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Europe
German officers accused of torturing conscripts
2004-11-22
The German army has suspended 18 training personnel who are alleged to have dressed as Arabs and tortured conscripts during a series of mock hostage-takings. The conscripts were ambushed during a night march, bound, hooded and bundled into a truck. They were made to kneel against the wall of a barracks basement to be beaten, drenched with cold water and electro-shocked, according to a news magazine report.
The electric shock is a bit much, but otherwise sounds like a standard escape & evasion training exercise.
A civilian prosecutor said that 70 to 80 conscripts had been involved, but none appeared to have suffered permanent physical harm. The army said the exercise, allegedly to toughen the men in case they were taken hostage, was not authorised.
Oops!
Army personnel at the base, in Coesfeld, near the northern city of Muenster, have reportedly been warned to keep names of the accused secret. They may be charged with abuse of subordinates. A report in Monday's German news magazine Der Spiegel said there had been four separate mock hostage takings at the Coesfeld base between June and September this year. In Koblenz, the army command confirmed the suspension of a captain and 17 non-commissioned officers. A spokesman told Deutsche Presse- Agentur dpa the group was banned from wearing German army uniforms. The suspects also face an internal disciplinary inquiry. He said the lapse had been made public in a little-noticed announcement on 11 November. According to Spiegel, recruits were only warned about something unpleasant that would toughen them up, and told they could escape at any time by shouting a password, but would then be branded as cowards. The spokesman declined to confirm any of the details. The victims were part of a repair battalion, not an elite fighting unit.
Ok, may have been over the top then. These drills are SOP for Special Ops types and pilots in case they are captured.
The magazine said the trainers may have been inspired by reports of US torture in Abu Ghraib, Iraq.
More likely they may have seen or read about this type of training in other forces and decided to try it on their own.
Spiegel said one victim had been photographed with his pants off. Investigators were checking reports that the incidents were video-taped.
You videotape these classes to review later to refine your training.
It was not clear why the trainers adopted Arab head-dress.
Well, duh!
Posted by:Steve

#16  CS - you left out a step.

5. Volunteer to collaborate at the first opportunity.
Posted by: Darth VAda   2004-11-22 10:31:11 PM  

#15  Well I have no nostalgia for the Wehrmucht, thank you very much.
Posted by: True German Ally   2004-11-22 7:35:40 PM  

#14  :)
ROFLMAO.
Posted by: Shipman   2004-11-22 7:21:17 PM  

#13  TGA: This is not the Wehrmacht. There are few soldiers who have more rights than German ones.

That much is apparent.
Posted by: Zhang Fei   2004-11-22 7:12:46 PM  

#12  It's obvious that things went too far here. The conscript's question is irrelevant though. No conscript is forced to participate in international missions, you can only volunteer for them.
And drafted soldiers have ample opportunities to complain to superiors if things go too far. This is not the Wehrmacht. There are few soldiers who have more rights than German ones.
Posted by: True German Ally   2004-11-22 6:52:16 PM  

#11  ;-)
Posted by: Frank G   2004-11-22 4:26:39 PM  

#10  Frank, *you* get over it. Because I disagree with you on what the point of the thread is, doesn't mean that I'm trying to "divert the thread". *You* think the issue of conscription irrelevant and unimportant, I think it relevant and significant. Deal with the fact that not everyone conforms to your point of view.

Now, your personal attacks on the other hand are *definitely* trying to divert the thread since the question of whether I am a "model EU apparatchik" or not are definitely not relevant to the issue. So leave the thread alone if (as usually), you've come not to discuss the subject but rather make jabs at me.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris   2004-11-22 4:15:25 PM  

#9  If only the Germans would follow the French model of E&E.
1 - Stop where you are
2 - Drop weapon
3 - Raise hands over head
4 - Learn to enjoy captivity
Posted by: Cyber Sarge   2004-11-22 4:13:40 PM  

#8  "It alters (or ought to alter) the power that the state can wield over you."

I disagree. The only thing that matters is that they receive the most realistic training possible in order to operate under extreme duress, i.e. in a combat environment. If that means getting beat down (like what happens to us at mock POW training) or electrocution - so be it.

If you were conscripted Aris I'd imagine you would want the most realistic training possible (which is often the harshest) in order to save your life and the lives of your fellow soldiers in combat or whatever the case may be. How you came to be there is irrelevant. Now, if there's a mission impact study on the difference between conscripted performance versus voluntary soldier performance wrt mock pow training then that should be noted. However, the bottom line is that unit cohesion and mission accomplishment is the focal point of a professional combat unit - all soldiers must be treated a like. There cannot be a contractual distinction between conscripts & volunteers wrt to training.
Posted by: Jarhead   2004-11-22 3:52:01 PM  

#7  whether they're conscriptsor not matters, just not to the argument at hand. As usual, you've tried to divert the thread. The question was whether escape and evasion training had any simular activities...see your #3 again (and again, and again....). Sorry you got called a Hitler - get over it. I consider you a statist controller with little sense of humor - the worst kind of future bureaucrat, and a model EU apparatchik
Posted by: Frank G   2004-11-22 3:32:29 PM  

#6  Frank G -- I'd consider it relevant on whether someone's there because he wants to or because he is obliged to. It alters (or ought to alter) the power that the state can wield over you.

Remember that I was recently called a "Hitler" because I thought that people who'd chosen the Pharmacist profession ought to sell medicine according to prescriptions. Oh, the horror of forcing them to sell medicine.

Now, you think it makes no difference on whether people choose or don't choose to be soldiers? And that this affects not at all whether the state should be able to beat (and electrocute) them as part of their training? It seems to me it does. Even if you think the state should *still* be able to electrocute its soldiers, you can't just ignore the conscript nature of the army as non-relevant.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris   2004-11-22 3:27:10 PM  

#5  Aris, Escape and Evasion training was standard in the late 60's and early 70's when the US military was largely draftees. I don't think of it often, but the POW resistance training was not pleasant. In fact it was standard procedure at the AF survival school to keep students away form the instructors after the training to protect the intstructors. There was an incident at Fairchild AFB where a chance encounter between some students and instructors in a bar resulted in the hospitalization of the instructors.
Posted by: RWV   2004-11-22 1:10:08 PM  

#4  thx for pointing that out, Aris - the two sentences are not related
Posted by: Frank G   2004-11-22 12:19:30 PM  

#3  This is a standard part of escape and evasion training here in the US military.

The US army isn't composed of conscripts.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris   2004-11-22 11:52:37 AM  

#2  At least they weren't dressed like a bunch of militant home-schooling parents...
Posted by: Seafarious   2004-11-22 10:03:01 AM  

#1  This is a standard part of escape and evasion training here in the US military. The German military is just laughable. The training is such a watered-down version of what they have to prepare for - in the event of capture - (beheading) that there shouldn't be any issues, whatsoever. The all-conquering Wehrmacht would have laughed their heads off at these dandies.
Posted by: Zhang Fei   2004-11-22 9:58:49 AM  

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