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Home Front: Culture Wars
Liberals Already Squeaking: Next Pope MUST Be Liberal!
2005-04-04
Most Americans want the next pope to work for changes in Roman Catholic Church policies to allow priests to marry and women to join the priesthood.
"Yeah! We should be more like the Episcopalians! Look how well-respected they are! And their churches are always full..."
And they want more done to combat sexual abuse by priests, an AP-Ipsos poll found.
I guess if they're more like the Episcopalians more people will keep their kids home instead of sending them to church. That should help.
A solid majority of Americans, and Catholics in the country, are calling for the changes even while saying they widely admire Pope John Paul II, who favored the traditional policies.
I'm not sure what non-Catholic opinion has to do with it. If you want to have an opinion, join the church and obey the rules...
"He crossed so many boundaries, opened doors to many governments," said Joseph Riess, a Catholic businessman from Vienna, Va. "But I think it's time for changes."
"We don't live in a world of good and evil anymore..."
Just over half of Americans, 51 percent, and almost three-fourths of Catholics say John Paul, who died Saturday, will be remembered as one of the greatest popes, according to the poll conducted for The Associated Press by Ipsos-Public Affairs.
They said that about John XXIII, too. We'll see how long the attention span is...
The U.S. Catholic church is struggling with a variety of problems, including a dramatically shrinking U.S. priesthood, disagreement over the proper role for lay leaders, and a conservative-liberal divide over sexuality, women's ordination and clergy celibacy.
They weren't struggling with those issues back in the Latin Rite days...
About two-thirds of those polled said priests should be allowed to marry and almost that many said they want women in the priesthood.
"If the Episcopalians can have them, why can't we?"
A majority of Catholics supported both steps. More than four in five Americans — and about the same number of Catholics — said they want to see the next pope do more to address the problem of priests sexually abusing children. The church has been trying to deal with an abuse crisis that bubbled to the surface in January 2002 in the Archdiocese of Boston, then spread throughout the country. Since then, the church has adopted a toughened discipline policy, enacted child protection and victim outreach plans in dioceses, and removed hundreds of accused priests from church work.
So what else would you like done? Firing squads? Autos da fe?
Americans were divided when asked from where the next pope should come. Just over a third said he should be from Europe, while a similar number said he should be from a part of the world where Catholicism is growing fastest, like Africa or Latin America. The rest weren't sure. "I don't think it matters where they're from," said Heather Schramko, a clinical researcher and a Catholic from Perrysburg, Ohio. "But they need to modernize the church."
I'm not sure about the logic of that sentiment. Catholicism's advantage has been that it actually does take a position on matters of right and wrong, whether you agree with its conclusions or not...
The AP-Ipsos poll of 1,001 adults was taken Friday to Sunday and has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.
Posted by:Anonymoose

#34  Many of these are "Cultural Catholics" - that is they call themselves Catholic, and show up maybe on the major holidays for mass.

They are not representative of those who attend mass regularly. Were they truly Catholic, they woudl not hold forth such opinions on abortion, birth control, etc.

And bad news for them is that JP-II appointed all but 3 of the current eligible and voting Cardinals; and he tried to appoint mainly conservatives (conservative in terms of the Chruch, not US politics).

Myself, I think its high time we had a South American or African Pope. And all the best candidates from there are not in favor of ordination of women, abortios, or birth-control.

The only major "liberal" I think I've heard of is the Cardinal from Belgium.

But one never knows where God leads the Church - he certainly surprised us the last time, and what a man he picked! I hope we do at least half as well this time.

I do not want to jinx the fellow that I like, so I will not mention him, for the saying goes "Enter the conclave as Pope, leave as Cardinal".

One thing I can say that the left might get (and it wsa coming anyway) was ordination of married men into the preisthood - mainly as pastoral priests - i.e. they work in the parish, and are subordinate to the celibate clercy. This will be an adaptation from the Easter Rite, and it can piggy-back on the Permanent Diaconate (where married men are Ordained in the Catholic Church) which is already in place in the Roman Church.

It will work like this:

2 types of clergy: married and unmarried.

Unmarried will be celebate, and will not be allowed to marry. They do jsut like the current preisthood does now: they take their vows to the Church.

Married: THese will have to be married BEFORE they are ordained. They will enter the permanent diaconte, the same way current Permanent Deacons do, including the Oath to the Church -- and this includes the current oath that If their wife dies, they will become celibate and will not remarry. After enough service for discernment to a ttrue calling to the priesthood, they will apply and move up to full priesthood.

The celibat clergy will have no official restrictions on them, they will work as they do now. The Married Clergy will not be able to move up to Bishop, no hold any Church Office higher than Parish Priest, and practice only within their parish, and will be managed at the level of their local Bishop.

Thats the most "liberalizations" I expect to see - there is already precedent with Presbyterian ministers who are married and convert - they have (to the best of my knowledge) the same criteria and restrictions applied to them. This doctrine has been well worked out by the Eastern Church, and shoudl be the easiest (and most needed) change to incorporate.

The rest of the stuff: abortion, birth control, etc: just liberal pipe dreams - the theology is very clear on this and the Church cannot change it becasue of the basis in the Triune God, the scripture as the basis for the Church, the Catechism as its teachings, and Jesus Christ as the savior.
Posted by: OldSpook   2005-04-04 11:51:05 AM  

#33  Many of these are "Cultural Catholics" - that is they call themselves Catholic, and show up maybe on the major holidays for mass.

They are not representative of those who attend mass regularly. Were they truly Catholic, they woudl not hold forth such opinions on abortion, birth control, etc.

And bad news for them is that JP-II appointed all but 3 of the current eligible and voting Cardinals; and he tried to appoint mainly conservatives (conservative in terms of the Chruch, not US politics).

Myself, I think its high time we had a South American or African Pope. And all the best candidates from there are not in favor of ordination of women, abortios, or birth-control.

The only major "liberal" I think I've heard of is the Cardinal from Belgium.

But one never knows where God leads the Church - he certainly surprised us the last time, and what a man he picked! I hope we do at least half as well this time.

I do not want to jinx the fellow that I like, so I will not mention him, for the saying goes "Enter the conclave as Pope, leave as Cardinal".

One thing I can say that the left might get (and it wsa coming anyway) was ordination of married men into the preisthood - mainly as pastoral priests - i.e. they work in the parish, and are subordinate to the celibate clercy. This will be an adaptation from the Easter Rite, and it can piggy-back on the Permanent Diaconate (where married men are Ordained in the Catholic Church) which is already in place in the Roman Church.

It will work like this:

2 types of clergy: married and unmarried.

Unmarried will be celebate, and will not be allowed to marry. They do jsut like the current preisthood does now: they take their vows to the Church.

Married: THese will have to be married BEFORE they are ordained. They will enter the permanent diaconte, the same way current Permanent Deacons do, including the Oath to the Church -- and this includes the current oath that If their wife dies, they will become celibate and will not remarry. After enough service for discernment to a ttrue calling to the priesthood, they will apply and move up to full priesthood.

The celibat clergy will have no official restrictions on them, they will work as they do now. The Married Clergy will not be able to move up to Bishop, no hold any Church Office higher than Parish Priest, and practice only within their parish, and will be managed at the level of their local Bishop.

Thats the most "liberalizations" I expect to see - there is already precedent with Presbyterian ministers who are married and convert - they have (to the best of my knowledge) the same criteria and restrictions applied to them. This doctrine has been well worked out by the Eastern Church, and shoudl be the easiest (and most needed) change to incorporate.

The rest of the stuff: abortion, birth control, etc: just liberal pipe dreams - the theology is very clear on this and the Church cannot change it becasue of the basis in the Triune God, the scripture as the basis for the Church, the Catechism as its teachings, and Jesus Christ as the savior.
Posted by: OldSpook   2005-04-04 11:51:05 AM  

#32  I just mentioned Sin because I knew I heard that name before (so much like carnal sin....).

He's retired and about 80 now with a history of health problems. Still he showed that he could kick ass and take names which may be one of the qualities a pope needs now-a-days.

hehehe... how about an ARAB pope?
Posted by: CrazyFool   2005-04-04 10:07:49 PM  

#31  A black or Chinese Pope would be intriguing.

Actually, the Church has had three black African popes in its history: Victor (183-203 A.D.), Gelasius (492-496 A.D.), and Mechiades/Militiades (311-314 A.D.).
Posted by: Pappy   2005-04-04 9:46:18 PM  

#30  :-) Cardinal Jaime Sin was one of the big influences in booting the Marcos's out IIRC. I think he is semi-retired now at age 77.
Posted by: Frank G   2005-04-04 8:17:43 PM  

#29  See my #12 - Rooting for the Nigerian Cardinal for the reasons listed. Just thought the name "Sin" was ironic...
Posted by: BigEd   2005-04-04 7:43:40 PM  

#28  Sin played for the Cardinals back in the Ted Simmons era - backup catcher, I believe. Good arm , no hit
Posted by: Frank G   2005-04-04 6:46:54 PM  

#27  oops. that should be Cardinal Sin.....
Posted by: CrazyFool   2005-04-04 6:26:16 PM  

#26  BigEd,

I think Cardnal Sin was instrumental in the 'People Power' overthrow of Marcos (in the Philippines) as well as 'People Power II' (which dumped Estrada).
From: Library of Congress
Cardinal Sin, realizing that poor people would not refuse money offered for votes and that the ethic of utang na loob would oblige them to vote for the briber, admonished the voters that an immoral contract was not binding and that they should vote according to their consciences...
. . .
Marcos orders loyal troops to supress the uprising...
but Cardinal Sin, broadcasting over the Catholic-run Radio Veritas (which became the voice of the revolution), appealed to the people to bring food and supplies for the rebels and to use nonviolence to block pro-Marcos troop movements.

Hundreds of thousands responded. In the tense days that followed, priests, nuns, ordinary citizens, and children linked arms with the rebels and faced down, without violence, the tanks and machine guns of government troops....

I think he is retired now. Quotes:
The cardinal has always made clear he believes the Church has a duty towards politics.

"My duty is to put Christ in politics," he said at his retirement ceremony in November [2003].

"Politics without Christ is the greatest scourge of our nation," he added.

I think the ACLU will love this guy......
Posted by: CrazyFool   2005-04-04 6:25:10 PM  

#25  As someone else who doesn't have a dog in this fight, I think JPII, the first non-Italian pope in 400 years, was viewed as such a success that they will go with an African or Asian becuase that is where the 'market opportunities' are.

Otherwise I agree with .com, they should drop the warm fuzzy socialism.
Posted by: phil_b   2005-04-04 5:34:33 PM  

#24  Capsu78:"Charming"
Posted by: BigEd   2005-04-04 5:19:53 PM  

#23  I would get a lot more excited and forgive the death cult (All Pope. All Death. All the Time) portrayed by the macabre non-stop television coverage if:

I view it as Pope John Paul's final Mercy-
knocking Michael Jackson coverage off the air.
Posted by: Capsu78   2005-04-04 4:42:41 PM  

#22  .com you are correct...

What ever their doctrinal/cultural beliefs are (disagreements on female clergy/ contraception in my case) is individual and how one worships God...

However - what goes along with freedom is an understanding that Capitalism has the greatest potential to benefit the most people... Tired Socialist doctrine only leaves in place an entrenched elistist status-quo...
Posted by: BigEd   2005-04-04 4:38:19 PM  

#21  One comment from the peanut gallery...

I would get a lot more excited and forgive the death cult (All Pope. All Death. All the Time) portrayed by the macabre non-stop television coverage if:

The Catholic Church would leap 200 years forward and grasp capitalism, not failed socialism or communism, as the economic tough-love approach they should be espousing - especially in S. America, Asia, and Africa. Capitalism works and creates wealth, makes a bigger pie, not just redistributes what already exists. When the liberal Christian religions of the world, and the Catholics are the largest of the lot, start promoting economic sense, instead of continuing to promote failed worthless economic ideas, their followers will benefit - the world will benefit. This is their primary failing, IMHO.
Posted by: .com   2005-04-04 4:29:31 PM  

#20  
Screencap of Vatican Webcam

BTW : Did anybody notice there is a Cardinal Sin? From The Phillippines...
Look on the list above...

Posted by: BigEd   2005-04-04 4:26:11 PM  

#19  My money's on Cardinal Fang!...
Posted by: mojo   2005-04-04 4:16:26 PM  

#18  Vatican Webcam
Posted by: BigEd   2005-04-04 4:12:17 PM  

#17  Mark Z, Hail from a fellow macreal snapper! I think you overstate the "JPII dropped the ball when it came to the most obscene scandal in the past 60 years of church history." Most of the abuses happened before he was appointed Pope and involved a VERY small percentage of so-called Priests. I say so-called because they were acting as priest but they were not following Catholic teachings. These men are sick and deserve whatever they get, but this is NOT a systemic problem of the church. I hate to be a conspiracy theorist here but I bet those men became priest so that they could abuse their position. There are some Cardinals or Bishops in the U.S. that probably needed to thrown in jail for simjply transferring these men to clerical positions and not having them arrested. Not sure what you wanted JPII to do after he was made aware of the scandal? he acknowledged it and apologized on behalf of the church, what else would you have him do?
Posted by: Cyber Sarge   2005-04-04 4:01:49 PM  

#16  You really want to punish Bernie? Cut him off from lobster thermidor...
Posted by: tu3031   2005-04-04 3:38:09 PM  

#15  BigEd: It might be presumptiuous of me not being Catholic to suggest anyone, but, the idea of the fellow from Nigeria, Cardinal Arinze, seems intriging.

A black or Chinese Pope would be intriguing. I think it would significantly drum up interest in the Catholic church among their ethnic brethren.
Posted by: Zhang Fei   2005-04-04 3:34:54 PM  

#14  Article: About two-thirds of those polled said priests should be allowed to marry and almost that many said they want women in the priesthood.

It's kind of weird that they're polling non-Catholics on Catholic doctrine. What next? A poll of non-Muslims covering Muslim doctrine?
Posted by: Zhang Fei   2005-04-04 3:32:51 PM  

#13  Fred asked, "So what else would you like done? Firing squads? Autos da fe?"

No, but the Vatican could return the good Cardinal Bernard Law to the U.S. so that he could stand trial for conspiracy.
Posted by: Steve White   2005-04-04 2:49:47 PM  

#12  I am not a Catholic, but I am fascinateed by the process of transition. From the outside, one hopes they have someone who has the intestinal fortitude to stand up about the corruption from within (pedoiphilia), and get rid of the facilitators as well (including the Cardinals-Bye-bye Manning). But also, relizing we all are at war with Islamofacism, choose somebody who can confront that aspect up close & personal, much as John-Paul II faced off with Communism in the 1980s...

It might be presumptiuous of me not being Catholic to suggest anyone, but, the idea of the fellow from Nigeria, Cardinal Arinze, seems intriging... Especially since the Moslem North of Nigeria has a yen to stone adulterers... This might put a light on things like that and the larger problem of Islamofacism as a whole...
Posted by: BigEd   2005-04-04 2:15:02 PM  

#11  All I hope for is that Ratzinger is not the next Pope. He gave John Paul II bad advice regarding the molestation scandals, and just doesn't get it about how revolting and degrading that was to the dignity of the church.

That being said, it is possible to deeply love the church but have misgivings about some of the teachings of the church, Old Spook. The mere fact that someone is in the church every week proves nothing to me. Are they in there because they are devoted to Christ, or are they in there to prove to everyone else (and themselves?) that they are the holiest of all?

It is possible to disagree with the Vatican on some things and still be a good Catholic. It all depends on how you live your faith.
Posted by: Desert Blondie   2005-04-04 2:01:12 PM  

#10  The Irish are placing their bets. Literally...

More than 5,000 people have placed bets on who will be the next pope with Paddy Power PLC, Ireland's largest bookmaking chain. The early favorites are Dionigi Tettamanzi of Italy and Francis Arinze of Nigeria, both listed on 11-4 odds. That means a winning $4 bet would pay out $15. The biggest bet so far, $1,300, has been on Tettamanzi. The company said most bets are for much smaller amounts.
Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras is third with 9-2 odds, while Joseph Ratzinger of Germany and Claudio Hummes of Brazil both follow with odds of 7-1.
Jaime Lucas Ortega y Alamino of Cuba, Ennio Antonelli of Italy and Christoph Schoenborn of Austria come next, all at 14-1. Giovanni Battista Re of Italy stood alone at 16-1, while three others — Dario Castrillon Hoyos of Colombia, and Crescenzio Sepe and Giacomo Biffi, both of Italy —merited 18-1.
Posted by: tu3031   2005-04-04 1:54:34 PM  

#9  This may be an act of futility, but it's something of an urban legend that JP2 condemned the liberation of Iraq. See this thread over at National Review Online.
Posted by: Mike   2005-04-04 1:48:35 PM  

#8  Who Will Win? Here is the list:

Cardinal D O B Nationality

AGNELO Geraldo Majella . 19-Oct-33 . Brazil

AGRÉ Bernard . 02-Mar-26 . Ivory Coast

ÁLVAREZ MARTÍNEZ Francisco . 14-Jul-25 . Spain

AMBROZIC Aloysius Matthew . 27-Jan-30 . Canada

AMIGO VALLEJO Carlos, O.F.M. . 23-Aug-34 . Spain

ANTONELLI Ennio . 18-Nov-36 . Italy

ARINZE Francis . 01-Nov-32 . Nigeria

BACHKIS Audrys Juozas . 01-Feb-37 . Lithuania

BARBARIN Philippe . 17-Oct-50 . France

BAUM William Wakefield . 21-Nov-26 . U.S.A.

BERGOGLIO Jorge Mario, S.I. . 12-Dec-36 . Argentina

BERTONE Tarcisio, S.D.B. . 01-Dec-34 . Italy

BIFFI Giacomo . 13-Jun-28 . Italy

BOZANICH Josip . 20-Mar-49 . Croatia

CACCIAVILLAN Agostino . 14-Aug-26 . Italy

CARLES GORDÓ Ricardo María . 24-Sep-26 . Spain

CASTRILLÓN HOYOS Darío . 04-Jul-29 . Colombia

CÉ Marco . 08-Jul-25 . Italy

CIPRIANI THORNE Juan Luis . 28-Dec-43 . Peru

CONNELL Desmond . 24-Mar-26 . Ireland

da CRUZ POLICARPO José . 26-Feb-36 . Portugal

DANNEELS Godfried . 04-Jun-33 . Belgium

DAOUD Ignace Moussa I . 18-Sep-30 . Syria

DARMAATMADJA Julius Riyadi, S.I. . 20-Dec-34 . Indonesia

DE GIORGI Salvatore . 06-Sep-30 . Italy

DIAS Ivan . 14-Apr-36 . India

EGAN Edward Michael . 02-Apr-32 . U.S.A.

ERDO Péter . 25-Jun-52 . Hungary

ERRÁZURIZ OSSA Francisco Javier, dei P. di Schönstatt . 05-Sep-33 . Chile

ETSOU-NZABI-BAMUNGWABI Frédéric, C.I.C.M. . 03-Dec-30 . Democratic Republic of Congo

FALCÃO FREIRE José . 23-Oct-25 . Brazil

GEORGE Francis Eugene, O.M.I. . 16-Jan-37 . U.S.A.

GIORDANO Michele . 26-Sep-30 . Italy

GLEMP Józef . 18-Dec-29 . Poland

GROCHOLEWSKI Zenon . 11-Oct-39 . Poland

HAMAO Stephen Fumio . 09-Mar-30 . Japan

HERRANZ Julián . 31-Mar-30 . Spain

HUMMES Cláudio, O.F.M. . 08-Aug-34 . Brazil

HUSAR Lubomyr, M.S.U. . 26-Feb-33 . Ukraine

JAWORSKI Marian . 21-Aug-26 . Ukraine

KASPER Walter . 05-Mar-33 . Germany

KEELER William Henry . 04-Mar-31 . U.S.A.

KITBUNCHU Michael Michai . 25-Jan-29 . Thailand

LAW Bernard Francis . 04-Nov-31 . U.S.A.

LEHMANN Karl . 16-May-36 . Germany

LÓPEZ RODRÍGUEZ Nicolás de Jesús . 31-Oct-36 . Dominican Republic

LÓPEZ TRUJILLO Alfonso . 08-Nov-35 . Colombia

LOZANO BARRAGÁN Javier . 26-Jan-33 . Mexico

LUSTIGER Jean-Marie . 17-Sep-26 . France

MACHARSKI Franciszek . 20-May-27 . Poland

MAHONY Roger Michael . 27-Feb-36 . U.S.A.

MAIDA Adam Joseph . 18-Mar-30 . U.S.A.

MARCHISANO Francesco . 25-Jun-29 . Italy

MARTÍNEZ SOMALO Eduardo . 31-Mar-27 . Spain

MARTINI Carlo Maria, S.I. . 15-Feb-27 . Italy

MARTINO Renato Raffaele . 23-Nov-32 . Italy

McCARRICK Theodore Edgar . 07-Jul-30 . U.S.A.

MEDINA ESTÉVEZ Jorge Arturo . 23-Dec-26 . Chile

MEISNER Joachim . 25-Dec-33 . Germany

MURPHY-O’CONNOR Cormac . 24-Aug-32 . Great Britain

NAPIER Wilfrid Fox, O.F.M. . 08-Mar-41 . South Africa

NICORA Attilio . 16-Mar-37 . Italy

O’BRIEN Keith Michael Patrick . 17-Mar-38 . Great Britain

OBANDO BRAVO Miguel, S.D.B. . 02-Feb-26 . Nicaragua

OKOGIE Anthony Olubunmi . 16-Jun-36 . Nigeria

ORTEGA Y ALAMINO Jaime Lucas . 18-Oct-36 . Cuba

OUELLET Marc, P.S.S. . 08-Jun-44 . Canada

PANAFIEU Bernard . 26-Jan-31 . France

PASKAI László, O.F.M. . 08-May-27 . Hungary

PELL George . 08-Jun-41 . Australia

PENGO Polycarp . 05-Aug-44 . Tanzania

PHAM MINH MÂN Jean-Baptiste . 01-Jan-34 . Viêt Nam

POLETTO Severino . 18-Mar-33 . Italy

POMPEDDA Mario Francesco . 18-Apr-29 . Italy

POUPARD Paul . 30-Aug-30 . France

PUJATS Janis . 14-Nov-30 . Latvia

PULJICH Vinko . 08-Sep-45 . Bosnia-Herzegovina

QUEZADA TORUÑO Rodolfo . 08-Mar-32 . Guatemala

RATZINGER Joseph . 16-Apr-27 . Germany

RAZAFINDRATANDRA Armand Gaétan . 07-Aug-25 . Madagascar

RE Giovanni Battista . 30-Jan-34 . Italy

RIGALI Justin Francis . 19-Apr-35 . U.S.A.

RIVERA CARRERA Norberto . 06-Jun-42 . Mexico

RODRÍGUEZ MARADIAGA Oscar Andrés, S.D.B. . 29-Dec-42 . Honduras

ROUCO VARELA Antonio María . 24-Aug-36 . Spain

RUBIANO SÁENZ Pedro . 13-Sep-32 . Colombia

RUINI Camillo . 19-Feb-31 . Italy

SANDOVAL ÍÑIGUEZ Juan . 28-Mar-33 . Mexico

SARAIVA MARTINS José, C.M.F. . 06-Jan-32 . Portugal

SCHEID Eusébio Oscar, S.C.I. . 08-Dec-32 . Brazil

SCHÖNBORN Christoph, O.P. . 22-Jan-45 . Austria

SCHWERY Henri . 14-Jun-32 . Switzerland

SCOLA Angelo . 07-Nov-41 . Italy

SEBASTIANI Sergio . 11-Apr-31 . Italy

SEPE Crescenzio . 02-Jun-43 . Italy

SHIRAYANAGI Peter Seiichi . 17-Jun-28 . Japan

SIMONIS Adrianus Johannes . 26-Nov-31 . Netherlands

SIN Jaime L. . 31-Aug-28 . Philippines

SODANO Angelo . 23-Nov-27 . Italy

STAFFORD James Francis . 26-Jul-32 . U.S.A.

STERZINSKY Georg Maximilian . 09-Feb-36 . Germany

SUÁREZ RIVERA Adolfo Antonio . 09-Jan-27 . Mexico

SZOKA Edmund Casimir . 14-Sep-27 . U.S.A.

TAURAN Jean-Louis . 05-Apr-43 . France

TERRAZAS SANDOVAL Julio, C.SS.R. . 07-Mar-36 . Bolivia

TETTAMANZI Dionigi . 14-Mar-34 . Italy

TOPPO Telesphore Placidus . 15-Oct-39 . India

TUMI Christian Wiyghan . 15-Oct-30 . Cameroun

TURCOTTE Jean-Claude . 26-Jun-36 . Canada

TURKSON Peter Kodwo Appiah . 11-Oct-48 . Ghana

VIDAL Ricardo J. . 06-Feb-31 . Philippines

VITHAYATHIL Varkey, C.SS.R. . 29-May-27 . India

VLK Miloslav . 17-May-32 . Czech Republic

WAMALA Emmanuel . 15-Dec-26 . Uganda

WETTER Friedrich . 20-Feb-28 . Germany

WILLIAMS Thomas Stafford . 20-Mar-30 . New Zealand

ZUBEIR WAKO Gabriel . 27-Feb-41 . Sudan

Cardinal #118, "in pectore" . ? . ?
Posted by: BigEd   2005-04-04 1:41:09 PM  

#7  Barbara: The Kerry take on the Catholic Church is an old one. It hearkens back to the days when the Church was also the primary social and political organization in an area. Kerry and others are only interested in this latter part, feeling they had to be "Catholic" in order to get elected and have power, not giving two hoots for the "religious" parts. The Catholic Church itself contributed to this problem by refusing to discipline the secularly powerful, preferring instead to have some 'in' to the seat of political power. So, for this reason, many liberal Catholics feel free to blow off the religion, yet call themselves "Catholic" whenever it is to their social or political benefit, without, mind you, any feelings of hypocricy. They don't really recognize the Church's hierarchy, either, so feel fine about "democratic" determinations of morality. Sin? Vote on it.
Posted by: Anonymoose   2005-04-04 1:23:48 PM  

#6  JPII was a giant of the 20th century of that there is no doubt. His personal role in the downfall of communism cannot be overstated. JPII's rappoachment with the Jews is to be celebrated. His attempted (albeit failed) rappoachment with the Eastern Orthodox churches was heartfelt and sincere. The failure can be laid at the feet of the Orthodox churches through no fault of JPII.

HOWEVER...on certain issues you'd have thought the Vatican was located in Berkley, CA.

JPII would've done well to brush up on the theory of "Just War" as promulgated by Augustine and Acquinas before pronouncing Gulf War I and Operation Iraqi Freedom illegitimate. The Pope was wrong to oppose both wars.

Furthermore (and MORE importantly), there IS the issue of the child sex scandals that've rock the Catholic Church here in the USA and abroad. Historians will rake JPII over the coals (with good reason) for allowing his bishops, his cardinals, and his priests to sweep the child sex crisis/scandal under the rug.

#1 above, (tu) comments on the "good" Bernard Cardinal Law. Heh. The reason Cardinal Law is residing in Vatican City is because the USA has no extradition treaty with the Vatican. Not that it really matters since no prosecutor in the Boston area had the balls to indict him with conspiracy to obstruct justice and failure to report a felony.

Having now spoken allow me to pre-empt any personal attacks on my opinions: I'm Catholic. I HAVE a picture and HAVE HAD a picture of the Pope in my office since 1987. My wedding was Polish (my wife is Polish on both sides - her mom and dad). I shed tears upon learning of his death. JPII was a great man BUT his legacy will be forever tarnished should there be any true accounting of his life.

The indisputable fact remains: JPII dropped the ball when it came to the most obscene scandal in the past 60 years of church history. Not since Pius XII's failure to resist (or even fight) Hitler and, later, Stalin, has the church had so much to be ashamed of.

Did JPII love the children...the young people? Yes he did. Of that I have no doubt. But even this great man had no effective response when he learned that some of his priests, some of his bishops, and (yes) some his cardinals were perverts violating the young. That, my friends, is the actual Veritatis Splendor.
Posted by: Mark Z.   2005-04-04 1:22:46 PM  

#5  Interesting summary, OS.

I'm not Christian, so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have pissed off a number of casual acquaintances and total strangers by asking them why, if they don't agree with the central tenets of their particular religion, they claim to be of that religion. (Not just Catholics, either.)

It's not like there aren't any other choices. The number of religions out there is HUGE; surely people who don't agree with the central principals of one religion should be able to find one that agrees with them (and that's what it appears to be about - not that these people should agree with their chosen religion, but that their chosen religion must agree with them).

I've actually had some people tell me they can't leave their religion - something about that's the only way they'll get into Heaven. So I ask them what makes them think they'll get into Heaven if they don't follow the teachings of the religion that's supposed to get them into Heaven.

Then they really go away pissed. :-D Makes my day every time.

If you're going to profess to following a particular faith, follow it. If you're not, don't lie and say you are. It never seems to occur to these people that their all-powerful god who knows everything unto the end of time can certainly know what's in their hypocritical little minds and hearts. And will remember when their judgement day comes.

And yes, Liberals, I'm talking to YOU.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut   2005-04-04 12:31:22 PM  

#4  Many of these are "Cultural Catholics" - that is they call themselves Catholic, and show up maybe on the major holidays for mass.

They are not representative of those who attend mass regularly. Were they truly Catholic, they woudl not hold forth such opinions on abortion, birth control, etc.

And bad news for them is that JP-II appointed all but 3 of the current eligible and voting Cardinals; and he tried to appoint mainly conservatives (conservative in terms of the Chruch, not US politics).

Myself, I think its high time we had a South American or African Pope. And all the best candidates from there are not in favor of ordination of women, abortios, or birth-control.

The only major "liberal" I think I've heard of is the Cardinal from Belgium.

But one never knows where God leads the Church - he certainly surprised us the last time, and what a man he picked! I hope we do at least half as well this time.

I do not want to jinx the fellow that I like, so I will not mention him, for the saying goes "Enter the conclave as Pope, leave as Cardinal".

One thing I can say that the left might get (and it wsa coming anyway) was ordination of married men into the preisthood - mainly as pastoral priests - i.e. they work in the parish, and are subordinate to the celibate clercy. This will be an adaptation from the Easter Rite, and it can piggy-back on the Permanent Diaconate (where married men are Ordained in the Catholic Church) which is already in place in the Roman Church.

It will work like this:

2 types of clergy: married and unmarried.

Unmarried will be celebate, and will not be allowed to marry. They do jsut like the current preisthood does now: they take their vows to the Church.

Married: THese will have to be married BEFORE they are ordained. They will enter the permanent diaconte, the same way current Permanent Deacons do, including the Oath to the Church -- and this includes the current oath that If their wife dies, they will become celibate and will not remarry. After enough service for discernment to a ttrue calling to the priesthood, they will apply and move up to full priesthood.

The celibat clergy will have no official restrictions on them, they will work as they do now. The Married Clergy will not be able to move up to Bishop, no hold any Church Office higher than Parish Priest, and practice only within their parish, and will be managed at the level of their local Bishop.

Thats the most "liberalizations" I expect to see - there is already precedent with Presbyterian ministers who are married and convert - they have (to the best of my knowledge) the same criteria and restrictions applied to them. This doctrine has been well worked out by the Eastern Church, and shoudl be the easiest (and most needed) change to incorporate.

The rest of the stuff: abortion, birth control, etc: just liberal pipe dreams - the theology is very clear on this and the Church cannot change it becasue of the basis in the Triune God, the scripture as the basis for the Church, the Catechism as its teachings, and Jesus Christ as the savior.
Posted by: OldSpook   2005-04-04 11:51:05 AM  

#3  Joseph Riess, a Catholic businessman from Vienna, Va.

Any bets on whether this guy is a member in some Catholic "reform" group? Ditto for Heather Schramko.
Posted by: Robert Crawford   2005-04-04 11:47:09 AM  

#2  Most Americans want the next pope to work for changes in Roman Catholic Church policies to allow priests to marry and women to join the priesthood.

The question is, were those 1,001 people absolutely random, or carefully selected and culled to get the desired numbers?
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama   2005-04-04 11:21:54 AM  

#1  So good to see Bernie Law's pious mug all over my TV this weekend. Looks well fed, rested, and ready. Maybe he'll take it. Just ask him...
Posted by: tu3031   2005-04-04 11:11:35 AM  

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