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International-UN-NGOs
Most Germans think Europe can defend itself without US help: Poll
2018-07-24
[AlAhram] More than half of Germans think Europe
...also known as Moslem Lebensraum...
can defend itself without military backing from the United States, a poll showed on Monday,
...quitting NATO makes sense in that scenario. But against whom might they be defending?
less than two weeks after U.S. President Donald Trump
...New York real estate developer, described by Dems as illiterate, racist, misogynistic, and what ever other unpleasant descriptions they can think of, elected by the rest of us as 45th President of the United States...
 said he could withdraw support. Only 37 percent of respondents said they believed Europe depended on U.S. military help, the Forsa poll showed.

The survey found no significant difference between eastern German regions and western areas, which have stronger historical ties to the United States. In the east, 60 percent thought Europe did not need Washington, and in the west, 55 percent.

Trump gave an ultimatum to European allies on July 12, warning a NATO
...the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Originally it was a mutual defense pact directed against an expansionist Soviet Union. In later years it evolved into a mechanism for picking the American pocket while criticizing the cut of the American pants...
 summit the United States could withdraw its support if Europe did not share more of what he called an unfair burden on U.S. taxpayers in funding the alliance.

In a rebuke to German Chancellor Angela Merkel
...chancellor of Germany and the impetus behind Germany's remarkably ill-starred immigration program. Merkel used to be referred to by Germans as Mom. Now they make faces at her for inundating the country with Moslems ..
, he also called Germany a "captive" of Moscow because, he said, Berlin supported a Baltic Sea gas pipeline from Russia.

About 84 percent of respondents said Trump's comments about Russia controlling Germany were "completely absurd", according to the poll which surveyed 1,004 Germans.

Even more - 92 percent - said they suspected that Trump's motive for making the comments was primarily to promote the sale of U.S. liquefied gas in Europe and Germany.

Two thirds said they supported the construction of the Nord Stream 2 Baltic Sea pipeline because it would help provide Germany with a more reliable supply of natural gas.
Posted by:trailing wife

#23  #18 I'm serious. Should we expect a Russian invasion of Poland, with a march to the Rhine?

Ask Ukraine.
Posted by: bbrewer126   2018-07-24 21:11  

#22  First of all, the German troops in Afghanistan have such restricted ROE as to be useless.

Second, we shouldn't be in Afghanistan at all. Trump tried to pull us out only to be blocked by the military industrial complex, which doesn't want their profitable war to stop.

Third, that's whataboutism that does not address the inexplicable American subsidies for wealthy First World nations.

Pay for your own defense. You can easily afford it.
Posted by: Herb McCoy   2018-07-24 15:49  

#21  If you let enemy #1 into your borders, give them big checks to live on and tolerate it when they rape your people defense; and by the bulk of your energy from enemy #2, it may be a bit too late anyway.

The real question is will we allow German refugees in when the time comes. I'm Kind of thinking if it gets to that, that they had their chance and Darwin selected them out.
Posted by: rjschwarz   2018-07-24 15:17  

#20  Really. Then why did the US invoke Chapter 5 in 2001? Why are German troops in Afghanistan? Defending Germany?
Posted by: European Conservative   2018-07-24 13:59  

#19  Threats in North Africa and the Middle East? What threats? Those aren't threats. Those are meddling opportunities.

NATO was formed to deal with Russia. Russia isn't a threat any more, get rid of NATO. End of story. Close the bases, bring the troops home, spend the money on ourselves instead. Why should we be paying for the defense of people who refuse to pay for themselves?

Oh, I get it. The Middle East and North Africa are threats to Europe, which need to be paid for by America. Yeah, fuck that noise. Pay for it yourselves, you ungrateful jerks.
Posted by: Herb McCoy   2018-07-24 13:56  

#18  I'm serious. Should we expect a Russian invasion of Poland, with a march to the Rhine? Highly unlikely. Which means that NATO needs to redefine itself. The Russian threat is slow destabilization of Europe, not an open attack. The weapons against this are not the same.

NATO is much more likely to be a fast and mean intervention force to counter threats wherever they may arise. Much more likely North Africa and the Middle East.
Posted by: European Conservative   2018-07-24 13:35  

#17  See? Exactly. No enemies about. No enemies means you don't need a military. It's win-win for everyone!

USA out of NATO. Bring the troops home. Not to Poland, not to the Middle East. Home. Spend the savings on our own people, who badly need it.
Posted by: Herb McCoy   2018-07-24 13:24  

#16  If what is not known then there is no reason for them to be in something like NATO because they obvious miss totally Mattis's point of: “be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet"
Posted by: 3dc   2018-07-24 12:56  

#15  It's a BS question. Defend itself against what exactly?
Posted by: European Conservative   2018-07-24 12:41  

#14  so Jack... you seem to be 3 for 3...trying for a record? or your pantyfa merit badge?
Posted by: Mercutio   2018-07-24 10:57  

#13  Can definitely see Germany and Russia divvying up Europe again and with the same tragic consequences.

German society is no longer in a conquering mindset — look at the current shortage of men and women willing to put on the uniform. Should the current invasion of Germany be successful, that will be a different story, but Russia would not be conniving to divide the continent with a caliphate. Russia would be allying with Poland and America to reconquer it.
Posted by: trailing wife   2018-07-24 10:33  

#12  yep - for all of 10 minutes
Posted by: Rex Mundi   2018-07-24 10:12  

#11  Lessee... this would be the Bundeswehr? The German national army that had troops drilling with sticks a while back because they didn't have enough rifles? Of course, the sticks WERE painted black... that's gotta count for something.
Posted by: Mercutio   2018-07-24 08:33  

#10  Not to Poland, to the southern border. Why are we worried about thousands of miles away, when the first mile of our own territory is breached?

...quitting NATO makes sense in that scenario. But against whom might they be defending?

The Poles? I recall a Polish army reaching Vienna to deal with another Islamic invasion (BTW, seems the Bavarians and Austrians were in that one too dealing with the pillagers, looters and the like).
Posted by: Procopius2k   2018-07-24 07:23  

#9  We should make it clear to the people of Germany that in making this critical choice they understand that the people and nation of the USA will never pick up their pieces when they fuck it up again like they always do.
Posted by: 3dc   2018-07-24 05:46  

#8  Even more - 92 percent - said they suspected that Trump's motive for making the comments was primarily to promote the sale of U.S. liquefied gas in Europe and Germany.

We'd rather burn it at home. Better yet, ban the import of German cars and aircraft and they won't need so much Russian gas.
Posted by: Lumpy Turkeyneck8453   2018-07-24 05:22  

#7  Can definitely see Germany and Russia divvying up Europe again and with the same tragic consequences.
Posted by: Lumpy Turkeyneck8453   2018-07-24 05:20  

#6  Most other Europeans think they need the US to defend against Germany (again).
Posted by: Bright Pebbles   2018-07-24 04:38  

#5  not while spending 1% on defense.
Posted by: Bright Pebbles   2018-07-24 04:07  

#4  Can and will are two different things.
Posted by: Lumpy Turkeyneck8453   2018-07-24 04:04  

#3  I stopped after "Most Germans think".
Posted by: g(r)omgoru   2018-07-24 00:44  

#2  I'd say move a good chunk of them to Poland and bring the rest back to be deployed somewhere on the US / Mexican border with shoot to kill orders.
Posted by: Raj   2018-07-24 00:43  

#1  Good news, good news. More support for us to get the hell out of there. Close the bases and bring the troops home. Europeans can well afford to defend themselves.
Posted by: Herb McCoy   2018-07-24 00:35  

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