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| Terror Networks |
| NYT: Can You Tell a Sunni From a Shiite? |
| 2006-10-17 |
| If he asked RBers, he'd have to find a new 'gotcha'. For the past several months, I’ve been wrapping up lengthy interviews with Washington counterterrorism officials with a fundamental question: “Do you know the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite?” A “gotcha” question? Perhaps. But if knowing your enemy is the most basic rule of war, I don’t think it’s out of bounds. And as I quickly explain to my subjects, I’m not looking for theological explanations, just the basics: Who’s on what side today, and what does each want? After all, wouldn’t British counterterrorism officials responsible for Northern Ireland know the difference between Catholics and Protestants? In a remotely similar but far more lethal vein, the 1,400-year Sunni-Shiite rivalry is playing out in the streets of Baghdad, raising the specter of a breakup of Iraq into antagonistic states, one backed by Shiite Iran and the other by Saudi Arabia and other Sunni states. A complete collapse in Iraq could provide a haven for Al Qaeda operatives within striking distance of Israel, even Europe. And the nature of the threat from Iran, a potential nuclear power with protégés in the Gulf states, northern Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and the Palestinian territories, is entirely different from that of Al Qaeda. It seems silly to have to argue that officials responsible for counterterrorism should be able to recognize opportunities for pitting these rivals against each other. But so far, most American officials I’ve interviewed don’t have a clue. That includes not just intelligence and law enforcement officials, but also members of Congress who have important roles overseeing our spy agencies. How can they do their jobs without knowing the basics? My curiosity about our policymakers’ grasp of Islam’s two major branches was piqued in 2005, when Jon Stewart and other TV comedians made hash out of depositions, taken in a whistleblower case, in which top F.B.I. officials drew blanks when asked basic questions about Islam. One of the bemused officials was Gary Bald, then the bureau’s counterterrorism chief. Such expertise, Mr. Bald maintained, wasn’t as important as being a good manager. A few months later, I asked the F.B.I.’s spokesman, John Miller, about Mr. Bald’s comments. “A leader needs to drive the organization forward,” Mr. Miller told me. “If he is the executive in a counterterrorism operation in the post-9/11 world, he does not need to memorize the collected statements of Osama bin Laden, or be able to read Urdu to be effective. ... Playing ‘Islamic Trivial Pursuit’ was a cheap shot for the lawyers and a cheaper shot for the journalist. It’s just a gimmick.” Of course, I hadn’t asked about reading Urdu or Mr. bin Laden’s writings. A few weeks ago, I took the F.B.I.’s temperature again. At the end of a long interview, I asked Willie Hulon, chief of the bureau’s new national security branch, whether he thought that it was important for a man in his position to know the difference between Sunnis and Shiites. “Yes, sure, it’s right to know the difference,” he said. “It’s important to know who your targets are.” That was a big advance over 2005. So next I asked him if he could tell me the difference. He was flummoxed. “The basics goes back to their beliefs and who they were following,” he said. “And the conflicts between the Sunnis and the Shia and the difference between who they were following.” O.K., I asked, trying to help, what about today? Which one is Iran — Sunni or Shiite? He thought for a second. “Iran and Hezbollah,” I prompted. “Which are they?” He took a stab: “Sunni.” Wrong. Al Qaeda? “Sunni.” Right. AND to his credit, Mr. Hulon, a distinguished agent who is up nights worrying about Al Qaeda while we safely sleep, did at least know that the vicious struggle between Islam’s Abel and Cain was driving Iraq into civil war. But then we pay him to know things like that, the same as some members of Congress. Take Representative Terry Everett, a seven-term Alabama Republican who is vice chairman of the House intelligence subcommittee on technical and tactical intelligence. “Do you know the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite?” I asked him a few weeks ago. Mr. Everett responded with a low chuckle. He thought for a moment: “One’s in one location, another’s in another location. No, to be honest with you, I don’t know. I thought it was differences in their religion, different families or something.” To his credit, he asked me to explain the differences. I told him briefly about the schism that developed after the death of the Prophet Muhammad, and how Iraq and Iran are majority Shiite nations while the rest of the Muslim world is mostly Sunni. “Now that you’ve explained it to me,” he replied, “what occurs to me is that it makes what we’re doing over there extremely difficult, not only in Iraq but that whole area.” Representative Jo Ann Davis, a Virginia Republican who heads a House intelligence subcommittee charged with overseeing the C.I.A.’s performance in recruiting Islamic spies and analyzing information, was similarly dumbfounded when I asked her if she knew the difference between Sunnis and Shiites. “Do I?” she asked me. A look of concentration came over her face. “You know, I should.” She took a stab at it: “It’s a difference in their fundamental religious beliefs. The Sunni are more radical than the Shia. Or vice versa. But I think it’s the Sunnis who’re more radical than the Shia.” Did she know which branch Al Qaeda’s leaders follow? “Al Qaeda is the one that’s most radical, so I think they’re Sunni,” she replied. “I may be wrong, but I think that’s right.” Did she think that it was important, I asked, for members of Congress charged with oversight of the intelligence agencies, to know the answer to such questions, so they can cut through officials’ puffery when they came up to the Hill? “Oh, I think it’s very important,” said Ms. Davis, “because Al Qaeda’s whole reason for being is based on their beliefs. And you’ve got to understand, and to know your enemy.” It’s not all so grimly humorous. Some agency officials and members of Congress have easily handled my “gotcha” question. But as I keep asking it around Capitol Hill and the agencies, I get more and more blank stares. Too many officials in charge of the war on terrorism just don’t care to learn much, if anything, about the enemy we’re fighting. And that’s enough to keep anybody up at night. If only the NYT was in charge of, well, everything. |
| Posted by:.com |
| #20 A simple post-mortem procedure... |
| Posted by: gromgoru 2006-10-17 23:56 |
| #19 The difference is that in the US management worships at the Peter Principle. Promote the biggest idiot way beyond his level. With the side effect of electing the biggest morons.. Thats why we need to have random set of registered voters to vote for rather then a volunteer set. The random one is superior. |
| Posted by: 3dc 2006-10-17 23:40 |
| #18 Dari is a dialect of Farsi as is Pashtun. Same root language, differences a bit more pronounced than Moroccan vs Egyptian vs Iraqi Arabic. And as a matter of fact Afghanis do speak Farsi in the western regions, and various tribla dialects all over the place, and do speak a smattering of Arabic, albeit Koranic. So that Ranger needs to stop squaring other people's shit away and talk to some real operators. But he does have a valid point over all - a lot of the leadership doenst know the enemy worth a damn, and that will hamper them in knowing what to do to handle and leverage the areas of operation. |
| Posted by: Indiana Jones 2006-10-17 22:48 |
| #17 NYT Jeff Stein “Do you know the differences between a Sunni and a Shiite?” [how i would answer] Sunnis use dull knives when cutting an infidels throat. Shiites are partial to Dewalt power tools when tickling their captures. Sunnis are waiting for Saddami, while Shiites are waiting for # 12 Immami. NYT “Do you know the similarities between a Sunni and a Shiite?” Both yell Allah Akbar when torturing and killing tied up civilians. Arrested, both cry like little girls in flexi cuffs when their man-pajamas drop around their ankles. Downwind you can always smell 'em before you can see 'em. Both have lumpy on their foreheads. /i know i would be written up, sink trapped, given demerits and told to take out the garbage. |
| Posted by: RD 2006-10-17 22:31 |
#16 Seriously, our counterterrorism efforts could be much improved. The following quote is from a blog entry written by a GI's significant other about his training prior to be sent to Afghanistan.When S went to Ft. Hood for his "train-up" in December {2004}, he was "briefed" after a month of non-training (he and his Ranger buddies worked out on their own; the national guard leadership had no interest in anything other than eating chicken at Popeye's) by a soldier who had just returned from Iraq. When S and his friend questioned this, asking why they weren't being briefed by a soldier who had served in Afghanistan, the briefer said "What's the difference? They're all in the Middle East." S pointed out that no, Afghanistan isn't in the Middle East, it's in Asia, and then the briefer said incredulously, "Well they're all Arabs, aren't they?!" No surprise, then, that S was the only soldier in his entire group who had studied any Dari at all. In fact, he was the only one who knew Afghans spoke Dari, not Farsi, not Arabic. He was stuck in Ft. Hood for nearly two agonizing months. |
| Posted by: Anguper Hupomosing9418 2006-10-17 20:41 |
| #15 The difference between Sunnis and Shiites is that in some places Sunnis mistreat and kill Shiites, while in other places the reverse is true. |
| Posted by: Anguper Hupomosing9418 2006-10-17 20:35 |
| #14 And the Americans are the ones that whip out a pistol and simply shoot the scimitar waving idiot. |
| Posted by: Indiana Jones 2006-10-17 20:11 |
| #13 And the Shia are the ones swinging around those self-flagellation chains. |
| Posted by: Oldspook 2006-10-17 20:09 |
| #12 “Do you know the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite?” The Sunnis are the ones waving around those cool looking scimitars... |
| Posted by: Raj 2006-10-17 19:52 |
| #11 Careerists that got their positons under Clinton due to connection and got promoted due to ass covering. Thats why we have "policy makeers' at the top of the intel food chain that are abosulte f*ckwits and why product is so damn poor - being mealymouthed instead of direct is an asset for them even though its detrimental to the naiton (c.f. Department of State for similar behavior of being repeatedly wrong and rewarded for it) |
| Posted by: Oldspook 2006-10-17 19:13 |
| #10 The Shiite is the one with the Sunni hands around his neck, and the Sunni is the one with the Shiite hands around his neck. |
| Posted by: gorb 2006-10-17 17:12 |
| #9 The two of them remind me a a setion of the Return of the King book (omitted in the movie) where Frodo and Sam are in Mordor and find a couple of Orcs tracking them - bickering and fighting among themselves until the little one takes off and the larger one follows. Sam mentioned that the Orcs seem to love fighting among themselves and Frodo points out that if they had known they (hobbits) were there they would have droped any hatred and fighting until they (hobbits) were dead "For they hate us far more then they hate each other...". Of course the NYT probably couldn't tell the different between an Orc, Man, Dwarf, or Elf since 'all cultures are the same'.... |
| Posted by: CrazyFool 2006-10-17 17:02 |
| #8 The Sunnis have that crazed-killer look. The Shia look shifty and no-account. Oh. Then Sandy Burglar must be Shia. |
| Posted by: Nimble Spemble 2006-10-17 15:53 |
| #7 Unfortunately some of the folks in government service who do know the difference lack the imagination to see that Sunni and Shia can sometimes cooperate on terrorism just as secular dictators can sponsor religious terrorism. They also seem to have difficulty appreciating the impact of ethnicity (Kurd, Arab, Persian, etc) and its interplay with religious differences. Then, after 20+ years of confusing themselves, eachother and the elected officials they advise, they leak self-serving, inaccurate classified information, sign a book contract and retire to the chat show and lecture circuit. In some ways we're better off with the officials who, lacking a nuanced understanding, just see enemies of the country and therefore targets. Just my 2 cents. |
| Posted by: JAB 2006-10-17 15:35 |
| #6 During the first Gulf War there was an interesting cartoon about telling the difference between Shiite and Shinola. Still applies |
| Posted by: RWV 2006-10-17 15:23 |
| #5 Nice how he leaves out anyone who answered the question correctly. Journalism just how I expect it. |
| Posted by: gromky 2006-10-17 15:18 |
| #4 Yep, f*ck the NYT & their editorial page. However, I always do give credit where it's due, even to assholes I despise like most msm journo-weenies. We are in a war and our reps, intel bubbas, and law dogs better damn well start educating themselves on the divisions in Iraq and how it affects us. Especially basic shit like is Iraq a majority sunni or shiite country. Heck, we've only been there over three years now, you figured some of these jokers could take 10 min's and figure out why the klingers are shooting each other up and whose buttering their bread. I'll take islamic history 101 for a $100 Alex. BTW - I think Jon Stewart is sometimes funny but is usually an oversimplifying ass-clown. Unfortunately a lot of our idiots in congress give him a target rich environment in which to work. |
| Posted by: Broadhead6 2006-10-17 15:16 |
| #3 Better to know the difference between the Hindus and Sikhs and the targets. |
| Posted by: Groter Cletle5455 2006-10-17 15:13 |
| #2 I nice comeback for our intrepid asshat reporter would be: Which of the two wear both black and white turbans? What does it signify? I notice he didn't ask the Frustrated Savior of the World, Dickie Clark. Ol' Dickie can tell with a glance which are which. The Sunnis have that crazed-killer look. The Shia look shifty and no-account. |
| Posted by: .com 2006-10-17 15:06 |
| #1 A more important question is, can the NYT tell its ass from a hole in the ground? (That would be a resounding NO for all you trolls out there; the rest of us already know the answer.) |
| Posted by: Barbara Skolaut 2006-10-17 14:36 |