EFL
Burger Kingâs rollout of breadless Whoppers this week is a nod to the low-carb craze thatâs sweeping the nation â and the latest evidence that the burger wars are taking a turn for the healthy. Sory, not with the stuff they put in that burger.
But burger-lovers will have the last say, and experts say the bun shouldnât be written off from restaurantsâ regular fare, much less from its place in modern American food lore. Besides, he noted, a Whopper without a bun is almost an oxymoron. "The bun is almost the least of my worries," he chuckled. Severe non sequitur alert.
The Miami-based chain is selling them in plastic salad bowls, with knife and fork, after reporting an increasing number of such requests over the past year. Didnât anyone else grow up with the common pasttime of driving backward through the drive-through, and asking for a burger-- hold the bun? Itâll never be the same...
Posted by: therien ||
01/15/2004 4:06:23 AM ||
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#1
For heaven's sake, why don't they just make thinner buns?
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
01/15/2004 12:14 Comments ||
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#3
Bet BK is saving $ not buying buns.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
01/15/2004 12:15 Comments ||
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#4
Bet BK is saving $ not buying buns.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
01/15/2004 12:15 Comments ||
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#5
Even if you say it three times, it doesn't make it right.
They might START saving money in the future, but I suspect they had no way of tracking "burger w/bun" seperately from "burger w/o bun" before this. Now they do, and can start shifting their purchasing predictions accordingly.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 12:35 Comments ||
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#6
Actually they order the same number of buns and are selling them with extra mayo after mid-nite to Atkins escapees.
#8
For awhile there, McDonald's was selling boneless rib sandwiches.
How the hell do you make a boneless rib?
Posted by: Fred ||
01/15/2004 14:00 Comments ||
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#9
Don't you remember Cousin Boneless from "Cow and Chicken"? Same thing, but with pigs.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 14:17 Comments ||
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#10
I bet none of you are on the Atkins or South Beach diets.
This is a bit of a blessing for folks who have been on Atkins and bascially order a whopper, and trhow away all the stuff but the burger and a bit of the lettuce. Now they get just what they need.
Its just catering to a market demand. Wonderful thing, the free market economy.
FYI, my brother lost 80 pounds on Atkins last year, and has yet to gain any of it back. Eating steak, burgers, etc to his hearts content (and green veggies too), plus regular exercise as put forth in the diet books - and drinking a lot of water. Bad cholesterol, liver enzymes and blood pressure are down, good cholesterol is up, and his type 2 diabetes is flat out gone. He hasn't been that healthy in over a decade I bet.
So, don't knock it. Especially those of you not yet into your 40's.
"Bunless Whopper -- that's what they called me in prison."
Posted by: Tibor ||
01/15/2004 18:39 Comments ||
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#13
The buns on the ol burger is the death. I'll buy my multiple burgers, sparingly these days, no really, and stack all the beef on one bun. Scrap off the mud and chow down.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
01/15/2004 12:14 Comments ||
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#16
Bet BK is saving $ not buying buns.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
01/15/2004 12:15 Comments ||
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#17
Bet BK is saving $ not buying buns.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
01/15/2004 12:15 Comments ||
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#18
Even if you say it three times, it doesn't make it right.
They might START saving money in the future, but I suspect they had no way of tracking "burger w/bun" seperately from "burger w/o bun" before this. Now they do, and can start shifting their purchasing predictions accordingly.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 12:35 Comments ||
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#19
Actually they order the same number of buns and are selling them with extra mayo after mid-nite to Atkins escapees.
#21
For awhile there, McDonald's was selling boneless rib sandwiches.
How the hell do you make a boneless rib?
Posted by: Fred ||
01/15/2004 14:00 Comments ||
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#22
Don't you remember Cousin Boneless from "Cow and Chicken"? Same thing, but with pigs.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 14:17 Comments ||
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#23
I bet none of you are on the Atkins or South Beach diets.
This is a bit of a blessing for folks who have been on Atkins and bascially order a whopper, and trhow away all the stuff but the burger and a bit of the lettuce. Now they get just what they need.
Its just catering to a market demand. Wonderful thing, the free market economy.
FYI, my brother lost 80 pounds on Atkins last year, and has yet to gain any of it back. Eating steak, burgers, etc to his hearts content (and green veggies too), plus regular exercise as put forth in the diet books - and drinking a lot of water. Bad cholesterol, liver enzymes and blood pressure are down, good cholesterol is up, and his type 2 diabetes is flat out gone. He hasn't been that healthy in over a decade I bet.
So, don't knock it. Especially those of you not yet into your 40's.
"Bunless Whopper -- that's what they called me in prison."
Posted by: Tibor ||
01/15/2004 18:39 Comments ||
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#26
The buns on the ol burger is the death. I'll buy my multiple burgers, sparingly these days, no really, and stack all the beef on one bun. Scrap off the mud and chow down.
Minas Tirith -- The Lord of the Nazgûl was reported âslainâ Thursday March 15 at the Pelennor Fields just outside Minas Tirith. Witnesses say that Lady Ãowyn of the Rohirrim âthreatenedâ the chief of Sauronâs Nine Ringwraiths and âchallengedâ him. They say he âtoldâ her that no living man may âhinderâ him, at which point she ârevealedâ she was a woman. It is reported that she âslewâ his mount and they âfoughtâ until a Halfling, Meriadoc Brandybuck, âstruckâ at the Witch-Kingâs knee whereupon he âcollapsedâ and Ãowyn âslewâ him. Ãowyn and Brandybuck were unavailable for comment; both are reported to be âbadly wounded.â
#4
I suppose Barad Dur is just a li'l old cultural monument, too.
Posted by: Mike ||
01/15/2004 8:39 Comments ||
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#5
just to point out anon, this is a war against SAURON, not against the ORCS. (Seriously, in LOTR it says that after the victory King Aragon sets aside part of Mordor for the Orcs and Trolls to live in - Tolkien werent no pacifist, but he werent no genocidaire either)
#13
Actually Aragorn set aside part of Mordor (the only fertile part, the areas around lake Nurnen) for the "slaves of Mordor".
***
And the King pardoned the Easterlings that had given themselves up, sent them away free, and he made peace with the peoples of Harad; and the slaves of Mordor he released and gave to them all the lands about Lake Nurnen to be their own.
***
When reading this, I felt it to mean the human slaves of Mordor, though it is perhaps slightly ambiguous.
The matter of Orcs is a complicated one, which Tolkien himself philosophically (and theologically) strove with near the end of his life -- and probably too long and (even more) off-topic to discuss here.
#14
Kinda like the Jihadis and Paleo bombers. They have been programmed to kill and destroy. Reprogramming them will require all the kings horses and men, so to speak. Heh heh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
01/15/2004 18:28 Comments ||
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#15
Aris, remember that Gandalf pitied even his slaves. And Orcs were 'bred' in the 1st age by Morgoth / Melkor by tormenting, twisting, and torturing elves.
#19
I suppose Barad Dur is just a li'l old cultural monument, too.
Posted by: Mike ||
01/15/2004 8:39 Comments ||
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#20
just to point out anon, this is a war against SAURON, not against the ORCS. (Seriously, in LOTR it says that after the victory King Aragon sets aside part of Mordor for the Orcs and Trolls to live in - Tolkien werent no pacifist, but he werent no genocidaire either)
#28
Actually Aragorn set aside part of Mordor (the only fertile part, the areas around lake Nurnen) for the "slaves of Mordor".
***
And the King pardoned the Easterlings that had given themselves up, sent them away free, and he made peace with the peoples of Harad; and the slaves of Mordor he released and gave to them all the lands about Lake Nurnen to be their own.
***
When reading this, I felt it to mean the human slaves of Mordor, though it is perhaps slightly ambiguous.
The matter of Orcs is a complicated one, which Tolkien himself philosophically (and theologically) strove with near the end of his life -- and probably too long and (even more) off-topic to discuss here.
#29
Kinda like the Jihadis and Paleo bombers. They have been programmed to kill and destroy. Reprogramming them will require all the kings horses and men, so to speak. Heh heh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
01/15/2004 18:28 Comments ||
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#30
Aris, remember that Gandalf pitied even his slaves. And Orcs were 'bred' in the 1st age by Morgoth / Melkor by tormenting, twisting, and torturing elves.
Saudi authorities have discovered a number of camps outside Saudi cities used for training militants to carry out terror operations, an Interior Ministry official said Thursday.
"D'oh! How'd we miss them all this time?"
Two key militant figures killed in terror sweeps last year â Turki Nasser al-Dandani and Yosif Salih Fahd Alayyeri â commanded the camps, the official told The Associated Press. More camp leaders are being sought. The desert camps were set up to train militants to use weapons and self-defense techniques and also prepare them for terror operations, the official said. He did not specify the number of camps that were discovered. "I can say no more"
The latest find is part of a widespread crackdown the Saudi government launched on Islamic militants and al-Qaida cells following the May suicide bombings. Hundreds of suspects have been arrested, and the government has urged wanted persons to surrender. On Nov. 8, another suicide attack on a Riyadh housing compound killed 17 people. Saudi officials have said their country may have been infiltrated by members of al-Qaida. Well, thats one word for it.
Late Wednesday, Crown Prince Abdullah reiterated the kingdomâs opposition to extremism, saying "moderation is the right path."
It depends on your definition of 'moderation,' of course...
In a televised speech to the nation, Abdullah called on Saudis to follow the "wise, moderate Islamic line," the official Saudi Press Agency reported. "Itâs the method of the holy Quran and the Prophet," Abdullah said, according to the agency. "Kill jews and other infidels somewhere else."
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 9:20:56 AM ||
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Saudi authorities have discovered a number of camps outside Saudi cities used for training militants to carry out terror operations, an Interior Ministry official said Thursday.
Maybe if they concentrated more on regular policework instead of policework of the religious kind.....
#4
I wonder if these were the same "terrorist training camps" we kept an eye on as far back as the early 1980's... They were also used to train PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, and other "friendlies" - friendlies to Saudi Arabia, and hostile to Israel (and the United States by association), that is.
There were probable training camps in more than 20 countries in the Mideast and Africa, including Syria, Lebanon, (formerly in Iraq), Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Pakistan, (formerly in Afghanistan), Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Libya, and Algeria. I'm sure there are similar training sites in Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, and the Philippines.
The Algerian sites were mostly along the southern border with Morocco, and led to the creation of the Berm - a dirt wall over a hundred miles long that helped put a stop to Algerian terror attacks in what used to be Spanish Morocco. Some were literally "camps" - no permanent structures. Others had permanent buildings, special training sites that included target buildings, training grounds, firing ranges, even aircraft fuselages. Some were run by the local governments, others were run "with the blessing" of locals. At one time in the early 1980's, there were more than 300 such camps. Many were used to train "freedom fighters" to be sent to Afghanistan to fight the invading Soviet army. "Stern", the German magazine, had a large article on these camps back in the mid-1980's that included photographs of groups going through the training. The whole Middle East should be declared a toxic waste site, and cleaned up by the members of the civilized world.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 11:18 Comments ||
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#5
I am shocked, shocked, I tell you, to learn that terrorism is going on in these premises.
#6
Saudi authorities have discovered a number of camps outside Saudi cities used for training militants to carry out terror operations, an Interior Ministry official said Thursday.
Maybe if they concentrated more on regular policework instead of policework of the religious kind.....
#9
I wonder if these were the same "terrorist training camps" we kept an eye on as far back as the early 1980's... They were also used to train PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, and other "friendlies" - friendlies to Saudi Arabia, and hostile to Israel (and the United States by association), that is.
There were probable training camps in more than 20 countries in the Mideast and Africa, including Syria, Lebanon, (formerly in Iraq), Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Pakistan, (formerly in Afghanistan), Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Libya, and Algeria. I'm sure there are similar training sites in Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, and the Philippines.
The Algerian sites were mostly along the southern border with Morocco, and led to the creation of the Berm - a dirt wall over a hundred miles long that helped put a stop to Algerian terror attacks in what used to be Spanish Morocco. Some were literally "camps" - no permanent structures. Others had permanent buildings, special training sites that included target buildings, training grounds, firing ranges, even aircraft fuselages. Some were run by the local governments, others were run "with the blessing" of locals. At one time in the early 1980's, there were more than 300 such camps. Many were used to train "freedom fighters" to be sent to Afghanistan to fight the invading Soviet army. "Stern", the German magazine, had a large article on these camps back in the mid-1980's that included photographs of groups going through the training. The whole Middle East should be declared a toxic waste site, and cleaned up by the members of the civilized world.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 11:18 Comments ||
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#10
I am shocked, shocked, I tell you, to learn that terrorism is going on in these premises.
Tip oâ the hat to Steve Den Beste.
Lawrence Wright has a great article in last weekâs New Yorker about going to Saudi-controlled Arabia. Long article so just the first paragraph here. But it corroborates what .com and others have been saying for a long time: SA is truly whacked in some serious ways.
"This is a newspaper?â I asked the cabdriver in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, as he pulled up in front of the lavish new headquarters of Okaz, the most popular paper in the kingdom. I had expected the usual dingy firetrap that characterizes newspaper offices all over the world, but this building loomed over the humble neighborhood like a royal palace. Workmen were still laying marble tiles on the steps as I entered a towering atrium. Envious reporters for other newspapers call Okazâs new headquarters the Taj Mahal. Saudi men whom I took to be reporters solemnly passed by, wearing crisp white robes and red checked head scarves. I felt out of place and underdressed. Much, much more at the link.
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/15/2004 12:12:15 AM ||
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I should have added that Den Beste has a commentary about Wright's piece at the link above. He makes some excellent points on top of Wright's work.
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/15/2004 0:13 Comments ||
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I got about a third of the way through Lawrence's article, then saved the link for later. Gawd, what a horrible place... the world's largest maximum-security prison.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
01/15/2004 5:38 Comments ||
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#4
I should have added that Den Beste has a commentary about Wright's piece at the link above. He makes some excellent points on top of Wright's work.
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/15/2004 0:13 Comments ||
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#6
I got about a third of the way through Lawrence's article, then saved the link for later. Gawd, what a horrible place... the world's largest maximum-security prison.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
01/15/2004 5:38 Comments ||
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Saudi Arabia has revealed the enormous scale of the threat to the kingdom by putting on show an arsenal of weapons and 24 tons of explosives seized in a major crackdown on Islamist hard-liners. The authorities again vowed Tuesday to wipe out âall the terrorist cellsâ as state television replayed astonishing footage of enough military materiel to equip a small army.
Have they cut anybody's head off yet?... Didn't think so.
At the same time, confessions by seven Saudi âmembers of terror cellsâ said to be involved in suicide bombings that left 52 dead last year were also aired. An Interior Ministry statement said that some 300 explosives belts as worn by suicide bombers and nearly 24 tons of explosive materials had been uncovered as part of the âwar on terrorâ over the previous six months. The statement also said that security forces had seized 1,020 weapons such as Kalashnikov assault rifles and other arms, more than 352,300 rounds of ammunition and 674 detonators âfor use in 350 bombings.â Communications equipment, timers and equipment to set up truck bombs were also seized. Television pictures showed the arsenal laid out on the floor. Security forces also seized more than 300 rocket-propelled grenades and launchers and more than 430 hand grenades, some locally made and others produced abroad.
"You ain't a man without a gun in your hand!"
The ministry statement said security forces had detained âa large numberâ of people used as âterror tools,â without giving specific numbers, as well as other suspects. âWe are determined to go on hunting for criminals and wiping out all the terrorist cells,â said the statement carried by the official Saudi Press Agency. âThe ministry will show no leniency to those who sponsor these criminals, support them or finance them,â it warned.
We're still waiting for the heads to roll. We're still waiting to see the holy men in the dock...
The ministry picked up on previous official declarations that terrorists following a âdeviantâ Islamic ideology claiming to be inspired by Wahhabi Islam, the strict Muslim doctrine implemented in Saudi Arabia, are seeking to overthrow the house of Saud. âAll the terrorist aggressions committed in the kingdom have been perpetrated by people carrying deviant ideas which they seek to impose through terror,â the statement said. It also carried ârecorded remarksâ of the âmembers of terror cellsâ about their activities.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
01/15/2004 23:09 ||
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#1
Or maybe they're just trying to make Saudi Arabia safer for the Bush Family's oil connections
Posted by: NotMike Moore ||
01/15/2004 0:37 Comments ||
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NMM, tell you what. You talk to the detainee's in person and tell them you're sorry about Bush's 'War for Oil'. If they don't spit or maul you when you enter without any guards I'll apoligize.
Posted by: Charles ||
01/15/2004 2:54 Comments ||
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#4
Strange,NMM.I hadn't heard that Bush declared war on Saudi and siezed the oil fields.
#11
NMM, tell you what. You talk to the detainee's in person and tell them you're sorry about Bush's 'War for Oil'. If they don't spit or maul you when you enter without any guards I'll apoligize.
Posted by: Charles ||
01/15/2004 2:54 Comments ||
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#12
Strange,NMM.I hadn't heard that Bush declared war on Saudi and siezed the oil fields.
THE Federal Government knew Australians were training in Afghanistan terror camps for ten years before the 2001 attacks on the US, a Muslim cleric has claimed.
"Yeah, sure. Knew it all along..."
Melbourne Islamic leader Sheikh Mohammed Omran told the Herald Sun he was repeatedly visited by federal agents who asked him to discourage members of his group from attending the camps.
But did you listen? NO! You DIDN'T LISTEN!
Up to 12 Australians, including three Victorians, attended the camps, which included training with AK-47 rifles, marching and endurance drills. Sheikh Mohammed said the camps were regarded as "normal" and "good" for teaching Muslim youth discipline.
Sure. I used to send my kids to camp so they could learn to fire AKs and march and do endurance drills. Doesn't everybody?
But federal agents "didnât like it and they used to tell me they didnât like it", he said. Despite their concern, the trips continued.
"Being a holy man and all, I lifted one cheek and farted them off. Who the hell were they to tell me what to do?"
"The Australian Government allowed it," Sheikh Mohammed said. "It was something the Australian Government condoned by inaction."
I thought you just said they told you not to? And you ignored them? But because it was a free society, and you have the right to do that, you just went ahead with it. But then the world changed when the civilized world noticed that the Islamic world had declared war on them, so now you're bitching.
He said the Government now treated those who attended the camps as potential terrorists. "Post-September 11 the Australian Government changed policy when the war on terror was born . . . (they) suddenly said these camps are terrorist training," he said.
That's true. It's also what I just said. Tough, ain't it?
A security source familiar with the case said the camps were considered dangerous. But the source said there was a belief within federal agencies before 2001 that the Foreign Incursions and Recruitment Act, the only law then in place to prosecute such cases, was essentially weak. "It was extremely difficult to get the evidence to prosecute under the Foreign Incursions Act," the source said. "The prevailing view (by those attending the camps) was the legislation was weak and could be avoided, but they were covert about doing it so we understood they knew it was wrong."
"But since we're a free society and they're intent on subverting us, they went ahead and did it, on the assumption that by the time we got around to doing something about it, it would be too late."
New laws explicitly banning such training came into place in July 2002, but are not retrospective, which means those known to have trained in the camps are unlikely to be prosecuted.
Australia's not big into ex post facto laws, either. We'll all continue being fair until one of us gets nuked.
The source said shortly after September 11, ASIO director-general Dennis Richardson and Australian Federal Police Commissioner Mick Keelty met with key government figures and asked for an urgent strengthening of laws to stop the training. Attorney-General Philip Ruddockâs spokesman Steve Ingram said the Government would not comment on the specifics of Sheikh Mohammedâs claims. "In terms of what might or might not have have transpired between him and ASIO is not something we would comment on," Mr Ingram said.
"I can't comment on whether he farted us off or not..."
But Mr Ingram acknowledged September 11 forced the Government to strengthen legislation.
"... but I wouldn't advise him to do it again..."
"Our level of knowledge of what some people have been doing has increased significantly in the last couple of years and certainly increased significantly since September 2001," he said.
"... or we'll whack his pee-pee. If y'know what I mean."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/15/2004 12:19:04 AM ||
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As NASAâs unmanned Spirit rover, stationed on Mars, prepares to explore the planet, Russia is now planning to send a manned mission to the Red planet in 2014 consisting of up to six cosmonauts. "Red" planet, huh? OK, commie, the race is on!
"Technically the first human flight to Mars would be possible in 2014," a designer of Russian Space Corporation "Energiya", Leonid Gorshkov was quoted as saying by ITAR-TASS. "Energiya" corporation has already developed the project of Mars shuttle for to-and-fro journey of cosmonauts to the Red planet. NASAâs unmanned Spirit rover is already stationed on Mars and had sent pictures of the planetâs terrain last week. The rover is expected to separate from its lander and step out anytime to explore the planet. It rolled off the lander this morning. Hey, Europe, howâs your probe doing?
The Russian plans come into open as US President George W Bush is all set to announce an ambitious project to establish a training base on moon that can serve as a launch pad for farther-reaching missions to Mars and elsewhere.
.Also makes a excellent location for our Death Ray
Unlike the US project costing $150 billion, Russia would need only $15 billion, ten times less the American project, Gorshkov underscored. "We saved money by throwing out all that useless backup gear and safety equipment. Soviet Russian equipment always works, itâs a order."
The 70-tonne Martian ship being developed by "Energiya" would resemble the "Zvezda" module of International Space Station and would be assembled on the Earthâs orbit from the parts lifted by Russiaâs "Proton" rockets. The proposed Russian interplanetary space ship will be equipped with Electro-jets for propulsion with the help of solar energy - successfully tested on "Mir" orbital station. The manned mission to Mars would last for one-and-half to two years and during the maiden flight the cosmonauts will work only on the Martian orbit, while an automatic module will land on the Red Planetâs surface. After the accomplishment of the mission the Mars ship will remain in space on the Earthâs orbit for the future missions and in the meantime could be used as orbital weapons platform lab, Gorshkov said. I love a good race, letâs go!
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 12:57:23 PM ||
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Yes! A Race! Maybe the Chinee want to get in on the action.
2014 25-1 against anybody getting there (and back)
#2
yeah this has got me real excited,its brilliant news (i know that sounds weird) Let the race begin.Bush better not bottle out on this one and let the commie's win. This could be cool to watch this whole new space race unfold over the years to come like a proper reality t.v show.Sounds mad but i'm thinking this could really spur on the commercialisation of space and we all know what that could hold for future generations. Bush was seriously cool when he announced going to the moon then mars but now there's competition its so much more of an inncentive to really do it.I just hope us Brits might have a couple of seats spare for them on the American ride to Mars...Let the Race Begin.
#3
Also makes a excellent location for our Death Ray
I think one of Jupiter's moons works better. If I recall correctly, there's one of them with a great big crater where the planet-buster would be built.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 13:39 Comments ||
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#4
Do not be fooled for a second. Energia's been making claims like this for years. I could be wrong but I'd be surprised if Putin is involved in the claims.
My guess is Energia is trying to position themselves to piggy back the US venture in hopes of continuing the relationship after the ISS is finished. My guess is they are barking up the wrong tree.
#6
"the cosmonauts will work only on the Martian orbit, while an automatic module will land on the Red Planetâs surface"
What's the point? Our "automatic module" (rover) is already doing this in 2004.
How many flags have the Reds planted on the moon? They don't even make a marketable car, so this is one budget charter flight I wouldn't sign up for.
Posted by: Tom ||
01/15/2004 13:51 Comments ||
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#7
Wow--this will be just like the Kursk tragedy all over again, only this time not even the Norwegians and Brits will be able to recover the bodies for Vlad.
Posted by: Dar ||
01/15/2004 14:17 Comments ||
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#8
lol or perhaps it'll end up more like the theatre incident,ivan could be gassed by his own team.
They do have the only true "heavy lift" rockets left in the world - bascially, if you need to send something big up there, either you piggyback it on the shuttle, or let the Russians put it in orbit.
And if you want it to go higher than the ISS orbit, right now, the Russians are the only guys who have the big rockets to do that.
#10
Be sure to see Lileks blog today. Excellent, as almost always. And Paul Harvey (Good-daayyy!) put down the nay-sayers, giving a list of what space exploration has meant to us in terms of medical, scientific and technological breakthroughs (no, he didn't include Tang).
#11
Right On OS... Let Energia be a contractor... they know what they know.... Only folks on the planet who know who to set up an assembly line for boosters.
#12
Landing a man on mars sounds achievable. But, how will you bring him back?
How will he take off from the martian surface (the bottom of a planetary sized gravity well) unless we are planning on taking one hella lot of fuel down with us (or mine/refine it there).
#13
There's already been planning on this for a while.
Simply put, you don't land him unitl you have his ticket home already in place.
First, do what the russians describe: establish an orbiting station for transfer and supplies.
Second, you park the return vehicle there, fully supplied.
Third, survey for a proper "permanent" landing site by way of manned orbital missions.
This also has the benefit or working out the kinks in the "long haul" aspects - getting people there and back. Remember - Apollo 9 flew around the moon and didn't land, well before 11 made the landing, so there is precedent.
Fourth, you start accumulating the needed supplies and equipment in orbit.
The you start the landing phases.
The initial landings are all unmanned.
First are the "habitat" landings, containing the initial habitat modules (living quarters, food and air generation, medical facility, scientific lab, air locks, generators, etc), 2 "truck" of some sort for hauling (because the sites will be neccesairly a mile or two apart - and 2 beacuse you need redundancy), consumable supplies, etc.
You need to supply for the people to be on the surface for a year+ because resupply takes so long from earth.
Next set of landings are the return-to-orbit vehicle, and the liftoof boosters it needs to do so (each in its own landing, like each being a solid rocket booster of some sort), and you also land a refuel facility if such a thing is possible and needed for the return vehicle (i.e. make your own fuels from the surface in limited quantities, like liquid oxygen, hydrogen).
Once all thats there, you land the crew in a module that carries the most important stuff with it (the central "hub" for a base built out the descent vehicle once it lands, so heavy stuff like central airlocks, rad shielded areas, heavy equipment, etc), whose first job is to assemble the habitiat, and set up the supplies. Then they set up the return boosters and vehicle.
After that they do what Man has done since he first wandered out of the treees/caves: explore and try to figure out what it is we have found.
WHen done,you have another re-orbit vehicle arrive with boosters, etc, which is assembled by the current crew prior to their departure. When this is done, the next ground crew comes down, relieves the current crew, then conducts their launch. Once in mars orbit again, they transition the orbital space station, and get in the return vehicle for earth after fasenting everything down for the next crew.
Its pretty dmaned complicated compared to going to th moon becasue we have to not only bring everything with us, we also have to deal with higher gravity, an atmosphere (no LEM looking things), and most importantly, it takes the better part of a year to get there and to get back, so the time scale is about 3 years per mission instead of a week or so.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
01/15/2004 17:21 Comments ||
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#15
OldSpook, there is a better plan called Mars Direct, developed by Robert Zubin of the Mars Society. Basically you have two launches. The first is unmanned, it sends the return vehicle to Mars. the return vehicle creates its own fuel while there by combining Hydrogen with the Carbon Dioxide in the Martian atmosphere. When it has a whole load of fuel the second one is launched. This is a one way trip with the passengers and supplies. It lands near the return vehicle. Zubrin suggest 20 million for the entire package.
NASA upped that to 50 million by changing things slightly so that the first launch isn't expected to return to Earth but it does create the fuel, and the second launch doesn't land on Mars, it parks in Mars orbit and heads to the surface in a LEM type vehicle. They call it Mars Semi-Direct and I expect that's the plan NASA will be working with.
Of course the whole thing works best if you have a series of launches in an ongoing assault on Mars. Each series if 50 million but there has to be some reusable equipment so the costs should drop as time goes by. For example if the main ship stays in Earth orbit when it returns it might be reusuable saving a bundle.
This kind of multi phase mission would work really well as an international venture. The Europeans (or Russians or Japanese, or whoemever) could pay for and build (or buy American equipment) and launch there own people in one of the followup missions without holding up or interfering with the American missions.
#16
The Mars-direct is a cheaper way but more expensive in the long term and certainly not adequte for building a permanent presence.
The way I outlined (and have heard from Northrup and Lockheed folks I know) would take longer, cost more, but would guarantee success and long term ability to research Mars.
Bascially most of the earth-side launches would go up on Energia rockets - the Russians build damned good ones (Lockeed in Waterton Canyon Facility in Colorado uses some Energia engines on their rockets even). Its the only thing that could lift stuff in one piece to be mated into a full spacecraft.
Manned launches were supposed to have gone by way of the "spaceplane" concept- easier, cheaper and quicker for humans to go up seperate from cargo. (One of the reasons the shuttle is so complex is that it has to bear cargo stresses designed for delivery of spy satellites).
Assembly in earth orbit, and go for trans-mars from there.
I guess there is a difference in view - mars-direct just wants to get there and back. The plan I heard (and prefer) is to get there and stay.
#19
I think everyone here is forgetting one thing. SIZE. Whats the size of these vehicles? Energia and Titan IV class heavy lift vehicles can put a 45-50 ton vehicle on a Mars trajectory, but you can be pretty certain it'll be arriving there in 8-10 months time. Is 45-50 tons enough? How about 100 tons in vehicles and supplies? Will that be enough for 6-10 person crew to Mars? In my opinion we need bigger vehicles than even that. We should seriously consider nuclear powered platforms for the moon to mars side of the mission. Until we uncork that bottle this is just going to be even more complicated than it really has to be.
Posted by: Val ||
01/15/2004 20:03 Comments ||
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#20
Oh and yes I do know the article says 70 tons (and Energia can lift 100-120 tons to LEO orbit) but I suspect it will need additional boosters for the Mars trajectory.
Posted by: Val ||
01/15/2004 20:04 Comments ||
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#21
Also makes a excellent location for our Death Ray
Hey, you forgot the mind control lasers.. we MUST have those, if only to keep the Greens pruned back and the Loony Left properly subdued!
Hehehehe.
Ed.
Posted by: Ed Becerra ||
01/15/2004 21:37 Comments ||
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#22
Yes! A Race! Maybe the Chinee want to get in on the action.
2014 25-1 against anybody getting there (and back)
#23
yeah this has got me real excited,its brilliant news (i know that sounds weird) Let the race begin.Bush better not bottle out on this one and let the commie's win. This could be cool to watch this whole new space race unfold over the years to come like a proper reality t.v show.Sounds mad but i'm thinking this could really spur on the commercialisation of space and we all know what that could hold for future generations. Bush was seriously cool when he announced going to the moon then mars but now there's competition its so much more of an inncentive to really do it.I just hope us Brits might have a couple of seats spare for them on the American ride to Mars...Let the Race Begin.
#24
Also makes a excellent location for our Death Ray
I think one of Jupiter's moons works better. If I recall correctly, there's one of them with a great big crater where the planet-buster would be built.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 13:39 Comments ||
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#25
Do not be fooled for a second. Energia's been making claims like this for years. I could be wrong but I'd be surprised if Putin is involved in the claims.
My guess is Energia is trying to position themselves to piggy back the US venture in hopes of continuing the relationship after the ISS is finished. My guess is they are barking up the wrong tree.
#27
"the cosmonauts will work only on the Martian orbit, while an automatic module will land on the Red Planetâs surface"
What's the point? Our "automatic module" (rover) is already doing this in 2004.
How many flags have the Reds planted on the moon? They don't even make a marketable car, so this is one budget charter flight I wouldn't sign up for.
Posted by: Tom ||
01/15/2004 13:51 Comments ||
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#28
Wow--this will be just like the Kursk tragedy all over again, only this time not even the Norwegians and Brits will be able to recover the bodies for Vlad.
Posted by: Dar ||
01/15/2004 14:17 Comments ||
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#29
lol or perhaps it'll end up more like the theatre incident,ivan could be gassed by his own team.
They do have the only true "heavy lift" rockets left in the world - bascially, if you need to send something big up there, either you piggyback it on the shuttle, or let the Russians put it in orbit.
And if you want it to go higher than the ISS orbit, right now, the Russians are the only guys who have the big rockets to do that.
#31
Be sure to see Lileks blog today. Excellent, as almost always. And Paul Harvey (Good-daayyy!) put down the nay-sayers, giving a list of what space exploration has meant to us in terms of medical, scientific and technological breakthroughs (no, he didn't include Tang).
#32
Right On OS... Let Energia be a contractor... they know what they know.... Only folks on the planet who know who to set up an assembly line for boosters.
#33
Landing a man on mars sounds achievable. But, how will you bring him back?
How will he take off from the martian surface (the bottom of a planetary sized gravity well) unless we are planning on taking one hella lot of fuel down with us (or mine/refine it there).
#34
There's already been planning on this for a while.
Simply put, you don't land him unitl you have his ticket home already in place.
First, do what the russians describe: establish an orbiting station for transfer and supplies.
Second, you park the return vehicle there, fully supplied.
Third, survey for a proper "permanent" landing site by way of manned orbital missions.
This also has the benefit or working out the kinks in the "long haul" aspects - getting people there and back. Remember - Apollo 9 flew around the moon and didn't land, well before 11 made the landing, so there is precedent.
Fourth, you start accumulating the needed supplies and equipment in orbit.
The you start the landing phases.
The initial landings are all unmanned.
First are the "habitat" landings, containing the initial habitat modules (living quarters, food and air generation, medical facility, scientific lab, air locks, generators, etc), 2 "truck" of some sort for hauling (because the sites will be neccesairly a mile or two apart - and 2 beacuse you need redundancy), consumable supplies, etc.
You need to supply for the people to be on the surface for a year+ because resupply takes so long from earth.
Next set of landings are the return-to-orbit vehicle, and the liftoof boosters it needs to do so (each in its own landing, like each being a solid rocket booster of some sort), and you also land a refuel facility if such a thing is possible and needed for the return vehicle (i.e. make your own fuels from the surface in limited quantities, like liquid oxygen, hydrogen).
Once all thats there, you land the crew in a module that carries the most important stuff with it (the central "hub" for a base built out the descent vehicle once it lands, so heavy stuff like central airlocks, rad shielded areas, heavy equipment, etc), whose first job is to assemble the habitiat, and set up the supplies. Then they set up the return boosters and vehicle.
After that they do what Man has done since he first wandered out of the treees/caves: explore and try to figure out what it is we have found.
WHen done,you have another re-orbit vehicle arrive with boosters, etc, which is assembled by the current crew prior to their departure. When this is done, the next ground crew comes down, relieves the current crew, then conducts their launch. Once in mars orbit again, they transition the orbital space station, and get in the return vehicle for earth after fasenting everything down for the next crew.
Its pretty dmaned complicated compared to going to th moon becasue we have to not only bring everything with us, we also have to deal with higher gravity, an atmosphere (no LEM looking things), and most importantly, it takes the better part of a year to get there and to get back, so the time scale is about 3 years per mission instead of a week or so.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
01/15/2004 17:21 Comments ||
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#36
OldSpook, there is a better plan called Mars Direct, developed by Robert Zubin of the Mars Society. Basically you have two launches. The first is unmanned, it sends the return vehicle to Mars. the return vehicle creates its own fuel while there by combining Hydrogen with the Carbon Dioxide in the Martian atmosphere. When it has a whole load of fuel the second one is launched. This is a one way trip with the passengers and supplies. It lands near the return vehicle. Zubrin suggest 20 million for the entire package.
NASA upped that to 50 million by changing things slightly so that the first launch isn't expected to return to Earth but it does create the fuel, and the second launch doesn't land on Mars, it parks in Mars orbit and heads to the surface in a LEM type vehicle. They call it Mars Semi-Direct and I expect that's the plan NASA will be working with.
Of course the whole thing works best if you have a series of launches in an ongoing assault on Mars. Each series if 50 million but there has to be some reusable equipment so the costs should drop as time goes by. For example if the main ship stays in Earth orbit when it returns it might be reusuable saving a bundle.
This kind of multi phase mission would work really well as an international venture. The Europeans (or Russians or Japanese, or whoemever) could pay for and build (or buy American equipment) and launch there own people in one of the followup missions without holding up or interfering with the American missions.
#37
The Mars-direct is a cheaper way but more expensive in the long term and certainly not adequte for building a permanent presence.
The way I outlined (and have heard from Northrup and Lockheed folks I know) would take longer, cost more, but would guarantee success and long term ability to research Mars.
Bascially most of the earth-side launches would go up on Energia rockets - the Russians build damned good ones (Lockeed in Waterton Canyon Facility in Colorado uses some Energia engines on their rockets even). Its the only thing that could lift stuff in one piece to be mated into a full spacecraft.
Manned launches were supposed to have gone by way of the "spaceplane" concept- easier, cheaper and quicker for humans to go up seperate from cargo. (One of the reasons the shuttle is so complex is that it has to bear cargo stresses designed for delivery of spy satellites).
Assembly in earth orbit, and go for trans-mars from there.
I guess there is a difference in view - mars-direct just wants to get there and back. The plan I heard (and prefer) is to get there and stay.
#40
I think everyone here is forgetting one thing. SIZE. Whats the size of these vehicles? Energia and Titan IV class heavy lift vehicles can put a 45-50 ton vehicle on a Mars trajectory, but you can be pretty certain it'll be arriving there in 8-10 months time. Is 45-50 tons enough? How about 100 tons in vehicles and supplies? Will that be enough for 6-10 person crew to Mars? In my opinion we need bigger vehicles than even that. We should seriously consider nuclear powered platforms for the moon to mars side of the mission. Until we uncork that bottle this is just going to be even more complicated than it really has to be.
Posted by: Val ||
01/15/2004 20:03 Comments ||
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#41
Oh and yes I do know the article says 70 tons (and Energia can lift 100-120 tons to LEO orbit) but I suspect it will need additional boosters for the Mars trajectory.
Posted by: Val ||
01/15/2004 20:04 Comments ||
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#42
Also makes a excellent location for our Death Ray
Hey, you forgot the mind control lasers.. we MUST have those, if only to keep the Greens pruned back and the Loony Left properly subdued!
Hehehehe.
Ed.
Posted by: Ed Becerra ||
01/15/2004 21:37 Comments ||
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The European Union, risking fresh tensions with Washington, on Thursday asked for the go ahead to slap trade sanctions on the United States just as efforts get under way to revive global commerce talks.
Oh, that should help.
The EU was set to be joined in its request, lodged with the Geneva-based WTO, later on Thursday by nine nations including Japan, China, Brazil, India and South Korea. The sanctions, which could run to hundreds of millions of dollars of duties on U.S. goods, aim to force Washington to revoke a scheme under which local companies benefit when anti-dumping duties are imposed on foreign competitors. The World Trade Organization (WTO) has repeatedly ruled the measure, known as the "Byrd amendment," illegal. According to most world organizations the USA is illegal
"The Byrd amendment has raised widespread concerns from the outset as evidenced by the large number of complainants in this case," European Trade Commissioner Pascal Lamy said. "I hope the U.S. will now take action to remove this measure, thus avoiding the risk of sanctions," he added in a statement.
The fight has come to a head days after the top U.S. trade official called for efforts to revive talks to liberalize global trade, which flopped last year. Officials on both sides of the Atlantic have dismissed suggestions the battles over trade rules could weaken their resolve to win a deal at the WTO on lowering barriers to business, which the World Bank says would give a powerful boost to the struggling international economy. Nevertheless, the Byrd amendment enjoys strong support in the U.S. Congress and the threat of sanctions could spark a backlash among U.S. politicians as they prepare for a presidential election in November.
The retaliation request will be heard by the WTOâs disputes settlement body at a special session called for January 26, but EU and other officials have stressed that having the go-ahead does not mean the sanctions will be immediately enforced. Brussels has been sitting on WTO authorization to hit Washington with $4.0 billion in duties, a record, since last May in another row over tax breaks. It has warned retaliation could start in the spring unless the U.S. system is dismantled. The United States was expected to oppose the new sanctions call. As a result, the case was likely to go to arbitration, which could delay any decision on the sanctions for 60 days. The EU and its allies have not put a precise figure for what they are seeking, although they have said it should be in line with sums handed out by the U.S. administration to local firms. These EU types are becoming tiresome....
Since the amendment was passed in 2000, U.S. ball bearing, steel, seafood, pasta, candle and other firms have got some $710 million from anti-dumping duties on "unfairly traded" imports. The Bush administration, which has repeatedly said that it aims to blow off honor WTO rulings, is expected to recommend eliminating the amendment as part of its annual budget plan due out by early February. But there is no guarantee that Congress will approve. But two of the original complainants, Thailand and Australia, were apparently willing to give Washington the benefit of the doubt, agreeing to hold off on any sanctions request until the end of the year.
Posted by: JerseyMike ||
01/15/2004 10:02:20 AM ||
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#1
sorry these eu types are becoming tiresome but when you septics start playing ball maybe we wil buy your second rate goods
Posted by: luke ||
01/15/2004 10:11 Comments ||
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#2
Time to hire some good smugglers. A nice, friendly black market is what the EUnuchs need.
#3
sorry these eu types are becoming tiresome but when you septics start playing ball maybe we wil buy your second rate goods
I would think that with the dollar so low against the euro, our second rate goods are a pretty good buy right now.
Don't worry though, when push comes to shove you know we'll carry you.
#4
what we eunuchs need is for the septics to bring in lots of protectioism and put up a high wall around their god forsaken country bring all the fat bastard tourists back and rot in your own filth
Posted by: luke ||
01/15/2004 10:48 Comments ||
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#5
what we eunuchs need is for the septics to bring in lots of protectioism and put up a high wall around their god forsaken country bring all the fat bastard tourists back and rot in your own filth
Posted by: luke ||
01/15/2004 11:02 Comments ||
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#6
Luke, We'd love to get out of those silly EU countries and isolate ourselves from their history of depravity but unfortunately the last 2 times we tried that, they were left alone to fester in their own repugnance until their true genocidal, racist nature was reveleaed drawing us into 2 world wars. Now we know that the best way to keep the world safe is to keep a VERY close eye on those silly Euros with their wacky penchant for torture, intolerance, genocide and hate so it doesn't draw the rest of the world into their inclination towards barbary and self-destruction.
#7
oh luke..luke...you make me ...
I left you a message at following link.
Since I am not exporting steel or wheat, I can only say, great! Get those deficits down, ring in those US tourist dollars. Only negative is that we might be stuck buying our own cars. Thankfully, I bought mine recently. My condolences to those whose timing will not be as lucky.
Posted by: B ||
01/15/2004 11:09 Comments ||
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#8
B, you can always by japanese ;) Actually my next car will most likely be a lexus since I want to get a hybrid when they're available...
#14
Ask the French about "sanctions". The people of the United States voted with their pocketbooks not to "support" France. The French lost billions of euros. Imagine what would happen if we decided to do that to the entire Euseless mess over there. Your economy is already in the toilet. Your social welfare state has totally crippled any innovation, any entrepreneurial spirit that might exist, except in the Eastern European nations, which the rest of Europe treats worse than a poor relative. Your industry is heavily subsidized, because that's the only way you can actually afford to sell anything manufactured in Europe, where labor costs are some of the highest in the world.
Just a warning to the idiotarians in the European Union: economic war is just as much a war as a shooting war. We in the United States will respond just as rapidly to an economic war as we did to 9/11. Since Kyoto was such a failure on the part of Europe to criple American industry, you're trying something else. Keep it up, and we will retaliate in a way that will totally destroy your economies for the next 100 years.
In the meantime, the United States needs to pull out of all these damned "entangling alliances" known as "International agreements". They've all been hijacked by those that hate this nation and its successes, and will do anything to destroy us. Note to idiotarians: destroying the United States will NOT fix your internal problems.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 11:49 Comments ||
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#15
South Korea has no problem w/us dumping our soldiers there. Move em out.
#17
Septic? WTF is a Septic?
I'm sure Doc White could clarify that for you more precisely, but it means "infected". In the case of Western Europe, it's certainly appropos - the entire gang over there seem to be infected with a gross socialist disorder. If left untreated, it's probably deadly. Nations can die just as easily as individuals, and usually for many of the same reasons.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 12:47 Comments ||
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#18
Skeptical? I believe my fellow european means "american"... perhaps septic as in "septical", you know, a poo-related insult?
#19
infected with a gross socialist disorder. If left untreated, it's probably deadly. Nations can die just as easily as individuals, and usually for many of the same reasons.
#20
ho jeseus were not gonna have this crap starting now are we.The whole idea of a trade war with america is lunacy. I'm over here in southern England and i know for a fact that this will fuck up everyone's wallet.I mean the guys in Brussels that run the EU are thick enough alreadybut this just takes the piss.To be honest the whole EU is a fuckin joke and i just wish we'd pull out of all thier crap and let ourselves manage and run our own affairs.I get sick and tired of self centered German,French,and other Euro countries deciding what we do and don't do,its a fuckin joke because every country cleary has its own adgenda and wants to look after number one.Europe will never be able be a world class allience because everyone's so self centred.I hate the EU! Sorry just had to rant about this one.I say if Europe wants to start a trade war then let it but just don't let those clowns fuck up themeselves as well as England, actually i hope they do fuck themselves up it would serve them right,just leave England out of this shit. :(
#21
Whitecollar redneck: (Some) Australians refer to Americans as "seppos", which comes from rhyming slang: septic tank = yank. (One Australian woman told me she genuinely believed this was not an insult, since Americans introduced the hygienic notion of the septic tank to Australia. Sure.)
Apparently this terminology has spread to Europe. I was just having a fit of nostalgia as I read this "discussion"; luke reminds me of the many well-reasoned arguments from thoughtful, informed Europeans, which I read on Usenet.
#22
Old Patriot >> Pzzsst! This Bud's for you. (I'd think you'd actually live here like me)
Jon Shep >> Pzzsst! This Bud's for you.
Both of you hit the nail on the head. Aside fom BMW's, Mercedes, and a few (very few) other things, German products are straight to the crapper products at outrageous prices. Yes, their overbloated social welfare programs are killing them. That plus these proposed sanctions and a "proposed Defense Force" which will be sorely in need of a technological upgrade will cost Billions of Euros they dont want to commit. (Maybe they'll ask for a loan from us)
The REAL reason for the sanctions is the fact that the dollar is so low and the Euro firms are taking it in the pants. (WAAAAH!!!)I'm sure their overpriced crap isnt selling in the states too well either about now, but ours is.
Posted by: Paul ||
01/15/2004 13:42 Comments ||
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#23
Definition of septic:
An American. Ryhming slang "yank" = "septic tank"
Used a lot in the London financial markets.
The septics sit in the big glass offices and do nothing.
#24
Thanks for the definitions everyone, but now I'm feeling terribly hurt. Anyways, Ya'll are always welcome to come back and brighten me up some more luke. (backing away slowly...."The boy just ain't right")
THe low dollar has not yet caused a flow away from US funds.
So the Euro-whiners are crying - they are facing cheaper US imports, and cannot attract investmnent money to their socialist over-regulated economies. SO they are tryig to artifically jack up the cost of US imports via tariffs, while they continue to export below-cost goods they themselves subsidize.
The US position is pretty clear: stop subsidizing and dumping here and we will stop putting the tarrifs on.
The Euros need us to increase the interest rate so the dollar will strengthen. The scary thing for the Eurotrash is once we do, investment money will flow even more strongly to the US, and still leave them screwed.
#26
First of all, i deeply object to the word "eurotrash" (or "eunuchs" for that matter). Stop whining about European "anti-Americanism" as long as you use blanket insults like these against Europeans. I can't recall that anyone in Europe calls Americans "americantrash"). Nor should intelligent Rantburg members do that.
I don't know who is right in this trade dispute. But the WTO is a body whose rulings are binding for those who subscribe to it. Both the U.S. and European nations wanted it that way.
So if the WTO rules against the U.S. trade sanctions are fair game to enforce the rulings. Note that the idea is not to slap on the tariffs, but to make the losing party in the dispute comply with the rulings. Had the EU lost a dispute the U.S. would do exactly the same.
The U.S. is a WTO member because it wants to be and sees benefit in that. So if you think the WTO doesn't work for you, leave it.
As for the "overpriced German crap": Germany exports more goods than the much bigger U.S. Not per capita but in total! Can't be just BMW and Mercedes, right? Btw some "hundreds of millions of dollars" won't really do anything about a low dollar. Nobody wants a trade war. Nobody would benefit from it.
But either we accept WTO rulings or we don't. In the latter case lets abolish the WTO. But THEN we are likely to have trade wars.
#27
TGA, I don't think you can make the blanket statement that no Europeans call us Ameritrash.... and we know they call us septics so... :)
Anyway, while Germany does export a lot it's not quite the amount of US exports... We export about 1 trillion Germany exports about 600 billion. Still for the relative size of our economies they are doing much better at exporting than we are...
Regarding the WTO and all other international organizations... it's pretty apparent that the governments of most of the world don't like us very much so from our perspective it appears we don't get a fair shake in these organizations and therefore many americans are for the concept of "leave it"...
#28
DPA where do you get your figures from? The WTO report for 2002 shows the U.S. still ahead with 693 bn and Germany second with 613 bn. of merchandise trade (2003 figures not yet available). Financial Times Germany reports that in August 2003 for the first time in 11 years Germany exported more merchandise than the U.S. (62 bn = 7% more than U.S.).
Or did you add export of commercial services? The WTO report for 2002 shows 272bn for the U.S. and 99 bn for Germany (which would be the "fair balance given the population in the 2 countries). Adding both would put the U.S. ahead but with a narrower margin than you posted.
#30
The totals include both goods and services. Services would include software, movies, music, franchise fees, etc. Here are some numbers on export share.
Most EU countries are more vulnerable to a trade war than the US, because the US is typically their largest single market. Exports to Europe comprise about 5% of the American economy. EU exports to the US may be as much as 20% of the EU economy. My feeling is that if they have problems maintaining a trade embargo against Iran and Iraq, they're going to experience a depression if they implement anything against the US.
Comparisons between German and US trade numbers are specious, simply because most of Germany's exports are to other EU countries. If we counted interstate commerce as exports, we'd have a much bigger export economy on a per capita basis. Because international trade is a bigger share of Germany's economy, a trade war hurts them more in an important way - it lowers the amount of hard currency they have to buy essential goods such as food*, whereas the US is completely self-sufficient in that area.
* Getting enough food was a real problem for Germany in both World Wars, whether it was because of allied blockades or because of a shortage of hard currency to buy it from smugglers operating through neutral countries.
#31
"If we counted interstate commerce as exports.."
HUH? What kind of calculation is this??? And what you mean by "lowers the amount of hard currency to buy food"? Just how "weak" a currency is the Euro? And most food is bought intra-EU. Oh and we really have plenty of that, thank you.
#32
Agreed TGA, a trade war is good for nobody. But the point that is trying to be made is that the largest market for US goods is the US.... by a significant factor. We are large trading nation, but it's percentage of the GDP is rather small.
#33
"If we counted interstate commerce as exports.." HUH? What kind of calculation is this???
If we treat the EU as one entity, German export numbers would take a huge dive. Much of Germany's "exports" are really interstate commerce within the realm of the EU.
Just how "weak" a currency is the Euro?
The Euro will get a lot weaker vis-a-vis the dollar if its exports to the US go to zero. That's the thing about running a substantial trade surplus.
#34
So, Luke is a Euro-bigot.
I escaped the benighted confines of Carlisle, England in 1969 and became an American citizen in 1974. I did this through the admittedly imprudent stratagem of enlisting in the US Army but I survived, went to college, raised a family and got rich in a land of sunshine, good roads, and accessible dentists.
In my time, Carlisle was a world-center for the production of fog, rust, and decaying brickwork. Things have improved since then, except for the fog, but I don't miss the place.
I would miss my family except that most of them, including my now 102-year-old grandmother, followed me here.
An exception is my crazy Quaker/Trotskyite aunt, who continues to participate in pro-jihad "peace" demonstrations, just as she supported the peace-loving Vietcong a generation ago and God-knows-what before that.
If I have a toothache, I can see a good dentist tomorrow. It is a bit pricey but, thanks to the GI Bill, I can afford it. Losing the incorrigible British habit of stuffing my face with Mars bars also helps.
While we're at it, how fat would Brit-lefties be if a Mars bar cost 30p, as it does here?
I can afford to eat as much or as little as I like. Here in the States, poor people are often fat and rich ones typically are not. The poor very often drive bigger and more powerful cars than the rich, as well. That should tell you something. How would the politics of the Brit working class change if they could all afford 300 hp crew-cab pickups and the petrol to run them? That is a living reality here. I am a full professor, but the chap who reads my electric meter lives on the same block and sends his children to a private school. Homes like ours would easily set you back a million quid apiece in the UK, a small fraction of that here.
Michael Moore is the infallible authority on all things American to the Euro-left and its various satellite cults in places like Australia and Canada. It is an odd irony that he so well matches the Euro-bigot stereotype of fat, slovenly, ill-bred Americans and so few others do.
#35
Zhang Fei, you know that you can't argue like that. Or if you do you can't compare Germany with the U.S., only with California or Texas etc.
And of course we know that exports to the US wont go to zero, even a full trade war would not do that. And even if it did it would only (it's all theory now) eliminate the 28bn trade surplus with the U.S. (imports would be zero, too). But this is all nonsense. Mutual investments have brought both countries so close together that nobody would even dream about a serious conflict. Many "German" cars you drive are actually "made in USA". Btw despite the strong Euro German exports to China (weak Yuan) are up sharply.
My original posting was actually a reaction to Paul's ludicrous statement that "German products are straight to the crapper products at outrageous prices".
Germany will never be able to sell by price, only by quality. And it seems to manage quite well.
#40
sorry these eu types are becoming tiresome but when you septics start playing ball maybe we wil buy your second rate goods
I would think that with the dollar so low against the euro, our second rate goods are a pretty good buy right now.
Don't worry though, when push comes to shove you know we'll carry you.
#41
what we eunuchs need is for the septics to bring in lots of protectioism and put up a high wall around their god forsaken country bring all the fat bastard tourists back and rot in your own filth
Posted by: luke ||
01/15/2004 10:48 Comments ||
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#42
what we eunuchs need is for the septics to bring in lots of protectioism and put up a high wall around their god forsaken country bring all the fat bastard tourists back and rot in your own filth
Posted by: luke ||
01/15/2004 11:02 Comments ||
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#43
Luke, We'd love to get out of those silly EU countries and isolate ourselves from their history of depravity but unfortunately the last 2 times we tried that, they were left alone to fester in their own repugnance until their true genocidal, racist nature was reveleaed drawing us into 2 world wars. Now we know that the best way to keep the world safe is to keep a VERY close eye on those silly Euros with their wacky penchant for torture, intolerance, genocide and hate so it doesn't draw the rest of the world into their inclination towards barbary and self-destruction.
#44
oh luke..luke...you make me ...
I left you a message at following link.
Since I am not exporting steel or wheat, I can only say, great! Get those deficits down, ring in those US tourist dollars. Only negative is that we might be stuck buying our own cars. Thankfully, I bought mine recently. My condolences to those whose timing will not be as lucky.
Posted by: B ||
01/15/2004 11:09 Comments ||
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#45
B, you can always by japanese ;) Actually my next car will most likely be a lexus since I want to get a hybrid when they're available...
#51
Ask the French about "sanctions". The people of the United States voted with their pocketbooks not to "support" France. The French lost billions of euros. Imagine what would happen if we decided to do that to the entire Euseless mess over there. Your economy is already in the toilet. Your social welfare state has totally crippled any innovation, any entrepreneurial spirit that might exist, except in the Eastern European nations, which the rest of Europe treats worse than a poor relative. Your industry is heavily subsidized, because that's the only way you can actually afford to sell anything manufactured in Europe, where labor costs are some of the highest in the world.
Just a warning to the idiotarians in the European Union: economic war is just as much a war as a shooting war. We in the United States will respond just as rapidly to an economic war as we did to 9/11. Since Kyoto was such a failure on the part of Europe to criple American industry, you're trying something else. Keep it up, and we will retaliate in a way that will totally destroy your economies for the next 100 years.
In the meantime, the United States needs to pull out of all these damned "entangling alliances" known as "International agreements". They've all been hijacked by those that hate this nation and its successes, and will do anything to destroy us. Note to idiotarians: destroying the United States will NOT fix your internal problems.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 11:49 Comments ||
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#52
South Korea has no problem w/us dumping our soldiers there. Move em out.
#54
Septic? WTF is a Septic?
I'm sure Doc White could clarify that for you more precisely, but it means "infected". In the case of Western Europe, it's certainly appropos - the entire gang over there seem to be infected with a gross socialist disorder. If left untreated, it's probably deadly. Nations can die just as easily as individuals, and usually for many of the same reasons.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 12:47 Comments ||
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#55
Skeptical? I believe my fellow european means "american"... perhaps septic as in "septical", you know, a poo-related insult?
#56
infected with a gross socialist disorder. If left untreated, it's probably deadly. Nations can die just as easily as individuals, and usually for many of the same reasons.
#57
ho jeseus were not gonna have this crap starting now are we.The whole idea of a trade war with america is lunacy. I'm over here in southern England and i know for a fact that this will fuck up everyone's wallet.I mean the guys in Brussels that run the EU are thick enough alreadybut this just takes the piss.To be honest the whole EU is a fuckin joke and i just wish we'd pull out of all thier crap and let ourselves manage and run our own affairs.I get sick and tired of self centered German,French,and other Euro countries deciding what we do and don't do,its a fuckin joke because every country cleary has its own adgenda and wants to look after number one.Europe will never be able be a world class allience because everyone's so self centred.I hate the EU! Sorry just had to rant about this one.I say if Europe wants to start a trade war then let it but just don't let those clowns fuck up themeselves as well as England, actually i hope they do fuck themselves up it would serve them right,just leave England out of this shit. :(
#58
Whitecollar redneck: (Some) Australians refer to Americans as "seppos", which comes from rhyming slang: septic tank = yank. (One Australian woman told me she genuinely believed this was not an insult, since Americans introduced the hygienic notion of the septic tank to Australia. Sure.)
Apparently this terminology has spread to Europe. I was just having a fit of nostalgia as I read this "discussion"; luke reminds me of the many well-reasoned arguments from thoughtful, informed Europeans, which I read on Usenet.
#59
Old Patriot >> Pzzsst! This Bud's for you. (I'd think you'd actually live here like me)
Jon Shep >> Pzzsst! This Bud's for you.
Both of you hit the nail on the head. Aside fom BMW's, Mercedes, and a few (very few) other things, German products are straight to the crapper products at outrageous prices. Yes, their overbloated social welfare programs are killing them. That plus these proposed sanctions and a "proposed Defense Force" which will be sorely in need of a technological upgrade will cost Billions of Euros they dont want to commit. (Maybe they'll ask for a loan from us)
The REAL reason for the sanctions is the fact that the dollar is so low and the Euro firms are taking it in the pants. (WAAAAH!!!)I'm sure their overpriced crap isnt selling in the states too well either about now, but ours is.
Posted by: Paul ||
01/15/2004 13:42 Comments ||
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#60
Definition of septic:
An American. Ryhming slang "yank" = "septic tank"
Used a lot in the London financial markets.
The septics sit in the big glass offices and do nothing.
#61
Thanks for the definitions everyone, but now I'm feeling terribly hurt. Anyways, Ya'll are always welcome to come back and brighten me up some more luke. (backing away slowly...."The boy just ain't right")
THe low dollar has not yet caused a flow away from US funds.
So the Euro-whiners are crying - they are facing cheaper US imports, and cannot attract investmnent money to their socialist over-regulated economies. SO they are tryig to artifically jack up the cost of US imports via tariffs, while they continue to export below-cost goods they themselves subsidize.
The US position is pretty clear: stop subsidizing and dumping here and we will stop putting the tarrifs on.
The Euros need us to increase the interest rate so the dollar will strengthen. The scary thing for the Eurotrash is once we do, investment money will flow even more strongly to the US, and still leave them screwed.
#63
First of all, i deeply object to the word "eurotrash" (or "eunuchs" for that matter). Stop whining about European "anti-Americanism" as long as you use blanket insults like these against Europeans. I can't recall that anyone in Europe calls Americans "americantrash"). Nor should intelligent Rantburg members do that.
I don't know who is right in this trade dispute. But the WTO is a body whose rulings are binding for those who subscribe to it. Both the U.S. and European nations wanted it that way.
So if the WTO rules against the U.S. trade sanctions are fair game to enforce the rulings. Note that the idea is not to slap on the tariffs, but to make the losing party in the dispute comply with the rulings. Had the EU lost a dispute the U.S. would do exactly the same.
The U.S. is a WTO member because it wants to be and sees benefit in that. So if you think the WTO doesn't work for you, leave it.
As for the "overpriced German crap": Germany exports more goods than the much bigger U.S. Not per capita but in total! Can't be just BMW and Mercedes, right? Btw some "hundreds of millions of dollars" won't really do anything about a low dollar. Nobody wants a trade war. Nobody would benefit from it.
But either we accept WTO rulings or we don't. In the latter case lets abolish the WTO. But THEN we are likely to have trade wars.
#64
TGA, I don't think you can make the blanket statement that no Europeans call us Ameritrash.... and we know they call us septics so... :)
Anyway, while Germany does export a lot it's not quite the amount of US exports... We export about 1 trillion Germany exports about 600 billion. Still for the relative size of our economies they are doing much better at exporting than we are...
Regarding the WTO and all other international organizations... it's pretty apparent that the governments of most of the world don't like us very much so from our perspective it appears we don't get a fair shake in these organizations and therefore many americans are for the concept of "leave it"...
#65
DPA where do you get your figures from? The WTO report for 2002 shows the U.S. still ahead with 693 bn and Germany second with 613 bn. of merchandise trade (2003 figures not yet available). Financial Times Germany reports that in August 2003 for the first time in 11 years Germany exported more merchandise than the U.S. (62 bn = 7% more than U.S.).
Or did you add export of commercial services? The WTO report for 2002 shows 272bn for the U.S. and 99 bn for Germany (which would be the "fair balance given the population in the 2 countries). Adding both would put the U.S. ahead but with a narrower margin than you posted.
#67
The totals include both goods and services. Services would include software, movies, music, franchise fees, etc. Here are some numbers on export share.
Most EU countries are more vulnerable to a trade war than the US, because the US is typically their largest single market. Exports to Europe comprise about 5% of the American economy. EU exports to the US may be as much as 20% of the EU economy. My feeling is that if they have problems maintaining a trade embargo against Iran and Iraq, they're going to experience a depression if they implement anything against the US.
Comparisons between German and US trade numbers are specious, simply because most of Germany's exports are to other EU countries. If we counted interstate commerce as exports, we'd have a much bigger export economy on a per capita basis. Because international trade is a bigger share of Germany's economy, a trade war hurts them more in an important way - it lowers the amount of hard currency they have to buy essential goods such as food*, whereas the US is completely self-sufficient in that area.
* Getting enough food was a real problem for Germany in both World Wars, whether it was because of allied blockades or because of a shortage of hard currency to buy it from smugglers operating through neutral countries.
#68
"If we counted interstate commerce as exports.."
HUH? What kind of calculation is this??? And what you mean by "lowers the amount of hard currency to buy food"? Just how "weak" a currency is the Euro? And most food is bought intra-EU. Oh and we really have plenty of that, thank you.
#69
Agreed TGA, a trade war is good for nobody. But the point that is trying to be made is that the largest market for US goods is the US.... by a significant factor. We are large trading nation, but it's percentage of the GDP is rather small.
#70
"If we counted interstate commerce as exports.." HUH? What kind of calculation is this???
If we treat the EU as one entity, German export numbers would take a huge dive. Much of Germany's "exports" are really interstate commerce within the realm of the EU.
Just how "weak" a currency is the Euro?
The Euro will get a lot weaker vis-a-vis the dollar if its exports to the US go to zero. That's the thing about running a substantial trade surplus.
#71
So, Luke is a Euro-bigot.
I escaped the benighted confines of Carlisle, England in 1969 and became an American citizen in 1974. I did this through the admittedly imprudent stratagem of enlisting in the US Army but I survived, went to college, raised a family and got rich in a land of sunshine, good roads, and accessible dentists.
In my time, Carlisle was a world-center for the production of fog, rust, and decaying brickwork. Things have improved since then, except for the fog, but I don't miss the place.
I would miss my family except that most of them, including my now 102-year-old grandmother, followed me here.
An exception is my crazy Quaker/Trotskyite aunt, who continues to participate in pro-jihad "peace" demonstrations, just as she supported the peace-loving Vietcong a generation ago and God-knows-what before that.
If I have a toothache, I can see a good dentist tomorrow. It is a bit pricey but, thanks to the GI Bill, I can afford it. Losing the incorrigible British habit of stuffing my face with Mars bars also helps.
While we're at it, how fat would Brit-lefties be if a Mars bar cost 30p, as it does here?
I can afford to eat as much or as little as I like. Here in the States, poor people are often fat and rich ones typically are not. The poor very often drive bigger and more powerful cars than the rich, as well. That should tell you something. How would the politics of the Brit working class change if they could all afford 300 hp crew-cab pickups and the petrol to run them? That is a living reality here. I am a full professor, but the chap who reads my electric meter lives on the same block and sends his children to a private school. Homes like ours would easily set you back a million quid apiece in the UK, a small fraction of that here.
Michael Moore is the infallible authority on all things American to the Euro-left and its various satellite cults in places like Australia and Canada. It is an odd irony that he so well matches the Euro-bigot stereotype of fat, slovenly, ill-bred Americans and so few others do.
#72
Zhang Fei, you know that you can't argue like that. Or if you do you can't compare Germany with the U.S., only with California or Texas etc.
And of course we know that exports to the US wont go to zero, even a full trade war would not do that. And even if it did it would only (it's all theory now) eliminate the 28bn trade surplus with the U.S. (imports would be zero, too). But this is all nonsense. Mutual investments have brought both countries so close together that nobody would even dream about a serious conflict. Many "German" cars you drive are actually "made in USA". Btw despite the strong Euro German exports to China (weak Yuan) are up sharply.
My original posting was actually a reaction to Paul's ludicrous statement that "German products are straight to the crapper products at outrageous prices".
Germany will never be able to sell by price, only by quality. And it seems to manage quite well.
EFL
A prominent Muslim preacher was sentenced to 15 months in prison yesterday for writing a book advising men on how best to beat their wives without leaving tell-tale marks on their bodies. Couldnât find it on Amazon.com.
A jury in Barcelona found Mohamed Kamal Mustafa, the imam of a mosque in the southern tourist resort town of Fuengirola, guilty of inciting violence against women and also fined him £1,500. Violence being incited from an imam? Naw! Come on now. Youâre joshing me?
In his book Women in Islam, published three years ago, Mustafa wrote that verbal warnings followed by a period of sexual inactivity can be used to discipline a disobedient wife. If that failed he said that according to Islamic law, beatings could be then judiciously administered. "The blows should be concentrated on the hands and feet using a rod that is thin and light so that it does not leave scars or bruises on the body," wrote Kamal. Real charmer, this guy.
Posted by: Dragon Fly ||
01/15/2004 7:07:52 AM ||
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Mustafa argued that he had interpreted passages of the Koran and that he opposed terrorism violence against the infidel women
#2
In his book Women in Islam, published three years ago, Mustafa wrote that verbal warnings followed by a period of sexual inactivity can be used to discipline a disobedient wife. If that failed he said that according to Islamic law, beatings could be then judiciously administered.
I wonder how this guy would react to himself being "disciplined" in this manner?
#6
In his book Women in Islam, published three years ago, Mustafa wrote that verbal warnings followed by a period of sexual inactivity can be used to discipline a disobedient wife. If that failed he said that according to Islamic law, beatings could be then judiciously administered.
I wonder how this guy would react to himself being "disciplined" in this manner?
Three men reportedly linked to al-Qaeda will go on trial in Belgium in March. The trial of Tunisian Tarek Maaroufi and two other unidentified men, from Iraq and Morocco, will open at a Brussels court on March 22, prosecution spokeswoman Lieve Pellens said. Maaroufi was already sentenced to six years in prison in October for activities linked to Islamic extremism. He was described at that trial as the "spinal column" of a radical Islamic cell in Belgium. According to Le Soir newspaper, Maaroufi and his two co-accused are suspected of belonging to a terrorist cell linked to al-Qaeda in the northern port city of Antwerp. The three men had forged links with similar cells in Afghanistan, Iraq, Italy, Pakistan and Syria. "We havenât established a link with al-Qaeda but we have confirmed contacts with Italy and Spain and, for Maaroufi, with Islamist circles in London," Pellens told AFP. Belgium did not have specific anti-terrorism legislation in place at the time of the trioâs alleged activities in Antwerp — January 1999 to January 2002. Instead they are charged with forgery including making false passports. They could face up to five years in jail, although the term could be increased on the basis of previous convictions, Pellens said.
Does that mean they don't have any laws against criminal conspiracy? No organized crime statutes?
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/15/2004 12:04:30 AM ||
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Instead they are charged with forgery including making false passports.
Forgery seems to be a major occupation of pious Moslems.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
01/15/2004 19:37 Comments ||
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#2
Instead they are charged with forgery including making false passports.
Forgery seems to be a major occupation of pious Moslems.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
01/15/2004 19:37 Comments ||
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No, not the Iowa caucus:
The writing is on the wallâon the boundary walls of the sprawling ground that will host the World Social Forum kicking off on Friday. And the writing is a smack, in-your-face challenge to the World Social Forum (WSF), the worldâs âlargestâ anti-capitalism, anti-globalisation meeting which will bring together nearly a lakh (100K) participants from a hundred countries for about 1,200 events centred around the slogan âAnother World is Possible.â Oh, youâre on another world, all right.
The maroon wall-painting on NESCO grounds, Goregaon, is a wily take on it: Smash Imperialism, Build A Peopleâs World. The graffiti leads to a two-room rented flat where a motley group chalks out plans for the âârealââ struggle against imperialist globalisation and war, called the Mumbai Rsistance 2004, or MR.
"It's got a nice beat, but I don't think I could dance to it. I give it an 80, Dick..."
ââNo, weâre not splitting the anti-globalisation movement,ââ stresses G N Saibaba, general secretary of the all-India Committee of the All India Peopleâs Resistance Forum (AIPRF). Surrounded by a couple of computers and piles of bedding, he says the WSF never claimed to be a force-unifier. ââEverybody whoâs joined us from their fold says thereâs no possibility of arriving at a joint resolution at the WSF, since itâs disallowed. So, whereâs the question of splitting the struggle?ââ
His lips were moving, words came out, but they didn't make any sense. Perhaps because I'm sober and haven't ingested any recreational medications?
But the faultlines between WSF and MR are stark. For the 300 organisations supporting MR, a ââtalkshopââ such as the WSF is not only inherently flawed in structure and methodology, it even ââdefusesââ the anti-imperialist battle. The conspiracy theory? The WSF accepts money from ââimperialist fundedââ organisations like the Ford Foundation and Oxfamâsomething the WSF deniesâand softens a raging anti-imperialist wave into fruitless intellectual sparring. Youâve got to be pretty hard-core not to take "imperialist funds" in your fight to bring down "imperialists".
High on the list of MRâs problems with WSF is its refusal to decide on firm policies. ââTheyâre not inclined to arrive at some common understanding of action. And the worldâs Muslimsâafter all the havoc wreaked on their livesâare not interested in any non-serious programme,ââ says Feroze Mithaborwala of Muslim Youth of India. "Weâre serious muslims, see my turban?"
True enough, a bevy of Muslim organisations have joined the MR, otherwise mostly comprising groups well left of centre and awaiting the socialist coming. Ask Saibaba about the contentious issue of supporting even armed struggle™ against imperialism and the answer is quick. ââWe donât advocate taking of lives. But when 10 million people have been killed by sanctions and bombings, look at the number of lives lost through armed struggle™ to such imperialism. Itâs a fraction. Conflict situations sometimes leave resistors with no choice,ââ he says.
"We don't advocate the taking of lives, but by Gum, I think we should kill somebody!"
ââLook at Iraq.ââ Another "Islam is a Religion Of Peace, But.." muslim.
Professor Kamal Mitra Chenoy, co-facilitator of the WSFâs programme committee, disagrees. ââViolence is ultimately self-defeating, itâs undemocratic, and it harms the innocent, especially baby ducks women and children,ââ he says. ââAnd it gives those in power the chance to label those who resist them as terrorists.ââ
Especially when they "kill people."
About 20 km away, in Central Mumbai, scores of workers of pharma major Nicholas Piramal are protesting the ââillegal closureââ of the Mumbai factory outside the companyâs head office. As members of the Nicholas Employees Union talk, the word globalisation suddenly morphs into a monster-size collection of sorry tales. A union office-bearer says the workers, until a recent high court order, were unpaid for a year and half.
Ummm... If the company I work for misses my next paycheck, I'll be working for another company before the next one comes due. It doesn't have anything to do with globalization, either...
ââThey donât want a debate about globalisation, they want action. We are with the Mumbai Resistance,ââ he says, not wanting to be named. At the WSF office in Prabhadevi, Chenoy seems bitter at MRâs attacks. ââWe share the same goalâopposing imperialist globalisationâso how about some fraternal solidarity?ââ he asks. "Canât we just all get along?"
The picture of protest is not all about WSF and MR. The CPI-ML and the CPI-ML Red Flag are bringing together about 20 Marxist-Leninist parties ââ300 delegatesââ to a hall in Andheri Sports Complex on January 14 and 15 to discuss Communistsâ role in the upsurge against globalisation, with socialism as the alternative. "Socialism is an excellent choice if you want to stop progress. Itâs worked every place weâve tried it."
Some delegates from Europe, South Africa, Middle East, Afghanistan and Iraq are expected too. And a fun time will be had by all.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 3:41:00 PM ||
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Another world is possible. Unfortunately it's called "sharia".
Posted by: Fred ||
01/15/2004 18:30 Comments ||
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#5
May I suggest the Kool-Aid comrade?
Posted by: Stephen ||
01/15/2004 19:01 Comments ||
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#6
The juche idea. Have they formed a committee to study it? That'd really put them up there in the kook credentials department. Get them a writeup in KCNA, too.
#8
Really having to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get enough puppets for a parade. It reminds me of when you have to throw a shower for someone without many friends, so the party ends up this wierd mix of people that have almost no relationship to each other. Mr. Guest of Honor, this is Betty, she's a friend of John. Have you met John, here? He lives next door to a friend of your mom.
Posted by: B ||
01/15/2004 23:21 Comments ||
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#9
Another world is possible. Unfortunately it's called "sharia".
Posted by: Fred ||
01/15/2004 18:30 Comments ||
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#13
May I suggest the Kool-Aid comrade?
Posted by: Stephen ||
01/15/2004 19:01 Comments ||
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#14
The juche idea. Have they formed a committee to study it? That'd really put them up there in the kook credentials department. Get them a writeup in KCNA, too.
#16
Really having to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get enough puppets for a parade. It reminds me of when you have to throw a shower for someone without many friends, so the party ends up this wierd mix of people that have almost no relationship to each other. Mr. Guest of Honor, this is Betty, she's a friend of John. Have you met John, here? He lives next door to a friend of your mom.
Posted by: B ||
01/15/2004 23:21 Comments ||
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At least 650-700 militants have been killed or apprehended or have surrendered in Operation Flush-out in Bhutan. These include Ulfa, NDFB and KLO militants. Pull the handle.
Lt-Gen. JS Varma, GOC-in-C Eastern Command, stated the operation is still continuing. According to Army sources, the operation is in its residual phase. All the 30 known camps of the Indian insurgents in Bhutan have been burnt down by the Royal Bhutan Army, and militant operations have been terminated. The border sealing operations of the Indian Army in Assam are still on. That leaves the place where the shit goes after you flush, Bangladesh. Fitting choice of words, donât you think?
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 3:11:47 PM ||
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Steve---I am not knowledgeable in the Bhutan language, but Operation Flush-out would refer probably to hunting. But considering the type of characters that the Royal Bhutan Army is dealing with at the moment, your scata-logical inference is an appropriate reference here to the ops and shows a cunning sense of liguistics. Heh heh heh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
01/15/2004 15:43 Comments ||
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#2
Gotta be... even the goldies know how to flush out... (sometimes)
#3
Bhutan seems to know how to deal with this shit. No worries about BCLU lawsuits, movie star ravings, court challenges, the "sensitivities" of the world community, etc. Just get in there and kill the bastards and end the threat to their survival. I like the approach.
#4
Steve---I am not knowledgeable in the Bhutan language, but Operation Flush-out would refer probably to hunting. But considering the type of characters that the Royal Bhutan Army is dealing with at the moment, your scata-logical inference is an appropriate reference here to the ops and shows a cunning sense of liguistics. Heh heh heh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
01/15/2004 15:43 Comments ||
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#5
Gotta be... even the goldies know how to flush out... (sometimes)
#6
Bhutan seems to know how to deal with this shit. No worries about BCLU lawsuits, movie star ravings, court challenges, the "sensitivities" of the world community, etc. Just get in there and kill the bastards and end the threat to their survival. I like the approach.
EFL:
A car bomb blew up outside a Christian Bible society Thursday, injuring 12 people, damaging the wall of a nearby church and shattering parked cars. The attack in Karachi occurred after police received an anonymous phone warning that the Pakistan Bible Society would be targeted, said police operations chief Tariq Jameel. The lure...
Shortly after officers arrived, he said, assailants in a car drove up and lobbed a small explosive device at them before fleeing. The tease...
Fifteen minutes later, a bomb hidden in a nearby parked car exploded, Jameel said. And the strike...
Twelve people, including six police and paramilitary officers, were injured, said Seemi Jamali, a doctor at Jinnah Postgraduate Medical Center, where many victims were taken. At least 10 nearby cars were destroyed in the attack. TV footage showed twisted metal and shattered glass littering the street. Firefighters doused the burning cars as thick black smoke billowed into the air in the upscale central Karachi area near many of the cityâs top hotels. "We were investigating the first explosion when the second explosion occurred. It was a sudden and huge explosion," said Mohammed Iqbal, a deputy superintendent of the Rangers. Iqbal spoke to The Associated Press from his hospital bed, where he was treated for shrapnel wounds to his right arm, neck and chest. Somebody wanted to kill some cops. Salim Khursheed Khokhar, a local Christian leader, said two workers at the Bible center were injured by flying glass and the wall of the nearby Trinity Church was badly damaged. Shahbaz Bhatti, the head of the All Pakistan Minorities Alliance, said the attack had raised concerns across the country. "This terrorist act has increased the sense of insecurity among Christians. We are shocked, grieved and worried," he said. "These people are hell bent on creating anarchy in the country." Worse, they want a sharia state.
In eastern Pakistan, meanwhile, police arrested 15 suspected members of an outlawed Islamic sectarian group for allegedly trying to reorganize. The men were picked up in three separate raids Wednesday in Ghaziabad, an eastern residential neighborhood of Lahore, the capital of Pakistanâs eastern Punjab province, said Usman Anwar, a police superintendent in Lahore. Four assault rifles and other weapons were found in the raids, he said. The arrested men belong to Sipah-e-Sahaba, an organization of extremist Sunni Muslims, said Anwar. The group is blamed for the killing of hundreds of Shiite Muslims in recent years. Just let them kill each other off.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 9:38:58 AM ||
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A parked car containing explosives detonated Thursday in the violence-wracked Jammu-Kashmir state as a paramilitary convoy passed by, wounding seven troopers, police said. The explosion occurred in the Hyderpora suburb of Srinagar, the summer capital of Indiaâs only Muslim-majority state. The Hezb-ul-Mujahedeen and Al-Mansurian groups claimed joint responsibility for the bombing in a call to a local news agency.
"We dunnit! We dunnit and we're glad! Glad, y'unnerstan'?"
Posted by: TS ||
01/15/2004 8:00:09 AM ||
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A powerful blast rocked the Pakistani port city of Karachi on Thursday, police and residents said. The blast occurred outside a Christian library in the crowded Saddar Bazaar market in the city center, police said. At least eight vehicles were damaged but there were no immediate reports of casualties.
EFL
Rushdie on run after threat or F7 on the news macro key
INDIAN-born British novelist Salman Rushdie, holidaying in India, has checked out of his Bombay hotel room, a hotel official said today after hardline Muslims threatened to "blacken" the authorâs face. His departure came after a local Muslim group offered a 100,000-rupee ($2710) award to anyone who would "blacken his face". Blackening a personâs face with shoe polish or soot is considered a grave insult in India. thatâs because they are rascist, although since they arenât westerners thatâs OK with the PC crowd
The novelist, born in Bombay to a Muslim family, sparked fury among Muslims worldwide 15 years ago with his controversial novel "The Satanic Verses" which is viewed as blasphemous by many Muslims. "We definitely wanted to blacken his face and hence announced an award for anyone who would do the daring act," said Suhail Rokadia, general secretary of the Raza Academy, the organisation which spearheaded the anti-Rushdie campaign. Yesterday, more than 100 Indian Muslims jumped up and down, rolled their eyes, hooted, hollered, and wet themselves protested in Bombay against the writerâs visit, carrying banners saying "Kill Salman Rushdie" and "Kill Rushdie, the White Collar Terrorist". If we ever took incitement to violence as serious, the Koran would have to be banned
Posted by: mhw ||
01/15/2004 12:28:27 AM ||
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#1
Except that banning the Koran would be regulating religion. A little problem the Founding Father's didn't see was the contradictions in our laws. Afterall, who would have thought Muslims would come over here promote Jihad in 1776?
Well, maybe Franklin or Jefferson, but that's it!
...
I guess Madison might have saw it coming to.
Posted by: Charles ||
01/15/2004 2:39 Comments ||
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#2
Has anyone else actually read "The Satanic Verses"? It sucks! I see why Muslims are upset with it, there is a passage which can be considered blasphemous to Islam. But its buried in a dense, confused, convoluted and rambling story that makes no sense, has no ending, and is just not good.
It is blasphemous, but its also lousy literature. The fatwa against Rushdie makes as much sense as a fatwa against Ed Wood.
Posted by: Ben ||
01/15/2004 5:07 Comments ||
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#3
I made it about 3/4 of the way through the book then gave-up.Your right it sucked.
#4
I browsed "the Satanic Verses" at the book store. After two pages I decided it was awful. By the way, a Christian spin on the history of the real satanic verses is at:
#5
I havent read SV, but Paul Berman speaks highly of it - its supposed to be rambling, confused, etc - cause its supposed to represent the rambling confused thought world of certain kinds of muslims living in the West - actually quite relevant.
I take it youre not a big fan of James Joyce or William Faulkner.
Well Joyce has much rambling and so does Faulkner. I didn't particularly like either but Faulkner is actually pretty easy to read even with the rambling.
#10
Except that banning the Koran would be regulating religion. A little problem the Founding Father's didn't see was the contradictions in our laws.
The problem is, Islam is incompatible with personal freedom. There are no individual choices, only to follow Islam. You cannot "leave", you cannot marry outside the faith, you cannot do this, you cannot do that, and you shouldn't associate with anyone that's NOT a Muslim, unless it's to lord it over "kaffirs" - dhimmitude. Islam isn't "submission", it's slavery, pure and simple, with no chance EVER of emancipation. My personal take is that it's incompatible with the freedoms, and corresponding duties, of US citizenship. I can say unequivocally that it's incompatible to the oath taken by any member of the United States military. Of course, breaking or disregarding an oath made to a kaffir is not a sin, so it's not important - to a Muslim. The rest of it see it a bit differently.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 13:33 Comments ||
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#11
Love the Faulkner
I knew it! Falkner ripped off your style. Ratliff must be your last name.
#13
I still think Rushdie called "Dial a Fatwa" and put one on his own ass. Hey, business is business and who the hell heard of this guy before then? All of a sudden he's on the cover of Time magazine...
#15
Except that banning the Koran would be regulating religion. A little problem the Founding Father's didn't see was the contradictions in our laws. Afterall, who would have thought Muslims would come over here promote Jihad in 1776?
Well, maybe Franklin or Jefferson, but that's it!
...
I guess Madison might have saw it coming to.
Posted by: Charles ||
01/15/2004 2:39 Comments ||
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#16
Has anyone else actually read "The Satanic Verses"? It sucks! I see why Muslims are upset with it, there is a passage which can be considered blasphemous to Islam. But its buried in a dense, confused, convoluted and rambling story that makes no sense, has no ending, and is just not good.
It is blasphemous, but its also lousy literature. The fatwa against Rushdie makes as much sense as a fatwa against Ed Wood.
Posted by: Ben ||
01/15/2004 5:07 Comments ||
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#17
I made it about 3/4 of the way through the book then gave-up.Your right it sucked.
#18
I browsed "the Satanic Verses" at the book store. After two pages I decided it was awful. By the way, a Christian spin on the history of the real satanic verses is at:
#19
I havent read SV, but Paul Berman speaks highly of it - its supposed to be rambling, confused, etc - cause its supposed to represent the rambling confused thought world of certain kinds of muslims living in the West - actually quite relevant.
I take it youre not a big fan of James Joyce or William Faulkner.
Well Joyce has much rambling and so does Faulkner. I didn't particularly like either but Faulkner is actually pretty easy to read even with the rambling.
#24
Except that banning the Koran would be regulating religion. A little problem the Founding Father's didn't see was the contradictions in our laws.
The problem is, Islam is incompatible with personal freedom. There are no individual choices, only to follow Islam. You cannot "leave", you cannot marry outside the faith, you cannot do this, you cannot do that, and you shouldn't associate with anyone that's NOT a Muslim, unless it's to lord it over "kaffirs" - dhimmitude. Islam isn't "submission", it's slavery, pure and simple, with no chance EVER of emancipation. My personal take is that it's incompatible with the freedoms, and corresponding duties, of US citizenship. I can say unequivocally that it's incompatible to the oath taken by any member of the United States military. Of course, breaking or disregarding an oath made to a kaffir is not a sin, so it's not important - to a Muslim. The rest of it see it a bit differently.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 13:33 Comments ||
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#25
Love the Faulkner
I knew it! Falkner ripped off your style. Ratliff must be your last name.
#27
I still think Rushdie called "Dial a Fatwa" and put one on his own ass. Hey, business is business and who the hell heard of this guy before then? All of a sudden he's on the cover of Time magazine...
Fresh Army reinforcements have reached Wana in South Waziristan Agency as tribal chieftains handed over two more wanted men to the political administration there on Wednesday. The administration has issued a list of 57 wanted men. Maulvi Amir Ajam and Abdul Razzak of the Tojikhel sub-tribe surrendered to the grand jirga of the political administration and tribal elders at Azam Warsak, 12 kilometres west of Wana, a tribal elder told Daily Times on the phone from Wana. With the handover of the two men, a total of five wanted men have been handed over to the government in the last 24 hours and the tribal chief hoped that normalcy would return to the area with the Wazir tribeâs willingness to cooperate with the political administration. Tribal Chieftain Malik Mirzalam Khan said the Thursday deadline should now be extended since there was progress on the wanted menâs surrender. âIf the government is looking for lame excuses to begin operation then the January 15 deadline is good enough to deteriorate the situation,â he told Daily Times.
I guess they're handing over the scapegoats to avoid actually doing something of substance...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
01/15/2004 23:10 ||
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#1
That's okay with me. Hand over enough scapegoats and the meeting room will be less crowded. Then they'll all start lookin' around and pointing at each other.
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/15/2004 0:08 Comments ||
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#2
Maybe the SUVs full of goodies aren't showing up in beautiful downtown Shithole anymore. After all, things are tough all over...
#3
That's okay with me. Hand over enough scapegoats and the meeting room will be less crowded. Then they'll all start lookin' around and pointing at each other.
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/15/2004 0:08 Comments ||
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#4
Maybe the SUVs full of goodies aren't showing up in beautiful downtown Shithole anymore. After all, things are tough all over...
Terrorist outfit Jamiat-ul-Mujahideen on Wednesday threatened to kill Hurriyat chairman Maulana Mohammad Abbas Ansari and other leaders of his faction, a day after Centre announced the dates for talks with the separatist amalgam. At least two other terrorist outfits have issued similar threats to the leaders before. "Ansari and his colleagues are hereby warned not to kneel at the doorsteps of New Delhi or else they will face dire consequences," the outfit's self-styled field commander general Mohammad Umer said in Srinagar. "Ansari and his colleagues will be done to death one by one," he said.
"Yar! We be freedumb fighters!"
The terrorist group accused Ansari and former Hurriyat chairmen Abdul Ghani Bhat and Umar Farooq of a "sell out".
"Yeah! Yez do it our way or we'll kill yez!"
Meanwhile, authorites beefed up security around Ansari and other leaders of his faction of the Hurriyat. Security has been beefed up around Hurriyat leaders, including Ansari, after a review of their threat perception following the Centre's invitation to them for talks, police sources said. Though the Hurriyat leaders were already under police protection, their seucity cover had been strengthened with deployment of more personnel as some militant organisations were not happy with Ansari and his colleagues holding talks with the Centre, they said.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
01/15/2004 23:09 ||
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Pakistan police prevented founder leader of Lashkar-e-TaibaHafeez Muhammad Saeed, who figured in the terrorist list given by India after the attack on Indian Parliament, from addressing a public meeting at Multan in Pakistan's Punjab province.
If they were serious Hafiz would be in jug...
Saeed, against whom New Delhi had long been urging action for his persistent anti-India speeches, was briefly taken into custody by police on Tuesday and prevented from addressing the meeting at a religious seminary in Multan, Daily Times reported on Wednesday. He had quit as chief of Lashkar ahead of 2002 ban on it and formed a new NGO 'Jamat ud Dawa', which was put on watchlist by the Pakistani government when it banned several extremist outfits about two months ago. Saeed was not allowed to address the gathering by the police on the ground that his outfit Jamat ud Dawa was also banned, the daily said. The move to prevent Saeed from addressing the meeting followed Pakistan's recent assurance to India that it will not allow its territory to be used by terrorists against any country. A spokesman for Jamat ud Dawa, Abul Hassan, condemned the incident and demanded action against the police officials.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
01/15/2004 23:09 ||
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Terrorist group Hizbul Mujahideen has denied reports that it had agreed to hold talks with New Delhi.
"Yar! Talks? Never! Not while we still got ammunition left!"
Local media on Tuesday quoted Jammu and Kashmir chief minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed as indicating the possibility of talks between Hizbul and the Union Government. But Hizbul on Wednesday described the claims as "baseless".
"Yeah! We don't need no talks! We got explosives!"
"Sayeed has not initiated any talks with us. His statement is baseless. It is a conspiracy against Hizbul Mujahideen," the outfit's chief operations commander Gazi Nasiruddin said in a statement to a local newspaper.
"It's one o' them deep-laid plots!"
Sayeed was quoted by local media yesterday as saying that he was confident about a possible talks between the Centre and Hizbul and that the government has opened a channel with the outfit in this regard. There was a change at different levels and there was strong possibility of the Centre renewing its invitation to Hizbul Mujahideen for talks. There had been talks between the Centre and Hizbul in the past (July 2000) but the nature of talks this time would be different, Sayeed was quoted as saying. Gazi said only tripartite talks involving India, Pakistan and the people of Kashmir could solve the Kashmir issue. The three parties should sit together and find a solution to the Kashmir issue as per UN resolutions.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
01/15/2004 23:09 ||
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A group of British parliamentarians said Thursday there were "scores" of British, European and U.S. citizens among Iranian rebels detained in Iraq that could face extradition to Iran. The Iraqi Governing Council last month ordered the expulsion of the members of the Peopleâs Mujahideen rebel group interned by U.S. forces in Iraq where they had been armed and trained by the government of former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. "There is no doubt whatsoever that if that were to happen, we would be condemning those hundreds in Iraq to immediate torture and death," Member of Parliament Win Griffiths of Britainâs ruling Labor Party told a news conference.
But a spokesman for the Iranian Embassy in London said repentant rebels would be allowed to return to their families but their leaders would face trial on terrorist charges. "A great number of them repent of their past. If they come to Iran, there would be no problem," spokesman Mohammad Eskandari told Reuters. "The others must face trial and be punished. You know, they have shed much innocent blood. They have killed at least 3,000 Iranians. They have killed even Americans in the past. They are a terrorist group."
Lord Corbett of Castle Vale, chairman of the British Committee for Iran Freedom, which organized Thursdayâs news conference, put the figure of Britons, other Europeans and U.S. citizens among Mujahideen detainees in Iraq at "scores." Lord Corbett said 220 Members of Parliament and 85 members of the House of Lords had signed a statement condemning the Iraqi councilâs decision to expel Mujahideen members. "The Iraqi Governing Council have to ask themselves âdo they want a fresh start in Iraq and the region or do they want blood on their hands from day one?"â said another British Labor MP, Steve McCabe. Canada has said 20 of its citizens were among those held and pressed Washington not to deport them to Iran. But Britainâs Foreign Office said it was not aware of any UK citizens being detained in the camp north of Baghdad. The Peopleâs Mujahideen helped overthrow the U.S.-backed shah during Iranâs 1979 Islamic revolution, but then fell out with the dominant party of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini and then fought alongside Iraqi troops in the 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq war. The Peopleâs Mujahideen is listed by the United States and the European Union as a terrorist organization. The group has attracted some disaffected Iranian exiles, but its attempts to stir up revolt against the Islamic Republic have fallen on deaf ears inside Iran, where it has little or no support.
Iranians have probably had it with dictatorships of one sort or another. Why trade an authoritarian shah for a totalitarian ayatollah for a dictatorship of the proletariat? On the other hand, dumping the MEK back to Iran would be a pretty crummy thing to do. At this moment, it looks like we're trying to get them out of the terrorism business and into shape as some sort of political party.
EFL
Over the objections of the Bush administrationâs hawks, Secretary of State Powell is bringing back President Clintonâs point man to the old Iraqi opposition to oversee the transfer of power to an Iraqi government in Baghdad from coalition forces. Next week, the American ambassador to the Philippines, Francis Ricciardone, will take up new offices in Foggy Bottom to run what one State Department official told The New York Sun is an âIraq policy super office.â In his new capacity he will negotiate the status of American forces in Iraq and prepare for the opening of an American Embassy in Baghdad after a new government is formed in June. Administration officials told the Sun that the deputy defense secretary, Paul Wolfowitz, tried for weeks to block the appointment of Mr. Ricciardone. Translation: heâs no Paul Bremer.
Between 1999 and 2001, Mr. Ricciardone was in charge of implementing [the Iraqi Liberation Act] for the State Department. He spent much of his time seeking to broaden the INCâs coalition of Saddam Husseinâs opponents and fighting with the ones willing to work with America get rid of the tyrant. âI think it is a horrible shame that the person appointed to thwart congressional intent on the Iraq Liberation Act is now pulled from the Philippines to work on Iraq policy,â one of the staff members who wrote that legislation, Randy Scheunemann, said yesterday. âItâs an insult to Iraqi democrats and a slap at our interests in the Philippines.â
As much as many of the administrationâs hawks dislike Mr. Ricciardone, Secretary Powell has grown to rely on him. Shortly after September 11, 2001, Mr. Powell tapped him to run the State Departmentâs task force on the coalition against terrorism, a 24-hour a day operations center that monitored diplomatic traffic on Al Qaeda. The career foreign service officer was also on the front lines of the Clinton administrationâs efforts to try Saddam in an international tribunal, similar to the one hearing the case against Serbian ex-dictator Slobodan Milosevic. That was then, this is now.
Mr. Ricciardone was also a key player in the State Departmentâs early attempts to expand the Iraqi opposition to bring back opposition groups sponsored by the Iranian government. Woo hoo! Bring on SCIRI, al-Dawa, and that theocracy.
#2
The career foreign service officer was also on the front lines of the Clinton administrationâs efforts to try Saddam in an international tribunal, similar to the one hearing the case against Serbian ex-dictator Slobodan Milosevic.
Great. We all know what a resounding success the eurotrash has had prosecuting slobo for war crimes. Does that mean this guy will have saddam getting elected to the IRAQI PARLIAMENT in a few years?
#3
Dammit, if Bush wants to lose my vote for him in November this is DEFINITELY the way to do it!
Posted by: Val ||
01/15/2004 16:38 Comments ||
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#4
Powell was a good general in the mold of Geroge C. Marshall. But he has been inside the beltway too long, he's started to go-along to get-along far too much instead of housecleaning in Foggy Bottom like he should. Look for him to depart soon after Bush's re-election, and possibly have Condi Rice put in there to tear the joint apart.
#11
And I suppose it's coincidence that the IGC is trying to impose sharia in Iraq at just the same time. I didn't back Bush and the war to hand the results over to a bunch of turbans.
#13
The career foreign service officer was also on the front lines of the Clinton administrationâs efforts to try Saddam in an international tribunal, similar to the one hearing the case against Serbian ex-dictator Slobodan Milosevic.
Great. We all know what a resounding success the eurotrash has had prosecuting slobo for war crimes. Does that mean this guy will have saddam getting elected to the IRAQI PARLIAMENT in a few years?
#14
Dammit, if Bush wants to lose my vote for him in November this is DEFINITELY the way to do it!
Posted by: Val ||
01/15/2004 16:38 Comments ||
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#15
Powell was a good general in the mold of Geroge C. Marshall. But he has been inside the beltway too long, he's started to go-along to get-along far too much instead of housecleaning in Foggy Bottom like he should. Look for him to depart soon after Bush's re-election, and possibly have Condi Rice put in there to tear the joint apart.
#22
And I suppose it's coincidence that the IGC is trying to impose sharia in Iraq at just the same time. I didn't back Bush and the war to hand the results over to a bunch of turbans.
As a result of aggressive operations this week, the coalition announces the capture of Khamis Sirhan al-Muhammad, number 54 in the coalition 55 deck-of- cards list. Khamis was captured as a result of a combined operation by the 82nd Airborne Division and Special Operations Forces. He was captured January 11th in the vicinity of Ar Ramadi and is currently in coalition custody. With the capture of number 54, we have taken another significant step in reducing anti-coalition resistance. He was an enabler for many of the resistance attacks on Iraqis as well as U.S. and coalition forces. These attacks were crimes against the Iraqi people.
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Coalition forces conducted a cordon-and-knock and detained Brigadier General Muklif, a brigade target suspected of being the leader of a local terrorist group. No injuries or accidents were reported as part of this capture.
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Coalition and Iraqi Civil Defense Corps forces conducted a raid near Jabal targeting Karim Hamid Khalil, a Sunni imam, acting on a tip from a local Iraqi, given to the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps. The imam apparently brought a man in from in Fallujah to speak during prayer call. The broadcast from the mosque told Iraqis to attack coalition forces, ICDC and Iraqi police. The Civil Defense Corps apprehended the imam but was not able to capture the second target.
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While on patrol southwest of Samarra, coalition forces were attacked by a large group of enemy fighters. Twenty-six persons were captured, eight killed and one wounded in the engagement. There were no coalition casualties.
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This morning in Baqubah, a car bomb detonated near an Iraqi police station, killing five people and wounding 29 others. Two Iraqi police officers, one Iraqi Civil Defense Corps member and two civilians were listed among the dead. An initial investigation indicated that an improvised explosive device, consisting of an artillery round and grenades, was placed in a small automobile and parked near the police station. Two additional improvised explosive devices were found near the scene of the explosion and were disarmed.
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In Baghdad, coalition and Iraqi security forces conducted 490 patrols and captured three enemy personnel. Coalition forces discovered a bomb consisting of 155-millimeter artillery round with PE-4 rigged with a pager. The unit searched the area and captured one Iraqi with a strip map on its person, and on that strip map was the location of where the bomb was placed. A vapor tracer 2 test was used, and the prisoner tested positive for nitrates and the vehicle tested positive for other explosive items.
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Coalition forces in the west conducted a cordon-and-search in Fallujah to kill or capture Amin Jasim Sahab and Major General Mahmoud. Both primary targets were captured. Sahab is a former Farah level Baâath party member, and is believed to be responsible for inciting anti-coalition activities in the Fallujah area; while Major General Mahmoud is an anti-coalition cell leader, and reportedly has direct ties to the former regime leader Saddam Hussein.
Although much attention is given to the large reconstruction projects that are currently under bid, one of the primary tools for improving the lives of average Iraqi citizens has been the Commanderâs Emergency Response fund, called CERP. This program was initiated in May to allow commanders to make an immediate impact and address local issues. Since then, CERP has provided a means for commanders to rapidly allocate resources to meet local needs.
Since CERPâs inception, commanders have spent over $126 million to directly improve education, health care, electricity, water and security. Each major command has been allocated CERP funds based on the geography, population and needs of their respective region. CERP projects are the grassroots effort by local commanders to quickly deal with short-term needs and are conducted in concert with large-city and nationwide projects headed by USAID and the Corps of Engineers. SNIP
Weâve spent a total of $126 million in CERP funds. Thatâs since May of last year. Approximately $2 million is in support of operations; $29 million, almost $30 million for education; $3 million for electricity -- and again, thatâs the small generators for specific applications; $8 million for Facility Protection Service -- payments for those individuals that are providing those services; $6.4 million for health-related items; $1.5 million for humanitarian efforts, which would include things like housing for people that are homeless; $24 million for other public services, and that includes a pretty broad range, including things like getting fire departments back up and running, getting fire trucks, communications for the fire (sic); $14.7 million for police and other security, and that includes local police as well as border police; $16 million for reconstruction, and thatâs to rebuild key buildings, key government service buildings; $6.8 million for rule of law and government-related issues -- thatâs anything from establishing places for advisory councils to work and operate out of; $2.2 million for social programs; $900,000 for transportation, things like getting buses and that type of thing, fixing major -- or smaller items for road work; and $8.9 million on water and sewer projects. This money comes from the Iraqi assets seized, such as the millions in cash found hidden away during the Liberation.
For the first time in 30 years, an independent judiciary is functioning, and nearly all of Iraqâs 400 courts are open.
Baghdad now has 88 neighborhood advisory councils.
The citizens of Iraq stay informed about developments in the country through more than 200 independent newspapers.
35 percent of households now receive news via satellite TV dishes, which were illegal under Saddamâs regime.
Health care spending has increased to 26 times what Saddam spent.
With the help of $6.4 million in CERP funds, all 240 hospitals, and 95 percent of Iraqâs 1,200 clinics have reopened, and the neglected health care facilities are undergoing rehabilitation and reconstruction.
856 health projects have been funded.
Over 22 million vaccinations have been administered.
Pharmaceutical distribution has increased from 700 tons in May to a total of 12,000 tons through today.
5.9 million students are registered and attending school, which exceeds prewar numbers.
During the prior regime, only one in six students had access to textbooks, most of which were outdated and filled with Baâathist and pro-Saddam messages. Today, 51 million textbooks, free of propaganda, are printed and distributed.
All 22 universities and 43 technical institutes are open.
Ninety- seven thousand freshman applications have been received by the Ministry of Education, compared to 63,000 last year.
Over 230,000 Iraqis now provide security for their fellow citizens, and Iraqi security forces now account for more than half of all forces in Iraq.
Over 68,000 policemen have been hired. An additional number are currently in training.
The new Iraqi Civil Defense Corps has over 17,000 personnel operating and another 3,800 in training.
Fifty-one thousand five hundred Iraqis are in the border police force.
Ninety- seven thousand are in the Facility Protection Service, protecting vital infrastructure from sabotage and terrorist attacks.
Before the war, nearly three-quarters of Iraqâs 27,000 kilometers of vital irrigation canals were weed-choked by years of neglect. Today over 18,500 kilometers of irrigation canals have been cleared, bringing water to tens of thousands of farmers, creating jobs and revitalizing the Iraqi economy.
In Baghdad, commanders have used CERP funds to make emergency repairs to a sewer and water system that had collapsed due to neglect and looting.
Construction has begun on over 1,000 new houses.
As anyone who has driven in Baghdad knows, the number of privately owned vehicles has doubled from 500,000 in April to over 1 million today
#3
#3 At this rate we will never win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people and only create more violence! Damn if only Al Bore were in office he would know what to do.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Paul ||
01/15/2004 13:48 Comments ||
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#4
F****** A!
I'm gonna love shuving this in the faces of certain people that i know.
#6
Thanks for the update on progress being made in Iraq. I was interested in progress made in revitalizing Iraqi agriculture. Could you tell me of any other measures being taken to help agriculture in that country?
Posted by: Gabriel Hiza ||
06/01/2004 7:42 Comments ||
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#7
Tsk, tsk, tsk. What cultural imperialism, bringing them fresh water, textbooks, and courts. We should be ashamed.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 10:05 Comments ||
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#9
#3 At this rate we will never win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people and only create more violence! Damn if only Al Bore were in office he would know what to do.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Paul ||
01/15/2004 13:48 Comments ||
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#10
F****** A!
I'm gonna love shuving this in the faces of certain people that i know.
#12
Thanks for the update on progress being made in Iraq. I was interested in progress made in revitalizing Iraqi agriculture. Could you tell me of any other measures being taken to help agriculture in that country?
Posted by: Gabriel Hiza ||
06/01/2004 7:42 Comments ||
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. . . Youâre a senior adviser on education for the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), recruited by the White House and the office of the secretary of defense and approved by Ambassador Paul Bremer. Your five-month mission is to help revive teaching and learning in a country on the mend from a fascist despotism. Whatâs it like?
⢠Itâs gratifying. The Iraqi children and grown-ups smile, always say "Welcome" and wave. The teachers and administrators are friendly and dedicated to academic success. . . . Iraqi parents love standardized testing and were fervently concerned not to let either the war in March and April, or the subsequent guerrilla skirmishes, interfere with the nationwide testing program. . . .
⢠Itâs not Afghanistan. I saw girls in school all over Iraq. In primary school, 45% of students are girls; in secondary school, 40%. . . . Iraq has a tradition of valuing education and a reputation for having produced, in the pre-Saddam era, some of the best architects, doctors and engineers in the Arab Middle East.
⢠Itâs not as scary as it looks on TV. But you do have to exercise reasonable prudence. I traveled in Baghdad and around the country more than most civilians who worked in the Baghdad palace. Usually I traveled with guards armed with assault rifles. I personally found it a bit nerve-racking whenever I was stuck in a traffic jam. But in five months I never saw a firefight, a bleeding wound or a dead body. I felt and heard explosions, but none were closer than several football fields away. Watching TV coverage of Iraq is much scarier than being there.
In a sense, much of my and my colleaguesâ efforts were to help a multitude of coalition civilian agencies, military units and international agencies talk to each other and coordinate work in the field of education. We didnât, for example, want Japan and the U.S. Agency for International Development both trying to repair the same school. We also tried to create conditions for normal schoolwork by children and teachers. When American or international agencies wanted to impose regressive progressive education (learn-through-play) in Iraqi schools, we reminded representatives of these agencies that Iraqis had to decide what they wanted to be taught in the schools and how it would be taught.
While there, I and my colleagues in education met with school officials from the provinces, who since the war had been largely cut off from Baghdad (in a country that has lately had no postal system, no telephone system and little Internet access). We helped re-establish communication with Kurdish officials who had functioned independently of Baghdad for 12 years. The coalition military working with civilian advisers made sure that hundreds of thousands of teachers scattered around the country were paid regularly, in the absence of a working banking system.
. . .
Religion is taught in Iraqi schools as a subject now and was taught under Saddam. If you are a Muslim, you take classes in Islam. If you are a Christian, you are excused from taking Islamic classes. If there are enough Christians in a school, a Christian teacher teaches them classes in Christianity. The Saddam textbooks on Islam are not al Qaeda reprints. But they do present a Sunni interpretation on such matters as ritual ablutions and the early Caliphate. Shiite students were forced under Saddam to learn the Sunni interpretation, which was the only interpretation of Islam allowed in the schools. With the exception of a school for the diplomatic community, there were no private primary and secondary schools. Independent schools were nationalized in the 1970s. Currently, the Ministry of Education has a task force drafting a measure that would once again legalize private schools.
. . .
The White House had specifically told my colleagues and me to concentrate on getting the children, teachers and textbooks back in the classrooms. We were wisely admonished by White House officials to offer our best advice when asked by Iraqis, but to avoid directly imposing extensive reforms on the Iraqi schools. We followed this suggested course. Thus, we helped remove totalitarian teachings from the classrooms, helped the schools and ministry resume operations, and kept our advisory office small. Now Iraqis themselves are restructuring the ministry organization, considering decentralization plans, and holding forums on curriculum reform and the future of Iraqâs school system. . . .
As the Coalition Provisional Authority turns over civilian and military responsibilities to the Iraqis between now and the end of June, I hope the process goes as well in other fields as it has in education.
Mr. Evers, a research fellow at the Hoover Institution and a member of the Institutionâs Koret Task Force on K-12 Education, served, from July 20 through Dec. 17, 2003, as a senior adviser for education to Ambassador Paul Bremer.
Posted by: Mike ||
01/15/2004 4:56:38 AM ||
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CAMP EDEN, Iraq (AP) - Tests by Danish and American experts indicate there is no chemical warfare agent in mortar shells unearthed in southern Iraq, but conclusive word will only come from a lab in Idaho. Earlier examinations had indicated a blister agent was in the shells, which apparently date to the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s.
The U.S.-led Iraq Survey Group conducted tests on five of 36 shells found Friday and all came up negative, the Danish army said Wednesday in a statement from Copenhagen. Those results contradicted Danish and British field tests that were positive for a blister agent. "Based on the tests, the experts conclude that none of the shells contain chemical warfare agents," the Danish army statement said, adding that more studies are needed for final confirmation.
The earliest results may have been positive because tests by troops in the field are designed to favor a positive reading, erring on the side of caution to protect soldiers. A U.S. official, speaking Wednesday on condition of anonymity, said chemicals such as phosphorous used in some munitions can produce false positives. The official said "there is no doubt" that Saddam Hussein had blister agents in the early to mid-1990s, but itâs not clear where they are now. Syria? Just asking.
"This was a stash. They were stacked and ordered and wrapped in plastic. They werenât just lying in the ground," Capt. Kim Vibe Michelsen, the spokesman of the Danish armyâs Camp Eden in southern Iraq, told The Associated Press. He said they must have been buried at least 10 years ago. Michelsen said the Danish troops have dug up 50 shells so far and at least 50 more are believed to be underground. Villagers told the troops that they found 400 or more several years ago and threw them in the Tigris River, Michelsen said. And then drank the water. That might explain Harold Pinterâs "three-headed babies".
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/15/2004 12:18:58 AM ||
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#1
There's a companion piece to this story in my Winds of War today over at Winds of Change that says that test results were inconclusive. It also offers some extremely interesting additional information.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/15/2004 0:20 Comments ||
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#2
What the hell do they think it is, cappuccino?! Sounds like they're willfully NOT identifying it. Maybe the dutch 'expert' should take a big drink of the stuff and let us know what happens.
#3
There's a companion piece to this story in my Winds of War today over at Winds of Change that says that test results were inconclusive. It also offers some extremely interesting additional information.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/15/2004 0:20 Comments ||
Top||
#4
What the hell do they think it is, cappuccino?! Sounds like they're willfully NOT identifying it. Maybe the dutch 'expert' should take a big drink of the stuff and let us know what happens.
A suicide car bomb exploded in the Iraqi town of Baquba Wednesday, killing at least five people and injuring 30 and the US army said it shot dead eight Iraqis in a firefight in Samarra. âFive people were killed and 30 were injured including 14 police officers,â said Rafed Mohammed, a surgeon at Baqubaâs General Hospitalâs emergency unit. Eight Iraqis were killed Tuesday in a firefight with US troops near the town of Samarra, north of Baghdad, the US military said Wednesday. âYesterday afternoon, southwest of Samarra, soldiers from the 1-8 Infantry Battalion killed eight attackers and wounded one,â said Major Josslyn Aberle.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
01/15/2004 23:10 ||
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#1
" Yar, we be..." *Thud*
" Leave one alive and give the rest lead poisoning! "
Posted by: Charles ||
01/15/2004 2:48 Comments ||
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#2
No lead - we're using tungsten in military ammo now. But, the principle still applies ... we're just being more environmentally friendly while doing it.;-)
#3
unjust aggression leads to freedom fighters dying
the eight Iraqis were probably killed accidently or were there no Brits around for trigger happy septics to shoot
Posted by: luke ||
01/15/2004 10:17 Comments ||
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#4
"unjust aggression leads to freedom fighters dying the eight Iraqis were probably killed accidently or were there no Brits around for trigger happy septics to shoot"
This "luke" guy is funny ! What is it, Troll Sweeps Week ?
Posted by: Carl in N.H. ||
01/15/2004 12:25 Comments ||
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#5
What is it, Troll Sweeps Week ?
No, it's Stupid Australians Week, and one of the club's few members has decided to make an appearance.
#8
Trolls are trolls. We need to feed them rope, so they'll hang themselves. Oh, wait - we don't have to, they do that themselves. Trolls - the life form below bacteria on the animal family tree.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 20:23 Comments ||
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#9
" Yar, we be..." *Thud*
" Leave one alive and give the rest lead poisoning! "
Posted by: Charles ||
01/15/2004 2:48 Comments ||
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#10
No lead - we're using tungsten in military ammo now. But, the principle still applies ... we're just being more environmentally friendly while doing it.;-)
#11
unjust aggression leads to freedom fighters dying
the eight Iraqis were probably killed accidently or were there no Brits around for trigger happy septics to shoot
Posted by: luke ||
01/15/2004 10:17 Comments ||
Top||
#12
"unjust aggression leads to freedom fighters dying the eight Iraqis were probably killed accidently or were there no Brits around for trigger happy septics to shoot"
This "luke" guy is funny ! What is it, Troll Sweeps Week ?
Posted by: Carl in N.H. ||
01/15/2004 12:25 Comments ||
Top||
#13
What is it, Troll Sweeps Week ?
No, it's Stupid Australians Week, and one of the club's few members has decided to make an appearance.
#16
Trolls are trolls. We need to feed them rope, so they'll hang themselves. Oh, wait - we don't have to, they do that themselves. Trolls - the life form below bacteria on the animal family tree.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 20:23 Comments ||
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Malaysiaâs opposition Islamic Party (PAS) on Thursday protested the governmentâs move to allow sexy American pop diva Mariah Carey to hold a concert next month, saying it would encourage moral degradation.
How about if you just don't go?
In a letter to Tourism Minister Abdul Kadir Sheikh Fadzir, PASâ youth wing said Careyâs planned concert at a stadium in Kuala Lumpur on February 22 was also disrespectful to Muslims because it coincided with an Islamic religious holiday. "To allow a western artist, especially Mariah Carey who is well-known for her sexy clothing, to perform on Awal Muharram is disrespecting the sensitivities of Muslims and can be seen as challenging the status of Islam as Malaysiaâs official religion," it said. "We cannot accept such an immoral concert to be held on Awam Muharram or on any other days... it is not only an insult to Muslims but will encourage moral degradation especially among youths."
Just looking for an excuse to seethe, aren't they?
PAS youth wing noted that this was not the first time the tourism ministry had approved such concerts, noting that it also allowed major US rock group Linkin Park to perform here in October. It called for Careyâs concert, which is part of her "Charmbracelet" world tour, to be cancelled immediately and urged the government to apologise to Muslims, who make-up some 60 percent of Malaysiaâs 25 million population. The government should organise more programmes to benefit the Muslim community, rather than tarnish good eastern values by bringing in such "obscene and immoral culture," it added.
Sounds to me like 40 percent of the population might not find it objectionable.
#1
Apologise to muslims? How about: "I'm sorry you're so ignorant and sexually immature with such low self control and self esteem that you find a partially dressed woman unbearable"?
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/15/2004 20:31 Comments ||
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#2
Mariah....immoral....hmmmmmm.....
Western Civilization will survive fairly intact despite the best efforts of the Islamic fundamentalists.
Posted by: Mark ||
01/15/2004 20:34 Comments ||
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#3
Yeah, they'll be seething on one hand and..., well, you know what they'll be doing with the other one.
#6
Maria isn't my cup of tea. But if 'Islam' is so fragle and immature that even exposure to a half-clad skanky woman can cause its destruction perhaps it isn't worth following.
Or perhaps we should send Maria to Iran instead of the army :).
#7
Apologise to muslims? How about: "I'm sorry you're so ignorant and sexually immature with such low self control and self esteem that you find a partially dressed woman unbearable"?
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/15/2004 20:31 Comments ||
Top||
#8
Mariah....immoral....hmmmmmm.....
Western Civilization will survive fairly intact despite the best efforts of the Islamic fundamentalists.
Posted by: Mark ||
01/15/2004 20:34 Comments ||
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#9
Yeah, they'll be seething on one hand and..., well, you know what they'll be doing with the other one.
#12
Maria isn't my cup of tea. But if 'Islam' is so fragle and immature that even exposure to a half-clad skanky woman can cause its destruction perhaps it isn't worth following.
Or perhaps we should send Maria to Iran instead of the army :).
Thailand has blamed a band of Muslim separatists for an eruption of violence in the south. âWe found that they had aimed to seize control of Narathiwat within 1,000 days and raise their flag over the kingâs Thaksin Rajaniwes palace,â Defence Minister Thammarak Isarangkura Na Ayutthaya told Thai television. He said the group had been training young Thai Muslim recruits near Thailandâs rugged border with Malaysia. And he chided the local authorities for failing to verify intelligence which showed the movement had recruited youths to train in the jungle. Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra also pointed to a Muslim insurgency but dismissed the movement as a band of âcrazy peopleâ whose leaders had slipped out of the country after coordinating recent attacks.
Well, yeah. They're a bunch of "crazy people" who want to gnaw off a chunk of your country. Put them in a nut house or put them in jug or kill them — don't just roll your eyes and deny they're dangerous.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
01/15/2004 1:17:32 AM ||
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The Supreme Court (SC) has set up a panel of judges to hear cleric Abu Bakar Baâasyirâs appeal of his three-year prison sentence for treason.
If the fix is in, like by Hamzah Haz, this is where they'll spring him...
Mugiharjo, the courtâs criminal division director, said on Wednesday that Chief Justice Bagir Manan would lead the panel of judges comprising of Paulus Lotulung, Parman Suparman, Dirwoto, and Muchsin. On Tuesday, Bagir told a delegation of Muslim clerics that the court may issue a verdict on the case on January 19. Baâasyir, believed to be the leader of Jamaah Islamiyah (JI), was earlier sentenced to four years in prison for treason by the Central Jakarta District Court. However, the Jakarta High Court later overturned the verdict, and shortened his prison sentence to three years for document forgery and an immigration offense.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/15/2004 12:36:37 AM ||
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"Okay, kiddies! Everybody out for volleyball! Mahmoud! Where's your gun?"
Others did not go beyond sheltering fugitives on the run and giving funds. For their brush with terrorism, 12 Singaporeans were served with Restriction Orders on Saturday. Their activities were considered peripheral, and their involvement not deep enough to deserve a detention, said Home Affairs Minister Wong Kan Seng yesterday at a press conference to make public the details of the third phase of terrorist investigations. Of the dozen, 10 were members of the deviant JI network. The other two were members of the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) based in the Philippines.
Which has approximately squat to do with Singapore...
Most of the JI members had undergone physical training exercises in Malaysia, and this included a session on making and using Molotov cocktails, or firebombs. Three of them were even ordered in December 2001 to look for a warehouse with good lorry-parking facilities, in connection with the rigging of truck bombs against targets in Singapore. This was part of an Al-Qaeda operation that was being directed by the terror groupâs operative âSammyâ or Jabarah Mohamed Mansour, and the lateFathur Rohman Al-Ghozi. But the three, Mohd Ashikin Mohd Yusof, 33, Abu Bakar Sedek Hashim, 53, and Mohammad Hashim, 42, never got very far. They were told abruptly by their JI leaders to drop inquiries when fellow JI members were nabbed that same month, in the first of three phases of arrests.
TO ALL PERSONNEL:
Never mind.
Thank you,
The Management
Among these latest 10 revealed, several were also involved in running JI youth or children camps called tamrin. Held between 1995 and 1998, the camps were used to talent-spot potential JI recruits from among the unsuspecting camp participants and their parents. One such activity included a visit to Sembawang Drug Rehabilitation Centre. The bus ride there was used as a cover to film the Sembawang area where American servicemen live. The footage was later used in plans to target a bus service that ferried the servicemen to Yishun MRT station. A few among the 10 also offered their homes as refuge to JI fugitives following the first phase of arrests.
"Ummm... Yeah. I guess you can hide here."
"Thanks, comrade!"
"I mean, they ain't gonna bulldoze my house or anything, are they?"
[Stare]
"Maybe I can still get you a room at the Motel 6?"
Jasmani Bakran, 42, for instance, lent his house in Taman Putri Wangsa, Johor, to Singapore JI chief Ibrahim Maidin, who used it to meet JI members on the run in December 2001. Another, Mohd Yusuf Mohd Noor, 52, also opened up his house in Taman Sutra, Johor, for a week during the same time to JI refugees.
As for the two MILF members, they were enamoured with the idea of performing jihad in Mindanao with the MILF separatist group. Mohd Abdul Rahman Baharom, 45, visited the MILF twice and even volunteered in 2000 to join its fight against the Philippine army. His offer was not taken up, however. Abdul Ghani Omar, 28, helped his father-in-law and Singaporeâs leading MILF member Husin Abdul Aziz to transmit funds and materials to the MILF. Among the materials were remote control accessories ordered by Husin from a shop here.
Mr Wong explained why the Internal Security Department did not detain the 12. âWe have made arrests and detentions when necessary. But when a Restriction Order is sufficient to prevent the potential threat posed by the individual, there is no need to detain that individual.â His comments may serve to allay the fears of some community and mosque leaders contacted last night. Mr Rahmat Sulaiman, chairman of Hassanah Mosque, for instance, wondered if it would have been better to detain the 12. âOne of these days, if they lose their minds, they may pose a risk to society if they decide to blow up Singapore or be a suicide bomber. You never know,â he said.
"Id just cut their heads off and be done with it. Better safe than sorry, y'know."
But others such as MPs Zainul Abidin Rasheed (Aljunied GRC) and Ho Geok Choo (West Coast GRC) placed their trust in the authorities. Said Mr Zainul, who is also Mayor of the Northeast Community Development Council: âThe fact is the security agencies know best and they consider these people safe enough to interact with the community at large.â
"As long as they're leashed and muzzled, anyway."
He urged Singaporeans not to ostracise them, but to give them a chance to return to the mainstream. Madam Ho appealed to the employers and colleagues of the 12 not to panic.
"Oh, come now! Don't panic! I mean, they're krazed killers, and all, and they wanted to overthrow the state and institute a caliphate and shariah law, where people get their heads and arms cut off and women are breeding stock, but... Argh!"
She urged the ministry to help ease their fears by explaining fully the process of their monitoring and counselling.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/15/2004 12:17:08 AM ||
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#1
Good thing they were only terrorist wannabes. If they had forgotten to flush the loo or were chewing gum, the Singaporean authorities would have shown no mercy whatsoever.
#2
Good thing they were only terrorist wannabes. If they had forgotten to flush the loo or were chewing gum, the Singaporean authorities would have shown no mercy whatsoever.
THE Government said it had arrested and detained seven Singaporeans between October 2002 and December last year - three more than the number previously made public - for involvement in terrorist-related activities. Among those whose names were released for the first time yesterday was Hosnay Awi, father-in-law of the Jemaah Islamiah bomb-maker Fathur Rohman Al-Ghozi who died in a shootout last year with the Philippine military. The other two fresh names were Alahuddeen Abdullah, who saw combat against the Philippine military; and Al-Qaeda sympathiser Faisel Abdullah Abdat.
The Home Affairs Ministry said long-time JI member Hosnay underwent operational training in 1999 with the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF), the group fighting for a separate state in Mindanao. After JI members were arrested here in 2001 and 2002, he fled to Indonesia and went into hiding. He was arrested by the Indonesian authorities while working in a shop owned by JI members. After serving a sentence for immigration offences, he was handed over to Singapore last November and was arrested and detained by the Internal Security Department (ISD).
As for Alahuddeen, he joined the MILF through his contacts with Husin Abdul Aziz, who is now under detention. He took an oath of allegiance to now-dead MILF leader Hashim Salamat around 1999 and spent two years and nine months as an MILF soldier and fought against the Philippines army. In November 2001, he sneaked into Indonesia. He then decided to return to Singapore and made a false report with the Singapore Embassy in Jakarta that his passport was stolen. Returning here the next month, he kept a low profile, but was arrested and detained in October 2002.
The ministry said Faisel was arrested and detained last February. Investigations showed he knowingly gave material support, between 1999 and January 2002, to an Al-Qaeda collaborator - a foreigner of Yemeni origin involved in obtaining illegal documents. While he was not directly involved in the collaboratorâs activities, he was aware of his Al-Qaeda links. Faisel was released in October last year, but remains under a Restriction Order.
In an acknowledgement that different degrees of involvement with militancy merit different punishments, the Government named 12 Singaporeans with terrorist links yesterday but went on to give them a relatively light rap on the knuckles. Instead of detaining them under the Internal Security Act â a fate suffered by 37 suspected terrorists over the past two years â the authorities decided to merely place them under Restriction Orders (ROs). They will be free to go about their daily lives and hold a job.
As long as it's not a job as a prayer leader, or teaching at your friendly neighborhood madrassah...
Even their employers have not been alerted to their identities, since these men were only on the periphery of the plots or had dropped out of the outfits altogether. However, these men will not be able to change jobs or addresses without informing the authorities and cannot leave the country without permission. A new condition has also been added to their ROs â religious counselling â that reflects Singaporeâs intent to reform the people who once went astray, instead of uniformly detaining everyone who was part of Jemaah Islamiyah (JI) or its associate, the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (Milf).
Starting to look at MILF a little more clearly, are we? At least in Singapore...
Home Affairs Minister Wong Kan Seng described this as âa calibrated and graduated approachâ.
"It's an alternative to being severely beaten with a stick and then cleaning toilets in jug for 20 years. Most people seem to find it the more pleasant alternative..."
âWe will not hesitate to use the ISA to defend and protect the security of Singapore and Singaporeans. But we do not invoke such powers lightly. In other words, the Government does not use the ISA to simply detain people unnecessarily,â he told reporters yesterday. âWith religious counselling, we hope that they will understand the kind of teaching they had received in the past was the wrong one and the counsellors, comprising the religious teachers, will be able to put them right.â
I think any religious counseling should lead them directly to a path of agnosticism, myself, but I may be prejudiced in the matter. Or they could be converted to 7th Day Unitarianism, and sent out knocking on doors for no particular reason...
The lighter riposte to the latest group also underscores how the counter-terror measures have proceeded along different phases. The first batch of detainees consisted of ring-leaders. The next batch were the foot soldiers. As the operation reaches the mopping up stage, the men now facing scrutiny were largely on the fringes of the plot. The background, education level and the types of jobs they held were ânot much differentâ from those of the earlier detainees, said Mr Wong.
"Petty thieves, pimps, shakedown artists, the usual..."
The only difference lay in the degree of involvement. For example, the 10 JI members now facing ROs had attended physical training exercises in Malaysia and even learnt to make fire-bombs. Three of them â Mohd Ashikin Mohd Yusof, Abu Bakar Sedek Hashim and Mohammed Hashim â were also tasked with looking for a warehouse where lorries could be parked, rigged into a truck bomb and then aimed at targets in Singapore. They made little headway and it is understood that they did not even know why they were being asked to look for a warehouse.
"Duh... Why we lookin' for a warehouse, Mohd?"
"Duh... I dunno, Abu."
Some of the others had helped conduct JI camps for children, perhaps without realising that future JI operatives were being talent-spotted there.
"Mohammed! That little brat with the orange turban just beat up all the other kids in his cabin!"
"Sign him up, Mohd!"
As if to illustrate how these pawns could unwittingly be used in plots more chilling than they imagined, JI trainer Arifin Ali â now under ISA detention â used a bus ride to one such camp to take video footage of the area where American military personnel lived. This was later incorporated as part of the video targeting the Yishun MRT shuttle bus service and passed on to an Al Qaeda military commander.
"Yup. Yup. We're goin' to Mindanao, yup! Yup! An' we're gonna kill infidels, yup! Yup! An' we're gonna get kilt, yup! Yup! An' we're gonna have senny-two virgins, yup! Yup!"
But that is in the past.
"[Sigh.] Mohd, I miss the good old days!"
"Oh, shuddup. You wanna be beat with a stick again?"
More pertinently, the investigators have managed to get their men without causing undue public alarm or affecting communal relations. âTherefore, this investigation has been done discreetly over the last one-and-a-half years,â said Mr Wong. But Singapore is far from relenting in its tough fight against terrorism. For one, the Orders of Detention against the 13 JI members who were arrested in December 2001 were extended recently for another two years, after a review by the ISA advisory board. Explaining the extension, Mr Wong said: âThey continue to pose a threat to us and therefore they have to be detained.â
"We intend to keep them in the calaboose until they're no longer a danger to society."
"When's that gonna be?"
"Either when they reach 400 pounds or they're 88 years old."
Nor is the battle over. âThat is because there are extremist religious groups in the region that continue to train people for such activities and they also send them for training in training camps. So, weâre not out of the woods and weâll not be out of the woods for a long time,â said Mr Wong.
EFL - the Scotsman
Israel is expected to resume targeted killings of senior Hamas militants, a security official says, after a Palestinian suicide attacker blew herself up at a Gaza crossing, killing four Israelis. Whutta surprise - cause/effect lessons starting up again. Yassin first, please
Top army commanders met at the Defence Ministry yesterday to consider a response. I vote for a violent one.
After high-profile, but ineffective, attacks against Palestinian leaders in the summer â bombing a house where the entire Hamas leadership was meeting and a helicopter strike aimed at the top Hamas spokesman â Israel had scaled back its attacks in concert with a significant drop in Hamas bombings. worked for a while, hope they got the intel on where these assholes hide out now
However, there was never evidence of even an unspoken agreement between the two enemies. Israel insisted that the downturn was attributable to its own security forces, claiming that they arrested as many as 30 potential suicide bombers. For their part, Hamas leaders, though often in hiding to avoid Israeli strikes, kept up their blustervitriolspew militant pronouncements and rebuffed efforts by Palestinian prime minister Ahmed Qureia and Egyptian mediators to declare a halt to attacks against Israelis. The suicide bombing on Wednesday put an end to the âso-called quiet periodâ, said the Israeli air force commander, Maj Gen Dan Halutz. expect booms on the other side as well, now
Halutz denied that the reduction in targeted killings was linked to a slowdown in Palestinian attacks. âSince it is a preventive measure, it has nothing to do with the number of casualties that we have,â he told a meeting of the Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs yesterday. Air force helicopters launching missiles have been used in most of the targeted killings, which Palestinians say is assassination of their terrorist killer leaders. Without giving details, Halutz said the air force and military intelligence have developed âpinpointâ methods to âhit only those who deserve itâ. However, dozens of bystanders have been killed in air strikes in towns, cities and refugee camps. Wednesdayâs attack at the Erez border crossing between Israel and Gaza was the first time the Hamas sent a female suicide bomber, and the group threatened more violence. Thousands marched through Gaza City during the funeral of Reem Raiyshi, 22, a mother of two small children. Masked gunmen carried her coffin, draped in the green Hamas flag. Bury the bitch in bacon
âIt is not enough to call her a hero. Calling her hero does not give the whole truth. This woman abandoned her husband and children in order to win paradise,â a Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar, said in a eulogy. She was a Shero!
The Israeli security official said the Hamas spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, issued a religious edict permitting women to carry out bombings, something Hamas resisted in the past, and that he personally approved Wednesdayâs attack.
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/15/2004 8:20:56 PM ||
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#1
Israel needs to put out on public notice that Hamas leaders will be targeted. The Palestinians need to know that it will be hazardous to life and limb to be around Hamas leaders, as they will be targets at any time. Also, funerals and funeral processions with Hamas leaders escorting fallen comrades are subject to attack.
In addition, religious clerics with documented public pronouncements for suicide bombing and other type attacks on Israel will be dealt with in the same manner as Hamas leaders.
Israel needs to take the gloves off. Only by treating these Hamas leaders like the plague will Israel be able to stop this plague of death. The sooner it stops, the better off Israel AND the Palestinians will be.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
01/15/2004 20:40 Comments ||
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#2
and that he personally approved Wednesdayâs attack.
Then he should personally die...
Also, funerals and funeral processions with Hamas leaders escorting fallen comrades are subject to attack.
I've always wondered why this has never been done. Begin bombing in five minutes!
#3
Israel is expected to resume targeted killings of senior Hamas militants, a security official says, after a Palestinian suicide attacker blew herself up at a Gaza crossing, killing four Israelis.
Don't see the point in having stopped targeting senior Hamas members to begin with. Sooner or later, someone from the West Bank or Gaza would inevitably end up killing, or trying to kill, more Israelis.
#4
âIt is not enough to call her a hero. Calling her hero does not give the whole truth. This woman abandoned her husband and children in order to win paradise,â
Sounds like the husband may have been to lazy or 'islamic' (read: Holy) to provide for his family so the mother had to sacrifice her life so they would have a chance with the money they would get.
#5
Israel needs to put out on public notice that Hamas leaders will be targeted. The Palestinians need to know that it will be hazardous to life and limb to be around Hamas leaders, as they will be targets at any time. Also, funerals and funeral processions with Hamas leaders escorting fallen comrades are subject to attack.
In addition, religious clerics with documented public pronouncements for suicide bombing and other type attacks on Israel will be dealt with in the same manner as Hamas leaders.
Israel needs to take the gloves off. Only by treating these Hamas leaders like the plague will Israel be able to stop this plague of death. The sooner it stops, the better off Israel AND the Palestinians will be.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
01/15/2004 20:40 Comments ||
Top||
#6
and that he personally approved Wednesdayâs attack.
Then he should personally die...
Also, funerals and funeral processions with Hamas leaders escorting fallen comrades are subject to attack.
I've always wondered why this has never been done. Begin bombing in five minutes!
#7
Israel is expected to resume targeted killings of senior Hamas militants, a security official says, after a Palestinian suicide attacker blew herself up at a Gaza crossing, killing four Israelis.
Don't see the point in having stopped targeting senior Hamas members to begin with. Sooner or later, someone from the West Bank or Gaza would inevitably end up killing, or trying to kill, more Israelis.
#8
âIt is not enough to call her a hero. Calling her hero does not give the whole truth. This woman abandoned her husband and children in order to win paradise,â
Sounds like the husband may have been to lazy or 'islamic' (read: Holy) to provide for his family so the mother had to sacrifice her life so they would have a chance with the money they would get.
EFL
New York City Mayor and lifelong Democrat Ed Koch was a guest last night on CNBC's Capital Report. Host Gloria Borger asked Koch about his recent endorsement of President Bush's re-election campaign...
Mr. KOCH: And I am, but I'm also, and always described myself as, a liberal with sanity. And while most of the people that I will be voting for will be Democrats, I have in the past crossed party lines when I thought it was in the interest of the city or the country. And I have no doubt but that, as it relates to the president--and I've never voted for a Republican president, only a Democratic president--I am voting for Bush because the Democrats don't have the stomach to take on the number-one issue, which is international terrorism. And George Bush, with his Bush doctrine that we will go after the terrorists and the countries that harbor them--he has convinced me and I think millions more Democrats that he's the one that we should put our trust in.
#2
Koch's support for Bush is not new: he's made a number of public statements like this before.
Koch can say that he's "a liberal with sanity", but I think it's more accurate to say he's a remnant of the "old" Democratic Party, the Democratic Party that used to think of Republicans as the opposition- not the "enemy".
There's a big difference, and that difference is even more vital when the nation's security is at stake. And that's why, after 31 years as a Democrat, I became a Republican a year ago: today's Democrats cannot be entrusted with our lives and futures.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
01/15/2004 20:04 Comments ||
Top||
#3
Dave, I'm with you. I've been a Democrat for 45 years (gulp) and never, ever voted Republican. I'm now GOP. 9/11, Bush's handling of it, the Democrats horrific behavior since, all have convinced me. They aren't serious about the existential threat facing us. Until they become so, I'll not vote for a Dem again.
Posted by: R. McLeod ||
01/15/2004 20:16 Comments ||
Top||
#4
My vote for Bush in 2004 will be my first vote for a Republican president. I voted for the Libertarian Browne in 2000 as a protest because, even as a Democrat, I never could stand Al Gore. What he did to Dukakis (Willie Horton) and Bradley (NJ racial profiling) were disgusting and I was/am so relieved that Gore wasn't president on 9/11.
#5
Dave D., did you see my reply to your question yesterday about the Captain who lost a leg in Viet Nam and continued to serve? Could it be Frederick M. Franks Gen US Army (Ret)
#7
Koch's support for Bush is not new: he's made a number of public statements like this before.
Koch can say that he's "a liberal with sanity", but I think it's more accurate to say he's a remnant of the "old" Democratic Party, the Democratic Party that used to think of Republicans as the opposition- not the "enemy".
There's a big difference, and that difference is even more vital when the nation's security is at stake. And that's why, after 31 years as a Democrat, I became a Republican a year ago: today's Democrats cannot be entrusted with our lives and futures.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
01/15/2004 20:04 Comments ||
Top||
#8
Dave, I'm with you. I've been a Democrat for 45 years (gulp) and never, ever voted Republican. I'm now GOP. 9/11, Bush's handling of it, the Democrats horrific behavior since, all have convinced me. They aren't serious about the existential threat facing us. Until they become so, I'll not vote for a Dem again.
Posted by: R. McLeod ||
01/15/2004 20:16 Comments ||
Top||
#9
My vote for Bush in 2004 will be my first vote for a Republican president. I voted for the Libertarian Browne in 2000 as a protest because, even as a Democrat, I never could stand Al Gore. What he did to Dukakis (Willie Horton) and Bradley (NJ racial profiling) were disgusting and I was/am so relieved that Gore wasn't president on 9/11.
#10
Dave D., did you see my reply to your question yesterday about the Captain who lost a leg in Viet Nam and continued to serve? Could it be Frederick M. Franks Gen US Army (Ret)
An indictment unsealed Thursday charges a Dearborn man with conspiracy to provide material support to Hezbollah. The indictment accuses Mahmoud Youssef Kourani of being a member, fighter, recruiter and fund-raiser for Hezbollah who operated in Lebanon and later within the United States. Moved right up the food chain to cup-rattler.
The 32-year-old is accused of conspiring with his brother, the Hezbollah chief of military security for southern Lebanon, to provide military support for the group. The U.S. attorneyâs office said Kouraniâs brother, whose name was not included in the indictment, is an unindicted co-conspirator. "Weâll get to him sooner or later"
According to the indictment, Kourani entered the United States illegally through Mexico in February 2001, took up residence in the Detroit area and hid his Muslim identity by not attending mosques and shaving his beard. Mexico, huh? Paging President Fox, call for you... line one.
U.S. Attorney Jeffrey Collins said Kourani raised "a substantial sum" and offered other support to Hezbollah. Kouraniâs brother monitored his activities while he lived in Michigan, Collins said. Making sure he wasnât having too much fun on Hezbollahâs dime.
"The message we send today is clear: Anyone who provides money to Hezbollah or any other terrorist organization will face the full wrath of a vigorous federal prosecution," Collins said. Been a lot of folk tossed in the Grey Bar Hotel lately.
Kourani was to appear for a federal court arraignment later Thursday. He faces a maximum penalty of 15 years in prison if convicted. He has been in custody awaiting deportation since his conviction last year in a separate case for harboring an illegal alien, said Gina Balaya, spokeswoman for the U.S. attorneyâs office in Detroit. "Mahmoud, Iâve got some good news and some bad news for you."
"Whatâs the bad news?"
"Weâre not sending you home to Lebanon."
"Whatâs the good news?"
"Weâre not sending you home to Lebanon."
Another Dearborn man with reported ties to Hezbollah was sentenced last week to 70 months in prison without the possibility of parole. Elias Mohamad Akhdar, 31, pleaded guilty in July to a charge of conspiring to violate the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. RICO, itâs not just for Don Vito anymore.
The government argued in court documents that Akhdar and Hassan M. Makki, 42, of Dearborn, tried to transfer hundreds of thousands of dollars to Hezbollah. Akhdar and Makki were among 11 suspects - nine Detroit-area men and two women living on an Indian reservation in New York - arrested after an indictment was unsealed Feb. 4. Makki, who was sentenced in December to four years and nine months in the slammer prison, acknowledged providing more than $2,000 to Hezbollah after it had been designated a foreign terrorist organization by the U.S. State Department. Hummmmm, hundreds of thousands is more than $2000.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 2:14:06 PM ||
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Link ||
[0 views]
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#1
Mexico, huh? Paging President Fox, call for you...line one.
Whadda bout President Bush?
Making sure he wasnât having too much fun on Hezbollahâs dime.
Some nice gentleman's clubs up there. Would have been a shame if the splodeydope money got blown on strippers.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 14:21 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Whadda bout President Bush?
He's making the call reminding Foxy that it would be a shame if that immigration bill got hung up in Congress.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 14:58 Comments ||
Top||
#3
According to the indictment, Kourani entered the United States illegally through Mexico in February 2001, took up residence in the Detroit area and hid his Muslim identity by not attending mosques and shaving his beard.
This should be printed in nice, bold, italic lettering in ANY future future opinion pieces arguing against the president's amnesty plan.
This is ONE KNOWN INSTANCE of really shady people sneaking into the U.S. via Mexico. Now imagine that other individuals, quite possibly more dangerous than Kourani, made it across the same way and are moving about amongst the general population, a very likely possibility. Concerned? If not, you should be.
#5
Mexico, huh? Paging President Fox, call for you...line one.
Whadda bout President Bush?
Making sure he wasnât having too much fun on Hezbollahâs dime.
Some nice gentleman's clubs up there. Would have been a shame if the splodeydope money got blown on strippers.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 14:21 Comments ||
Top||
#6
Whadda bout President Bush?
He's making the call reminding Foxy that it would be a shame if that immigration bill got hung up in Congress.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 14:58 Comments ||
Top||
#7
According to the indictment, Kourani entered the United States illegally through Mexico in February 2001, took up residence in the Detroit area and hid his Muslim identity by not attending mosques and shaving his beard.
This should be printed in nice, bold, italic lettering in ANY future future opinion pieces arguing against the president's amnesty plan.
This is ONE KNOWN INSTANCE of really shady people sneaking into the U.S. via Mexico. Now imagine that other individuals, quite possibly more dangerous than Kourani, made it across the same way and are moving about amongst the general population, a very likely possibility. Concerned? If not, you should be.
From Drudge Report:
Two months ago Democratic hopeful Wesley Clark declared in a debate that he has always been firmly against the current Iraq War. "Iâve been very consistent... Iâve been against this war from the beginning," the former general said in Detroit on October 26. "I was against it last summer, I was against it in the fall, I was against it in the winter, I was against it in the spring. And Iâm against it now." Guess you must have forgotten this, Wes:
Less than 18 months ago, Wesley Clark offered his testimony before the Committee On Armed Services at the U.S. House Of Representatives.
"Thereâs no requirement to have any doctrine here. I mean this is simply a longstanding right of the United States and other nations to take the actions they deem necessary in their self defense," Clark told Congress on September 26, 2002. "Every president has deployed forces as necessary to take action. Heâs done so without multilateral support if necessary. Heâs done so in advance of conflict if necessary. In my experience, I was the commander of the European forces in NATO. When we took action in Kosovo, we did not have United Nations approval to do this and we did so in a way that was designed to preempt Serb ethnic cleansing and regional destabilization there. There were some people who didnâ t agree with that decision. The United Nations was not able to agree to support it with a resolution." Clark continued: "Thereâs no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. Heâs had those for a long time. But the United States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we were before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesnât have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we."
More Clark: "And, I want to underscore that I think the United States should not categorize this action as preemptive. Preemptive and that doctrine has nothing whatsoever to do with this problem. As Richard Perle so eloquently pointed out, this is a problem thatâs longstanding. Itâs been a decade in the making. It needs to be dealt with and the clock is ticking on this." Clark explained: "I think thereâs no question that, even though we may not have the evidence as Richard [Perle] says, that there have been such contacts [between Iraq and al Qaeda]. Itâs normal. Itâs natural. These are a lot of bad actors in the same region together. They are going to bump into each other. They are going to exchange information. Theyâre going to feel each other up out and see whether there are opportunities to cooperate. Thatâs inevitable in this region, and I think itâs clear that regardless of whether or not such evidence is produced of these connections that Saddam Hussein is a threat."
Say goodbye, Wes.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 12:24:16 PM ||
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Link ||
[1 views]
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#1
Amazing how much sense Wesley Clark made before he became a Democrat, isn't it?
Posted by: Dave D. ||
01/15/2004 12:38 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Unfortunately, I don't think this will make any difference. It seems that the Democratic party doesn't care if their candidate is a lying dirtbag. In many ways, it seems they PREFER a lying dirtbag as their candidate. I just hope the people of this nation are well enough informed to know that voting for ANY Democrat will be a vote in support of continuing government by lying dirtbags and their followers.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 12:44 Comments ||
Top||
#3
I hope enough good Americans find out about this fraudster called Wes Weasel.how this clown,no jester can think he can pull these stunts is beyond meHe's such a meddaling fuck wit,send him to Gauntanamo Bay and have done with him.
#4
No doubt the response will be that he "grew" out of his old opinions.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 13:42 Comments ||
Top||
#5
I hope enough good Americans find out about this fraudster called Wes Weasel.how this clown,no jester can think he can pull these stunts is beyond meHe's such a meddaling fuck wit,send him to Gauntanamo Bay and have done with him.
I think the old Wesley Clark is the real Wesley Clark. Of all the Democratic candidates, Clark, Gephardt and Lieberman are the only three I would feel comfortable with. Clark is just trying to rope in some support during the primaries, when the loony left tends to dominate the proceedings. If he becomes the Democratic nominee, he can just as easily move to the right - given his record as a decorated war veteran, no one can characterize him as a chickenhawk. (Not that this means I'll vote for him, of course). Clinton is right in sizing him up as the most credible alternative to Howard Dean - Clark is certainly more electable than Dean.
I don't know the whole story but there are claims coming that Drudge or someone took selective quotes or even added a sentence or two that were not in the original transcript.
If so, that is the dirtiest of tricks. I despise Wes Clark and what he stands for (i.e. Kosovo = good / Iraq = disaster). But selective quotation is the lowest form of mudslinging. Bush and his administration of often targets of such attacks and it sucks.
Wait and see if this story is real before endorsing it. If it is indeed what Clark was saying. Than shame on him.
Posted by: Tokyo Taro ||
01/15/2004 23:11 Comments ||
Top||
#7
Amazing how much sense Wesley Clark made before he became a Democrat, isn't it?
Posted by: Dave D. ||
01/15/2004 12:38 Comments ||
Top||
#8
Unfortunately, I don't think this will make any difference. It seems that the Democratic party doesn't care if their candidate is a lying dirtbag. In many ways, it seems they PREFER a lying dirtbag as their candidate. I just hope the people of this nation are well enough informed to know that voting for ANY Democrat will be a vote in support of continuing government by lying dirtbags and their followers.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 12:44 Comments ||
Top||
#9
I hope enough good Americans find out about this fraudster called Wes Weasel.how this clown,no jester can think he can pull these stunts is beyond meHe's such a meddaling fuck wit,send him to Gauntanamo Bay and have done with him.
#10
No doubt the response will be that he "grew" out of his old opinions.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 13:42 Comments ||
Top||
#11
I hope enough good Americans find out about this fraudster called Wes Weasel.how this clown,no jester can think he can pull these stunts is beyond meHe's such a meddaling fuck wit,send him to Gauntanamo Bay and have done with him.
I think the old Wesley Clark is the real Wesley Clark. Of all the Democratic candidates, Clark, Gephardt and Lieberman are the only three I would feel comfortable with. Clark is just trying to rope in some support during the primaries, when the loony left tends to dominate the proceedings. If he becomes the Democratic nominee, he can just as easily move to the right - given his record as a decorated war veteran, no one can characterize him as a chickenhawk. (Not that this means I'll vote for him, of course). Clinton is right in sizing him up as the most credible alternative to Howard Dean - Clark is certainly more electable than Dean.
I don't know the whole story but there are claims coming that Drudge or someone took selective quotes or even added a sentence or two that were not in the original transcript.
If so, that is the dirtiest of tricks. I despise Wes Clark and what he stands for (i.e. Kosovo = good / Iraq = disaster). But selective quotation is the lowest form of mudslinging. Bush and his administration of often targets of such attacks and it sucks.
Wait and see if this story is real before endorsing it. If it is indeed what Clark was saying. Than shame on him.
Posted by: Tokyo Taro ||
01/15/2004 23:11 Comments ||
Top||
New York Speech Sponsored by MoveOn.org & Environment2004
Former Vice President Al Gore will deliver a major address attacking the Bush Administrationâs policies on global warming and the environment at the historic Beacon Theatre in New York City on Thursday, January 15.
Severe Weather Alert from the National Weather Service
...BRONX NY-KINGS (BROOKLYN) NY-NEW YORK (MANHATTAN) NY-QUEENS NY- RICHMOND (STATEN IS.) NY- 659 AM EST THU JAN 15 2004
TEMPERATURES AROUND 10 DEGREES EARLY THIS MORNING COMBINED WITH WINDS ABOUT 15 MILES AN HOUR WERE PRODUCING WIND CHILL VALUES FROM NEAR ZERO TO 10 BELOW. TEMPERATURES WILL REMAIN NEARLY STEADY... HOWEVER WINDS WILL INCREASE FROM THE NORTH... LOWERING WIND CHILL VALUES TO AROUND 15 BELOW BY EARLY THIS EVENING. A WIND CHILL WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT FOR TONIGHT... WHEN CHILL VALUES WILL APPROACH AS MUCH AS 30 BELOW.
Mr. Gore will issue an indictment of the Bush administrationâs inaction on global warming, linking the issue to U.S. national security. He will show that global warming is happening right now, and yet the President is choosing to help his coal- and oil-company supporters rather than advance modern technologies that can affordably solve this critical problem. Yeah, like that windfarm off Cape Cod Bush squashed. Oh, wait, that was Ted Kennedy and the other libs who didnât want their views of the ocean spoiled.
The speech will also explore the administrationâs deliberate attempts to mislead the public as it attacks basic environmental laws and protection. This is a free event, but attendance is open only to members of MoveOn.org and Environment2004 who have RSVPâd, and to credentialed journalists. Guess it all depends on your definition of "open". Itâs another AlGore moment.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 10:04:25 AM ||
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Link ||
[0 views]
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#1
Yeah, like that windfarm off Cape Cod Bush squashed. Oh, wait, that was Ted Kennedy and the other libs who didnât want their views of the ocean spoiled.
#2
Mr. Gore seems to forget that it was the Clinton/Gore administration that championed the Kyoto Protocol for years and got nowhere with it. Bush was a mere governor at the time. And what are these "affordable technologies"? Last time I looked, hydroelectric opportunities were used up and solar, wind, etc. were VERY expensive ($ per kilowatt-hour) compared to coal -- even with major clean-up of coal emissions. Mr. Gore is an over-priced wind farm wherever he goes.
Posted by: Tom ||
01/15/2004 10:29 Comments ||
Top||
Mr. Gore is an over-priced wind farm wherever he goes.
Can't top that! LOL
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
01/15/2004 10:42 Comments ||
Top||
#5
I read the headline and wondered if Gore was going to be arrested for indecent exposure.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 10:44 Comments ||
Top||
#6
sad septics who produce the majority of greenhouse gasses use most of the worlds resources produce most of the waste weigh the most cos they are all fat bastards sign the kyoto agreement Think why does most of the world intensly dislike or actively hate the septics with their greed and corruption be nice and we may start liking you
Posted by: luke ||
01/15/2004 10:46 Comments ||
Top||
#7
Wow. Al "Al" Gore to attack Republican president on environmental grounds. What a mind blower.
In other breaking news, the sun rose in the East, and my dog is furry.
#8
luke..is it a translation thing? If so, well, your english is better than my whatever.
If not, do you really think we will make the effort with an entire blogosphere waiting to be read?
Posted by: B ||
01/15/2004 11:02 Comments ||
Top||
#9
Just the title made me laugh.
Posted by: B ||
01/15/2004 11:02 Comments ||
Top||
#10
It is sad that a former VP would get involved with an organization like Moveon which uses hate speech. On the other hand, its sad a pseudointellectual like Gore ever became VP.
#11
Timing is everything, Al. Come back in August to hold your open Global Warming forum. ('Open', another relative term.)
And as far as moveon.org is concerned, how I wish they WOULD move on... and join the Spirit rover.
#14
The entire house of cards known as "Global Warming" has been exposed to be a monster scam that attempted to totally criple the US economy, while giving the third world a "pass". According to TechCentralStation, even Europe has been unable (or unwilling) to meet the reductions in greenhouse gasses prescribed by Kyoto. Every day, additional scientific research shows just how totally out of whack the computer model used to "predict" global warming is when measured against actual hard data.
The evidence is mounting that the total current amount of actual warming can be accounted for by the increase in solar output over the past 20 years. There's corroberating evidence of "global warming" on Mars and Pluto. I have my doubts that Mr. Bush or anyone else is operating coal-fired generating plants on either of these planetary bodies.
The entire "global warming" tirade is a farce, not scientifically supported by hard evidence. It's time for "Gloomy Al One-Note" to shut his pie hole and fade off into the sunset.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 11:59 Comments ||
Top||
#15
be nice and we may start liking you
You seem to have mistaken me for someone who cares WHAT you think. or feel. Or do - so long as it doesn't impose on my life or my freedoms. If it does, I'll change that fact and then move on.
Posted by: not impressed ||
01/15/2004 12:08 Comments ||
Top||
#16
Normally, I'd be all in favor of exposed bush, but in this instance, Gore's got very little credibility. His "Earth in the Balance" was a lot of junk science (like much of the global warming rhetoric) -- especially the new agish Gaia Hypothesis. He should stick to things he knows, like the Internet.
Posted by: Tibor ||
01/15/2004 12:30 Comments ||
Top||
#17
I really hope there's some footage of everyone huddled in their parkas, their breath coming out in frosty clouds, listening to his address.
#18
Kyotos dead thankfully! Australia finally pulled out a couple of days ago and Russia is not going to ratify. OPs right! It was a Tranzi scam pure and simple! Bad science and even worse economics.
#19
Hi Luke! Gonna hit the fields this afternoon right before dusk.... comeon on by I have an extra shotgun and my goldies don't mind hunting with half-wits, BTW folks Mr. Faisal was a little to loud in the field but he had a nice taxi.
#20
sad septics who produce the majority of greenhouse gasses use most of the worlds resources produce most of the waste weigh the most cos they are all fat bastards sign the kyoto agreement Think why does most of the world intensly dislike or actively hate the septics with their greed and corruption be nice and we may start liking you
Sounds suspiciously like a really bad case of jealousy.
#21
Luke, the US also creates the majority of the worlds stuff. If the world stopped buying it the problem of US overconsumption would solve itself.
Gore can make his claims and Bush can counter with his new space plan. Helium 3 from the moon promises clean FUSION energy. Solar power on the moon could mean clean power as well. Potentially Bush is doing far more towards solving global warming if we really exploit the moon than Gore ever dreamed of. Perhaps Gore's comments can be used to up the NASA funding for the moon base.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/15/2004 13:58 Comments ||
Top||
#24
ooooh Luke says I'm not liked...I'm soo hurt. I'm going to need therapy for years now, maybe I can blame Gore for my therapy needs cuz Luke says I'm not liked because I didn't support Kyoto and and and and....
Posted by: Val ||
01/15/2004 14:27 Comments ||
Top||
#25
Dammit Luke you find Pepe and get your ass back to work. Sorry folks... Kate cut Luke off last week and he's hammering down Colt again.
#28
Luke writes like that lil stinker Stevie...mayhaps a pseudonym. Begone troll, back to your momma.
Posted by: remote man ||
01/15/2004 17:40 Comments ||
Top||
#29
luke - do we have a european murat -
how long are the eurotrash going to keep whinning!
since they cant't beat us at anything (except of of couse the award for lapdog's of the year) they whine about everything american. but at the end of the day their societies could not function in the modern world without direct american intervention.
hell they can't even build a plane without american technology (roughly 35-40 percent of every airtrash is american through sub-contracting).
Posted by: Dan ||
01/15/2004 18:12 Comments ||
Top||
#30
Luke, why would we want a mob of backward-ass Drunkistan bigots to like us?
I hate to blaspheme the one true god of the Drunkistan Left, but Michael Moore is not a typical American and he is not infallible.
I suggest you quit kissing his fat arse and sucking up to Hollywood and return to your traditional national pursuits of drinking, gambling and beating each other senseless.
#31
BTW, for those of you who may not be up on the Australian vernacular, "septic" and "seppo" are the standard epithets for Americans.
What would you expect from a country that still has "Nigger Mountain" on the map?
#33
Well sad to say, Me and my bud Luke didn't have much luck, 2 quail, and 1 rabbit. The rabbit took a rather deep interest in Luke's leg, kinda freaked the old boy right out. Then on the way back to the house Luke tripped over the methane exhaust, got a bad ankle there, but I expect he'll be ok once we pry Fatwa the crazed kitten off his foot. See ya later Luke, remember you're taxi's safe with me and TMH takes cash.
#34
Timing is everything, Al. Yours sucks as usual. When it's freezer burn cold, it's not the time we little people want to hear the Whiny Global Warming Chorus. I don't get driven in a limo to work, Al, like some people. I freeze my ass off waiting for the train. You're supposed to be a smart guy Al. You ought to know that Al. Maybe you aren't as smart as you think, huh, Al?
But maybe I'm just a septic.
Yeah, like that windfarm off Cape Cod Bush squashed. Oh, wait, that was Ted Kennedy and the other libs who didnât want their views of the ocean spoiled.
#36
Mr. Gore seems to forget that it was the Clinton/Gore administration that championed the Kyoto Protocol for years and got nowhere with it. Bush was a mere governor at the time. And what are these "affordable technologies"? Last time I looked, hydroelectric opportunities were used up and solar, wind, etc. were VERY expensive ($ per kilowatt-hour) compared to coal -- even with major clean-up of coal emissions. Mr. Gore is an over-priced wind farm wherever he goes.
Posted by: Tom ||
01/15/2004 10:29 Comments ||
Top||
Mr. Gore is an over-priced wind farm wherever he goes.
Can't top that! LOL
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
01/15/2004 10:42 Comments ||
Top||
#39
I read the headline and wondered if Gore was going to be arrested for indecent exposure.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 10:44 Comments ||
Top||
#40
sad septics who produce the majority of greenhouse gasses use most of the worlds resources produce most of the waste weigh the most cos they are all fat bastards sign the kyoto agreement Think why does most of the world intensly dislike or actively hate the septics with their greed and corruption be nice and we may start liking you
Posted by: luke ||
01/15/2004 10:46 Comments ||
Top||
#41
Wow. Al "Al" Gore to attack Republican president on environmental grounds. What a mind blower.
In other breaking news, the sun rose in the East, and my dog is furry.
#42
luke..is it a translation thing? If so, well, your english is better than my whatever.
If not, do you really think we will make the effort with an entire blogosphere waiting to be read?
Posted by: B ||
01/15/2004 11:02 Comments ||
Top||
#43
Just the title made me laugh.
Posted by: B ||
01/15/2004 11:02 Comments ||
Top||
#44
It is sad that a former VP would get involved with an organization like Moveon which uses hate speech. On the other hand, its sad a pseudointellectual like Gore ever became VP.
#45
Timing is everything, Al. Come back in August to hold your open Global Warming forum. ('Open', another relative term.)
And as far as moveon.org is concerned, how I wish they WOULD move on... and join the Spirit rover.
#48
The entire house of cards known as "Global Warming" has been exposed to be a monster scam that attempted to totally criple the US economy, while giving the third world a "pass". According to TechCentralStation, even Europe has been unable (or unwilling) to meet the reductions in greenhouse gasses prescribed by Kyoto. Every day, additional scientific research shows just how totally out of whack the computer model used to "predict" global warming is when measured against actual hard data.
The evidence is mounting that the total current amount of actual warming can be accounted for by the increase in solar output over the past 20 years. There's corroberating evidence of "global warming" on Mars and Pluto. I have my doubts that Mr. Bush or anyone else is operating coal-fired generating plants on either of these planetary bodies.
The entire "global warming" tirade is a farce, not scientifically supported by hard evidence. It's time for "Gloomy Al One-Note" to shut his pie hole and fade off into the sunset.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 11:59 Comments ||
Top||
#49
be nice and we may start liking you
You seem to have mistaken me for someone who cares WHAT you think. or feel. Or do - so long as it doesn't impose on my life or my freedoms. If it does, I'll change that fact and then move on.
Posted by: not impressed ||
01/15/2004 12:08 Comments ||
Top||
#50
Normally, I'd be all in favor of exposed bush, but in this instance, Gore's got very little credibility. His "Earth in the Balance" was a lot of junk science (like much of the global warming rhetoric) -- especially the new agish Gaia Hypothesis. He should stick to things he knows, like the Internet.
Posted by: Tibor ||
01/15/2004 12:30 Comments ||
Top||
#51
I really hope there's some footage of everyone huddled in their parkas, their breath coming out in frosty clouds, listening to his address.
#52
Kyotos dead thankfully! Australia finally pulled out a couple of days ago and Russia is not going to ratify. OPs right! It was a Tranzi scam pure and simple! Bad science and even worse economics.
#53
Hi Luke! Gonna hit the fields this afternoon right before dusk.... comeon on by I have an extra shotgun and my goldies don't mind hunting with half-wits, BTW folks Mr. Faisal was a little to loud in the field but he had a nice taxi.
#54
sad septics who produce the majority of greenhouse gasses use most of the worlds resources produce most of the waste weigh the most cos they are all fat bastards sign the kyoto agreement Think why does most of the world intensly dislike or actively hate the septics with their greed and corruption be nice and we may start liking you
Sounds suspiciously like a really bad case of jealousy.
#55
Luke, the US also creates the majority of the worlds stuff. If the world stopped buying it the problem of US overconsumption would solve itself.
Gore can make his claims and Bush can counter with his new space plan. Helium 3 from the moon promises clean FUSION energy. Solar power on the moon could mean clean power as well. Potentially Bush is doing far more towards solving global warming if we really exploit the moon than Gore ever dreamed of. Perhaps Gore's comments can be used to up the NASA funding for the moon base.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/15/2004 13:58 Comments ||
Top||
#58
ooooh Luke says I'm not liked...I'm soo hurt. I'm going to need therapy for years now, maybe I can blame Gore for my therapy needs cuz Luke says I'm not liked because I didn't support Kyoto and and and and....
Posted by: Val ||
01/15/2004 14:27 Comments ||
Top||
#59
Dammit Luke you find Pepe and get your ass back to work. Sorry folks... Kate cut Luke off last week and he's hammering down Colt again.
#62
Luke writes like that lil stinker Stevie...mayhaps a pseudonym. Begone troll, back to your momma.
Posted by: remote man ||
01/15/2004 17:40 Comments ||
Top||
#63
luke - do we have a european murat -
how long are the eurotrash going to keep whinning!
since they cant't beat us at anything (except of of couse the award for lapdog's of the year) they whine about everything american. but at the end of the day their societies could not function in the modern world without direct american intervention.
hell they can't even build a plane without american technology (roughly 35-40 percent of every airtrash is american through sub-contracting).
Posted by: Dan ||
01/15/2004 18:12 Comments ||
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#64
Luke, why would we want a mob of backward-ass Drunkistan bigots to like us?
I hate to blaspheme the one true god of the Drunkistan Left, but Michael Moore is not a typical American and he is not infallible.
I suggest you quit kissing his fat arse and sucking up to Hollywood and return to your traditional national pursuits of drinking, gambling and beating each other senseless.
#65
BTW, for those of you who may not be up on the Australian vernacular, "septic" and "seppo" are the standard epithets for Americans.
What would you expect from a country that still has "Nigger Mountain" on the map?
#67
Well sad to say, Me and my bud Luke didn't have much luck, 2 quail, and 1 rabbit. The rabbit took a rather deep interest in Luke's leg, kinda freaked the old boy right out. Then on the way back to the house Luke tripped over the methane exhaust, got a bad ankle there, but I expect he'll be ok once we pry Fatwa the crazed kitten off his foot. See ya later Luke, remember you're taxi's safe with me and TMH takes cash.
#68
Timing is everything, Al. Yours sucks as usual. When it's freezer burn cold, it's not the time we little people want to hear the Whiny Global Warming Chorus. I don't get driven in a limo to work, Al, like some people. I freeze my ass off waiting for the train. You're supposed to be a smart guy Al. You ought to know that Al. Maybe you aren't as smart as you think, huh, Al?
But maybe I'm just a septic.
A Los Angeles lawyer who won a ruling that U.S. courts can decide if the indefinite detention at Guantanamo Bay of about 600 people was legal, filed a proposed $1.1 billion class action against the Bush administration Wednesday. Itâs like a BAD Austin Powers movie! I bet he has a mini-me. Stephen Yagman wants the lawsuit he filed in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles certified as a class-action for the suspected Taliban and al Qaeda detainees at the American Navy base in Cuba. What a great humanitarian, looking out for the little people.
Last month a three member panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled 2 to 1 that courts can hear petitions from the detainees. Another reason to disband that court!
The 9th Circuit panel criticized the Bush administration for denying the detainees access to an attorney. Enforcement of the ruling was put on hold pending a U.S. Supreme Court decision on a similar case. Yagman, in his current lawsuit, said that the appeals court meant that the detainees are U.S. ââinhabitantsââ and can sue the federal government for alleged violations of the Constitution or international treaties. Stephen Yagman represents EVERYTHING that is wrong with lawyers today. He has never met a gitmo detainee. He doesnât know anything about when, why, and how they were detained. Yet he can file a lawsuit on their behalf! Is he a humanitarian? An ACLU Lawyer? Nope this guy is working this angle on his own, which means he gets ALL the lawyer fees. If this were a lesser advanced society Mr. Yagman would be tarred/feathered and run out of town. But since I live in the Peoples Republic of California he is getting a shot at the big payoff. He and everyone of his ilk make me sick! Remember this crap the next time they (Politicians) say we donât need tort reform.
My Suggestions:
1) Lawyer Pays. If the case is thrown out or dismissed the lawyer pays ALL court costs.
2) Limit Scope of class action suits to actual people. No filing for someone on their behalf.
3) Limit Payouts and lawyer fees. No more $15M for spilling coffee on YOURSELF.
4) Begin a frivolous lawsuit review board. If a lawyer abuses the court system he is disbarred PERMANENTLY!
5) Make Ethics review for lawyers have some teeth. Disbar them if they are guilty.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge ||
01/15/2004 7:44:01 AM ||
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#5
This guy needs a hemp necktie. We should also extend the privilege to about half the current judges on the US 9th Circus Course of A squeal. When judges and lawyers take over the government, rights are discarded. It's time for that second revolution, begun by killing all the (bad) lawyers. That will include judges, too, since 99% of them are former lawyers.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 10:56 Comments ||
Top||
#6
Heavy sigh . . .
Disclaimer: I am one of those /sarcasm on/ nasty, blood-sucking trial attorneys /sarcasm off/. TRULY, THOUGH, I donât fault any of you for your reactions, because this suit has every appearance of being baseless, groundless, and substantially vexatious, but . . . please consider the following:
Our country is one of the very few that permits liberty, individualism, and dissent. It is the commitment to these kinds of constitutionally protected principles that has made this country great. Vigorously debated, competing views allow for the best views to prevail--and for the best views to be refined even further.
I realize that my profession (trial work), like any profession, has its fair share of nut-jobs, money-grubbers, and idiots--but the general concept of the courts, juries and lawyers is a good one (as recognized by the nationâs founders). I have lived in countries where the principles of the American judicial system had no play, and there was a proportional lack of liberty, individualism, and dissent. A strong judicial system that permits liberty, individualism, and dissent will always leave the door open for this kind of stuff, and other crazy law suits, BUT OVERBEARING ATTEMPTS TO ELIMINATE THE ABUSES WILL NECESSARILY HAVE THE CONSEQUENCE OF QUASHING LIBERTY, INDIVIDUALISM, AND DISSENT. Federal Rule 11 allows for punishment of this attorney if the Court finds he is abusing the system, but I really donât think we want a system that is abuse-proof--the trade-off in loss of access to the Courts is just not worth it.
Also, before you react too quickly to multi-million dollar verdicts, please consider that the collective wisdom of a jury (the right to which is found in the Bill of Rights) is fairly uncanny--multi-million dollar verdicts are extremely rare. Multi-million dollar verdicts tend to be awarded where a corporation has made a business decision to market a known, bad product--after the finance department has worked up numbers showing that the cost of paying off verdicts and settlements will be less than profits made off the product (e.g., the Pinto car bombs, the heart stopping Fen-Phen drug cocktail . . .) Also, yes, there are attorneys who make a bundle of money off of lawsuits--but, on average, doctors and business executives make more money than lawyers. Any of these professions have their high-rollers, their middle class, and those just scraping by, and for every law firm that âmakes it bigâ I bet 2 or 3 go out of business just trying to protect the rights of average, everyday Americans.
I hear you, and I commiserate. I know several lawyers that I consider "friends" - people close enough to me to ask favors of (but NOT legal ones), help out when they need it, and support when they're down. I've also had the gross misfortune of having to deal with quite a number of the OTHER kinds of lawyers.
As with any group, there are good and bad. Most groups are self-regulating: the rotten are pruned, and the better encouraged to take on even greater responsibility. That used to be the duty of the American Bar Association and several other legal groups. Unfortunately, the last fifty years has seen an explosion in the number of lawyers, and the virtual elimination of any internal regulation and explusion of bad fruit. There's a maxim of government that anything that is unregulated (by market forces, by imposed regulation, or by self-regulation) tends to expand, eventually over-running the boundaries of "acceptability". The legal profession made it there 30 years ago. If the legal profession will not or cannot regulate those within its midst that exceed the boundaries of acceptable behavior, the entire group will be painted with the same brush as those that act inappropriately. There's also a point where those outside the group get fed up enough that they no longer tolerate the group, or find a way to impose acceptability upon the group from without.
I don't doubt that you're one of those that act appropriately according to both the laws and social contract of this nation. I also know there are a large number of your associates that do not. Failure to self-correct the problem will result in a solution being imposed.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 13:14 Comments ||
Top||
#8
Are these people who stick up for these vermen in Gauntanamo really just driven by greed or is it something much sicker,its beyond me how people can stick up for these scum.I'm appalled.
#9
Federal Rule 11 allows for punishment of this attorney if the Court finds he is abusing the system, but I really donât think we want a system that is abuse-proof--the trade-off in loss of access to the Courts is just not worth it.
The question is, would it happen in this case? And I believe the answer is likely to be "no".
That's why I suggest this Yagman guy get a good beating. A distinction between scrupulous and unscrupulous is made and appropriate punishment administered in lieu of declaring that all lawyers are parasites. :)
#10
Cingold, These people held at gitmo are not U.S. citizen and the goverment is setting up a court system to provide them some sort of justice. If our President was the Hitler/Stalin/Tazmanian Devil that everyone paints him as these people would be pushing up daisies in Afghanistan. Funny thing the lawyers aren't clogging the courts with suits against France, Germany, Russia, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Syria, or Egypt. All of these countries should be co-defendants with respect to 9/11. Hell I bet they would settle out of court! No the Lawyers are SOLELY to blame for this and I think they should fix it. Disbar these idiots and censure Judges that dole out law from the bench. If it were up to me I would start with a clean slate.
#11
I don't blame you all for being upset with Yagman, and other shysters. Just, please, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Here in Colorado, the Colorado Supreme Court is fairly rigorous in disbarring attorneys that are questionable. The system isnât perfect, but will go into your personal life and remove you from the profession if it does not like what it sees (e.g., wife beaters, tax evasion, contracts broken unfairly, ect.) Also, the Colorado Supreme Court is even stricter about scrutinizing professional actions--even so, youâre probably right that just filing this Gauntanamo suit wonât get this California attorney disbarred. But, Yagman is likely to spend a fortune that wonât ever be paid back to him, and he will lose the suit. That is, he will get a financial beating, although (maybe) not a physical one. I havenât looked at Yagman's pleadings, but I suppose he has filed suit under 42 U.S.C. § 1983, the all purpose federal statute that permits suits for violations of state and federal laws and rights. To prevail Yagman would have to show that the âalleged bad actorâ (President, Official, ect.) knew or should have known that the actions in question violated federal laws or rights. The fact that the Gauntanamo thugs are not U.S. citizens severely limits the laws and rights in question. Moreover, the fact is that the U.S. Supreme Court is looking at these issues, and will (in all likelihood) issue a ruling that completely vindicates the Executive Branch (i.e., President, etc.). I know this bogus Gauntanamo suit is a pain, but Iâd rather have a system like this where suits like this can be filed. The bad suits will lose, and the system is kept in tune for those rare occasions where official government excess must be restrained (e.g., post-Civil War detentions, citizen internments, illegal search and seizure, etc. . . ) In my mind the Court's consideration of Yagman's bogus suit is comparable to the some 1,700 times planes have been scrambled to keep the nation safe, only to find out there was no problem. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and some bogus lawsuits . . .
After the week Iâve been having, itâs good to know I can (sometimes) still make some sense. About your (tongue in cheek/spit in mouth?) question, thereâs a corollary to the question âIf a tree falls in the forest, with no one around, does it make a sound?â It is, âIf an offense occurs, with no one to witness, is it a crime?â Old Yagman better hope he doesnât bump into the right kind of people in some back alley . . .
#14
Yagman is the same guy who sued LAPD for allowing one of the crooks in the big shootout down there to die. Unfortunately, he is just successful enough to get some bad rulings published. He should be made an example of. All lawyers should be civil servants. There should be no private practice. This would ensure that every person arrested would be assigned a lawyer to defend his/her rights immediately without reguard to their financial situation. I suspect that the money saved by everyone who was protected from frivolous lawsuits and excessive judgements would more than pay the cost of civil service salaries.
#15
All lawyers should be civil servants. There should be no private practice.
Arch: I understand your sentiments, but (obviously) donât much care for the solution. Of course, I am biased. Nonetheless, I think this is no different than taking any profession (say, medicine) and saying there should be no private practice (i.e., all doctors should be civil servants). The countries that have nationalized professions (like Canadian medical care) have destroyed what was best in those professions. I apologize for the Yagmans in my profession--but not for my profession. Most states, if not every state, have ways to deter or punish frivolous lawsuits and reign in excessive judgments. I must admit, I have not seen excessive judgments (although I often hear such complaints), even though this law firm has had multi-million dollar verdicts. The one case that comes to mind is a poor kid that is just a few shades short of brain dead, but with huge physical challenges, limitations and needs. He will live like that until he dies, which wonât be soon, (because of a doctor who didnât want to come down one floor in response to readings that were way off, and because of a nurse who didnât want to rock the boat by insisting that some doctor look at the clearly bad readings). The millions are largely the cost of these lifecare needs and related economic earning losses. Under Colorado law (because this was a medical malpractice case), the pain and suffering this kid will go through for a lifetime was limited to only $250,000. I am proud that this firm obtained relief for this family, who had become destitute, even though we couldn't keep the marriage from failing under the pressure.
#16
cingold, your point is well taken. One example excessive judgement would be the MacDonalds hot coffee issue. I am not saying that all large judgements are excessive, some certainly stand out. Apologies for people like Yagman do not help. The profession must take steps to police itself. Unfortunately, this type of lawyer, supported by the likes of the 9th Circuit, does a lot of damage to the credibility of our legal system. If, in fact, lawyers are the defenders of this system, they need to start defending it. Otherwise, they risk having the job taken away from them.
#17
Arch: I agree about internal policing of the profession. In fact, I hope some California lawyer files a grievance on olâ Mr. Yagman. However, that said, if I mess up (which, of course, I never do ;) ) I have an ethical obligation to tell my clients they can sue me--I donât know of another profession that is true of. My malpractice insurance protects my client from my mistakes, as it should be. If I were sued, my client would be protected from economic loss, and the Supreme Court would probably take my license (depending on the reasons). A large verdict doesnât necessarily mean the verdict is wrong. Regarding the MacDonalds case, you might want to research what event took place that persuaded a group of everyday citizens (the jury) to award that kind of money (if the facts of the case werenât sealed away from public view at MacDonalds urging)--remember, most people take the job of being on a jury very seriously, and juries donât just give money away. The media was curiously silent about the critical facts (because a justified law suit won't sell papers, but outrage over a large verdict will?). Imagine that the MacDonalds coffee was so hot that it raised third degree burns on this woman. Imagine that the burns were to the womanâs genitals. Imagine that this woman was profoundly humiliated and hurt by what happened. Imagine that the only reason the coffee was so damn hot was because MacDonalds had instructed all employees to make and serve the coffee that hot (on the verge of boiling) so that when (the majority of all) customers got the coffee home it had just cooled to the most preferred temperature, and MacDonalds had increased sales from those people. Imagine that MacDonalds had repeated, bitter complaints from people getting scalded in the drive-through, but did nothing to make the coffee safer because of a business decision that the way to increase sales and profits was with this excessively hot coffee. Imagine that there was no warning to this woman about how extremely hot this coffee was, or how to safely handle a liquid that hot. Imagine that MacDonalds showed reckless indifference to the danger of excessively hot coffee, for the sole purpose of carrying out a business decision that the excessively hot coffee would increase sales. Given such facts, is it wrong for a jury to decide to send a message? I wager that MacDonalds coffee is no longer served at that ridiculously extreme temperature. So, that one lawsuit spared how many people what kind of pain and suffering? Bear in mind that product liability cases are largely responsible for a multitude of safety features that save lives and preserve productivity on a daily basis. Another plug for my profession.⢠:)
#18
Cingold, I feel your pain. I was in the service for 20 years and EVERYONE thinks we are cut from the same cloth. If one guy is a dirtbag then we all must be. Kudos 2 U 4 defending your profession while not sticking up for that rat in lawyers clothing. I will admit that I did NEED a lawyer once and thank god I found one that helped me and not only himself. But you have to admit that some the high-profile ones really make your stomach turn. Unfortunately there are TOO many lawyers in California, can we exile them to say Idaho or North Dakota?
#20
But you have to admit that some the high-profile ones really make your stomach turn.
Yes, they do. Sadly, they usually only take it right to the edge of getting disbarred, but sometimes they go far enough and we can kick them out. E.g., Clinton got disbarred by the U.S. Supreme Court after being suspended by the Arkansas Supreme Court (NOTE: after being suspended in Arkansas, he probably has to reapply for admission--which does not have to be, and hopefully won't be, granted.)
#25
This guy needs a hemp necktie. We should also extend the privilege to about half the current judges on the US 9th Circus Course of A squeal. When judges and lawyers take over the government, rights are discarded. It's time for that second revolution, begun by killing all the (bad) lawyers. That will include judges, too, since 99% of them are former lawyers.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 10:56 Comments ||
Top||
#26
Heavy sigh . . .
Disclaimer: I am one of those /sarcasm on/ nasty, blood-sucking trial attorneys /sarcasm off/. TRULY, THOUGH, I donât fault any of you for your reactions, because this suit has every appearance of being baseless, groundless, and substantially vexatious, but . . . please consider the following:
Our country is one of the very few that permits liberty, individualism, and dissent. It is the commitment to these kinds of constitutionally protected principles that has made this country great. Vigorously debated, competing views allow for the best views to prevail--and for the best views to be refined even further.
I realize that my profession (trial work), like any profession, has its fair share of nut-jobs, money-grubbers, and idiots--but the general concept of the courts, juries and lawyers is a good one (as recognized by the nationâs founders). I have lived in countries where the principles of the American judicial system had no play, and there was a proportional lack of liberty, individualism, and dissent. A strong judicial system that permits liberty, individualism, and dissent will always leave the door open for this kind of stuff, and other crazy law suits, BUT OVERBEARING ATTEMPTS TO ELIMINATE THE ABUSES WILL NECESSARILY HAVE THE CONSEQUENCE OF QUASHING LIBERTY, INDIVIDUALISM, AND DISSENT. Federal Rule 11 allows for punishment of this attorney if the Court finds he is abusing the system, but I really donât think we want a system that is abuse-proof--the trade-off in loss of access to the Courts is just not worth it.
Also, before you react too quickly to multi-million dollar verdicts, please consider that the collective wisdom of a jury (the right to which is found in the Bill of Rights) is fairly uncanny--multi-million dollar verdicts are extremely rare. Multi-million dollar verdicts tend to be awarded where a corporation has made a business decision to market a known, bad product--after the finance department has worked up numbers showing that the cost of paying off verdicts and settlements will be less than profits made off the product (e.g., the Pinto car bombs, the heart stopping Fen-Phen drug cocktail . . .) Also, yes, there are attorneys who make a bundle of money off of lawsuits--but, on average, doctors and business executives make more money than lawyers. Any of these professions have their high-rollers, their middle class, and those just scraping by, and for every law firm that âmakes it bigâ I bet 2 or 3 go out of business just trying to protect the rights of average, everyday Americans.
I hear you, and I commiserate. I know several lawyers that I consider "friends" - people close enough to me to ask favors of (but NOT legal ones), help out when they need it, and support when they're down. I've also had the gross misfortune of having to deal with quite a number of the OTHER kinds of lawyers.
As with any group, there are good and bad. Most groups are self-regulating: the rotten are pruned, and the better encouraged to take on even greater responsibility. That used to be the duty of the American Bar Association and several other legal groups. Unfortunately, the last fifty years has seen an explosion in the number of lawyers, and the virtual elimination of any internal regulation and explusion of bad fruit. There's a maxim of government that anything that is unregulated (by market forces, by imposed regulation, or by self-regulation) tends to expand, eventually over-running the boundaries of "acceptability". The legal profession made it there 30 years ago. If the legal profession will not or cannot regulate those within its midst that exceed the boundaries of acceptable behavior, the entire group will be painted with the same brush as those that act inappropriately. There's also a point where those outside the group get fed up enough that they no longer tolerate the group, or find a way to impose acceptability upon the group from without.
I don't doubt that you're one of those that act appropriately according to both the laws and social contract of this nation. I also know there are a large number of your associates that do not. Failure to self-correct the problem will result in a solution being imposed.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 13:14 Comments ||
Top||
#28
Are these people who stick up for these vermen in Gauntanamo really just driven by greed or is it something much sicker,its beyond me how people can stick up for these scum.I'm appalled.
#29
Federal Rule 11 allows for punishment of this attorney if the Court finds he is abusing the system, but I really donât think we want a system that is abuse-proof--the trade-off in loss of access to the Courts is just not worth it.
The question is, would it happen in this case? And I believe the answer is likely to be "no".
That's why I suggest this Yagman guy get a good beating. A distinction between scrupulous and unscrupulous is made and appropriate punishment administered in lieu of declaring that all lawyers are parasites. :)
#30
Cingold, These people held at gitmo are not U.S. citizen and the goverment is setting up a court system to provide them some sort of justice. If our President was the Hitler/Stalin/Tazmanian Devil that everyone paints him as these people would be pushing up daisies in Afghanistan. Funny thing the lawyers aren't clogging the courts with suits against France, Germany, Russia, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Syria, or Egypt. All of these countries should be co-defendants with respect to 9/11. Hell I bet they would settle out of court! No the Lawyers are SOLELY to blame for this and I think they should fix it. Disbar these idiots and censure Judges that dole out law from the bench. If it were up to me I would start with a clean slate.
#31
I don't blame you all for being upset with Yagman, and other shysters. Just, please, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Here in Colorado, the Colorado Supreme Court is fairly rigorous in disbarring attorneys that are questionable. The system isnât perfect, but will go into your personal life and remove you from the profession if it does not like what it sees (e.g., wife beaters, tax evasion, contracts broken unfairly, ect.) Also, the Colorado Supreme Court is even stricter about scrutinizing professional actions--even so, youâre probably right that just filing this Gauntanamo suit wonât get this California attorney disbarred. But, Yagman is likely to spend a fortune that wonât ever be paid back to him, and he will lose the suit. That is, he will get a financial beating, although (maybe) not a physical one. I havenât looked at Yagman's pleadings, but I suppose he has filed suit under 42 U.S.C. § 1983, the all purpose federal statute that permits suits for violations of state and federal laws and rights. To prevail Yagman would have to show that the âalleged bad actorâ (President, Official, ect.) knew or should have known that the actions in question violated federal laws or rights. The fact that the Gauntanamo thugs are not U.S. citizens severely limits the laws and rights in question. Moreover, the fact is that the U.S. Supreme Court is looking at these issues, and will (in all likelihood) issue a ruling that completely vindicates the Executive Branch (i.e., President, etc.). I know this bogus Gauntanamo suit is a pain, but Iâd rather have a system like this where suits like this can be filed. The bad suits will lose, and the system is kept in tune for those rare occasions where official government excess must be restrained (e.g., post-Civil War detentions, citizen internments, illegal search and seizure, etc. . . ) In my mind the Court's consideration of Yagman's bogus suit is comparable to the some 1,700 times planes have been scrambled to keep the nation safe, only to find out there was no problem. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and some bogus lawsuits . . .
After the week Iâve been having, itâs good to know I can (sometimes) still make some sense. About your (tongue in cheek/spit in mouth?) question, thereâs a corollary to the question âIf a tree falls in the forest, with no one around, does it make a sound?â It is, âIf an offense occurs, with no one to witness, is it a crime?â Old Yagman better hope he doesnât bump into the right kind of people in some back alley . . .
#34
Yagman is the same guy who sued LAPD for allowing one of the crooks in the big shootout down there to die. Unfortunately, he is just successful enough to get some bad rulings published. He should be made an example of. All lawyers should be civil servants. There should be no private practice. This would ensure that every person arrested would be assigned a lawyer to defend his/her rights immediately without reguard to their financial situation. I suspect that the money saved by everyone who was protected from frivolous lawsuits and excessive judgements would more than pay the cost of civil service salaries.
#35
All lawyers should be civil servants. There should be no private practice.
Arch: I understand your sentiments, but (obviously) donât much care for the solution. Of course, I am biased. Nonetheless, I think this is no different than taking any profession (say, medicine) and saying there should be no private practice (i.e., all doctors should be civil servants). The countries that have nationalized professions (like Canadian medical care) have destroyed what was best in those professions. I apologize for the Yagmans in my profession--but not for my profession. Most states, if not every state, have ways to deter or punish frivolous lawsuits and reign in excessive judgments. I must admit, I have not seen excessive judgments (although I often hear such complaints), even though this law firm has had multi-million dollar verdicts. The one case that comes to mind is a poor kid that is just a few shades short of brain dead, but with huge physical challenges, limitations and needs. He will live like that until he dies, which wonât be soon, (because of a doctor who didnât want to come down one floor in response to readings that were way off, and because of a nurse who didnât want to rock the boat by insisting that some doctor look at the clearly bad readings). The millions are largely the cost of these lifecare needs and related economic earning losses. Under Colorado law (because this was a medical malpractice case), the pain and suffering this kid will go through for a lifetime was limited to only $250,000. I am proud that this firm obtained relief for this family, who had become destitute, even though we couldn't keep the marriage from failing under the pressure.
#36
cingold, your point is well taken. One example excessive judgement would be the MacDonalds hot coffee issue. I am not saying that all large judgements are excessive, some certainly stand out. Apologies for people like Yagman do not help. The profession must take steps to police itself. Unfortunately, this type of lawyer, supported by the likes of the 9th Circuit, does a lot of damage to the credibility of our legal system. If, in fact, lawyers are the defenders of this system, they need to start defending it. Otherwise, they risk having the job taken away from them.
#37
Arch: I agree about internal policing of the profession. In fact, I hope some California lawyer files a grievance on olâ Mr. Yagman. However, that said, if I mess up (which, of course, I never do ;) ) I have an ethical obligation to tell my clients they can sue me--I donât know of another profession that is true of. My malpractice insurance protects my client from my mistakes, as it should be. If I were sued, my client would be protected from economic loss, and the Supreme Court would probably take my license (depending on the reasons). A large verdict doesnât necessarily mean the verdict is wrong. Regarding the MacDonalds case, you might want to research what event took place that persuaded a group of everyday citizens (the jury) to award that kind of money (if the facts of the case werenât sealed away from public view at MacDonalds urging)--remember, most people take the job of being on a jury very seriously, and juries donât just give money away. The media was curiously silent about the critical facts (because a justified law suit won't sell papers, but outrage over a large verdict will?). Imagine that the MacDonalds coffee was so hot that it raised third degree burns on this woman. Imagine that the burns were to the womanâs genitals. Imagine that this woman was profoundly humiliated and hurt by what happened. Imagine that the only reason the coffee was so damn hot was because MacDonalds had instructed all employees to make and serve the coffee that hot (on the verge of boiling) so that when (the majority of all) customers got the coffee home it had just cooled to the most preferred temperature, and MacDonalds had increased sales from those people. Imagine that MacDonalds had repeated, bitter complaints from people getting scalded in the drive-through, but did nothing to make the coffee safer because of a business decision that the way to increase sales and profits was with this excessively hot coffee. Imagine that there was no warning to this woman about how extremely hot this coffee was, or how to safely handle a liquid that hot. Imagine that MacDonalds showed reckless indifference to the danger of excessively hot coffee, for the sole purpose of carrying out a business decision that the excessively hot coffee would increase sales. Given such facts, is it wrong for a jury to decide to send a message? I wager that MacDonalds coffee is no longer served at that ridiculously extreme temperature. So, that one lawsuit spared how many people what kind of pain and suffering? Bear in mind that product liability cases are largely responsible for a multitude of safety features that save lives and preserve productivity on a daily basis. Another plug for my profession.⢠:)
#38
Cingold, I feel your pain. I was in the service for 20 years and EVERYONE thinks we are cut from the same cloth. If one guy is a dirtbag then we all must be. Kudos 2 U 4 defending your profession while not sticking up for that rat in lawyers clothing. I will admit that I did NEED a lawyer once and thank god I found one that helped me and not only himself. But you have to admit that some the high-profile ones really make your stomach turn. Unfortunately there are TOO many lawyers in California, can we exile them to say Idaho or North Dakota?
#40
But you have to admit that some the high-profile ones really make your stomach turn.
Yes, they do. Sadly, they usually only take it right to the edge of getting disbarred, but sometimes they go far enough and we can kick them out. E.g., Clinton got disbarred by the U.S. Supreme Court after being suspended by the Arkansas Supreme Court (NOTE: after being suspended in Arkansas, he probably has to reapply for admission--which does not have to be, and hopefully won't be, granted.)
South Koreaâs foreign minister resigned Thursday, a day after President Roh Moo-hyun accused ministry officials of criticizing his foreign policy.
"To hell with this. I quit!"
Roh accepted Yoon Young-kwanâs resignation, saying the Foreign Ministry was not fully backing his administrationâs policy of "independence" from Washington. So, Roh is just another America-bashing ingrate, it seems
Roh took office a year ago promising to stand up on equal footing with South Koreaâs top ally. Rohâs office did not say who would replace Yoon.
"We were thinking of Kim Jong Il, but he doesn't want to take a pay cut..."
The resignation comes at a critical juncture as South Korea and the United states wrangle with North Korea over its nuclear weapons programs and discuss sending South Korean troops to help the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq. Incredible timing on this, makes you wonder if lil kimmie isnât already in control of s. korea
Yoon said at a news conference there were "some differences in perspective" between members of his staff and members of Rohâs National Security Council. He said the Foreign Ministry should serve to implement the presidentâs policy. He acknowledged people were concerned about remarks reportedly made by his officials and said he took the dispute "heavily" and was "sincerely sorry." Yonhap news agency quoted Jeong Chan-yong, a personnel affairs staffer for Roh, as saying the foreign minister was taking responsibility for failing to rein in criticism by ministry officials.
"Cheeze! That boy's crazy!"
"You can't say that!"
Local media reported that several officials in the North American affairs division, which handles U.S. relations, criticized Rohâs policy as unrealistic. at least SOMEONEâS head isnât completely buried in their a**
In turn, some National Security Council members accused Yoon of leaning too much toward the United States, Yonhap reported. Yoon said Thursday his nationâs alliance with the United States is "very useful" in resolving issues such as the North Korean standoff. jeez, ya think? maybe you should find out HOW useful
Roh took office a year ago promising to stand up to Washington on equal footing.
You said that...
He has since been criticized by his prime constituency for agreeing to the Iraqi troop dispatch and taking a firmer position in talks over North Koreaâs nuclear weapons crisis. criticized by whom? the communists? Iâm really beginning to think the ROK is lost, we should fall back, maybe to hawaii, and let them stew in their own juices; this is just unbelievable when weâre about to try and deal with the NORKS
Posted by: 4thInfVet ||
01/15/2004 3:05:49 AM ||
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Link ||
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#1
Ok, I know that the US presence there benefits the ROK (keeps the Norks out), but what does America get out of it? Anything at all?
Why should they particularly care that NKOR has nukes? Nkor can destroy Seoul with conventional artillery, so getting rid of Nkor nukes doesnt buy them all that much. And taking a hardline toward NKOR risks that very outcome, the destruction of Seoul. And if all goes well, and NKOR just collapses, theyve got this huge population to absorb - a much more difficult situation than Germany. Lets face it N. Korean nukes are a threat to the US and Japan, and a threat of spread to the mideast.
Does this mean the current govts policy is the right one for SKOR - not necessarily, and it also doesnt mean we shouldnt pressure them to take OUR interests more seriously, including rebasing. But cheap attacks on a close ally, who HAS sent troops to Iraq, is not a good idea.
#5
Roh accepted Yoon Young-kwanâs resignation, saying the Foreign Ministry was not fully backing his administrationâs policy of "independence" from Washington.
Yes! So give 'em what they want - total independence, as in the you're-on-your-own type. And the sooner the better.
#6
--He said the Foreign Ministry should serve to implement the presidentâs policy.--
So should our State Dept and look how well they implement W's policy.
---
I think Gweilo Diaries' archive is messed up, but there was a quote someone said along the lines of (in response to fingerprinting, IIRC), The US should not require visas from us to assuage our national pride.
Why should they particularly care that NKOR has nukes? Nkor can destroy Seoul with conventional artillery, so getting rid of Nkor nukes doesnt buy them all that much. And taking a hardline toward NKOR risks that very outcome, the destruction of Seoul. And if all goes well, and NKOR just collapses, theyve got this huge population to absorb - a much more difficult situation than Germany. Lets face it N. Korean nukes are a threat to the US and Japan, and a threat of spread to the mideast.
Does this mean the current govts policy is the right one for SKOR - not necessarily, and it also doesnt mean we shouldnt pressure them to take OUR interests more seriously, including rebasing. But cheap attacks on a close ally, who HAS sent troops to Iraq, is not a good idea.
#11
Roh accepted Yoon Young-kwanâs resignation, saying the Foreign Ministry was not fully backing his administrationâs policy of "independence" from Washington.
Yes! So give 'em what they want - total independence, as in the you're-on-your-own type. And the sooner the better.
#12
--He said the Foreign Ministry should serve to implement the presidentâs policy.--
So should our State Dept and look how well they implement W's policy.
---
I think Gweilo Diaries' archive is messed up, but there was a quote someone said along the lines of (in response to fingerprinting, IIRC), The US should not require visas from us to assuage our national pride.
Posted by: 4thInfVet ||
01/15/2004 2:40:38 AM ||
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#1
Good thing they didn't keep the pilot and cause an international incident. Banning all US flights to Brazil would KILL the tourist industry down there.
Posted by: Charles ||
01/15/2004 2:51 Comments ||
Top||
#2
I think the tourism industry is already half-dead. I know I'm sure as hell never going there. There are plenty of nations with nice weather, good beaches, and hot babes. Who needs Brazil?
#5
I agree with TGA, if this were a Brazillian Nut that did it inthe U.S. we would have detatined him too. Kudos to the pilot for having a set to make a statement and I hope that fine doesn't break you. If it were possible I WOULD give them a check and then cancel it after I left their airspace.
#6
Who in their right mind would visit Rio? The hotels warn you not to take your wallet or wristwatch when out on the town. They urge you to return by 10 PM, and provide maps of the city where you go only at your own peril. The "death squads" can't keep up with a pervasive juvenile delinquency, and racism, in a nation ostensibly color-blind is rampant. Even Jamaica looks good in comparison.
#8
I agree with TGA, if this were a Brazillian Nut that did it inthe U.S. we would have detatined him too.
I doubt that's true. A fine of $12,500? Two years in jail? I've never heard of anything like this happening here (NYC, gateway to America). Bomb threats are prosecuted, and people who damage property have to pay for damages but that's about it.
Here's an account of the kinds of punishments that are meted out for incidents that involve either assault or vandalism:
⢠On a flight to Germany last March, Berlin businessman and bodybuilder Oliver-Jan Westphal locked himself in the cockpit, declared himself a secret-service agent, grabbed the controls from the pilot, and yelled, âIâm bringing you all down!â The plane quickly plunged 2,000 feet. As the pilot grappled with the intruder, four passengers broke down the door and restrained the deranged man while a dentist injected him with a tranquilizer. The Boeing 737 landed safely, and Westphal was charged with assault and attempted hijacking.
⢠During a flight from Los Angeles to Taipei in February 2000, 27-year-old Hong Kong pop star Ronald Cheng became unruly after downing several whiskeys. When a flight attendant tried to quiet him down, Cheng pulled her hair and put her in a headlock, only letting go in order to choke the copilot, who had come to help. Cheng was finally subdued after the captain used a heavy flashlight to knock the crooner out. The flight was then diverted to Anchorage, Alaska, to obtain hospital care and police assistance. Cheng agreed to pay $65,000 in damages.
⢠On a December 1997 flight to Baltimore, 22-year-old Dean Trammel proclaimed himself Jesus and wandered through the aircraft blessing fellow passengers with a pillow. When the flight attendant told the 200-pound former college football player to sit down, he explained that God had ordered him to remain standing, then hurled her across two rows of seats. It eventually took four men to restrain Trammel, who was hogtied with seat belts and an airline necktie for the remainder of the flight. In court Trammel was found guilty of assault and sentenced to three yearsâ probation.
⢠Ground zero for modern air-rage episodes took place in October 1995, when Gerard Finneran of Greenwich, Connecticut, told a United Airlines flight attendant that he would âbust his assâ after being refused more wine. The heavily inebriated 58-year-old investment banker proceeded to pour drinks on himself and then relieve his diarrhea on the food cart, using the linen napkins as toilet paper. In court Finneran was ordered to pay $49,029 to cover the cleanup costs and reimbursement to fellow passengers.âLaurina Gibbs
#11
septic: adj. 1. Of, relating to, having the nature of, or affected by sepsis. 2. Causing sepsis; putrefactive
Nope. Still doesn't make sense. Anyone have any idea what the barely-literate "luke" was trying to say?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 10:53 Comments ||
Top||
#12
RC - Yes (variant Aussie slang). But since it lays there rather limply, I shrug it off rather easily. Based on the punctuation I figure he wants to be viewed as a 12 year old in a trailer outside of Alice Springs.
#13
I stand corrected. In another thread the troll in question is self-identified as Euro. I hadn't realized they used the same term over there. Best to all in Alice Springs. I still think the troll's about 12 or so.
#16
re #8 Hell, Zhang Fei, if someone got off the plane in NYC and gave the city the finger, you'd just think they were being friendly and return the greeting.
#17
I'm afraid it's cockney rhyming slang RC. Whether it originated near Bow Bells or Oz - I dunno.
Apples 'and pears' = stairs (noone uses this AFAIK! :)
Ruby 'Murray' = curry (as in "who's for a ruby?")
Syrup 'of figs' = wig (as in "Who's the geezer with the dodgy syrup!")
and...
Septic 'tank' = Yank.
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
01/15/2004 13:38 Comments ||
Top||
#18
Is it supposed to be insulting? Because right now it just makes the user seem, well, dumb as a rock covered in cow shit.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 14:25 Comments ||
Top||
#19
Hell, I would be willing to chip in a couple of dollars to defray the fine if a fund is ever set up. The point here is that we are trying to identify terrorists while the Brazilians are just being pissy and juvenile.
#20
Hell, Zhang Fei, if someone got off the plane in NYC and gave the city the finger, you'd just think they were being friendly and return the greeting.
LOL. Actually, that's about the size of it, if the guy on the other side were a civilian. But a Customs agent who got the finger would probably take the opportunity to open every single item in a person's luggage. Unlike in Brazil, American public officials are civil servants, not lords of the realm - and they don't get commended for jerking tourists around for bribes.
#21
Ok I will give you the German example: Giving a German official (police etc.) the finger is rated as a "serious" insult (schwere Beamtenbeleidung). Those who do that can be prosecuted with up to one year in prison (rarely the case, only repeat offenders I guess) and/or hefty fines. The fine will typically be your income of 30 to 60 days. How much does an AA pilot make a month? I think the Brazilian fine is fairly accurate.
This has nothing to do with terrorism, the pilot simply broke the law, that's all.
Giving the finger is actually the worst insult in Latin America. It means as much as "f*** your a***, f*** your mother" etc... you get the idea. And the pilot is not an ignorant tourist, he must know better. Being in uniform doesn't make it any better.
The new Brazilian regulations may be silly but... it's their country. If they only fingerprint Americans, it's their choice. After all America is the only country THEY get fingerprinted. Just because they are not the only ones getting fingerprinted in the U.S. doesn't make it any better (for them). They simply don't accept to be treated differently than Italians or Spaniards.
From what I saw on TV, they now entertain the US tourists with half nude samba dancers while they wait. Maybe some other nationalities will insist on getting in the same file now?
I wouldn't use it, but some people do without thinking about it. Although I reckon Luke is trying to be anal about it.
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
01/15/2004 15:34 Comments ||
Top||
#23
TGA, I think there's an undercurrent here that you aren't mentioning. The current leader of Brazil is anti-american and has done his best to sabotage broader economic, cultural and law enforcement cooperation between the US and Latin American countries. His buddy, the judge who decided to impose the intentionally painful fingerprinting etc., is helping him accomplish two aims: to deliberately annoy and humiliate Americans and to undercut the leadership in places like Rio, who were not his political supporters in the last election.
Every country can do as it pleases -- but when I and my country are deliberately insulted, I too take offense. I don't know about the nude sambas, but frankly it doesn't make much difference to me -- my Brazilian friends would be welcome to visit me here, but I will not spend a single cent in their own country.
#24
Good thing they didn't keep the pilot and cause an international incident. Banning all US flights to Brazil would KILL the tourist industry down there.
Posted by: Charles ||
01/15/2004 2:51 Comments ||
Top||
#25
I think the tourism industry is already half-dead. I know I'm sure as hell never going there. There are plenty of nations with nice weather, good beaches, and hot babes. Who needs Brazil?
#28
I agree with TGA, if this were a Brazillian Nut that did it inthe U.S. we would have detatined him too. Kudos to the pilot for having a set to make a statement and I hope that fine doesn't break you. If it were possible I WOULD give them a check and then cancel it after I left their airspace.
#29
Who in their right mind would visit Rio? The hotels warn you not to take your wallet or wristwatch when out on the town. They urge you to return by 10 PM, and provide maps of the city where you go only at your own peril. The "death squads" can't keep up with a pervasive juvenile delinquency, and racism, in a nation ostensibly color-blind is rampant. Even Jamaica looks good in comparison.
#31
I agree with TGA, if this were a Brazillian Nut that did it inthe U.S. we would have detatined him too.
I doubt that's true. A fine of $12,500? Two years in jail? I've never heard of anything like this happening here (NYC, gateway to America). Bomb threats are prosecuted, and people who damage property have to pay for damages but that's about it.
Here's an account of the kinds of punishments that are meted out for incidents that involve either assault or vandalism:
⢠On a flight to Germany last March, Berlin businessman and bodybuilder Oliver-Jan Westphal locked himself in the cockpit, declared himself a secret-service agent, grabbed the controls from the pilot, and yelled, âIâm bringing you all down!â The plane quickly plunged 2,000 feet. As the pilot grappled with the intruder, four passengers broke down the door and restrained the deranged man while a dentist injected him with a tranquilizer. The Boeing 737 landed safely, and Westphal was charged with assault and attempted hijacking.
⢠During a flight from Los Angeles to Taipei in February 2000, 27-year-old Hong Kong pop star Ronald Cheng became unruly after downing several whiskeys. When a flight attendant tried to quiet him down, Cheng pulled her hair and put her in a headlock, only letting go in order to choke the copilot, who had come to help. Cheng was finally subdued after the captain used a heavy flashlight to knock the crooner out. The flight was then diverted to Anchorage, Alaska, to obtain hospital care and police assistance. Cheng agreed to pay $65,000 in damages.
⢠On a December 1997 flight to Baltimore, 22-year-old Dean Trammel proclaimed himself Jesus and wandered through the aircraft blessing fellow passengers with a pillow. When the flight attendant told the 200-pound former college football player to sit down, he explained that God had ordered him to remain standing, then hurled her across two rows of seats. It eventually took four men to restrain Trammel, who was hogtied with seat belts and an airline necktie for the remainder of the flight. In court Trammel was found guilty of assault and sentenced to three yearsâ probation.
⢠Ground zero for modern air-rage episodes took place in October 1995, when Gerard Finneran of Greenwich, Connecticut, told a United Airlines flight attendant that he would âbust his assâ after being refused more wine. The heavily inebriated 58-year-old investment banker proceeded to pour drinks on himself and then relieve his diarrhea on the food cart, using the linen napkins as toilet paper. In court Finneran was ordered to pay $49,029 to cover the cleanup costs and reimbursement to fellow passengers.âLaurina Gibbs
#34
septic: adj. 1. Of, relating to, having the nature of, or affected by sepsis. 2. Causing sepsis; putrefactive
Nope. Still doesn't make sense. Anyone have any idea what the barely-literate "luke" was trying to say?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 10:53 Comments ||
Top||
#35
RC - Yes (variant Aussie slang). But since it lays there rather limply, I shrug it off rather easily. Based on the punctuation I figure he wants to be viewed as a 12 year old in a trailer outside of Alice Springs.
#36
I stand corrected. In another thread the troll in question is self-identified as Euro. I hadn't realized they used the same term over there. Best to all in Alice Springs. I still think the troll's about 12 or so.
#39
re #8 Hell, Zhang Fei, if someone got off the plane in NYC and gave the city the finger, you'd just think they were being friendly and return the greeting.
#40
I'm afraid it's cockney rhyming slang RC. Whether it originated near Bow Bells or Oz - I dunno.
Apples 'and pears' = stairs (noone uses this AFAIK! :)
Ruby 'Murray' = curry (as in "who's for a ruby?")
Syrup 'of figs' = wig (as in "Who's the geezer with the dodgy syrup!")
and...
Septic 'tank' = Yank.
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
01/15/2004 13:38 Comments ||
Top||
#41
Is it supposed to be insulting? Because right now it just makes the user seem, well, dumb as a rock covered in cow shit.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 14:25 Comments ||
Top||
#42
Hell, I would be willing to chip in a couple of dollars to defray the fine if a fund is ever set up. The point here is that we are trying to identify terrorists while the Brazilians are just being pissy and juvenile.
#43
Hell, Zhang Fei, if someone got off the plane in NYC and gave the city the finger, you'd just think they were being friendly and return the greeting.
LOL. Actually, that's about the size of it, if the guy on the other side were a civilian. But a Customs agent who got the finger would probably take the opportunity to open every single item in a person's luggage. Unlike in Brazil, American public officials are civil servants, not lords of the realm - and they don't get commended for jerking tourists around for bribes.
#44
Ok I will give you the German example: Giving a German official (police etc.) the finger is rated as a "serious" insult (schwere Beamtenbeleidung). Those who do that can be prosecuted with up to one year in prison (rarely the case, only repeat offenders I guess) and/or hefty fines. The fine will typically be your income of 30 to 60 days. How much does an AA pilot make a month? I think the Brazilian fine is fairly accurate.
This has nothing to do with terrorism, the pilot simply broke the law, that's all.
Giving the finger is actually the worst insult in Latin America. It means as much as "f*** your a***, f*** your mother" etc... you get the idea. And the pilot is not an ignorant tourist, he must know better. Being in uniform doesn't make it any better.
The new Brazilian regulations may be silly but... it's their country. If they only fingerprint Americans, it's their choice. After all America is the only country THEY get fingerprinted. Just because they are not the only ones getting fingerprinted in the U.S. doesn't make it any better (for them). They simply don't accept to be treated differently than Italians or Spaniards.
From what I saw on TV, they now entertain the US tourists with half nude samba dancers while they wait. Maybe some other nationalities will insist on getting in the same file now?
I wouldn't use it, but some people do without thinking about it. Although I reckon Luke is trying to be anal about it.
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
01/15/2004 15:34 Comments ||
Top||
#46
TGA, I think there's an undercurrent here that you aren't mentioning. The current leader of Brazil is anti-american and has done his best to sabotage broader economic, cultural and law enforcement cooperation between the US and Latin American countries. His buddy, the judge who decided to impose the intentionally painful fingerprinting etc., is helping him accomplish two aims: to deliberately annoy and humiliate Americans and to undercut the leadership in places like Rio, who were not his political supporters in the last election.
Every country can do as it pleases -- but when I and my country are deliberately insulted, I too take offense. I don't know about the nude sambas, but frankly it doesn't make much difference to me -- my Brazilian friends would be welcome to visit me here, but I will not spend a single cent in their own country.
Basayev gives a calm and rational explanation of the Chechen war.
In the name of God, Most Benevolent, Most Merciful!
Hello to you, too!
By the Mercy of Allah the past year of 2003 was very successful and very good year for us because for the past year our Mujahideen managed to inflict great damages on Kafirs and Munafiqs (hypocrites) and to deal crushing blows on the enemy. According to my information, for the year 2003 all Mujahideen in Chechnya and on the enemy soil have conducted over three thousand blasts, destroyed and disabled over 1,000 units of military vehicles including armored vehicles, shot down 31 helicopters, eliminated over 8,000 Kafirs and over 700 Munafiqs who cooperated with the invadersâ regime.
"We're tearin' 'em up! There ain't nobody like us! We're Numbah One! We're Numbah One!"
Praise Allah, this year was also marked by the expansion of the zone of combat operations and of the territories where the Jihad against aggressors is being conducted, as well as by the creation of new military sectors. For instance, the newly-created sectors are: the Ingush Sector, the Ossetian Sector, the Aukh Sector, the Stavropol Sector, and the Dagestani trend was activated as well. The Kafirs themselves had to admit that over the year 2003 they have suffered much greater casualties than they did in the previous two years.
"We got lotsa cannon fodder, an' we got guns, an' we got ammunition! With that an' the Koran, we can do anything!"
We are not fighting to intimidate anybody or to prove something to somebody, or to ruin somebodyâs holiday or some other action. We are fighting for our Faith, for our Freedom and Independence. And whoever tries to present our fight as something like turf wars between âbandit formationsâ will not succeed and nothing will ever change. From the very beginning the leadership of Russia has set up the goal to turn this war into âinternal inter-Chechen warâ, into an internal conflict. For these purposes Russians have been training and arming our homebred national traitors, who are getting away with anything today, because they are nothing but disposable material, which can be written off tomorrow once they get done with their dirty work. But they will never succeed in turning this war into a civil war, because a civil war can only take place between free people, and our national traitors are lackeys and toadies of the Kafirs, they are grovellers of the Russian invaders.
"They ain't like us, by Gum! We grovel to no one. Except the Arab invaders. But that's different."
Nothing changes if they are claiming to be âChechensâ, - they are accomplices of the invaders. They were being punished, they are and they will be properly punished for their treason. This is a war between Russia and the Chechen State. Some are using the terms like âthe first warâ, âthe second warâ, âthe 400-year warâ, but for us it is the everlasting war for our Freedom and Independence. And the main thing â this is the war for our Faith, which came from our fathers and our forefathers, and which we will be waging until we become masters of our own lives and our own destinies. I am hereby stating that whichever attempts the Kafirs would be making, nothing will stop this Jihad, which is becoming more and more active each day, because the dead and the wounded are being replaced by the new generation.
"I mean, we got cannon fodder lined up as far as the eye can see, just waiting to stop a Russian bullet, to be maimed for life, to 'fall down the stairs' at a Russian prison!"
InshaAllah, we have no problems with replenishing our forces. If Russia is degrading and dying out, the Chechen population is increasing in spite of the war, - and this is also a contribution of ordinary Chechens into the cause of Jihad.
"I mean, our breeding stock is so hot, you show up wearing a turban and the pants come right off 'em. Nine months later y'got a replacement for a dead hero!"
So, praise God, we have no problems with our fighters. Moscow is spreading a lot of propaganda about the acts by Brigade of Shaheeds Riyadus Salihiin. They are trying to accuse us of killing innocent people. But it is only another attempt of blatant lies.
"There ain't nobody innocent as far as we're concerned!"
They cannot be âtotally innocentâ for the simple fact that they are approving of this slaughter, financing it, electing the rulers that are publicly promising to deal with the Chechens, and conducting genocide on the Chechen land. Therefore we are accusing all of them of being accomplices in the genocide against the Chechen people.
"That's right! All of 'em! An' we're gonna kill 'em all, too! Just you wait and see!"
Last year relatives of the Nord-Ost hostages in the Moscow theater were trying to organize something like a rally, even though we did not really need it. About 50 people had gathered, and the Moscowers were just laughing at them. If Russists (Russian chauvinists) donât like to be getting killed, itâs up to them, itâs their problem. Russiaâs leadership handles the murder of their fellow Russian citizens pretty well. And we, InshaAllah, will make most of the efforts in this direction, because we are not going to let Russiaâs bloody crimes go unpunished.
"We'll show 'em what bloody crimes really are, by Gum!"
We have been tolerating for a while and keeping Russian citizens away from the problems. Up until this day we have been letting Russiaâs gravest crimes go unpunished. We have been deliberately keeping the war within our territories. Our patience was not appreciated. There is a limit to everything, and everything comes to an end sooner or later. Russiaâs leadership, and Putin first of all, are sick people. Many people understand it, but nobody has the heart to say it. Putin is very sick. He is suffering paranoiac schizophrenia. But actually, when have normal people ever been in power in Russia? The past parliamentary elections have shown once again that there have always been nationalists, fascists and chauvinists in power in Russia. Whatever democratic forms the Russian empire would assume, it has always remained an empire; it has always remained a parasite, which needs blood and which can only exist on the blood of other nations.
"Us Islamists are different! No nationalism for us! No chauvinism for us! No fascism for us! Instead, we bind together all the classes of society, rich and poor, workers, peasants, the artisans, the clergy, none of them powerful in themselves, into something stronger than any of them, bound together like... ummm... fasces by the ties of religion! Marching in serried ranks with Islamic discipline, we carry out the policies of The Leader and... ummm... oppose fascism. And irreligion and stuff, too."
There was a time when the Kafirs were hoping that by killing the first President of CRI J. Dudayev they would be able to have something changed. But after President Dudayev became a Shaheed, the Jihad only increased and the Mujahideen got even stronger. Nothing will change if President Maskhadov, myself or any other leader becomes a Shaheed.
"I might even shoot him myself, just to prove it!"
Thank God, we are not afraid of death and we are not trying to escape it. But if Kafirs want me to die so bad, I can make them an offer: let them give me some more money, about 10-20 million more, and I will give that money to Maskhadov to continue the Jihad, and I myself will buy me a good KAMAZ truck and will drive right up to them. By Mercy of Allah we have gone through another year of the war. I am calling on the Mujahideen to get even more consolidated and unite around our leadership even firmer, to strengthen the discipline, to strengthen the Nizam, to be steadfast and patient. The victory is near! And may Allah help us on His Straight Way! Allah Akbar!
Cut to sounds of marching feet... In the background, voices singing in Islamic unison: "Die Fahne hoch..."
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
01/15/2004 1:03:38 AM ||
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And may Allah help us on His Straight Way!
Hate to tell him, but that Allah's path is a LONG way down.
Posted by: Charles ||
01/15/2004 2:33 Comments ||
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#2
Great comments!!! And they actually make a lot more of sense that Basayev's rants.
But let's remember one thing: since long before Afghanistan, our Russian "allies" have done a great deal to inspire the Islamic fanaticism with which we now contend.
Posted by: Alan Sullivan ||
01/15/2004 18:38 Comments ||
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#4
And may Allah help us on His Straight Way!
Hate to tell him, but that Allah's path is a LONG way down.
Posted by: Charles ||
01/15/2004 2:33 Comments ||
Top||
#5
Great comments!!! And they actually make a lot more of sense that Basayev's rants.
But let's remember one thing: since long before Afghanistan, our Russian "allies" have done a great deal to inspire the Islamic fanaticism with which we now contend.
Posted by: Alan Sullivan ||
01/15/2004 18:38 Comments ||
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Itâs not every day that a group with close ties to Saddam Hussein and its very own place on the U.S. list of terrorist organizations promotes a charity event in the heart of Washington. But on January 24 a banned Iranian terrorist group called the MEK, or Peopleâs Mujaheddin, will make its presence felt at a fundraiser for victims of Iranâs devastating December 26 earthquake.
A one-time MEK militant helping to orchestrate the fundraiser emphasizes that its sponsors are a variety of Iranian-American organizations. He told TIME they have hired out a 5,000 seat ballroom in the Washington Convention Center, and hope to attract members of Congress and even big name U.S. entertainers. But the event also appears designed to promote the MEK: a photograph of a top MEK official appears on advertising for the Washington gala, and a message from that official is to be read at the event.
This, sources tell TIME, has upset senior Iranian officials who regard the fundraiser as a sign of Washingtonâs hypocrisy and refusal to honor its promises to crack down on the MEK, which is dedicated to the overthrow of Iranâs theocratic government. Not only does the MEK appear on an official U.S. list of terrorist organizations, but federal law enforcement officials last year raided and closed its offices in Washington and Los Angeles.
Sources say Tehran is also worried about the role of the Red Cross, which has been designated to receive money from the fundraiser. The problem: publicity for the event, posted on the MEKâs website along with a symbol of the Red Cross, calls for "regime change" in Iran. A spokesperson for the American Red Cross told TIME that it remains apolitical and has no role in the event, but does expect to handle some of the money it raises. Earlier this month, Tehran rejected a Bush administration offer to send a high-level delegation to Iran led by former Red Cross head Elizabeth Dole.
Controversy over the MEK lies at the nexus of a continuing deadlock in U.S.- Iranian relations. Saddam made military bases in Iraq available to the MEK in exchange for their help in brutally suppressing dissent among Iraqi Kurds and Shiites. With Saddam overthrown, the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council (IGC) recently demanded the groupâs expulsion, which the U.S. has said it will not oppose.
That has not happened so far, but U.S. troops have surrounded a big MEK military base in Iraq â camp Ashraf â which holds some 3,800 militants who have been partly disarmed. But the guerrilla group has reportedly continued propaganda broadcasts into Iran, and remained politically active in Iraq.
The State Department, which has come under pressure from Iran as well as European allies to further limit the MEK, has designated the group a "foreign terrorist organization" since 1999 based on its targeting of American citizens in the 1970âs, and numerous lethal attacks inside Iran over the last 20 years. But some conservatives have argued that the MEK could be useful to the U.S. in pressuring or overthrowing Iran, one of Bushâs "axis of evil" countries. In fact, the MEK is believed to have provided the U.S. with significant leads about Iranâs secret nuclear program. In a series of high-level talks last year, Iran repeatedly demanded that the U.S. crack down on the MEK, something the U.S. has said it would do.
Another bone of contention in those talks, which were broken off in May, was whether the U.S. would turn over MEK guerrillas and leaders to Iran in an exchange for the al-Qaeda terrorists Tehran is holding. King Abdullah of Jordan has tried to broker such a deal and, on January 1, 2004, President Bush publicly demanded that Tehran repatriate the al-Qaeda terrorists in its custody, a group thought to include Saif- al-Adel, the organizationâs third highest ranking member. Iran has said it might comply, but only after America fulfills its pledge to curtail all MEK activity.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/15/2004 12:46:42 AM ||
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Gawrsh, we shure wouldn't want ta annoy the black turban crowd, would we?
But the guerrilla group has reportedly continued propaganda broadcasts into Iran, and remained politically active in Iraq.
Do we not have the ability to curtail this?
the MEK could be useful to the U.S. in pressuring or overthrowing Iran, one of Bushâs "axis of evil" countries. Ahh..I too am a "realist and optimist"! But even though Machiavelli had a valid point, I hope he rots in hell.
Posted by: B ||
01/15/2004 11:34 Comments ||
Top||
#3
Gawrsh, we shure wouldn't want ta annoy the black turban crowd, would we?
But the guerrilla group has reportedly continued propaganda broadcasts into Iran, and remained politically active in Iraq.
Do we not have the ability to curtail this?
the MEK could be useful to the U.S. in pressuring or overthrowing Iran, one of Bushâs "axis of evil" countries. Ahh..I too am a "realist and optimist"! But even though Machiavelli had a valid point, I hope he rots in hell.
Posted by: B ||
01/15/2004 11:34 Comments ||
Top||
Sudan military dictatorship front-man Omar Bashir Wednesday issued a warning to the Sudan Peoples Liberation Army (SPLA) over the contentious issue of the administration of three disputed areas of Sudan. Speaking at a press conference in the Northern Sudan town of Merowe, Bashir warned the SPLA that the dictatorship would not tolerate attempts to expand the southern Sudanese border to include areas in the north.
"I suppose you realize: this means war!"
"What the hell have we been doing all this time?"
Despite recent advances in relations between the two sides, including last weekâs signing of a wealth-sharing pact, growing demands by southern rebels to extend the contested Abyei region to the town of Northern Bahr El Gazal were reported to have angered the Islamist dictatorship.
Set them to seething, I'll bet...
20 years of continuous conflict in Sudan between the non-Arab south and the Arab north have devastated the country and claimed some six million lives. The two sides have agreed the south should be autonomous for six years, after which a referendum on independence will be held. But the three disputed areas - the Nuba Mountains, the southern Blue Nile and the Abyei region - remain a serious bone of contention between the factions. While peace talks in Kenya have brought an end to 20 years of bloodshed in the south, the conflict between pro-democracy rebels in the non-Arab west of Sudan and the dictatorship has intensified, with the regime now diverting its military effort to "crush and wipe out" the resistance in Darfur.
Which would take troops and camel-riding heroes away from the effort to "crush and wipe out" the southerners...
Negotiations on the disputed areas of central Sudan between the dictatorship and the south Sudan SPLA rebels have begun under the auspices of the Inter-Governmental Authority on Development (IGAD), a cross-border body with members drawn from seven Horn of Africa countries. However the Arab Islamist dictatorshipâs hardline stance and the statement of itâs front-man Bashir that it agreed to the talks just "to encourage the rebels" may threaten the peace process, analysts said. Other analysts believe the American pressures on the dictatorship to avoid a fate similar to Saddam Hussein and holding the carrot of removal from the U.S. list of terrorist states, will force the regime to reach a final settlement with the SPLA.
I think Sudan is out of the terrorism business, though only as a tactical move to avoid being treated like Afghanistan. It's still one of the smelliest regimes on the face of the earth, and it should be dismantled just on general principles.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/15/2004 12:39:02 AM ||
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The three slices of territory have been the source of dispute since the 1972 agreement that ended Sudan's first civil war. The government agreed to hold a plebiscite in the regions, but never did. One region (Abyei) is the center of oil operations; a second, Hofrat an-Nahas, has been the center of primitive copper mining, and the third near the Ethiopian border is a center of primitive gold mining and a potentially rich agricultural region. If an honest plebiscite were held the three regions would go to the South. Khartoum's riverain Arabs could never permit that.
#2
The three slices of territory have been the source of dispute since the 1972 agreement that ended Sudan's first civil war. The government agreed to hold a plebiscite in the regions, but never did. One region (Abyei) is the center of oil operations; a second, Hofrat an-Nahas, has been the center of primitive copper mining, and the third near the Ethiopian border is a center of primitive gold mining and a potentially rich agricultural region. If an honest plebiscite were held the three regions would go to the South. Khartoum's riverain Arabs could never permit that.
Howard Dean on Wednesday accused Wesley Clark of being a closet Republican, sticking to his word to strike out at rivals encroaching on his lead in the Democratic presidential race. Dean finally says something I can half-way believe.
"I think General Clark is a good guy, but I truly believe heâs a Republican," Dean told a town hall meeting in New Hampshire, where Clark is narrowing Deanâs lead in the polls. "I do. Harry Truman once said if you run a Republican against a Republican, the Republicanâs going to win every time." In response, Clark told reporters after a national security speech in New Hampshire: "Iâm a Democrat." Attaboy, Wesley, what a stirring retort.
A spokesman, Bill Buck, said Clark is a committed Democrat who supported Bill Clinton, Al Gore and other Democratic candidates. He said Deanâs comment "smacks of old-time negative politics" that will turn off voters. Clawing each otherâs eyes out is a long and honored Democratic tradition.
"If Howard Dean wonders why his poll numbers are dropping in New Hampshire, he should look in the mirror," Buck said. meow! hiss, hiss!
Dean noted that Clark voted for Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan and attended Republican fund-raisers in recent years. "I do not think somebody ought to run in the Democratic primary and then make the general election the Republican primary between two Republicans," Dean said to applause from the under-age crowd. Deanâs campaign has been distributing fliers at Clarkâs appearances in New Hampshire, criticizing his past support of Republicans. I predict a brokered convention. What fun!
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/15/2004 12:30:32 AM ||
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Hey guyz--Madonna has endorsed Wesley Clark--that's good enough for me!
Posted by: NotMike Moore ||
01/15/2004 1:02 Comments ||
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#2
Are trippi and dean going to be brought up on fed charges of voter fraud in Iowa? It certainly can't be legal to bus in 'voters' from Georgia to vote in the primary. But then, it is a 'democratic' primary, so I guess it's Mob Rules, last wimpy little midget man standing wins, eh?
#3
The fact that Modonna actually felt compelled to endorse Clark gives me enough reason not to vote for him. Having a 40+ year-old singer who dances like a stripper be your largest endorser isn't a good thing. Unless you're a sexual deviant, which Clark may very well be considering who he considers friends.
Posted by: Charles ||
01/15/2004 2:31 Comments ||
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#4
Good grief, almighty. The thought of either of these clowns assuming the position of CnC just seizes my pyloric valve. Ouch!
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
01/15/2004 2:52 Comments ||
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#5
Oh come on. They have got no chance whatsoever, either of them. Both are so daffy that when the general election comes along, neither is going to unseat GW.
So sit back and enjoy the show. It don't mean a thing.
Posted by: Ben ||
01/15/2004 4:51 Comments ||
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#6
I think Maddona now lives in the UK and studies some made up religion? Like endorsing Clark will actually get them any votes in Iowa? Next the Dixie chicks will endorse Dean! Boy this is going to be a fun election cycle.
#7
Remember Lyndon Johnson, who so deftly snatched defeat from the jaws of victory after Tet of '68.
"They don't bomb an outhouse without my say-so."
Clark is a micromanager too, with the megalo-mania associated with that trait. I fear him much more than Dean. That is because of Clintons.
Posted by: Fred Patterson ||
01/15/2004 8:57 Comments ||
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#8
a few comments
1. Brokered convention - that comes up regularly as a prediction, and never happens. Lots of reasons why it wont happen (of course the 2000 thing was also unprecedented)
2. Madonna's religion. Apparently Madonna is studying Kabala - traditional Jewish mysticism -When Gentiles study it, divorced from the rest of traditional Judaism, they tends toward the new agey, "made up religion approach" - while gentiles have been study it for several hundred years (and spelling it Cabala) it has only become fashionable in the last few years. In fairness theres a certain amount of whackiness in some elements of the tradition itself, as in most mysticisms.
3. Clark and Clinton - oddly, Clarks foreign policy pronouncements continue to differ from Bill and Hilary's - they may be supporting Clark for strategic reasons, but i doubt they really want to see him as Pres.
#10
1. Clark, Clintons, brokered convention. Hilary waltz's in and graciously accepts the sceptre. Clark gets VP nod. 2. Clark's foreign policy does not exist. I just hope that he refuses orders on what to say and his ego breaks up this marriage, before or better, during the convention.
Posted by: Fred Patterson ||
01/15/2004 9:44 Comments ||
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#11
So Howard Dean flatters Wes.
BTW, Wesley Clark's positions on some issues are left even of the D'micratic party line.
#12
The only question that Clark needs to be asked in a debate is:
Why would your fellow Generals say publically that they would not vote for you because of "integrity" issues, what do you believe those issues to be Gen. Clark?
(Personally I think it may have something to do with being an egotistical ladder climber, and his first responsibility being himself and not his troops)
#13
Fred P... do you think we'll ever see another brokered convention? I'm not sure there's anyone left alive who could manage a serious smokefilled room.
#14
I dunno, Shipman, I bet there would be enough joints in the convention hall to pull it off. After all, no one said it had to be tobacco smoke.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 13:44 Comments ||
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#15
Weasel Clark is neither a Democrat nor a Republican, but a tattoed, dyed-in-the-wool member of the International Weasel Party. He proves this every time he speaks. A Weasel does not tell the truth, but the "truth" those listening to him want to hear. A Weasel isn't required to be honest, just loud. A Weasel has only one moral: "If it's good for me, it's right, if it's NOT good for me, it's wrong." Words like "commitment", "honor", "character" and "promise" have different meanings to Weasels than they do to other people. Weasel Clark learned these things from the Master, Wm. J. Clinton/H. R. Clinton (the two-headed "co-president" monster). Once you understand that, everything Weasel Clark says and does makes sense.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 13:59 Comments ||
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#16
RC I hadn't thought of that. It all makes sense now.... if it is a brokered convention... I will find someway to be there. 2nd handsmoke is so cheery.
#17
In the information age, smoke-filled room is but a(n) euphemism. The brokering has already occurred. When Wes Clark announced his Democratic candidacy, I immediately thought, "What the hell?" I then answered myself "Clintons!".
Bill owes Hil a shot at the Presidency. But, W looks formidable. The canard would not fly unless something unforeseen happens. If not, there is still 2008.
Posted by: Fred Patterson ||
01/15/2004 15:35 Comments ||
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#18
There will never,ever be a Clinton/Clark ticket.Small reason:Hillary has shown a continuing dislike/distrust of the military-recent
example of not waiting for troops to be served in Afghanistan;she either ignored or refused to listen to military liason assigned to her group-and no way is a general going to get important position in her administration.Medium reason:Clark is Bill's guy,and Hillary is not going to have any friends of Bill in her administration.Big reason:Hillary's ego.Having Clark as Veep would be admitting she is weak on Defense/Foreign Policy,and she will never concede she is not an expert on anything.
So why are the Clintons giving some help to Clark?(Altho Bill sure isn't out campaigning for Clark.)They are staying in touch with new generation of Democratic activists,donors and local workers,as well as latest campaigning tactics,so their run in 2008 will be up to date,not based on 1992/96 campaign.
Posted by: Stephen ||
01/15/2004 19:43 Comments ||
Top||
#19
Stephen, very astute observations. I definitely accept your assessment of them staying in touch scenario. You mentioned her ego. I cannot believe that anything could stop her personal ambition. I do not easily accept conspiracy theories, but it is not a conspiracy to set up someone, then blackmail them. She owns both sets of balls in the family. I even somehow suspect that Monica was her procurement. And I expect her to have a spare pair of balls in case she sees an opportunity that includes Clark. Clark is just wearing them for her, for now.
Remember LBJ's, "It's hard for a man to say no when you have his balls in your pocket." Funny how often ole Lyndon comes to mind these days.
Posted by: Fred Patterson ||
01/15/2004 20:50 Comments ||
Top||
#20
Hey guyz--Madonna has endorsed Wesley Clark--that's good enough for me!
Posted by: NotMike Moore ||
01/15/2004 1:02 Comments ||
Top||
#21
Are trippi and dean going to be brought up on fed charges of voter fraud in Iowa? It certainly can't be legal to bus in 'voters' from Georgia to vote in the primary. But then, it is a 'democratic' primary, so I guess it's Mob Rules, last wimpy little midget man standing wins, eh?
#22
The fact that Modonna actually felt compelled to endorse Clark gives me enough reason not to vote for him. Having a 40+ year-old singer who dances like a stripper be your largest endorser isn't a good thing. Unless you're a sexual deviant, which Clark may very well be considering who he considers friends.
Posted by: Charles ||
01/15/2004 2:31 Comments ||
Top||
#23
Good grief, almighty. The thought of either of these clowns assuming the position of CnC just seizes my pyloric valve. Ouch!
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
01/15/2004 2:52 Comments ||
Top||
#24
Oh come on. They have got no chance whatsoever, either of them. Both are so daffy that when the general election comes along, neither is going to unseat GW.
So sit back and enjoy the show. It don't mean a thing.
Posted by: Ben ||
01/15/2004 4:51 Comments ||
Top||
#25
I think Maddona now lives in the UK and studies some made up religion? Like endorsing Clark will actually get them any votes in Iowa? Next the Dixie chicks will endorse Dean! Boy this is going to be a fun election cycle.
#26
Remember Lyndon Johnson, who so deftly snatched defeat from the jaws of victory after Tet of '68.
"They don't bomb an outhouse without my say-so."
Clark is a micromanager too, with the megalo-mania associated with that trait. I fear him much more than Dean. That is because of Clintons.
Posted by: Fred Patterson ||
01/15/2004 8:57 Comments ||
Top||
#27
a few comments
1. Brokered convention - that comes up regularly as a prediction, and never happens. Lots of reasons why it wont happen (of course the 2000 thing was also unprecedented)
2. Madonna's religion. Apparently Madonna is studying Kabala - traditional Jewish mysticism -When Gentiles study it, divorced from the rest of traditional Judaism, they tends toward the new agey, "made up religion approach" - while gentiles have been study it for several hundred years (and spelling it Cabala) it has only become fashionable in the last few years. In fairness theres a certain amount of whackiness in some elements of the tradition itself, as in most mysticisms.
3. Clark and Clinton - oddly, Clarks foreign policy pronouncements continue to differ from Bill and Hilary's - they may be supporting Clark for strategic reasons, but i doubt they really want to see him as Pres.
#29
1. Clark, Clintons, brokered convention. Hilary waltz's in and graciously accepts the sceptre. Clark gets VP nod. 2. Clark's foreign policy does not exist. I just hope that he refuses orders on what to say and his ego breaks up this marriage, before or better, during the convention.
Posted by: Fred Patterson ||
01/15/2004 9:44 Comments ||
Top||
#30
So Howard Dean flatters Wes.
BTW, Wesley Clark's positions on some issues are left even of the D'micratic party line.
#31
The only question that Clark needs to be asked in a debate is:
Why would your fellow Generals say publically that they would not vote for you because of "integrity" issues, what do you believe those issues to be Gen. Clark?
(Personally I think it may have something to do with being an egotistical ladder climber, and his first responsibility being himself and not his troops)
#32
Fred P... do you think we'll ever see another brokered convention? I'm not sure there's anyone left alive who could manage a serious smokefilled room.
#33
I dunno, Shipman, I bet there would be enough joints in the convention hall to pull it off. After all, no one said it had to be tobacco smoke.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
01/15/2004 13:44 Comments ||
Top||
#34
Weasel Clark is neither a Democrat nor a Republican, but a tattoed, dyed-in-the-wool member of the International Weasel Party. He proves this every time he speaks. A Weasel does not tell the truth, but the "truth" those listening to him want to hear. A Weasel isn't required to be honest, just loud. A Weasel has only one moral: "If it's good for me, it's right, if it's NOT good for me, it's wrong." Words like "commitment", "honor", "character" and "promise" have different meanings to Weasels than they do to other people. Weasel Clark learned these things from the Master, Wm. J. Clinton/H. R. Clinton (the two-headed "co-president" monster). Once you understand that, everything Weasel Clark says and does makes sense.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 13:59 Comments ||
Top||
#35
RC I hadn't thought of that. It all makes sense now.... if it is a brokered convention... I will find someway to be there. 2nd handsmoke is so cheery.
#36
In the information age, smoke-filled room is but a(n) euphemism. The brokering has already occurred. When Wes Clark announced his Democratic candidacy, I immediately thought, "What the hell?" I then answered myself "Clintons!".
Bill owes Hil a shot at the Presidency. But, W looks formidable. The canard would not fly unless something unforeseen happens. If not, there is still 2008.
Posted by: Fred Patterson ||
01/15/2004 15:35 Comments ||
Top||
#37
There will never,ever be a Clinton/Clark ticket.Small reason:Hillary has shown a continuing dislike/distrust of the military-recent
example of not waiting for troops to be served in Afghanistan;she either ignored or refused to listen to military liason assigned to her group-and no way is a general going to get important position in her administration.Medium reason:Clark is Bill's guy,and Hillary is not going to have any friends of Bill in her administration.Big reason:Hillary's ego.Having Clark as Veep would be admitting she is weak on Defense/Foreign Policy,and she will never concede she is not an expert on anything.
So why are the Clintons giving some help to Clark?(Altho Bill sure isn't out campaigning for Clark.)They are staying in touch with new generation of Democratic activists,donors and local workers,as well as latest campaigning tactics,so their run in 2008 will be up to date,not based on 1992/96 campaign.
Posted by: Stephen ||
01/15/2004 19:43 Comments ||
Top||
#38
Stephen, very astute observations. I definitely accept your assessment of them staying in touch scenario. You mentioned her ego. I cannot believe that anything could stop her personal ambition. I do not easily accept conspiracy theories, but it is not a conspiracy to set up someone, then blackmail them. She owns both sets of balls in the family. I even somehow suspect that Monica was her procurement. And I expect her to have a spare pair of balls in case she sees an opportunity that includes Clark. Clark is just wearing them for her, for now.
Remember LBJ's, "It's hard for a man to say no when you have his balls in your pocket." Funny how often ole Lyndon comes to mind these days.
Posted by: Fred Patterson ||
01/15/2004 20:50 Comments ||
Top||
Officers of the temporary operational group of the Russian Interior Ministry and criminal police of the Kurchaloyevsky district have thwarted attempts to prepare and stage new acts of terror in Chechnya. On Tuesday, the police uncovered a cache containing 12 jet-propelled projectiles, six mines, more than 16 kilogrammes of TNT, three kilogrammes of plastic explosive, 19 grenades, electric fuses and rechargeable batteries on the outskirts of the Geldygen village, the Interim press centre of the Russian Interior Ministry in the North Caucasian region told Itar-Tass on Wednesday. As a result of operational-search action on the same day police found two Shmel flame-throwers and 16 rounds to grenade launcher cached by the roadside. According to law enforcers, this cache of arms belonged to the clandestine gunmen group of Abubakar Bashuyev who was killed in an armed clash with federal troops in 2002.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/15/2004 12:30:33 AM ||
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These weapons were to be used by a small group as there are no large terrorist groups left in Chechnya.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
01/15/2004 17:34 Comments ||
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#2
These weapons were to be used by a small group as there are no large terrorist groups left in Chechnya.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
01/15/2004 17:34 Comments ||
Top||
No large illegal armed groups under single command have been left in Chechnya, Colonel General Valery Baranov, Commander of the Joint Army Group in the Northern Caucasus, has said in an interview with the Voenno-Promyshlenny Kurier (Military-Industrial Courier) weekly. According to Baranov, âthe militants changed their tactics radically.â
"I mean, like, they got out of Dodge!"
âThey are operating in small groups, which tend to be dispersed, and are avoiding open armed clashes,â he said.
Here's the dichotomy: a well-trained military force of, say, 100 men with beat the living crap out of a random group of tough guys approximately 100.00 percent of the time. This is why soldier armies always defeat warrior armies. In a one-on-one, however, the tough guys will beat the snot out of individual soldiers approximately 50 percent of the time, or even 60-40 if the tough guys are from a warrior culture. The same applies to small groups â under ten, or maybe up to a dozen. The only way warrior cultures (like the Chechens or Islamists in general) stand a chance of beating disciplined, professionally led armies is through breaking into small groups and going for attrition. The assumption there is that the warrior culture is capable of sustaining equal losses with the more civilized culture during the course of hostilities. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't...
Baranov set forth his understanding of the recent incident, when a gang of Chechen gunmen penetrated to Dagestan and was destroyed there. âIt was Ruslan Gelayevâs illegal armed unit, made up of 37 men. It was going from the Shatoi district of Chechnya to Georgia,â Baranov continued. In his opinion, âthe gang planned to go to Georgia for the purpose of creating special conditions on its territory during the elections. In other words, they planned to destabilise the situation there.â General Baranov pointed to the fact that the gang under the command of Ruslan Gelayev, who is now in Georgia, included foreign mercenaries. This is confirmed by the evidence given by the captured gunmen. âA gang was destroyed recently near the village of Serzhen-Yurt, which included mercenaries even from Western Europe. A ramified network of recruiters is functioning in the world. They recruit only real professionals, as a rule, former servicemen,â Baranov said.
I'm not sure that's a true statement. A lot of the cannon fodder we've seen recruited have been more in the street tough category...
Commenting on the prospects of capturing Maskhadov and Basayev, Baranov said it was just a matter of time. âI hope soon they will be captured. Now Chechnya is no place for Basayev and Maskhadov. This is why either they surrender voluntarily, or they will be destroyed,â he said.
I think I'd go for "destroyed," myself...
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/15/2004 12:29:10 AM ||
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#1
Oy, Dan.. would you mind terribly if I quoted you on that bit above, comparing and contrasting soldiers with warriors?
That's about the most succinct statement of an essential truth that I've EVER seen. It fits in well with an essay I've been working on for my own blog..
Ed Becerra
Posted by: Ed Becerra ||
01/15/2004 14:45 Comments ||
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#2
That was my deathless prose. I don't mind.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/15/2004 15:28 Comments ||
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#3
The trick to doing it right is to draft Comanche warriors and train them in the way of the Soldat. Or you could just stick with luring Rednecks and teach them the way of the team.
#4
Danke, Fred.. I'll post a link to my essay when it's finished.
Ed.
Posted by: Ed Becerra ||
01/15/2004 21:30 Comments ||
Top||
#5
Oy, Dan.. would you mind terribly if I quoted you on that bit above, comparing and contrasting soldiers with warriors?
That's about the most succinct statement of an essential truth that I've EVER seen. It fits in well with an essay I've been working on for my own blog..
Ed Becerra
Posted by: Ed Becerra ||
01/15/2004 14:45 Comments ||
Top||
#6
That was my deathless prose. I don't mind.
Posted by: Fred ||
01/15/2004 15:28 Comments ||
Top||
#7
The trick to doing it right is to draft Comanche warriors and train them in the way of the Soldat. Or you could just stick with luring Rednecks and teach them the way of the team.
REBEL attacks killed seven Russian soldiers in Chechnya and four others died when trying to defuse a land mine, officials said today. Six of the soldiers died as Russian military positions came under fire a total of 19 times over the previous 24 hours, said an official in the Kremlin-backed Chechen administration. Another was killed in clash with rebels near the village of Chiri-Yurt, at the edge of the foothills of the mountains where rebels take shelter, the official said. The official and Russian news reports said four sappers were killed when a land mine they were trying to defuse exploded in the Shatoi region deep in the mountains. Separatist rebels have used mines widely, often detonating them by remote control, in their fight against the Russians. The insurgents also mount near-daily hit-and-run attacks and fire on Russian positions. The larger and more heavily armed Russian forces attack suspected rebel positions by air and with artillery shelling, but have been unable to uproot the fighters from the mountains or purge them from Grozny, the Chechen capital, despite a massive military presence in the city.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/15/2004 12:27:20 AM ||
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Former Illinois Sen. Carol Moseley Braun, whose Democratic presidential campaign never got off the ground, will drop out of the race and endorse front-runner Howard Dean, campaign officials said Wednesday. Seeing as she had less of a chance of securing the nomination than me, OP and TGA, this is a good move.
Braun was to officially endorse the former Vermont governor Thursday afternoon during an appearance at Carroll High School in Caroll, Iowa, said Dean campaign manager Joe Trippi. Officials said Braun, the only woman but not the only flake in the nine-person field, approached Dean after a recent debate and told him she was considering leaving the race and backing him. She was supposed to neutralize Al Sharpton in the primaries. Good thinking, Dems.
One of two black candidates in the campaign, Braun is giving Dean her endorsement even as he has faced questions about his record on race issues, including his lack of minority Cabinet members during his five terms as Vermont governor. Braun jumped to Deanâs defense in a debate last Sunday when Al Sharpton accused the former governor of trivializing race issues just like he has. "Donât you go messinâ wit my man Howie!"
Braun never broke out of single digits in national surveys, didnât qualify for several state ballots and ran up thousand of dollars in campaign debt. Even her own campaign manager, Patricia Ireland, had said publicly there was no way Braun could win the nomination. Other than that, Carol, great campaign, Iâm sure Howie will send you back with New Zealand — with my blessing, I might add.
She leaves the race after making no impact on it, except for some pointless bright moments in the presidential debates. Another brilliant move by Terry McAulliffe. Wotta maroon.
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/15/2004 12:24:01 AM ||
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#1
She was on the Comedy Channel's Daily Show last night. I didn't watch it. Reading Rantberg is more fun.
#6
Seeing as she had less of a chance of securing the nomination than me, OP and TGA, this is a good move.
"If nominated, I will not run, if elected, I will not serve." Spoken by the last Democrat I could truly agree with!
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 13:00 Comments ||
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#7
the Black Community in Vermont, also known as 'Neal'
A one time (maybe still) 95 percent of the black vote in Wyoming came from 1 Laramie precinct - the University of Wyoming.
#14
Seeing as she had less of a chance of securing the nomination than me, OP and TGA, this is a good move.
"If nominated, I will not run, if elected, I will not serve." Spoken by the last Democrat I could truly agree with!
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 13:00 Comments ||
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#15
the Black Community in Vermont, also known as 'Neal'
A one time (maybe still) 95 percent of the black vote in Wyoming came from 1 Laramie precinct - the University of Wyoming.
He has told the terror organizations operating out of Damascus to lower their profile and ordered Syrian government spokesmen to moderate their rhetoric, Military Intelligence commander Maj. Gen. Aharon Zeevi-Farkash told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee yesterday. President Moshe Katsav meanwhile renewed his call for Assad to resume peace negotiations with Israel, whether in secret or in public and without prior conditions. In an interview with the Qatar-based Al Jazeera, Katsav said the invitation was aimed at testing Syriaâs "true intentions toward peace with Israel."
I think their true intention is to wiggle out of meeting Israelis face-to-face...
He said Syria should stop its support of the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah and other Palestinian militants in Damascus. He also noted Assad had made anti-Semitic remarks in the past and had taken advantage of his relations with Iran to smuggle weapons to Hezbollah. "This casts doubt over Syriaâs intentions for peace," he said.
If he did anything against Hezbollah, he'd stand a good chance of being dead.
But Zeâevi-Farkash said Assadâs latest remarks, mostly in Western press interviews, but also to visiting U.S. Senator Bill Nelson last week, show he is serious about his intentions and it has already created a "breach" in the "northern wall," meaning the Syrian-Iranian-Hezbollah connection. The countryâs top assessor of intelligence said the change in Syrian policy is a result of the war in Iraq, the American threat of economic sanctions, and the vehement Israeli response - the air attack on the terror camp near Damascus - to Syrian involvement in terror against Israel. Describing what he called the "cracking" of the relationship between Syria, Iran and Hezbollah, Zeâevi-Farkash called on the political echelon to exploit the opportunity to further weaken Hezbollah - but he stopped short of calling on the prime minister to respond positively to the Syrian overtures.
I thought Sharon had, by having Katsav issue the invitation, thereby giving Asshead the chance to make a fool of himself again...
When the general refused to answer Meretz MK Ran Cohenâs question if he had recommended to Sharon to seek dialogue with Assad, Cohen said, "If you did not recommend that, as the one responsible for the national assessment, you failed. If you recommended it and the prime minister did not accept the recommendation, itâs Sharonâs political and security irresponsibility." Zeâevi-Farkash confirmed the reports of Syrian rescue planes to Iran after the Bam earthquake returning with arms for the Hezbollah. He said those reports "burned some intelligence sources," and decried Israel being "a state of leakers with a culture of leaking." Zeâevi-Farkash explained to the MKs that a weak Syria depends on terror, indeed, "itâs critical" for Assad as a way to wield influence.
"It ain't like he's driving an economic powerhouse up there..."
Zeâevi-Farkash turned to the Palestinian front, saying that Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia has effectively relinquished the few powers he held, and that PA Chairman Yasser Arafat was the absolute ruler in the territories. He described the current situation in the PA as "anarchy," adding that Arafat is unwilling to crack down on terror attacks against Israel, is blocking reform of the PA and continues to fund the Al-Aqsa Martyrsâ Brigades. He also added that Qureiaâs policy is one of sustaining the status quo. According to the military intelligence commander, PA Finance Minister Salam Fayyad sends $6-7 million a month to Arafatâs office for its administration. As for the current level of terrorism, the military intelligence commanders said that all the terror groups are organizing to conduct attacks and that the relative quiet is deceptive. Even if Hamas is restraining itself and not conducting attacks inside Israel, there are people pressing for attacks.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/15/2004 12:22:24 AM ||
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#1
I'm sorry. I just cannot take him seriously. I keep pronouncing his name "Ass Head" or "Ass Hat" in my mind.
#2
Actually, Spook, I tend to think of him as "that pathetic Trekkie wanna-be."
If memory serves, back before they ended, Baby Assad got himself a guest shot on one of the Star Trek series. Looked as pathetic and inept in a StarFleet uniform as he does in charge of a country.
I'll have to find a photo. But I seem to recall him standing there in an ensign's uniform, looking vaguely "Uhhhh.. what's my line? I've forgotten my line! Oh, God, I've forgotten my line!"-ish..
Ed
Posted by: Ed Becerra ||
01/15/2004 3:52 Comments ||
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#3
That was then Prince Abdullah of Jordon, son of King Hussein.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
01/15/2004 5:42 Comments ||
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#4
So, there IS (are?) arabs in "Star Trek", after all!
#6
Actually, Spook, I tend to think of him as "that pathetic Trekkie wanna-be."
If memory serves, back before they ended, Baby Assad got himself a guest shot on one of the Star Trek series. Looked as pathetic and inept in a StarFleet uniform as he does in charge of a country.
I'll have to find a photo. But I seem to recall him standing there in an ensign's uniform, looking vaguely "Uhhhh.. what's my line? I've forgotten my line! Oh, God, I've forgotten my line!"-ish..
Ed
Posted by: Ed Becerra ||
01/15/2004 3:52 Comments ||
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#7
That was then Prince Abdullah of Jordon, son of King Hussein.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
01/15/2004 5:42 Comments ||
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#8
So, there IS (are?) arabs in "Star Trek", after all!
US and British intelligence services are investigating a series of alleged al Qaeda internet warnings predicting a terror attack which would "destroy an entire American city". The messages, posted on a number of Islamic websites over the last week, say the countdown to attack has already begun. They claimed it would be "an even stronger strike than nuclear weapons".
They also warn that unless the US and its allies withdraw immediately from Iraq, Afghanistan, and all other Muslim countries, the terror network has ordered the elimination of American leaders and their supporters. The post of most concern to Western intelligence has appeared three times in three days on a radical Islamic internet forum called the Mujahideen Network. It claimed to be "from the Islamic nation to the American people" and boasted that its forces now had the ability to wipe out an entire city.
A security source said last night: "There is no way of determining whether these warnings are genuine or wishful thinking on the part of extremists. But there are disturbing parallels with the background threat-level chatter which preceded the September 11 attacks in 2001." The investigation came as the UN said almost 100 countries should be "named and shamed" for failing to enforce international sanctions against known members of al Qaeda and its Taliban allies and to block the flow of money and arms to the groups.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/15/2004 12:08:59 AM ||
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#1
There are far more impressive, and less disturbing, parallels with many other empty threats they've released over the last couple of years. In general terms, the more spectacular the threat, the less there is likely to be to it.
(And what in hell would be "an even stronger strike than nuclear weapons"?) Short of release of an infectious biowarfare agent or direct intervention by Allah, it's hard to see what they might be fantasizing about.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste ||
01/15/2004 1:16 Comments ||
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#2
My guess FWIIW is homicide (suicide) bombers or shooters on rooftops with automatic weapons, at political rallies with the aim of disrupting the 2004 elections and killing prominent politicians. Of course it won't work, but remember these guys have a limited grasp of how free societies work.
#3
I don't doubt the jihadists have big plans, and have prepared accordingly. However, it would seem that the WOT has seriously disrupted their operations, thus forcing them to regroup, all the while the while seething in the short-term. Now....if my address was somewhere in the EU....well then I might be a tad more concerned.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
01/15/2004 2:46 Comments ||
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#4
"A stronger strike than a nuclear weapon", that would "destroy an entire American city" Hmm... the only thing that comes to mind is a bioweapons attack, or photon torpedos.
Posted by: Ben ||
01/15/2004 4:56 Comments ||
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#5
"A stronger strike than a nuclear weapon", that would "destroy an entire American city" Hmm... the only thing that comes to mind is a bioweapons attack, or photon torpedos.
The city's Detroit the bioweapon is the birthrate.
#7
US and British intelligence services are investigating a series of alleged al Qaeda internet warnings predicting a terror attack which would "destroy an entire American city".
The messages, posted on a number of Islamic websites over the last week, say the countdown to attack has already begun.
They claimed it would be "an even stronger strike than nuclear weapons".
#14
Depending on what they do (if anything), I wonder what the US reaction would be? IF there was a suitcase nuke strike against a US city, it would do immense damage to a small area, and make a larger area virtually uninhabitable for a period of time afterwards. Blowing up New York would NOT be a good idea. Tit for tat would require us totally destroying the top ten "holy sites" in the Middle East, with the exception of Jerusalem, which isn't exactly a MUSLIM holy site. Since it's Haj season, the number of dead from a 10-megaton nuclear strike on Mecca could be catastrophic, and affect as many as a hundred different countries. A similar smack on Qom, Medina, Jedda, Damascus, et. cetera, would also make an impression. "An eye for an eye" is ok as long as the two parties are on equal footing. One whose cultural, scientific, and core-value system and beliefs based in the 7th century, fighting with stolen 20th century weapons against another that actually CREATED those weapons, and knows how to use them the best, would be nasty, nasty.
It's time for the Muslim community to take responsibility for the actions of those within their community. If they fail to do that, the West should ensure they also share in the consequences meted out to those who cause pain and suffering in Western nations.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 14:21 Comments ||
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#15
They mention "destruction" of a city. A bio or chem-weapons strike would not destroy infrastructure, just people. Nuclear weapons are still the best for destruction. What do they have that's better?
#17
Let me play the contrarian. In spite of the hyperbolic ranting of the Islamofascists, remember the anthrax sent to the two senators? It was militarized to a degree more deadly than any military anthrax our bioweapons people have ever seen. Normal room currents caused the coated spores to waft off the microscope slides when attempting to study them.
IIRC, Laurie Mylroie thought the anthrax attack was an Iraqi test to see if we blamed al Qaeda or Iraq, possibly to clear the way for a full scale attack.
But our FBI seems to have done a "Richard Jewell" redux by going after the closest fit to their profile -- an "angry white male" with biochemistry credentials -- Steven Hatfill.
With such high grade "waftable" anthrax, a light plane -- not a crop duster -- would be adaquate to do the dirty deed. I don't know how Tom Ridge sleeps.
#18
There are far more impressive, and less disturbing, parallels with many other empty threats they've released over the last couple of years. In general terms, the more spectacular the threat, the less there is likely to be to it.
(And what in hell would be "an even stronger strike than nuclear weapons"?) Short of release of an infectious biowarfare agent or direct intervention by Allah, it's hard to see what they might be fantasizing about.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste ||
01/15/2004 1:16 Comments ||
Top||
#19
My guess FWIIW is homicide (suicide) bombers or shooters on rooftops with automatic weapons, at political rallies with the aim of disrupting the 2004 elections and killing prominent politicians. Of course it won't work, but remember these guys have a limited grasp of how free societies work.
#20
I don't doubt the jihadists have big plans, and have prepared accordingly. However, it would seem that the WOT has seriously disrupted their operations, thus forcing them to regroup, all the while the while seething in the short-term. Now....if my address was somewhere in the EU....well then I might be a tad more concerned.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
01/15/2004 2:46 Comments ||
Top||
#21
"A stronger strike than a nuclear weapon", that would "destroy an entire American city" Hmm... the only thing that comes to mind is a bioweapons attack, or photon torpedos.
Posted by: Ben ||
01/15/2004 4:56 Comments ||
Top||
#22
"A stronger strike than a nuclear weapon", that would "destroy an entire American city" Hmm... the only thing that comes to mind is a bioweapons attack, or photon torpedos.
The city's Detroit the bioweapon is the birthrate.
#24
US and British intelligence services are investigating a series of alleged al Qaeda internet warnings predicting a terror attack which would "destroy an entire American city".
The messages, posted on a number of Islamic websites over the last week, say the countdown to attack has already begun.
They claimed it would be "an even stronger strike than nuclear weapons".
#31
Depending on what they do (if anything), I wonder what the US reaction would be? IF there was a suitcase nuke strike against a US city, it would do immense damage to a small area, and make a larger area virtually uninhabitable for a period of time afterwards. Blowing up New York would NOT be a good idea. Tit for tat would require us totally destroying the top ten "holy sites" in the Middle East, with the exception of Jerusalem, which isn't exactly a MUSLIM holy site. Since it's Haj season, the number of dead from a 10-megaton nuclear strike on Mecca could be catastrophic, and affect as many as a hundred different countries. A similar smack on Qom, Medina, Jedda, Damascus, et. cetera, would also make an impression. "An eye for an eye" is ok as long as the two parties are on equal footing. One whose cultural, scientific, and core-value system and beliefs based in the 7th century, fighting with stolen 20th century weapons against another that actually CREATED those weapons, and knows how to use them the best, would be nasty, nasty.
It's time for the Muslim community to take responsibility for the actions of those within their community. If they fail to do that, the West should ensure they also share in the consequences meted out to those who cause pain and suffering in Western nations.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 14:21 Comments ||
Top||
#32
They mention "destruction" of a city. A bio or chem-weapons strike would not destroy infrastructure, just people. Nuclear weapons are still the best for destruction. What do they have that's better?
#34
Let me play the contrarian. In spite of the hyperbolic ranting of the Islamofascists, remember the anthrax sent to the two senators? It was militarized to a degree more deadly than any military anthrax our bioweapons people have ever seen. Normal room currents caused the coated spores to waft off the microscope slides when attempting to study them.
IIRC, Laurie Mylroie thought the anthrax attack was an Iraqi test to see if we blamed al Qaeda or Iraq, possibly to clear the way for a full scale attack.
But our FBI seems to have done a "Richard Jewell" redux by going after the closest fit to their profile -- an "angry white male" with biochemistry credentials -- Steven Hatfill.
With such high grade "waftable" anthrax, a light plane -- not a crop duster -- would be adaquate to do the dirty deed. I don't know how Tom Ridge sleeps.
The F.B.I. director, Robert S. Mueller III, said on Wednesday that terrorists would "quite probably" strike the United States again and that Al Qaeda remained a major threat despite the lowering of the nationâs threat status last week. "Al Qaeda would very much relish another high-profile attack within the United States in which numerous U.S. citizens would be killed," Mr. Mueller told reporters at a luncheon meeting sponsored by The Christian Science Monitor. "We have disrupted their capability, but there are still persons out there who have that capability."
The sobering assessment echoed comments that he and other officials like Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge have made in recent months. After three weeks of intense concerns about the threat of a hijacked airliner or other terrorist attack, the Bush administration lowered the threat level on Friday to yellow, or "elevated" status. But, Mr. Mueller said, "We are still in a position where we have substantial concern about an attack from Al Qaeda," based on intelligence from the United States and overseas. "We quite probably will at some point in time have another attack."
Mr. Mueller said he saw reason for optimism because of improved sharing and analysis of intelligence, cooperation from allies and the captures of leading Qaeda figures. But much to the frustration of American officials, the two senior leaders of Al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden and his chief lieutenant, Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri, have eluded capture since the United States uprooted the Taliban from Afghanistan in 2001. Most intelligence officials say they believe that the two are hiding on the Afghan-Pakistani border. Mr. Mueller acknowledged that the remote terrain of Afghanistan and northwestern Pakistan made it exceptionally difficult to hunt for Mr. bin Laden. "Itâs somewhat like finding a needle in a haystack," he said. Even so, he added that American officials had made progress in pursuing Mr. bin Laden. "I am confident that we will find him," Mr. Mueller said.
No matter what you do, there's never a 100 percent defense. As Hamid Gul once stated, "It's not that difficult to obtain a suitcase-size nuclear weapon. Just the thing for retaliation against London or New York." In the end, all you can do is ensure that if they do, they'll wish they hadn't.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
01/15/2004 12:06:02 AM ||
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Syrian Prime Minister Naji al-Atari has said there is no hope for peace with Israel under the hardline government of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
Guess they weren't serious. Tell 'em to piss off...
Al-Atari described an invitation by Israeli President Moshe Katsav to Syria's President Bashar al-Assad to visit Jerusalem as a "propaganda invitation" and "media manoeuvre".
Hey, you guys were the ones demanding peace talks...
"There is no hope under this Zionist administration for achieving just and comprehensive peace," al-Atari told reporters in Damascus on Wednesday.
"So why even discuss the matter?"
Katsav offered Syria peace negotiations in "secret or public" without pre-conditions on Tuesday. Speaking on Aljazeera television, the Israeli president said on they would be willing to change the venue of possible talks. Damascus wants to resume talks from where they broke off at Shepherdstown in 2000. Those negotiations ended without an agreement on the future of the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights overlooking the Sea of Galilee, Israel's biggest reservoir. Syria demands a complete withdrawal from the Golan, which Israel occupied during the 1967 Arab-Israeli war. Israel annexed the strategic plateau in 1981, drawing international criticism. Sharon opposes any withdrawal from the Golan.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
01/15/2004 23:10 ||
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A Border Police unit has caught a Palestinian terrorist near Tulkarm on the West Bank. According to reports on Army Radio, the Palestinian was on his way to perpetrate a shooting attack at a nearby settlement â and was caught with a Kalashnikov rifle and several ammunition clips. The unit handed the Palestinian over to the General Security Service (Shabak) for questioning.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
01/15/2004 23:10 ||
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Israel's military has captured Palestinian insurgency commanders of a major West Bank city. Military sources said an Israeli force captured the commanders of the ruling Fatah militia, Hamas and Islamic Jihad in a search operation in the Tulkarm refugee camp. The camp is located near the old 1967 border and insurgency groups have recruited Palestinians for suicide attacks within Israel. "These arrests mean the prevention of something like 5-10 attacks within Israel," an Israeli military commander said. The Fatah commander was identified as Hisham Al Louisi. The sources said he sent suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli targets.
Seems like there's always more commanders to pick up, doesn't it?
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
01/15/2004 23:10 ||
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#1
Doesn't mean they're very good commanders though.
Posted by: Charles ||
01/15/2004 2:56 Comments ||
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#2
unfortunately they're good enough. and expendible. and replaceable.
Dissident Venezuelan Generals, Edgar Bolivar and Oscar Marquez contend that the Venezuelan government continues to violate the human rights of rebel Generals that occupied Plaza Francia in Altamira (Caracas) in November, 2002. "The most persecuted officers are National Guard (GN) General Carlos Alfonso Martinez, Felipe Rodriguez, Colonel Yuccepe Pillery, Captains Alfredo and Ricardo Salazar Bohorquez ... other officers, such as Lieutenants German Varela and Juvenal Mora are in exile because there is no guarantee of a fair trial." The government's alleged harassment, Bolivar says, has forced the officers to keep a low profile but they continue to meet in citizen assemblies and support Coordinadora Democratica (CD) initiatives. General Marquez accuses the government of torturing minor officials and witnesses to obtain confessions and says he is writing a book about the events of April 11, 2002.
The dissident Generals' statement has meantime been eclipsed by declarations of dissident officers in Miami during a local TV show. Milking the Cuban anti-Communist cow for all its worth, Venezuelan Air Force (ret.) Colonel Silvino Bustillos and Sergeant Luis Pina have said they fully agree with a US military invasion of Venezuela to topple the Chavez Frias administration and stop the process of change. On the "Maria Elvira Confronta" show, Pina has claimed that 80% of Venezuelan citizens would support a US Marine military intervention in Venezuela. Bustillos has ratified Pina's view on the Descalzi vs. Brown show, calling on OAS military forces to join a US intervention. www.aporrea.com claims that Coordinadora Democratic (CD) "roving diplomats" held talks over the Christmas period with US State Department officials, such as Undersecretary for Western Hemisphere Affairs, Roger Noriega and special adviser, Otto Reich preparing the way for the latest round of diplomatic sniping tactics.
This is from a pro-Chavez site. Hugo continues to view the yankees with alarm. I've no idea how much the people are actually buying the story...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
01/15/2004 23:10 ||
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#1
80% of Venezuelan citizens would support a US Marine military intervention in Venezuela.
Kinda choosy aren't they? The Coast Guards gonna be unhappy with this.
South African President Thabo Mbeki was hospitalised on Sunday night after he complained of breathlessnes, his spokesperson said on Monday. Presidential spokesperson Bheki Khumalo said Mbeki was rushed to hospital after he complained of breathing problem after addressing supporters of the ruling African National Congress in Pietermaritzburg, about 100km from Durban, on Sunday. "Apparently the breathing failure was caused by something that he had eaten earlier in the day. He was treated by medical experts for a few hours and he was declared fit and strong to resume his duties," he said. Khumalo said he had spoken to the President twice during the night and Mbeki told him that he was "fit and strong" to continue with his presidential duties. "In fact this morning he will go to the office of the ANC in Johannesburg and thereafter prepare to travel to the Congo where he and other leaders will spend the next days to help the country", he said.
Time to put Thabo into the Dead Pool?
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
01/15/2004 23:09 ||
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The Muslim Brotherhood has encountered difficulties in appointing a prominent cleric to head the largest Sunni Muslim organization in the Middle East and could settle for an avowed Al Qaida supporter.
Oh, that's going to make them look even better...
Islamic sources said the Brotherhood's Guidance Council has been turned down in efforts to woo leading Sunni clerics outside of Egypt to head the Brotherhood. They said the 15-member council has approached Egyptian clerics both within and outside Egypt. "Inside Egypt, the prominent people are extremely old and outside Egypt many of the clerics are fugitives," an Islamic source who follows the organization said. "There are not many choices."
Wonder if Captain Hook is in the running?
The search was launched in wake of the death of Brotherhood spiritual leader, known as general guide, Mamoun El Hodeiby. El Hodeiby's deputy, Mohammed Hilal, has been appointed to serve as caretaker until a leader is chosen in March. The sources expect the Guidance Council to pick a successor and the 86-member Shura Council to confirm the choice.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
01/15/2004 23:09 ||
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#1
Jimma Carter?
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
01/15/2004 0:07 Comments ||
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Posted by: homer jay ||
01/15/2004 1:09 Comments ||
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#4
How about Comical Ali....y'know, that Iraqi Information Minister? He's got plenty of experience spouting off total bullsh*t, and I think he's still looking for a steady gig. I'm sure he can put together a pretty good audition tape if they want it.
#7
They need someone completely amoral, totally ruthless, able to lie out of both sides of his mouth, and with proven ranting abilty. I nominate James Carville, Prince of Darkness.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 8:22 Comments ||
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#8
the fact that "many of the clerics are fugitives" is a positive note
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/15/2004 9:10 Comments ||
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#9
have they considered retaining an Executive Search firm?
#10
We have a winner! CAIRO, January 14 â Mohammad Mahdi Akef has been elected Wednesday, January 14, as the new guide-general for the Muslim Brotherhood following a secret vote, IslamOnline.net can confirm. Nine of the group's guidance bureau 15 members voted in favor of Akef. Abudl Monem Abol Fotouh, a leading Muslim Brotherhood member, told IOL on Monday, January 12, the group would hold a secret vote for choosing the new guide-general in an unprecedented move against earlier decisions to fill the post through referendums.
The new guide-general is a specialist in physical education. He jointed the Muslim Brotherhood in 1948 before the assassination of the group's first guide-general. Akef was sentenced to death, then commuted to hard labor, on charges of involvement in a failed assassination attempt on the life of late Egyptian President Gamal Abdul Naser in Alexandria, in 1954. In 1974, he was released from jail. He left for Germany in 1980, where he ran the group's Islamic center. In 1986, Akef returned home to head the youths department in the group. One year later, he was elected to the Egyptian parliament and served till 1990.
Akef ran for parliamentary elections in 1995 and 2000 as independent but failed to make it again.
He is currently the Muslim Brotherhood liaison official with the Muslim world.
He's 75, they went with the young guy this time.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 14:53 Comments ||
Top||
#11
More good news: An Al Qaida supporter has been chosen to assume the leadership of Egypt's largest Muslim opposition group. Mohammed Mahdi Akef, who replaces the late Mamoun El Hodeiby, was chosen Wednesday in a 9-6 vote by the Guidance Council, which approves candidates for leadership positions. The 75-year-old Akef has been termed a Brotherhood hardliner who has rejected reconciliation with the regime of President Hosni Mubarak and religious rights for Egypt's Coptic Christian minority.
"I have not prepared any plan or agenda because I didn't expect to be selected," Akef said in a statement.
Akef's appointment must undergo confirmation by the 86-member Shura Council of the Brotherhood. Islamic sources said the council made its selection within a week of El Hodeiby's death in an effort to quash rumors that the Brotherhood was divided over the appointment of a new leader. They said the selection of Akef and his deputy, Mohammed Habib, indicates that the movement will maintain its cautious policies over the next few years.
Picking a hardline al-Qaida supporter is cautious?
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 15:02 Comments ||
Top||
#12
luke the Troll is going to be sooooo heartbroken! He had a shot at a real job for once!
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 21:15 Comments ||
Top||
#13
Jimma Carter?
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
01/15/2004 0:07 Comments ||
Top||
Posted by: homer jay ||
01/15/2004 1:09 Comments ||
Top||
#16
How about Comical Ali....y'know, that Iraqi Information Minister? He's got plenty of experience spouting off total bullsh*t, and I think he's still looking for a steady gig. I'm sure he can put together a pretty good audition tape if they want it.
#19
They need someone completely amoral, totally ruthless, able to lie out of both sides of his mouth, and with proven ranting abilty. I nominate James Carville, Prince of Darkness.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 8:22 Comments ||
Top||
#20
the fact that "many of the clerics are fugitives" is a positive note
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/15/2004 9:10 Comments ||
Top||
#21
have they considered retaining an Executive Search firm?
#22
We have a winner! CAIRO, January 14 â Mohammad Mahdi Akef has been elected Wednesday, January 14, as the new guide-general for the Muslim Brotherhood following a secret vote, IslamOnline.net can confirm. Nine of the group's guidance bureau 15 members voted in favor of Akef. Abudl Monem Abol Fotouh, a leading Muslim Brotherhood member, told IOL on Monday, January 12, the group would hold a secret vote for choosing the new guide-general in an unprecedented move against earlier decisions to fill the post through referendums.
The new guide-general is a specialist in physical education. He jointed the Muslim Brotherhood in 1948 before the assassination of the group's first guide-general. Akef was sentenced to death, then commuted to hard labor, on charges of involvement in a failed assassination attempt on the life of late Egyptian President Gamal Abdul Naser in Alexandria, in 1954. In 1974, he was released from jail. He left for Germany in 1980, where he ran the group's Islamic center. In 1986, Akef returned home to head the youths department in the group. One year later, he was elected to the Egyptian parliament and served till 1990.
Akef ran for parliamentary elections in 1995 and 2000 as independent but failed to make it again.
He is currently the Muslim Brotherhood liaison official with the Muslim world.
He's 75, they went with the young guy this time.
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 14:53 Comments ||
Top||
#23
More good news: An Al Qaida supporter has been chosen to assume the leadership of Egypt's largest Muslim opposition group. Mohammed Mahdi Akef, who replaces the late Mamoun El Hodeiby, was chosen Wednesday in a 9-6 vote by the Guidance Council, which approves candidates for leadership positions. The 75-year-old Akef has been termed a Brotherhood hardliner who has rejected reconciliation with the regime of President Hosni Mubarak and religious rights for Egypt's Coptic Christian minority.
"I have not prepared any plan or agenda because I didn't expect to be selected," Akef said in a statement.
Akef's appointment must undergo confirmation by the 86-member Shura Council of the Brotherhood. Islamic sources said the council made its selection within a week of El Hodeiby's death in an effort to quash rumors that the Brotherhood was divided over the appointment of a new leader. They said the selection of Akef and his deputy, Mohammed Habib, indicates that the movement will maintain its cautious policies over the next few years.
Picking a hardline al-Qaida supporter is cautious?
Posted by: Steve ||
01/15/2004 15:02 Comments ||
Top||
#24
luke the Troll is going to be sooooo heartbroken! He had a shot at a real job for once!
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
01/15/2004 21:15 Comments ||
Top||
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
