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Europe
France targets radical Muslim recruiters
2005-07-25
France has declared a new policy of tracking down and prosecuting Muslim radicals in the wake of terrorist bombings in London. Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said the decision was made based on the opinions of the country's anti-terrorist police and judges, who have said the country faces a serious threat from "jihadists," The Times of London reported. "We have decided to put into effect a wide-scale operation for the early screening of the elements of radicalization," Sarkozy said. "When you see the age of the young suicide bombers of London, you see the responsibility of the radical preachers on weak minds and I have no intention of tolerating it." France is home to some 4 million Muslims, many from Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia, and state officials maintain hundreds have been trained abroad in guerrilla tactics to fight in Afghanistan, Chechnya and Iraq.
What's the over-under before a major booming in France?
Posted by:Steve

#24  The muzzies are terrible, bad, and nasty people, but they do have the common sense to not bomb France. The first thing France would do is surrender, then what would the muzzies do with all those nasty french liberals.
Posted by: 49 pan   2005-07-25 21:18  

#23  Let him enjoy it now, Shipman, while the kufr are still allowed in. Besides, this may well be the experience that clears his mind and brings him back to the side of Good. ;-) Just make him read Revel's Anti-Americanism, so that he recognizes what is legitimate discussion and what is simplisme bigotry.
Posted by: trailing wife   2005-07-25 19:24  

#22  We all agree, France is headed south and is up to no good. Now, why can't I keep hell raiser #2 outa there? Obviously his education is not taking. Sterm measures may be called for. Maybe Cuba.
Posted by: Shipman   2005-07-25 16:22  

#21  Why should France have to worry? They didn't support the Iraq war. They are peace loving pacifists and are really nice to these terrorists. The terrorists surely won't attack France...
Posted by: intrinsicpilot   2005-07-25 15:09  

#20  LH: Which makes me think its NOT the ME policy, but something else France is doing.

According to a CNN program that aired last week, France has one of the toughest anti-terror laws in Europe. They have one person who acts as both judge and prosecutor (if I understood correctly). So if a search warrant is needed by the police, little time is wasted. And you can imagine what sort of policing power this one person holds. The implication being that terrorist cells have a hard time going about their business in France.
Posted by: Rafael   2005-07-25 14:50  

#19  Damn, I missed Francis comments! Sorry for the misunderstanding (shame).
Posted by: anonymous5089   2005-07-25 13:15  

#18  Merci Fracis
My first name is actually anglo-saxon, Kevin, but thanks anyway Mrs. Taliaferro :-).

You're very right about the criminalization of french muslim, about 75% of crimes are comitted by them (as acknowledged by a MSM mag, "Le Point" IIRC, or was it "L'Express"?), and there is a real climate of insecurity in certain parts of France, not to mention the intifida-like low level "insurrection" (torching cars, schools, stoning of firefighters,...), the religious attacks (vandalized churchs), the antisemitism (only 8% of recorded antisemite acts come from the far right, official figure), and the ubiquitous gangrapes (as seen in Danemark, Norway, Australia,...).

Note that french police DO pack heat, both policemen and gendarmes (paramilitary police) are armed, and some of them have no qualms at all about busting an head or two (the BAC antigang units, or the CRS anti-riot squads, who are actually quite good at what they do)... simply, they are overhelmed, mostly powerless and not backed by justice.

A muslim uprising is quite seriously envisaged by the authorities, french army even has a contingency plan for that, supposedly dubbed "Plan Wacco" (as in the davidians, btw), which was leaked to Algeria a few years ago. See http://www.france-echos.com/actualite.php?cle=1227 (link in french)

Note that immigration in France is increasing steadily; official immigration went from 125 000 in 1995 to 217 000 (children are not counted in that total), only 9% of them european, plus 90 000 asylum seekers (only 10% admitted, the remaining staying in place anyway), at the very least 100 000 illegals. Statisttically the number of foreigners in France doesn't increase, because there are massive naturalization each year.

Again, I don't want to charge Sarkozy, who is at least atlantist and pro-free market (more than most french pols, anyway), but when he talks about "quotas", he actually sez there is the coming need for economic immigration, and therefore plan on increasing immigration, not slowing or stopping it.
Posted by: anonymous5089   2005-07-25 13:13  

#17  Interesting thread.

I wasn't aware that Sarkozy was so accomidating. How sad. And Jennifer, as far as being in Paris in 90/92, I went back around that time to bury my grandmother.

I too was shocked at the decay and apparent decline in the banlieu around the city. I went back to visit the apartment complex in Charenton where they lived for 50+ years, (and I spent summers and a few full years in the late 60's).

The pristine apartments, with their grass courtyards filled with little kids running around were gone, replaced with concrete, grafitti everywhere, and gangs of north african kids haning around. Needless to say I didn't stop.

At least I take solance in the fact I got to enjoy France as a boy, even though I won't take my son there...
Posted by: Francis   2005-07-25 12:55  

#16  France targets radical Muslim recruiters

WATER BALLOONS FOR EVERYONE!
Posted by: BigEd   2005-07-25 12:44  

#15  Merci, Francis.
I stand corrected about the population of France.
M'excuse.
10% Muslims in France, versus 1.7+% of the pop. in Britain is very ominous and they are much more criminalized in France than in the UK.
In addition to the bombings, Islamist hordes have ridden into Paris on the Métro and basically rioted, terrorizing white French people in the center of town and with impunity, as the police are basically powerless.
I lived in Paris in the summer of 1990 and again in the fall of 1992, so I couldn't forget my horror when I read about one of these riots at La Défense, right at the center of Paris, a few years later.
For more info, check out the blogs Merde in France and The Dissident Frogman.
Posted by: Jennie Taliaferro   2005-07-25 12:38  

#14  IIRC France has about 61 millions habitants (leaning on 62+), and muslim pop. is evaluated from 3,7 millions (Michèle Tribalat's survey, she is a non-PC demograph but this seem waayy to low) to about 10 millions (the most probable figure, it is estimated there are now 12-15 millions persons of non-european descent, about 80% muslim), official figure being set at 6 millions. It is forbidden by law to use religious or ethnic figure for demographic surveys, which explains this uncertainty.

French birthrate is 1,9, but "ethnic french" are probably at 1,4-1,5, while immigrants birthrate has been evaluated between 3,2 to 4, depending on origin (birthrate is actually higher than in home country, because of social subsidies, next generations are probably lower, but remain higher than below-remplacement "native" birthrate, again), no hard data because of PC.

According to Maxime Tandonnet, one immigration specialist, there are about 400 000 to 500 000 migrants in France each year, most of them africans, 80% muslims (while 50 000 well educated french leave the country, mainly to the USA or England), only 5% of them working immigration as Sarkozy himself IIRC acknowledged, the rest of them being family reunion.

About one third of births are said to be from muslim families (this may be a little alarmist); Sarkozy, in his infinite wisdom during his first stint as interior minister, forbid the publishing of wedding and birth annoucement by mayors... as the ones published in certain regions of France showed a disproportionnate numbers of muslim names.

According to Jean Paul Gourévitch, a (left leaning but very un-PC) french specialist of Africa who studied african immigration in France, at the current (90's-2000's) rate, muslim population doubles every 15 or 20 years, and should account for about 2/3 of total french population in 2060.

Time is working for them, and they perfectly know it; assimilation never was an option, and integration has not worked very well, and there is more and more revendications.

Sarkozy seems quite ok with a partage of power (he suggests reforming the 1905 law of separation of State and Church, funding the building of mosques, the formation of imams, with tax money, which would give islam a state-funded status no other religions would have), he's a vocal proponent of muslim affirmative action, he dialogs with the muslim brotherhood, etc, etc... you get the picture.
Posted by: anonymous5089   2005-07-25 12:38  

#13  Francis - here's a Twain quote to throw around that's in line with your sage conclusion:

"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years."
Posted by: .com   2005-07-25 12:35  

#12  Since Jennifer is fact checking (which is a good thing!) I should add that France as a population of 60million, not 30 as she said in one of her early posts. According to the cia world factbook. This is a big difference.

As far as knowing how many muslims, there are no real counts for that, but under religion, we get an estimate of 5-10%, which makes it very possible there are ~6million muslims...

As far as the UK, according to the factbook, the population of the UK is 60million also. Muslims make up an estimated 2.7%, say 3 million tops...

So I would agree w/Jennifer that France has a significant problem with Islamists. It may be dormant right now, but rest assured, just like Mt. St. Helens in my own backyard, france will see an eruption soon enough.

Incidently, my grandmother (born and lived in Paris), told me in the early 80's that France was doomed due to it's liberal immigration policy. I of course being in my early 20's, oh so worldly and educated in your typical left leaning university simply thought there were the delusions of a dottering old women in the twilight of her life...

Kick me in the ass, she was right about that, and a whole lot of other things. So listen to your parents AND your grandparents. :=)
Posted by: Francis   2005-07-25 12:29  

#11  Re: #6 Perhaps you should Google as well.
Population of France is 60m.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html
Posted by: Glinter Thuck8589   2005-07-25 12:28  

#10  France has not been the focus of islamists because of the significant support it gives to muslim issues -- anti-war in iraq, anti-american, anti-israel, antisemitism. Appeasement in it's finest form. And, as appeasement is destined to do, it will wear off because it level-sets expectations: what was a privilege or an honor once becomes a right later. No billboards with women? Fine. Liquor stores open in muslim communities? Close them. It's a slippery slope. Sure, it's fine now, but if France does anything to upset them, watch out. Recall the hijab incident.

And the fact of the matter is that France can't continue down this path without giving up much of its own culture. And they won't. It's simply a matter of time. Enough French people will, at some point, say "Enough!"

To avert this, Muslims have the choice to:
1. assimilate into the broader culture (which they are loathe to do). Many cultures have done this in the west. For muslims, though, this would provide women with rights, and would allow men to look at porn. Won't happen.

2. remain in enclaves, separate and apart from the broader culture, as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on others (again, which they are loathe to do). Doing this would limit their economic potential and would forever banish them to the ghettos. The sense of entitlement and superiority in the muslim culture wouldn't allow this, either.

3. More and more, enter into prolonged and increasingly violent clashes with the broader culture, trying to islamicize it.

My guess is they'll choose #3. They already have in England, Holland, a bit in Germany and France and are starting in Scandinavia.

As I think about it, one way to change this is to woo the next generation of muslims over to the dark side. Introduce them to the benefits of the west -- luxuries, opportunities, etc. And all the while, show them that their parents are out of touch. Slowly. Gradually. Not directly -- let them come to that conclusion. Once that's in place, let them conclude that radical islam is not in their best interest.

Unless France rescues the next generation of muslims, they are destined to suffer a more and more radicalized and active muslim community.
Posted by: PlanetDan   2005-07-25 12:15  

#9  The hijab ban was window dressing.
It's another instance of "too little, too late."
It would be have effective 20 years ago in "secular" France, but now it's not and it was really enacted to protect Jews from being attacked as it also bans Jewish and Christian jewelry and headwear like Stars of David and yamulkes.
Don't know what you know about France (not much), but they've had an unprecedented number of attacks on Jews and Jewish property since 9/11.
And there's no reason to believe that the French authorities have any "spies" or even tipsters in the Muslim community--That would be regarded by them as the ultimate betrayal, punishable by death.
One of the things the French have really had trouble with are gang rapes in the Muslim ghettoes.
It goes with that wonderful treatment of women that Islamist men are so famous for.
Posted by: Jennie Taliaferro   2005-07-25 11:57  

#8  "If they're not attacking France, it's because they've pretty much taken it over by stealth already."

So the Islamists SUPPORT the banning of the hijab in public schools, and the deportation of imams? Odd.

"But to opine that "France has nothing to worry about Islamist terrorists" is just silly"

Yes it would be. Which is why i didnt opine that. Rather I discussed some measures they MAY be taking because they ARE worried.
Posted by: liberalhawk   2005-07-25 11:49  

#7  "Three in the head, you know they're dead."
-- Morgan Freeman, "Nurse Betty"
Posted by: mojo   2005-07-25 11:47  

#6  France is almost as much a ticking time bomb, with its hordes of Muslims, than the UK.
There are 6 million Muslims in France (out of a population of 30 million), much more than Britain's 1-3 million out of 60.
France's Muslims have not assimilated and live in marginalized ghettos (les banlieus) where the police are afraid to go.
And unlike any other Western power, France did make Islamist enemies with their brutal "civil" war in Algeria in the 1960's.
In addition, numerous bad guys have chosen to go into exile in France from the Ayatollah to the PLO where they rally the faithful around them.
Sarko's no idiot and knows France has reason to be afraid that Paris will witness another 7/7 or worse.
But the barbarians got in the gate a long time ago.
French police aren't armed and even if they were, their laws are too lenient and there's no death penalty, so the terrorists aren't scared of much there.
If they're not attacking France, it's because they've pretty much taken it over by stealth already.

But to opine that "France has nothing to worry about Islamist terrorists" is just silly.
Posted by: Jennie Taliaferro   2005-07-25 11:40  

#5  I often provide strictly facts, however in this instance I did not. Thanks for providing a data point, thats always helpful.

Im not sure it contradicts the rest of what I posted though. The last incident the French had on their soil was 10 years ago, before AQ's big offensive (9/11 and beyond) began. In fact Im not sure if GIA was associated with AQ at that point. However im not trying to argue statistically from the handful of attacks AQ has launched. There simply arent enough anywhere in the West to make a statistical argument. And there could be an attack in Paris tomorrow, that would totally change the numbers upto this point. I was merely speculating on what France is probably doing.
Posted by: liberalhawk   2005-07-25 11:31  

#4  Shows you what you know, LH.
In 1995, there were no less than 3 terrorist bombings in Paris, 2 of which were on the subway system:
Link to story
Do you ever research or Google anything before you start shooting off your mouth and posting away?
Posted by: Jennie Taliaferro   2005-07-25 11:03  

#3  France has not given asylm to nearly as many Jihad preaching clerics as has Britain. Also, the French have not treated the Jihad preachers as rock stars - (e.g., inviting them to prestige events, hosting hate-America/hate-Israel rallies). The London mayor has done all this.
Posted by: mhw   2005-07-25 11:01  

#2  france hasnt had an attack yet, and the naive attribute this to Frances policies in the ME. Of course France HAS been attacked abroad, french reps in Karachi, and a tanker near Yemen. what has NOT happened is an attack IN France. Which makes me think its NOT the ME policy, but something else France is doing. My suspicion is that the French have the muslim community much more heavily infiltrated with spies and informers than UK does. I mean they have connections deep in North African society since colonial days, and strengthened by their close relationship since 1990 with the current algerian govt. It would stand to reason that some of the migrants to France are folks who were already in the pay of French intell when they were in North Africa. And that France, which has been very nervous about the muslim extremists ever since the Algerian civil war broke out, have been trying to expand that network ever since.
Posted by: liberalhawk   2005-07-25 10:50  

#1  Sarkozy's got a little bit of an understanding of what's important and it isn't Danone either.
Posted by: MunkarKat   2005-07-25 10:46  

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