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| -Short Attention Span Theater- |
| Whee religion in any form sucks (protect me from people's insecurities) |
| 2004-12-18 |
| Posted by:MacNails |
| #72 Ari, perhaps you are unaware of the legal doctrine of "Fighting Words". Come visit me and go after my religion, especially in a loud bellicose and profane way. After you get back from the hospital, you can *TRY* to file charges. Bwahaha! |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2004-12-18 10:18:58 PM |
| #71 Ari, perhaps you are unaware of the legal doctrine of "Fighting Words". Come visit me and go after my religion, especially in a loud bellicose and profane way. After you get back from the hospital, you can *TRY* to file charges. Bwahaha! |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2004-12-18 10:18:58 PM |
| #70 Ching! Ching!, except you Aris. |
| Posted by: Poison Reverse 2004-12-18 11:56:06 PM |
| #69 drinking? Moi? Merry Christmas. To all |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 11:45:45 PM |
| #68 mmm, Glenmorangie. In the next life-- or if Bloggerama takes off and IPO's-- I'll buy an Isle o Skye distiller for me own benefit hand shake and clap on the back When a man's tired o' Rantburg, he's tired o' life |
| Posted by: lex 2004-12-18 11:44:16 PM |
| #67 I'll ignore Frank if he'll ignore me. Anything more than that is probably too much to expect. And now I need to sleep since it's after 6 AM. G'dnight y'all. And yeah, Merry Christmas. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 11:44:14 PM |
| #66 There is no problem some good glasses of Scotch can't solve... if you are drinking, that is. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-12-18 11:43:48 PM |
| #65 No Talisker here but I raise my third bottle o Bass to Frank G Merry Xmas Christmas Whatever |
| Posted by: lex 2004-12-18 11:42:07 PM |
| #64 lex, wise man... I throw in a round of vintage Glenmorangie! Deal and shake hands, y'all? |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-12-18 11:40:46 PM |
| #63 non-silent night non-holy night Rantburg's cool, Rantburg's bright Round on yer neighborz No need to be coy Insults wreak havoc If words thee annoy Sleep in heavenly spite, Slee-eep in heaavenly spite |
| Posted by: lex 2004-12-18 11:40:33 PM |
| #62 Frank... calling him "ya little EU Nazi" doesn't make it any better. And I mostly agree with Steve. If you walk into a truck stop yelling "all truckers are assholes" you may still exercise your "right of free speech" but without teeth after the incident. But the line between "legit" free speech and "fighting words" is never a clear one. Just remember what happened to the Dutch filmmaker. I don't think anyone said here "he had it coming". |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-12-18 11:39:20 PM |
| #61 and for once, I actually mean it |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 11:37:12 PM |
| #60 Yep. My bad, and I apologize |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 11:36:42 PM |
| #59 Last post of mine was a reply to #49. Frank> I don't throw the Nazi tag around willy-nilly, and I don't believe I used it (as I noted) on Aris. Just check this thread's post #9, you amnesiac. You called me a "little EU Nazi", right there. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 11:35:45 PM |
| #58 Frank, there's more than one N-word. The Greeks suffered mightily at the hands of the N's. Maybe it's too early for new year's resolutions but a little humility is never a bad thing. /soapbox I still recommend Talisker. Or Lagavulin in a pinch. |
| Posted by: lex 2004-12-18 11:34:35 PM |
| #57 not worth the reply. Bring it on, punk |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 11:34:15 PM |
| #56 Aris wrote about fighting words: I've heard of it. I simply completely disagree with it. A serious reply: "fighting words" are well recognized by our constitutional law as not being protected by our First Amendment. Just as you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, and can't libel a person, you can't use words that are designed to provoke a fight, there and then. The US Supreme Court has a set of tests that it has instructed our courts to use in the application of this principle. I won't speak as to how things are (or should be) in the EU, but here in the US most of us are pretty comfortable with this: we all recognize that the First Amendment is not absolute, but is designed to protect ordinary and political speech, not fighting words. It works well for us. YMMV. If you want a scholarly review, go here. |
| Posted by: Steve White 2004-12-18 11:33:51 PM |
| #55 Only with an apology and a promise neither to compare nor even imply a comparison between me and the Nazis ever again. Those are "fighting words" for me, and even if I believe it should be illegal to respond with physical violence, that does NOT mean I have to bend over and take your abuse smiling, NOR does it mean I have to be your friend. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 11:32:34 PM |
| #54 I'll second that. "Tolerance" is pretty much meaningless. The only intolerance that has or should have meaning in the eyes of the law is that what violates my person. Also known as my flesh. "Feelings" don't count. |
| Posted by: lex 2004-12-18 11:32:25 PM |
| #53 TGA - let me make this clear, since I respect you and your personal history - I don't throw the Nazi tag around willy-nilly, and I don't believe I used it (as I noted) on Aris. |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 11:31:07 PM |
| #52 TGA, "The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, liberty, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and and equality between women and men prevail." What's wrong here, Poison Reverse?" The problem is with the words, non-discrimination & tolerance. These two words in the EU Const. are not as innocent as you think they are. These two words will be used to put people like Aris, who want the freedom to make fun of other religions, in jail. Mark my words, the day is coming, when the words "non-discrimination & tolerance" in the EU Constitution, will be used to put plenty to people in prison. Including parents who want to discipline their children for e.g. watching porn. |
| Posted by: Poison Reverse 2004-12-18 11:29:28 PM |
| #51 Frank, I recommend Talisker 10 year single malt. Exchange rate's brutal but it's worth it. Merry Christmas |
| Posted by: lex 2004-12-18 11:29:04 PM |
| #50 I didn't follow the other thread yet. But you two should agree on not liking each other and simply ignore each other. Nazi insults are completely unnecessary. It also spares me the pain to read all those winding complicated sentences to find out what Aris said to provoke your insult. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-12-18 11:28:25 PM |
| #49 OK - it's Christmas time...I'm agreeable, if you are, Aris? |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 11:26:44 PM |
| #48 Can't we all just git along? |
| Posted by: Rodney King of Peace 2004-12-18 11:21:39 PM |
| #47 "When I call you an enemy, Frank, that's exactly the kind of moral depravity in you I'm referring to. If you'd met me and slashed me with a knife I don't think I could be much more angry with you than I am right now. "Statist"? I'm afraid that I'm probably much more liberal than you. And by liberal I mean the actual meaning of the word. But keep on calling me a Nazi when you've been defeated in any argument of wits or logic or factual information. *That* will shut down discussion in a hurry, you coward and moral midget." Change your mind, TGA? |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 11:16:07 PM |
| #46 I stand by my characterization - see the thread before you decide: #24 actually Aris, I would expect a statist EUnik like you to appreciate the rigid social order brought by the Nazis. No dissent, no exceptions....sounds positively EUnish Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 2:07:02 PM Comment Top Rantburg |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 11:13:10 PM |
| #45 Aris, I usually simply ignore being called a Nazi because the insult always falls back to the insulter. But I absolutely agree that this is completely uncalled for. The grown up man always apologizes when he makes a mistake. Sorry Frank, the adult is in now. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-12-18 11:11:01 PM |
| #44 Aris - dinner's not yet done, so I have a chance to fisk your whine for support from TGA (BTW - what are you doing up at oughtAM in Greece?) I called you a statist EU-nik, who who I'd have imagined would've liked the "social order" the Nazis promised. I stand by that. As for your fighting words, "torture and death" was uttered by you. I'm tiring of reading your pitiful mewlings - should you need my address, you can get it, asshole. I suspect, when Greece comes calling for your ass for compulsory military service, you'll either bail like the "morally superior" coward you are, or become the REMF that gets killed by his own troops. Adieu! |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 11:09:36 PM |
| #43 lex> Actually I was referring to Mn a much more recent novel by Mimis Androulakis, but Kazantzakis will do as well. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 11:07:23 PM |
| #42 Poison Reverse> Searched throughout the Constitution and the only place either "tolerance" or "intolerance" is mentioned, is the passage which TGA quoted. So, yeah, please do let us know what is so dangerously wrong with the passage. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 11:05:04 PM |
| #41 Aris is correct to be annoyed at being called a Nazi. I myself would take those as fighting words. OTOH Aris makes my point well in his defense of that idiotic Kazantzis novel. As I say, it's an untalented hack's bid for cheap publicity and it deserves public ridicule and scorn, if not lawsuits |
| Posted by: lex 2004-12-18 11:04:27 PM |
| #40 TGA> Just one question -- how do you feel about Frank's repeatedly and continuously calling me a Nazi in several threads? I'm asking you this as probably the only one old enough here to have actually suffered from the Nazis. Am I right to have been thoroughly pissed off at Frank in the other large thread today? Check it out, please. Also would these be "fighting words" he uttered? And if so, btw, give me your legal advice on how far I can extend my retribution. Is it just crippling or can I proceed to killing him as a result of the "fighting words" he uttered? How far does the concept extend? Eagerly waiting your advice. Btw, no need to comparisons with Greece. We have "religious blasphemy" laws enshrined in our constitution, after all. Nice book-burnings every couple years, nice dragging authors to court over insulting poor schizophrenic-sexually involved with Mary-Magdalene Jesus, calls to even ban parodies against the Archbishop. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 10:59:19 PM |
| #39 "The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, liberty, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and and equality between women and men prevail." What's wrong here, Poison Reverse? |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-12-18 10:59:02 PM |
| #38 It's one thing to attack religious concepts and doctrines. It's another to lampoon and burlesque figures of religious veneration, whether they be saints or deities or human authorities. In the former case, the attacker is showing a kind of respect for the seriousness of the other side's faith, and any strong faith will welcome vigorous debate with these attackers. In the latter case, the attacker is really engaging in a form of intellectual pornography, the substitution of potty talk and raspberries for any kind of serious intellectual engagement. Most contemporary "art" exhibits like the Serrano "piss Christ" or the madonna with elephant shit smeared all over her definitely fall into the intello-porn category. The objects of this kind of lumpen stupidity have every right to be offended and demand that it stop masquerading as principled debate. It's nothing more than the untalented hack's bid for cheap publicity. |
| Posted by: lex 2004-12-18 10:54:57 PM |
| #37 me too - Aris, another day, another time! Zorro |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 10:52:56 PM |
| #36 Sigh. As always, this thread has become an utter waste of BW as Aris can never be mistaken, much less wrong. Toodles, all. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-12-18 10:50:34 PM |
| #35 Nope, it's weekend, carry on :-) |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-12-18 10:50:09 PM |
| #34 Without reverting to cursing you out, all I have to say is that, you better pay more attention to the EU Constitution. Pay close attention to the word "intolerence" in the document. It's your ass, not mine, I am a proud U.S. Citizen. |
| Posted by: Poison Reverse 2004-12-18 10:49:47 PM |
| #33 LOL, TGA - the adult shows up to kill our fun.... |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 10:49:32 PM |
| #32 Furthermore, the EU "constitution" has this relationship exactly backwards. Not only will it not work, the failure mode is likely to be spectacular. |
| Posted by: Darth VAda 2004-12-18 10:47:45 PM |
| #31 Just try to order a "Turkish" coffee in a Greek worker's bar in Piraeus... So much for free speech... |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-12-18 10:47:42 PM |
| #30 What the hell are you talking about, Frank? |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 10:47:24 PM |
| #29 Sure, Aris. I'll try and explain. The U.S. Constitution exists to tell our goverment what we will permit it to do. The Bill of Rights was insisted on to further tell the goverment what they were not permitted to do. That has nothing to do with whether or not someone decides to take a poke at you (as long as he's not a cop acting in his official capacity, that is). |
| Posted by: Darth VAda 2004-12-18 10:47:00 PM |
| #28 LOL - Aris - Merry Christmas and I hope Santa brings you the EU pony you want. I'm sorry about all the unresolved issues between you and Dad. Wished he'd loved you, too. |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 10:46:42 PM |
| #27 .com> Even with your argument, if I insult a religion that should mean that the *deity* should have the right to clobber me. Not people "insulted" on its behalf. So any thunderbolts coming my way? Didn't think so. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 10:45:54 PM |
| #26 Poison Reverse> So Aris is from Greece, heh! I believe Greece is part of the EU, which means, the freedoms that you enjoy now (due to the precious American blood) are going away. Actually throughout my life the freedoms I'm enjoying have been increasing, *because* of the EU, and despite often vehement opposition by anti-EU forces in Greece (namely the far-left and the far-right, Communists, Neonazis and religious fundies). So check your facts, clueless boy. Your stereotypical and utterly ignorant views of the EU are the product of tabloids. I am NOT kidding when I say this, I believe you when you say you are kidding. I also believe you are a clueless idiot who's read too many tabloid propaganda. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 10:43:12 PM |
| #25 No, it's not black/white on/off - it's common sense. If you deliberately insult someone without cause, you have stepped over the real line of civility. Civilizations laws are fine ideas, but they do not determine behavior, as you seem to think. Debate is one thing, that is entirely another. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-12-18 10:41:39 PM |
| #24 Aris, Is that Shakespeare? |
| Posted by: Poison Reverse 2004-12-18 10:40:57 PM |
| #23 Frank> you'd understand if you came here, boy Ah! Another of those things whose explanation I conveniently don't deserve to be given me. The bitterly-amusing thing is that the defenders of the "fighting words" concept are the ones who've been calling me a statist or even a Nazi. Told you I'm much more liberal than you -- I think that nobody should be hurt for the opinions he expresses. You obviously have the qualification "as long as we are not bothered by those opinions" attached to that. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 10:38:29 PM |
| #22 are you kidding? Aris would be the stiff little EUcrat that shows up in a tight little suit to arrest you. |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 10:38:05 PM |
| #21 So Aris is from Greece, heh! I believe Greece is part of the EU, which means, the freedoms that you enjoy now (due to the precious American blood) are going away. Aris, are you realizing that your freedoms are slowly being taken away by the chocolate making countries? Pretty soon you won't be able to make fun of ANYONE. I am NOT kidding when I say this, soon, there will be a law in the EU that states you will not be able to jeer anyone. If you do, you WILL go jail. |
| Posted by: Poison Reverse 2004-12-18 10:36:01 PM |
| #20 Simple: The First Amendment is not absolute. Period. Full Stop. You can argue fine concepts, but there is one that you cannot argue: what response someone else will deem appropriate. And you would be hard-pressed to find a single real-world pragmatist who would agree with you - especially a police officer who exercises discretion every day deciding when to pursue an arrest, and when not to. They will not help you if you follow your foolish line of reasoning. Bank it. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-12-18 10:36:00 PM |
| #19 Don't mess with the Easter Bunny. Them's fightin' words. |
| Posted by: Alaska Paul 2004-12-18 10:33:08 PM |
| #18 you'd understand if you came here, boy |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 10:32:30 PM |
| #17 Sorry, .com, but the concept of "Fighting words" was one I'd heard a while ago. Still not sure how you can reconcile it with the First Amendment, ofcourse. Anyone care to explain *that*? |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 10:31:35 PM |
| #16 Perhaps you are unaware of the legal doctrine of "Fighting Words". I've heard of it. I simply completely disagree with it. If you've been insulted enough that you think a person deserves to be clobberred then you should also be a man enough to accept the responsibility of that clobbering and pay the fine/jailtime due to you. Not hide behind so-called "legal concepts" that undermine the very essense of freedom of speech. Shopping for a headstone epitaph, I see When haven't I been? Frank G> you punked with the wrong crowd The right crowd you mean. The crowd who are themselves eager to physically attack people that insult their superstitiously-believed mass murdering deities -- the adult equivalent of the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. Which crowd should I have spoken to? One that agreed with me? How useless. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 10:30:08 PM |
| #15 Lol, OlSpook, you've now unloaded him onto Google to find out WTF you're talking about! They don't even mention such things in Greek schools, I'd wager. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-12-18 10:27:00 PM |
| #14 LOL Aris - you punked with the wrong crowd |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 10:20:05 PM |
| #13 Ari, perhaps you are unaware of the legal doctrine of "Fighting Words". Come visit me and go after my religion, especially in a loud bellicose and profane way. After you get back from the hospital, you can *TRY* to file charges. Bwahaha! |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2004-12-18 10:18:58 PM |
| #12 "My right to mock or insult anybody's religion is unassailable." Shopping for a headstone epitaph, I see. That one will do. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-12-18 10:18:52 PM |
| #11 Aris, I am not condoning violence. Remember, the tongue can kill like the sword. You have to right to make fun of other religions. But, you also, have the right to get your ass kicked. |
| Posted by: Poison Reverse 2004-12-18 10:17:31 PM |
| #10 and Merry Christmas to you and your family |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 10:15:44 PM |
| #9 A risk I'll gladly assume, ya little EU Nazi. Truth tells, doesn't it, ya little NannyStatist. Tell your rabid mobs to stay low, I don't take prisoners. Puss - give me my medal |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 10:13:37 PM |
| #8 They are VERY tolerant of other religions. If you leave them alone, they will leave you alone. Sorry, but that's just not good enough. My right to mock or insult anybody's religion is unassailable. In return they have the right to mock or insult my own beliefs. They don't have the right to respond with violence instead. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 10:12:57 PM |
| #7 Yeah, you've *so much* helped expand freedom, Frank. Baiting me is *definitely* the equivalent of protesting against a tyrant, a tyrannical regime, or an oppressive religion in your society. Who could ever doubt it. You've got the millions of people I've been oppressing every day to testify on your behalf. And right now you are bravely taking the risk of rabid mobs going out at my name to torch your house. Kudos. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 10:10:38 PM |
| #6 Frank, I think he is handing out "hush" medals. But, RB is not the place for that medal. Aris, There is no need to test the Sikhs. They don't make fun of other religions. They are VERY tolerant of other religions. If you leave them alone, they will leave you alone. The Mooselimbs on the otherhand...... |
| Posted by: Poison Reverse 2004-12-18 10:08:41 PM |
| #5 "baiters exercise free speech" No, they ask for it and then they get it. You would not last 5 minutes in a US High School, sonny. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-12-18 10:05:59 PM |
| #4 where's my medal, Aris? |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-12-18 9:57:23 PM |
| #3 Society would be way ahead if we just shot all rabid zealots and those who bait them. Except that the baiters exercise free speech while the rabid zealots are murderous vandalistic hooligans. On my part I think that those who "bait rabid zealots" are performing a sacred duty of testing and trying to expand the limits of religious tolerance. They should be given a medal. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 9:39:32 PM |
| #2 About the only religion you can get away with to some extent mocking or putting down is Modern Christianity. That is likely coming to an end. The Islamo-homosexuals can be thanked for that. Society would be way ahead if we just shot all rabid zealots and those who bait them. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-12-18 8:14:11 PM |
| #1 Somehow I think she asked for it... If you screw around with a bull, you'll eventually get the horn. Picking on people or intentionally pissing them off, however it comes about, and then expecting them to just take it - cuz "violence" is so un-PC - is just stupid. Only a LLL moonbat believes he can get in someone's face, tweak his nose, and expect him to contain his response. Why should he? The tweaker didn't. "Go ahead, make my day" comes to mind... Just my $0.02. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-12-18 8:04:10 PM |