Hussein supporters asked to understand "root causes" of American attacks.
In the wake of the attack earlier this week that left Uday and Qusay Hussein dead, many in Americaâs academic community came forward to encourage the remaining supporters of Saddam Hussein to "look past their anger" and try to discover the "root causes" of the American attack. Said Middle East correspondent and professional idiotarian Robert Fisk, "While it might be tempting for Saddamâs supporters to lash out at the west, they would be better served by trying to understand why they are so hated throughout the world, including in their own country." Fisk went on to suggest that invading Kuwait and supporting terrorists around the world had done much to draw the ire of the west, and that the best course of action would be to try to understand American culture. A leading Berkley professor suggested that Baath party members should "spend time learning about Americans, Western Culture, and maybe every try a cheeseburger or maybe listening to some pop music." Said Fisk, "The temptation will be for the Baathists to strike back, but violence only begets more violence. You canât judge an American until youâve walked a mile in his Nikes."
Posted by: mojo ||
07/29/2003 11:17:29 AM ||
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#1
A professor at Berkley(!!!!!!!!) says that we're not the bad guys?
Posted by: Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire ||
07/29/2003 11:23 Comments ||
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#2
A professor at Berkley(!!!!!!!!) says that we're not the bad guys?
I wish. This is satire, dude. Unlike us, the enemy isn't into navel gazing.
#3
Actually Robert Fisk was at the Gen Sanchez news conference where the "yes they are dead" announcement was made. Fisk asked why we didn't surround the place for 6 days until their ammo was out and capture them. Gen Sanchez didn't do so well on the answer. He could have said, "Well we didn't know who it was but we did know that they were trying to kill us." or something like that. Instead he said, "that's speculation".
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/29/2003 13:42 Comments ||
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#5
With Bezerkleyites spouting drivel like this, it's no wonder OBL thought he could take us easily. Just another typical Bezerkley Oxygen Thief wasting our natural oxygen resource.
Posted by: Paul ||
07/29/2003 15:54 Comments ||
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Hat Tip: the dissident frogman
We have previously noted that, while the term âidiotarianismâ (coined by Charles Johnson) has several obvious disadvantages, we occasionally have to use it because there is no alternative with the same meaning in common use. Now, a reader of Woty Freemanâs blog, Kolya Wolf, has suggested a new term to replace âidiotarianismâ, namely villepinism (and âvillepinistâ to replace âidiotarianâ), after the current French foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin.
A few notes on this proposal:
We think the word should begin with a lower-case âvâ because de Villepin was not the originator of villepinism, only a prominent exponent. We capitalize âStalinismâ and âThatcherismâ, but not âquislingâ or âboycottâ.
It is âvillepinismâ and not âvillepinismeâ because it is an English word. The French translation might well be âvillepinismeâ.
Recall our definition: âsystematically siding with evil without actually adopting the evildoersâ objectivesâ and then look at this description of current French foreign policy.
What do our readers think?
UPDATE: Do you think we need a new word for âidiotarianâ? Vote in our poll. At the latest check before posting, idiotarian and villepinism are running neck and neck. Personally, I think we need both. Seems to me that idiotarian sounds meaner - a more direct challenge and might be best employed when one is delivering one of the more severe retorts, such as Touchstoneâs "Countercheque Quarrelsome" - the fifth degree... On the other hand, in venues where such language might not be acceptable or might actually or accidentally serve as a valid response, such as the UN, the use of villepinism would be perfectly acceptable, especially when you consider its place of birth.
To me it sounds like a separate word. "Idiotarianism" indeed implies "systematically siding with evil without actually adopting the evildoersâ objectives." Villepinism by its name implies an identifiable subspecies. Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, and Arundhati Roy â to name but the first three that pop to mind â fit the idiotarian definition perfectly. To be villepinists, they'd also have to profess that their active efforts to undermine any sort of rational response to the international terror machine are mere differences of opinion or approach, and that, truly, they are working for similar ultimate goals to ours. The one gnaws the left ankle, the other gnaws the right ankle while professing ultimate friendship.
Posted by: PD ||
07/29/2003 6:55:18 AM ||
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#1
Fred - I snarfed the title... it should either be idiotarianism -or- villepinist - your choice. Sorry.
#2
"villepinism" should be reserved for use describing government officials or policy.
"idiotarian" should be used for the media and other self-anointed morons.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 8:24 Comments ||
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#3
I'm with Steve on this one. Sounds like a good criteria. Of course, "useless fool" could be substituted for either, as can "asshat(s)" which has become a current favorite of mine...heh heh.
I'm sure M. de Villepin subscribes to the "weak dollar" theory to explain the 80% drop in Americans visiting France this year - see post in Europe section below
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 9:04 Comments ||
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#4
Not only is it an English word, but it should be pronounced "vil-uh-pin-iz-um", with the "vil" like "village".
#8
I think you need both words to describe the motive or intent of the subject.
"Idiotarian" suggest someone who is clueless with respect to his position or philosophy. One can espouse a particular point of view without promoting an agenda or being concerned with an outcome.
On the other hand, "villepinism" clearly conotes motive and an awareness of goal.
Robert Fisk is not an idiotarian. Yet my next door neighbour....
Posted by: john ||
07/29/2003 14:39 Comments ||
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#9
"Villepinism" doesn't stand for "idiotarian" but for "vainglorism".
Robert Crawford, "Villepenism" would confirm the suspicion that Villepin is indeed a man.
#10
TGA, does that mean that a certain female British actress harboring Chechnyan thugs in her London apartment can't be a villepenist?
I guess it's my English that is the problem. Perhaps we need, as the German langauge has, proper pronouns. How about, for the wimmin, "villepenis" -- no, no, that will never work.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/29/2003 15:43 Comments ||
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#11
Robert Crawford, "Villepenism" would confirm the suspicion that Villepin is indeed a man.
Nah -- it would just be calling him a dick. No need to be a male to be a dick.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/29/2003 16:34 Comments ||
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#12
I think vilepinism needs a separate definition from idiotarianiam. Villipinism also implies siding with evil just to fuck your buddy whereas some idiotarians actually believe in what they are doing.....
Posted by: Luigi ||
07/29/2003 17:25 Comments ||
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#13
So if someone is a real asshat, we could call them the "village idiotarian"?
Posted by: John ||
07/31/2003 13:19 Comments ||
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#5
I'm with you, Mike. I say fly the "long pig" back to Kampala, for an old fashioned Texas style barbeque.
Posted by: Frank D ||
07/29/2003 9:54 Comments ||
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#6
his significance is non-existent....recognize irony when it hits you in the face?
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 9:59 Comments ||
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#7
And the cry goes out in Scotland, from Stavanger to Stonehaven, Leith to Lochalsh: "The King is Dead!"
Scotland needs a new king. Applications will not be considered. Position to be filled by self-appointment only. Despot or dictator preferred. Salary £0.00 p.a.
#9
He just won't die: JIDDAH, Saudi Arabia (AP) - Uganda's notorious former dictator Idi Amin remains in a coma, his condition unchanged in recent days, Saudi hospital workers said Tuesday.
MSNBC pulled the story.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 11:43 Comments ||
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#10
CRAP! Now they're saying on Associated Press his status is unchanged.
Why don't you die? dammit!
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 11:43 Comments ||
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#11
Why oh why can't I type as fast as STEVE? Oh, the humanity.....
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 11:48 Comments ||
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#12
Slow-roast the body until every drop of moisture is gone. Grind what's left into a fine powder, mix it into cement, and use it to build a new sewer system at Entebbe Airport. That way, both the locals and the rest of the world can express their fondness for Idi on a daily basis.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
07/29/2003 11:52 Comments ||
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Those spiritually bankrupt people of the left decried Bush's drumbeat refrain of "evil in this world" and "evildoers" and sought to ridicule Bush's old-fashioned Old Testament world view. Idi Amin, my friends, is the very personification of the evil that the President was speaking about.
Riyadh - Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef bin Abdul Aziz (a.k.a. âNo Al-Qaeda cells in Saudi Arabiaâ and The Prince of Insincerity (Zionists did it!) and The Prince of Fingerprints)
on Tuesday ruled out the extradition of Saudi national Omar al-Bayumi, suspected by Washington of having been an associate of two of the 9/11 suicide bombers. Yup. He did.
"We have never handed over a Saudi to a state or foreign party and we will never do it," Prince Nayef said when asked by Al-Hayat newspaper if Riyadh was ready to extradite Bayumi. Nope. Uh, uh. Not happening. Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along. The force is with the USAbdullah, my bubba me.
A US congressional report on the September 11, 2001 attacks released last week stated that Bayumi was an associate of two of the hijackers, Khaled al-Mihdar and Nawaf al-Hazmi, and could have been a Saudi government agent. This is the guy with apparently unlimited funds who helped out the two 9/11 guys when they were tooling around El Lay.
"Reports that Omar al-Bayumi is an agent of the Saudi government are baseless and not true," Saudi Arabiaâs ambassador to the United States, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, said at the time. My wife knows him. Not me. So heâs not official. Not an agent. Nope.
"It is unfortunate that reports keep circulating in the media describing him as an agent of the Saudi government with attribution only to anonymous officials," Prince Bandar said. Your wife is anonymous? Oh, I forgot - youâre Saudi, so of course sheâs anonymous. My bad.
So, think there might some reason (other than theyâve never done it before) that the Saudis wouldnât want Al Bayumi in US hands? Geeeeee. I canât think of anything...
Posted by: PD ||
07/29/2003 8:38:06 AM ||
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Too risky. And that's with either airstrikes or men on the ground.* Either would trigger a major diplomatic rupture. Unless we're prepared to go to war with Saudi Arabia, of course. I'm not sure that's in the cards right now. The frontburner issues are North Korea and Iran, not Saudi Arabia (especially since the Saudis are taking care of the jihadis instead of letting them roam free).
* The dirtbag isn't worth the life of a single American soldier, so ground operations are out.
Followup to yesterday's entry, supplies detail...
Six terror suspects and two police officers were killed yesterday in Uyoon Al-Jawa, a province of Al-Qasim, when police exchanged fire with the suspects at a farm after receiving information that wanted suspects were hiding there. Security forces received information that a group of suspects was hiding out at a farm in the area, which was inhabited by four men, three women and six children, local sources told Arab News. When questioned, the inhabitants denied there was anyone at the farm except members of their family.
"Nope. Nope. Nobody here but us and the camel."
But when police heard strange noises in the house and confirmed that the suspects were in fact hiding inside, they asked them to surrender.
"Come out witcher hands up, Muggsy! The jig's up!"
At that point, the suspects started throwing hand grenades at the security officers, which gave the officers no choice but to return fire.
"You'll never take us alive, coppers!"
After evacuating the women and children, police engaged in a shootout with the terror suspects.
"Hokay."
As a result, six of the terror suspects were killed and one of them was injured.
"Dang, Mahmoud! They wuz right!"
Two police officers, Lt. Sattam Al-Mutairi and Sgt. Ali Gazi Al-Harbi of the Special Emergency Forces, were also killed during the shootout, and several others were injured. The people harboring the suspects were arrested.
"Just you and the camel, huh?"
"And them. I forgot them."
At the weekly meeting of the Saudi Cabinet yesterday, Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Fahd praised the Kingdomâs security forces for âhaving foiled several terrorist actsâ and hailed the âpopulationâs cooperation with the police in the fight against terrorismâ.
"Splx!"
"Nurse! He's doing it again!"
Sources could not confirm whether the wanted suspects were among the 19 Al-Qaeda terrorists sought by the Saudi government for their involvement in the May 12 terrorist attacks. The following 10 of the 19 terrorists are still at large: Khaled Ali Haj,
Which reminds me: Where do people from Mecca go for the Haj?
We never seem to run out of al-Ghamdis, do we? I'd call the al-Ghamdi clan a terrorist organization in itself and lock the whole bunch up...
Abdul Aziz Al-Muqrin, and Saleh Al-Aufi. Last week, 16 militants who were planning terrorist attacks against Saudi targets were arrested in Riyadh, Al-Qasim, and the Eastern Province. Security forces searched hide-outs in farms, rest houses, and residential homes. Footage broadcast by local TV showed seized weapons including automatic rifles, hand grenades, as well as bags filled with chemical substances to make explosives. Mobile phones, surveillance cameras, bulletproof vests, forged identity cards, donation boxes, computers and audiotapes were also seized. The Ministry of the Interior said that all 16 arrested were Saudi nationals aged 17 to 30. Interior Minister Prince Naif confirmed that they had links to Al-Qaeda. On Saturday, police in Makkah arrested three suspects for being in possession of terror-related printed matter, including a fatwa advocating terrorist acts.
A fatwa signed by whom? Or was it an anonymous fatwa?
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/29/2003 00:08 ||
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#1
Just think about it. Prior to the Riyadh bombing on May 14 (IIRC), none of this was happening. Of course not. Here? No way. Whatever the squirrels wanted to do, they did with impugnity utterly unmolested by the "police" much less the Special Emergency Forces.
Then some stooopid phool decides to go after a hoity-toity housing compound - and those that really are expensive and swank always contain about as many Saudis as foreigners. Hey, the Saudis that can afford it would like to "get away" from the average run of the mill Saudi, too. They can afford to travel and, once they know better, well...
So some morons bomb a swank joint and kills a few Saudis.
Mein Gott! Sacrebleu! Holy Shit! Allah aramalamadingdongdowadiddy!
The Saudis get an instant woodie for internal terrorism. Take their first look around and... Oh fuck!
Now its daily news. Tons of munitions and cellphones and arms and every kind of shit. Shootouts. Hords or terrorists. Right in the heart of the Kingdom - because they never had to hide before May 14th. Now, they can't round 'em all up fast enough. Tip of the iceberg.
I think of it as turning on the kitchen light for the very first time to discover millions of cockroaches... and I hear Allah say "Doh!" - and mean it.
Maybe this is just so they can say they're doing something, to get the American heat off of them. The real tell-tale sign is when they actually start chopping heads off.
Posted by: Rafael ||
07/29/2003 8:30 Comments ||
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#4
Given the prevalence of incest in Soddi, do the "Special Emergency Forces" ride the short bus?
#5
Incest? Or are you referring to their legendary male homosexuality? Hey, if your prospects are not the brightest, you won't be getting married until well after 30, if then. A sad, pathetic lot is their life and society.
#6
Saudi Arabia's wanted man, Ahmad Naser Al-Dakheel was killed in Monday's shootout between a group of armed men and police forces in the town of Gadhi, in the region of Qasim, a Saudi security source was quoted Tuesday as saying by Okaz daily.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 9:40 Comments ||
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#7
PD: While in Saudi, I always had the feeling that the authorities could go after whomever, whenever. So many illegal (we'd call them normal) activities go on. So, there's no mystery why weapons and terrorists are turning up at a record clip. There are NO secrets in that society; yet, it's a place where secrets abound. Contradiction? Absolutely. That's why it's called the Magic Kingdom.
Posted by: Michael ||
07/29/2003 10:59 Comments ||
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#8
Michael - Magic is right! The "law" is whatever the highest ranking Royal that chooses to respond wants it to be. That's about the best definition I can come up with.
Terry Hicks, the father of Australian Guantanamo Bay detainee David Hicks, admits his son may have received military training with Al Qaeda but not terrorist training. Terry Hicks stood inside a wire cage near Broadway, one of Manhattan's busiest streets, to highlight the conditions he says his son is experiencing at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. Mr Hicks is meeting with US lawyers to discuss plans for his son's trial. David Hicks has not been charged yet but is one of six detainees being considered for the first military tribunals. Mr Hicks has spent the last few weeks retracing his son's steps in Afghanistan and Pakistan. "If he's guilty I accept that but I don't think he is judging what I've seen in the last 3 weeks," Terry Hicks said.
"Nope. Nope. Pure as the driven snow..."
Mr Hicks says his son received military training from Al Qaeda but he says it was in preparation to fight for the Taliban against the Northern Alliance. "A terrorist is someone who is trained to kill civilians and destroy civilian property and David's not that type of fellow anyway," Mr Hicks said. Mr Hicks says his claims are based on information provided by Taliban and Northern Alliance sources during his recent visit to Pakistan and Afghanistan. Last week, the US agreed not to seek the death penalty if David Hicks is found guilty.
"Y'see, he trained as a Taliban. That means he learned how to beat women and whip people with battery cables. He don't even know how to fly a plane!"
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/29/2003 00:17 ||
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"If he's guilty I accept that but I don't think he is judging what I've seen in the last 3 weeks," Terry Hicks said.
Well, d'ya think that there could be a wee bit of a bias here? I mean, just a WEE bit????? Hmmmmmm?????
;)
#2
Lessee:
1) The Kid was trained by the Terrorist Org Al Qaeda. Check!
2) Daddy asserts it was Military training, not Terrorist training, from an Org, Al Qaeda, with no uniformed Military and nothing to indicate it knows anything about bona-fide Military training, but mountains of evidence that everyone ELSE it trained was trained as a Terrorist. Check!
3) He chose to fight for the Taliban and, by extension, Al Qaeda, his mentors. Check!
4) The Taliban was a Terrorist Org in its own right. Check!
5) The Taliban "Govt" was recognized as the legitmate "Govt" of Afghanistan by only 3 Govts in the world (Pak, SA, UAE). Check!
6) All 3 withdrew their recognition when the US announced it would ally with the Northern Aliance to remove the Taliban from power to end their repression and their support for Al Qaeda. Check!
7) The Kid decided to stay in Afghanistan to fight for the Taliban / Al Qaeda against the Northern Alliance and the US. Check!
8) The US and the Northern Alliance began the war to remove the Taliban / Al Qaeda. Check!
9) The Kid went to war; he wore no uniform and carried an AK-47 and admits he "fought" the US & Northern Alliance to defend the Taliban / Al Qaeda. Check!
10) But Daddy sez he's not a Terrorist. Check!
11) Daddy's argument is that he was Military-trained not Terrorist-trained. Check!
12) There is no evidence whatsoever to support Daddy's assertion. Check!
13) Now Daddy stands in a wire cage on the sidewalk of a street in NY in symbolic protest. Check!
14) Daddy is a fucking LOONEY. Check!
Methinks this is one of the narrowest legal positions imaginable - the razor blade of splitting hairs. A clearer case of being a Terrorist and, by logical extension, merit for death, is pretty hard to imagine, short of surviving as a suicide bomber. This shitforbrains Kid picked up a weapon to defend the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
Regards the death penalty, I believe it should be asserted for all of the Afghanistan combatants as, by definition, they demonstrated an overt desire / willingness to kill for the unholy terrorist alliance of the Taliban / Al Qaeda. It must be applied uniformly.
Given my druthers, the asshole John Walker "American Taliban" Lindh should have been the first to be put down - and should be pushing up daisies already. Removing the death penalty option for the Brits and, now, this Aussie are mistakes, as well, but the excessive and undeserved mercy shown Lindh makes this problematic. Now, IMHO, you can't apply it to ANY of the battlefield combatants from Afghanistan, regardless of their nationality.
#3
terry hicks is a man in denial. His son admitted it according to prev. stories.
Besides: fighting for the taliban against the northern alliance is still treachery as the northern alliance were our allies: we were fighting with them against the taliban!
does he think we feel sympathy knowing he fought for the group that beat women back to the stone age and bombed the bamiyan buddhas? And encouraged and tolerated and hid Al Qaeda?
Send him to the goddam firing squad, don't send him back here. Gitmo is not the place for him, hell is.
Problem is, Terry Hicks is SURE to be on the front page of the al-SMH tomorrow in his cage whining about how unfair the USA is , and australia's hate-america media will lap it up and spread it and drive a HUGE WEDGE BETWEEN STRONG ALLIES.
#6
Mister Hicks' little son should NOT be killed by the United States. We need to take this little piece of street litter, give him just enough parachute training to make it to the ground alive, and drop him somewhere on the northern side of Papua New Guinea's mountain range. In broad daylight.
Two days before this takes place, we need to fly a squadron of UH-60 Blackhawks over the area, announcing a free lunch, to be dropped from the sky.....
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
07/29/2003 12:07 Comments ||
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Denial is not just a river in Egypt! Mr. Hicks needs some counseling. Maybe he can get together with the father of John Bin Walker and create a support group? "Parents and Idiots Getting Stupid" or "PIGS" for short. Sort of fits in with the whole Islam thing.
#8
Here is part of the story from The Age:
'Australian Taliban fighter David Hicks has freely admitted to Australian intelligence agencies that he trained with the terrorist group al-Qaeda, a senior intelligence source has told The Age.
The comments support claims by Prime Minister John Howard, which have been denied by Hicks' family and legal team, who are yet to speak to the 27-year-old detainee at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.
"If it revolves around him having trained with al-Qaeda, then it's a lay-down misere," the intelligence source told The Age.
"There's this artificial debate going on with his lawyers, saying he was only with the Taliban - but he's never denied training with al-Qaeda."
In four interviews with ASIO and the Australian Federal Police, the latest of which occurred in May this year, Hicks has apparently made no effort to deny an association with the terrorist organisation.'
#9
He trained with Al-Qaida, but he's not a terrorist?
And I'm sure, if the opportunity presented itself, he wouldn't kill or destroy an American target would he?
Yeah, right!
Armed robbers broke into Iraqâs embassy building in Moscow overnight and stole $US3m ($4.54m) in cash from its safe, Russian media reported. An embassy official called police early today to report that three men with stockings masking their faces had broken into the embassy late last night, NTV television reported. Interfax news agency said the men were carrying guns. They tied up the only security guard patrolling the site and stole his key to the safe, running away with $US3m ($4.54m) and 114,000 euro ($198,192), an unnamed Iraqi diplomat interviewed by telephone told the channel. Problem #1: How many security guards get keys to embassy safes?
Police officers guarding the site noticed nothing suspicious and the robbers broke into the back of the building, Interfax quoted a police source as saying. Problem #2: Cops outside didnât see three guys with stocking masks and guns running to a getaway car? And how many embassies in Moscow donât have cops front and back?
The report quoted an unnamed Iraqi diplomat as saying that all of the robbers had spoken Russian, prompting Iraqi officials to rule out that embassy staff were involved. Problem #3: Unnamed Iraqi diplomats/officials seem to be your only source.
Abbas Khalaf, the ambassador to Moscow under Saddam Hussein, returned to Baghdad in June, less than three months after US-led forces toppled Saddamâs regime and took control of Iraq. Humm, where were you and what were you doing, Abbas?
The Iraqi diplomat told Interfax that Khalaf had quit state service but would likely return to Moscow eventually as a civilian. Howâs that retirement pay?
The embassy continued to be staffed by lower-level diplomats but NTV reported that it was due to shut down all operations by August 1. OK, just before the embassy is shut down (and people lose their jobs), three mystery gunmen show up, know where the money is and where to find the key, disapear without a trace and itâs not a inside job? Oh, and by the way, isnât this the third Iraqi embassy to be robbed this month?
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 2:10:30 PM ||
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Forest fires swept through the French Riviera on Tuesday, killing at least three people, devastating scenic woods and forcing the evacuation of thousands of people from prized vacation areas. Firefighters speculated that the fires â some 30 that broke out nearly simultaneously on Monday â were caused by arson. Molotov cocktails were found in the region, according to radio and television reports. Thatâs a lot of fires for one arsonist.
The mayor of Roquebrune-Sur-Argens, Luc Jousse, called the fires ââa new form of terrorism.ââ Corsicans?
Firefighters and equipment were sent from elsewhere in France, and even from Italy, to back up the approximately 1,500 firefighters who worked through the night. Some 100 extra soldiers also were sent to help 300 troops already in place. Fires raged through some of the most prized vacation areas in the Var region, concentrated in the areas around Frejus, 25 miles from Cannes and Sainte-Maxime, to the west. President Jacques Chirac, in Papeete, Tahiti, promised that ââthe guilty will be sought out with extreme rigorââ and ââsanctions will be of an extraordinary severity.ââ "Now excuse me, I have to work on my tan."
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 9:32:25 AM ||
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#1
With the growing Islamic population of "La Belle France" don't ya know that those trees are gonna interfer with the time honored occupations of goat herding and camel driving. Maybe if they had allowed low scale burns to burn off the scrub then they wouldn't be seeing their version of what we had at Yellowstone
Posted by: Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire ||
07/29/2003 11:34 Comments ||
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#2
Guess this isn't the fire department's week to go on strike.
#3
No doubt but that the tinder like conditions will be pinned on the Bush administration's failure to ratify the Kyoto treaty. Causuality, like logic, falls to the wayside in the minds of the rabid left seeking to tear down the President.
EFL
Ashamed of being the only European capital with no mosque for Muslim citizens and immigrants, the Greek foreign ministry is pushing hard for the construction of the first proper mosque and an Islamic cultural center in Athens vicinity in almost 200 years. "Not a single mosque has operated officially in the capital or its immediate surroundings since Greece gained its independence from the Ottoman Empire in the early 19th Century," the BBC News Online said Tuesday, July 29.
Hmmm... Beat 'em by 16 days. Wonder if they got their info the same place we did?
No doubt somewhere thereâs a imam preaching about how Greece needs to return to the rightful rule of the Ottoman Empire, oh wait, thatâs Turkey. Never mind.
The small Greek town Peania, north of the capital, will become the focus for tens of thousands of Muslims living in the capital with the construction of the first proper mosque, reported the broadcast. Drew the short straw, did you?
More than 30,000 square meters of land have been set aside for the large mosque compound which will be paid for by Saudi Arabia at an estimated cost of millions of dollars. Who else?
The grand mosque is expected to be built before the Olympics get under way in just over a yearâs time, putting the country under international spotlight. Of course, they need a base of operations for the "tourists" coming to the games.
Ambassadors representing Arab countries have been trying to coax the Greek Government into building a proper mosque for almost 30 years. They are now certain they have succeeded.
"All the preparations are complete," says Abdullah Abdullah, the Palestinian representative in Athens. Iâll just bet they are.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 9:15:51 AM ||
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#1
There goes the neighborhood. Have you ever experienced a "Call to Prayers" at 3:30am? Not to be forgotten... nor forgiven. Peania will be 100% Muslim within months, if not already. Saudi petrobucks. Of course... who coulda doubted it?
#4
Constantinople has a number of churches and is still the seat of the Eastern Orthadox Church. Now what I'd like to see is a Christian church( any denomination )or a Jewish House of Prayer in Mecca or Medina. That would really put the twist in the fundo's undies
Posted by: Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire ||
07/29/2003 11:28 Comments ||
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#5
The Turkish occupation of Greece left a lot of bad feelings that still haven't healed. One of the worst Turkish practises was to take Greek boys away from their parents and send them to Turkey to be raised as Islamobots.
I would have thought Greece would have demanded an official apology and restitution for this but maybe they need the construction dollars so bad they are willing to do without it.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/29/2003 13:29 Comments ||
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#7
mhw> Given how Greece and Turkey have modern-day grievances, (e.g. Cyprus, e.g. Aegean) it seems rather silly for you to be speaking of what occurred in the 1700s. And suggesting that we demand an official apology? We are currently demanding the withdrawal of Turkish troops from Cyprus. Which is rather more important than any kind of mostly meaningless apology about the century-old doings of the former Ottoman Empire.
#11
Athens, huh? Bet this place moves right up the charts on the "holiest place in Islam" list. They gotta establish a foothold, right? And with that security sieve of an airport nearby, this place could become real popular, real quick.
The number of American tourists visiting France has dropped dramatically this year, by as much as 80 percent in the first half of 2003, the newspaper Liberation reported Monday, quoting the president of a group representing Franceâs travel agents. "Our colleagues across the Atlantic no longer schedule France," Balderacchi told the daily newspaper. Balderacchiâs somber assessment was countered by the Tourism Ministry, which put the decrease in American visitors at 30 percent for the first five months of 2003, attributing the decline mainly to the weak dollar. The weak dollar...Yeah, thatâs the ticket!....How ya feelin now Jacque? Dominique? Tough being the immoral center of the universe, ainât it?
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 8:51:46 AM ||
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#1
oops - should've credited Drudge with a hat tip
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 9:19 Comments ||
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#2
I worry about our mental health. I can see a business opportunity, though. All those 'Merkins who used to go over to Phrawnce will be having DT's soon from the lack of abuse and insolence. Opening a chain of salons where people are served teeny tiny portions of unidentifiable meat swimming in a myriad of sauces (but tastefully and arfully presented - on dirty plates) and chicory coffee that's gone cold by incredibly arrogant snobby waiters who are inclinded (it's in the Union Rules, I'm sure) to debase and abuse the clientele - it can't miss! They'll come for the fix. They'll come back "or I shall taunt you a second time!" Without it, WTF would they talk about at the next cocktail party? Nope. Can't miss.
#4
PD, those abuse free Americans can go to Quebec if they need abuse. If that's not enough perhaps they could wear a George W. Bush shirt and visit one of the largely liberal cities in America.
#5
Nice--the French are going to be hurting this year. Americans aren't spending money there; the Eiffel Tower had to be closed for some time due to fire; and now the Riviera itself has some raging wildfires, per the post above. Perhaps this will motivate the voters to put Chiraq out on his butt come election time?
Posted by: Dar ||
07/29/2003 12:22 Comments ||
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#6
The Polanisians should be able to pull up the tourist slack. They are used to having their nosed pinched by the well bread.
#10
However, they have landed the new Al-Qaeda headquarters to be built on the former site of Notre Dame Cathedral. That should increase pilgrimages
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
07/29/2003 20:42 Comments ||
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#11
NMM: They won't have to tear it down. Add a dome, a few minarets, and you got instant mosque. They would have to fumigate that infidel stink out though.
Forensic experts in Bosnia began exhuming bodies from what is thought to be the largest mass grave yet found in the country. The grave in eastern Bosnia is believed to contain the remains of about 700 Muslim men and boys killed during the 1995 Srebrenica massacres. About 8,000 Muslims, mainly men and boys, were killed by Bosnian Serb soldiers who overran the town in 1995 even though it was declared a UN-protected area. Itâs been called the worst atrocity since the Second World War. Abetted by the Dutch, French, and of course, the UN. Maybe "abetted" is too strong, but there are such things as âsins of omissionâ.
The head of the Muslim Commission for Missing Persons for the region of Tuzla told the Associated Press it became aware of the site after people said they saw trucks loaded with bodies in the area. However, the commission kept the findings secret for about a year to guard against possible disturbances. Dear European friends: remind me again why most of Europe was against NATO action in Kosovo?
Posted by: Rafael ||
07/29/2003 1:05:23 AM ||
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#1
Wait a second, after reading this, I want to change my comment, they did abet.
Posted by: Rafael ||
07/29/2003 1:14 Comments ||
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#2
Dear Muslim friends: remind me again how it is that the US is racist and only targets Muslims?
#3
I have a suspicion that the Bosnians just aren't Islamic enough...
Posted by: El Id ||
07/29/2003 8:02 Comments ||
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#4
...to count.
Posted by: El Id ||
07/29/2003 8:03 Comments ||
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#5
"Dear European friends: remind me again why most of Europe was against NATO action in Kosovo?"
Well, to quote from an Orson Scott Card essay at: http://www.ornery.org/essays/2000-10-25-3.html
****
And now it isn't a fight between two nations. It's Serbia trying to deal with a revolution by an Albanian ethnic majority in the province of Kosovo. The Kosovar separatists have been assassinating Serbs and Kosovars whom they accuse of being collaborators. So far, however, the Serbs have been very restrained in their response (restrained, that is, for Serbs) -- only about fifty people are known to have died in the Serbian counter-revolutionary campaign up to that point.
And there was nothing happening that week that was different from the week before. No pressing emergency.
But there was that impeachment vote in the House ...
So our bombers flew. But they had to fly very, very high, because if Bill Clinton is anything, he's an absolute political coward -- he couldn't bear to face the possibility of even one U.S. pilot getting shot down. So our bombs fell from such a "safe" altitude that we were bound to kill civilians willy-nilly.
The Serbs took exception to this. They'd been trying to behave themselves (for Serbs), and hardly killed anybody in Kosovo, and now the U.S. was bombing them. Heck, nobody bombed them for killing tens of thousands in Bosnia! So if they were going to get punished like this anyway, they might as well go ahead and do the ethnic cleansing thing. Drive out all those Albanians and pretty soon, no Kosovo problem. Right?
Maybe the Serbs would have eventually gotten around to killing Albanian Kosovars or driving them out of Serbia. We'll never know. What we do know is, not only did the bombs Bill Clinton ordered kill Serbian civilians, they also provided the direct provocation or excuse for Milosevic to turn his boys loose on the Kosovar people. We know the results. The body count. The refugees. The destruction.
****
In short, man. Thousands of Serb civilians died in the bombings on Yugoslavia for quite obscure "humanitarian" benefits -- could the Serb attacks on the Kosovar terrorists have turned genocidal? Perhaps they would have. But so far they *hadn't* done so -- the bombings killed dozens times more civilians than the Serbs had killed in Kosovo.
And the American de facto support of the terrorists of UCK (who *initiated* that little war, I remind you), is probably one of the indirect causes of the civil war in FYRO Macedonia, and more people killed there. Greater Albania and stuff.
But if you thought it a cause worth intervening in, wouldn't it have been nice to send some ground troops instead so that there'd be fewer civilian casualties from the bombings?
But the polls showed that public support for the Kosovo bombings drastically decreased if there was a possibility for *any* American casualties. I guess those Serb and Kosovar civilians aren't really humans and their deaths don't mean much.
"Human Rights Watch documented 96 cases of rape by Serbian and Yugoslav forces against Kosovar Albanian women immediately before and during the 1999 bombing campaign, and believes that many more incidents of rape have gone unreported.
The report said that rapes were not rare and isolated acts committed by individuals, but rather were used deliberately as an instrument to terrorize the civilian population, extort money from families, and push people to flee their homes. Virtually all of the sexual assaults Human Rights Watch has documented were gang rapes involving at least two perpetrators.
The 37-page report is the first to combine all credible reporting on rape during the Kosovo conflict, and includes a map (in PDF format)of all documented incidents of rape in Kosovo.
"These are not occasional incidents committed by a few crazy men," said Regan Ralph, executive director of the Women's Rights Division at Human Rights Watch. "Rape was used as an instrument of war in Kosovo, and it should be punished as such. The men who committed these terrible crimes must be brought to justice."
"In general, it appears that the Yugoslav Army was in command during the war, with the police and paramilitaries subordinate to its orders, although top officials of the Serbian Ministry of Internal Affairs exercised significant influence over the campaign. The army controlled the main roads and the borders, coordinating and facilitating the "ethnic cleansing." The police and paramilitaries were more directly involved in expulsions and the destruction of villages, with artillery support from the army. It is during these operations that men were separated from women and children, interrogated about the KLA, and sometimes executed.
Typically, as told by witnesses from all over Kosovo, the army and special police forces surrounded a village and shelled it from a distance. Regular and special police forces then moved in, swept the village, and gathered the villagers in a centralized location. Men were separated from women and children for interrogation about the KLA. Regular police and paramilitaries then looted the village, as well as stealing whatever the villagers carried with them and destroying their identity documents. The village was then left to the police, paramilitaries, and local Serbian militias, who looted and burned the remains. The women, children, and elderly were often expelled, and men with suspected ties to the KLA were sometimes executed. "
#8
from american radio works (funded by Corp for Public Broadcasting)
"Bowing to international pressureâand promises of hundreds of millions of dollars in aid and creditsâSerbian authorities sent the country's former ruler, Slobodan Milosevic, on a secret journey that ended in a jail cell at the United Nations' International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) in The Hague. Milosevic was charged with crimes against humanity for killings and expulsions of ethnic Albanians during the war in Kosovo; he now faces a separate indictment for war crimes during the 1991-92 conflict in Croatia.
As a military aircraft was flying Slobodan Milosevic to Holland, Serbian state television broadcast shocking images that exposed one of Milosevic's top secret wartime operations. The program broadcast raw footage of workers unearthing a mass grave on the outskirts of Belgrade. In the report a Serbian pathologist described the discovery of charred remains of some 40 people, including two young children. For many Serbs, the unusually frank broadcast signaled an end to the 13-year Milosevic era, a period in which hundreds of thousands of people were killed and deported in brutal warfare.
After more than four months of excavations, Serbian officials now say they have located at least seven mass graves and some 430 bodies in Serbia outside of Kosovo province. Those sites include graves at Batajnica near Belgrade, at Petrovo Selo in eastern Serbia and near Perucac Dam in western Serbia. Serbian police and western war crimes investigators believe most of the victims are ethnic Albanian civilians - including women and children - killed and shipped out of Kosovo in refrigerator trucks. Many were shot at close range."
#9
theres plenty more - in addition to mass graves in SERBIA (note - thats why we didnt find mass graves in Kosovo) theres evidence of bodies cremated at industrial facilities in Serbia.
#10
in what ari leaves out is
1. the war was started by the Serbs, who eliminated Kosovo cultural autonomy, closed the albanian language university, etc before the Kosovo revolt began.
2. The ethnic cleansing began before the NATO bombing campaign.
3. The accelerated ethnic cleansing campaign after the bombing began was well planned, and could not have been a spontaneous reaction to the bombing campaign.
4. The campaign was NOT a campaign against KLA terrorist, but against the entire ethnic Albanian population in Kosovo.
5. The Serbs could have stopped the bombing at any time by agreeing to withdraw.
6. Since fighting NATO troops on the ground was obviously Serb strategy, its absurd for a Serb apologist to complain that we didnt use ground troops. No, we're not going to fight our wars in the ways our adversaries want us to. Learn to live with it.
"Thousands of Serb civilians died in the bombings on Yugoslavia for quite obscure "humanitarian" benefits...the bombings killed dozens times more civilians than the Serbs had killed in Kosovo. "
and liberalhawk smacks it out of the park for a 4-bagger.
Aris, it looks like it's time for a relief pitcher...
Posted by: Carl in NH ||
07/29/2003 12:09 Comments ||
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#13
Aris? looks like the decapitated head ball is in your court
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 12:21 Comments ||
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#14
Lots of blame to go around on both sides. I was totally against US involvement in that war. No different than whats been going on all over the world. No dog in that fight. So now what, Serbs and Muslims live with a buffer zone maintained by US arms. When I saw the first Trade Tower burning I thought it was the Serbs. I still can't figure out the jihadis reason, something about allah.
#15
Lucky, I'll see if I can dig up my dummy's guide to 9-11 and look that up for you. I seem to remember reading that it was caused by roots. Not clear on the details, however....
Posted by: Carl in NH ||
07/29/2003 13:22 Comments ||
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#16
Carl in NH: I saw Aris' pitch. He threw a hanging curve. Not the first time. If Sosa could whack them out like LH, then Cubs would be in first.
Aris: What is it about the Serb-Greek-French triangle?
Posted by: Michael ||
07/29/2003 13:39 Comments ||
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#17
"in what ari leaves out is 1. the war was started by the Serbs, who eliminated Kosovo cultural autonomy, closed the albanian language university, etc before the Kosovo revolt began."
What's your definition of starting a war? Yes, the Serbs elimininated the autonomy of Kosovo. Them bad. You can call the war of the UCK terrorists started a just one, if you want to, but I don't think that you deny it's they that began the attacks.
"2. The ethnic cleansing began before the NATO bombing campaign."
It had actually began from Kosovars against the Serb population, then Serbs struck back twice as hard. At the Kosovar population that's true - them evil. But then again the ethnic Albanian would in turn (after victory was given them on a platter) drag FYRO Macedonia into civil war. What did FYRO Macedonia do to them? Other than standing on the way of a Greater Albania?
"4. The campaign was NOT a campaign against KLA terrorist, but against the entire ethnic Albanian population in Kosovo."
Yes. And the campaign in Croatia's Krajna was against the entirety of the Serb population. No NATO intervention there for some reason. For some reason it let the Serbs be ethnically cleansed out of Croatia -- and yet stopped the Albanians be cleansed out of Kosovo.
I don't see any clear moral guideline for interventions here. I see opportunism and hypocricy.
Is it bad of me to ask for some consistency here? How can I believe an inconsistent rhetoric by a politician, and how can *you* trust a policy that's inconsistent? What is it about stopping the Serbs at any cost against their actions which didn't also apply to stopping the Croats in theirs? The ICC court has indictments for people and war criminals from all these nations, you know.
"5. The Serbs could have stopped the bombing at any time by agreeing to withdraw."
To withdraw from what? From Kosovo? Their national territory? But yes, they could have stopped the bombing. Weirdly enough for black-white people in the world, the fact that Milosevic was an evil bastard, doesn't give the *other* side the right to commit war crimes either.
"6. Since fighting NATO troops on the ground was obviously Serb strategy, its absurd for a Serb apologist to complain that we didnt use ground troops."
I'm not a Serb apologist, I'm a NATO accuser. Did the Kosovo bombing really prevent ethnic cleansing? Or did it simply make sure that the Serbs would be the ones to get cleansed out of Kosovo? With a new civil war igniting in FYRO Macedonia.
"No, we're not going to fight our wars in the ways our adversaries want us to. Learn to live with it."
Yes well, I'm sure that's what the Serbs must have said to themselves, when the rest of the world condemned their war crimes. And I condemn the USA's. And I condemn the people in those polls who thought it was fine to kill thousands of Serb civilians in the bombings, but somehow thought the war was unacceptable if a single US soldier died.
Or were you in favour of bombing Croatia also, to stop the Serb ethnic cleansing? If so atleast you are being consistent -- but the US administration certainly wasn't.
And no intervention from the UN and the Europeans either. Amazing since it is their backyard.
"I don't see any clear moral guideline for interventions here."
Well, when you don't see any initiative from the Europeans, and the UN being without balls, somebody had to do the obvious. And I recall the outrage in the US came after those market bombings. So you had a US President willing to step up, seeing that if he didn't, the slaughter would continue.
Aris, I've heard of being the devil's advocate, but you're just up the wall sometimes. If it's anti-American, you're there!
Posted by: Rafael ||
07/29/2003 15:13 Comments ||
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#19
1. ok the serbs started the conflict, not the war. I was responding to the general serb apologist line that what serbia did was justified cause the kla started it. The Kosovars did not start a drive toward independence - they responded to an attempt to deny them cultural autonomy. The serbs initiated the conflict.
2. the ethnic cleansing was by the kosovars against the serb population. Well, no, the majority of kosovar albanians supported moderates who were not part of the KLA. The KLA alone attacked the ethnic Serb population, and they rose in power as the Serbs crushed moderates. Would the Israelis be justified in ethnically cleansing the palestinians because Hamas is trying to ethnically cleanse Jews?
3. No response.
4. Well if you had said NATO was hypocritical because of the Krajina, that would have been different. But you did not. Should we have been harder on the Croats - yes, of course - indeed it would have been better not to rush to recognize Croat independence - but it was newly confident Germany that led the way, not the US. And the situations are not quite comparable, IIUC. For one thing the govt of FRY was actively supporting the ethnic Serbs in Krajina, while the govt of Albania was not supporting the KLA. Croatia was in the midst of a war against FRY, which was attempting to stop Croat independence - no such situation in 1999 Serbia. And loss of the Krajina would have been strategically and economically fatal for Croatia - not the case wrt to kosovo. Nonetheless we should have acted wrt to Croatia- and IIUC we ulitimately did pressure Croatia to allow the return of ethnic Serbs to the Krajina.
Certainly Kosovo was seen in the context of NATO failure to act in all the earlier situations, but most notably in Bosnia.
5. From their national territory, which they had given up absolute sovereign rights to by their practice of genocide. Yes, they could have done that.
6. Deliberately killing civilians is a war crime. Killing civilians of a specified racial, ethnic or religious group, for the purpose of reducing the numbers of that group, is genocide, and is a unique war crime Attacking military and strategic targets, with the unintended result that civilians are killed, is NOT a war crime. The attacker is required to avoid targeting civilians - he is not required to use ground troops or in other respects to sacrifice his own troops to avoid collateral damage. Was the US obliged to invade europe in 1943 in order to avoid collateral damage (far higher than what Serbia suffered in 1999) to German civilians during our aerial bombing?
Did the US stop ethnic cleansing in Kosovo - yes we did, we stopped the ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Albanians. And there was certainly no comparable organized campaign of genocide against ethnic Serbs. There were incidents of revenge attacks, and some ethnic serbs did leave. There are still far more ethnic serbs left in Kosovo than there are Germans in Sudetenland or Danzig, and the territory is STILL treated as part of FRY. As far as a civil war in Macedonia, it seems odd for you to be pinning that on NATO, given that Macedonia supported NATO in kosovo, given that NATO has helped to end that civil war (which was fought over different issues) and given that Greece wont even recognize THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA by its constitutional name.
#20
"And no intervention from the UN and the Europeans either."
Yes. Your point?
"Amazing since it is their backyard."
Not so amazing given they can claim they didn't have the *power* to intervene.
But since the US obviously did have such power (they demonstrated it) it's upon its administration to explain the obvious inconsistencies in behaviour.
At least the "Europeans" were being consistent in their weakness.
"Well, when you don't see any initiative from the Europeans, and the UN being without balls, somebody had to do the obvious."
What's the obvious? Become the ally of UCK? The US in those bombings didn't take a stand against ethnic cleansing - if so they'd have intervened in Croatia, they could.
They didn't take a stand against genocide - if so they'd have intervened in Rwanda, it was taking place a hundred times worse there, they'd have intervened earlier in Bosnia. And they certainly didn't take a stand against civil war, or tyranny or whatever.
And the result for that inconsistency is that the UCK terrorists saw that intervention for what it was - nothing but a tactical ploy that indicated nothing and meant nothing for peace or justice in region. Serbs had simply lucked out in getting Clinton as an enemy. And the UCK had lucked in in having him as a friend. Which meant that the UCK would have no qualm in provoking even more murder and war in FYRO Macedonia. Which, predictably, NATO (and Europeans and UN, if it makes you happy) would *not* stop to crush, as they had crushed the Serb tyranny. Instead, having the UCK as their newfound pals, they'd try to convince FYRO Macedonia to find a peaceful solution and granting concessions to the separatists.
*That* is the problem with inconsistency and arbitrary decisions. Clinton simply sided with one murderous chauvinism against another. No moral bravo there.
#21
first the opinions of the europeans certainly mattered - it was Blair more than Clinton who pushed for intervention in Kosovo (this is often forgotten, in the attempt to tie it to Monica). If the Euros had pushed for intervention in Krajina, its likely the US would have gone along. They didnt, for all the reasons i listed above.
As for Rwanda, i certainly think we should have gone in there. I will point out that the Europeans were just as reluctant as we were, and the French were actually on the side of the genocidaires. In any case the US had a severe aversion to humanitarian intervention in africa, due to overreaction to what happened in Somalia. I think (and thought then) that the US should have intervened. I did not march in the streets about it - i was caught up in my own affairs, and it happened very fast, before the horror truely sank in. However I am not proud of either my own or my country's behavior in Rwanda. I do not however see that because we shamefully tolerated genocide there, we are obliged to do so everywhere. Its possible to learn from your mistakes, and i think to some extent our willingness to intervene in Kosovo was caused by our realization of our mistake in Rwanda.
As for Macedonia, thats what we in english call a red herring (IE a distraction) Macedonia was not a genocide, but a civil war. Negotiation was the appropriate response.
If clinton had simply sided with one murderous chauvinism against another, we would have let kosovars attack Serbs. Instead we have kept several thousand troops in Kosovo, troops who are there NOW, when we need them in Iraq, to help rebuild a multiethnic Kosovo. The statement in your next to last sentence is therefore an outrageous lie.
#22
first the opinions of the europeans certainly mattered - it was Blair more than Clinton who pushed for intervention in Kosovo (this is often forgotten, in the attempt to tie it to Monica). If the Euros had pushed for intervention in Krajina, its likely the US would have gone along. They didnt, for all the reasons i listed above.
As for Rwanda, i certainly think we should have gone in there. I will point out that the Europeans were just as reluctant as we were, and the French were actually on the side of the genocidaires. In any case the US had a severe aversion to humanitarian intervention in africa, due to overreaction to what happened in Somalia. I think (and thought then) that the US should have intervened. I did not march in the streets about it - i was caught up in my own affairs, and it happened very fast, before the horror truely sank in. However I am not proud of either my own or my country's behavior in Rwanda. I do not however see that because we shamefully tolerated genocide there, we are obliged to do so everywhere. Its possible to learn from your mistakes, and i think to some extent our willingness to intervene in Kosovo was caused by our realization of our mistake in Rwanda.
As for Macedonia, thats what we in english call a red herring (IE a distraction) Macedonia was not a genocide, but a civil war. Negotiation was the appropriate response.
If clinton had simply sided with one murderous chauvinism against another, we would have let kosovars attack Serbs. Instead we have kept several thousand troops in Kosovo, troops who are there NOW, when we need them in Iraq, to help rebuild a multiethnic Kosovo. The statement in your next to last sentence is therefore an outrageous lie.
#23
Outstanding, LH. You tell him. We dealt with Milosevic and the Serb thugs because the Yurp-peons wouldn't. Clinton was a scoundrel, but he did finally manage to get things right in Yugoslavia. Milosevic's been jugged, the graves are being uncovered, and the killing has stopped -- for now. But if we withdraw from Kosovo and Bosnia, the killing will start again, just as soon as the French start looking the other way -- about a hour or so.
LH is right about Rwanda, too -- we should have gone there, and damn the French for not stopping that.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/29/2003 16:16 Comments ||
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#24
from the report tot he UNSC(2003) of the Secretary Generals rep in Kosovo
"The number of returns of displaced persons was still far too small, he said, but a Framework for Returns was now in place. Multi-ethnicity had been gradually improving. Yet, a lot more work was required for Kosovo to become a truly multi-ethnic society. In a positive development, all non-Serb leaders had signed an open appeal urging refugees and displaced people to return.
LH - yup, all non-Serb leaders want displaced people (including Serbs) to return.
One standard where progress had been lagging was direct dialogue with Belgrade on practical issues, he continued. The recent European Union-Western Balkans summit in Thessaloniki, Greece, had changed that, and direct dialogue on practical issues was put on track.
LH - yup, the UN admin is trying to reach out to Belgrade to discuss practical issues. Belgrade is the sovereign power, and the UN and NATO have always respected that. This is not a greater Albania.
Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq had all demonstrated h0ow difficult it was to win the peace, to build functioning institutions and to start up the economy, he stated. Kosovo had the added burden of its unresolved political status. Much remained to be done to complete Kosovoâs transformation into a society where all its people could live in security and dignity. But with the help of thousands of men and women from all communities in Kosovo and from most countries in the world, he left behind a solid foundation.
LH - yup, the goal here is for all communities to work together.
Other speakers in todayâs meeting stressed that every effort must be made to overcome obstacles to freedom of movement, particularly for the Serb community and called for an end to impunity for those who committed violent, ethnic-based acts. Speakers supported the âstandards before statusâ policy implemented by
LH - yup, still plenty of Serbs there, they havent been ethnically cleansed. But their condition needs to be improved, for sure.
Mr. Steiner. They cautioned that transferring responsibilities to the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government must be gradual and take into account the real capacities of the institutions to assume their responsibilities.
Speaking on behalf of the European Union and associated States, the representative of Italy said at the European Union-Western Balkans Summit of Thessaloniki on 21 June, the European Council had reiterated its determination to fully support the European perspective of the Western Balkan countries. The European Union would ensure that Kosovoâs European prospects were not held back by the issue of final status. Political stability in Kosovo required democratic, stable and functioning local institutions. The common objective was to build effective, transparent and accountable institutions to the benefit of all communities.
LH - thats right, of benefir to all communities. Including the Serbs, who are STILL a community there.
On the concern expressed about the establishment of parallel administrative institutions, the representative of Serbia and Montenegro stressed that both majority and minority communities must be held responsible for establishing the values of a democratic, multi-ethnic society.
LH - yup, serbia and Montenegro accepts the FACT that there is still a Serb community in Kosovo, and a prospect for a multiethnic society.
Otherwise, it would be difficult to expect the most vulnerable, the minorities, not to reach out for help elsewhere or to try to create their own institutions.
LH- Ah, but if things dont get better for the Serb community, they might try to intervene.
The Albanian representative, however, while agreeing on the need for inter-ethnic dialogue to, among other things, ease the speedy return of displaced persons, cautioned minorities to avoid outside influence and consider themselves as an integral part of the political and social fabric of Kosovo.
LH - which would make the albanians happy.
So the Serbs were not ethnically cleansed, and the NATO intervention opened up the POSSIBILITY of a multiethnic society, but theres squabbling about how to get there.
#25
"Yes. Your point?"
Well you blame the Americans for not intervening in Croatia, and I'm saying the Europeans did not intervene either. Anywhere. "Not so amazing given they can claim they didn't have the *power* to intervene."
You're kidding right? "explain the obvious inconsistencies in behaviour."
There is no inconsistency Aris. It only exists in your head. "At least the "Europeans" were being consistent in their weakness."
Of all the things you've said, this has got to be the stupidest. You see a guy being beaten to death in front you, but you won't intervene because you're afraid of being inconsistant 'cause you've never done it before??? "What's the obvious?"
Using force. "if so they'd have intervened in Croatia, they could."
They were waiting for Europe, it was their mess. And if they did intervene, you would be the first one in front of your local US embassy protesting. Speaking of hypocrytical. "if so they'd have intervened in Rwanda"
So they're intervening now in Iraq and you're protesting that too. Make up your mind. Oh wait, your mind is already made up: if it's American, it's bad. Yugoslavia, however, was going on for a lot longer than Rwanda. With no solution in sight, because Europeans like you were too concerned about appearing "inconsistant". "for peace or justice in region"
There's peace now, isn't there? Unless it's the justice part that you're concerned about, in which case you simply picked a side (anything anti-American). "Clinton simply sided with one murderous chauvinism against another."
Well that's your opinion, see the 'choosing sides' comment above. But anyway, what was the end result of the NATO campaign, Aris? What would have happened if NATO didn't intervene? How much genocidal killing does it take to reach your threshold of tolerance? Or are you just worried about appearing inconsistant?
You're arguments are weak and irrational, that is, if you were trying to be rational in the first place.
Posted by: Rafael ||
07/29/2003 16:23 Comments ||
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#26
what particularly interesting is that Ari holds the Croatia case up against the US, but not against Germany. And he holds up the Rwanda case against the US, but not against France.
Could it just be that hes less concerned with Krajina Serbs, or Rwandan Tutsis, then he is with supporting a Franco-German alliance against American power - a power that is forever condemned, NOT because of ex-yugoslavia or Rwanda in the '90's but because of its support for the Greek colonels in the 1960's and 1970's, support which the majority of Greeks have never forgiven, and which colors their view of the US and NATO?
#27
"As far as a civil war in Macedonia, it seems odd for you to be pinning that on NATO"
UCK rebels acted mostly out of NATO-controlled Kosovo. It seems implausible that there'd have been a civil war in FYRO Macedonia, had US not intervened in Kosovo. Or had it done the opposite - taken a clear stand against war crimes throughout the Yugoslavian states.
This inconsistency and arbitrariness, is what's at the root of all my objections to the Kosovo bombings - because IMO it's these things that did nothing but enlarge the circle of violence.
"it was Blair more than Clinton who pushed for intervention in Kosovo"
So, want me to blame the duo of Blair+Clinton for the arbitrariness+inconsistency, etc, rather than Clinton alone? Makes little difference to me.
"Macedonia was not a genocide, but a civil war"
Kosovo wasn't a genocide either. It was a series of war crimes commited by UCK against the Serbs, and a series of war crimes then committed by the Serbs against the Albanians. It later became ethnic cleansing. *After* the bombings began.
"The attacker is required to avoid targeting civilians - he is not required to use ground troops or in other respects to sacrifice his own troops to avoid collateral damage."
Within *reason* he's not required to. But in the Kosovo bombings we saw a method which was largely ineffective military for the given objectives *and* wasteful of civilian lives. You yourself admitted that the Serbs increased the rate of ethnic cleansing after the attacks began. I assume this includes rapes, murders, so on? Wouldn't it make sense to use the military tactics that'd lead to *stopping the ethnic cleansing* not after several months but immediately? Aka, put people on the ground? Aka save lives of Albanian *and* Serb civilians?
"and given that Greece won't even recognize THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA by its constitutional name."
I've not heard you (or the US government) recently call Taiwan with its constitutional name of REPUBLIC OF CHINA either, so cut the crap, won't you? Greece fully recognizes FYRO Macedonia's sovereignty and borders. We still have a problem with its name, but that has nothing to do with the matter we're otherwise discussing.
#28
blaming blair and clinton - well yes, id like you to blame them both for their inconsistency. Of course then you couldnt say the inconsistency resulted from the impeachment hearings. you'd have to look at the real reasons which i mentioned above (sympathy for Croatia due to the FRY attack on Croat sovereignty, distrust of Serbia due to Bosnia, and a heightened sensitivity to genocided due to the Rwanda disaster)
Ethnic cleansing began after - No, its been clearly proven that the ethnic cleansing was getting underway, and was too well organised to have been a sudden response to NATO bombing.
Would we have saved MORE lives if we had gone in on the ground - well yes we would have, for sure. But the US public was averse to humanitarian interventions after Somalia - Clinton went as far as he thought politically feasible. Again, there is nothing in international law that says that its unlawful to bomb from 50,000 feet. Despite the heights, the bombing was far more effective and resulted in less collateral damage than allied bombing in WW2, which is not considered a war crime. The difference is that the allies lost lots of air crews in WW2, and none during Kosovo. Theres a resentment, (which comes through in all your posts) that there was no US blood shed in Kosovo. A method of waging war which is lawful when the user incurs casualties, does not become unlawful when the user does not defend casualties.
Name - We dont use the constitutional name of the ROC, cause we dont recognize it, and its not a member of the UN (no fault of our own, that) Macedonia is a member of the UN, and is widely recognized - yet is denied its constitutional name, at the request of the Former Ottoman Province of Greece (FOPG). It strikes me as hypocritical for someone who has no trouble with this FOPG policy to be so solicitous of Macedonian sovereignty. Seems like its more the pecking order - Greeks are above orthodox slavs, and orthodox slavs are above muslims and catholics. And we wont discuss who muslims are above.
#29
Rafael> What would you do if you saw a doctor that treated only Palestinian terrorists but refused to treat Israeli patients? Wouldn't you call that inconsistency a sign of his motivation? Would he deserve the kudos normally given to any doctor aiming to save lives?
In Kosovo, I saw the US lending a hand of help to the UCK terrorists, which then proceeded to reach out of Kosovo and try to take a large bite out of FYRO Macedonia. If the US is just being a power for good in the region, wouldn't you expect it to object to *all* ethnic cleansing occuring there?
"what particularly interesting is that Ari holds the Croatia case up against the US, but not against Germany. And he holds up the Rwanda case against the US, but not against France. "
You are using vocative (or accusative) in my name, when you should be using nominative. "Aris" is the nominative form, "Ari", is the accusative/genitive/vocative.
No, I don't hold either Rwanda or Croatia against the US. I'm simply asking how can you justify intervening in Kosovo but not intervening there.
You see I think that it's motivation that defines the moral content of an act - and not just that but which also acts as a deterrent for similar later actions. It's about whether the US took a strategic constant stance against ethnic cleansing (something which would prevent such actions in the future), or just made a tactical alliance with a bunch of butchers against another bunch of butchers. Which led the former bunch to just proceed with their butchering in another place - where they wouldn't have had the power to intervene otherwise.
"What would have happened if NATO didn't intervene? "
My guess - same thing that would have happened in Croatia. Albanians would have been removed from Kosovo, same way the Serbs were removed from Croatia. Which is bad, yes. But we wouldn't have the thousands of dead Serb civilians in the bombings, and FYRO Macedonia wouldn't have suffered a civil war.
Now in the case of a *good* intervention, the first of these points would have been alleviated if US had placed ground troops and saved some lives, and the second of these if it had taken a consistent action against *all* war crimes in the region, not just Serb ones.
#30
Rafael> What would you do if you saw a doctor that treated only Palestinian terrorists but refused to treat Israeli patients? Wouldn't you call that inconsistency a sign of his motivation? Would he deserve the kudos normally given to any doctor aiming to save lives?
In Kosovo, I saw the US lending a hand of help to the UCK terrorists, which then proceeded to reach out of Kosovo and try to take a large bite out of FYRO Macedonia. If the US is just being a power for good in the region, wouldn't you expect it to object to *all* ethnic cleansing occuring there?
"what particularly interesting is that Ari holds the Croatia case up against the US, but not against Germany. And he holds up the Rwanda case against the US, but not against France. "
You are using vocative (or accusative) in my name, when you should be using nominative. "Aris" is the nominative form, "Ari", is the accusative/genitive/vocative.
No, I don't hold either Rwanda or Croatia against the US. I'm simply asking how can you justify intervening in Kosovo but not intervening there.
You see I think that it's motivation that defines the moral content of an act - and not just that but which also acts as a deterrent for similar later actions. It's about whether the US took a strategic constant stance against ethnic cleansing (something which would prevent such actions in the future), or just made a tactical alliance with a bunch of butchers against another bunch of butchers. Which led the former bunch to just proceed with their butchering in another place - where they wouldn't have had the power to intervene otherwise.
"What would have happened if NATO didn't intervene? "
My guess - same thing that would have happened in Croatia. Albanians would have been removed from Kosovo, same way the Serbs were removed from Croatia. Which is bad, yes. But we wouldn't have the thousands of dead Serb civilians in the bombings, and FYRO Macedonia wouldn't have suffered a civil war.
Now in the case of a *good* intervention, the first of these points would have been alleviated if US had placed ground troops and saved some lives, and the second of these if it had taken a consistent action against *all* war crimes in the region, not just Serb ones.
#31
Aris >> I have a simple question. Is there anything in the world that the US does that is good? Let's make it a top ten list. (if you can.)
I mean, let's just say we all woke up tomorrow and the US and all of it's citizens around the globe just disappeared. Who would be the new "kinder, gentler, nation"?
Hmmm...Russia? We see how they handle dissent/conflict in Grozny. Oops, I mean the rubble formerly known as Grozny.
How about China? I'm sure they would run things more to your liking perhaps. Brutal suppresion of religious and political freedom.
The Muslims (They're all brothers, right?) Better buy your carpet and compass or your casket before they all sell out soon.
France...OK, so that was put in for comic relief.
North Korea...he's kinda Napoleonic, right? (Or is that idiotic?) So food is hard to come by. I heard the North Koreans have a kick ass recipe for cold water soup. Mmmmmmm...cold water soup.
The collective European Union...OK, ok I'll stop with the comic relief already.
Seriously though, after your day or two of total jubilation, would the world really be a better place? Who would rise in our fall and make the world a better place?
Yeah, America does have dirt/blood on it's hands. You'll be hard pressed to name one country in history that doesn't. With the CIA and all of it's missions in the last half century I wouldn't try to deny that. Any American that says otherwise would be lying. The harsh reality of the matter is that tough men do bad things in the dark of night, just so my family and I can sleep safe and sound at night. You know something, I'll never hold it against them.
Posted by: Paul ||
07/29/2003 17:00 Comments ||
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#32
thousands of dead Serb civilians
Where are you getting these "thousands of dead Serb civilians"? What was the actual number?
Posted by: Rafael ||
07/29/2003 17:08 Comments ||
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#33
liberalhawk> On FYRO Macedonia - It's now become more of a matter of "national pride" (ugh) but remember that the situation first arose a time where every single Yugoslavian nation was engaged in territorial wars with its neighbours and other countries of the region (Albania) *also* seemed to have intents of possible expansion.
And then comes this new country, named after our large northern province. And some of its most loony extremists talking about how their country should be reaching all the way to the Aegeans, in a "reunification" of the entirety of "Macedonia" and the creation of a "Greater Macedonia".
Remember it was the time where both Greater Serbia and Greater Albania had armies trying to make them realities. Easy to make a population fear a Greater Macedonia.
So, paranoid politicians motivated for their own benefit find it an easy way to fuss about -- made all the easier because historically (if not politically) we were quite on the right - the Macedonians were indeed Greeks, spoke Greek, worshipped Greekly and so on. The cry is then easy to make that this new nation has no rights on "Macedonia". By which Macedonia we mean *our* Macedonia. But which evolved into the issue that we won't accept their having the name "Macedonia" either, as we consider it a lasting provocation and threat.
Yes, it was borne out of paranoia. But there you go. It was felt not to be in a wish to *violate* their sovereignty that we refused their "constitutional name" but in an effort to protect ours.
And your excuse about Taiwan, seems quite lame. I haven't heard the people here call Taiwan "Republic of China" either. So, see? Other people also refuse other countries their constitutional names.
#34
Who would rise in our fall and make the world a better place?
Zimbabwe.
Posted by: Rafael ||
07/29/2003 17:11 Comments ||
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#35
"It's about whether the US took a strategic constant stance against ethnic cleansing (something which would prevent such actions in the future), or just made a tactical alliance with a bunch of butchers against another bunch of butchers. "
Or its possible we did neither - we emerged from a world in which human rights was subordinated (necessarily) to cold war strategy. We tried intervention in Somalia, and got chased out with our tails between our legs. We saw a situation in former-Yugo, that was very complex, and where intervention looked hopeless. This included Serb/yugoslav attacks on Slovenia and Croatia. We saw a situation in Bosnia where there were war crimes on different sides, but the worst by far were Serbian. We then saw Croatia shift sides on Bosnia, making peace in Bosnia possible. We failed to intervene in Rwanda, due to the speed of the genocide and the post - somalia aversion to africa. In Kosovo we saw a a genocide developing over months, we say a UN commision tossed out of Kosovo, apparently as the first step in ethnic cleansing. We acted.
And we averted a genocide. and yes it cost serb civilian lives, but thats the responsibility of the genocidaires. Would there have not been a civil war in Macedonia? I dont know enough about the macedonia situation to say - but its also possible that Slobo would not have left power, or would have done some more nastiness before leaving power -and its certainly true that we wouldnt be able to offer the muslim world Kosovo as evidence of our help for the muslim world. So a utilitarian "what if" re kosovo is by no means clear, and cannot be the argument against the intervention. The argument must be based on the newly evolving international law wrt to genocide, and the evolution of that law is a good thing.
#38
during the middle ages macedonia was mainly slavic, as a result of slav invasions - indeed most of greece was, until a byzantine emperor repopulated the place with settlers from asia minor. as late as the 19thc cent parts of macedonia were principally slavic, while the capital, salonika, had a ladino speaking jewish majority. The slavs were tossed out during the population exchanges after the balkan wars. the jews (largely hellenized by then?) were murdered by hitler (no fault of the greeks) as for the ancient macedonians its quite unclear. certainly Alex and the macedonian upperclass that accompanied him were greek speaking. Its pretty clear from the greek historians that at the time of the persian wars most macedonians, like thracians, etc were "barbarians" ie not greek speakers. how thoroughly hellenized the common folks of macedonia were at the time of alex is a matter of dispute.
#39
"You see I think that it's motivation that defines the moral content of an act..."
Here's Aris's money quote. Who knows what motivates the US? Aris thinks he does, and everything the US does must in some way conform to his prejudice. You'll never be able to convince him he might be wrong. Is it really worth the effort, arguing with this infallible telepath?
"I have a simple question. Is there anything in the world that the US does that is good? Let's make it a top ten list. (if you can.) "
1. Within your borders your citizens enjoy a wide set of freedoms.
2. You have troops defending South Korea.
3. You are supporting Taiwan.
4. You are vaguely supporting democracy and human rights worldwide. EU does a more consistent job of it, as you people support a great number of dictators as well, but you're still doing more right than wrong here.
5. That's about it, nowadays. :-)
"Seriously though, after your day or two of total jubilation, would the world really be a better place?"
No. I've stated this already, that the collapse/destruction of the US would not be a good thing for the world.
Remember that it's *others* who claimed me an Anti-American. Not I.
liberalhawk> I had heard the figure be about 2000 but I admit that I've not checked that from primary sources. I'll look at the human rights watch site, which you mentioned.
#41
"What would have happened if NATO didn't intervene?
My guess - same thing that would have happened in Croatia. Albanians would have been removed from Kosovo, same way the Serbs were removed from Croatia. Which is bad, yes. But we wouldn't have the thousands of dead Serb civilians in the bombings, and FYRO Macedonia wouldn't have suffered a civil war. "
and in all likelihood the Krajina Serbs would not have returned to the Krajina, under the new Croatian Govt. So if youre really concerned about the Krajina Serbs, you should be glad of the NATO intervention in kosovo.
#42
I am really suprised at you all, chasing after Aris's red herring. Srebrenica is in Bosnia and the massacre occured a couple of years before Kosovo blew up and Serbia was bombed. Only a moron like Aris could argue that events that occurred after Srebrenica are somehow relevant.
If you want to find cause and effect, I suggest preventing more Srebrenicas was an important motivation for the NATO intervention in Kosovo.
Also, Aris would have considerably more credibility on the subject of ethnic cleansing, if he were not a citizen of a country that has so recently indulged in its own ethnic cleansing - http://www.macedoniainfo.com/macedonia/
Posted by: Phil B ||
07/29/2003 17:37 Comments ||
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#43
Aris: I believe that sometimes you mistake mere hysteresis for hypocrisy and evil intent. As Rafael, LH, and others above pointed out, the enormity of the evil in Yugoslavia and Rwanda simply took time for people to digest. Since organizations and nations are made up of lots of people, the lag between awareness and organizational/national cognition is even longer. Therefore, we screwed up in Croatia, did a little better in Bosnia, and a lot better in Kosovo. I believe that this is the simple truth rather than some American plot to victimize the Orthodox peoples.
#44
11A5S> I never thought that the Serbs' Orthodoxy has anything to do with it. Honestly I felt (and mostly still feel) it had more to do with it being a stunt to improve poll ratings. Serbia being chosen as a target, because it was a convenient one, having alienated every other country in the region because of its action in Bosnia, nobody weeping too much for its destruction.
But *shrug* I do honestly hope I am mistaken and that it was an honest attempt by your government to do some good and stop all ethnic cleansing. It'll be better for the world in the future if you are correct and I'm wrong.
Phil> I don't think that "90 years ago" can be called "recently". And what an unbiased source you have found there!
#45
Aris and I can agree on two things - that Bosnia and Kosovo were misbegotten foreign adventures, but for different reasons. Clinton undertook the Bosnia and Kosovo interventions for the same reason that he undertook other interventions - no definable US interests were involved. Clinton's policy was to screw our friends and assist our enemies. Milosevic was no enemy of the US. I fail to see why we bothered to send in the military to protect a bunch of Muslims. We got no credit for the interventions and spent billions carrying them out. Virtue may be its own reward, but spending billions of taxpayer dollars on ventures like this is just insane.
#46
"The only thing that I can say in defense of your statement is that if Europe failed to lift a finger to stop the genocide then certainly the US was not obliged to do anything either."
I'm not certain how moral obligations exist or don't exist depending on what other people or nations are doing. If you consider stopping a genocide a moral imperative, then how does that suddenly change by the fact of one or ten or a hundred nations that do *not* act on that moral imperative? Shouldn't you say instead "Well shame on *them*, but *we* are still morally obliged to act if we can?"
#48
You're pushing the envelope there Aris. I consider theft to be morally wrong, does that mean I should be walking the earth apprehending every thief?
Fact is, this happened on European ground and should have been dealt with by Europeans. Especially since Europe lauds itself as the moral mother superior of the western world.
Posted by: Rafael ||
07/29/2003 22:51 Comments ||
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#49
"I consider theft to be morally wrong, does that mean I should be walking the earth apprehending every thief? "
But that's not the question I asked is it now? I asked about moral imperatives and how do they somehow become less of moral imperatives when other people don't accept them? If you consider stopping thievery a moral imperative, then how does it become less of a moral imperative if *other* people don't act to stop it?
"Fact is, this happened on European ground and should have been dealt with by Europeans."
I'm not sure that this localism makes any sense. What is this "European ground"? It's a convention that we use to describe a arbitrary peninsula. It's certainly not some kind of political division.
Or do you mean that Europeans had more power to stop it than the Americans did? If so, that's a different matter altogether and has little to nothing to do with whether it was European or Asian or Martian ground.
Director Sidney Lumet is shooting a movie for HBO called "Strip Searchâ that will look into supposed abuses of civil rights since 9/11. (Such as ?????)
"Itâs inspired by real-life incidents, examples of a sort of McCarthyism that has existed since the attacks,â MSNBC quotes an "insider" as saying.
(When did the Senate EVER have a McCarthy Coommittee? Note: The HOUSE had a committee on UN-American Activity, but I donât think SENATOR McCarthy could serve on it. Liberals hate facts.)
"Itâs about people whoâve been punished for saying and thinking things in a country where thereâs supposed to be freedom of speech and thought. Thereâs no doubt that it will be controversial, given the level of emotions on this subject.â
(You mean stupid Hollywood types that now canât find a market for their âtalentâ)
Really? The primary places that Americans are punished for speaking and thinking are the leftist-dominated universities and failed government school monopolies and leftist-dominated Hollywood. Is that what the movie is about? (Wonder if they will show a conservative speaker on campus being shouted at by some commie wannbes?)
Apparently not. Lumet is a noted "liberal," and his stars include leftist actresses Glenn Close and Maggie Gyllenhaal, so count on yet another Bush-bashing fantasy from Tinseltownâs ignorami.
(Unless they have some hardcore scenes or they make up a lot of sh** this is a stinker. But we should thank this guy, because he will shine a light on the idiocy that is Hollywood.)
#3
Anybody think this film will show the bigotted,preferintial support for ISA,while denigning Jewish orginazations equal access to University campus'.
Army and police today gunned down nine militants including four of them in a single operation at Mahu, Banihal in which an army Major was also seriously injured. Of nine slain ultras, five were foreign mercenaries. An army jawan also lost his life in one of the operation. In another incident, the militants gunned down a young girl and critically wounded her mother at Faisalabad, Surankote in Poonch district.
Local, foreign militants clash on Kashmir issue in jail
About half a dozen detenues received injuries, one of them critically, when groups of detained Pakistani and local militants clashed in Kot Bhalwal jail late last night over âKashmir issueâ. Official sources told EXCELSIOR that both the groups entered into verbal dual over Kashmir issue. While Pakistani militants blamed locals for the present impasse, the local militants on the other hand castigated Pakistani mercenaries for bringing about mess and destruction in the State thereby giving a set-back to their cause of âliberating Kashmirâ.
It started with a discussion on Kashmir as one of the members from the Pakistani terrorists opined that Kashmir should be a part of Pakistan which was objected to by the local militants, who were of their opinion that it should remain an independent. In the heated up the exchange of words, the local militants said that it was due to foreign mercenaries that innocent people are being killed, women raped and houses burnt down. It was due to these follies that Kashmir cause received a set-back at the international level, were the views of the local militants. The heated up exchanges took an awkward turn when the two warring groups started beating each other. In the melee, they wounded each other and about half a dozen detenues from both the groups were injured, sources informed. On the receipt of information about the clash, senior officers of Prison Department rushed to the spot and got both the groups separated.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
07/29/2003 2:27:38 AM ||
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PESHAWAR: A second blast in North Waziristan Agency on Monday left two people dead and three injured. Sources said an accidental bomb explosion took place in the house of a local tribesman, killing an 18-year-old tribesman and a woman and injuring three men in the border Saidgai village, some 400 kilometres southwest of Peshawar. The cause of the blast was reported to be an old bomb lying in garbage in the house.
"Honey! Have you seen my bomb?"
"I threw it out, dear. Pop said he was gonna get you a new one for your birthday."
Meanwhile, authorities in Miranshah detained 22 tribesmen for a Sunday explosion that targeted Pakistan army officers in Miranshah city.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/29/2003 00:08 ||
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#1
"an old bomb lying in garbage in the house"
Yawn. Yeah, that happens in Pakistan. "Next!"
(Shift to PakiMode)
In other news, even more unfathomably insane shit happened in Pakistan. No one in Pakistan had any comment. Normalcy reigns and life is, uh, sweet.
(/PakiMode)
Fred - we've got to keep you out of the Paki newspapers. I'm worried about your mental state. Like a cop that's on the street too long, soon you'll begin to think of what happens in PakiWackiLand as normal. This is a bad thing, Fred. Trust me. Not good. My recommended therapy for re-introduction to sanity is extreme, but effective. Phase I: 2 weeks at Club Med Martinique or Hedonism II. Phase II: 2 weeks at DisneyWorld. Phase III: 2 weeks at The Smithsonian. ;->
#4
doug, you misread: it was in garbage IN the house. Now I may have been raised a little rustic, but in our family we put the garbage OUTSIDE the house to be taken away.
Guess they need warnings on the bombs "to be disposed of properly. Don't leave it in the stench-filled garbage-strewn living room"
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 10:14 Comments ||
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#5
Now now, Frank G, I think you're being a little unfair. I am sure that he had the bomb in the correct trash receptacle, properly separated from the burnable trash and the glass bottles, according to local Paki garbage disposal ordinances...
#6
Anon- you're right, it was unfair to assume it wasn't in a "explosives - please recycle" bin. I apologize to all the fragments of the unfortunate owner of the abode
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 10:54 Comments ||
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#7
Now, now. Let's not make cultural value judgements on our Pakistani cousins. I'm sure it's perfectly normal to have a bomb in the garbage inside your house over there. Who are we to judge?
MULTAN: A man was killed and five people injured, two critically, in an apparent suicide bombing on Khaki Shah Road in Jhang, 160 kilometres north of Multan, on Monday. âAn unidentified man was blown to pieces when a bomb strapped to the carrier on a bicycle exploded in front of a shop at 12.20pm on Monday,â Jhang District Police Officer Khadim Hussain Bhatti said. Kotwali Station House Officer Amer Mushtaq said shop owner Malik Jamaluddin was talking to two Pathans in his shop about them possibly renting the store next door when the bomb exploded. The two men ran away after the explosion, and police suspect they had something to do with the incident.
"That guy wants to charge us too much rent. Have somebody blow up in front of his store."
"Will that make him rent to us cheaper?"
"No. But I like explosions."
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/29/2003 00:08 ||
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#1
(PakiMode)
Officer Batti? On Khaki Shah Road? 2 Pathans? Ha!
(/PakiMode)
In a new audiotape attributed to Saddam Hussein and broadcast on Arab satellite station Al-Arabiya, the former leader acknowledged the death of his two sons last week. "Even if Saddam Hussein has 100 children other than Odai and Qusai, Saddam Hussein would offer them the same way," he said on the tape. OK
The two were killed in a gunfight with U.S. soldiers on July 22. Well, I guess that makes it official, theyâre really dead.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 12:46:05 PM ||
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It also confirms Saddam is alive, but possibly in such bad shape that a video would hurt morale. This ought to help the morale of the average Iraqi more than anything, to ahve Odai and Qusai's death confirmed.
#2
More words from Sammy's tape: The tape â the third attributed to Saddam this month â begins with a verse from the Quran. The speaker says Odai and Qusai, killed in a gunfight with U.S. forces in the northern Iraqi town of Mosul, would be martyrs in heaven.
"Even if Saddam Hussein has 100 children other than Odai and Qusai, Saddam Hussein would offer them the same way," "Thank God for what he destined for us, and honored us with their martyrdom for his sake," the speaker said in the broadcast, which was monitored in Cairo. The voice on the tape said it was recorded July 2003, but the exact date was not clear. The speaker called Odai and Qusai's deaths "good news, that is the hope of every fighter for God's sake, as another group of noble souls of the martyrs have ascended to their creator." The speaker also referred to Mustafa, Qusai's teenage son who also was killed in the six-hour gunfight.
"Odai, Qusai, and Mustafa died in Jihad field ... in a brave battle with the enemy.
"The aggression armies surrounding them with all kinds of weapons and ground troops were not able to conquer them until they used their warplanes on the house that they were in," the speaker said. The voice said Odai and Qusai died "for the sake of God, the nation, the people."
Another poor quality audio tape, Sammy hasn't released any video since the end of the war.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 13:38 Comments ||
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#3
Maybe we faked the tape, to confirm the fake bodies, to confirm the fake war, that we fought to find the fake WMDs.
And, all of this was to distract the public's attention from the faked Apollo landings on the fake moon.
Some people need more than proof. Thanks, Saddam, for doing your part, but the "Arab street" hasn't officially abandoned the notions that the 9/11 attacks were either committed by Bush, or the Jews.
You need a certified letter on a flaming sword held by an angel duct-taped to a Hellfire to sell facts to some people.
Posted by: Mark IV ||
07/29/2003 14:43 Comments ||
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#4
I'm not so sure Uday was his son. Doesn't much look like him. Uday looks a lot more like a certain European. It seems to me that said European was in Baghdad around the time of Uday's conception. It would certainly explain a lot.
#5
Mark IV, the certified letter on a flaming sword held by an angel duct-taped to a Hellfire wouldn't convince some people because my cousin's neighbor said that it was all a Zionist trick, the flaming sword and all.
Dishman, if you are going to post random stuff like that include a link to the 'certain European'. Otherwise its just meaningless drivel.
#6
Ok, here are the pictures: Uday 'Who's your daddy?
Sorry for the obscurism.
Best I can figure, Uday was conceived in '67, and I haven't found anything putting Chirac in Baghdad until '72.
Ilam, July 29, IRNA -- Iraq TV had a documentary on Monday night on notorious Nugrat us-Salman Prison in that countryâs Al-Muthanna Province, where the children of Iraqis of Iranian origin who were themselves forced to immigrate to Iran, were once kept for years. The provincial council of Al-Muthanna has decided to turn the prison into a museum, according to the Iraq TV report. Excellent! Can we get this documentary on U.S. television?
Located at Iraqâs border with Saudi Arabia, Nugrat us-Salman was once the horrendous house to innocent Iraqi youngsters of Iranian origin above 18, who had been detached from their parents that were deported to Iran by the criminal gang of the ousted Iraqi tyrant, Saddam Hussain. Humm, this doesnât sound like the childrens prison I was thinking of.
Iraq TV, monitored here at IRNA bureau in Iranâs Ilam Province added, "Dozens of the members of a French human rights organization called âFor the Sake of the Truthâ visited the Nugrat us-Salman Prison on Monday in an attempt to record the previous Iraqi regimeâs extent of the violations of human rights." I donât know anything about this French organization.
It added, "A number of Iraqi youths of Iranian origin, who had miraculously managed to escape the Nugrat us-Salman Prison in late years of the 1980s, told the French human rights delegation about the horrendous living conditions they had experienced there." The secretary-general of the French organization said while visiting the prison, "The position of Nugrat us-Salman at the heart of the barren Samava Desert in Iraqâs Al Muthanna Province proves that those who were transferred to this remote parts of Iraq, away from civilized life, were doomed to remain here for good." This horrendous prison, situated at the center of a desert with no trace of life, or the necessities of a civil life, was referred to as Iraqâs Hell in that country. Besides the Iraqi youth of Iranian origin, the ousted regime of Saddam Hussain also kept its political prisoners at Nugrat us-Salman Prison.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 12:31:44 PM ||
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EFL
American soldiers overpowered and arrested a bodyguard who rarely left Saddam Husseinâs side Tuesday and said they obtained documents and information that could help them close in on the former dictator. As "one of Saddamâs lifelong bodyguards," Adnan Abdullah Abid al-Musslit was believed to have detailed knowledge of the former presidentâs hiding places, said Lt. Col. Steve Russell, who led the raid. He said documents taken from the home and information obtained from the men would be useful in the hunt for Saddam. "Every guy we get tightens the noose," said Russell, commander of the 4th Infantry Divisionâs 22nd Infantry Regiment.
Actually, I think it's just the 1st Battalion, 22nd...
"Every photo and every document connects the dots." The stocky bodyguard struggled to break free as soldiers arrested him, and they had to wrestle him to the ground and drag him down the stairs, Russell said.
Thumpa-bumpa-bumpa-bumpa..."
"Were we surprised? Heâs a bodyguard. Thatâs why we went in with our steely knives and oily guns," Russell said. "If everything else had failed and we just got that one guy, we would be happy." "steely knives"? Somebody has been listening to Hotel California way too many times.
But the series of pre-dawn raids in the heart of the deposed dictatorâs hometown nabbed a total of 12 people, including Daher Ziana, the former head of security in Tikrit, and Rafa Idham Ibrahim al-Hassan, a leader of the Saddam Fedayeen militia. The raids began at 4 a.m. when soldiers fired three shotgun blasts into the locks of the house where bodyguard al-Musslit was living with his family. Moments later, an Associated Press reporter watched as soldiers pulled al-Musslit from the house, bleeding and barefoot. Soldiers stripped him to his underwear, searching for weapons, and dragged him into an Army Humvee. Gonna have to hose that sucker off.
A medic examined the right side of his forehead, where blood seeped through the wide tan cloth that was wrapped over his eyes as a blindfold. Hope itâs painful.
About a block away, soldiers stormed a house where Ziana was living, emerging from one the houseâs ornate arched entrances with four men with their hands tied behind their back. One of the men was identified as Ziana, Saddamâs security chief in Tikrit. Six women, some clutching the hands of small children, wailed as soldiers threw photographs and documents into the driveway. A large portrait of Saddam lay alongside a picture of Ziana in uniform. One album featured a photo of women posing with Kalashnikov rifles. Ummm, naked chicks with guns.
Among the documents was something called a "Saddam Privilege Card," Russell said. Stamped "expired".
Nearby, soldiers pulled al-Hassan from another house, Russell said. Al-Hassan was believed to be a Brigadier General and a leader of the Fedayeen militia, which is suspected in the mounting attacks on U.S. troops. The men were taken to an Army detention facility in Tikrit where they will be interrogated, Russell said.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 8:53:49 AM ||
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Sweeeeet. 4:00am raids in the ritzy part of town. Shooting off hinges. Steely knives and oily guns. Bodyguards who resist arrest. Fedayeen leaders. Wymyns wailing and moaning and clutching little jihadis. Bitches with guns. This story has got it all. Job Bob sez 5 Stars. Blood, bodyguard kung-fu, no heads roll, no breasts, just genuine kickass professionalism - if you exclude the AP dipshit, of course. Ha!
#2
Instapundit notes that the "steely knives and oily guns" comment probably indicates severe sarcasm to be used on a clueless reporter after one-too-many stupid questions. Nice to see the idiot didn't recognize it and wrote it in verbatim.
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 10:18 Comments ||
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#3
intersting WaPo article this morning on Falujah. 3rd ID is taking it easy on the locals, letting them do local guard duty and reducing US profile, refraining from searching women and clerics ("but if we get shot at by a woman or cleric all bets are off") and doing more gentle searches of houses ("but if we get shot at during a house search all bets are off") Also making formal apologies and playing blood money to families of collateral damage victims.
Seems to be working - falujah has quickly become much quieter and more cooperative. Could be model for elsewhere. Combined with vigorous searches for weapons and leaders, closing on Saddam, we may groping toward a winning strategy.
EFL
TIKRIT, Iraq -- U.S. soldiers yesterday discovered 40 anti-tank mines, dozens of mortar rounds and hundreds of kilograms of gunpowder buried in Saddam Husseinâs home town: enough for a month of attacks on U.S. troops. Whaddya know, in the Sunni Triangle - whoâda thunk it?
U.S. soldiers dug up the freshly buried weapons outside an abandoned building that once belonged to Saddamâs Fedayeen militia in Tikrit, Saddamâs home town and power base in which he still enjoys widespread support. That "widespread" support claim is a classic unsubstantiated AP Stylebook - Approved spin term. They teach this in J-School, widely-known as BS-School nowadays.
Maj. Bryan Luke, 37, of Mobile, Alabama, said the weaponry was enough for a month of guerrilla attacks and the discovery "saved a few lives out there." Ah, finally, the story quotes someone who actually can tell shit from shinloa - and was actually there.
"Forty mines could have caused a lot of problems for U.S. forces here in Tikrit," he said. From someone who knows...
North of Baghdad, guerrillas floated a bomb on a palm log down the Diala River, a Tigris tributary, and detonated it under an old bridge linking the northern cities of Baqouba and Tikrit, hotbeds of Saddam support in the Sunni Triangle. And? Does the AP describe the damage?
U.S. soldiers had built a pontoon bridge farther downstream and were renovating the old bridge, but after the explosion they closed both to the public. And we still donât know...
"Weâve been repairing it since the end of April, but now weâve got people trying to blow it up," said Lt.-Col. Bill Adamson, a 4th Infantry Division commander. "Because of this damage weâve got to shut it to all the civilian traffic."
...Ah, finally, someone who knows something. Catch that? The Green Machine will prolly use it, but no Sunni-Triangle civvies.
The bomb was the first known guerrilla attack on a bridge. Bridges are especially crucial in a country born around its two major rivers, the Tigris and the Euphrates. For a reporter, an AP reporter, no less, this is an astute observation! Therefore, it is highly likely he heard this from the soldiers and just chose not attribute it, as J-School used to teach in the OLD days.
Posted by: PD ||
07/29/2003 8:13:35 AM ||
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#1
ahah..so you pick and choose what to believe....when he say weapons cache found..you believe him..no doubt about it..when he says saddam is still liked in his HOMETOWN.....you dont believe him...so which is which..is the dude a liar or a truth reporter ? ...or he speaks the truth when his observation are inline with the RNC Rhetoric and lies when they dont...hu...wassup now ?
#2
don't you have some phones to answer? or 6-9 important computer programs on banking to run? Does your boss at the commerce bank know you smoke pot and brag about it on the net? troll
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 10:26 Comments ||
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"No need, this kind of troll is programmed for self-destruction. Just keep chanting, 'Bush won', 'Bush won', 'Bush won', over and over. Please remain at least 500 meters from the troll, to avoid being contaminated.
"Luke"
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
07/29/2003 13:17 Comments ||
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#5
Pfssst...
Pfssst....
Pfssst....
What the hell is that noi...oh it's you "Penis Pump(TM)" (aka Stevey Robinson)! He's back again?
I stand in awe. Your command of the English language is as effective as that of the French command at Dien bien Phu. (Yeah MC Chunky, you'll "pro bo lee" (Chunky speak) have to google it.)
Posted by: Paul ||
07/29/2003 16:28 Comments ||
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Iraqâs transitory 25-member Governing Council inched closer to naming its president and cabinet, members said Monday as the US-approved body concluded a crucial meeting. Shangul Shapuk, Turkmen representative on the body, said they expected to name the councilâs president Tuesday, but another council representative said the government was still trying to nail down internal procedures before making any major appointment. âWe expect the president will be named tomorrow,â said Shapuk.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/29/2003 00:08 ||
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#1
ahah so he dancing puppets want to choose which puppet amongst themselves is the real marionette...how about dare hold and election..scared that Sadr will win ahahah
Boy, you think you know people
A mob of some 100 Buddhists recently ransacked a church in Kok Pring during a Sunday mass, destroying the cross at the altar, breaking windows and throwing Bibles into puddles of water. Guess theyâre not all Dalai Lama-Richard Gere we-love-everything-and-everybody-even-worms-and-ants type folks.
According to the World Evangelical Alliance Religious Liberty Commission (WEARLC), several believers were injured during the July 13 incident. The vandals accused the church -- located near the border of Vietnam -- of having contempt for the Buddhist community. Police said the mob believed the churchâs presence was the cause of a three-year drought, the Associated Press reported. Contempt for the Buddhist community? Yeah, Christianityâs a big threat to Buddhism in Cambodia these days.
Some 86 percent of Cambodians are Buddhist and just 1 percent are Christian. Man, thatâs disappointing. Next thing you know, weâll be overrun by these hordes of wild-eyed marauding Unitarians, raping and pillaging. You watch.
Posted by: Christopher Johnson ||
07/29/2003 3:42:01 PM ||
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#1
You try living in a town called Kok Pring, and see if you don't get a little, er, testy.
#2
Whatever the Christians did, it must've been something huge to get Buddhists all riled up.
Posted by: Rafael ||
07/29/2003 17:15 Comments ||
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#3
"Police said the mob believed the churchâs presence was the cause of a three-year drought."
WTF??
"The vandals accused the church ... of having contempt for the Buddhist community."
They do now.
And so do I - for their actions, and for the drought lunacy. (NOT applied to all Buddists - just these nuts.)
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/29/2003 18:03 Comments ||
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#4
"A mob of some 100 Buddhists recently ransacked a church in Kok Pring during a Sunday mass, destroying the cross at the altar, breaking windows and throwing Bibles into puddles of water."
When I was in high school, I saw a movie with Christian Slater called "Pump Up the Volume" where he played an underground DJ. My favorite line was when he announced on air that he was sitting in his room "naked, wearing only a Kok Pring."
Posted by: Tibor ||
07/29/2003 18:25 Comments ||
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#5
Check the source, folks. This is the same story that was posted here about 2 weeks ago. It sources from a Christian proselytizing org that terms it "recently" - methinks it needs those donations and tithes... "Keep 'em coming, folks - we're in danger! There's so much work to be done!" Just keeping up the drumbeat.
C'mon. Fresh News. Fresh perspectives. Not lame self-serving rehashed hash that was dubious in the first place. Retire this dog, it don't hunt.
#6
It sources from a Christian proselytizing org that terms it "recently" - methinks it needs those donations and tithes... "Keep 'em coming, folks - we're in danger! There's so much work to be done!"
Actually, the persecution of Christians is not exactly a new phenomenon. They've been persecuted all over East Asia - the most notorious instance in the 20th Century was the massacre and mutilation of tens of thousands of Chinese Christians and dozens of foreign missionaries by Chinese pagans during the Boxer Rebellion. Non-Muslims, whether Hindus or Buddhists, also attack Christians - the difference is that they confine their attacks to local believers and foreign missionaries.
Fifteen more rebels of the Free Aceh Movement (GAM) have been killed during an army offensive against the guerrillas in Indonesia's Aceh province, the military said. The rebels were killed in seven different skirmishes in five districts across Aceh on Sunday, military spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Ahmad Yani Basuki said. Lt Basuki told AFP newsagency that the biggest clash occurred in the village of Alue Bayu in Bireuen district and claimed the lives of four rebels, including a local rebel chief. Rebels also shot dead one civilian in the Idi Cut area of East Aceh district and troops also discovered a corpse bearing gunshot wounds in the Gandapura area of Bireuen district, Lt Basuki said. Before the latest deaths, the military said that troops had killed 531 rebels and seized 255 weapons since the operation began, while more than 1,277 rebels had been captured or surrendered.
If true, that should put a dent in their available force...
Close to 40,000 soldiers and police are battling a GAM force the military estimated at about 5,000 when the operation began.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/29/2003 00:23 ||
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Indonesian prosecutors have asked the judges hearing the Bali bombing trial of key defendant, Imam Samudra, to sentence him to the firing squad.
Sounds fair to me, except that they can only shoot him once...
"Brutal" was how prosecutors described Imam Samudra, a man they today told the court was the field commander for the Bali operation, picking Bali as the target, raising the finances and recruiting other members of the plot. After reading from more than 300 pages of charges compiled during the trial, the prosecutor said Imam Samudra deserved to die for an act that caused massive casualties and terrified an entire population. As Imam Samudra left the court Australian man, Jan Laczynski waved an Australian flag and called on the suspect to apologise. Security guards told journalists that Imam Samudra responded "Australians are the terrorists".
Yasss... The world is crawling with marauding Australians, exploding without warning, causing deaths by the thousands. It's terrible. Terrible.
Imam Samudra will have the opportunity to present his defence in two weeks time.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/29/2003 00:21 ||
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death is too good for him, he will just be a martyr. He needs to suffer and be humiliated.
Lock him in a cage and test cosmetics and drugs on him for the next 20 years. Then he can be useful as well as suffering! Replace just one chimp with Imam and I'd be happy. Let the chimp roam free in the forest - it deserves to live free.
#2
Imam should burn. I picture a pit. In the center, he's tied to a post. The relatives of the victims (who chose to participate) toss in Flash-Bang grenades which have had the flash component (magnesium?) replaced with something like napalm jelly - until he's very fucking dead. Should take more than a few, should concuss his dumb ass to jelly, and burn like a mofo. Prolly pretty close to what his victims felt in a few microseconds, but we should stretch it out as Anon1 suggests. The idea of testing cosmetics on him strikes me truly cruel, but we gotta let it pass - she's got a right to be extra pissed with this shitbag.
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 10:42 Comments ||
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#4
There's an article in Al-Guardian about India and Bangladesh studying why tigers eat people. I have a suggestion. Instead of staking out goats to attract tigers, why not just stake out this dirtbag? Videotape it, and give copies to all the families of those killed in Bali. Sell copies to finance the collection of other such dirtbags for further study.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
07/29/2003 14:56 Comments ||
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#5
Imam Samudra will have the opportunity to present his defence in two weeks time.
Get ready for a romping good read of Qur'an verses, steady chants of "The Jews and the Zionist Infidel Americans are corrupting Muslims", and "Jihad, jihad, jihad".
As usual, the Imam will be written off as a whacko and we will be told how Islam means peace.
He'll get a pitifully inadequeate sentence (probably 20-life) and live out a nice, Muslim existence, espousing the Islamic life and the beauty of Jihad to his fellow, scum-sucking inmates.
Same old, same old.
#6
The Imam must have seen this survey and wanted to protect his women folk from those aussies: A worldwide study on sex has Australians crowing about their world championship in the libido division. In the Oceania region, dominated by Australia, nearly 60 percent of men and some 50 percent of women said they wanted more than one sexual partner in the next 30 years, roughly 10 percent higher than the global averages. The Australian, citing a historic global sex survey of 16,288 people in 52 countries on six continents, reported about 25 percent of Australian men hope to have sex with more than one partner in the next month.
Only 25 percent? Slackers.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 16:10 Comments ||
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#7
Steve, that's right. I am WAITING for the US Army base to be relocated here, it would save me from having crushes on loser hippies!
Myanmarâs foreign minister on Monday rebuffed growing pressure to free pro-democracy icon Aung San Suu Kyi quickly, insisting she would not be held indefinitely and indicating the military junta was working on her release.
"Yasss... These things take time, you know. There's paperwork involved, and lotsa people are on vacation this time of year..."
Visiting Jakarta to convey Myanmarâs views on Suu Kyi to the leaders of Indonesia, currently chairing the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN), minister Win Aung said conditions in Myanmar needed to âcoolâ down first before she could be freed.
"Cool down? For how long?"
"About 30 years should do it..."
He gave no timetable.
Probably just as well.
That response is unlikely to please Indonesia or other key members of ASEAN, which last month delivered an unprecedented rebuke to Myanmar over Suu Kyiâs detention. Myanmar is facing mounting international anger over the Nobel Peace Prize laureate, detained since a deadly May 30 clash between her supporters and a pro-government group. ASEAN is one of the few international groups to accept Myanmar as a member.
"Myanmar? Oooh! Ucky! Give 'em to ASEAN!"
âItâs not a delay... We are working for everything to become normal,â Win Aung told reporters after meeting Indonesian President Megawati Sukarnoputri. âMaybe the time will come after the cooling down.â
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/29/2003 00:08 ||
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Better clean your gun, capân, and keep it handy.
The Department of Homeland Security is warning that Islamic extremists might be plotting suicide airliner hijackings to be carried out before the end of the summer, with possible targets including sites in Britain, Italy, Australia or the eastern United States.
"As of mid-June, Islamic extremists may have been planning suicide hijackings to be executed by the end of Summer 2003," according to the document obtained Tuesday by CNN. "The plan may involve the use of five-man teams, each of which would attempt to seize control of a commercial aircraft either shortly after takeoff or shortly before landing at a chosen airport."
Homeland Security sources said the credibility of the information is still being evaluated. One government official termed it "dubious." Intelligence leading to the advisory was developed during the past several weeks ...
The Department of Homeland Security warning also says the hijackers might try to use everyday travel items, such as cameras, that have been modified into weapons. "The hijackers may try to calm passengers and make them believe they are on a hostage, not suicide, mission," it reads. Yeah. Fool me once...
By doing this, one official said, the hijackers might be hoping to reduce the likelihood that passengers would take pre-emptive action, as those aboard United Airlines Flight 93 did September 11, 2001, after which the plane went down in a field in Pennsylvania. "Letâs roll..."
Although the warning lays out specifics of the possible plot, it also says, "No equipment or operatives are known to have been deployed to conduct the operations." Homeland Security officials said there is no immediate plan to raise the nationâs threat level, but that the aviation sector has been encouraged to review security practices and implement new random measures.
Posted by: Rafael ||
07/29/2003 10:14:31 PM ||
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I'll say this again. If anybody on a plane doesn't attempt to beat these assholes to death with anything they can get their hands on, then they deserve to die.
And whatever happened to that big sky marshall program the Feds supposedly cranked up after 9/11?
WASHINGTON, June 27 â A federal air marshal was fired and faces a felony assault charge after a June 8 incident in which police say he pulled his service weapon on two civilians during a parking space dispute at JFK International Airport in New York. The incident comes amid reports that more than 100 marshals have either left their jobs or been pulled from flight status and placed on paid administrative leave due to problems with the background investigations needed for their top secret security clearances.
#3
I think that if another hijacking is attempted, it will follow the tactics that apparently some of the hijackers used on 9-11:
Hijacker: Open the cockpit door or I'll kill the stewardess.
Pilot: No
Voice of next stew: He just slit Connie's throat.
Hijacker: Open the cockpit door or I'll kill the next stewardess.
In other words maximum psychological intimidation will be inflicted on crew and passengers to attempt to shock them into inaction. Also, takeovers will be attempted at the end of the flight rather than the beginning in order to limit the amount of time that the passenger will have to respond. I wouldn't discount the possibility of restraints being used on the passengers either.
Fawzal Abdullah Mohammed, a senior activist in al-Qaida who is believed responsible for attacks against Israeli and American targets in Kenya and Tanzania recently arrived in east Africa and is plotting an attack with a light aircraft against an Israeli or American target, say Israeli security sources. He is on the FBIâs list of most wanted terrorists. He is said to be directly responsibility for the two attacks in Mombassa, Kenya last November â a booby trapped car blew up at the Paradise Hotel, killing three Israelis and 11 Kenyans and a shoulder-launched missile was fired at an Arkia plane. Fawzal Abudllah Mohammed is is also tied to the plots to blow up the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in August 1998, where some 250 people were killed. Fawzal is one of their most active and sucessful boys. He must be feeling his oats and planning another operation about now.
Kenyan authorities recently arrested five suspect Islamic activists but freed them after interrogation, and there is a direct link between the five and the al Qaida infrastructure in Kenya, say the sources. The five were questioned about al Qaida intentions regarding a double attack on the new American embassy in Nairobi, from land and from the air: the investigation led to suspicions that the plotters intended to have a kamikaze pilot crash a light aircraft at the embassy and at the same time to send in an explosives-laden truck. Among the arrested was a director of a mosque and an Islamic girlsâ school. Tap, tap, no suprise registers on the meter.
Al Qaidaâs infrastructure in Kenya clearly was not damaged after the attacks in Mombassa. Though two suicide bombers were killed at the Paradise Hotel, other al Qaida activists in Kenya, including Fawzal Mohammed, continued their plotting. Went off and found himself some more cannon fodder.
As far as al Qaida is concerned, there are preferred targets for attack â in Africa and in general â American and Israeli targets, and not only official institutions but tourist sites that are frequented by citizens of both countries and tend to be less strictly guarded. Either there will be an arrest soon or another hotel goes boom.
I'd guess it'll be a hotel or embassy going boom. The Kenyakops haven't been very impressive...
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 2:35:26 PM ||
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Kenya better be agressive and pop these guys or their economy goes in the tank and all their cities become Turban Town⢠with all the rights and privelages thereto.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/29/2003 16:34 Comments ||
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screw that Kenya is 90 percent cristian and has nothing to do with Al Qaeda..there r Alqaeda cells in every city from Beijing to Hawaii....
If itâs Tuesday, Chuck must be staying:
President Charles Taylor is reconsidering his pledge to cede power, seeing it as only encouraging rebel attacks, his spokesman said Tuesday. The president has been angered by the rebel capture of Buchanan, the nationâs second-largest city, on Monday. "We are of a different opinion now in the government about the validity of the overtures of the president to step down," spokesman Vaanii Paasawe said in Liberia, the capital.
Liberia's the capital? Of what?
The statement marked a change in tone by Taylor, who has repeatedly pledged to resign even though he then hedged or reneged outright on his promises. Most recently, he said he would step down once long-awaited peacekeepers arrive. Yeh, but you didnât believe him, did you?
A former warlord blamed for 14 years of near-constant conflict in Liberia, Taylor has said since early June he would yield power. He made his first offer to resign as rebels opened what have been two months of siegeâs on Monrovia, Liberiaâs capital. Rebels "read that as weakness," Paasawe said of Taylorâs promise to quit. "In fact, it has escalated the war." Letâs see if I have this. Chuck sez heâs gonna leave and the rebels attack. That means that if Chuck stays, he shows that he is a strong leader, and the rebels respect that and stop. Makes perfect sense.
Guess it hasn't occurred to him that they don't believe he's going to keep his word and step down, so they've just decided to go ahead and kill him.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 1:30:49 PM ||
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By its actions, the Bush Administration threatens to give a just war a bad name. But by their words, some in my party are sending out a message that they donât know a just war when they see it, and, more broadly, are not prepared to use our military strength to protect our security and the cause of freedom.
We have watched some opponents of the war seize upon this emerging scandal with a disquieting zeal, as though it offers proof that they were right all along.
The same is true of some who supported the war but now seem to have forgotten why. What made this war just was the clear evidence of 12 years of Saddam Husseinâs brutality — and that is not diminished by 16 misleading words in George Bushâs speech.
Damn but I like Joe. If it has to be a Democratic President I would not be uncomfortable with Lieberman at least on matters of foreign policy and national defense. Plus, gefilte fish could become a national rage.
Comments from Tom Bevans:
Call it Liebermanâs "Sister Fallujah" speech. Personally, I like this move on his part, though it may be political suicide in the nominating process. But to have any chance of winning at all, Lieberman simply has to stop the leftward march of Howard Dean and John Kerry. Instead of falling into line behind them and taking the pathetic "me-too" approach like Dick Gephardt last week in San Francisco, Lieberman stood up in the Senate and threw down the gauntlet. Good for him.
Lord knows Joe needed to do something, because despite his superior name recognition and the fact he continues to lead in the latest national polls, his campaign is slipping fast. He isnât raising enough money and recently shook up his finance team. Heâs losing ground in state polls. His Iowa state caucus director resigned on Friday.
If Lieberman isnât able stop the bleeding and turn this thing around in the next few months, weâre all going to wake up one morning early next year and his campaign is going to look just like my cable modem did yesterday: no lights, no sounds. Gone.
And then we will be left with Dean and the wannabes trying to outflank him on the left. The Democratic platform will be "Raise taxes, lower national defense."
#1
politically i dont think it matters that much. The economy is likely on the rebound next year, and history would indicate that incumbent presidents dont get beaten unless the economy is going downhill, especially during wartime. In some sense its almost better for the Dems long term prospects if Dean gets the nod - a landslide defeat for him would put the left away for a long time (while at the same time a dean nomination might do in the greens) though i can understand the concerns of Dem congressmen about coattails.
But I think it is good that Joe is laying this out as a policy position for him and others to build on the future.
#2
Joe will only have a future if he can face down Hitlery. If she gets the nod in 2008, be prepared for the nastiest political season on record, to include at least some violence. The Clinton plan is to do everything they can to destroy this nation, so they can turn over the pieces to the UN.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
07/29/2003 13:22 Comments ||
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"...16 misleading words in George Bushâs speech."
I have a moderate amount of respect for Lieberman, tempered by his flip-flop behavior as Gore's Vice Presidential candidate (at least he realizes we are in a war for the survival of our civilization, unlike the rest of his party), but I'd have a lot more respect for him if he didn't use the Dim-o-rats' "how can we screw over George Bush this week?" playbook.
The so-called "16 words" said that the British government had recently learned that Saddam was seeking uranium in Africa (not Niger, just Africa); the British government stands by that statement. SO WHAT IS MISLEADING ABOUT THE STATEMENT?
The misleading here is being done by the Dems - and they think we're so stupid nobody notices.
pfui.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/29/2003 13:36 Comments ||
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#4
Old Patriot: with the former Rapist-in-Chief as Secretary-General, of course...
#5
Joe has the distinct advantage of being the only Democratic contender not to have shot both of his own feet off in public. But can he carry the moonbat wing of the party, and does it matter if he can't?
Posted by: Matt ||
07/29/2003 14:09 Comments ||
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#6
I doubt that he has any chance at all, but the irony is lovely. Can't you just see the Arab goverments crapping in their pants at the thought of a Jewish President of the USA? All of their worst nightmares brought to life. They already believe Jews secretly rule the world from the shadows.. now a Jew takes a public seat of power? They'll freak!
Pity it will never likely happen.. I'd love to see the reaction of the Arab world. Or of the anti-Semites here in the USA. Hehehe...
Posted by: Ed Becerra ||
07/29/2003 14:33 Comments ||
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#7
Matt: Well, true, he's only shot one foot off. But it's a doozy.
You just forfeited your entire moral foundation for addressing the Bush = Hitler morons. Congratulations.
Posted by: Joe ||
07/29/2003 15:44 Comments ||
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CC - oh cmon, even lots of conservatives are saying that Dubya and company are dropping the ball on this - not necessarily in the SOTU, but in who theyre handling it now (we were right - no wait a minute, we were wrong, but its tenets fault - no wait we were wrong but its some NSC staffers fault, no wait a minute we right) . which IS distracting from a JUST war.
BTW - to Barbara - they said "the brits learned" which implied that the pres believed the brits were right. (if i say that North Korea has LEARNED the US is planning to attack them, it kinda implies I believe it too) Now Im quite sure that Dubya (or at least Rice) DID beleive the brits were right, and thought the CIA was wrong to doubt the Brits given the CIA's point of view on Iraq - but they cant exactly say in public that they trusted the Brits more than they trusted Langley, now can they? It would let the whole divided administration thing out of the bag, wouldnt it. And to the extent that this has brought the war into disrepute, its fair that the Admin take the blame, and NOT the JUST CASE for this war. Right now Joe is the ONLY pol i know of making this point, and its a point that needs to be made.
#13
"I'd love to see the reaction of the Arab world. Or of the anti-Semites here in the USA. Hehehe..."
well id rather not see it, which is one reason id be a little reluctant to vote for Joe, despite thinking him most qualified. Am i failing in my loyalty if i put my fear of anti-semitism above my country's need for the best possible leader? Im really not sure, help me here.
#14
on the mfume thing- he said thats a friendly little joke, he makes it about the heads of lots organizations he makes speeches in front of - guess in those other cases it was so implausible it was obviously a joke, in this case it was just plausible enough that SOME people could take it seriously.
Hillary herself said it in Germany a few weeks ago. Printed in Der Spiegel (about as reliable as the NYT, but still capable of printing the truth once in awhile).
U.S. Senator Hillary Clinton (D NY) has attacked U.S. President George W. Bush, and questioned U.S. intelligence effectiveness in an interview published in the online version of the German newsmagazine Der Spiegel.
...
Praising her husband's close relationship with European leaders during his period in office, Clinton declared that "for eight years we were on the right course to a globalized and integrated world - which is coming, one way or the other."
Seems like this backs up exactly what I said.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
07/29/2003 15:56 Comments ||
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well we are on the course to a globalized and integrated world, and Bush also supports that. And the euro leader her hubhy was closest too was the same one Bush is closest too, Tony Blair. IS she also implicitly attacking Bush for not being closer to Schroeder and Chirac -well yeah she is. Is that attack unreasonable, given the avowed aims of Chirac and Schroeder - well yeah it is unreasonable - ergo her attack is unfair - minus one for Hillary on foreign policy in my book. But does that make her "hitlery"? Wanting to destroy this nation? I mean that kind of logic on the left is rightly called idiotarianism.
#17
I for one, would love to see one of them there kikes in the WhiteHouse. It would bring a good old fashioned, big friggin smile to the face of this American. (even if I am predominately of German descent)
Posted by: Mike N. ||
07/29/2003 16:40 Comments ||
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Am I a bad person to get pleasure from the Dems feeding on each other? Screw I like it anyway!
"When a reporter asked a panel of [Democratic Leadership C]ouncil leaders whether Democratic woes were the result of Republican attacks or Democratic mistakes, [Indiana] Senator [Evan] Bayh responded with a two-word answer that silenced the room.
'Assisted suicide,' he said." - Centrist Democrats Warn Party Not to Present Itself as 'Far Left'
Posted by: Old Grouch ||
07/29/2003 19:57 Comments ||
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#20
CS? political schadenfreude is not a vice -IMHO it's a virtue heh heh
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 20:39 Comments ||
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Well even I have to admire the right wing Republicans always marching in lock step--or was that Goose Step? The Democrats can only pray to have such a united front--and they never will!
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
07/29/2003 20:51 Comments ||
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#22
I'm rather afraid that if elected President Lieberman would be pressured to throw Israel to the (muslim) wolves in an attempt to show he wasn't biased on Israel's side.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
07/29/2003 22:18 Comments ||
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EFL
The group of European tourists taken hostage in Algeria in March and February, including one Dutchman, are believed to have arrived in Mali where they are expected to be released. However a German woman died en route. The kidnappers are believed to have buried the mother of two in the desert and despite the fact the German Foreign Affairs Ministry in Berlin refused to confirm the death, it has also been reported that diplomats informed the family earlier in the day of the tragedy. The other surviving tourists include nine Germans and four Swiss nationals. They had been held in mountain hideouts and were often forced to move, but Algerian forces freed 17 other hostages in May, a German DPA news report said. The Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC) is believed to be responsible for the kidnappings. An Algerian newspaper reported on Monday that the tourists were reportedly making a 1,200km trip to Mali, which borders Algeria to the south, after a deal had been reached securing their release.
But Algerian Interior Minister Mohamed Yazid Zerhouni said the hostages on Monday were still on Algerian soil. Despite this, German security officials now believe the group has reached Mali. A German ARD news report said events are moving quickly and both sides are keen to end the stand-off as soon as possible. Algerian troops are believed to have offered the GSPC terrorists safe passage to Mali in exchange for the release of the hostages. Iâd be very suprised if some money hasnât changed hands.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 11:59:18 AM ||
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African Tourism Lesson #1: NEVER TAKE A VACATION IN AFRICA (THE ENTIRE CONTINENT) UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE KILLED, KIDNAPPED, ROBBED, or RAPED. Questions?
EFL - Read it all, weep for the guilty uh enemy combatants LACKAWANNA, N.Y. â Even now, after the arrests and the anger and the world media spotlight, the mystery for neighbors in this old steel town remains this: Why would six of their young men so readily agree to plead guilty to terror charges, accepting long prison terms far from home? "The knuckleheads betrayed our trust, and weâre disgusted with their attendance at the camps in Afghanistan,â Mohammed Albanna, 52, a leader in the Yemeni community here, said of the six men who have admitted to attending an al Qaeda training camp two years ago. âBut the punishment doesnât fit the crime, or the governmentâs rhetoric. Itâs ridiculous.â These idjits are trying to apply criminal, civil law to cases of war and terror attacks ON AMERICANS. Cry me a f&^king river
But defense attorneys say the answer is straightforward: The federal government implicitly threatened to toss the defendants into a secret military prison without trial, where they could languish indefinitely without access to courts or lawyers. That prospect terrified the men. They accepted prison terms of 6 1/2 to 9 years. âWe had to worry about the defendants being whisked out of the courtroom and declared enemy combatants if the case started going well for us,â said attorney Patrick J. Brown, who defended one of the accused. âSo we just ran up the white flag and folded. Most of us wish weâd never been associated with this case.â
"I weep for you, the Walrus said..."
The Lackawanna case illustrates how the post-Sept. 11, 2001, legal landscape tilts heavily toward the prosecution, government critics contend. Future defendants in terror cases could face the same choice: Plead guilty or face the possibility of indefinite imprisonment or even the death penalty. That troubles defense attorneys and some legal scholars, not least because prosecutors never offered evidence that the Lackawanna defendants intended to commit an act of terrorism.
Except for the one they whacked in Yemen. Or was he just sight-seeing with a friend?
âThe defendants believed that if they didnât plead guilty, theyâd end up in a black hole forever,â said Neal R. Sonnett, chairman of the American Bar Associationâs Task Force on Treatment of Enemy Combatants. âThereâs little difference between beating someone over the head and making a threat like that.â Why not do both? Why does the ABA have a task force on treatment of enemy combatants? Esprit Dâ Corps?
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 10:50:31 AM ||
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They accepted prison terms of 6 1/2 to 9 years.
With time off for good behavior, they'll be out in 4 years. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Whoâs bright idea was this?
The Pentagon is setting up a stock-market style system in which investors would bet on terror attacks, assassinations and other events in the Middle East. Defense officials hope to gain intelligence and useful predictions while investors who guessed right would win profits. Whoâs gonna run it? Vegas?
Two Democratic senators demanded Monday the project be stopped before investors begin registering this week. "The idea of a federal betting parlor on atrocities and terrorism is ridiculous and itâs grotesque," Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., said. A Dem whoâs right. Is that a first?
The Pentagon office overseeing the program, called the Policy Analysis Market, said it was part of a research effort "to investigate the broadest possible set of new ways to prevent terrorist attacks." It said there would be a re-evaluation before more money was committed. That might be a good move.
The market would work this way. Investors would buy and sell futures contracts â essentially a series of predictions about what they believe might happen in the Mideast. Holder of a futures contract that came true would collect the proceeds of investors who put money into the market but predicted wrong. Oh the Saudis will love this! Think of what theyâd be willing to bankroll if they got bets down on it!
A graphic on the marketâs Web page showed hypothetical futures contracts in which investors could trade on the likelihood that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat would be assassinated or Jordanian King Abdullah II would be overthrown. Although the Web site described the Policy Analysis Market as "a market in the future of the Middle East," the graphic also included the possibility of a North Korea missile attack. Think of the possibilities if some high roller puts down a billion dollars on something that they want to happen.
That graphic was apparently removed from the Web site hours after the news conference in which Wyden and fellow Democratic Sen. Byron Dorgan of North Dakota criticizing the market.Dorgan described it as useless, offensive and "unbelievably stupid." TWO dems that are right? Thatâs GOT to be a first.
"Can you imagine if another country set up a betting parlor so that people could go in ... and bet on the assassination of an American political figure, or the overthrow of this institution or that institution?" he said. Wasnât there a rumor that Binny pulled something like this with airline stocks before 9/11?
According to its Web site, the Policy Analysis Market would be a joint program of the Pentagonâs Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, known as DARPA, and two private companies: Net Exchange, a market technologies company, and the Economist Intelligence Unit, the business information arm of the publisher of The Economist magazine. Is this for real? Or is it like the Bambi hunts?
DARPA has received strong criticism from Congress for its Terrorism Information Awareness program, a computerized surveillance program that has raised privacy concerns. Wyden said the Policy Analysis Market is under retired Adm. John Poindexter, the head of the Terrorism Information Awareness program and, in the 1980s, a key figure in the Iran-Contra scandal. In its statement Monday, DARPA said that markets offer efficient, effective and timely methods for collecting "dispersed and even hidden information. Futures markets have proven themselves to be good at predicting such things as elections results; they are often better than expert opinions." Letâs see whoâs betting on what and when and how much. Itâs still pretty sick.
The description of the market on its Web site makes it appear similar to a computer-based commodities market. Contracts would be available based on economic health, civil stability, military disposition and U.S. economic and military involvement in Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Turkey. Contracts would also be available on "global economic and conflict indicators" and specific events, for example U.S. recognition of a Palestinian state. Place your bets! Israel nukes Teheran! Iran nukes Tel Aviv! Place your bets!
Traders who believe an event will occur can buy a futures contract. Those who believe the event is unlikely can try to sell a contract. The Web site does not address how much money investors would be likely to put into the market but says analysts would be motivated by the "prospect of profit and at pain of loss" to make accurate predictions. Registration would begin Friday with trading beginning Oct. 1. The market would initially be limited to 1,000 traders, increasing to at least 10,000 by Jan. 1. The Web site says government agencies will not be allowed to participate and will not have access to the identities or funds of traders. Talk about insider trading.
The market is a project of a DARPA division called FutureMAP, or "Futures Markets Applied to Prediction." FutureMAP is trying to develop programs that would allow the Defense Department to use market forces to predict future events, according to its Web site. Why donât they call it "Beyond Thunderdome"?
"The rapid reaction of markets to knowledge held by only a few participants may provide an early warning system to avoid surprise," it said. It said the markets must offer "compensation that is ethically and legally satisfactory to all sectors involved, while remaining attractive enough to ensure full and continuous participation of individual parties." Betting on Human Carnage. But ethically.
Dorgan and Wyden released a letter to Poindexter calling for an immediate end to the program. They noted a May 20 report to lawmakers that cited the possibility of using market forces to predict whether terrorists would attack Israel with biological weapons. Can I get 3-1? 4-1?
"Surely such a threat should be met with intelligence gathering of the highest quality â not by putting the question to individuals betting on an Internet Web site," they said.
Wyden said $600,000 has been spent on the program so far and the Pentagon plans to spend an additional $149,000 this year. The Pentagon has requested $3 million for the program for next year and $5 million for the following year. Coming up next:"John Poindexter: Disaster Bookie".
Wyden said the Senate version of next yearâs defense spending bill would cut off money for the program, but the House version would fund it. The two versions will have to be reconciled. This is about as bizzare as it gets.
Posted by: tu3031 ||
07/29/2003 10:46:50 AM ||
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It's actually not as bizarre as it sounds. Check out Instapundit for more info.
#2
it makes a lot of sense. Markets tend to distill all the information available to investors. Thus oil markets, for example, tend to reflect info on the mideast political situation faster than any other public source. Unfortunately its not easy to tease out the political side of the oil market from, say, forecasts on summer driving in the US. Markets work precisely because the people speculating have money at stake, and thus an incentive to gather the best info available. The idea would be that we would let investors make side bets, and DoD would monitor the market to look for rumours and such they wouldnt otherwise hear about.
The real problem is the possible incentive for "insider trading" - what if terrorists place bets to make money off events they control? Or worse, what if they attempt to manipulate the markets to give false signals? Or what if states, even "friendly" states, attempt to manipulate the market. (Crown prince abdullah: if we spread the rumour that the israelis are going to assasinate arafat, that would sure distract from us, wouldnt it. Sharon: we know the Saudis are manipulating the market, we have no choice but to respond in kind, etc, etc.)
So its a VERY interesting theoretical idea, but i dont know it would work in practice.
#5
I'm not surprised by you liberalhawk. I don't always agree with you but you are consistent and non-trollish.
The problem that I see with this futures market concept is that the entire purpose really is to predict terrorist activities and prevent them from happening. So if you prevent them, then how does everyone know that the market predicted this non-event?
Plus I agree that market manipulation will be a major problem.
An interesting intellectual exercise and maybe it will lead to something useful but I think $8 million over a few years is just a bit too much.
Posted by: Kelvin Zero ||
07/29/2003 11:47 Comments ||
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#6
I tend to agree with MJH and LH. The theory might be valid as a statistical model but what do you open yourself up for on that "insider trading" angle? That's why I consider it a bad idea. That said, I'll go long odds on Yasser taking a shower before '05.
I want a market that predicts the height of that friggin' pink paper in the stack of documents you see in every shot of Arafat at his desk.
Posted by: Carl in NH ||
07/29/2003 12:16 Comments ||
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Latest news indicates it's been pulled, due to all the attacks the Pentagon got over the idea. Al Guardian report.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
07/29/2003 13:25 Comments ||
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#9
Too weird. If Dimwit Johnny Jihad could go from Marin County to OBL's doorstep in a couple of years basically out of his parents' pocketbook, why the hell didn't CIA think about placing their own "American" looking agents in Afgh.? What about FBI's actions/deficiencies? Gumshoe work is how you get the goods on the bad folks.
Look, I like thinking out of the box, but, as others have said, theoretically-speaking, very fascinating, but practically? Please save the money and put it away in somebody's filing cabinet.
Posted by: Michael ||
07/29/2003 13:51 Comments ||
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#10
At least all of America's enemies would finally have an interest in learning how free markets work...
Posted by: jason ||
07/29/2003 15:54 Comments ||
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To be sung to the sound of the worldâs smallest violin.
For several years, Puerto Rican protesters demanded that the U.S. Navy leave the island of Vieques. Groups staged violent protests outside the main gate of "Camp Garcia," saying they were sick and tired of the live-fire bombing exercises.
[snipped, rerun from 7/27/03]
Posted by: Steve ||
07/29/2003 10:31:41 AM ||
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Didn't we see this yesterday? Or was it on another blog?
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/29/2003 10:43 Comments ||
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#6
Now, if we'd just turn them loose once and for all! Anyone know what we are getting out of this "special" relationship with Puerto Rico, except immigrants who have made parts of NYC uninhabitable?
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
07/29/2003 17:45 Comments ||
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#7
Not Mike Moore,
Just some home-grown terrorists, cf. the presidential assassination and coup attemps in 1951 and the shooting up of the House floor in 1954.
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
07/29/2003 20:54 Comments ||
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Israeli Arab politicians on Tuesday condemned the killing of an Israeli soldier in an Arab-majority area, a day after Israeli soldiers used tear gas and rubber bullets to drive back Palestinian protesters trying to cut through a security fence. drop the rubber bullets - use real ones. The Paleos do
The barrier is a major sticking point between Israelis and Palestinians. Israelis say they are constructing the fence to stop militants entering Israel to carry out attacks. Palestinians say it encroaches on Arab land and threatens the "road map" plan for Mideast peace.
In violence early Tuesday, Palestinians opened fire on an Israeli car near the Jewish settlement of Itzhar in the West Bank, slightly wounding an 11-year-old girl, the rescue service said. She was treated at a local clinic and then taken to a hospital. ah yes...the road map to peace
In Washington, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon prepared to meet President Bush to discuss how to move ahead with the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan.
About 200 people - 140 Palestinians and 60 foreign supporters - protested Monday at the security fence 10 miles west of the West Bank town of Jenin. 60 Foreign supporters? That would be mostly ISM? St. Pancakeâs friends?
Several tried to cut or push through the fence, and Israeli soldiers fired rubber bullets and tear gas at them, dispersing the crowd. One of the foreigners was wounded in the leg and was taken to a hospital. There were no arrests. shooting too low. With ISM you need a forehead shot
The Israeli newspaper Maariv reported on Monday that Israel would offer to freeze construction of a section of the fence that drives deep into the West Bank, but a government spokesman called the report "speculations." "The prime minister will explain to President Bush the need for the fence, which is only security-related and is not supposed to create a political border," Sharon aide Avi Pazner said. The barrier sweeps into Palestinian areas of the West Bank to encircle Jewish settlements, and Palestinians say the project amounts to a land-grab that cuts them off from agricultural fields, towns and jobs. Bush has suggested that the project hinders Mideast confidence-building. there is no confidence only hopeful skepticism
Also Monday, the body of soldier Oleg Shaichat, 20, who disappeared July 21, was found buried in northern Israel, said police spokesman Gil Kleiman. Hundreds of police, soldiers and volunteers had been searching for him. Police suspected that Shaichat had been abducted either by Palestinians or by Israeli Arabs. Security officials have warned they have intelligence warnings of militantsâ intentions to kidnap Israeli soldiers. Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said late Monday that Shaichat was "murdered in cold blood ... immediately after being kidnapped." Shaichatâs disappearance followed the kidnapping of an Israeli taxi driver by Palestinians on July 11. The cabbie was later freed by Israeli commandos, and officials said main Palestinian militant groups were not involved. Shaichat was last seen by a fellow hitchhiker traveling in a car near the biblical village of Cana in the Galilee, on his way to his home in a nearby Jewish suburb of Nazareth, Israelâs largest Arab city.
Israelâs Arab minority accounts for almost 20 percent of the population. Always tense, relations between Arab and Jewish communities deteriorated sharply after police killed 13 Israeli Arabs during demonstrations in October 2000, several days after the eruption of the latest round of Israeli-Palestinian violence. Israeli Arab lawmaker Abdel-Malik Dehamshe, who comes from the area where the soldierâs body was found, condemned the killing. He told the Maariv newspaper that Arab residents "are praying the murderers of Oleg Shaichat did not come from their village. I am certain that if, God forbid, it turns out otherwise, that we will all denounce the murderers." Another lawmaker, Mohammed Baraka, warned against attempts to "taint any community or impose collective blame."
The main Palestinian militant groups declared a cease-fire on June 29 after nearly three years of violence, but progress on the road map — which calls for an end to violence and the creation of a Palestinian state by 2005 — has been slowed by disagreement between Israel and the Palestinians over what should be the next step.
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 9:53:35 AM ||
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Palestinians say it encroaches on Arab land and threatens the "road map" plan for Mideast peace.
Translation: "The fence impedes our efforts to kill even more Jews."
#3
LGF has a pic of the ISM/Paleos trying to tear down a gate on the fence....asshats
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 20:42 Comments ||
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#4
STFU and send money America
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
07/29/2003 20:58 Comments ||
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#5
I bet the GDR had a great reason for their wall too
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
07/29/2003 21:00 Comments ||
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#6
Not Mike Moore: STFU and send money America
We're not going to cut off aid to Israel any more than we're going to terminate NATO or our Asian alliances. If Not Mike Moore wants to promote the cut-off of aid to Israel, he can always donate money to Palestinian causes - if they succeed in driving the Jews into the sea, Israel will cease to exist, and there won't be any need for American aid.
#7
Not Mike Moore: I bet the GDR had a great reason for their wall too
Actually, their reason was to prevent East Germans from fleeing to West Germany. Israelis are trying to prevent Palestinians from conducting bombing attacks against Israeli civilians. The Israelis are also trying to keep some of the West Bank territory they conquered from Jordan after all the Arab countries mobilized for their second war of annihilation against Israel in 1967.
As Rumsfeld noted earlier this year, Israel needs the land to avoid being overrun by a surprise Arab attack. Heck - even with all of the West Bank, Israel was almost annihilated during the Yom Kippur War in 1973. The more strategic depth Israel has, the less likely it is that we'll have to expend blood and treasure to defend them like we defended Europe, Korea and Vietnam during the previous century.
More comedy than anything. I couldnât find any reference to this in KCNA or ITAR-TASS.
NEWSRu.com reports that US President George W. Bush was charged with violation of 11 laws and agreements at a session of the so-called international tribunal for US crimes committed in Korea. The session was held in Pyongyang. The Central Telegraph Agency of Korea reported on July 25 that other top officials from the US Administration were on the tribunalâs symbolic dock together with Bush. Apparently, the NorKs are trying to set up the Hermit Kingdom version of the Russell Tribunal.
President George W. Bush is particularly blamed for violation of the US [sic] Charter and the Korean War Cease-fire agreement. The information reported by the news agency doesnât specify what sentence can be pronounced on the US president in connection with the charges, Russia-s news agency ITAR-TASS informs. Maybe Kimmie will send Bush to a Corrective Labor Camp for re-education!
The tribunal was created in Pyongyang in connection with the 50th anniversary of the Korean War cease-fire; it was set up by several international organizations sympathizing with North Korea and the Korean Committee for Solidarity with World Peoples operating in Pyongyang. The tribunal consists of 25 lawyers; Beth Lyons from the International Federation of Democratic Attorneys is the senior prosecutor of the tribunal. Beth Lyons is apparently so far left that she thinks Pacifica Radio is too reactionary.
Posted by: 11A5S ||
07/29/2003 12:15:08 AM ||
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The Belgians will outraged that they didn't get to convict him first. In the Hague, one can hear the rending of garments and gnashing of teeth.
I thought that the Norks were so atrocious that even the campus lefties would stay away from them - at least until there was a clear U.S. military build up. But apparently, even the Kims can find apologists in the West.
Posted by: Tokyo Taro ||
07/29/2003 1:55 Comments ||
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#4
How about Sean Penn? David Bonior? Most of the 'peace activists' who went there prior top the US invasion? They have all committed overt acts against the United States in time of war.
#5
Insane Leader is grasping at straws. Sounds like the little shit's just about screamed himself hoarse. This is the longest running tantrum I've ever seen - my daughter would give up in 10 or 15 minutes, at most. Credit where due. Anybody think to notify Guinness?
#8
Hey, don't give Beth too hard a time. She has not been run over by a bulldozer, she has not been a human shield, and she has not posed sitting on an AA battery (not referring to electrical energy source). Useful idiots are getting smarter. Not a quantum step, mind you, just a 0.1 or so, heh heh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/29/2003 13:50 Comments ||
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Who are these international organizations which have no sympathy for people eating bark and dead people?
Aiming to strengthen the Arab League, widely seen as ineffective after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, Egypt unveiled a package of reforms Monday, July 28, hoping to save the 58-year-old organization. Government daily Al-Ahram published the complete text of the Egyptian government's initiative, which seeks mainly to reform voting procedures, as well as set up a "security council" and an Arab court of justice.
All the things we like best about the UN. That'll certainly make it more effective. Ummm... That'll have to be a sharia court of justice, won't it? Yep. That'll work...
In its initiative, Cairo said that although the League charter required a unanimous vote, deemed "essential" when the organization was founded in 1945, today it was "an obstacle to taking vital decisions ... resulting in paralysis".
If everybody has a veto, then nobody's gonna make a decision. (Who're you calling indecisive?)
Instead, Egypt wants to see the 22-member Cairo-based organization adopt majority voting.
Except that it's un-Islamic. Better just to have a caliph, ain't it?
Cairo also wants an "Arab security council" or "decision-making forum" to be set up to deal with security and defense issues across the Arab world. In addition, Egypt is calling for the establishment of an Arab court of justice, tasked with ruling on regional conflicts, and an "Arab parliament" for political and financial oversight of the League. The Egyptian government wants a body tasked with resolving conflicts, to be set up immediately, as was agreed at a 1996 Arab summit and sanctioned by foreign ministers in 2000.
"Nope. Nope. Immediately, that's much too soon. We gotta talk about this, discuss it... A curse on your moustache!"
The document, however, does not specify what form such a body would take.
If it did that, the arguments could start immediately. This way, they have to wait until they convene.
Cairo also calls for greater inter-Arab economic cooperation and the appointment of a "secretary general" to supervise reforms.
That's another secretary general, other than Amr Moussa? Or is he fired?
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/29/2003 00:08 ||
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More meetings = more sweet tea. Nuff said? Heh, thought so.
Six rebels have surrendered in Chechnya over the past 24 hours, Colonel Ilya Shabalkin, spokesman for the regional headquarters of the counter-terrorism operation in the North Caucasus, told Interfax. They were members of rebel groups run by some of the most well-known field commanders, notorious for their severe methods of fighting. Shabalkin noted that investigators are still working with the former rebels, who have given a written pledge not to leave the republic pending an amnesty decision. He said they also revealed places where rebels hide their arms. Acting on their tip-off, sappers destroyed a cache containing four antitank shells, 24 mines, four home-made explosive devices filled with 15 kg of TNT, as well as satellite phones, near the village of Yalkhoy-Mokhk in Kurchaloi District. The official said the discovery also revealed a number of reports about perpetrated terrorist attacks and murders, as well as maps pointing to federal forces' positions. "A total of 200 rebels have already put down their weapons. And 103 of them have been amnestied," he added.
200 of a total strength estimated at 1200, counting the Arabs, but still carrying on recruiting...
More than 10 caches with arms and ammunition have been discovered and destroyed, and about 60 tonnes of oil products being smuggled from Chechnya have been confiscated over the past 24 hours. Several terrorist attacks have also been prevented over this period. For example, a landmine made from a 122-mm artillery shell was defused in Grozny's Leninsky District, which has already seen a number of terrorist attacks.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/29/2003 00:08 ||
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ARMED anti-riot police had to be called in yesterday to control angry crowds of people who besieged banks and building societies in Harare and Mutare demanding to be allowed to withdraw cash, which was not available virtually at all banks across the country.
Y'mean Bob's got it all now?
In other cities and towns across the country, Daily News reporters saw long and winding queues at banks and building societies, but there was no crowd trouble as a cash crunch gripping Zimbabwe for the last three months came to the boil this week. Both Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe (RBZ) acting governor Charles Chikaura and Bankersâ Association of Zimbabwe president Washington Matsaire could not be reached for comment on the cash crisis, which economists yesterday warned was set to worsen in the days ahead as more workers get paid. As early as 4 am yesterday long queues had formed at several banks in Harare. And by midday anti-riot police had to be summoned to control restive crowds threatening to break into the cash-starved banks and building societies to get money. At a Beverly Building Society branch along Robert Mugabe Road in the capital, baton-wielding anti-riot police could be seen battling to push an angry crowd that was threatening to break into the building society. At Avondale shopping centre in Harare, where several banks are clustered together, police had to fire tearâgas canisters to disperse people who were threatening to storm banks.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/29/2003 00:08 ||
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#1
anyone wanna buy a time-share in Harare?
Posted by: Rafael ||
07/29/2003 0:35 Comments ||
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#2
"The long and winding queue..."
(Sorry. Too much McCartney, methinks.)
Check Bob's matress. For that matter, I prescribe a thorough body-cavity search.
#3
I'm getting a picture... kinda hazy... no, wait - it's a snowstorm... and I see mountains... definitely not Africa... reminds me of the view from my favorite restaurant on the shores of Lake Geneva. I took the wife there on our 25th anniversay and we both loved it. The waitress was wearing this "peasant" girl outfit. You know, the one with the elastic bodice thing? I've always been turned on by those. Reminds me of Bubba Smith in the Miller Lite commercials when he rips the top off the can. Easy opening can... easy access blouse. Get it? Huh, do ya? Perfect.
#4
Prediction? Zim falls soon - the cops and army and thugs have to eat too, sounds like Bob's screwed the pooch so much there's no crumbs left in the cupboard. No cash for pay = no loyalty among thieves. My only deepest fondest wish is that Bob and Grace don't get out of the country alive
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/29/2003 9:10 Comments ||
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#5
PD old buddy, you need to come home on a vacation :-)
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/29/2003 15:45 Comments ||
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#6
Why don't we just go into Zib-bob-weee? Or don't we have permission from Jesse and Al� Or do we have to go into Liberia first as a prerequisite to Zim? Hey, we need some guidance here?
/sarcasm
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/29/2003 18:27 Comments ||
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What happens when they can't pay the riot police?
IRIN - Rebel forces fought their way into the Liberian port city of Buchanan on Monday as they continued to battle for control of the capital Monrovia, government defence sources said. The Movement for Democracy in Liberia (MODEL) rebel group, which controls eastern Liberia, had captured the port of Buchanan, 120 km southeast of Monrovia by Monday night and was fighting government troops for control of the city centre about five km away. The sources said Defence Minister Daniel Chea had gone personally to Buchanan to lead government efforts to stem the rebel advance into Liberiaâs second largest city and troop reinforcements were being rushed there by road from Monrovia.
Good move, Dan. Gets 'em out of Monrovia. And you, too...
Bus drivers meanwhile reported that thousands of civilians were fleeing west from Buchanan towards Harbel, a town near Robertsfield international airport which is the headquarters of the huge Firestone rubber plantation. In recent days its population has been swelled by thousands of civilians fleeing the crackle of machine gun fire and the thud of mortars elsewhere in the country.
Crackle... thud... crackle... thud... all day long, nothing but crackle... thud.
Heavy fighting continued in Monrovia on Monday for the 10th day running between government forces and a second rebel movement, Liberians United for Reconciliation and Democracy (LURD). LURD forces retreated from positions occupied over the weekend in the northern suburbs of Barnersville, Gardnersville and New Georgia, but retained control of Bushrod Island where Monroviaâs deep water port is situated. Government forces managed to cross two bridges over the Mesurado river linking Bushrod Island to the city centre, but failed to make much headway on the other side.
Now we can see-saw for awhile. What're Chuck's supply lines like? What're LURD's supply lines like?
US ambassador John Blaney appealed on Sunday for LURD to withdraw from the port and retreat to the Po river bridge on the northwestern outskirts of Monrovia and for MODEL to halt its assault on Buchanan so that a fresh ceasefire could take hold and international peacekeeping troops could move in.
Looks like they're going for the kill, John...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/29/2003 00:08 ||
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They took TWO bridges today? Were they key bridges?
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
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Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
