing nuts.
Also, I am fully for the defense of the country against terrorists. I for one am a victim of 9/11 because my brother died on the 105th floor of the 1st tower. I don't support all of the Patriot act, as many of the provisions are not required. If you believe that the Patriot act is above-board, why wasn't it considered and debated before it was passed? I suspect because it contains many provisions which erode civil liberties. I am greatly disappointed with Bush and the Republicans response to 9/11. The guy {Bush} looked like a dead duck when he heard the news. He was like a deer caught in the headlamps... Then he fumbled and bumbled, and didn't issue orders he should of. The timeline is pretty clear, and Bush was not a great leader. Second, the August 6th memo should have been a wake-up call... Instead the president took a vacation. My brother died, in my opinion, because Bush wanted to vacation in Crawford.
I wanted to see Osama Bin Ladenfucks head on a platter. Instead Bush transformed the 9/11 response into an attack on Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11. In fact, the 9/11 invasion plan went back to 1998, when it was discussed in the PNAC plans.
I can go on and on... I stand by my assertion that the Republicans hate American freedoms. Where I live, we are able to have our opinions and not be attacked.
Rightwing, you are a loser and a primary example of my point. Nobody is dying in Iraq to give me the freedom of speech. I fully salute the soldiers of WWII who effectively put down a threat from Nazi germany. But I wonder about the CIA, why did they employ so many Nazi war criminals? Also, if we are so set on removing credible and perpetual threats, why haven't we done so to other threats including Korea, Iran, and other nations where despotic leaders are in control.
Crawford, I support Hate Crime laws because I have seen them. My synagogue was burned last year for some reason and it may have been a hate crime. It is not your right to act on your hatred, to hurt someone because of their religion, sex, appearance, whatever.
#26
Trailing wife: I typically agree with most of your posts. The question I have is how can that not make any sense. I have a liberal mindset ranting that their perspective is more patriotic than the "Republican" perspective and why do those hatemongering Republicans hate America? It's clear cut, much of the Republican legislation that the lib's so vehemently oppose was just outlined. I guess you lost me TW.
#27
Rightwing, I think there's a simple misunderstanding here: you addressed your earlier comment to "PD" meaning, I assume, this "Proud Democrat" fellow.
But "PD" also happens to be the real-life initials of the fellow who posts here as ".com" and that is who I think Trailing Wife may have assumed you were addressing.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
01/05/2005 13:32 Comments ||
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#28
PD: If I'm reading your comment #24 correctly, you favor:
(1) a religious test for appointment to the federal judiciary which would effectively exclude any observant, orthodox Christian or Jew, even though the Constitution expressly forbids such a thing; and,
(2) the right of private employers to discriminate against Jews who observe the Sabbath in the same manner as Joe Lieberman.
Doesn't seem very sensitive or nondiscrimiatory to me. 'Course, what do I know. I'm just a vile creature, a gutless, spineless, hate-filled bigot and imbecile acting out of hatred. If I could only think for myself, I'd agree with everything you said. Why, my very act of critiquing you is probably a hate crime.
Posted by: Mike ||
01/05/2005 13:33 Comments ||
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#29
Thanks for the clarity Dave D. Nope not going after .com just Proud anti-all things good about America Democrat. Sorry about the confusion. Ask questions then shoot unless we're in Bangladesh.
#30
Rightwing, she thought you were attacking .com, who used to go by PD many moons ago.
I'm sure you were addressing your remarks to Proud Democrat.
It was tons of fun (not) here when half the posters came in as "Anonymous".
****
Proud Democrat, sorry for the loss of your brother. Rantburg started as a direct result of those attacks, and we've been here thrashing out the War on Terror ever since. I invite you to check out Fred's handy timeline.
#31
Roger that Sea, dropped and apology to PD aka .com
a little ways back. Thanks for the clarity. PS Proud Dem, I'm too, sorry for the loss of your brother. I had friends that were lost as well. Opinions are one thing and feelings and emotions run much deeper. My sympathies.
#32
You guys are gutless and spineless. All you can do is attack my opinion. It is absolutely incredible that in one sentence you claim you are not hateful, then in the next attack me...
Poor baby. Did we hurt your widdle fewwings?
You claim to use logic and debate tactics, instead you use mob tactics.
Youse wanna sit ringside or do youse wanna sit in the back and look at da broads?
First, it is obvious that by using the Gay Marriage issue, you are using a hate issue... Oh my, the gays are asking for marriage, it must be bad for whatever reason. They are threatening our marriages. I've been married for over 10 years, and I don't feel a treat from gay marriage...
I don't feela 'treat from gay marriage myself. I don't even feel a threat, but I am against it. Gays can't even do marriage right. Can't seem to find a willing hetero partnet, why should they be granted a marriage license?
What is the issue? I too am religious, but my religion doesn't make a big issue about gays. I believe in seperation of church and state, and as a result I believe that appointing judges whos religion would prevent them from interpreting laws according to their 'religious' beliefs ABSOLUTELY. Religion should not be the issue, but I don't think that erecting a 10 commandments monument is a part of their responsibility to the government, especially in the public courthouse. People are entitled to freedom of religion, but as long as it doesn't interfere with their jobs. For instance, a practicing Jew has a problem because in order to follow the commandments he cannot work through Friday night and Saturday because of the observation of Shabbat. I have seen a plethora of hate filled messages, telling the democrats to get out while they still can. I have seen threats, sadistic pleasure from the right over the pain of the left.
Not sadistic. Just enjoying watching those who suffer from self inflicted stupidity try to deflect blame from their political shortcomings by transferring them onto their opponents.
I was very happy when Bush 41 lost, but I didn't rub it in the faces of my republican friends. I have seen some dirty namecalling from these right-wing nuts.
Other than the moniker idot and moron I doubt you have seen it from any Rantburger.
Also, I am fully for the defense of the country against terrorists.
That's one liberal in favor of defense. Now, are in favor of carrying the fight to the enemy?
I for one am a victim of 9/11 because my brother died on the 105th floor of the 1st tower. I don't support all of the Patriot act, as many of the provisions are not required. If you believe that the Patriot act is above-board, why wasn't it considered and debated before it was passed? I suspect because it contains many provisions which erode civil liberties. I am greatly disappointed with Bush and the Republicans response to 9/11. The guy {Bush} looked like a dead duck when he heard the news. He was like a deer caught in the headlamps... Then he fumbled and bumbled, and didn't issue orders he should of. The timeline is pretty clear, and Bush was not a great leader.
Watched Fahrenheit 911 did you?
Second, the August 6th memo should have been a wake-up call... Instead the president took a vacation. My brother died, in my opinion, because Bush wanted to vacation in Crawford. I wanted to see Osama Bin Ladenfucks head on a platter. Instead Bush transformed the 9/11 response into an attack on Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11. In fact, the 9/11 invasion plan went back to 1998, when it was discussed in the PNAC plans. I can go on and on...
I thinik you just did.
I stand by my assertion that the Republicans hate American freedoms. Where I live, we are able to have our opinions and not be attacked.
I bet if I spoke my opnions where you lived I would be attacked. No sale.
Rightwing, you are a loser and a primary example of my point. Nobody is dying in Iraq to give me the freedom of speech.
Tell it to the Marines. They are killing terrorists precisely so you can shoot youor mouth off and look like an idiot.
I fully salute the soldiers of WWII who effectively put down a threat from Nazi germany.
Dja get that? He only supports soldiers in wars he approves of. Proof, once again, liberals love dead Americans, especially dead AMerican servicemen/women.
But I wonder about the CIA, why did they employ so many Nazi war criminals?
Ask your democratic -arty why they let that go on, will ya?
Also, if we are so set on removing credible and perpetual threats, why haven't we done so to other threats including Korea, Iran, and other nations where despotic leaders are in control.
#33
The guy {Bush} looked like a dead duck when he heard the news. He was like a deer caught in the headlamps... Then he fumbled and bumbled, and didn't issue orders he should of.
Of all of the anti-Bush arguments this one in particular shows me that the person giving it is a complete and total lemming.
#37
--You guys are gutless and spineless. All you can do is attack my opinion.--
If you didn't want it critiqued, why did you post it?
Doesn't this go back to:..."I will not bend down nor stop talking no matter what. I have a natural right to express my opinions, and those who would like to shut me up can leave this great country.--
11/5/01 - WSJ-Gregg Easterbrook's Free Speech is Never Free, IIRC.
#38
Or do you think you deserve a free pass because your brother died on 9/11?
And you're nice, all you want is OBL's head on a platter. I want him handed to the mob, taken to that special room in the basement every inch covered in linoleum w/a sink, drain and antique meat grinder and uncooked pork.
The mix is mixed into the cornerstone of the new WTC.
#39
Double-plus good duckspeak indeed, proud democrat!
Why can't I just live a life like proud demo? Never having to think for myself. My mind just a mishmash of opinions provided by others and cobbled together with no concern for either logic or causality. Every argument would be a parade of virtual 3 x 5 cards pulled from a virtual shoebox. There's something profoundly seductive about such a life. If only...
hahaha...*sniff* I know that a libs idea of discussion is to namecall and attack the person, but I guess I never realized that it was because attacking opinions was considered off limits. Who knew? heehee.
But it's up to us as individuals, not up to the government to ensure the outcome. That's the difference between Dems of all stripes and Republicans â conservatives, neo-conservatives, and libertarians.
That is a good summary of the difference. My favorite however, is: "Democrats make decisions based upon feelings (which can change), but Republicans make decisions based upon facts."
Posted by: BA ||
01/05/2005 14:24 Comments ||
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#42
Proud Dem-Anything anyone has said to you on this site isn't grave enough to make you stop your argument. The problem is that it seems your points are selective and jump illogically from one to another-which many be why reference to Michael Moore came up-he does much the same thing. Instead of being acting like the people on this site have no right to explain their views, pick a few things said here that you know you can refute and do so. We're listening.
Posted by: Mike ||
01/05/2005 15:11 Comments ||
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#49
That was a pretty confusing rant. I'm honestly not entirely certain it deserves a response. But since you have chosen to "throw down the gauntlet" in that tiny corner of the Blogosphere which I call home amongst those whom I consider friends, I suppose a brief and selective fisking of your hostile musings is in order.
1) You guys are gutless and spineless. All you can do is attack my opinion.
Actually, I strongly suspect that most of us are fairly physically brave. Many of us have served in the military, for example, while other Rantburgers such as myself have hobbies which are none to safe (to put it mildly). If you mean intellectually spineless then you haven't spent a lot of time on this site. Also, if you find us incapable of debate you have not spent enough time on this site.
2) You claim to use logic and debate tactics, instead you use mob tactics.
Well, this is a primarily conservative sight ergo there are more of "us" than "you" here.... so you feel mobbed. We are perfectly capable of debate and, I assure you, far more logical than our counterparts over at Democratic Underground.
3) First, it is obvious that by using the Gay Marriage issue, you are using a hate issue... Oh my, the gays are asking for marriage, it must be bad for whatever reason. They are threatening our marriages. I've been married for over 10 years, and I don't feel a treat from gay marriage... What is the issue?
First of all you are making the incredible assumption that everyone at Rantburg agrees on this issue. We don't. Would you like to make a spirited argument in defense of gay marriage? Go for it. I could give you at least three good reasons not to legalize gay marriage that have very little to do with my presumed "hatred" for a group of people who do strange things in their bedrooms. We should argue in the opinions section, though, because that is what we would be doing: exchanging opinions.
4) I too am religious, but my religion doesn't make a big issue about gays. I believe in seperation of church and state, and as a result I believe that appointing judges whos religion would prevent them from interpreting laws according to their 'religious' beliefs ABSOLUTELY. Religion should not be the issue, but I don't think that erecting a 10 commandments monument is a part of their responsibility to the government, especially in the public courthouse.
First of all learn to use a spell checker. People here will take you more seriously if you do. Secondly, almost everyone here is in favor of the separation of church and state in the sense that none of us want America to have a state religion. I think you will find that it was the intention of the Founding Fathers (for God sakes don't call them the "Framers," it's terribly irritating) to prevent our nation from having a Church of England or something along those lines. What they didn't demand was a total expulsion of traditional religious references from all aspects of public life. I'm not religious myself but I despise the ACLU for trying to obliterate all references to God from public life. Also, if you're really Jewish as indicated in your post what's your beef with the Ten Commandments? Our legal system is pretty much derived from them, after all.
5)I have seen a plethora of hate filled messages, telling the democrats to get out while they still can.
Where? What I have mainly seen is a lot of people rolling their eyes at this nonsense. It's funny, man, like when a child throws a temper tantrum because he has lost at a board game. Sure, we'd like for some of you (LLL Hollywood types to be specific) to leave, but since 99.99999% of you aren't going anywhere why would we bother to get that worked up about it? The whole Red State/Blue County thing is overrated anyhow.
6) I have seen some dirty namecalling from these right-wing nuts
Well, if you want to raise the tone a bit start by not calling anyone here a "right-wing nut." That could be considered "namecalling." We are a fairly diverse bunch without any sort of uniform ideology, so hang out a bit and politely participate. Oh, and use that spell checker!
7) Also, I am fully for the defense of the country against terrorists. I for one am a victim of 9/11 because my brother died on the 105th floor of the 1st tower. I don't support all of the Patriot act, as many of the provisions are not required. If you believe that the Patriot act is above-board, why wasn't it considered and debated before it was passed? I suspect because it contains many provisions which erode civil liberties.
I'm sorry to hear about your brother, but blaming us Republicans is pretty counter productive as well as not terribly logical. I'm not a big fan of several easily abused sections of the Patriot Act; it could certainly use some rewriting. A lot of Republicans feel the same way. The rest of your statement is nonsensical: the Patriot Act was publically debated, considered, and passed by both houses of Congress. On CSPAN no less. Last time I checked these houses included Democrats as well as Republicans, so climb down off the high horse.
8) I stand by my assertion that the Republicans hate American freedoms. Where I live, we are able to have our opinions and not be attacked.
Total nonsense. What American freedoms exactly are you talking about? Freedom of speech? Not a Democrat thing if you disagree with them. The right to be secure in your property? Again, Democrats have no problem with seizing and redistributing the private property of others. The right to keep and bear arms? Don't make me laugh. I live in a part of California dominated by Democrats who feel pretty comfortable about attacking me for my opinions; usually verbally, occasionally not. So what? Most people operate under a herd mentality so I'm not surprised.
Oh, Proud Democrat, I see more "I Hate America" bumper stickers of various sorts in one week in Berkeley than most Americans see in a lifetime, so forgive me if I don't find your party very patriotic.
#50
You guys are gutless and spineless. And some of us even post under our real names!
All you can do is attack my opinion. Were you expecting people to say 'That's okay because it's your "truth"?'
It is absolutely incredible that in one sentence you claim you are not hateful, then in the next attack me... You claim to use logic and debate tactics, instead you use mob tactics. There is no moderator here in the usual sense of debate. There are also no numbers to take and no raising of one's proverbial hand before chiming in. That is the democratic way.
First, it is obvious that by using the Gay Marriage issue, you are using a hate issue... Who even brought that up? Who is 'using' it here?
(blah blah about Gay Marriage skipped)
I believe in seperation of church and state, and as a result I believe that appointing judges whos religion would prevent them from interpreting laws according to their 'religious' beliefs ABSOLUTELY. Reading this over and over again, I'm seeing that you DO want judges that apply a religious litmus test in their decisions.
Religion should not be the issue, but I don't think that erecting a 10 commandments monument is a part of their responsibility to the government, especially in the public courthouse. People are entitled to freedom of religion, but as long as it doesn't interfere with their jobs. Wow... I've never heard of the Job Interference Doctrine before.
For instance, a practicing Jew has a problem because in order to follow the commandments he cannot work through Friday night and Saturday because of the observation of Shabbat. And reasonable accomodations can and should be made.
I have seen a plethora of hate filled messages, telling the democrats to get out while they still can. Where? Here? I doubt it. Mostly we just joke about what Drama Queens certain members of the Left have looked like.
I have seen threats, sadistic pleasure from the right over the pain of the left. See? I mean c'mon... get over it.
I was very happy when Bush 41 lost, Really? Why?
but I didn't rub it in the faces of my republican friends. I have seen some dirty namecalling from these right-wing nuts. "right-wing nuts" is meant in only the most respectful sense of the term, eh?
Also, I am fully for the defense of the country against terrorists. It ought to go without saying.
I for one am a victim of 9/11 because my brother died on the 105th floor of the 1st tower. And for that, I express my condolences.
(Patriot Act bit skipped...)
I am greatly disappointed with Bush and the Republicans response to 9/11. The guy {Bush} looked like a dead duck when he heard the news. He was like a deer caught in the headlamps... I'm not ashamed to say that I, too, was like such a deer. And so, interestingly enough, was your candidate, who admitted he was unable to think at all for upwards of 30 minutes.
Then he fumbled and bumbled, and didn't issue orders he should of. What do you expect those would be, as a clear-sighted member of the Left?
The timeline is pretty clear, and Bush was not a great leader. Second, the August 6th memo should have been a wake-up call... Instead the president took a vacation. My brother died, in my opinion, because Bush wanted to vacation in Crawford. Wow. That's a pretty harsh conclusion. You can take this advice or not: seek a professional opinion regarding misplaced anger. I'm serious. It will eventually eat you up from the inside. You wouldn't want to come unhinged.
(Macho, cowboy stuff regarding Osama bin Laden omitted)
(Personal responses to other posters omitted)
Posted by: Mark E. ||
01/05/2005 15:20 Comments ||
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#52
LOL, eLarson.
Mark E-Oh, I don't know, this one works just as well:
Figuratively, a scapegoat is someone selected arbitrarily to bear blame for a calamity. Scapegoating is the act of irrationally holding a person, group of people, or thing responsible for a multitude of problems.
#53
You guys are gutless and spineless. All you can do is attack my opinion.
What did you want us to attack? Your fashion sense? You posted a screed in which you called us bigots, imbeciles, nut-jobs and vile creatures, while depositing some very logic-impaired assertions. Some here have chosen to address the charges, while others have chosen to join you in name-calling. This is debate, and some are better at it than others. I would not place myself in the "strong debater" category, nor would I place you.
It is absolutely incredible that in one sentence you claim you are not hateful, then in the next attack me...
Kinda like complaining about the "idiots" and "imbeciles" while praising diversity of opinion.
You claim to use logic and debate tactics, instead you use mob tactics.
Um, no. We each responded individually to your post. That's what happens when you broadcast your opinion to a largish number of people - some of them may choose to respond.
First, it is obvious that by using the Gay Marriage issue, you are using a hate issue...
The gay marriage issue could be debated from a number of positions that don't draw from hate or religiosity, but nobody ever bothers to ask.
I've been married for over 10 years, and I don't feel a treat from gay marriage...
Then perhaps your conclusion that people "feel a treat (sic) from gay marriage" is flawed.
I believe in seperation of church and state, and as a result I believe that appointing judges whos religion would prevent them from interpreting laws according to their 'religious' beliefs ABSOLUTELY.
This sentence makes no sense. I mean, there's no verb. "I believe that appointing judges..." what? Don't leave us hanging, how does it end?
Religion should not be the issue
Maybe it's not. Maybe you are engaging in stereotyping.
People are entitled to freedom of religion, but as long as it doesn't interfere with their jobs.
Don't recall that clause in the first amendment.
I have seen a plethora of hate filled messages, telling the democrats to get out while they still can. I have seen threats, sadistic pleasure from the right over the pain of the left. I was very happy when Bush 41 lost, but I didn't rub it in the faces of my republican friends. I have seen some dirty namecalling from these right-wing nuts.
Also, I am fully for the defense of the country against terrorists.
State how you would do it. Effective answers only, please, no symbolic crap like dropping origami cranes.
I for one am a victim of 9/11 because my brother died on the 105th floor of the 1st tower.
Not to split hairs, but your brother was the victim of 9/11. Not you.
I don't support all of the Patriot act, as many of the provisions are not required.
Please explain how you would do it better. Again, no heartfelt symbolism. We're all about the results.
The guy {Bush} looked like a dead duck when he heard the news. He was like a deer caught in the headlamps... Then he fumbled and bumbled, and didn't issue orders he should of.
I bet I looked like a dead duck when I saw the news too. Actually, I looked like a really f*cking pissed-off duck. Please tell us what orders he should have issued.
Second, the August 6th memo should have been a wake-up call.
What if it had been? What if the Bush admin had reacted decisively to this memo, thus saving thousands of lives? How fast would you have been on the streets protesting Gestapo George's hateful racist tactics in targeting poor, vacationing muslims? Would your brother have been there by your side?
I can go on and on...
I was just thinking that myself.
I wanted to see Osama Bin Ladenfucks head on a platter.
Let us see the plan. Again, no origami.
Where I live, we are able to have our opinions and not be attacked.
Since you consider mere dissent to be an "attack on your opinion", it sounds like there is quite a lack of that diversity of opinion you idolize.
Crawford, I support Hate Crime laws because I have seen them. My synagogue was burned last year for some reason and it may have been a hate crime.
And if it wasn't a hate crime, would your synagogue be any less burnt?
#55
#45: BA....clap, clap, clap. Truer words were ne'r spoken!.
Thanks, 2b! My original quote (#41) gets at the heart of the difference, much like Fred's! The Demos. hear of one instance of one bad act and they must pass a law about it, which brings with it, enforcing regulations and a new gov't agency. Now that time has worn some from the horror of the tsunami, I know feel that we need to cut the cash trough off for public aid and let the private orgs. continue on. Much like Doctors w/o Borders (article posted yesterday) who proudly asked that people STOP sending money, they had enough to deal with the issues they were dealing with, we should send our money to the private orgs. Many people blasted those who called for the gov't to quit raising the bar on our aid, but I think now, we could all agree (or at least, most of us) that it should stop. When programs DON'T work (Social Security, tax & spend, quota/affirmative action programs, etc.), we should be men enough to at least look at it, and say it either needs tweaking or disbanding. The Demos (and the Republicans too) spending other's money on their "feelgood" projects are going to bankrupt us quick! BTW, DC, I'm sorry to hear about your brother! You are in my thoughts and prayers.
Posted by: BA ||
01/05/2005 15:33 Comments ||
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#56
Jules.... I agree; there are tons of different psychological explanations for why loons act the way they do. But to flesh out my idea, and even if you disagree (note Proud Democrat how we get along even though we have different ideas; you should try it some time instead of calling people who disagree with you stupid or evil, or both):
"I hate America; but that is an abhorrant opinion that is largely frowned upon. My opponent is abhorrent. Therefore, my abhorrant enemy (republicans, conservatives, what-have-you) must have that opinion."
"I want to stop people from speaking their opinions (particularly ones I disagree with); but that is an abhorrant and widely reputed position. My opponent is abhorrent. Therefore, my abhorrant enemy (republicans, conservatives, what-have-you) must have that opinion."
....man, just like all hippies; how self important. The narrative is always about their internal drama and self importance. Get thee to a therapist!
Posted by: Mark E. ||
01/05/2005 15:38 Comments ||
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#57
:)
I'm a little slow on the uptake, Mark. I'll chew on that one a bit.
#58
#24 You guys are gutless and spineless.
That's whatcha call an ad hominem attack. You don't like what's said, you attack the person saying it.
All you can do is attack my opinion.
You posted it. Presumably you took the time to read the content on the site, so you have an idea what most of our opinions consist of...
It is absolutely incredible that in one sentence you claim you are not hateful, then in the next attack me...
I'm confused. What's calling us "gutless and spineless" if not an attack? On what do you base your assessment of gutlessness and spinelessness?
You claim to use logic and debate tactics, instead you use mob tactics.
Looks more like mockery and derision than mob tactics.
First, it is obvious that by using the Gay Marriage issue, you are using a hate issue...
Who brought that up?
Oh my, the gays are asking for marriage, it must be bad for whatever reason. They are threatening our marriages. I've been married for over 10 years, and I don't feel a treat from gay marriage... What is the issue?
You're making the assumption there's a "real reason" people don't agree with your opinion. Maybe we just disagree. Marriage has been a man-woman affair for a few million years. Experiments with "alternatives" haven't worked.
I too am religious, but my religion doesn't make a big issue about gays. I believe in seperation of church and state, and as a result I believe that appointing judges whos religion would prevent them from interpreting laws according to their 'religious' beliefs ABSOLUTELY. Religion should not be the issue, but I don't think that erecting a 10 commandments monument is a part of their responsibility to the government, especially in the public courthouse.
I agree, to an extent. The 10 commandments as policy should be a no-no. The 10 commandments as decoration in a court of law doesn't faze me, any more than that image of Justice does. Religious fanatics shouldn't be appointed as judges, but if you cut people out of the running because they have religious beliefs you're left with only atheists and maybe a few agnostics. Atheism, an active belief that there is no god, brings with it yet another belief system. Better to look at the whole person, don't you think?
People are entitled to freedom of religion, but as long as it doesn't interfere with their jobs. For instance, a practicing Jew has a problem because in order to follow the commandments he cannot work through Friday night and Saturday because of the observation of Shabbat.
Some do, some don't. My personal belief is that the idea of a Sabbath (or maybe a small-s sabbath) is a good idea. We've gone from a 5 1/2 day week that my father worked to a seven-day week plus overtime that I work. I don't think that's good for society in the long run, anymore than two months of vacation a year plus public holidays is. But that's my opinion, and until there are lots of other people who share it, Sunday (or Saturday or whenever) blue laws aren't going to make a comeback.
I have seen a plethora of hate filled messages, telling the democrats to get out while they still can. I have seen threats, sadistic pleasure from the right over the pain of the left. I was very happy when Bush 41 lost, but I didn't rub it in the faces of my republican friends.
They didn't require professional counseling, either...
I have seen some dirty namecalling from these right-wing nuts.
The stupidity of that statement takes my breath away.
Also, I am fully for the defense of the country against terrorists. I for one am a victim of 9/11 because my brother died on the 105th floor of the 1st tower.
What are we fighting in Iraq, if not terrorists? What was your opinion on dismantling the Taliban in Afghanistan? What's your opinion on invading Iran and hanging the ayatollahs? What's your opinion on invading Syria and hanging the Baathists? Do you think it would be a good idea to chase the princes out of Soddy Arabia? Much of what we do here at Rantburg consists of considering these very things. The concensus is mostly that terrorism is interconnected, a phenomenon without borders, emanating from the Middle East. It's financed by the ayatollahs and the princes, and it burns cannon fodder from every country were Muslims live. Prior to his retirement, Saddam was one of the financiers as well, along with being an oppressor of his people. The enemy doesn't believe in representative government; they want to be ruled by holy men, but they'll settle for a Fearless Leader. They believe that if you don't do what they tell you to do they should kill you. That's our opinion, based on the facts we see unfolding here every day. What's yours?
I don't support all of the Patriot act, as many of the provisions are not required. If you believe that the Patriot act is above-board, why wasn't it considered and debated before it was passed? I suspect because it contains many provisions which erode civil liberties.
Why don't you get a copy of it and read it? I suspect my hair will have grown back when I wake up tomorrow. That doesn't mean it will.
I am greatly disappointed with Bush and the Republicans response to 9/11. The guy {Bush} looked like a dead duck when he heard the news. He was like a deer caught in the headlamps... Then he fumbled and bumbled, and didn't issue orders he should of. The timeline is pretty clear, and Bush was not a great leader.
That's another ad hominem attack. You're attempting to denigrate him because he had a reaction to the fact that the country was under attack. I had much the same reaction. So did most of the people here. What was your reaction?
Second, the August 6th memo should have been a wake-up call... Instead the president took a vacation. My brother died, in my opinion, because Bush wanted to vacation in Crawford.
In my opinion you're looking for someone to blame it on and make a few political points. There's always a level of threat in the background noise. The trick is to assess which ones are valid and where they're going to occur. Intelligence is seldom "we attack at dawn at coordinates X500 Y400 using two tank divisions." You're assuming superhuman omniscience.
I wanted to see Osama Bin Ladenfucks head on a platter. Instead Bush transformed the 9/11 response into an attack on Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11. In fact, the 9/11 invasion plan went back to 1998, when it was discussed in the PNAC plans.
We've got "plans" that include the invasion of Canada and Mexico, the former first being formulated in 1802 and the latter in 1832. Bush didn't attack Iraq after 9-11; he attacked Afghanistan, which is why Mullah Omar is now an unemployed potentate and Binny lives in a holy man's guest house in Pakistan. Much of the leadership of al-Qaeda has been killed or captured or driven so deep underground they're ineffective. Invading Iraq after Afghanistan had passed the control hump was a strategic decision. The next place we invade will be a strategic decision, too. You probably won't agree with that one, either.
I can go on and on... I stand by my assertion that the Republicans hate American freedoms.
You've made the assertion but you haven't proven it.
Where I live, we are able to have our opinions and not be attacked. Rightwing, you are a loser and a primary example of my point. Nobody is dying in Iraq to give me the freedom of speech.
They're dying there to ensure that you keep it. Have you noticed that the Bad Guys blow up people who don't agree with them? Or bump them off in other ways? You're making the assumption that sort of thing will never happen in New Jersey.
I fully salute the soldiers of WWII who effectively put down a threat from Nazi germany. But I wonder about the CIA, why did they employ so many Nazi war criminals?
Probably because they knew where the bodies were buried. I'm sure you're also in favor of the CIA not doing business with thieves, murderers, cut-throats, ladies of easy virtue or other undesirable characters. It does't sound like you've ever had to collect and analyze and act on information that could result in people with turbans cutting people's heads off in New Jersey.
Also, if we are so set on removing credible and perpetual threats, why haven't we done so to other threats including Korea, Iran, and other nations where despotic leaders are in control.
Because Bush prioritized what he was going to do and cracked the easiest nut first. If you think Iraq is bad, wait until we're in Iran. You're going to think that's worse, but wait until we're in Korea.
Crawford, I support Hate Crime laws because I have seen them. My synagogue was burned last year for some reason and it may have been a hate crime. It is not your right to act on your hatred, to hurt someone because of their religion, sex, appearance, whatever.
But there have been laws against arson for at least 1500 years under Common Law. If it's a crime, what's the motive matter? In fact, Perry Mason to the contrary, motive is irrelevant under the law, though intent does count. So if arson's a felony, why do you need an additional layer?
Posted by: Fred ||
01/05/2005 15:55 Comments ||
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#59
He don't like the answers, he shouldn't ask the questions.
Nicely done, Fred, but...ummmmmmmmm....wanna watch the bandwidth?
#70
Proud Democrat: Look up Harbrace College Handbook and review Chaper 23, Unity and Logical thinking. You have your work cut out for you.
#19 Barbara: "Maroons" are a culture in Haiti and the Dominican Republic, comprised of the descendants of slaves who ran to the hills and scratched out farms in the deepest jungle. See Roget's Thesaurus for some lovely synonyms for "Folly," "Absurdity," and "Stupidity." "Proud Democrat" fits quite a few of them.
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/05/2005 22:09 Comments ||
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#76
My goodness. This thread quite took my breath away. I suspect Proud Democrat will be back, if only to sooth his ego by seeing how many responses his post garnered. So here is one more for him.
PrDem, some of us here, like me, are not Evangelical Christians. Some of us here, like me, are Jews. Some of us here, like me, are even Reform, ie liberal Jews. Some are even atheists or agnostics.
Some of us here, like me, have historically voted Democrat. Some of us, not like me, were even registered Democrats their entire voting lives; I'd always considered myself an Independent.
All of us looked like deer in the headlights as we watched the second airplane hit the second tower, and as we watched the buildings burn and the survivors run. All of us do not consider ourselves victims, because we were not directly injured or killed by the actions of terrorists. (I sympathise with your loss. But you must understand, my dear, you were not the one who died. It is not your wife and children who cry at night because you aren't there.) Some of us escaped from the Towers without serious harm; many of us know someone who was killed by one of the airplanes. And all of us are pooling our knowledge and experience to help Fred analyze the news from all over the world for information that will help clarify the villains and heroes of this War on Terror that was thrust upon us on that horrible day in September 2001, what they are doing, how, and what needs to be done next.
Once upon a time the SS came for my Grandfather. He had already spent six months in a concentration camp for being a leader in the Jewsih community of his home town, and now SS wanted to finish the job. He and my grandmother snuck over the border to Holland that night, and started their lives over. My mother, then a little child of eight, subsequently travelled all by her lonesome with just the contents of her handbag to join them there. When the Nazis followed them to Holland, my mother spent the rest of the war in hiding separated from her parents, lest the entire family be wiped out in one raid. Two weeks of that time Mama lay in a roof gutter four stories up, because there was nowhere else for her to go (luckily, she didn't have to worry about going to the bathroom she says, so long as her head was on the uphill side). After 9/11 I vowed that nobody would be allowed to do the same to my mother's grandchildren.
So, Proud Dem, your "poor me, I'm a discriminated-against minority" stuff won't fly here. Some of us are not only members of your minority, but have suffered worse. You are just lucky True German Ally missed this thread: he spent his youth in a Nazi concentration camp because he was Jewish, then more years in a Soviet Stalag because he was German. Now he advises the German government -- and sometimes upbraids it -- on their policies toward Jews and other minorities in-country, and toward Israel as well. I suspect that after reading your not-so-little screed above, he would have flayed you and rolled you in salt for your presumption, not to mention carelessness with the facts.
I would like to invite you to stick around. Read the articles. Read the comments. Then post, when you have something unique and substantive to add. Rantburg is not simply an opinion forum like the Democratic Underground. We are working hard in our own little way to help fight the War on Terror, and we take that responsibility quite seriously.
Oh, and drop the Republican/Right Wing stereotypes, ok? We have full professors here, professionals including doctors and lawyers, a corporate vice president or two (surprisingly many of whom have worn the uniform to protect your right to make a fool of yourself), a great many current and former Armed Services members, and even a few Intelligence types (probably former Intel, but they aren't telling). And while all of them are ladies and gentlemen, not all of them feel the need always to be nice.
Oh yes, and this little corporate wife, who spent some years dragging her little family behind her internationally posted husband. It was great fun, and I can call you an ass in American, British, German, Dutch and Hebrew. If you want it in another language, just ask: we've even got members who speak Malay and Thai.
President Pervez Musharraf has approved the Criminal Law (Amendment) Bill 2004 passed by the National Assembly on October 26 and the Senate on December 7. The law increases punishment for honour-related crimes committed in the name of karo kari, siyah kari and other such customs or practices. The law will also help stop the misuse of the blasphemy law and Hudood Ordinance as the level of investigation is being raised to that of the superintendent of police.
Right. That'll work. Problem solved. Next problem!
It will fool Human Rights Watch, and that's all that matters.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/05/2005 00:00:00 ||
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"The law increases punishment for honour-related crimes"
The government has decided to expedite anti-terrorist cases pending in various courts to curb terrorism in Pakistan.
"You a terrorist?"
"Nope!"
"Hokay. Next case!"
This decision was made at an inter-ministerial meeting between Aftab Ahmed Khan Sherpao, the interior minister, and Wasi Zafar, the law minister. The meeting was held at the law ministry and officials and experts of both sides attended. Sources privy to the meeting told Daily Times that the government would request chief justices of the Supreme Court and provincial high courts to hear pending terrorism cases early. The meeting observed that the rate of disposal of cases was far less than the rate of arrival of fresh cases and because of this a huge backlog had been created in not only anti-terrorism courts (ATCs) but also in the high courts and the Supreme Court.
"Cheeze, Chaudry! Back off! Y'r arrestin' 'em faster than we can turn 'em loose!"
In many cases a person is convicted but his appeal remains in the superior courts for an indefinite period, sources said. After the meeting, Sherpao told Daily Times that various proposals and measures to make investigation and prosecution more effective in anti-terrorism cases had been considered. "There are 940 cases in various accountability courts for various reasons. We want expeditious disposal of these cases," he said.
In that case, why not just shoot them? Or blow them up?
Posted by: Fred ||
01/05/2005 00:00:00 ||
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Sure fire test: Give then a hand grenade baseball and a human profile target, say 50 meters away. If they come within 10 meters, they're innocent.
Jammat Ahle Sunnat and Tehreek Tahaffuz Khatme Nabuwat (TTKN) will observe black day on January 14 to protest the omission of religion column from passports. This decision was taken at a meeting chaired by Maulana Allah Wasaya Qasim, the TTKN chairman, said Syed Shahid Hussain Gardezy, the TTKN secretary, on Tuesday. He said that the protest would continue until the government re-inducts the column. He said that the main demonstration would be held in Bhatti Chowk in Lahore at 2pm and all district and tehsil councils of the tehreek have been directed to hold demonstrations on January 14.
"My religion! I can't remember what religion I am!"
"Whyn't you look in the religion column on your passport, Chaudry?"
"IT'S NOT THERE!"
Does anyone know if Protest Warrior has a chapter in Lahore?
Posted by: Fred ||
01/05/2005 00:00:00 ||
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Just tell them to put the religion column in on all the fake ones. Problem solved!
A high-profile asylum-seeking family who were deported from Australia after a five-year battle arrived safely in Pakistan but have since disappeared, officials said on Tuesday. Ali and Roqia Bakhtiari and their six children were flown to Islamabad late last week after Canberra, known for its tough, much-criticised stance on immigration, rejected their claims that they were ethnically-oppressed Afghans. "A family deported from Australia arrived in Islamabad on Sunday," a Pakistani immigration official told AFP on condition of anonymity. "We allowed them to go after someone furnished a personal guarantee that they would return for investigations," he said, but declined to identify the guarantor.
So how'd he "guarantee" their appearance? And what happens to him if they don't show?
The official said the family "might" have gone to Quetta, which is near the Afghan border, but could not confirm that they had. The Bakhtiaris arrived in Australia in 1999 and became a symbol of the fight against the conservative government's policy of indefinite, mandatory detention for all unwanted asylum-seekers - a stance widely criticised by civil libertarians at home and abroad. They lodged some 20 unsuccessful legal challenges for asylum, insisting they were from Afghanistan's ethnic Hazara community, a Shia minority oppressed by the former Taliban regime.
We can sympathize, but the Talibs aren't running things in Afghanistan anymore. They're back safe in... uhhh... Quetta.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/05/2005 11:16:19 PM ||
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Don't sympathize, either Silent Running or Tim Blair's been keeping an eye on them.
I think eventually they'll reach some sort of saturation point where there won't be any room for further increases...
KARACHI: Terrorists targeting government installations and tribal feuds in interior Sindh were two of the major problems the Sindh police faced during the year 2004, says a report prepared by the provincial government. Sui gas pipelines were targeted and damaged in Sindh interior 11 times, railway tracks were targeted and damaged three times and an electricity pylon was damaged once.
That'd be mostly the Bugtis...
Tribal feuds were the second major problem in interior of the province, with Sukkur region topping the list. Tribal feuds remained on the rise in the districts of Khairpur, Larkana, Sukkur, Ghotki, Jacobabad and Shikarpur. Tribal feuds in these districts claimed a number of lives in these districts last year. Kidnapping for ransom saw a little decline in interior Sindh in 2004, compared with 2003.
"Chaudry! Who're we gonna kidnap?"
"I dunno, Mahmoud! I think we've kidnapped everybody in Sindh by now!"
"Maybe we should go to Punjab?"
The report said 69 persons were kidnapped in 2004, compared with 75 in 2003. Those kidnapped in 2004 included two judges and three other known persons. Highway robberies were also one of the major problems the Sindh police faced in 2004. 51 cases of highway robberies were reported in 2004, compared with 54 in 2003. Agitation activities by political and religio-political parties, such as the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal, the Alliance for Restoration of Democracy and nationalist parties, also posed problems for the police.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/05/2005 11:08:40 PM ||
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The government should not concede to extremists by including a religion column in the passport, said a joint statement by the Democratic Commission for Human Development (DCHD) and the National Commission for Justice and Peace Commission (NCJP) on Tuesday. The DCHD, a civil society group, and NCJP, a non-government organisation working for minority rights, demanded that the government take a principled stand on the issue. They said that Pakistan had already suffered because of religious extremism and state agenda should not be manipulated by bigotry anymore. They added that the passport was a travel document and had nothing to do with religion.
Thank you for today's statement of the blindingly obvious.
They said that Pakistani people needed economic stability to use their passport for travelling and so far the majority of people had not used their passports. They added that adding a religion column would equate to religious discrimination, which would not lead to a moderate and democratic country. They said, "Hatred once learnt manifests itself in all spheres. Religious discrimination in politics have spread sectarian violence in the past and severed our relationships with neighbouring countries."
Posted by: Fred ||
01/05/2005 00:00:00 A.M. ||
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It may be a blinding glimpse of the obvious to us, but these Pakistanis are standing up to the Islamacists who have announced a joint effort to unseat Musharrif. Pakistan needs voices like this!
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
North Korea has set up a new war plan that calls for more underground protection facilities to prepare for a possible U.S. attack on the communist country, South Korean intelligence officials said Wednesday. The 33-page military document, signed by North Korean leader 
Unification Minister Chung Dong-young declared Tuesday that Seoul will stop allowing large groups of North Korean defectors to enter South Korea, saying that government has no desire to undermine the communist country's leadership. ``The North's perception that we are trying to shake the Pyongyang regime by bringing defectors to Seoul is quite different from our policy,'' Chung said during an MBC radio interview. ``We disapprove of the mass defections. There will be no more large-scale arrivals of defectors in Seoul.'' 
South Korean President Roh Moo-Hyun said Tuesday US President George W Bush had offered to join him on a trip to North Korea, but aides said there was no formal agreement. Reports quoted Roh as saying he made the proposal late last year and Bush answered in the affirmative. Roh made the disclosure in a meeting with his cabinet, according to a pool report of the meeting. Aides to Roh were quick to point out the conversation was informal and casual and there was no suggestion of a formal agreement on either side to travel to the Stalinist state. The casual conversation between the two leaders took place on the sidelines of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Santiago, Chile, last November. Bush will visit South Korea in November to attend the next APEC summit scheduled to take place in the southern port city of Busan. Roh told his cabinet that Bush said he was ready to take time out from Busan to travel north to visit an industrial park for South Korean firms being built in North Korea's border city of Kaesong. "During a standing conversation, I made a suggestion that President Bush and I go to the Kaeseong complex when he comes for APEC (in Busan). President Bush said 'Yes, let's go. If you go I will go'."
Sources said the organization is on its way toward dismantlement, as disputes emerge between its members over plans for bombings and assassinations. 
Iran has agreed to give U.N. inspectors access to a huge military site that the United States alleges is linked to a secret nuclear weapons program, the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency said Wednesday. IAEA Director General 
Actor Richard Gere has recorded a TV commercial urging Palestinians to vote in their election Sunday.
Two individuals with criminal records were killed in separate incidents of 'crossfire' between their gangs and police in the capital and adjacent Keraniganj early yesterday. 
A suspected bomb-bearer was killed in a lynch-mob attack in the city''s Pallabi area Tuesday, reports UNB. The dead was identified as Sumon, 20, who was allegedly carrying two hand-made bombs. Sources said Sumon tried to flee exploding one bomb when police chased him on suspicion in the afternoon. "Local people caught and gave him a mass beating. Another hand-made bomb was recovered from his possession during the melee," police said. He was declared dead on arrival at Dhaka Medical College Hospital. 
Bandarban:Security forces fought a three-hour fierce gunbattle with a band of criminals in a remote hilly area in Bandarban early yesterday exchanging around 500 shots. The criminals used sophisticated weapons including rocket launchers during the shootout in Lulain, Tumbru, Hlapai Mukh and Latajhiri areas, sources said. Army and other official sources confirmed the incident but would not disclose details about it. It is unclear whether any one was injured or dead in the gunfight. A tense situation was prevailing in the area, 15 kilometres off Bandarban, after the battle and communications with the district headquarters remained snapped until last night.
Barred from participating in Sunday's election to replace Yasser Arafat, Palestinian refugees in Lebanon fear being left in the political wilderness when the new leadership comes to power. "Despite the presidential elections, the millions of Palestinians of the diaspora remain without representation," the secretary general of the late Arafat's Fatah movement in Lebanon, 
The government has decided to expedite anti-terrorist cases pending in various courts to curb terrorism in Pakistan.
