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| India-Pakistan |
| Army 'flees second Pakistan fort' |
| 2008-01-17 |
| Pakistani troops have abandoned a fort in a remote tribal area, a day after another was overrun by pro-Taleban militants, officials and witnesses say. They say that paramilitary personnel at Sipla Toi military post in South Waziristan left their positions fearing an attack by the militants. But an army spokesman told the BBC he had received no such reports. On Wednesday, the army said hundreds of militants temporarily seized a fort in the Sararogha area of South Waziristan. Locals told the BBC that 30-40 troops had been stationed at Sipla Toi, some 90km (55 miles) from the town of Dera Ismail Khan. The outpost is nearly as big as the one at Sararogha. "According to our reports, the troops abandoned the fort on their own. Some left last night, others went away this morning. "There was no attack from the Taleban," a South Waziristan tribal administration official based in the town of Tank told the BBC. A resident of the area said that the retreating troops had not left any weapons or ammunition behind. A Taleban spokesman, Maulvi Umar, told the BBC Urdu service that militants had captured the Sipla Toi fort. But there was no independent confirmation of his claims. South Waziristan is a known stronghold of pro-Taleban and al-Qaeda militants. The region has been at the centre of fighting between the army and militants in recent months. Correspondents say the militants are now openly challenging the army in the area bordering Afghanistan. They are eroding confidence in the government's ability to ensure stability for elections due next month that are meant to complete a transition to civilian rule. The army said seven soldiers were killed in the Sararogha attack and 15 men are still missing. The Taleban say they killed 16 troops and captured another 12 during the fighting. The army said about 200 militants had charged the fort in the Sararogha area from four sides on Tuesday night. Local officials and other reports suggested the number of militants may have been nearer to 1,000. Observers say it was the first time that militants have captured a fort in Pakistan. The BBC's M Ilyas Khan says that if the militants had stayed in the fort, they would have made themselves the target of the military's artillery or helicopter gun ships. The army says that up to 40 attackers were killed in the fighting, something the tribal fighters deny. Officials said troops at the fort came under rocket and automatic weapons attack from militants. Soldiers returned fire and the battle went on until early on Wednesday morning |
| Posted by:john frum |
| #26 Pappy: Neville's 12 hours would be a damn site better than what is reported in this case... |
| Posted by: Abu do you love 2008-01-17 22:18 |
| #25 I know that myself and a bunch of my local "bubba" friends would love the opportunity to do just that. As long as we could bring our own weaponry and ammo. Again, intel sez the Taliban/Al Qaeda are setting up for conventional warfare; organizing at the brigade level and perhaps higher. It was an organized force of battalion strength that took the fort. Meaning somebody is arming them, training them, and teaching them to fight smart. Could be the Russians, ex-Soviet 'Stans, Pakistanis, or... other... parties. I'd give Neville and his bubbas about 12 hours of survival. Maybe. |
| Posted by: Pappy 2008-01-17 21:46 |
| #24 Can you imagine what it must feel like to be a classically trained, western educated man or woman living in Pakistan (read civilized, not islaimic fundie)? They sit there there watching their country come apart at the seams. For years they thought the threat was from "India" when in fact the threat was from directly within their own borders. Islam corrupts and perverts all it comes into contact with. I hate islam. |
| Posted by: Mark Z 2008-01-17 19:35 |
| #23 Yall people comparing crack-shot civilians to an army are off base. It takes much more than being able to shoot well. It takes time and good NCO's to take a mob and form it into an effective fighting force. |
| Posted by: Deacon Blues 2008-01-17 19:00 |
| #22 Lord Curzon's steamroller is not so easy to get going. Not if your name is Conway. |
| Posted by: Nimble Spemble 2008-01-17 18:55 |
| #21 |
| Posted by: john frum 2008-01-17 18:36 |
#20  |
| Posted by: john frum 2008-01-17 18:36 |
| #19 Be advised that it is quite possible that neither of these events really happened. The Pakistani press can print a lot of things. Some of them are actually true. |
| Posted by: crosspatch 2008-01-17 18:35 |
| #18 “Not until the military steam-roller has passed over the country (Waziristan) from end to end, will there be peace. But I do not want to be the person to start the machine.” Lord Curzon, Viceroy of India 1899-1905 |
| Posted by: john frum 2008-01-17 18:34 |
| #17 Lord Curzon's steamroller is not so easy to get going. Huh? The only quote I could find from this guy was "Gentlemen never wear brown in London." |
| Posted by: Black Charlie Unomoter8139 2008-01-17 17:57 |
| #16 Neville, there's a world of difference between Pak bubbas and our own redneck bubbas - aiming for instance. No offence intemted |
| Posted by: Omert etc. 2008-01-17 17:51 |
| #15 "They are still alive, will be rounded up, and will live, with their shame, for another day." Whiskey Mike, don't be so sure. Bill Roggio is reporting that eight Shia soldiers that were captured in the first fort had their throats slit. Al |
| Posted by: Frozen Al 2008-01-17 17:15 |
| #14 Asia Times: THE RISE AND RISE OF AL-QAEDA, Part 1 Militants make a claim for talks KABUL - The capture by militants of a fort in Pakistan near the Afghan border is not just another isolated incident in the volatile region. It represents a concerted fightback by al-Qaeda to derail any peace initiatives unless the group itself is directly engaged, rather than local resistance leaders. On Wednesday, several hundred insurgents armed with assault rifles and rockets stormed the remote Sararogha Fort in the South Waziristan tribal area and routed its garrison from the Frontier Constabulary (FC), a paramilitary force formed of men from the area. Pakistani military spokesman Major General Athar Abbas said 40 militants had been killed in an exchange of fire when they managed to enter the fort after blowing up a wall. A Taliban spokesman, Maulvi Omar, however, claimed that 16 FC personnel had been killed and 24 more captured. He said only two of his men had been killed, while a dozen had sustained injuries. "The fort is still in our control," the self-proclaimed Taliban spokesman added in a phone call to the offices of a Pakistani newspaper. Unrest has escalated in South Waziristan since the government singled out Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud for his alleged involvement in the assassination of former premier Benazir Bhutto on December 27 in the army garrison city of Rawalpindi. All the same, Islamabad has tried to defuse the situation by negotiating with selected Taliban leaders. Most recently, a Pakistani Taliban shura (council) headed by Hafiz Gul Bahadur in North Waziristan responded positively to a government offer of a ceasefire, despite opposition from Takfiri elements who view non-practicing Muslims as infidels. The backlash was immediate. Militants launched attacks in Mohmand Agency, followed by Wednesday's mass assault. This response is orchestrated by al-Qaeda from its camps around the town of Mir Ali in North Waziristan. Al-Qaeda views any peace agreements with the Pakistani Taliban as a government maneuver to split the militants, and also says Islamabad has been consistently intransigent over the years. Al-Qaeda demands that it be the chief interlocutor in any peace talks, and it has set its bottom line: guarantees of the withdrawal of all security forces from the tribal areas; enforcement of sharia law, the release of Maulana Abdul Aziz of the radical Lal Masjid (Red Mosque), who was apprehended last year; and that President Pervez Musharraf step down. Graphic ideology Al-Qaeda has fought back strongly in the tribal areas after being forced onto the back foot as a result of Pakistani security operations. Its hardline message is well summed up by a video now in circulation, a copy of which Asia Times Online has viewed. It comes from the camp of Tahir Yuldashev, leader of the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, in Mir Ali. It carries bloody footage, including that of severed heads, backed by messages from top Takfiri ideologues in the tribal areas, including Abdul Khaliq Haqqani and Yuldashev. The video traces some of the successes of the insurgents, including mass surrender scenes of Pakistani armed forces in South Waziristan and detailed footage of the October 2007 war in North Waziristan - the biggest battle in the history of Pakistan's tribal regions. There are scenes of Pakistani F-16s bombing towns and the retaliation of the Pakistani Taliban. The video claims the killing of 150 Pakistani soldiers and shows footage of their bodies, burnt vehicles and seized equipment. The video is primarily a declaration of war against the Pakistani army and urges to struggle to continue until Islamabad is captured. The video portrays Musharraf as the prime accused. With propaganda material such as this, al-Qaeda aims to stamp its authority on the area. At the same time, Jundullah, a purely militant outfit whose objective is to target Pakistan's pro-US rulers and US and British interests in the country, has been revived. Its members receive training in Afghanistan and South Waziristan. The curtailment and revival of al-Qaeda The mastermind of a new approach in Iraq was former US ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and US commander in Iraq General David Petraeus, who introduced peace ideas in early 2007 which resulted in Anbar Awakening. This is an alliance of about 200 Sunni sheikhs drawn mostly from the Dulaimi tribe and dozens of sub-clans who were fighting against al-Qaeda. With arms, money and aid from the US, they established links with indigenous Iraqi tribal resistance movements in Samarra, Tikrit and Mosul to target al-Qaeda, which has proved successful in curtailing the group's operations in Iraq. This initiative was copied by the British in southwest Afghanistan and by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence in South Waziristan and North Waziristan, with channels of communication with the Taliban being established. A new leadership within the Taliban was nurtured and given arms and money by the Pakistani army. The outcome was the massacre of Uzbeks in South Waziristan and the removal of al-Qaeda bigwigs from North Waziristan. But al-Qaeda diligently sowed the seeds of its ideology among the downtrodden and dead-end jihadis of Pakistan's underground militant organizations, such as the Laskhar-i-Jhangvi and the Jaish-i-Mohammed, who felt betrayed over Islamabad's withdrawal of active support for the struggle in Kashmir. This effectively stemmed the rise of the neo-Taliban, and Pakistani and Afghan warriors have fully embraced the global jihad ideology of al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda believes it has sufficiently changed the situation in Pakistan and Afghanistan and that the first regional dialogue with al-Qaeda - involving Britain, the United States and Pakistan - will start in South Asia. Indeed, al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, in audio and video messages last year, surprised many when he urged the West for dialogue. Of course, this was not a straight-forward offer of an olive branch, but an indication that al-Qaeda aims to be the main negotiator of Muslim issues, rather than local groups such as the Taliban, Iraqi tribes and Hamas in Palestine. In Pakistan and Afghanistan, this is already happening. |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-01-17 17:12 |
| #13 They're facing Taliban, some of whom got NVGs from the ISI and are heavily armed (HMGs and RPGs). They've got no body armor, no helmets (except for some WW-1 dish style Brit ones), no night vision, no radios, no fire support (either artillery or airpower). Many don't even have boots. They wear leather chappals or canvas sneakers. So they run away.... |
| Posted by: john frum 2008-01-17 16:57 |
| #12 They may have cheap Chinese AK-47s now but are typically issued a single clip of ammunition. So a bit like Barney Fife, then? |
| Posted by: eLarson 2008-01-17 16:31 |
| #11 When its interests have been threatened, the Pakistani Army has been absolutely ruthless. Thousands of Balochis were killed in the 70s when they crushed the rebellion. More than a million Bengalis ("a low people occupying a low land") were slaughtered in 1971. Hundreds of thousands were raped ("at least the babies will be fair skinned"). More than a thousand Shias were killed in Gilgit, Pak Kashmir in the 1980s (pogrom using Arab militants). This is the Internet age though... such things are much more difficult for them to hide now. Lord Curzon's steamroller is not so easy to get going. |
| Posted by: john frum 2008-01-17 15:26 |
| #10 JF: The real Pak troops are still on the border with India. The US military aid has gone to equipping them with the latest in weaponry to fight the Indians, not counter-insurgency. I can't imagine the Punjabs, Sindhis or Mohajirs currently running the country will yield it to a bunch of unwashed Mahsuds or Waziris. They know India's not about to incorporate 200m Pakistanis into the country. If the army's stranglehold on the country is threatened, I suspect it will move against the tribal areas with troops currently on the border with India. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2008-01-17 14:30 |
| #9 These guys are given little training, and up to a short time ago had Lee Enfield 303s. They may have cheap Chinese AK-47s now but are typically issued a single clip of ammunition. They are also local, meaning the Talibs will kill them and their families at will. The real Pak troops are still on the border with India. The US military aid has gone to equipping them with the latest in weaponry to fight the Indians, not counter-insurgency. |
| Posted by: john frum 2008-01-17 14:17 |
| #8 ...more like giving a campaign cap to the local bubbas and saying "Now you are a soldier". I know that myself and a bunch of my local "bubba" friends would love the opportunity to do just that. As long as we could bring our own weaponry and ammo. I think the Wazzabilly's would get quite the wake up call when a bunch crack shot Texans start potting their asses. |
| Posted by: Neville Flenter1162 2008-01-17 14:08 |
| #7 might not be a bad idea to let the Taliban and Al Q completely take over a few districts then let the locals experience islamic paradise a bit |
| Posted by: mhw 2008-01-17 13:41 |
| #6 It's been a while, but the Pakistani Army regulars are / were pretty decent. Tough and determined. Big gap between the officer corps and the enlisted. Officers that I worked with were upper crust types who nonetheless were smart and worked hard. Enlisted were decent hard-working long-suffering types. I wouldn't gauge the regular army by the actions of irregulars. The irregulars likely panicked and rabbited. They are still alive, will be rounded up, and will live, with their shame, for another day. |
| Posted by: Whiskey Mike 2008-01-17 13:40 |
| #5 Army 'flees second Pakistan fort' no TV or running hot water.. so unprofessional pussies bugged out.. |
| Posted by: RD 2008-01-17 13:00 |
| #4 run awwwaaayyy!! |
| Posted by: Frank G 2008-01-17 12:56 |
| #3 Note that these are manned by "paramilitary forces of the Frontier Corps" per Bill Roggio. Not exactly frontline troops - more like giving a campaign cap to the local bubbas and saying "Now you are a soldier". Not to say the Pak regulars are primo troops, but these guys are a softer target. |
| Posted by: Omert Sforza4338 2008-01-17 12:47 |
| #2 What a shite army those Paks have.India please note!!! |
| Posted by: Paul 2008-01-17 12:22 |
| #1 Got the coordinates? MRLS standing by. |
| Posted by: DarthVader 2008-01-17 12:14 |