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| Iraq-Jordan |
| Iraq bomb attack kills 14 marines |
| 2005-08-03 |
| Fourteen marines and their civilian translator have been killed in a roadside bombing in north-western Iraq, the US military says. It is one of the deadliest attacks on US forces since the 2003 invasion. It happened near the city of Haditha, in the same area as an incident on Monday in which six US marines were killed by hostile fire, the army said. The city is near the Syrian border in an area that has seen frequent insurgent assaults against US troops. The bomb is reported to have exploded near an amphibious assault vehicle travelling south of Haditha. One other marine was wounded. One of Iraq's most violent Islamic militant groups, Ansar al-Sunna, has claimed responsibility for the attack on marines on Monday, saying it had killed eight personnel. The group said it had shot some of the marines and "slit the throats" of others. A ninth marine is said to have been captured although it is not possible to authenticate the statement. At least 37 US military personnel have been killed in Iraq in the last 10 days, a period of intense violence, but the latest Haditha attack ranks among the biggest US losses. Last December, 14 US troops and four civilian contractors died in a suicide bombing targeting a military base in Mosul. Only air crashes, with or without hostile fire, have resulted in higher US death tolls, including 16 in the November 2003 loss of a Chinook helicopter near Falluja and 31 in a helicopter crash in January 2005 near the Jordanian border. Pacifying Iraq's western Anbar province, where Haditha is located, is a top priority for US forces. Officials say stability and political progress cannot be secured unless anti-US fighters are rooted out of the region. |
| Posted by:Steve |
| #74 AC: thanks for the links. I think the engines are in the -c mod program, but am not sure. L8r. |
| Posted by: Phil Fraering 2005-08-03 23:36 |
| #73 AC, thank you for a serious discussion. My 'witness protection program' comment was meant to be semi-sarcastic. Sammy the Bull would not be a good candidate as an assassin, but there might still be something to be learned. Keep in mind that we already engage in targeted assassination through the various "decapitation" strikes that have been carried out with indifferent success during the last few years. Yes, the generally safe, reach-out-and- touch-someone. Little risk for the operators, unless one considers Libya. As for someone blathering, keep in mind that claims of this kind of activity are a regular staple of the Arab media, and many others besides, so a fog of fiction helps to conceal the cold reality. I wasn't concerned about in-country. My concern was more with the 'home office'. The CIA is a ideology-over-purpose disaster, Congress leaks like a sieve, and most of the Pentagon, especially in the civil service, cannot be trusted. This was actually discussed in some depth yesterday at LGF. I don't normally read the LGF comments, but I will take a browse over there. Thank you again. |
| Posted by: Pappy 2005-08-03 22:37 |
| #72 God bless the Marines and their families. They are inour hearts. The Marines will respond as they always do. They will not destroy the whole city, they will, however, gather intel, calmly and deliberately build a plan and execute that plan with the most extreem violence and accuracy the rag heads have ever seen. NSDQ! |
| Posted by: 49 pan 2005-08-03 22:31 |
| #71 I LIKE it! A man named Galloway was born to hang. Set up the Pay-Per-View and let's get this show on the road! |
| Posted by: 2b 2005-08-03 22:24 |
| #70 Not snarky at all, 2b. A couple of years ago, Malkovich created a media storm in the UK by saying publicly that he would like to kill Galloway. The latter swine started some sort of legal action, on the ironic grounds of Malkovich making a terroristic threat, but it didn't go anywhere. |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2005-08-03 22:23 |
| #69 AC - I'm sure it was snarky and deserved - but I don't get it. |
| Posted by: 2b 2005-08-03 22:16 |
| #68 and no offense, Fred. Intel pukes rule! |
| Posted by: 2b 2005-08-03 22:15 |
| #67 That's it, 2b! We can recruit John Malkovich to run the project. |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2005-08-03 22:12 |
| #66 tw.. Ok. I'm sure we can all agree that Galloway would be a good choice for the gallows! Then a few of those mouthy Iams. But we have to agree to quit before we grow to fond of it! |
| Posted by: 2b 2005-08-03 22:11 |
| #65 Phil, I didn't know much off-hand about the A-10 modernization, other than the structural and operability life extensions, but did dig up some good links. A-10C makes first flight This has a lot of new avionics, mainly aimed at improving interoperability, and an extensive upgrade in weapons capability. A-10 service life This discusses the new engines, but does not indicate whether they are included in the C mod program. |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2005-08-03 22:10 |
| #64 oh...never mind. I'm starting to sound like Robespierre. My list of people I'd like to see exit this earth is just getting way too long. I don't know what to do. |
| Posted by: 2b 2005-08-03 22:09 |
| #63 Careful, 2b -- I think Fred used to be a pasty faced intel puke once upon a time. ;-) But I'll happily second your Galloway proposal. Let's put his gallows right outside Saddam's prison window, since they are so fond of one another. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2005-08-03 22:07 |
| #62 I have to disagree with you on one point, AC. While I think we should embrace the idea of targeted killings, rather than it being secret, secret, I think it should be up front and personal - like the good ol' day's, Wanted, dead or alive. If someone is worth killing - then make the case for it and put them down. I don't want to go back to those dark days where some pasty-faced intel puke makes the call. I made the point before - and I'll make it again right now, that we are fighting like the British fought against the American rebels. We are hindered by some notion of "civility" that our opponets exploit and use to kill us. Hey, I'm all for civility. But I think it's more civil to simply identify those who are at war with us and kill or capture them than it is to allow hundreds or thousands of innocents to be slaughtered. But let's be up front about it. Few of us want to go back to those dark shadowy CIA days. I vote Galloway be first for the gallows. Do I hear a second? |
| Posted by: 2b 2005-08-03 21:58 |
| #61 Pappy I have not at this point created a formal proposal for a covert assassination program, but you will receive a copy if I do. I hadn't thought of using killers from the witness protection program. Somehow I don't think they would do well in ME covert ops. Keep in mind that we already engage in targeted assassination through the various "decapitation" strikes that have been carried out with indifferent success during the last few years. These have killed the wrong people on a fairly routine basis. Individual close-in targeting would be more precise than a JDAM on a local restaurant any way you cut it. In this case, the model for C3 would have to be something like the Mossad's Operation Gideon, completely outside the regular chain of command but with enough covert parallel links to ensure adequate intel and resources. The operators would depend on the venue. Specop troops could do it lawfully within Iraq. A special directorate, with comprehensive and multiply redundant extra-governmental cover, would be used outside the country. The ultimate authority would be the POTUS and DCI, but these would have to be insulated from actual operations. The effective authority would be the operational head of the program. As for someone blathering, keep in mind that claims of this kind of activity are a regular staple of the Arab media, and many others besides, so a fog of fiction helps to conceal the cold reality. This was actually discussed in some depth yesterday at LGF. |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2005-08-03 21:46 |
| #60 What's the rank of a little civilian housewife/mother in the suburbs? How about one who can't keep her thoughts to herself -- does that rate a promotion... or a demotion? ;-) |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2005-08-03 21:36 |
| #59 AC: Do you have any idea of the per-plane cost of the upgrade program they're putting them through, and if that includes the new engines or not? (Did they go with the new engines?) Maybe we should continue this at a future date, I still have work to do here. Although suprisingly someone else fixed the toilet last week, they also told me today the sink in the other bathroom is broken. (Honestly). I should just blow it off and go eat... |
| Posted by: Phil Fraering 2005-08-03 21:19 |
| #58 So, Pappy, do you think opinions and commentary should be limited to general officers and Those Who Work for PeaceTM or would field-grade be acceptable? Field grade is acceptable, although holding a command (however briefly) in a combat situation at a lower rank is okay. In all seriousness, it's not the rank. It's the rank stupidity of the armchair-generals' comments. "As soon as a terrorist is identified, he should be dragged from his safe house in the middle of the night, shot with a suppressed pistol and left in the street for all to see." Oh, how do you propose to do this? Who would you send? CIA? SPECOPS? Subcontracted Mossad agents? 'Turned' Baathists? Troops in the neighborhood? Coerced members of MS-13? Killers in the Witness Protection Program? Who does the intel? Who verifies the intel? What happens if the wrong guy is killed? How do you propose to keep it quiet when somebody blathers that US or US trained/contracted hit squads are working Iraq or Syria? I don't know what you did as an O-6, sir. I'd like to hope there was long-range thinking involved. |
| Posted by: Pappy 2005-08-03 20:58 |
| #57 If we had the technology This would be my first cut at a solution. |
| Posted by: 3dc 2005-08-03 20:54 |
| #56 Come to think of it, I am the janitor sometimes. A friend of mine who ran his own business for 50 years once told me, "To get stuck with cleaning toilets in a small business, you either have to be on the very bottom rung of the ladder or you have to own the place. Nobody else will do it." We don't have a bottom rung at my place, so guess what? (Actually, a contractor cleans the toilets, but I end up doing all sorts of other cleaning and repair type stuff). |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2005-08-03 20:43 |
| #55 Me too, leader. It breaks my heart that these guys were reservists, all from the same town. I have been very angry over it. I probably shouldn't have watched the jihadists' revolting snuff film today, but I have seen worse and if we flinch, there is nobody left. |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2005-08-03 20:37 |
| #54 Phil A-10 $9.8 mil, constant 1998 dollars. This obviously does not include the ground support equipment and facilities. |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2005-08-03 20:32 |
| #53 Roger that re: political burials, AC. And quietly mourning the loss of our find Marines today, along with their brave translator. |
| Posted by: leader of the pack 2005-08-03 20:31 |
| #52 leader of the pack, O-6 retired, but I could just as well be the janitor for all anyone here knows, so my case must stand or fall on its own merit. I've pushed very hard for additional UAVs since the 1970s. Nobody has called for these to be built overnight, but the Predator program alone has been underway and indeed operational for a number of years. It is not a new technology. No matter how much PR material we hear, though, major deployment is always just around the corner. As for building the base stations, you are aware, I trust, that the whole system is mobile? What is $10 Billion compared to the cost of, say, a thousand F-16s and all their ground-support facilities and equipment? If this system, and the galaxy of other perpetually developmental UAVs, are the super force-multipliers we have been lead to believe, and that the operational experience suggests they are, then this is not really an enormous amount. Given the timescale and your figures, we could in fact have deployed, and afforded, a couple of thousand of these by now and there are many, many much less costly UAVs with the same lengthy history. I am well aware of the difference between a Predator and a micro-UAV which is why I said "...the Air Force for its part." As it happens, I am also aware that the micros are not the only Marine UAVs, The Pioneer UAVwas operational with the Marines during DS-1 and was based on the battle-proven Israeli Scout UAV. Where are they today? Pioneer Homepage UAVs seem to be one of those technologies that is re-invented every couple of decades, then quickly swept under the rug for political reasons. DoD UAV Procurement, Congressional Testimony, 4/09/97 |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2005-08-03 20:26 |
| #51 Body counts make me puke. While our Muslimutts support terror in Iraq, our courts are supporting defamation claims of Islamic vermin. Muslims are terrorists by nature, and terrorists do not deserve protection from harassment. www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,16147860%255E23109,00.html http://news.baou.com/main.php?action=recent&rid=20389 |
| Posted by: Vlad the Muslim Impaler 2005-08-03 19:55 |
| #50 I believe the current "A" version runs at 25 million per group of four, the last time I talked to someone who ran the damn things. I *think* this works out to about the same cost as the A-10's that carry several times as much munitions but the Air Force has said in the past it can't afford to put new sensors or engines on. (They're finally doing it now, but cutting the force at the same time). One of these days I'm going to have to get the uav rant done... |
| Posted by: Phil Fraering 2005-08-03 19:54 |
| #49 One Predator version's stats: The RQ-1A/B Predator is a system, not just aircraft. A fully operational system consists of four aircraft (with sensors), a ground control station (GCS), a Predator Primary Satellite Link (PPSL), and 55 personnel for continuous 24 hour operations. System Cost: $40 million (1997 dollars) So let's see ... one thousand Predators = 250 systems = $10 billion, without taking into account where/how the ground control stations will be built overnight .... |
| Posted by: leader of the pack 2005-08-03 19:41 |
| #48 AC, if you're retired - or current - field grade then you should know the difference between a Predator and the microUAVs that the Marines are using for short-range recon. And WRT "thousands" of Predators, I take it you've lobbied for the No doubt you've been pushing that hard. Because if not, then you're pushing secondhand smoke on the UAV comment. |
| Posted by: leader of the pack 2005-08-03 19:39 |
| #47 Damned impressive...... hummmm.... You got any Ollega blood Pappy? |
| Posted by: Shipman 2005-08-03 19:38 |
| #46 Were at war with Syria and Iran. Unless we cause regime changes in both of those states we'll ultimately lose. |
| Posted by: BillH 2005-08-03 19:37 |
| #45 So, Pappy, do you think opinions and commentary should be limited to general officers and Those Who Work for PeaceTM or would field-grade be acceptable? |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2005-08-03 19:33 |
| #44 Heh - a classic Pappy. And right on target. |
| Posted by: leader of the pack 2005-08-03 19:32 |
| #43 Thank you, Pappy. That needed to be said. I imagine they'll all be storming your bunker now. Should we set up a donation fund for ammunition? |
| Posted by: Phil Fraering 2005-08-03 19:32 |
| #42 Definitely cannot trust Syria and I don't understand what Bush is waiting for in that case. I am the very model of a modern Armchair General I have the answers to it all both concrete and ephemeral I can talk for hours on a blog of waging war and victory though I have never led even a toy-soldier army I can tell you lessons learned from 'Nam and how we must drop the atom bomb or send our ninjas far and wide. And kill all muslims where they hide... (stick with me, this is going to go fast) I say the US has no guts because I am a patriot And if they aren't US they're no good so let's just nuke their neighborhood Our leadership simply has no balls they should be nailing muslim guts to the mosque walls and though I pass out when I bleed "Kill them all" is what we need I can talk for hours on a blog of waging war and victory Col. Braddock and Rambo are real fighting heroes, you see I have the answers to it all both concrete and ephemeral I am the very model of a modern Armchair General! |
| Posted by: Pappy 2005-08-03 19:11 |
| #41 I can tell we both enjoy fine Cuban food. A point to remember. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2005-08-03 19:06 |
| #40 I said studied by morons. Death squareds are of course the very key to winning wars of all sorts. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2005-08-03 19:02 |
| #39 "Where the fuck are these vaunted UAVs we keep hearing so much about? It should be possible to deploy thousands of them but the Air Force, for its part, has just 12 of the much publicized Predators operational. Marine UAVs, the subject of much propaganda for a number of years, seem notable mostly for their absence. In the meantime, the savages feel perfectly secure posing and capering in the open near a recent ambush site." Excellent point! |
| Posted by: Crispis-asstuck 2005-08-03 18:47 |
| #38 Crispis is right. Assassination teams should begin targeting known jihadis and enablers. We can't identify or kill all of them, but we don't need to. As soon as a terrorist is identified, he should be dragged from his safe house in the middle of the night, shot with a suppressed pistol and left in the street for all to see. The worst offenders, the ones who boast of mutilating American soldiers, should have their heads cut off and impaled in some public place. |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2005-08-03 18:45 |
| #37 "#26 Okay, you're right and I'm inarticulate. The Phoenix program won the war and broke the back of the VC, a magnificent victory for covert operations and death squads, one that should be studied to this day, by morons. Posted by: Shipman 2005-08-03 15:05" Hey Shipman: If you want to argue like a juvenile (see *Bullshit* comment), be my guess. As a teacher I constantly run into this type of argument ... from NINTH GRADERS! Where did I write that the Phoenix Program won the war for us? What I wrote, and I could kick myself for having thrown away the book by one of the VC's top operatives who admitted the impact of both Tet and Phoenix, was that the latter broke the VC's back, one that already was wounded by 1968. BTW: Stephen J. Morris wrote an interesting piece about our so-called defeat in Vietnam: The War We Could Have Wonhttp://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17908 And I wrote that a combination of maximum military force and covert assassinations' programs to wipe out Sunni Finally, I had family that served in the "Company" and I take exception to your implication that they and their covert operations' officers are morons. You're better than that. |
| Posted by: Crispis-asstuck 2005-08-03 18:43 |
| #36 I've seen the Answar Al Sunnah video of the incident yesterday. I am not going to link to it, no way, since the video includes a close-up of the mutilated but still recognizable corpse of one of the Marines. It looks for all the world that the six Marines were traveling in a civilian vehicle and were ambushed. The "throat-slitting" apparently refers to the killing of the wounded afterward. It may be that one of the men was captured, since Centcom reports that one body was found several kilometers away. Among other things, the jihad pigs are shown firing a mortar in plain sight on the crest of a ridge line and posing in the open with the looted equipment and effects afterward. Where the fuck are these vaunted UAVs we keep hearing so much about? It should be possible to deploy thousands of them but the Air Force, for its part, has just 12 of the much publicized Predators operational. Marine UAVs, the subject of much propaganda for a number of years, seem notable mostly for their absence. In the meantime, the savages feel perfectly secure posing and capering in the open near a recent ambush site. |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2005-08-03 18:32 |
| #35 strange - I clicked once. It hung for a few mins and now I see 3 dups. |
| Posted by: 3dc 2005-08-03 18:12 |
| #34 My impression is that equivalent numbers of non-muslims all on LSD would exhibit, on a society basis, more order and logic than one sees in the Suni triangle. |
| Posted by: 3dc 2005-08-03 18:11 |
| #33 My impression is that equivalent numbers of non-muslims all on LSD would exhibit, on a society basis, more order and logic than one sees in the Suni triangle. |
| Posted by: 3dc 2005-08-03 18:08 |
| #32 My impression is that equivalent numbers of non-muslims all on LSD would exhibit, on a society basis, more order and logic than one sees in the Suni triangle. |
| Posted by: 3dc 2005-08-03 18:07 |
| #31 What would the Romans have done? I think a demonstration of that kind of force might be effective. These people (all Sunni) need to fear us and the Iraqi government, not love us or it. At 26% of the population they are the source of much of the difficultly. Apparently Fallujah was not a sufficient demonstration for the Sunni. A program of targeted assassination may very well already be under way and have been under way for a while already. There have been some reports of bodies found that may not have been the victims of sectarian, clan or, score settling. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet 0’ Doom 2005-08-03 17:03 |
| #30 The Phoenix program won the war and broke the back of the VC, a magnificent victory for covert operations and death squads, one that should be studied to this day, by morons wonder if this was the inspiration of Soro's new Phoenix Group. Might give some indication as to what his new strategy might be. |
| Posted by: 2b 2005-08-03 15:16 |
| #29 Damn. God bless them and their families. I hope the "slit throats" and "captured" marine on the other attack are propaganda (which it certainly is, given the constant bragging of the pitiful IEd-enabled Lions of islam). TW : very nice image. |
| Posted by: anonymous5089 2005-08-03 15:15 |
| #28 The first thought I had when I saw the headline was, Heaven is in trouble -- 20 Marines from the same unit on leave together! |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2005-08-03 15:07 |
| #27 "We're at 1,820 dead ... at this pace, we'll hit the 2,000 mark by mid-September. How much more do you think Joe and Jill Public will stand?" If the voices of defeat and discouragement in the media have their way, the answer is probably "not much more." Joe and Jill Public don't appear to be holding up very well under the strain. Yet that same Joe and Jill Public calmly and casually accept-- or worse, don't even care-- that the same number die on America's highways every fifteen days. I point that out not to belittle the loss of these Marines, but rather to note that while our men and women in combat are brave, courageous and devoted, much of the public seems to have lost heart-- and spine. |
| Posted by: Dave D. 2005-08-03 15:05 |
| #26 Okay, you're right and I'm inarticulate. The Phoenix program won the war and broke the back of the VC, a magnificent victory for covert operations and death squads, one that should be studied to this day, by morons. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2005-08-03 15:05 |
| #25 Incompetence, when there are IEDS never put 14 people ina veichle. |
| Posted by: Hupomoque Spoluter7949 2005-08-03 15:03 |
| #24 I think Bush has been letting the Generals run the war, which is as it should be. By all accounts he is a big picture man, who tries to hire the best and let them do their thing. Look at who he chose to be VP, as compared to that cute, blond lad his daddy chose! |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2005-08-03 15:03 |
| #23 I truly, honestly beleive that we "arc-light" one of those villages that are harboring the scum. No warning. Leave nothing but a smoking hole in the ground. |
| Posted by: anymouse 2005-08-03 14:55 |
| #22 *What* should we call this one: Operation Desert Tenting? Operation: ___________________________________ |
| Posted by: Crispis-asstuck 2005-08-03 14:38 |
| #21 Elvis: Yep. I'll go along with that. Sounds like the strategic hamlet program. We should we call this one: Operation Desert Tenting? Definitely cannot trust Syria and I don't understand what Bush is waiting for in that case. |
| Posted by: Crispis-asstuck 2005-08-03 14:36 |
| #20 My heart sank when this news came in. God bless all the families. |
| Posted by: Nockeyes Nilberforce 2005-08-03 14:33 |
| #19 Much more, You may be right about select town targets , but I suggest relocation as an alternative method to complete destruction of the towns and the people who live there. Classic and effective counter insurgency tactic is to relocate problem villages like this, and reassign community leadership duties under us control to weaken the hold of the insurgents over local people, and to win some hearts and minds with a bit of the old Uncle Sam pocketbook love. Tents are probably better than a lot of the shitholes these people live in anyway, and anything is better than being killed which I assume a lot of the locals are afraid of, as anyone would be in a war zone like this. I like the idea of vetting someone as a friendly and killing all who are not, it is very logical and would be much easier with a relocation effort. But I'm not that familiar with the geographical layout, but hey we did it in Fallujah, so we can do it here. The locals would be removed from the problem areas and then we level the place. The insurgents are likely not made up of a lot of locals but rather intruders who needed a convenient base near Syria with civilian cover. That plus foreign fighters streaming in from Syria, regardless the locals are probably being forced into cooperation most of the time, and for those who fight us willingly, well perhaps they will die just as willingly. It would then proceed like Fallujah where we followed a similar line of action. So let's compromise a bit between the strategies of destruction of an enemy stronghold and soft handedness with the locals. Good dialogue, the Rantburg is providing much of that since Fred's interdiction a few days ago. Thanks Fred and thank you asstuck for lively and relevant debate. And yes we should annihalate Syrias despot leadership, in due time my pretty, in due time! EP |
| Posted by: ElvisHasLeftTheBuilding 2005-08-03 13:43 |
| #18 Elvis: But I think its different here. The Sunnis make up about 26 percent of Iraq. Not too many Kurds or Shiites are going to lose sleep, shed tears, or join up in a rebellion against the Coalition if hell's fury is unleashed on selective Sunni towns and cities. Did the rest of Iraq turn on us after we pretty much leveled Fallujah last November? The Sunnis are waging a classic war of attrition; they're not stupid. The know about American election cycles, American MSM, and the fickleness of the voters once things go awry in Iraq. Check out the stats of US deaths lately: 52 killed in April, 80 in May, 78 killed in June, dropped down to 54 in July, but now a whopping 22 in the first three days of August. We're at 1,820 dead ... at this pace, we'll hit the 2,000 mark by mid-September. How much more do you think Joe and Jill Public will stand? |
| Posted by: Crispis-asstuck 2005-08-03 12:52 |
| #17 Here's the MARINE unit from Ohio that has lost 20 men in the past 48 hours or so. "The Marines were members of the 3rd Battalion, 25th Marines based in Brook Park, Ohio, a Cleveland suburb, according to Gunnery Sgt. Brad R. Lauer, public affairs chief with the unit." |
| Posted by: Crispis-asstuck 2005-08-03 12:45 |
| #16 The moose is wise, and his advice should be heeded. But I empathize with the want to maim, kill, and/or destroy all those who oppose us. Hell its my personal philosophy, but let's not shoot the horse because the cart lost a wheel in a pothole. Let's assume this is a guerilla war, no big assumption there ladies. And lets assume that the local Ansar al Sunna fucknuts aren't getting as much cooperation as they would like from certain villagers on the all important border. What to do, win them over by forcing the Americans to react with too much force against the local populace. Us against them, us against them. That is what these insurgents must convince the local people to believe in order to get total buy in to the insurgents way of thinking. This is the very core of the counter insurgent's dillema that Coalition forces face everyday. Kill everyone around you and be safe, for the moment, but turn the populace against you in the longrun. Don't kill everyone around you and bam, you could be dead, but the locals are with you or at least neutral. Proportionate force is required and it is never easy.Tough decisions to make, but necessary in a hearts and minds war. EP |
| Posted by: ElvisHasLeftTheBuilding 2005-08-03 12:36 |
| #15 As long as Syria remains a safe base of operation, this will continue. Someone needs to send an envoy to Assad for a DNA sample, yesterday. Yesterday, Thruper, how about last year? Baby I'doc & his 40 thieves gotta go! |
| Posted by: BigEd 2005-08-03 12:04 |
| #14 Just another thought: If we stay the same course, we lose. Period! Twenty years from now, just as is happening with "revisionist" historical accounts of the Vietnam War, often written by legitimately angry Vietnam vets, we will read tomes of how well our forces performed and how we "really" did beat the enemy. Of course the tomes will then go on to discuss how Iraq was lost by pointing the finger at media bias, liberal-left academe, political indecision, etc., etc., etc. In other words, only on rare occasions will a voice emerge that argues how the military did not implement the proper strategy. I think of someone like Harry G. Summers or Michael Lind, both of whom have argued that Vietnam could've been won militarily and politically. Our armed forces accomplished the former but were not allowed to do the other. Here in Iraq, we don;t have a liberal Commnader in Chief, so what the hell is the excuse for the pussy way in which we're conducting this war? |
| Posted by: Crispis-asstuck 2005-08-03 11:50 |
| #13 Mr. Articulate ... Bullshit it was TET. REALLY? TET wiped out 45,000 VC/NVA in early 1968. But their networks regained strength in the urban areas circa 1970-71. Phoenix Program took care of that problem. Wanna crush the terrorists in Iraq? Then combine maximum military force with a CIA assassination program. BTW: Assassinations in wartime and in combat areas are legal under the rules of war. |
| Posted by: Crispis-asstuck 2005-08-03 11:41 |
| #12 One of the problems with over-bombing is that we would likely hit a lot of Iraqis who are now providing good info to the coalition. A less depressing way of looking at these fatalities is that the focus of terrorism seems to be moving away from the Center of the Sunni triangle toward the outer shell. Some rather large cities even in the triangle have stayed calm once the terrorists were driven out. |
| Posted by: mhw 2005-08-03 11:16 |
| #11 it is extremely important that this loss be followed by a max force operation to isolate and cutoff the entire area for a street to street and house to house cleansing operation.no one should go in or out of the area without individual approval of u s forces.If in doubt,blow it up.Overwhelming troops and firepower should be applied until every living person in the Haditha area is either vetted or killed . This has to be the response if we are ever to end this war.the terrorists must know that ambushes of U S forces leads to a terrible response and residents must know that the response to the terrorism they permit is sure and certain . If it means that Haditha is to be turned into a wet spot in the desert,so be it.it is upon their heads,not ours.had we folloiwed this policy in V N ,that war would have been over quickly with a minimum of death and destruction.it is the measured and proportionate response which is less merciful.War is Hell,and Shermans path of destruction cut the Civil War short by months if not years .Think of how many lives,Japanese and American which were saved by Hiroshima. |
| Posted by: john e morrissey 2005-08-03 11:15 |
| #10 VC's back in 'Nam? It was the Phoenix Program -- 40,000 BullShit. It was TET Crisp. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2005-08-03 10:59 |
| #9 That would be 20 from that same Ohio-based unit. Damn! |
| Posted by: Crispis-asstuck 2005-08-03 10:25 |
| #8 But the instigators outside of the country, for them is reserved, at best, the noose, and at worse, as they hide in their stately villas,.. Last I heard, Assad and Khamenei are still alive and in charge of their countries. |
| Posted by: Bomb-a-rama 2005-08-03 10:23 |
| #7 Fox reporting 14 are from same reserve unit as the marines killed yesterday from outside of Cleveland, OH. God Bless their families. |
| Posted by: Capsu 78 2005-08-03 10:21 |
| #6 "I know the first inclination is always to want bloody vengeance. However, cooler heads will prevail. The locals will be punished in the slow, gradual carrot and stick grind to root out and destroy the local troublemakers and facilitators." Unfortunately, by the time we get around to this, President Hillary Rob'em Clinton will be withdrawing U.S. forces from Iraq. What finally broke the VC's back in 'Nam? It was the Phoenix Program -- 40,000 assassinations of safe-house providers, "student activists" who were really fronts for the VC, so-called community "leaders" and civic "activists", and so forth. We need a Phoenix Program in the Sunni Triangle as well as massive bombings as a means of destroying the terror base and network. But as I wrote earlier, it will not be done and therefore when President Bush says this war will be fought unlike other previous wars, I disagree. It is looking very much like the previous wars that we have lost or failed to generate a decisive victory. |
| Posted by: Crispis-asstuck 2005-08-03 10:14 |
| #5 I know the first inclination is always to want bloody vengeance. However, cooler heads will prevail. The locals will be punished in the slow, gradual carrot and stick grind to root out and destroy the local troublemakers and facilitators. But the instigators outside of the country, for them is reserved, at best, the noose, and at worse, as they hide in their stately villas, to meet an end like Colonel Kurtz. |
| Posted by: Anonymoose 2005-08-03 10:03 |
| #4 When? |
| Posted by: SR-71 2005-08-03 09:46 |
| #3 Maximum force, especially airpower and artillery should be dropped on these bastards heads. Hear!Hear! No Quarter. |
| Posted by: JerseyMike 2005-08-03 09:45 |
| #2 As long as Syria remains a safe base of operation, this will continue. Someone needs to send an envoy to Assad for a DNA sample, yesterday. |
| Posted by: Thruper Snesh2876 2005-08-03 09:44 |
| #1 "Pacifying Iraq's western Anbar province, where Haditha is located, is a top priority for US forces. Officials say stability and political progress cannot be secured unless anti-US fighters are rooted out of the region." Keep eating shit. While U.S. officials talk of "stability and political progress" the Sunni population in Haditha and other similar towns provide aid and comfort to the enemy. There are scores of safe-houses throughout these areas. Maximum force, especially airpower and artillery should be dropped on these bastards heads. I'm sure sometime today, some 30-year plus retired veteran "officer" or Intelligence-type will write of the need to remain calm, to avoid anger like mine, and so forth. Like I wrote, keep eating shit. |
| Posted by: Crispis-asstuck 2005-08-03 09:30 |
