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| Self-proclaimed messiah receives federal funding - your tax dollars at work |
| 2004-10-04 |
| Moonies knee-deep in faith-based funds Pushing celibacy, marriage counseling under Bush plan President Bush has some new troops in his crusade to promote "healthy marriage" and teen celibacy with federal funds -- followers of the Rev. Sun Myung Moon, the controversial Korean evangelist and self-proclaimed new world messiah. How nice. Any megalomaniac is now eligible for federal funding. At least four longtime operatives of Moon's Unification Church are on the federal payroll or getting government grants in the administration's Healthy Marriage Initiative and other "faith-based" programs. Two of those Moon associates were in Oakland last week leading dozens of local pastors and social workers enrolled in a "Certified Marriage Education Training Seminar" at the Holiday Inn next to the Coliseum. In some ways, Moon is an unlikely ally for President Bush's crusade to promote traditional family values. Convicted tax cheat and cult leader, what's not to like? |
| Posted by:Zenster |
| #20 Thanks, Zenster, but it's strictly self-survival: You bet it is, Ptah. In the rush to capitalize upon a government that has so mistakenly abrogated the separation of church and state, few people who are now enjoying this current favortism seem to realize that the precedent being set could just as easily be turned against them. A Christian I used to know recognized the need to keep abortion legal. His reasoning was that if certain components of religious doctrine were incorporated into the body of law, what would prevent even more specialized proscriptions from becoming mandatory? Perhaps it would be decreed that there was only one allowable day of worship, (i.e., Sunday). What then for the Seventh Day Adventists or Jews? American Christians who are currently reveling in this newfound government sponsorship of their faith are somehow able to neglect the full implications of eroding the separation of church and state. Merely pause to consider what the response would be if the tables were turned and such favoritism was shown to Islam. Need I go on? A man should stand in the pulpit because God called him and he obeyed, not because money or power called him. Which is why I detest so many of the televangelists. Great local congregations have been positively ruined by con-artists like that. It diverts faith from God to man, and that's a recipie for disaster. And connivers like Sun Myung Moon do exactly that. By promoting a cult of personality, Moon seeks personal ascendancy in a realm which is more properly devoted to the immaterial. Moon's willing diversion of funds in support of personal luxury assures that such disaster will not be visited upon himself (at least not now). Through such perversion of both his and the spirit of so many others, he wreaks a disaster of monumental proportions. The broken minds and ruined lives he leaves in his wake should be grounds for criminal prosecution. |
| Posted by: Zenster 2004-10-04 6:40:08 PM |
| #19 Thanks, Zenster, but it's strictly self-survival: A man should stand in the pulpit because God called him and he obeyed, not because money or power called him. Great local congregations have been positively ruined by con-artists like that. It diverts faith from God to man, and that's a recipie for disaster. God can take care of His own, thank you very much. When a religious organization's finances take a nosedive, it just MIGHT be a signal from God to shut it down and do something else, or hit the prayer carpet, not pick somebody else's pocket. My version of a faith based initiative is reading Matthew 7:7 and not eating anything for a week... |
| Posted by: Ptah 2004-10-04 3:40:14 PM |
| #18 But to make Moon and Robertson equivalent with Sadr and jihadis is rather unwise. It is difference of several orders of magnitude. I am not sure how you can't see it. Or is your atheism blinding you so you don't see the difference? Then your atheism may be a form of religion. Zhang Fei, where do I directly equate Christian fundamentalism with jihadism? Your use of inductive reasoning flies in the face of your more usually well-thought-out posts. It is especially unbecoming when you make baseless assumptions and pronouncements regarding my religious orientation or supposed lack thereof. Who are you to up and decide what my beliefs are without the least inquiry or prior statement to cite? As a Christian, I resent being lumped in with Pat Robertson and his loony theories of the end-times. I don't find much resemblance between PR's Christianity and my own. Christianity, like other religions, is a very heterogeneous thing, with a wide variation in beliefs and practises. VifV, where do I lump all Christians in with nutjobs like Moon and Robertson? I just happen to have a real problem with cultists and zealots. SPoD's solution for zealots has a special appeal all its own. Fortunately, America's constitution and people should be able to withstand the onslaughts of such morons. That said, it does not make them any easier to tolerate. That being said, anybody who thinks they can take government money and not escape government scrutiny and control has rocks in their heads. Government money attracts frauds, con artists, and the opportunistic in the same way that government power in the hands of the Roman Catholic church attracted the power hungry during the middle ages and early Renaissance. The Faith based initiative is the means for the government camel to stick its nose into the Church's tent, and we Christians will have only ourselves to blame. Brilliantly said, Ptah. You have encapsulated many of my most profound objections to the Office of Faith Based Giving in your tidy summation. That you, as a Christian, have the courage to criticize a measure that ostensibly seems to benefit your own faith, is even more admirable. |
| Posted by: Zenster 2004-10-04 2:54:04 PM |
| #17 Oh get a GRIP. Who exactly is calling for whose death NOW? That being said, anybody who thinks they can take government money and not escape government scrutiny and control has rocks in their heads. Government money attracts frauds, con artists, and the opportunistic in the same way that government power in the hands of the Roman Catholic church attracted the power hungry during the middle ages and early Renaissance. The Faith based initiative is the means for the government camel to stick its nose into the Church's tent, and we Christians will have only ourselves to blame. |
| Posted by: Ptah 2004-10-04 11:48:11 AM |
| #16 SPOD: zealots just need to be shot. I really don't care about what people believe. If they want to believe in Allah, fine. If they want to believe in Vishnu, fine. My problem is with people who think it is their right to impose their views on Americans by killing us in large numbers. If they want to do this to people in other countries, that's fine with me. But if they stick it to us, we should administer to them a thrashing they won't forget for a while. Among our enemies, mothers should scare their children by warning them of being visited by the big, bad Americans. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-10-04 10:59:06 AM |
| #15 Two of those Moon associates were in Oakland last week leading dozens of local pastors and social workers enrolled in a "Certified Marriage Education Training Seminar" at the Holiday Inn... I once stayed at Holiday Inn. Now I am a head coach in the NFL... |
| Posted by: Dragon Fly 2004-10-04 10:11:48 AM |
| #14 .com "zealots just need to be shot." thats what I said. I didn't qualify it. I meant all of them religious, secular, don't give a damm. I am all for it. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-10-04 9:44:34 AM |
| #13 Okaaaaaay. Didn't JFK (the real one) have to jump through a few thousand hoops to convince people he wouldn't let the Pope run America when he ran for President? Does this outrage apply evenly across ideologies? Are there "good" zealots? Interesting question, no? It was dumb to hire these people, assuming the characterization given isn't hyperbole (and SFGate just might be having a litter of secular kittens here), and the people who did it will suffer for it - as they should. "At least four" isn't a particularly frightening number and their positions aren't particularly influential or important, are they? Much ado about nothing? Crying wolf? I dunno, let's see how it goes. So, um, back to the even-application question: does this outrage open the door for sweeping ALL of the fucking zealots out? The State Dept and certain individuals with both private agendas and the arrogance to pursue them on the job (Valery Plame comes to mind) have received attention here before. There are more corners in need of cleaning... The Federal Courts, Civil Service, both NEAs (Education Assoc and Endowment for the Arts), PBS, every university which receives federal grants and funding, and every other goddamned organization that chews up our tax dollars - will they also have their zealots booted, whether secular, fascist, socialist, or religious? As soon as the Carter & Clintoon Era assholes are on notice, as well, I'll get behind an effort to play whack-a-tard. Now that would be something to get excited about! |
| Posted by: .com 2004-10-04 9:40:12 AM |
| #12 Moon and Robertson do not (as far as I know) deliberately target and commit murder and rape of children (and adults). Followers of Moon and/or Robertson were not in that school in Russa stabing babies and hauling children into rooms to be gang raped. They are not in Sudan murdering adults and gang-raping children. (In the name of God). They dont preach 'Kill! Kill! Kill!'.... |
| Posted by: CrazyFool 2004-10-04 9:32:28 AM |
| #11 As a Christian, I resent being lumped in with Pat Robertson and his loony theories of the end-times. I don't find much resemblance between PR's Christianity and my own. Christianity, like other religions, is a very heterogeneous thing, with a wide variation in beliefs and practises. |
| Posted by: V is for Victory 2004-10-04 8:23:23 AM |
| #10 It's a good idea to stay clear of involvements with cultists, zealots and the ignorant. Of the 3 ignorance is usually curable, cultism is some times and zealots just need to be shot. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-10-04 6:00:22 AM |
| #9 Chill Zenster. Save your righteous wrath for the real enemy, Jihadism. Rev. Moon and Pat Robertson are tiny blips compared to Jihadist murder and conquest, past and present. |
| Posted by: dennisw 2004-10-04 5:35:08 AM |
| #8 "Am I right in thinking that you do not have a problem with some dirtbag like Pat Robertson blaming the 9-11 atrocity on American homosexuals?" Zenster, who wouldn't? He's a loon. Most of the people do have the same opinion. Those that purchase his snake oil... well, it is their choice. But to make Moon and Robertson equivalent with Sadr and jihadis is rather unwise. It is difference of several orders of magnitude. I am not sure how you can't see it. Or is your atheism blinding you so you don't see the difference? Then your atheism may be a form of religion. |
| Posted by: Memesis 2004-10-04 5:25:32 AM |
| #7 My enemy is Islamic fundamentalism and Jihadism. While not wishing to discount how dangerous Islamism is to this entire world, permit me to suggest that all of this is just another face of the real demon we need to slay, namely, ignorance. Stopping terrorism will not cure ignorance. Ensuring that self-serving, narrow-minded zealots like Moon, Robertson, Sadr, Bashir and all the rest are unmasked for the intolerant grasping spiritual bigots that they really are, would better serve all involved. |
| Posted by: Zenster 2004-10-04 5:15:32 AM |
| #6 Sun Myung Moon and Pat Robertson are just alright by me. Moon owns the Washinton Times which is a great right leaning newspaper. I know who my enemy is and it's not those two. My enemy is Islamic fundamentalism and Jihadism. My enemy is the Mohammedanism that seeks to destroy the Jewish home, Israel. |
| Posted by: dennisw 2004-10-04 4:23:38 AM |
| #5 Zhang Fei, you mean to say that you do not have a problem with some wingnut like Sun Myung Moon running around declaring himself the new world Messiah? Am I right in thinking that you do not have a problem with some dirtbag like Pat Robertson blaming the 9-11 atrocity on American homosexuals? |
| Posted by: Zenster 2004-10-04 3:52:36 AM |
| #4 looky here at your mighty hero, 4336 |
| Posted by: Memesis 2004-10-04 3:03:19 AM |
| #3 Hahaha! Haven't seen such a drivel for quite a bit. |
| Posted by: Memesis 2004-10-04 2:58:47 AM |
| #2 Separation of church and state is subverted by the "faith based" office. The only way to get rid of that Bush creation, is to elect Kerry. After election, he can be pressured to support secularism in the captive states (Muslim). If Bush is re-elected, he'll run up more $450+ billion per year deficits, on worthless democraticization windmill tilting in the Mullahtocracies. If you want to think post-Mecca; think post-Bush. |
| Posted by: Anonymous4336 2004-10-04 2:41:06 AM |
| #1 Zenster has a problem with the Unification Church and he has a problem with Pat Robertson. Maybe Zenster should move to a country that is largely free of Christianity, such as Saudi Arabia. Or maybe Israel. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-10-04 2:29:42 AM |