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| Europe |
| Hungary second country to ratify EU constitution |
| 2004-12-20 |
| Hungary has become the second country to ratify the European Union constitution with a parliamentary vote, seven months after joining the bloc. ... Hungary's MPs ratified the text, signed by EU leaders on 20 October, by 304 votes to nine. A close result, I see. The first popular referendum is expected to take place in Spain in February. |
| Posted by:Aris Katsaris |
| #25 Jackal--yes, what you said. Very concise. |
| Posted by: Asedwich 2004-12-20 10:47:32 PM |
| #24 Ah, I do believe I understand what you're saying, TGA. It's very vile to have the ideas of our neighbors shoved down our throats, without any recourse by vote. But please do tell me, do you think that while the German people avoid the referendum for fear of failure, as it provides no alternative to the proposal---do you think they would welcome a vote that would make a more participatory inclusion in the Euro? Because right now, it seems as though the Euro is constructed in such a way that the member states are forced to take the lumps their neighbors dish out, without any outlet for progress or constructive dialog. |
| Posted by: Asedwich 2004-12-20 10:46:30 PM |
| #23 While we didn't have direct elections to determine whether to ratify, neither did we simply let the existing state governments have that authority. The conventions were called specifically to address whether to accept or reject, with no other issues (except amendments, perhaps). The members of the conventions were directly elected and presumably ran on the basis of ratify/not. If the European states called for elections to a convention based on ratification/not, with the members having no say on anything else (local budget, terrorism, tariffs), then that would be what we had. Having the existing parliaments do the ratifications is not the same thing at all. Now, ratification becomes just one more issue, like taxes, defense, welfare, whatever. |
| Posted by: jackal 2004-12-20 10:36:40 PM |
| #22 Asedwich, I don't like it that the people of my neighbor countries get to vote on the Constitution while we can not. The French get to vote on the Constitution that was dominated by the ideas of Giscard and we just sit idle? Why don't the German parties want the referendum? Because they are afraid it could fail. Same with the Euro. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-12-20 10:32:18 PM |
| #21 Not sure where you're going Mrs. Davis. I think you're making a non-distinction against what TGA said. We didn't have a referenda here in America. I really don't believe TGA is saying he wants one in this case either. If you're saying that the American people didn't get a vote, much less a plebiscite, well boo hoo hoo. Funny how things have worked out so well. |
| Posted by: Asedwich 2004-12-20 10:27:11 PM |
| #20 Angash, The Constitution, which was only to have been improvements and modifications to the Articles of Confederation, does begin, We the People, in letters big enough to make it clear to which government in our federal system the delegation of sovereignty would lie. Ratification was a close run thing in conventions. Had it been subject to referenda, the outcome might have been different. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2004-12-20 10:01:35 PM |
| #19 True, the German Basic Law does not allow for referenda (which was done exactly to prevent plebiscites in Hitler fashion but times have changed). There was a joint move of the parties to change that article. Now this move has been postponed for times after the ratification of the EU constitution. In the case of the EU arrest warrant the German Basic Law, that prohibits the extradition of German citizens from Germany, was changed in a heartbeat (most Germans didn't even realize this yet), which I believe was a hightly questionable action as the defendant cannot challenge his extradition while being in Germany. A simple error could force you to defend your case in Spain or Latvia. I don't think that Germans will sit quietly while the French, the British and the Poles are voting... Problem is, up to now nobody really bothers to explain what the EU Constitution actually means for Germany. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-12-20 9:54:11 PM |
| #18 nix that on Italy not allowing referenda -- seems situation there a bit more complicated. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-20 9:41:11 PM |
| #17 In the ten new member states it's not really so important, because they just voted last year to join the Union, and the Constitution doesn't much change things since then (and even if it did, the general shape of it was clear in advance). But I fully agree with you, TGA, in regards to Germany, especially give how you didn't vote for Maastricht either. I think a referendum should take place in Germany, and I think European integration will suffer in the long term because of the fact it won't... But as is I believe the case with Italy, your constitution doesn't allow it, right? Start voting for parties urging for a change in the constitution in this respect. :-) |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-20 9:34:05 PM |
| #16 With all due respect Mrs. D, the "American People" had to start somewhere, just like those of any other nation. Remember, we were just those upstart colonists before that little declaration thingy. We were decidedly not American citizens. |
| Posted by: Angash Elminelet3775 2004-12-20 9:32:29 PM |
| #15 Very true, TGA. The mere opportunity to "vote" does not a democracy ensure, especially when the vote simply allows affirmation or negation---and does not provide any real material alternative. True political discourse requires some upward movement of ideas and political power, not the dissemination of alternatives by a political elite. |
| Posted by: Angash Elminelet3775 2004-12-20 9:30:50 PM |
| #14 Well, if it's any consolation, TGA, the American people did not get to vot on theirs, either. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2004-12-20 9:29:54 PM |
| #13 The problem is (and it was the same problem with the Euro) that if all major parties want the Constitution, the citizen has no possibility of expressing his will in elections (by voting for or against the party that supports the Constitution or the Euro). What is worse, it prevents a REAL discussion about the Constitution... meaning that politicians don't have to work hard to defend it. Just sign along the dotted line. And this is what I can't have. The "people" did not participate in working out the Constitution, and now they should not even vote on THEIR constitution. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-12-20 9:20:16 PM |
| #12 Naploelon loved plebiscites. So did Hitler, so did Saddam. Castro still loves them. But I guess the EU calls them "referendums." I'd use one for something like the county public swimming pool, but never for something of national importance. I believe I'm with you, TGA. |
| Posted by: Angash Elminelet3775 2004-12-20 9:14:10 PM |
| #11 Article I,1 begins with... "Reflecting the will of the citizens and the States of Europe..." There are more and more citizens in Germany who think they should actually express their will... Unfortunately the major parties seem poised to prevent it. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-12-20 9:13:05 PM |
| #10 jackal> Yeah, I've uploaded to Wikipedia already, and inserted it to the EU Constitution article. Here. The last referendum in Greece happened back in 1974, when we abolished the monarchy. There's been no referendum since then. So yeah, unfortunately over here they don't tend to happen. On this issue, btw, opinion polls show that the Constitution would pass easily if a referendum were to happen. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-20 9:00:49 PM |
| #9 Thanks a lot, Aris. Are you going to keep it up there, or going to make further attempts at Wiki? I'm curious about Greece: are referenda simply not done there for anything? |
| Posted by: jackal 2004-12-20 8:38:08 PM |
| #8 "If it weren't for those damn Swiss..." |
| Posted by: Rafael 2004-12-20 6:26:58 PM |
| #7 Nicely done. Didn't realize Poland was gonna do a referendum. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-12-20 5:58:31 PM |
| #6 Well there seems to be some problem currently with my wikipedian connection or something, so here's uploaded to my own site instead: Ratification and Referendum map |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-20 5:10:38 PM |
| #5 Hold on a sec, I'll be uploading a map to Wikipedia in a couple mins. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-20 4:47:32 PM |
| #4 Whats the referendum/ratify lineup these days? |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-12-20 4:31:47 PM |
| #3 Ratify... probably Referendums... hummmmm |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-12-20 4:22:15 PM |
| #2 Indeed. My own prediction is that all of them will ratify except UK. Other than UK, the next risk of non-ratification I judge to be Denmark, then (far after it) Poland and Spain. I'm not worried about Portugal, France, Belgium, Ireland or the Netherlands. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-12-20 4:19:10 PM |
| #1 It will be interesting to see what the results are once populations start to vote. |
| Posted by: Tony (UK) 2004-12-20 3:59:41 PM |
