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| Europe |
| F-16 Shoots Down Greece's $6B Eurofighter Typhoon Order |
| 2005-07-20 |
| After scrapping a EUR 4.9 billion deal with EADS for 60 Eurofighter Typhoon fighters, Greece's center-right government announced that it has decided to buy 30 Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 52+ jets from the U.S. instead, with an option for 10 more. The order would cost approximately EUR 1.1 billion (USD $1.32 billion) based on current prices, and is designed to address the nation's air defense needs over the next 15 years. The jets would join 50 F-16 Block 52 aircraft already in service with the Hellenic Air Force under a 2000 contract. The new contract's exact figures will depend on negotiations, and will include industrial offset benefits and support for the rest of the F-16s Block 52s and earlier models belonging to the Hellenic Air Force. The deal is another blow to the Eurofighter's export campaign. The Typhoon was recently bounced from Singapore's future fighter competition in favour of Dassault's Rafale or Boeing's F-15E Strike Eagle. Greece's traditional rival Turkey had also expressed some interest in the Eurofighter earlier this year, before signing a $1.1 billion contract in May to upgrade its own F-16 fleet to a Block 50+ equivalent instead. Nevertheless, the Greek market is not completely closed to EADS. "Our next order for fourth-generation jets will be reviewed by another military council meeting. It does not exclude any company from Europe or the U.S.," said defense ministry spokesman Stefanos Gikas. While no company is excluded, the 3rd generation F-16 fighter aircraft is unlikely to be eligible under those criteria for the next 30+10 plane order in 2009. Even so, Eurofighter manufacturer EADS could still end up competing with cheaper 4th Generation options like the JAS 39 Gripen, the Russian Sukhoi SU-30 family, an offer for Greece to match its rival Turkey as a participating nation in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, or even an F-15E Strike Eagle variant or F/A-18E/F Super Hornet order if those upgraded American jets are declared eligible. The global fighter market to 2015 is expected to be a lively place. |
| Posted by:Steve |
| #18 OldSpook, I thought the AF was going to buy some F-18's modified to act as jammer aircraft (as was the Navy). |
| Posted by: Phil Fraering 2005-07-20 22:42 |
| #17 Old Spook,I beg to differ regarding the F-18E(so-called)Super Hornet. It is inferior in performance in every category to the F-18A/C it is supposed to replace. Yes it has better range-w/2 450 gallon drop tanks in use compared to 2 300 gallon tanks used on F-18A/Cs. W/300 extra gallons of fuel it should have better range! The stealth advantage is minimal for an aircraft costing 2-3 times as much as an F-16. The only edge the F-18E has is the latest electronics,which could be retrofitted to F-16/F-18A/C a/c.More importantly,the F-18e electronics suite was designed before the GPS revolution in smart bombs,rendering its systems irrelevant. The F-18 family has very short "legs" for a US a/c and in Afghanistan the F-14 had to be used to bomb distant targets. In the initial phases of the Iraq War,on a carrier that had both F-18Es as well as Cs,the TF commander had the Es used as airiel refuelers,while the Cs conducted the strike missions! The E version had such a reputation as a dog and so many vet navy pilots were doing all they could to keep from getting assigned to E squadrons,that the Navy had to take the drastic step of offering accelerated promotions to experienced pilots to get them into E squadrons. New pilots had no choice-they were assigned to the Es automatically.(The US Navy officer assisgned to oversee the E program told a bunch of retired naval aviator admirals that other than being slower,less manueverable,slower to accelerate and not being able to roll as fast as As and Cs that it was a better airplane. Needless to say,he has since been promoted.) The USN has unofficially conceeded the E is a dog by scrapping plans for all E Carrier Air Wings. Now thet plan on 2 E and 2 C squadrons. IMHO,the it would be much smarter if the USN cancelled the F-18E program and started making updated F-14s until they decide what the future will hold for aviation. New avionics,updated Phoenix,new engines as in F-15/16 and the Phoenix weapons pallets made permanent universal weapons stations and the fleet might have a chance at stopping a mass Chinese attack on a CV group.(As to the F-16/F-18 debate,count the number of F-16 users vs F-18 users. It is also noteworthy Japan,Taiwan and China all used the F-16 as the pattern for their new fighters-Japan an F-16 w/bigger wings,the other two,mini F-16s. The F-35 is a strike a/c. It is optimised to attack ground targets. Its' wing is not designed to engage in aerial combat. It is inferior to F-15/16/18 a/c in dogfighting abilities. The F-25 is the 21century F-105. In the 50's when F-105 was designed,speed was that era's stealth and a tactical nuke was that era's smart bomb. The plane was designed to go like a bat out of hell and drop its' nuke and then run,it wasn't going to have to get dirty and dogfight because that was a thing of the past. Just as today the F-35 is going to sneak in in a cloud of stealth,drop its PGMs and if anybody should dare to interfere will dispatch them w/its Amraams. Nice theory,until radar jamming comes into play and the bad guys send up a bunch of planes,not one or two and then the pilots better be good,because Mig 29s,Su 35s,Rafales,Eurofighters as well as any US built a/s are all better air-to-air fighters. In the sad event I was runnimg Pentagon,the F-35,F-19E and Ospreys would all be cancelled. The AF would get more F-22s,the Nat Guard would get F-16s w/larger wings to restore manueverability lost w/weight gains,updated F-14s would be built,the Navy and AF would have to jointly build a 2seat F-117 replacement that could carry bunker buster bombs(and have the ability of back seater to fly/direct tag along UAVs)and an A-10-type UAV w/long loiter and large payload would be on the way for USMC and Army and existing A-10s would get a service life extension and conversion into OA-10s,and an order of reinforced C-17s that can-and will-actually carry M1s. |
| Posted by: Stephen 2005-07-20 22:41 |
| #16 I love the Electric Jet (F-16), my dad was a GD Veep (and it's weird to see it referred to as a Lockheed Martin jet) and in the traveling roadshow that sold the co-development contract to the NATO members, but that was loooong ago. OS is dead right: The F-18 Super has been upgraded constantly and is surely the best platform out there, AFAIK. Can the F-18 accelerate in a pure vertical climb, now? I though that was solely an F-22 claim to fame. |
| Posted by: .com 2005-07-20 22:03 |
| #15 Thankew, thankew, thankew - #9, 12, 13. Try the veal. I'll be here all week. ;-p |
| Posted by: Barbara Skolaut 2005-07-20 21:50 |
| #14 F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Best multirole US Aircraft in existence these days. F-22 might top it for air superiority, but the higher thrust engines (fantastic >1 TW ratio now, unlike the old A/B models), upgraded electronics, and added airframe improvements (perfomance enhancements and radar reduced visibillity) make the F/A-18 better than the F-16, F-15E, and the F-22 (excepting the Air-to-Air role for the F22). The updates also give the new F18 longer legs. The USAF ought to be picking up F/A-18's if it were not for their parochial attitude against naval fighters. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2005-07-20 21:38 |
| #13 Nice one Ms Skolaut. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2005-07-20 16:30 |
| #12 Barb S 9.98 For off the cuff shooting. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2005-07-20 15:22 |
| #11 Yah, I like the Gripen too. I wish I could afford one. :-) |
| Posted by: Phil Fraering 2005-07-20 14:24 |
| #10 JAS 39 Gripen is a great platform. Worth considering in any airforce. The Eurofighter is not such a great plane when you take everything into consideration. The Greeks are being frugal with their money. That has to hurt EADS. Looks like the lifetime of the Eurofighter will be limited due to it's falure to garner much market share. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet 0’ Doom 2005-07-20 14:20 |
| #9 ouch Barb! Wish I'd said that... :-) |
| Posted by: Frank G 2005-07-20 14:10 |
| #8 What happened, Pappy? Did he accidently bite down? ;-p |
| Posted by: Barbara Skolaut 2005-07-20 13:31 |
| #7 Not right now. Medical leave for a foot injury. |
| Posted by: Pappy 2005-07-20 13:22 |
| #6 Mrs. D, DB - he did a drive-by here sometime in the past couple of days. Surprised the hell out of me - I thought they had him incommunicado. |
| Posted by: Barbara Skolaut 2005-07-20 13:21 |
| #5 Mrs D - I think he's still getting his ass chewed by some sergeant. ;) |
| Posted by: Desert Blondie 2005-07-20 12:32 |
| #4 I wonder if AK was on the evaluation committee. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2005-07-20 12:18 |
| #3 Holey Moley.... didn't see that coming at all. Something gone real bad with the EuroFighter? |
| Posted by: Shipman 2005-07-20 12:17 |
| #2 Jeez, when did Turkey get in on the F-35 program? It's gonna absolutely dominate the airspace in that part of the world. Looks like Greece has already decided on their next gen fighter. Now to get an invite to buy it. |
| Posted by: ed 2005-07-20 12:15 |
| #1 HAHAHAHAHA!!! I think a new arms race is coming about.... |
| Posted by: mmurray821 2005-07-20 11:53 |