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| In Hasan case, superiors ignored their own worries |
| 2010-01-11 |
Aaaay-Peeee article so the highlights are here --
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| Posted by:Steve White |
| #18 Whether you enjoy, respect, or agree with my opinions doesn't change the overriding failure of those Officers to think outside the box and get Hasan booted. Also based on experience - Medical is different from Line. Especially mental health professionals. Sometimes I think being mentally 'off' is part of the requirement. |
| Posted by: Pappy 2010-01-11 23:32 |
| #17 "The dead of Fort Hood paid for the liberal agenda of diversity and political correctness foisted on America". |
| Posted by: Tom- Pa 2010-01-11 22:51 |
| #16 Whether you enjoy, respect, or agree with my opinions doesn't change the overriding failure of those Officers to think outside the box and get Hasan booted. Heres this free thinking Muslim zealot, shitting outside the proverbial litter box and not one of those Officers put an end to it. Hasan's superiors need the hurt put on them for being dense. My experience tells me, IMHO, Enlisted could spot and neutralize a Hasan quicker. Its because enlisted have to make all the crappy little cogs in the wheel turn, all the little vertabrae in the backbone stay aligned. One is popped out? It better get popped back in place. For example, if Hasan had been enlisted, he would surely lose some rank becuase the following would never be allowed to continue: (PVT HASAN, why weren't you at your assigned place of duty, the Prayer Breakfast, the formation, the bed check, etc? This is the fifth time? Oh, I see, you were busy at a strip club instead and bowing to Mecca over a Pina Colada?) Different in not a good way stands out PDQ. Officers are "above" a lot of the good, bad, and the ugly, or at least "separated" ie: better and more diffuse living quarters cloisters them away from dealing closely with other soldiers. Trust me, if you live full time in a barracks year after year, you know Everything about people. Officers are less likely to have to know. For this reason, it is my humble opinion, Officers can ignore the good bad and ugly (for a time) much more easily. And they are paid way more than Enlisted, making the Hasan case even more negligent. |
| Posted by: GirlThursday 2010-01-11 22:20 |
| #15 Pap, where I was in the Army, all through my ranks I had some of the greatest NCO's one could ask for. Always mentoring me, always adding common sense and always reminding me of who actually get the work done. Even if my decision was not the best one, they still made it a success. Sometimes it cost me beer. Almost seven years in command it can be very lonely, your right. Decisions may not be popular, or make sense, but they must be folowed. If I had one NCO in my office it was usually an admin issue, if two were there they were bickering and I needed to play ref. If the lot of my senior NCO's were waiting for me it was a big clue I had done something wrong or they needed me to explain a decision. Sometimes a decision is not fair or does not make sense, after the mission is over they deserved an explaination, and ocasionally a good ripping, and we always ended it with a cold beer. Beer is good for a bruised ego, I drank a lot. At the end of the day command means leading, honesty, winning, completing the mission and seeing that the soldiers have the very best when they go to fight. That is what taking care of them is all about. Nothing about coddling or being their friend or team mate. Otherwise its just daycamp. But then, like you Pap, The NCO's in my commands were educated, strong, all were better educated and smarter than I. They were humbling to be around and an honor to lead. |
| Posted by: 49 Pan 2010-01-11 22:09 |
| #14 One more thing - in the Fleet, part of the Chief's job is to guide the junior officer that's (technically) in charge of the division so that the kid learns. Sometimes that means keeping them out of trouble, sometimes it means correcting them. If the J.O. doesn't want to, well... there's ways to resolve that too. Apparently that's something that doesn't happen in your branch |
| Posted by: Pappy 2010-01-11 21:45 |
| #13 As a matter of fact, most enlisted are ten times better than most officers, as people, as teammates and as leaders. Sad but true. Chew on that. Perhaps. Most of my senior enlisted were great leaders. Most of them were probably better educated than me. Many have multiple degrees; normally a Master's. My last Command Master Chief had his PhD. But I'll wager your observation is limited by your experience (I'm not going to get parochial). Not all E-8s or E9s can command a destroyer, a Seabee battalion, or an F-18 squadron. One , it's not their job - nor would 99% of them want to. There's a lot more involved to command than leading troops or playing team-mate. One, you kinda stop being a 'person'. You're the CO. It's scary and it's lonely, and you're never really ready for, even though you spend a significant part of your life getting ready for it. Sometimes it gets dumped on you by circumstance. Even if it's planned, so few make it and a significant percentage of them get booted even when they do. It's an understatement to say we can't do it all. That's why we have enlisted leadership to fall back on. But they don't command units. |
| Posted by: Pappy 2010-01-11 21:36 |
| #12 Girl thursday, your lumping all officers into the fucked up/no good catagory is a bit offensive, I can only assume you had a bad experience. With that said, while I usually enjoy your comments your just wrong here. I spent seven years elisted in the 1/17 CAV at Bragg and with the exception of one Captain, I would have followed my command group to the ends of the world. This was back in the early 80's and to this day I feel the same way about them. The next 20 more years of active duty I spent as, yes, an officer, 11 years in USASOC. When we came across a weak officer we isolated them so they could not make deisions that could endanger the troops. Poor OER's gave commanders opportunity to get the weak out of the system. Even if the Ft Hood Command felt him weak enough to remove, it takes time, a long time. Putting an officer out for political or relig beliefs are imopssible. Soldiers, and officers do not have to agree with policy, but they do have to follow it. If disagreeing with current policy or operations was grounds for dismissal the Army would have been emptied during the Clinton years. We have many organizations in DOD that are not always supportive of the leadership. Your contempt for officers is one of them. The Black Masons are another more vigilant one. Finding officers and NCO's that hate our president or the war is easy. You can find more than I want to admit on every post. Finding the ones that are going to frag their peers, officers, or subordinants is another story all together. Finding them before they act out is almost impossible. |
| Posted by: 49 Pan 2010-01-11 20:01 |
| #11 Check out this Wikipedia entry on Michael J. Swango He probably killed more people than Hasan, and the pattern of misfeasance on the part of medical authorities who put him into positions of responsibility was similar. I was able to follow his case for years just from reading the papers, yet those who accepted his applications were blissfully unaware. |
| Posted by: Anguper Hupomosing9418 2010-01-11 17:02 |
| #10 Too bad. Wheres the lawyers updating the regs to include a Rapid back to the block where you came from for weirdo Muslims clause? |
| Posted by: GirlThursday 2010-01-11 16:39 |
| #9 There's enuf mud for everybody's boots. I give you SGT Hasan Akbar of the 101st Abn Div, now living in the DB at Leavenworth. Akbar murdered two US Army officers and wounded 14 others officers and soldiers in Kuwait in 2003. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2010-01-11 16:29 |
| #8 Consider this for a moment: if Hassan was enlisted not officer, pulling the kind of stunts he was, he would have been relegated to some crap detail like trash pick up or something. He would have been neutralized to some degree by being micromanaged by an angry Sergeant who would have none of his crap!! Next thing you know, he'd be chaptered out. |
| Posted by: GirlThursday 2010-01-11 16:22 |
| #7 GirlThursday you've simply got to transfer out of the Military Intelligence Corps. :) |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2010-01-11 16:10 |
| #6 The worst f-ups in all three of my units were members of the Officer side of the house, and were mostly "immune" to punishment. The whole Military systmem is in question if you ask me. And if I piss off Officers who read this, all to the better, because you people don't always EARN YOUR PAY. As a matter of fact, most enlisted are ten times better than most officers, as people, as teammates and as leaders. Sad but true. Chew on that. |
| Posted by: GirlThursday 2010-01-11 16:00 |
| #5 oops, and you can be Asian too and be on the acceptable to punish list. The military is B.S. nowdays. Okay I am done, any more hypocrisy and I am going to burst a blood vessel. |
| Posted by: GirlThursday 2010-01-11 15:55 |
| #4 "Personal note to MAJ Hasan's Officer Efficiency Report (OER) Raters and Senior Raters: How are you sleeping at night you spineless, gutless, complicit wonders?" A thousand times yes, how are they sleeping? Sleeping when this guy skated by, meanwhile, young, learning, and striving American Soldiers are being disciplined, screamed at, rank and pay getting taken away, extra duties, etc, for tiny, small, and medium, and large infractions all within the auspices of UCMJ all because they can be punished. Punished for being white, black, hispanic and making a small f-up. |
| Posted by: GirlThursday 2010-01-11 15:52 |
| #3 Who'd dare to "discriminate" against a member of "Most oppressed group of people in the World"? Any superior who'd give him a bad report would have to prove absence of Juice taint. |
| Posted by: g(r)omgoru 2010-01-11 15:02 |
| #2 Let me note that the notion of just passing someone along from student to resident to fellow to practice isn't just a problem in the military. Full disclosure: until recently I was a fellowship program director. I've been on the inside on dealing with these sorts of issues. I can tell you that there is enormous pressure to move people along once they pass through the magic gateway of entry into medical school. The attitude of many, many of my colleagues is, if you were smart enough to be admitted to medical school, you should be allowed to graduate from each level of training and eventually end up in practice. In the U.S., only a relative handful of people at each level of training (medical student, resident, fellow) fail to graduate to the next level. This is completely unlike Canada, for example, were ~15% of medical students flunk out in the first two years. Canada apparently has no problem admitting that the medical school admissions committees are imperfect. So I very well understand what happened to Hasan, and that's why I posted this article: once he got into the Uniformed Services University, he pretty much had a pass all the way through to practice (Fort Hood) regardless of how big a screw-up he was. The only things that would stop him would be a felony conviction of some kind, abject moral turpitude (yeah, and define that these days) or a drug problem (and even students/docs with drug problems get 3rd and 4th chances). Hasan made it to Fort Hood because NO ONE was willing to stand up, put out a hand and say, "Halt!" I don't like it. It led to the loss of good people. But I understand what happened. I've seen this movie before. |
| Posted by: Steve White 2010-01-11 14:30 |
| #1 Personal note to MAJ Hasan's Officer Efficiency Report (OER) Raters and Senior Raters: How are you sleeping at night you spineless, gutless, complicit wonders? |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2010-01-11 13:39 |