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Europe
Pope in 'freedom' blast at Islam
2007-09-22
Benedict XVI attacked Muslim nations where Christians are either persecuted or given the status of second-class citizens under the Shariah Islamic law. He also defended the rights of Muslims to convert to Christianity, an act which warrants the death penalty in many Islamic countries.

His comments came almost exactly a year after he provoked a wave of anger among Muslims by quoting a Byzantine emperor who linked Islam to violence.

Yesterday, near Rome, the 80-year-old pontiff made a speech in "defence of religious liberty", which, he said "is a fundamental, irrepressible, inalienable and inviolable right". In a clear reference to Islam, he said: "The exercise of this freedom also includes the right to change religion, which should be guaranteed not only legally, but also in daily practice."

Addressing the problem of Islamic extremism, he added: "Terrorism is a serious problem whose perpetrators often claim to act in God's name and harbour an inexcusable contempt for human life."

Pope Benedict is particularly concerned about the persecution of Christians in Iraq since the invasion of 2003. Before then, there were about 1.2million Christians in the country. But the number has dropped to below 600,000.
Posted by:Steve White

#22  Muslims demand special treatment here, while they abuse minority religions in their own countries. Why do our leaders buy their snakeoil
Posted by: McZoid   2007-09-22 23:26  

#21  a LOT of Chaldeans here in San Diego County - quite the family network. They show up requesting asylum, and have a good local rep of working hard and causing no problems
Posted by: Frank G   2007-09-22 21:19  

#20  Some have been filtering up through South America trying to cross our southern border.
Posted by: trailing wife   2007-09-22 21:09  

#19  Not disputing that, lotp, but 600,000 is one heck of a lot of dead bodies and refugees. Where are the living now? Camps in Syria? I don't see Syria tolerating that. It just doesn't seem to add up.
Posted by: Darrell   2007-09-22 20:13  

#18  Darrell, a friend of mine (not a close friend, but someone I've known for about 5 years) has been active and respected in international banking for many years, primarily in the middle east. He was brought in by the CPA to advise on the setup of Iraq's new currency, banking laws etc. Guy's in his mid 70s & went through a 2 week refresher course on things like shooting an M-16 ... shared a trailer in the Green Zone from 2004 through the elections. Still spends about 1/4 of his time in Amman, Baghdad etc. while his wife tries not to worry until his flight gets back each trip.

So ... someone who is a closeup observer and knows the people & culture. He used to worship in one or another of the Iraqi churches when there. He can't find one, even quasi-underground, in Baghdad now (and he knows the community, if they were there he'd hear about if even if they asked him to keep away for security reasons).

It's been very very bad for Christians there since the Sunnis triggered the sectarian violence with the shrine bombings. Very few still alive and in the country, so far as he can tell.
Posted by: lotp   2007-09-22 20:04  

#17  Firm population numbers in a chaotic country, formerly ruled for 30 years by a ruthless dictatorship, are hard to come by.

From the CIA World Factbook:

Muslim 97% (Shi'a 60%-65%, Sunni 32%-37%), Christian or other 3%

I'm not sure where the Daily Mail got its 1.2 million Christians figure, the sources I've read fall between 700,000 and 850,000. In any case, within the last year, Iraq's Christian communities have been pummeled, and I think a 50% evacuation rate is not an unreasonable estimate.
Posted by: mrp   2007-09-22 18:50  

#16   "As many as 50 percent of Iraq's Christians may already have left" [as many as?] [may?]

"possibly 750,000 people, is thought to have fled" [possibly?] [thought to?] [today's article says 600,000]

"In Saddam-era Iraq, the country's 800,000 Christians" [800,000 or 1.2 million?]

Obviously nobody really knows.

Posted by: Darrell   2007-09-22 17:57  

#15  The envelope, please ...

Christians Fleeing Violence in Iraq

Excerpt:

As many as 50 percent of Iraq's Christians may already have left the country, according to a report issued Wednesday by the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, a federal monitoring and advisory group in Washington D.C.

"These groups face widespread violence from Sunni insurgents and foreign jihadis, and they also suffer pervasive discrimination and marginalization at the hands of the national government, regional governments, and para-state militias," said the report.

Islamic extremists have also targeted liquor stores, hair salons and other Christian-owned businesses, saying they violate Islam, the report said.

"This is not the culture of Iraqis or the nature of Iraqis. We have lived during centuries together in a respectful attitude and friendship," said Luwis Zarco, the Catholic archbishop of Kirkuk.

In much of the Middle East, Christians are a largely tolerated minority that have achieved a measure of business and professional success, but they are sometimes viewed with suspicion by their Muslim neighbors.

In Saddam-era Iraq, the country's 800,000 Christians — many of them Chaldean-Assyrians and Armenians, with small numbers of Roman Catholics — were generally left alone. Many, such as Saddam Hussein's foreign minister and deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz, reached the highest levels of power.


And from Frontpage:

The Death of Iraq's Christians

Iraqi Christians have responded in the only way possible: running away. Roughly half of the pre-war Christian community, possibly 750,000 people, is thought to have fled Iraq.

That Iraqi Christians have fared poorly in the midst of Muslim radicalism, whether Shia or Sunni, comes as no surprise.Christians possess no military forces, no militias organized for their defense. Nor are their enclaves large enough to offer protection.

Less expected was Kurdistan's mistreatment of the Assyrians. Indeed, writes BetBasoo, the "systematic campaign of persecution ... began in the Kurdish regions of north Iraq shortly after the first Gulf war and spread to Baghdad and Basra after the liberation of Iraq in April of 2003. In the last three months it has intensified and is now openly declared in some areas of Iraq."

Unfortunately, there is little hope that the violence will abate. To the contrary, contends BetBasoo, "since Assyrians are not capable of defending themselves and are targeted as a class because of their distinct identity, what is now unfolding in Iraq can be termed an incipient genocide."



Now, I've read from these sources (and others) that up to 50% of the Christian community had been driven out of Iraq. So, I saw your 1.2 million and figured that 50% was about, oh, say, 600,000.

Do you need more references, or will that do?

Posted by: karnac   2007-09-22 17:28  

#14  Less than one year ago:
"Estimates of the resulting Christian exodus vary from the tens of thousands to more than 100,000, with most heading for Syria, Jordan and Turkey."
[NYT: "IraqÂ’s Christians Flee as Extremist Threat Worsens"; October 16, 2006.]
Posted by: Darrell   2007-09-22 17:23  

#13  Karnac.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble   2007-09-22 17:13  

#12  What makes that number appear to be about right? If I told you it was 300,000, would that number appear to be about right too? Do you have a source?
Posted by: Darrell   2007-09-22 17:11  

#11   So 600,000 Christians have disappeared in Iraq since 2003? Benedict must get his statistics from The Lancet or Senator Harry Reid.

That number appears to be about right. Most of the 600,000 left for Syria, Iran, and other places for safety. Various militias have been blowing up churches, kidnapping/killing priests, and kidnapping Christians for cash.
Posted by: mrp   2007-09-22 17:02  

#10  "Before then, there were about 1.2million Christians in the country. But the number has dropped to below 600,000."
So 600,000 Christians have disappeared in Iraq since 2003? Benedict must get his statistics from The Lancet or Senator Harry Reid.
Posted by: Darrell   2007-09-22 16:34  

#9  During the time it took to make this speech, another 2306 Allanists "migrated" to Europe.
Posted by: Slavilet Speaking for Boskone6954   2007-09-22 16:31  

#8  Islam isn't a religion, it's a death cult. It deserves the fate of all cults - extinction.
Posted by: Old Patriot   2007-09-22 16:15  

#7  Whats a few centuries, when you have eternal rammifications to worry about.

At few other times in history has inaction carried such a high price tag. Should the Vatican maintain this sort of glacial pace it will likely disappear in an Iranian nuclear fireball. The Catholic Church and Christians in general had better ally themselves with this world's other peaceful religions in order to present a united front against Islam. A Vatican sponsored drive to provide financial and moral support for Thailand's beleaguered Buddhists would be a fine starting place for creating this sort of inter-faith unity.
Posted by: Zenster   2007-09-22 13:23  

#6  Crusade, please.
Posted by: Excalibur   2007-09-22 10:31  

#5  Actually, he has been talking in this direction since he becaem Pope. Its taken him this long to beat down the liberals in the Vatican's version of the State Department.

I guess all State Departments are filled with the same types of morons.
Posted by: OldSpook   2007-09-22 09:47  

#4  The complete address is linked below:
Link
Posted by: mrp   2007-09-22 08:23  

#3  Hey- ease up on the lateness. The chrch is noted for taking it's time. Only 400 years to admit that Galleleo(sp?) had a point. ~1000 years to resolve a political spat with the Orthodox. Whats a few centuries, when you have eternal rammifications to worry about.

At least pope benny is willing to call a spade a spade.

Any bets on how long untill the next muzzy assassanation attempt?
Posted by: N guard   2007-09-22 06:28  

#2  "He also defended the rights of Muslims to convert to Christianity, an act which warrants the death penalty in many Islamic countries."

It sure is easier than arguing about religion all the time.
Posted by: newc   2007-09-22 01:19  

#1  While laudable in no uncertain terms, Benedict's pronouncement is long overdue.
Posted by: Zenster   2007-09-22 01:08  

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