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| India-Pakistan |
| Pakistanis wonder what more they can do in war on militancy |
| 2011-10-14 |
| [Dawn] When Pakistain Army Sergeant Abdur Rehman hears America's oft-repeated demand that Pakistain do more to fight jihad boys, he glances down at the stumps of his legs and wonders what more it wants from him. A mortar bomb shredded him from the waist down as he led an advance against Taliban fighters in 2007 in Pakistain's unruly northwestern tribal areas on the Afghan border. Instead of enjoying full retirement benefits, he underwent rehabilitation, was given artificial limbs and returned as a commander to a desk job in the jihad boy-infested region where he was maimed. "What more can Paks do?," asked Rehman, 35. That question has often strained ties between Washington and Islamabad, but it has been posed far more frequently since US special forces killed the late Osama bin Laden ... who had a brief but splitting headache... in May in a Pak town, where he had apparently been living for years. Admiral Mike Mullen said before retiring as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff last month that a jihad boy group that had attacked US targets in Afghanistan was a "veritable arm" of Pak intelligence. Then President Barack B.O.Obama put Pakistain on notice that it must go after Islamic fascisti or risk severing ties to the United States, the source of billions of dollars in aid. Pakistain denies links with jihad boy groups and says it has sacrificed more than any other country that joined the US "war on terror" after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks. Officials say more than 3,000 Pak soldiers have been killed, greater than the combined corpse count among NATO ...the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. A cautionary tale of cost-benefit analysis.... forces in Afghanistan. Nearly 10,000 have been maimed. "Imagine how the US would react if such a number had bit the dust and then comments would come from other countries, which said that, 'You are the problem, you are part of the problem'," Pak Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar said in an interview with an American radio programme. For the relatives of soldiers killed in battles against the jihad boys, the charges are especially outrageous. Living on memories Captain Omerzeb Afzal Baig and two other soldiers died in the prime of their lives when their vehicle was blown apart in May 2009 by a remote-controlled roadside kaboom planted by the Taliban. His father sits proudly in the family living room beside a large photograph of Omerzeb in military gear, taken two hours before his death in a quick reactionary force mission he had volunteered to lead. "Look at his smartness, look at the way he is smiling, right in the battlefield area. Look at the way that he is all prepared," said Muhammad Afzal Baig, himself a retired colonel. "Do you see anything like worries on his face? Not a single wrinkle. He is all prepared; he is fully charged, and that is what a Pak soldier is made of." The United States wants Pakistain to crack down on Islamic fascisti who cross its border to attack Western forces in Afghanistan. But although it has one of the largest militaries in the world, Islamabad says its hands are full fighting Islamic fascisti who attack government and civilian targets in Pakistain. At a military rehabilitation hospital in the garrison city of Rawalpindi, amputees are surprisingly frank about how vulnerable troops have become to the Talibs, described as masters of guerrilla warfare, with plenty of firepower and precision. "You just don't know what to expect. When you launch an attack they can hit you from any side," said wheelchair-bound private Zaheer Abbas, recalling how he flew up in the air after stepping on a home-made Taliban bomb. "Everyday, they are growing in number. The situation is getting worse." Paralysis Critics say Pakistain is partly to blame for the chaos because it nurtured jihad boy groups for years and used them as proxies in Afghanistan or against rival India -- creating a Frankenstein in its own back yard. Pak officials blame US policies -- such as the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan -- for the instability. Thousands of Islamic fascisti fled from Afghanistan to northwest Pakistain at that time and formed alliances with other fighters. Nowadays, Islamabad complains that Washington is ungrateful no matter how many losses Pakistain suffers battling Islamic fascisti in the border region. Many of its soldiers are determined to see the battle through. Ansar Javed for instance. During a three-hour battle to reach a Taliban position in May, the 24-year-old slowly made his way up a mountain, dodging incoming rockets and grenades. Then, in an instant, a sniper's bullet struck the front of his neck, causing paralysis from the waist down. He is barely able to move his arms and has no control over his bowels. "We are doing everything we can. We have to finish them off," he said, speaking from a hospital bed. "We don't need anyone's help," he added bitterly. The tense alliance between the two nations is likely to come under more stress, with stepped up demands from the United States for Pakistain to take decisive action against jihad boys. |
| Posted by:Fred |
| #29 I've been guilty of continuing to make my point too long. I'd suggest you review the thread. We got it. |
| Posted by: Frank G 2011-10-14 23:46 |
| #28 lotp. I wasn't actually referring to the initial pushback. Your point was made. I'm talking about the extended comments. |
| Posted by: Frank G 2011-10-14 23:44 |
| #27 A little less sensitivity in Mod reaction might be appropriate... Especially when what's at stake are the allegedly hurt feelings of a man who has called for an official policy of military atrocities against Afghan villagers. What was I thinking? Sorry, Frank - there are only a few things that I will be publicly and deeply angry about. Calls to set aside a difficult military ethical standard that was hard won is one of those things. Especially when it comes from someone who once claimed, IIRC, to have been a noncom in VietNam. You know - that unpleasant affair in a little country with villages like My Lai. What pisses me off deeply is not only what he proposed be done to women, children, noncombatants. It's what doing such things would in turn do to the people who are serving in uniform today, and to us as a people. |
| Posted by: lotp 2011-10-14 23:24 |
| #26 I'm coming late to the party since I worked late at the clinic today, but since Besoeker called on me by name. I personally would not have sink trapped Old Spook's comment, since I agree with just about every word of it. OS can be quite crusty, as moderator badanov points out, and perhaps he was exhibiting some poor taste, as moderator Scooter points out. However, OS is also correct in making clear that the US military lives by a code. Some of our people occasionally forget that code, and when they do and they're caught, they're punished. WWII was eons ago. We don't fight like that anymore, least because we haven't yet been put into an existential conflict -- kill or be killed. Al Qaeda tried that on 9/11, and since 9/12 they've done the vast majority of the dying. We've managed to put them into that situation without having to commit horrific atrocities. That's good. I agree with OS: the United States should not and cannot "kill them all". That way leads to the destruction of our souls. Why live if we have to live like that? I agree with moderator lotp, who pretty much says the same thing. Finally, I agree with moderator Pappy (who I note doesn't always agree with OS), who points out the clearly marked 'Exit' sign. You've been around here a while, Besoeker, and you've also pushed a lot of buttons. Without offering any apologies yourself, if I recall correctly. Not that I'm calling it on you tonight; no, not me. Grow a thicker skin. It's a sandpaper world out there. AoS |
| Posted by: Steve White 2011-10-14 22:49 |
| #25 .com would've served you your sensitivities marinated in false sympathies. Tighten up. A little less sensitivity in Mod reaction might be appropriate... |
| Posted by: Frank G 2011-10-14 22:32 |
| #24 Sadly,others could have seen the inappropriateness of the comments, and done the same much earlier. For whatever reason, they failed. I've heard worse here. It's a good thing you weren't around in the early days of Rantburg; your sensibilities would have ended up in bloody heaps. Come to think of it, sort of like your metaphorical Afghan villagers. But do have a good weekend, Meneer. And remember, the door to Rantburg is always open. You know, the one marked 'Entrance'... and 'Exit'. Kind Regards, Pappy (as a private citizen, since it seems to have to be mentioned.) |
| Posted by: Pappy 2011-10-14 21:50 |
| #23 Commenting as a mod: I regarded OS's comments as... crusty. Not necessarily over the top, but way short of what I'd call inappropriate. Let's face it the man can lay in a string of taunts if his buttons are pushed. I know. I've pushed them. However, to use a baseball metaphor: I would not have sink trapped him, but that's like a called strike. If Besoeker doesn't like where the ball is called a strike, he's better be prepared to bunt. |
| Posted by: badanov 2011-10-14 20:05 |
| #22 Screw it. It's not worth the effort. - lotp |
| Posted by: lotp 2011-10-14 19:59 |
| #21 My thanks and 'cap tip' to Scooter. Sadly, others could have seen the inappropriateness of the comments, and done the same much earlier. For whatever reason, they failed. With regard to "respect" a short comment if I may. I have on occasion in years past, been extended the "respect" of both greater and lesser men. Many of which still correspond after several decades. When I requires yours, be sure, I'll ring you up. Our short debate has been both stimulating and therapeutic. Ms. Besoeker always thought I was too easily entertained. Oh well, animal lover that I am, just call me a pig in the mud, I love it! Thank you! It has been a very slow night here and I am out of Keurig K-Cups dimmit. But you have made it all worthwhile. If I failed to mention it earlier, please don't forget candidate Herman Cain and a nice campaign contribution. We've completely worn poor old Barry out, and we certainly don't need any Mittens. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2011-10-14 19:34 |
| #20 Screw it. It's not worth the effort. - lotp |
| Posted by: lotp 2011-10-14 19:07 |
| #19 Yes! Yes! In fact I do. I have for years sought that coveted office, but alas, have failed quite miserably. One of my lesser failures mind you. You, among all men and wymin, have been bestowed with inerrant memory, great knowledge, and unparalleled character descernment. It enables you and selected others to say anything you please to the.... little people. To include critiquing their free-rants, bashing them in anonymity, referring to them as racists, warmongers, sofa-warriors, feminine hygene cleansing devices, and worse. I congratulate you on your accomplishment and strongly encourage you to tell others, for a union, wear a button, an arm band, or other distinctive symbol. Once again, have a safe and most enjoyable week end. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2011-10-14 18:53 |
| #18 Screw it. It's not worth the effort. - lotp |
| Posted by: lotp 2011-10-14 18:27 |
| #17 Race card down is it? If my word count is correct, that took no fewer that 200 written words. My compliments! UHDS has a spot for you as a guest lecturer next summer I am certain. Seriously, please do not confuse my urging of a win by annihilation one's enemy as racial genocide. That really is a bit twisted. My desire is simply to win or withdraw and end the bloodshed. All indications are the Muslim world initiated this ugly affair. I still hold hope that we may finish it with some degree of aplomb and dignity. Failing that, cut losses and get out! No, I've never had the honour of being banned on the Burg. Sink vaulted a few times, but never banned. My absences have been due to work or travel, and I've certainly missed you as well. Again, have a most pleasant week end, and send Herman Cain a few dollars as you can. He needs your support. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2011-10-14 18:24 |
| #16 Besoeker, FWIW I've retroactively redacted the comment in question. I agree that it was not in good taste. |
| Posted by: Scooter McGruder 2011-10-14 18:24 |
| #15 shrug You regularly try to push the limit here at the Burg - with not-so-sly racial references from time to time, by calling for our military to commit atrocities recently. From time to time the mods have imposed a vacation from posting for that reason. This time around you were called on it. You don't take it well when you're called on it, as OldSpook did angrily last night and as I did today with a different tone. Tough. |
| Posted by: lotp 2011-10-14 17:38 |
| #14 Attitudes and moral stances show - one way or the other. Posted by lotp All open to subjective bias and interpretation, and yes, a cross many have been hung upon I might add. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2011-10-14 17:26 |
| #13 Nor will you ever be "shown" those things Attitudes and moral stances show - one way or the other. |
| Posted by: lotp 2011-10-14 17:17 |
| #12 an American point of view Tell it to the Indians. |
| Posted by: g(r)omgoru 2011-10-14 17:08 |
| #11 Lotp: Thank you for your comments, but frankly, all I see is a continued personal attack. With regard to the following: Because not once in your postings here at the Burg have you ever shown that you are a true warrior who has internalized that critical standard: "be willing to kill people and break things if need be, but do not ever ever ever take it lightly.” Nor will you ever be "shown" those things. I am quite comfortable with my un-extraordinary accomoplishments, service, on-going current contribution albeit limited, and... "internalizations" which by the way, are and will remain private. Gratuitous tail-sniffing, references to "strategic assignments" and bonifides checks are really not my cup of tea. Activities such as these fall into the same league as the ad hominem personal attacks that appear to have become the approved domain of a few in this forum. Thank you once again for your comments, and have a pleasant week end. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2011-10-14 16:54 |
| #10 Screw it. It's not worth the effort. - lotp |
| Posted by: lotp 2011-10-14 16:30 |
| #9 I think you confuse "pleasant" with "right", lotp. |
| Posted by: g(r)omgoru 2011-10-14 16:18 |
| #8 Thanks, lotp -- you really brought into perspective why our guys have PTSD and in later years, "awake to ghost." Thanks for telling us, how the military trains our "warriors." The "least wrong option" WOW |
| Posted by: Sherry 2011-10-14 14:56 |
| #7 Screw it. It's not worth the effort. - lotp |
| Posted by: lotp 2011-10-14 13:48 |
| #6 :-( |
| Posted by: g(r)omgoru 2011-10-14 06:08 |
| #5 We'll see what happens g(r)om. This is the second time this sort of attack has taken place of late. It was posted at 2209 EST last evening and has still not been deleted or "sinktrapped." If a deletion and apology is not forthcoming, one can only conclude that the management agrees with the disturbing commentary. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2011-10-14 05:58 |
| #4 Besoeker, you can't argue with somebody who believes that "We've progressed beyond all that". |
| Posted by: g(r)omgoru 2011-10-14 05:36 |
| #3 Dr. Steve, Fred and mods: I believe I am owed an apology in reference to last evening's adhominum post. Furthermore, the writer should be permanently banned as should anyone who levies such personal attacks. Your opinoin please. I welcome and look forward to seeing your comments. Respectfully, Besoeker |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2011-10-14 00:49 |
| #2 Ummm...kill a militant? |
| Posted by: Skidmark 2011-10-14 00:43 |
| #1 What more can Paks do? Pick one side or the other and stick with it. |
| Posted by: SteveS 2011-10-14 00:35 |