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| Israel-Palestine |
| EU says Israeli force excessive |
| 2004-10-02 |
| Posted by:Fred |
| #43 Any weakening of the US favors the French - it doesn't matter how it happens or who is responsible - or who is president. Arrogance and pure nationalism is a dangerous thing in todays world. The French seem to believe in the "enemy of my enemy" bit. We now realize that if they draw that distinction then they are clearly lining up on the other side. |
| Posted by: JP 2004-10-02 11:37:52 PM |
| #42 I should add that it's a shame that you can't read Le Canard Enchainé online. Been reading it for over 25 years now (it's a weekly satirical paper with no ads, so fiercely independent). Apart from being witty and a master with words, it really spares no one. Mitterand (whom the Canard only called "Tonton" - Uncle) hated it, so did Giscard. And I bet Chirac hates it, too. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-10-02 11:25:13 PM |
| #41 True, he has a good grab of French politics. Maybe Raffarin did say it but not in public and word got out. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-10-02 11:21:04 PM |
| #40 Still I don't like it that much when uncorrobated "facts" get propagated by bloggers without double checking. If we want to be taken seriously we must (at least) exercise the same scrutiny as journalists. Agreed. But the NY Post OpEd was authored by Amir Taheri, an expert of significant influence who as you know writes for many European as well as US publications and is about as solid as they come. Perhaps he was misinformed on this matter, but he's usually reliable. Certainly more reliable than Mary Mapes or Dan Rather. |
| Posted by: lex 2004-10-02 11:11:45 PM |
| #39 It can't hurt noting that the latest French diplomatic efforts to free the French hostages have failed and this DOES puzzle the Quai d'Orsay. Of course they are blaming it now on "U.S. interference". I wish they could see that they are just turning into the "useful idiots" of the Arab World. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-10-02 11:08:12 PM |
| #38 lex, I have been checking on the French as much as I have been checking on the Soviets in the Cold War... and yes, the thinking would certainly not surprise me. What would surprise me if Raffarin said such a thing in public. This would be a big "faux pas". Still I don't like it that much when uncorrobated "facts" get propagated by bloggers without double checking. If we want to be taken seriously we must (at least) exercise the same scrutiny as journalists. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-10-02 11:05:22 PM |
| #37 Do you seriously believe that France's diplomats are not delivering either that message or a variation on it across the middle east right now? Villepin refused to answer when asked, at the outset of the war, whether he wanted the US or Saddam to win. There's a small mountain of evidence to suggest that the quote, if true, would not be expressing anything new or shocking. |
| Posted by: lex 2004-10-02 10:47:47 PM |
| #36 I should add that I also read the political satirical paper Le Canard Enchainé, which would surely pick up such an idiotic phrase. And this is the only French paper afraid of really nobody. Actually French politicians DO SAY dumb things and they don't go unnoticed by the Canard. Nothing there. But it's amazing how many bloggers picked up this NYPost hearsay. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-10-02 10:32:41 PM |
| #35 I tend to question it, too, if only because the Frenchies are too smart to get quoted saying something that dumb. |
| Posted by: Fred 2004-10-02 10:26:27 PM |
| #34 I can't find Raffarin's alleged quote either in Le Figaro. I read it daily and I would remember. Also French Google News has nothing. I don't think this would go unquestioned in Germany. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-10-02 10:21:45 PM |
| #33 lex, I'm not sure that this claim (about the French PM's words) has been verified at all. As noted in the Rantburg thread about that topic, all references to these words return to that NY POST's "reportedly saying", referenced supposedly from the Figaro. It's very cyclic. We don't yet know if it was actually said or not. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-10-02 10:08:26 PM |
| #32 Since the EU didn't exist in 1950 and 1960. *Technically* correct, in the sense that it's *technically* correct that the EU was only created in 1993 with the Treaty of Maastricht. Also misleading ofcourse. Has the EU stated it will defend Israel from arab agression? Right now EU isn't even allowed to state that it will defend its *own* members against armed aggression -- let alone Israel. That fact had led me to ranting and raving against the UK some months back. I, for one, am all in favour of the EU being given defense and military competencies, so that one day it might be allowed to say "We will defend Israel against aggression. And our own member-states too, btw.". If the EU supports Israel how can it give money to Arafat a known terrorist. In the same way that Israel itself gave money to Arafat, a known terrorist. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-10-02 9:54:26 PM |
| #31 Y'all can piss on ach other s much as you like, but the fact remains, Aris, that the Prime Minister if France has just explicitly admitted that France considers the Iraqi fascist neck-sawers and child-slaughterers to be France's "strongest ally." That is a truly extraordinary statement, one that should cause every American to wake up to the fact that in the middle east, France is on the other side. And that any US presidential candidate who is so foolish as to believe that France is our ally and wishes us anything but ill in Iraq is not qualified to lead this country. |
| Posted by: lex 2004-10-02 9:46:56 PM |
| #30 lex can you point to any EU statement that gives support to Israel? Since the EU didn't exist in 1950 and 1960. We know it can't have done so during that time period. Is the policy of the EU to support Israel against arab agression? Has teh Eu stated it will defend Israel from arab agression? France and Germany are the EU. What France and Germany decide the Eu will do the EU does. The EU surely is not led by the sheep sodomizing small dicked greeks. If the EU supports Israel how can it gives money to Arafat a known terrorist. Face it the EU will be against Israel because it is factually anti-Semitic. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-10-02 9:27:01 PM |
| #29 But the EU has no desire to help Israel now. SPoD is right France's only allegance is to themselves and $$. We did become Israel's greatest and they our alli. |
| Posted by: incarnateofleeatwater 2004-10-02 9:21:16 PM |
| #28 But Aris misses the larger point, which is that France has in the past two decades decisively tilted toward the pan-arabists I didn't miss the point. I simply only cared about addressing the blatant untruth. On the whole I agree with you, except for the last sentence. But careful, lex. You are likewise helping destroy Sock Puppet's "proof" which entirely hinged on Europe never ever supporting Israel even once since its creation. He'll be asking about the size of *your* dick next. :-) |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-10-02 9:02:12 PM |
| #27 Lex Thats right we were neutral. The US response to the Suez crisis was right at the time. French support of Israel has always been about the money. I doubt the French gave any modern arms or aircraft to Israel. They were glad to sell them. The whole Suez thing has more to do with smacking down Egypt and pan-arabism and almost nothing to do with Israel. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-10-02 9:00:06 PM |
| #26 Aris is correct: France was Israel's biggest backer until the mid-sixties. It was LBJ who turned the US from grudging neutrality toward the strong pro-Israel stance that every subsequent US president has upheld since. But Aris misses the larger point, which is that France has in the past two decades decisively tilted toward the pan-arabists, and now the jihadists. As French PM Raffarin said to the head of Le Figaro a week ago, "The Iraqi resistance are our strongest allies." He didn't need to add, "...[allies] against l'hyperpuissance." The point is that it;s not French anti-jewishness that dictates their anti-Israel stance but France's triangulation reflex: they will always seek to thwart the US and if possible reduce US influence wherever they can do so at minimal economic cost to France. This reflex will only strengthen as France's islamic population grows in numbers and influence. |
| Posted by: lex 2004-10-02 8:48:24 PM |
| #25 Your maniac rage and refuge at petty insults, at having to deal with facts does indeed show that debate will be useless. But at the same time you ask me questions. Some consistency, please? "What document can you point to that proves this?" Proves what exactly? That France and Israel supported each other in the e.g. Suez crisis, and that the USA did not support them? That's a fact. Yes, France was selling weapons to Israel in the 50s and 60s. And in repayment for Suez, France helped Israel build its first nuclear reactor. On the other hand the USA didn't sell a single weapon to Israel until 1962 if the info I've googled up is right -- USA sold a lot of weapons to Arab countries during the 50s though. That's not a debate either. That's also facts if I'm not mistaken. And the size of our dicks is really irrelevant, boy. But "Fuck off and die" to you too. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-10-02 8:27:55 PM |
| #24 "That's nonsense. Back in the 50s and 60s it was France in general that was one of the main supporter of Israel. (They were flying Mirage jets, in 1967, I think.) And it was the USA that was mainly *not*." France will sell anything to anyone. They will even sell nuclear reactors to Iraq for creating nuclear weapons if they can get away with it. Big deal no proof there. What document can you point to that proves this? Can you show one news paper clipping from the time? Is your Greek dick so short that you like most of you fellow EU members can't do anything but carp on about how the US is all fucked up, Israel is always wrong and the EU is alway correct and godlike in every thing it does or says? Don't try to debate with me Aris Katsaris. You will be talking to yourself. I will not participate. As they say FOAD, HAND. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-10-02 8:08:21 PM |
| #23 The proof of this is the fact in 55 years it has given nothing but lip service to supporting Israel as a nation. That's nonsense. Back in the 50s and 60s it was France in general that was one of the main supporter of Israel. (They were flying Mirage jets, in 1967, I think.) And it was the USA that was mainly *not*. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-10-02 7:57:58 PM |
| #22 Sock Puppet of Doom, just to add to your well written article...Another thing the EU does not get is (if) when the Islamoterrorists are done with the Jews, the Christians are next. The Islamoterrorists are the doorstep of the Christian community in EU, they just don't get it. Fact: 1. 1600 churches in Europe have been turned in to Mosque's 2. The Nazis started killing the Jews first before they started killing the Christians |
| Posted by: Poison Reverse 2004-10-02 7:30:21 PM |
| #21 And yes, I believe in Faulkner. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-10-02 7:12:46 PM |
| #20 I'm not much for reading the bible, but the Hamlet series from Faulkner is excellent for this sort of conflict. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-10-02 7:12:24 PM |
| #19 The problem with the EU is it can not grasp or understand the concept of Arabs wanting to kill every Jew on earth if possible. Not just the total destruction of Israel but; to eliminate every Jew on earth. Europe thinks because it's half civilized and keeps it's anti semetic tendencies mostly out of sight that the whole of the world does. Europe can't understand that when arabic culture senses any weakness they will exploit it. They certainly don't understand the islamic religious imperative to kill all jews. Israel can never show weakness or accept any attack by arabs or islam without responsding to it. If Israel does not respond the consequences are the destruction of Israel. The arabs have proven themselves totally incapable of learning from past expereince. The shit holes that are Gaza and the west bank of the Jordan today are the result of that inability to learn. Palestine would be a state today if it wasn't for the intafada. Instead everytime a Israeli is killed whether Jew or Arab, Israel kills many Palestinians. The inequality of the numbers of dead and damage done to the Palestinian system should be instructive. The suicidal actions of the Palestinian people are an exapmle of how empty their culture and thought processes are. The intifada has been a path of destruction and hate and the result is a destroyed palestinian infrastructure and economy. Israel is doing fine. The Palestinians are not. Europe needs to get is head out of it's colective ass and see whats really going on. Europe is so insular that it just doesn't get it in the Arab Israeli confrontation after 55 years. Europe is still largely anti-semite despite whatever it says. The proof of this is the fact in 55 years it has given nothing but lip service to supporting Israel as a nation. Spain who deported Jews in mass to hasten the second comming at one point of it's amply genocidal history should keep it mouth shut. I don't know what to think of the Netherlands. I have a dear friend there and he is no anti semite in fact he has a deep resent for arabs (one raped his ex girl friend and was never caught.) I really think there is a disconnect between the media, ruling elites and the people in the EU. But given the long history of anti semitism in europe it think most people find it acceptable to attack Israel and claim it's a matter of principle when we all know that it is the old anti semitism. "Kill the jews", it is "the jews fault" has always been a method of distraction used by the ruling classes in europe and no matter how things change they seem to sadly stay the same. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-10-02 7:09:52 PM |
| #18 "It's clear PR feels it doesn't much matter who wins the election..(concerning Israel)" .com In a way, you are right about me. I come from a biblical point of view, so whether it is this election or the election 10 years from now. Israel is the apple of God's eye. Israel will never be someone's political pawn. For anyone to say that Israel is going to destroyed because of what happens this election or the next election, is calling God a liar. If you don't believe me, read the Bible. I know that RB is political place and not a religious place, but I thought I had to make my thoughts clear. |
| Posted by: Poison Reverse 2004-10-02 7:04:16 PM |
| #17 Israel says EU Cowardice Excessive. |
| Posted by: Mark Z. 2004-10-02 6:34:24 PM |
| #16 If the explict bureaucrats in the EU Just as a trivial sidenote: These comments weren't from the bureacrats of Brussels, but from the rotating EU presidency -- that currently means the Netherlands government, not a supranational body. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-10-02 6:20:29 PM |
| #15 "excessive force" hmm. does the EU have a definition of acceptable force? If the explict bureaucrats in the EU do then they should publish their weighting tables so the world's nations can know when they are acceptable or excessive. If not they should just shut up. |
| Posted by: 3dc 2004-10-02 6:09:13 PM |
| #14 Still the State Department does send mixed messages to Israel as well when Powell called on Israel to "limit its military response". The United States invaded Iraq to fight the expansion of terrorism... Israel should have the same right with Gaza. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-10-02 5:54:13 PM |
| #13 A qassam rocket killing one Israeli Child already is excessive force. |
| Posted by: Ptah 2004-10-02 4:59:21 PM |
| #12 Is post #8 clueless or disingenuous? In other words, tool or troll? It's clear PR feels it doesn't much matter who wins the election, which I guess translates into Thanx, PR, I appreciate the clarity you've provided. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-10-02 4:56:46 PM |
| #11 "Kerry will not dare to touch Israel. The Republican Congress will slice him alive." It isn't clear to me how you expect this to come about; the Republicans in Congress (at least those there right now) aren't renowned for having stupendous reserves of courage, and a number of them are already having cold feet over the WoT even with Bush in the White House. And if Bush loses the election, Republicans in the Senate and House are likely to become more tremulous, not less. And in any case, what matters here is not what Kerry or Congressional Republicans would do: what matters is whether or not Israel will be willing to put their faith in Congressional Republicans to save them from Kerry's negligence and cluelessness. And the answer to that, I think, is that they won't. They will act to save themselves. |
| Posted by: Dave D. 2004-10-02 4:37:53 PM |
| #10 The Republican Congress and the Democratic Senators from New York and Florida and California.... |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-10-02 4:06:49 PM |
| #9 and for all that, the majority of American Jews will vote Dem out of liberal groupthink and habit.... sad |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-10-02 4:02:38 PM |
| #8 Kerry will not dare to touch Israel. The Republican Congress will slice him alive. If Kerry pushes the issue, Kerry can forget about a second term. That of course, is assuming that he can win a first term. |
| Posted by: Poison Reverse 2004-10-02 3:39:59 PM |
| #7 "they're going to figure they're on their own" And they will be dead right. Skeery's reference to Israel in the 1st debate was a DU Talking Point, on the same disingenuous level as caring about the US Troops. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-10-02 2:29:09 PM |
| #6 "Their survival is problematic with a Prez Skeery - they'd have little to lose. Nov 3rd might be Apocalypse Day." That's pretty much what I'm figuring. And if Kerry wins, I doubt they'll wait til Inauguration Day to make their move; rather, I expect they'll do it soon after the election so as to have as much of the worldwide post-strike rage as possible dissipate before Bush leaves office. Because once he's gone, they're going to figure they're on their own. |
| Posted by: Dave D. 2004-10-02 2:24:53 PM |
| #5 I have to agree, Dave, I mean - could the world hate Israel more? I'm not sure it's possible, thus not sure that it matters what Israel does. I figure they only have one friend in the world, us, so as long as we keep the faith... Which brings us to Skeery... Mebbe the Israelis should go ahead and nuke everyone threatening them, while they are alive to do it. Their survival is problematic with a Prez Skeery - they'd have little to lose. Nov 3rd might be Apocalypse Day. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-10-02 2:16:09 PM |
| #4 The EU is welcome to bite my shorts. And Israel, in my opinion, is welcome to do whatever it deems appropriate to counter the threat of Paleoboomers-- and I do mean, WHATEVER. |
| Posted by: Dave D. 2004-10-02 1:57:04 PM |
| #3 Israel sez 'EU attention unnecessary, already done enough by arming, funding Paleo terrorists who kill Israeli women, children, infants'. "Thanks, but you can STFU" |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-10-02 1:28:16 PM |
| #2 Oh, the humanity. Somebody call the waaaaaa-mbulance. |
| Posted by: Sgt. Mom 2004-10-02 1:27:47 PM |
| #1 EU says Israel doesn't need an army to protect itself. |
| Posted by: Anonymoose 2004-10-02 1:27:00 PM |