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Europe

Papal Visit to Turkey as Watershed in Western Resolve

2006-11-27

We are in a war to the death craven concessions won't win it
Last I heard, a single US nuclear submarine has sufficient firepower to destroy 150 cities. So why do we act like Muslim junk states are in a position of strength? Our restraint is or weakness.
Because we'd prefer not to fry a substantial portion of the world. We need to live in the world afterwards. That seems obvious to at least some of us.
Who would have thought it? Half of Europe the half that was so smug about having buried God several generations ago is waiting in real trepidation for the outcome of a theological argument. When Pope Benedict XVI flies to Turkey tomorrow, he will embody the most potentially incendiary confrontation between Islam and the West since the defeat of the Turks at Vienna in 1683 brought an end to Islamic conquest in Europe.

The Pope will take with him an understanding that at the root of our problems in dealing with the Islamist death cult, there is a fundamental debate to be had about the role of human reason in political affairs.

The remarks he made in a lecture in Regensburg, Germany, which implied that Islam rejected rationality while Christianity saw it as essential to faith were contentious (and almost certainly designed to be so), but they raised a question that almost no Western government has the courage to ask, let alone answer. How is a liberal democracy to deal with an illiberal religious minority in its midst?

By declaring that there are limits to our tolerance. We won't tolerate intolerance, and we'll apply that to Islam (instead of just conservatives and evangelical Christians). Muslims who wish to live in a liberal, western society have to abide by the founding tenets of that society: freedom of expression and religion, freedom to offend, equal rights for all including those one's religious faith might despise, pluralism, personal liberty, and the rule of a single, secular law. If you can't do that, don't come here.

To understand the life-or-death significance of what the Pope does and says when he arrives in Istanbul, it is necessary to see this confrontation for what it is. This will involve some traumatic re-adjustment for most of the opinion-forming class in Britain. The first assumption that will have to go is the premise that Islamist terrorism can be understood in pragmatic, politically rational terms: in other words, that it can be addressed with the usual mechanisms of negotiation, concession and amended policy.

Light dawns. Indeed one can't negotiate with those who have a fixed stance; one can't concede partially, but only completely, to those who refuse to concede anything; and one can't amend those policies that are at the root core of a liberal, secular society.

The most readily accepted version of this is that a change to our policy in the Middle East will remove the grievances that "fuel" Muslim terrorism. The Cabinet has apparently been advised that all foreign policy decisions over the next decade should have the goal of thwarting terrorism in Britain and that this should involve "a significant reduction in the number and intensity of the regional conflicts that fuel terror activity". So Britain is contemplating constructing a foreign policy, specifically in the Middle East, that is designed to give in to terrorist blackmail...

One could 'solve' the Middle East 'crisis' by acquiescing to the destruction of Israel and the removal of Western influence from the region. That would not solve a thing: it would not abate anger, it would not assuage inferiority, and it would not stop war. There is the world of Islam and the world of war. It's a binary condition.

Posted by:Sneaze Shaiting3550

#6 The whole point of the dhimmitude experience is to induce despair in those subject to it, the knowledge that no matter how one tries, no non-Muslim can ever win in a situation where the dice are loaded. The pope's visit brings a new factor into play in the Muslim world -- the outside world's awareness and involvement in reweighting the dice for all, even them. And that rewrites the entire Muslim Conquista, for if the underclass fights back, how can the Muslims feel secure enough to go abroad a-jihading?

/a thought triggered by Anguper Hupomosing9418 and this entire thread. Thanks, guys!

Posted by: trailing wife 2006-11-27 23:24

#5 --- The "martyrdom" of a Muslim in the course of jihad is the only way they are sure of getting to their heaven, it is the very core of Islam. A Christian martyr is usually understood as going straight to heaven, but this is not the core of Christianity.
--- The difference between the Islamic ideal of a human life and the Christian ideal may look like a debate to us, but it is crucial to a Muslim true-believer. If Muslims compromise on this issue as a religion, Islam is done for, and they know it. Islam is done for anyway unless the mujahideen somehow manage to destroy the modern world and all its kufar innovations.
--- The Pope has no hope of inspiring any change in the Muslim world whatsoever. I think he is aware of this. His point is to inspire, lead, and instruct the dar-al-Harb as to what Christianity has to offer, especially with respect to resisting and overcoming the jihad. His trip to Turkey is to teach the rest of us. If he doesn't make it back alive, he will have lived up to his position fully. For the rest of us, it would be another part of our "education by murder" which has been going on since 9/11.

Posted by: Anguper Hupomosing9418 2006-11-27 22:30

#4 There is no real personal purpose to a Muslim's life.

What about stopping bullets or soaking up neutrons?

Posted by: Zenster 2006-11-27 13:21

#3 Zenster:

There is no real personal purpose to a Muslim's life. Their fanaticism compares to instinct. They are like Monarch butterflies that migrate from anywhere within southern Canada and the lower 48, to a single site in Mexico. One researcher says it takes 5 generations to make the longest stretch of the journey. Natural logic says the Monarch has to do this, in order to preserve species continuity. As for Muslims, when their unholy Koran says "Jihad is prescribed to you," Muslims can do none other than comply. Terror is like breathing to Muslims.

Posted by: Sneaze Shaiting3550 2006-11-27 07:20

#2 I'm reposting last night's comments (slightly modified) here because they still apply, in spades.

I gave this exact issue some extensive thought the other night. The risk Pope Benedict is taking has everything to do with the titanic gulf that separates Catholicism and Islam. As the Vicar of Christ, Benedict is not just obliged but beholden to emulating his Good Shepherd in every possible way.

At first blush, both Christianity and Islam would seem to share a common fixation upon martyrdom. In reality, there is a monstrous difference, in every sense of that terrible word. More often than not, Christian martyrs were sent to their death only after, if not entirely because, they refused to renounce their belief in God. It was precisely this unwillingness to forsake their savior that so often brought down such wrath upon their heads.

Compare this to a so-called religion that permits its adherents to deny loyalty, feign conversion, simulate apostasy and commit a host of other cardinal sins against their own beliefs in the name of propagating said putative faith. What then is the significance of a Muslims destructive martyrdom when it all too often results in the slaughter of innocent life and the destruction of hard won property?

This is the yawning breach that divides Christianity from Islam. One refuses to disown its cherished Supreme Being at any cost, even that of mortal life itself. The other cheerfully dissimulates with even the most egregious of trespasses if that will permit even a slight advantage in besting those who would otherwise show great good humanity towards them.

Benedict in no way approaches this situation lightly or with any sense of frivolity. His life is at stake, he knows it and he carries forward with courage and fortitude that can only be termed as exemplary. I can only admire him for this.

Posted by: Zenster 2006-11-27 03:16

#1 I'm glad to see Ratzi is going home to Constantinople. He's starting our Crusade.

Posted by: anonymous2u 2006-11-27 01:30

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