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Fifth Column
Jane Fonda: U.S. Troops Are 'Killing Machines'
2005-12-14
"Hanoi Jane" Fonda is claiming that ever since Vietnam, U.S. troops have been trained to commit atrocities against innocent civilians as a matter of military policy. "Starting with the Vietnam War we began training soldiers differently," the anti-American actress says in an email to the Washington Post. Fonda claims she learned of the policy switch in "secret meetings" she had with military psychologists "who were really worried about what was happening to our combat personnel." One doctor, she insists, told her U.S. troops had been deliberately trained to be "killing machines."
Rather than as ernest debators of weighty subjects they know little about...
"This began," Fonda maintained, "because the military discovered that in World War II and Korea, [U.S.] soldiers weren't killing enough. So they changed training procedures" to teach troops how to commit atrocities."
True. The venerable M1 was replaced by weapons with more ammunition capacity. Greater reliance was placed on air support. Artillery went from being towed by horses to being self-propelled. The Russers invented the operational maneuver group, and we took the idea and built the combined arms concept. The entire purpose of warfare is to kill the enemy, and the side that does it better wins.
Still, the anti-war gadfly cautions, it's important not to blame the soldiers themselves for carrying out war crimes.
They don't know any better, see? Being simple proles and all...
Recalling the "Winter Soldier" hearings that she and John Kerry staged in 1971, Fonda lamented: "When you put young people into an atrocity-producing situation where enemy and civilian are commingled, where the 'other side' is dehumanized, we cannot be surprised." Anti-war vets now returning from Iraq, Fonda cautioned, should be listened to instead of being dismissed as "unpatriotic."
Antiwar vets returning from Iraq are vastly outnumbered by guys who're proud of their accomplishments.
"We have not learned the lessons of Vietnam," she declared.
And as usual everything is Just like Vietnam™. Why can't something be like the Blackhawk War? Or the War of Jenkins' Ear? Can we have a battle that's like Austerlitz, rather than like Tet '68? Just once?
Posted by:Anonymoose

#37  FUCK YOU JANE!!!!!!!

Sorry Fred for the profanity but this cunt is deserving.
Posted by: 49 pan   2005-12-14 23:14  

#36  FOTSGreg

Much like all other things reported in the media, the hacket job on Marshall didn't turn out as originally reported. Everyone initially bought into one critic's assault without checking [like that is unusual these days]. They've since found materials the critic claimed didn't exist and the critic's timeline of Marshall's movements didn't quite sync. So now we live with a new urban legend. So what's new.
BTW, Marshall did a follow up study on the Korean fight, not the history the River and the Gauntlet. Infantry Operations and Weapon's Usage in Korea, by SLAM, very detailed analysis. Hunt it down, read it, and then judge the veracity of both authors.
Posted by: Hupase Unomomp2651   2005-12-14 22:56  

#35  Jane Fonda: U.S. Troops Are 'Killing Machines'

And her point is? However, one thing our troops are not is mindless killing machines. Something she seems all too glad to impute. If this moron wants first hand knowledge of war crimes and atrocities, she should pay a jailhouse visit to Saddam and help sift through some of his mass graves.

She needs to toddle off and service fellow quagmireist Ted Kennedy. At least that way her mouth would be full and we'd be spared having to hear any more of this idiotic drivel. If this whore hates America so much, why is she still here?
Posted by: Zenster   2005-12-14 20:33  

#34  was it her or her vagina speaking...I never know lately. Could you read her lips?
Posted by: Frank G   2005-12-14 20:21  

#33  Didn't she apologize for her Viet Nam stunt on David Letterman not so long ago? Or was that more of an explanation of why she did it?
Posted by: Rafael   2005-12-14 19:19  

#32  Try to understand the inner agony of a woman who reached her intellectual peak in Barbarella. For that matter, she is starting to look her age now, so there really isn't any reason left to pay any attenetion to her. If her father hadn't been Henry Fonda, she would have been just another piece of ass used and discarded by the amazingly intolerant free love / peace movement.
Posted by: RWV   2005-12-14 18:51  

#31  Heh! I'm not surprised you guys are having a field day with this one! After the Vietnam War, a few decent lefties did sign a petition protesting the crimes of the Stalinist regime that took control of the South. Hanoi Jane not only refused to sign it, but said the US had a lot to learn from the commies in the provision of social services!

I would recommend you people get a book called 'The Vietnamese Gulag' by Doan Van Toai. Stick it in Jane's mouth whenever she opens it to talk about Vietnam.
Posted by: Apostate   2005-12-14 18:39  

#30  SLA Marshall's contention in, I believe, "Men Under Fire" has been loudly and soundly discredited.

Marshall claimed to have interviewed the entire complement of men from over 300 rifle companies. It has been proven that that simply never happened. Marshall may have interviewed 30 men from half a dozen companies that were never near combat according to the authorities.

When interviewed in regards to Marshall's findings, German soldiers are reported to have something to the extent of "We never saw any hesitation of American soldiers in combat to use their weapons".

The program was a load of bull - just like Hanoi Jane.

Posted by: FOTSGreg   2005-12-14 18:36  

#29  Tookie died and this bitch still lives?
Posted by: Besoeker   2005-12-14 18:28  

#28  "I said 'Sarge, I wanna kill. I mean, I wanna KILL! I wanna eat dead, burnt bodies and pick things from between m'teeth. I WANNA KILL!'"
-- Alice's Resturaunt
Posted by: mojo   2005-12-14 18:04  

#27  LiberalHawk, I dont think North Korea evolved in the right direction. But I *do* take your meaning.

I say we trade her for some (or even none!) of the Hostages the terroroists have. Solve two problems at once. She might even grow a clue (but I doubt it... its damn hard to teach an old bitch new tricks)
Posted by: CrazyFool   2005-12-14 17:30  

#26  Matt, you're right, I think that's what it was. (And also, on second reading, I didn't phrase my comment correctly)

I don't recall this documentary being negative towards the military. There was certainly no mention of atrocities or killing civilians. That's where Fonda's creative thinking skills come into play.
Posted by: Rafael   2005-12-14 16:32  

#25  Depends. How much would we have to pay him?
Posted by: Matt   2005-12-14 16:00  

#24  Can't we sell her to some decrepit, yet randy, sheik?
Posted by: ed   2005-12-14 15:50  

#23  Rafael, I didn't see the documentary, but the idea sounds like a version of the "SLAM" Marshall post-WWII study based on group interviews which in part concluded (IIRC) that only about 10% of the troops engaged in any given firefight actually discharged their weapons. The validity of the study was (again IIRC) later questioned. How someone gets from there to "atrocities" I have no idea. Other than by being a lying, America-hating bitch, that is.
Posted by: Matt   2005-12-14 15:22  

#22  I sure hope Jane Fondue is right. That's what we spend good money to train our military to do, kill people and break things, I'm all for it.

Jane Fondue doesn't realize that this is a complement.
Posted by: Captain America   2005-12-14 14:02  

#21  Round targets rarely fire at you, but human target do. Gee I hope the LLL latch onto this Run Forrest Run. Heck it has been hours since one of said something stoopid.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge   2005-12-14 12:07  

#20  "This began," Fonda maintained, "because the military discovered that in World War II and Korea, [U.S.] soldiers weren't killing enough. So they changed training procedures" to teach troops how to commit atrocities."

Wait a second. This sounds vaguely familiar. There was a documentary about this on TV (A&E?) a while ago. Fonda may be correct, but she twists everything to suit her purposes.

The documentary claimed that the military discovered in WW2 (particularly the Pacific campaign) that only a small percentage of troops at a time actually fire their weapons in combat.
The military designed a training technique to develop a "programmed" response to kill. A black, human-shaped target pops up in the distance, and the soldier fires his weapon as quickly as possible. The end result is faster response times, and soldiers being used to shooting at "humans", instead of just a round target.

Fonda saw the same documentary, and twisted everything. Which just tells you everything you need to know about her. Wotta loser.
Posted by: Rafael   2005-12-14 12:01  

#19  If our soldiers were really mindless killbots they would've turned Hanoi Jane into a grease spot long ago. In her case they've shown almost superhuman restraint...
Posted by: PBMcL   2005-12-14 11:52  

#18  "And as usual everything is Just like Vietnam™. Why can't something be like the Blackhawk War? Or the War of Jenkins' Ear? Can we have a battle that's like Austerlitz, rather than like Tet '68? Just once? "

Tactically, like the Malay emergency, various small wars as described by Max Boot, etc.

Strategically, it may well end up like Korea. Neither a grand victory, nor a defeat - and the setting up of a regime thats none too pretty at first, but that evolves in the right direction.
Posted by: liberalhawk   2005-12-14 11:51  

#17  Simply said: FUCK YOU JANE!!!
Posted by: ARMYGUY   2005-12-14 11:12  

#16  tu - snort! - excellent reference to SNL.
Posted by: Doc8404   2005-12-14 11:00  

#15  robert - maybe there is still time. I'd always held out hope that she'd do the deed herself.
Posted by: 2b   2005-12-14 10:49  

#14  Jane, you ignorant slut. While the American fighting man may have indeed changed, it's important to note that skanked out, ill informed, hippie douchebags have also evolved. They are now dried out, ill informed, elderly hippie douchebags living off the pity millions of the elderly millionaires they willingly spread their legs for before finally being cast aside like so much used up trash. Please remember that the next time you talking vagina decides to sing show tunes.
Posted by: tu3031   2005-12-14 10:45  

#13  in a very perverse way, I enjoy watching Jane humiliate herself in this way. She could have written it off to youthful stupidity and asked for forgiveness and at least died with a shred of dignity. Now she's just a wacky, creepy ol' grandma whose the ultimate whore for the camera.
Posted by: 2b   2005-12-14 10:42  

#12  Why wasn't this bitch hanged for treason?
Posted by: Robert Crawford   2005-12-14 10:41  

#11  Hokay, posters, you heard bigjim-ky, no more MoveOn.org commie bullshit today. Save it for tomorrow :-)
Posted by: Steve White   2005-12-14 10:40  

#10  Well, i'm full up to my eyeballs of MoveOn.org communist bullshit for one day.
Posted by: bigjim-ky   2005-12-14 10:32  

#9  "Hanoi Jane" Fonda is claiming that ever since Vietnam, U.S. troops have..

It's 2005 Jane, not 1968. Snap out of it.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama   2005-12-14 10:26  

#8  We are killing machines. You put an enemy near us, we kill them. Ruthlessly, efficiently. However, we are also very away of the Iraqi populace and do our best to help them out. Building, carrying candy for the kids, health care.
You are rapidly falling into the enemy camp Fonda. Think about it.
Posted by: mmurray821   2005-12-14 10:25  

#7  Think about all the energy the Hollyweird left spend fawning over Tookie. Now if there was a role model for evil and atrocities that miscreant would certainly qualify. If anyone would extrapolate his behavior to broadly tag all black people as being nothing less than a plague on society, that accuser would be labeled a racist. However, when personalities like this Fonda engages in such display of bigotry and hate, her fellow travelers don’t even seemed embarrassed in the least. You know Congress can rewrite the libel laws to allow class action suits by those of our uniformed services for such idiocy. In anyone’s defense, the very foundation of the free press, the case of the Royal Governor of New York versus the publisher Peter Zenger, established that the truth is a defense. Belief is not proof or truth. Let these creatures defend their outbursts in a court of law.
Posted by: Gloling Whaviger2034   2005-12-14 10:10  

#6  I guess since her "apology" earlier this year didn't work, she's up to her same old tricks.
Posted by: Desert Blondie   2005-12-14 09:56  

#5  C'mon Deacon, the soldiers only *think* they go to extreme lengths, 'cos they're told to think that. The conditioning for atrocities is subliminal; possibly even a Halliburton implant. Only smart folks like Hanoi Jane can pick up the evilbot transmissions...
Posted by: Seafarious   2005-12-14 09:54  

#4  No, Jane's play friends, the communist of South East Asia, in cold blood, killed over a million Cambodians in the third Holocaust of the 20th Century and we heard not a word of disapproval from Comrade Jane. Guess she's only concern that her side is losing that makes the difference and not the fate of those caught in between.
Posted by: Phomoger Chart2209   2005-12-14 09:52  

#3  All the returning soldiers I have talked to have told me they go to extreme lengths to avoid any civilian casualties. This lying weasel id just that, a lying weasel.
Posted by: Deacon Blues   2005-12-14 09:48  

#2  "... in World War II and Korea, [U.S.] soldiers weren't killing enough."
No, they killed ENOUGH (we won), but it would have been better if they had killed them SOONER, and with fewer losses of their own. So now we try to train and equip our soldiers better. But not to commit attrocities - unless, like Jane, you think killing your enemy is an atrocity.
Posted by: Glenmore   2005-12-14 09:47  

#1  No Jane, on the contrary, YOU have not learned the lessons of Vietnam.

Seems like the US military has learned and applied the lessons well.
Posted by: john   2005-12-14 09:39  

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