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| David Warren: The debates |
| 2004-10-01 |
| Anything can happen in election debates, and I can understand how frontrunners would rather sit on a lead than risk the bad hair day that changes history. The pressure on the challenger is more constructive: he will do or he will die. From his view, risk looks good, and should the final nail be hammered in his coffin, it was nevertheless a coffin that was closed. We have three debates coming up in the States between President George W. Bush and Senator John F. Kerry, the first tomorrow. From the fact Bush aced Gore in their exchanges four years ago, and Mr. Kerry is no match for the debater Mr. Gore was before he lost his marbles (his recent public statements have been incoherent rants), it does not follow that Mr. Bush will land knockout blows this time around. Mr. Kerry has the strength corresponding to his weakness: like our own former prime minister, Jean Chretien, he is impossible to pin down. But it's deeper than that. Not since Carter v. Reagan has a U.S. presidential election offered so stark a choice, if then. The two sides have shifted farther apart, and the views of Jimmy Carter himself illustrate the progressive evacuation of common ground. |
| Posted by:tipper |
| #8 RJB, Iâm responding to your statement: âare agnostic or worseâ. I decided a long time ago that a benevolent God would not condone the pain and evil I see in the world. Humanity must make its own good. Most Christians Iâve met are good people. I suspect that most Muslims are also good people. I also believe that people can get so convinced of the rightness of their cause that they deny the humanity and goodness of others. I hope that agnostics, atheists, Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Muslims can work together against thugs, gangsters, demagogues, fascists, and extremists of all types. |
| Posted by: Anonymous5032 2004-10-01 12:01:55 PM |
| #7 About the whole Christian/Darwin thing, I don't think this is as big an issue as some might want it to be. I have found that one can recover almost, if not all, of Christian morality using memetic evolutionary theory, and without refering to any deity. Whether you "do unto others as you want them to do unto you" because God, or Jesus tells you to, or because Confucius says so, or because it is the only known way of building a society that will benefit all of its inhabitants, is irrelevant. Why you do it is not important. The consequences of what you is what is important. Actions have consequences, and those consequences are independent of all the mental effort that goes into picking which actions one take. While that mental effort helps a lot in picking which action we "should" take, it does nothing to influence what results from our chosen actions. So whether you come at that choice via Christian teaching, or atheistic philosophy, so what? If you do what always did, you'll get what you always got. |
| Posted by: Ben 2004-10-01 8:36:28 AM |
| #6 C'mon Lex, I don't see how I deserved the comments concerning creationism/Darwinism, or the assumption on your part that I believe every WOT supporter is necessarily a Christian. You might have that knee looked at. Look, in my humble opinion the Book of Genesis is obviously not a scientific document, nor was it ever intended to be. One must really consider the context and intent of the thing. Conversely Darwin's theories are not spiritual in nature. If you try real hard you could see them as opposite sides of the same coin. I stand behind my comments about the Black community and their historical allegience to the Democratic party. Further more I don't usually concern myself with the bleatings of the left, and yes that includes Hitchens, it would seem to me that anyone who needed to watch the Trade Towers fall to realise that Jefferson was a wise man (or whatever) will probably revert back to his old ways when things settle down (assuming they ever do). No I remember to much of his rantings pre-9/11, I've yet to be convinced of his sincerity. |
| Posted by: RJB in JC MO 2004-10-01 7:12:37 AM |
| #5 Leftists may say that it is not in the class interests of the working class to vote Republican, but this shows a major failure to understand basic free market economics. Rich people are the ones who create jobs, build factories and serve as incubators for all kinds of business ventures before they can pay for themselves. Rich folks take risks with their money that the poor can ill afford. Besides which, a free market economy has a fractal nature. My boss is my customer, I sell (rent?) him my labor and expertese. Just as he has products he sells to his customers, he is my customer for my product which is training, and abilities. So it makes a lot of sense for poor folks to vote Republican. Republicans are going to defend them, and keep their taxes low. The Republican party is the party of the rich, or anyone who wants to be. |
| Posted by: Ben 2004-10-01 6:53:47 AM |
| #4 the support the Dems have historicaly enjoyed from the Black community makes little sense and hasn't been in their best interest for some time Funny, that's exactly what leftists say about white working-class and poor evangelicals' support for economically conservative, pro-business Republicans. Why don't we have one party for people who believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, and another party for those who prefer Darwin? Myself, I think that in our war with the jihadists we can take more guidance from Darwin or Machiavelli than from any religious text. Not to be snarky, but please don't assume that every American who supports the war is a christian, or even religious. btw Hitchens is against fascists of all types. He says he now favors Thomas Jefferson over any socialist, and admires Paul Wolfowitz. Which is pretty much my view of things as well. |
| Posted by: lex 2004-10-01 6:31:56 AM |
| #3 Well Lex as you know there are very few absolutes. If you'll notice I was refering to my personal experience. That said I believe we both know that Blacks in this country are an aboration of sorts, most of their recognised national leadership, Jesse Jackson, Sharpton, ect, are a bunch of opportunists who have lomg since sold their souls to the crumbs they grub for at the feet of the Democratic party. I think we both could agree that the support the Dems have historicaly enjoyed from the Black community makes little sense and hasn't been in their best interest for some time. I've also noticed that there would seem to be some evidence that all that is starting to change which I see as a positive development and proof that the overall community is starting to mature. As for Hitchens, yes he has seen the light in reference to the Islamofacists! But I remember Chris from before 9/11, and can't quite forget what a socialist whack job the guy was! Think of all the ills that plague western Europe, Hitchens would have had us follow their lead and I don't think that can be argued. Sheesh, I've rambled enough for now, you'll have to forgive me if I just hit the submit button without proof reading this. ;) Regards RJB in JC MO |
| Posted by: RJB in JC MO 2004-10-01 6:21:58 AM |
| #2 Not entirely. African-Americans are intensely religious and just as devoted to the Democrats as white evangelicals are to the Republicans. Also, there are more than a few hawkish atheists, most prominently Chris Hitchens, who are determined to destroy the jihadists and therefore will support the war party 100%. Some of us hawks reject theocrats of all stripes, mind you. |
| Posted by: lex 2004-10-01 5:44:07 AM |
| #1 I can't speak for any other part of the country but in the part of the midwest that I regularly travel in (MO, KS, NB, OK) this story couldn't ring any truer! I personally don't know a profesed Christian who isn't a Bush backer. Conversely most of the Kerry backers I know or have talked to are agnostic or worse. This David Warren guy knows what he's talking about. |
| Posted by: RJB in JC MO 2004-10-01 5:34:34 AM |