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| Britain |
| The ID card vote is won |
| 2006-02-14 |
| Most Britons will be forced to have an identity card within five years after MPs defeated the Lords last night, despite a Labour backbench rebellion. Moves to require people to buy ID cards when they request or renew a British passport were carried by 310 votes to 279, a majority of 31. The Government’s Commons majority was halved, but by recent standards the revolt was modest. The result spared Tony Blair embarrassment. The Prime Minister was again absent for a key division after the aircraft bringing him from South Africa was grounded. Gordon Brown, with a big speech on security, and John Prescott, who stood in for Mr Blair at the weekly meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party, appealed to MPs not to damage the Government. The Chancellor spent three hours seeing Labour backbenchers to try to contain the rebellion. The Commons reinstated the Government’s original plans for people to pay an estimated £93 for both documents when they request or renew a British passport from 2008. Critics say that the cost could be higher. The Identity Cards Bill will now go back to the Lords, who had voted to decouple the issuing of ID cards from passports, blocking ministers’ plans to add millions of people to the identity register each year technically on a voluntary basis. The Lords must decide whether to insist that passport applications stay separate from identity cards, amending the Bill again in a “ping-pong” with the Commons, or to give way, which is the more likely option. Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary, moved amendments overturning changes made to the Bill by peers, saying that the Government had made clear that it envisaged linking ID cards to passports as part of their phased introduction. Applicants for residents’ permits and for visas from certain non-European Union countries and asylum-seekers would also be subject to compulsory registration of biometric data — fingerprints and iris scans — on the identity database. Mr Clarke told MPs that certificates issued by the Criminal Records Bureau might in future be added to the list of designated documents requiring registration on the identity database, but Parliament would debate such a move first. Driving licences will not be conditional on having an ID card. Under the Government’s plans, people will be free to apply for an ID card on their own initiative, at a cost estimated to be £30. But relatively few would be expected to, given that potential benefits such as guaranteeing entitlement to public services could apply only if cards became compulsory. If ID cards are linked to passports, 48 million people will eventually have their details added to the national identity register; 12 million do not have a passport. Several Labour MPs unhappy at the plans intervened during Mr Clarke’s remarks. David Davis, the Shadow Home Secretary, opposed the plan to link passports with ID cards, saying that it amounted to “creeping compulsion”: people who had to travel abroad for work, family or other reasons would have no choice but to submit to the identity register. David Blunkett, who had set out plans for identity cards when he was Home Secretary, defended the policy, saying that it would enable the Government to know who was in the country and who was entitled to work and services. Alistair Carmichael, for the Liberal Democrats, gave warning that the move would create an “irresistible momentum” towards compulsion and accused ministers of breaching Labour’s manifesto commitment by linking passports with ID cards. Ministers say that they would be unlikely to make ID cards compulsory until at least 2012, by which time at least one general election would have been held. |
| Posted by:Pappy |
| #28 I think you guys are thinking to linerly. Add this to that OTHER British assault on freedom and privacy. Oh, you don't know what I'm speaking of? The Gallileo GPS system that will support (require) transponders in ALL vehicles so that your "road use" can be taxed appropriatly. Now, want to try some more John Lennon?? (imagine.....it's easy if you try.....) |
| Posted by: AlanC 2006-02-14 17:57 |
| #27 .com if you use all of those methods( fingerprints, retinal data, dna, etc) why would you even need to issue a card? If you are stopped by the authorities all you need to do is stand there and through a retinal scan or fingerprint they will instantly know who you are without the card. Sounds more like a massive database project with the appropriate scanning devices in the field. |
| Posted by: Intrinsicpilot 2006-02-14 17:27 |
| #26 When the banks roll it out, the government should contract with them to issue ID's to.. Banks?? You mean the banks that are more than willing to set up people (*cough*IllegalImmigrants*cough*) with accounts with only a matricula card as identification? Those banks? Something's gotta change drastically before any bank is empowered to do that sort of thing. |
| Posted by: Bomb-a-rama 2006-02-14 16:13 |
| #25 Something like this but smaller. You only need an ID if you are physically there actually. You could even have a couple "backup" ID's. No biologic unit present the ID will not work. Biometric USB flash drive. So much for ID theft. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet O´ Doom 2006-02-14 15:05 |
| #24 Good points, NS. The way I see it, I guess, is: 1) picture of your face on the card - for instant human-level verification 2) signature on the card - sig data is primarily a pressure map as much as the physical character formation - current systems can nail you cold with 4 or 5 sample sigs. Human-level can "see" obvious forgery, so another quickie check there, too. 3) facial map data - this tech is coming along nicely 4) print data - fingers and palms 5) retinal data - both eyes 6) DNA data Then other data as required by status, perm or temp, such as visa info. YOU are proof of who you are once you've been "mapped". Your physical presence, stored away in the main DB, is absolute proof. The card is a convenience. Of course, if you suffer the mother of all accidents or are the victim of incredible violence and have severe facial deformation, double-detached retinas, and amputation of both hands, then it comes down to your DNA... and that doesn't happen overnight... but you'll be pretty busy trying to survive, no? The card is your convenient remote / portable storage device for both your biodata as well as your financial data, voter auth, etc. etc. etc. The list will be extensive - prolly including your library fees due... Just my take. It's coming and it will solve many problems. Yes, it will create fear. Yes it will be inconvenient - once. Yes, there are likely things left out, but that was for smarter folks to work out - like you, NS, heh. Time for me to crash. See yall later. |
| Posted by: .com 2006-02-14 14:57 |
| #23 .com, I don't think the inexpensive part is there yet, but when it is I expect private parties, banks and credit card companies, to roll out biometric ids rapidly. They've got money on the line. The government has nothing at risk. When the banks roll it out, the government should contract with them to issue ID's to non-customers for a fee to be charged to the state. The data should be entered into a national database the governemnt maintains, much as SSN is entered into a db when you get a DL. These ID could be used for positive ID at polling places and to obtain other government docs such as passports and DL And biometric data should be linked to ALL financial accounts in the country and there should be no financial account without biometric ID data. |
| Posted by: Nimble Spemble 2006-02-14 14:26 |
| #22 If we do get ID cards, I insist on being stopped in check points for ID. If they don't put it to use, then I'm against ID cards. Also, gotta use them to vote. That should create about 8 more red states. |
| Posted by: wxjames 2006-02-14 14:15 |
| #21 Biometrics. What's in the card exists in "the systems" - and you can verify who you are in a simple visit to any ID authorizing location. Do you really think that fingerprint data, retinal data, etc., ALL of them in combination, is "hackable" and do you not think that resolving your identity through those means wouldn't be straight-forward? Hell, such devices are dirt-cheap, now. IBM has the fingerprint tech built into one line of laptops. Look at identity theft today, as an example of something very bad and very very messy that could be stopped dead in its tracks. I suggest that this is not being thought through, as requested. S'okay. It won't be resolved here, today. But this will come, because we do have the means, now, to easily and inexpensively and uniquely ID ourselves. No offense, but I won't be the one who has to "get over it". |
| Posted by: .com 2006-02-14 14:03 |
| #20 OK guys, what happens (Moonbattery aside) if an honest mistake causes tour "One Card" to malfunction, be deleted, is hacked, computer corrupted etc. Under the "one Card" plan, simply put, you're fucked. Where we have the several differebt cards (DL, SS, Bank, Credit, etc) there's backup. I think you've not realized the pure havoc if this one card is rendered invalid, through any means, think IRS freeze untill you pay all your (Real, or by error) back taxes, or if the govt decides you're a faker. A single card is so much more prone to destroy you than any combination of two or more different sourced cards would ever be. Think of this scenario, suddenly all your cards, ID, drivers License etc were rendered invalid at the same time, and your boss says your bank has frozen your account, the mortgage on your home were called in, your bank would neither take or give you any money, no ATM's would work, and you could only exist on the cash you have on hand right now. Scared now? Bad, Bad, idea. |
| Posted by: Redneck Jim 2006-02-14 13:49 |
| #19 All depends on how serious you are about it. Death penalty for manufacture or carrying of a fake would certainly show real intent. Anything else and we're back to where we are today with stuff we carry day to day. Whine, cry, hand wringing, but, but, but...If you don't have the guts to back it up, just skip it. |
| Posted by: Glolugum Unotle4665 2006-02-14 13:15 |
| #18 * Yes Seafarious, I was aware that Pak land = Forge land, more precisely, because it's a national industry of Pakistan, will our new "National ID card" be knocked off anyway? |
| Posted by: RD 2006-02-14 13:09 |
| #17 Well, they don't ALL come from PakiWakiLand... |
| Posted by: .com 2006-02-14 12:47 |
| #16 Identity papers forgery is prolly Pakland's 3rd major export after deobandism and taxi drivers. /did i really say that? |
| Posted by: Seafarious 2006-02-14 12:41 |
| #15 mojo what does mix and match mean? Seafarious, are you saying that any national ID will be knocked off [Pac]? Or a national ID will put them out of business. |
| Posted by: RD 2006-02-14 12:33 |
| #14 The Paki-Waki Full Employment Act of 2006. |
| Posted by: Seafarious 2006-02-14 12:01 |
| #13 Trade 'em. Mix-n-match ID. |
| Posted by: mojo 2006-02-14 11:31 |
| #12 An ID card wont work. I hear that said over and over, but few people ever bother to explain WHY it won't work. Care to elaborate? |
| Posted by: Bomb-a-rama 2006-02-14 11:06 |
| #11 Remember that the 911 murderers were all in your country legitimately. Not all of them. And, AFAICR, some of those who got in on legitimate visas overstayed them. |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2006-02-14 11:03 |
| #10 BP - I'd say you're missing the real point and the positive possibilities. A single ID, as knock-off proof as can be made - and there are several bio-tech answers here, whether permanent (citizen) or temporary (alien). Encode with info. For Temp (Aliens) it auto-expires in synch with their visa - going into RFID alert mode if not renewed by authorized agency. This would go a looong looong way toward stopping the illegal dead in his tracks. Picture it: no bank, or ATM, or local check-cashing firm, or credit card transactions or anyone else will deliver up funds / services once the card goes into alert mode... and a hundred other similar stop-points. FrankG, SPOD & dotcom have it right. BTW, I own you. - I'm not your Govt, I'm your Banker / Lender / Boss. Rethink without the knee-jerk. |
| Posted by: Snaish Flaving9011 2006-02-14 07:02 |
| #9 An ID card wont work. Remember that the 911 murderers were all in your country legitimately. You ID tag something you own. The state does not, should not and will not own me. |
| Posted by: Bright Pebbles 2006-02-14 06:00 |
| #8 the minumum Drivers Lic SS Business credit card Personal credit card Bank card Contractors lic insurance card library card Cash ..the rest are in the desk I'm all for the national id, IF they really make it difficult to knock off. |
| Posted by: RD 2006-02-14 03:09 |
| #7 Spot-on, SPo'D. Excellent points. I thought about it for a long time before coming over, too. Now, it seems obvious to me - and I really do blame the tinfoil morons in the media who've tried to brainwash us all against authority... hoping to become the authority themselves, I'd wager. |
| Posted by: .com 2006-02-14 02:25 |
| #6 I have come 180 on this. Mostly because the left is so wood headed and loonie about it. I like my privacy but I don't have any urealistic belief that I really have any. If the governmet wanted to track me it wouldn't need an ID to do it. Following the money will do it. My access to my money tells them what I am up to and where almost every day. Unlike most US citizens I do have a Passport. No ID no government services. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet O´ Doom 2006-02-14 02:17 |
| #5 Agreed. As Frank points out, we already have 2 "ID cards" - our DL and Passport. We can't get along without the DL, period. The Passport is essential for travel. What's the big deal? Stupidity and CogDis manifest as irrational fear. We need one, extremely well thought-out, efficiently designed, comprehensive, and secure ID. Just one. The security advantages are obvious, if people put aside their irrational compulsively conspiracy-ridden selves and consider it honestly. A no-brainer that only the criminals, asshats, and shallow-thinkers / addled can hate. I blame Hollyweird and novelists for the drum-beat of (at least) two generations of Bad Govt, Rogue Govt, Bad Apple Individual, Eeevil Corporation, Konspiracy Kool Aid BS masquerading as plot-lines. Ooooooh! So Skeeeeery! Pfeh. Gutless turds, the lot. No offense intended... except for assholes and fools. |
| Posted by: .com 2006-02-14 01:38 |
| #4 .com, opposition to this unites many on the Left and Right. I fought the Libertarians at Samizdata on this issue for well over year, then I found the Burg and left them to it. The Left and Right's objections come down to more or less the same thing - vague government conspiracies and 1984 Big Brother is watching you type fears of behavioural controls. The idea is being floated at the moment in Oz. Getting the OK in Britain, makes it more likely here. BTW, making it voluntary is a smart move. We will see all kinds of little benefits to those who have one that will drive adoption. |
| Posted by: phil_b 2006-02-14 01:17 |
| #3 I used to be against it, but with every transaction asking for a DL or SSN it's not a matter of if, but when. Just do it right, and anyone caught forgin'/stealing/creating ID's....kill em |
| Posted by: Frank G 2006-02-14 01:09 |
| #2 Be afraid. Be very afraid. /tinfoil hat Agreed, phil_b. But you know what's coming, lol. |
| Posted by: .com 2006-02-14 01:04 |
| #1 IMO, the single most important step to combat terrorism and crime any country could take. |
| Posted by: phil_b 2006-02-14 00:59 |