| Submit your comments on this article |
| Science & Technology |
| Our First Cellulosic Ethanol Plant!!! Range Fuels - Georgia |
| 2007-07-16 |
| Posted by:3dc |
| #14 The trick is to control the expansion and heat of the resulting gases, and isolate the product gas from the rest. With an efficient system, almost everything can be reclaimed and sold, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, lithium, carbon, etc., plus it is convinient to make 'syngas' the building block of ethanol right there. Additionally, water can be converted to steam by the super hot gases and produce enough electricity via steam turbines to be self propelled, as it were. Or, gas turbines can be run directly from the 'reactor'. When this is debugged, most current corn to ethanol plants will refit and begin feeding garbage in instead of corn. The biggest gains are electricity for garbage and sewage sludge. Good tradeoff, no ? Trix are for kidz. Can any of these alternative feed stocks for fuels, with/or without substitute technologies Compete with Crude Petroleum Feed Stocks and produce finished fuels any cheaper! |
| Posted by: RD 2007-07-16 22:41 |
| #13 I guess what I don't see is this: where are these fabled oil shales? Public land or something? |
| Posted by: eLarson 2007-07-16 20:24 |
| #12 Yes there is elarson. They are called environmentalists. |
| Posted by: DarthVader 2007-07-16 18:09 |
| #11 Given enough energy & money, one can make anything out of anything else. The question is, does it pay to do it? EROEI (Energy Returned on Energy Invested) or EROI (Energy Return On Investment) are key measures. Gov't taxes on fuels and subsidies for production of other fuels really screw up any efforts to substitute domestic materials for imported oil. "Good tradeoff" exists only when economic sense is made. Perhaps wsjames's "active partner" left the business & "lack of funding" occurred because there was no economic sense in continuing. |
| Posted by: Anguper Hupomosing9418 2007-07-16 16:24 |
| #10 This isn't a biofuel, but what, if anything, is standing in the way of exploiting the oil shales of Colorado and Utah? |
| Posted by: eLarson 2007-07-16 15:39 |
| #9 To be honest I would think that the inflationary pressure on corn will be fairly short-lived. First, the USA is no where near max corn growing capacity. Remember that we've been paying farmers for generations, NOT to grow corn to keep the prices up. The markets will adjust and the farmers will (hopefully) once again find it profitable to grow corn as opposed to other crops. Secondly, I don't think anyone believes corn is the way to go for the longhaul. There are plant-types that would be much more efficient on a per-acre basis. Switchgrass for instance. Long-term? This is not the answer. But short-term I still see this as a way to ween ourselves off of Middle-East oil. It will take time and as with anything there will be growing pains. Plus, don't expect this to be a cheaper fuel, it's just an alternative. The only reason that we're starting to hear more of it is because the economics are starting to making more sense. |
| Posted by: AllahHateMe 2007-07-16 15:17 |
| #8 thanks, wxjames. Pretty interesting stuff. |
| Posted by: BA 2007-07-16 14:14 |
| #7 BA, I'm no engineer, but I'll give you some info on this technology. I first invested in it in 1985, that's right, 22 years ago. The device was build then the active partner abandoned it. Why ? I have no idea, but I do know that a big multi national would have made it work then. Permits and licenses, the EPA and lack of funding dragged on and on, but now that inefficient ethanol plants are springing up by the hundreds, finally some big money found us and we are now to be included in the Mulberry, Florida ethanol plant. The process will take any carbon based feed material, properly grinded, and mixed with water and apply high voltage. The feed material separates into it's base elements in the plasma form, thus known as gasification. The trick is to control the expansion and heat of the resulting gases, and isolate the product gas from the rest. With an efficient system, almost everything can be reclaimed and sold, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, lithium, carbon, etc., plus it is convinient to make 'syngas' the building block of ethanol right there. Additionally, water can be converted to steam by the super hot gases and produce enough electricity via steam turbines to be self propelled, as it were. Or, gas turbines can be run directly from the 'reactor'. When this is debugged, most current corn to ethanol plants will refit and begin feeding garbage in instead of corn. The biggest gains are electricity for garbage and sewage sludge. Good tradeoff, no ? Click on waste to energy for some raw numbers. |
| Posted by: wxjames 2007-07-16 14:05 |
| #6 Engineers, what's the energy in vs. output on cellulose? I'm just wondering, is all. And, are there other inherent problems with this ethanol, similar to the corn/sugarcane based ethanol (lower mpg in cars, increased use of commercial fertilizers, which in their own right use crude oil, etc.)? I'm just beginning to see the big lie in all these "silver bullet" type fixes. Yes, I'd love to get off ME oil, but all these snake-oil salesmen who say they have "the solution" make me even more nervous. I've already seen the MARKET effects of corn to ethanol, even here in Georgia. We now have swine and beef farmers who can't afford to feed their livestock (and our food) because corn has more than doubled in price. I've heard rumors that Illinois and Iowa (our 2 biggest corn producers) are now NET importers of corn because of all the ethanol plants going up. Mississippi is now raising 10x the corn (acre-wise) that they were just a few years ago! And, yet, no one looks at the big picture (corn is a very water and fertilizer intensive crop, and this year's drought is not helping matters). I know of some research going into converting human waste or animal waste into bio-diesel. Taking the sludge from your local poopie-plant and converting it is a no-brainer (a lot of sludge is just landfilled nowadays and/or given away to local farmers). Mississippi alone has had proposals for something like 2 ethanol plants and 10-12 bio-diesel plants just in the last 2-3 years! It's unbelievable how much (taxpayers) money is going into this, but if it gets us off the ME teet, so be it! |
| Posted by: BA 2007-07-16 13:08 |
| #5 Well shit... |
| Posted by: DarthVader 2007-07-16 10:51 |
| #4 #2, #3: as long as he doesn't shift into the chicken salad business, the county should be safe. |
| Posted by: eLarson 2007-07-16 09:24 |
| #3 i think my point is it's not bullshit it's chickenshit |
| Posted by: sinse 2007-07-16 08:16 |
| #2 welll i am from georgiaand saying that i know a man in my county(franklin) that just got a 29 million dolar grant too create electrixity from burning chicken shit. That being said he has went broke or says he has and it would take 40 truckloadsa day of the fuel toosupply the plant. therefore supllying half the co. . Not too say we have several hydro plants in the area |
| Posted by: sinse 2007-07-16 08:15 |
| #1 I would say woopee and halloluya, but I own stock in a company that's ahead of them. This is just good PR. |
| Posted by: wxjames 2007-07-16 07:36 |