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Lutherans May Permit Noncelibate Gay Pastors | |
2009-08-21 | |
![]() Nobody's been turned into a pillar of salt yet, so it must be okay... The denomination, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, is considering lifting a ban on noncelibate gay and lesbian pastors, permitting the ordination of people in committed same-sex relationships. As long as it's committed, y'see. At issue is how the Bible should inform policy, how the denomination can best serve its mission, and how a vote to ordain gay men and lesbians would affect the church's relationships with the broader Christian community. Fears of a schism have been fueled by recent turmoil in the Episcopal Church, which voted in July to permit the ordination of openly gay bishops. The issue has cost the Episcopal Church about 100,000 members, who have left to join a new, more conservative entity called the Anglican Church in North America. But that can't happen to the Lutherans because they're... ummm... different. Although an Evangelical Lutheran Church in America task force proposed a "structured flexibility" clause that ultimately would leave gay ordination up to each congregation, a sense of division looms. So as a matter of church doctrine, each congregation gets to decide if sin is permissibe. Does that apply to all sin, or only to the particular sin in question? I can see the day coming when a poor congregation in Memphis, in need of a new church roof, might sanctify armed robbery. Some delegates here are cloaked in shawls distributed by a Lutheran organization endorsing gay ordination, while others are wearing buttons from an opposing Lutheran organization. "It feels like a high school football rivalry, where you've got two camps like that," said Chelsea Mathis, a delegate from Monroe, Mich. The vision of the kickoff is particularly painful... The scriptural framework of the debate only feeds those divisions, Ms. Mathis said. "There are dueling Bible verses when the microphone is open to people," she said. It's been considered a sin ever since Sodom & Gomarrah, but if you look hard enough through the Bible and hold your mind at just the right angle you'll be able to find most anything you want. Ms. Mathis said she had friends who were "at their wits' ends with the church" and might leave if it does not accept gay ministers, but she is also aware that, "for some people, it's almost too much to be able to acknowledge that there is homosexuality." Its existence would seem to be confirmed by the argument going on, wouldn't it? Perhaps her friends at their wits' end should consider leaving and setting up their own gay Lutheran church, where you'd have to prove you were gay to get in. That's a solution that doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone. It's obviously an inferior plan to making everyone else accept your particular sins. Bridging that gap among 1,045 delegates and the 65 synods they represent can feel impossible, she said. "Unless we get our way, of course. If we do, it's God's will and the all those bigot and rubes will just have to shut up, won't they?" Many delegates believe the future of the church -- which has 4.6 million members -- hangs in the balance. The church has taken two steps this week that make the approval of gay clergy members seem more likely. It voted Monday to lower the portion of convention votes required to pass policy from two-thirds to a simple majority. ... known as the "nuclear option." ![]() "But what does God know about it, after all?" Meanwhile, Javen Swanson, a married gay man from Lauderdale, Minn., in his final year of seminary, anxiously awaits a ruling. "This decision makes or breaks things for me," Mr. Swanson said. "If it passes, I can proceed as though I were a straight person." | |
Posted by:Fred |
#13 Rammer- do want the pastor's sig other taking your boys scouts on their first camping trip. How about if the pastor is a butch - her bimbo taking the girl scouts out. What about those religious retreats and Sunday School. Kiddies beware! Somebody nearby has their whole world view centered on their crotch and is looking to score... somebody they trust. |
Posted by: 3dc 2009-08-21 23:46 |
#12 Shut up rammer! Just STFU! |
Posted by: 3dc 2009-08-21 23:42 |
#11 I am not in favor of this motion, but read your Bible before throwing stones at the ELCA. Here are two samples to consider. The first clearly envisions limitations on the role of women in the Church, which are breached every Sunday. The second concerns the wisdom of judging others for their transgressions. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. Romans 1:26-2:6 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. 1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds” |
Posted by: rammer 2009-08-21 22:44 |
#10 Halliburton, Do you mean like Father Mychal Judge, NYFD Chaplain, martyred on Sept. 11, 2001? |
Posted by: Eric Jablow 2009-08-21 21:49 |
#9 What about celibate gay pastors? |
Posted by: Halliburton - Mysterious Conspiracy Division 2009-08-21 19:46 |
#8 I thought there was an ice-skating rink at the center of Hell, Sgt. Mom. |
Posted by: Eric Jablow 2009-08-21 18:35 |
#7 Iff its "contentious" for the Epicopalians, its gonna be "wildly rad" for the Lutherans, and worse = better for the Baptists, etal. |
Posted by: JosephMendiola 2009-08-21 18:22 |
#6 "Perhaps her friends... should consider... their own gay Lutheran church, where you'd have to prove you were gay to get in." Fred there is such a denomination: the 21st Century Democrat Party. |
Posted by: regular joe 2009-08-21 17:19 |
#5 I would think now that a lot of ELCA congregations are seriously re-considering the Missouri Synod, so in other words, I don't think it will kill the Lutheran Church. The Missouri Synod will approve of this at about the same time Satan opens an ice-skating rink in hell. |
Posted by: Sgt. Mom 2009-08-21 16:23 |
#4 It passed yesterday.. I quit the elca retarded church of satan today. One vote. It was supposed to be 2/3rds. They stretched the convention voting hours past the planned dinner hour than changed it from 2/3rds to 1/2. It won buy one friking vote after lots of folks had left to eat. Satan wins a big one. |
Posted by: 3dc 2009-08-21 13:09 |
#3 On the bright side there will be all these empty Lutheran churches that they can redecorate in fabulous colors. |
Posted by: ed 2009-08-21 12:55 |
#2 Can't think of a better way to kill a church but I suspect that's really what their plan is. |
Posted by: Ebbang Uluque6305 2009-08-21 12:51 |
#1 As with all things from a "persecuted minority", it is not enough to simply coexist. The "majority" MUST unconditionally accept what is considered aberrant behavior by the "majority". |
Posted by: WolfDog 2009-08-21 12:42 |