| Submit your comments on this article |
| Africa: Horn |
| Syria tested chemical weapons on black Darfur population: German WELT reports |
| 2004-09-14 |
| German article in Die Welt, quick and dirty translation of TGA (better than machine translation) Note that German Intelligence Services usually leak to Die Welt, so they don't make that stuff up. Secret Services: dozens of victims from Jacques Schuster In June of this year Syrian special forces have used chemical weapons against the Black-African population of Darfur. The action in which dozens of people died, occurred in arrangement with the Sudanese government, a conclusion Western Secret Services have reached. This is supported by reports of eyewitnesses which were published in different Arabian media. Judging from the documents of Western Intelligence services in possession of die WELT, Syrian officers have met representatives of the Sudanese army in May of this year in a suburb of Khartoum. The conversations dealt with the question about how to expand the military collaboration. According to Secret Service information the Syrian delegation has offered Sudan a closer cooperation in the area of chemical warfare. The sources furthermore say that it has been suggested to test the chemical agents on the rebels of the Sudan People's Liberation Army (SPLA). Because in May Khartoum was in peace negotiations with the rebels, the Sudanese delegation apparently advised to test the agents on the Black-African population. To do that at least five airplanes of the Syrian civil airline Syrian Arab Airlines were flown from Damascus to Khartoum. Aboard were specialists of the Syrian University for Chemical Warfare including engineering equipment. When the Darfur mission started cannot be exactly ascertained. Yet in an article of the Arabian website "Ilaf" on August 2nd Sudanese eyewitnesses report odd occurrences in Khartoum's Al Fashr hospital. In June suddenly several dozens of deep frozen corpses are said to have been brought to the hospital, showing strange injuries on the whole body. After a short time Sudanese soldiers are said to have blocked off a wing of the building. Afterwards, if one believes the witnesses, the access was only permitted to an unknown Syrian doctor's team. After days Sudanese forces transported the bodies away. For some time already military experts have information about a Sudanese Syrian collaboration in the area of chemical weapon research. Also Syrian members of the opposition have repeatedly reported on the testing of chemical weapons on prisoners. |
| Posted by:True German Ally |
| #48 Old Spook, this sounds as if the chemical attacks happened quite a while ago - before the Sudanese called on the Syrians to remove the chemical material. Is it probable that the camps for training jihadis that are located in the Sudan are very simular to the AQ camps in Afghanistan. The Taliban allowed the camps but didn't directly control the actions of the jihadi Arab-mafia in the camps. These Sudanese camps would have the advantage of being located in close proximity to a population of victims. When the Syrian/Arab thugs decided to try out the gas on the local populous, the Sudanese realized that news of this would be the third-rail for their regime and demanded that the evidence be packed up and returned to Syria. I don't know when in the timeline the Zarqawi attempted chemical attack on Jordan occured. |
| Posted by: Super Hose 2004-09-15 12:51:13 AM |
| #47 It's ok cingold,AP drives a pickup with a PETA bumper sticker- People Eating Tasty Animals. |
| Posted by: GK 2004-09-15 12:03:13 AM |
| #46 cingold---**slurp** I will take that under **gulp** advisement. |
| Posted by: Alaska Paul in McGrath, AK 2004-09-14 11:41:17 PM |
| #45 BTW, the moose stew here is great! They are organically grown, heh heh. Ssssssh! Mucky will hear you . . . ; ) |
| Posted by: cingold 2004-09-14 11:11:53 PM |
| #44 Mmmmmm, I don't think we really want to invade Syria guys. We're two invasions away from WWIII as it is. That's why the U.N. tiptoes so daintily around Muslim issues. Luckily invasion is not necessary. The whole world already knows we're waging a war on terrorism, and that Mr. Bush has said we'll hunt them down no matter what country they're hiding in. So use the CIA and other intelligence assets to positively locate the WMDs - if they exist - and send in the crack teams. If you invade, you become responsible for the real estate and the masses and nation-building and all that jazz. And you spend billions on that. Best, I think, to handle this one the old-fashioned way, with spooks backed by our military elite. |
| Posted by: Mister Write 2004-09-14 11:07:41 PM |
| #43 Syria's never looked back after Powell gave Baby Assad a good cop warning. They figured that Bush would lose the election, and their Mad Mullah buddies in Iran would help take up the slack after Saddam's fall. Syria is begging for a serious wack, especially if this CW stuff turns out to be true. I hope that we or someone can get good proof of this CW, just to silence the asshats. The theatres of operations are very fluid these days, and so critical. BTW, the moose stew here is great! They are organically grown, heh heh. |
| Posted by: Alaska Paul in McGrath, AK 2004-09-14 10:50:40 PM |
| #42 Old Spook, no, I don't work for them. Know a few things, don't know a few other things... |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-09-14 10:20:29 PM |
| #41 This will cause some sleepless nights in Tel Aviv, if even remotely true. I'm sure the Israelis know where the "sensitive" areas are, and how to take them out. I'd also bet that Turkey is none too happy about it, either. Iraqi missiles had to travel a long way to hit Israel - Syria's right next door. Lebanon's open to them as well. Asshat may have just cut his own throat. There's no way Israel can allow chemical weapons to be positioned on its northern border and hope to survive. |
| Posted by: Old Patriot 2004-09-14 10:08:43 PM |
| #40 TGA: You dont work for them do you? LOL! And no, I dont want to peel the onion any further. Leave it up to the guys on watch now. No sense in me waking up the mooks before they get whats coming to them. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2004-09-14 10:06:45 PM |
| #39 There certainly are jihadis and camps in the Sudan that need to be taken out, but I think that the Sudan intervention has been sold to Americans correctly - as a humanitarian necessity. I'm sure that terrorist camps and chemical weapons can be made to disappear, but I'm sure that we won't have any trouble finding oppressed people in Darfur once we get in there. I'd like to see an immediate "no-fly" zone established and Special Ops begin taking down the terrorist training camps. |
| Posted by: Super Hose 2004-09-14 9:20:59 PM |
| #38 He can say no more. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2004-09-14 9:12:56 PM |
| #37 I will not confirm or deny the source. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-09-14 9:09:12 PM |
| #36 OS, worrisome for whom and why? |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2004-09-14 9:07:49 PM |
| #35 Drudge doesn't have this up yet, Yosemite Sam, but Little Green Footballs has it posted, with over 100 comments on the thread. Any bets on how long until Rush Limbaugh mentions this? TGA, Old Spook, thanks for the perspective on the source. The Syrians are going to find the near future more interesting than they'd expected when they got up this morning! |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2004-09-14 9:06:13 PM |
| #34 Ab5 eh? Never worked with them but they have a reputation. If it were Ab1, then thats normal foreign work. That the Anti-Terr branch is on the case is worrisome. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2004-09-14 8:45:47 PM |
| #33 Ummmmmmmm, maybe. What's in it for the Syrians? Why would they use Chem in the Sudan. What is their payoff? Think 'Spanish Civil War'. Sudan has had low-intensity conflicts going on for over 30 years. Plenty of training opportunities. |
| Posted by: Pappy 2004-09-14 8:31:00 PM |
| #32 Payof: Syria needs oil and if they are in a fight with the Iraqi's then it won't come from there. Sudan is sitting on a pile. Or maybe they did want to test in an area where they believed they would not be caught. |
| Posted by: remote man 2004-09-14 8:06:15 PM |
| #31 To find out if their own mix works, is my guess. Perhaps this was the "test drive" resulting from Syria's handover of those pharmaceutical plants to their military. |
| Posted by: Zenster 2004-09-14 7:27:29 PM |
| #30 LGF Colt? |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-09-14 6:02:44 PM |
| #29 Why would they use Chem in the Sudan. What is their payoff? To find out if their own mix works, is my guess. |
| Posted by: Colt 2004-09-14 5:29:06 PM |
| #28 Ummmmmmmm, maybe. What's in it for the Syrians? Why would they use Chem in the Sudan. What is their payoff? Makes more sense to sit on the good stuff, especially while the Yankees are so close to the border. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-09-14 5:23:53 PM |
| #27 Abteilung 5: Operative Aufklärung / Auswertung Organisierte Kriminalität-Internationaler Terrorismus |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-09-14 4:20:42 PM |
| #26 TGA Any ideas as to which part of the BND favors Die Welt? Ab1, Ab2 or Ab5? If its Ab5, then this all of a sudden gets VERY interesting. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2004-09-14 4:04:12 PM |
| #25 Since the UN seems hamstrung as soon as the word "Muslim" is uttered in connection with crimes, what possible repercussions could there be, if it does turn out to be true? I believe the technical term is "bugger all". |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-09-14 4:02:06 PM |
| #24 RN (1st posting) You are 100% correct about Saddam's WMD 'trucked' shipped into Syria and beyond. Where is the New York Times on this? |
| Posted by: Mark Espinola 2004-09-14 3:59:14 PM |
| #23 Al-Gehlen |
| Posted by: lex 2004-09-14 3:49:47 PM |
| #22 OldSpook-always appreciate what you add to the discussion. If any news site has it though, it's already out of the bag in a sense, isn't it? LH-True. I think these two border-sharing, Baathist regimes have much in common. Wonder if we have really been thinking in those terms up to this point. Syrian special forces have used chemical weapons against the Black-African population of Darfur. The action in which dozens of people died. That is a fairly weighty accusation. Since the UN seems hamstrung as soon as the word "Muslim" is uttered in connection with crimes, what possible repercussions could there be, if it does turn out to be true? |
| Posted by: jules 187 2004-09-14 3:49:38 PM |
| #21 A bit too dead maybe ;-) |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-09-14 3:44:23 PM |
| #20 put Gehlen on the case |
| Posted by: lex 2004-09-14 3:43:17 PM |
| #19 Yes, Bundesnachrichtendienst, the German CIA so to speak |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-09-14 3:39:15 PM |
| #18 BND = German Federal Intelligence, no? |
| Posted by: Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 3:38:03 PM |
| #17 BND = ? |
| Posted by: lex 2004-09-14 3:36:12 PM |
| #16 just to point out, even if above turns out to be true, these are NOT necessarily Iraqi CW, as Syria had its own program. |
| Posted by: Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 3:35:36 PM |
| #15 "Western Intelligence Sources" in Die WELT is usually the BND, and this is not an accidental leak. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-09-14 3:33:53 PM |
| #14 The BND generally is too small to do the whole world the way the US services do, but what they do, when they do a job, is usually superlative work. So if this is coming from the BND, then pay attention. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2004-09-14 3:31:20 PM |
| #13 OS, Let's consider giving Syria to the Kurds as the blue water access for Kurdistan. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2004-09-14 3:31:06 PM |
| #12 DisclaimerMy opinions here are merely conjecture informed by a little bit of open research, and some years of known that region and being an analyst - and a current analytical mindset that covers the civilian job I now do. I bet a lot of you wonder why hasn't the US Government come out and said as much as I have? If the US has anything on this, its probably from sensitive "sources and methods", so they cannot disclose it without destroying vital sources of info. My bet it is that they do have solid data, but are precluded from revealing it because they want to act on it eventually. As in take out the chemical weapons and their depots, or capture it in a coup de main. To do so, they cannot reveal what they know, because that would shut off their sources. Remember, Syria is a Baathist police state, and has large terror organizations embedded there. Those types are quite ruthless in weeding out traitors, so even the merest hint of somone being a leak, or something being vulnerable to US technical capabilities, would trigger a response that would likely destroy the utility of the intelligence source. As an example, look at Osama Bin Laden and his use of Sat-phones. We used to be able to intercept his sat phone, and listen in on his calls. But a story broke in the Boston Globe (lefty newspaper kills us again) about this, so Bin Laden and his staff stopped using them - we were at least partially (if not mostly) blinded from late 1999 to what Al Qaueda's command staff was up to. So loose lips may not sink ships, but they damned well can eventually cause towers to fall. A second Bush administration will likely be the one to move on Syria, but this time, learning from Iraq, the first objective will be to secure the WMD as proof, probably with indigneous local forces, who would be reinforced by Rangers and the Airborne - the "rescued" overland by forces from Iraq. They would form an "occupation zone", leaving the rest of Syria alone, except for Aerial attacks on military infrastructure. Basically we woudl take only the areas needed to secure and destroy the WMD - leaving the rest of Syria to rot, rather then be stuck occupying it. That leaves the police state there shown as impotent, and will likely cause Syria to devolve into chaos unless the central government comes around to the side of the light and gets outside help from the West.. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2004-09-14 3:27:46 PM |
| #11 Sam, I'm drinking a shot of Bushmills to you tonight. If this ends up on drudge and doesn't get shot down, it's going to be impossible to wipe the smile off my face. And I can't wait to see the faces of a few choice "where-are-the-WMD" lefties around town. |
| Posted by: jules 187 2004-09-14 3:02:48 PM |
| #10 Syria does have its own chemical weapons, so the Iraqi ones would blend in... I suppose there are many baby milk factories in the mountains but no cows. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-09-14 3:00:15 PM |
| #9 "But...but we TOLD them to get their dirty ol' missiles 'n' bio weapons outta here..." |
| Posted by: Khartoum 2004-09-14 2:59:25 PM |
| #8 Now where did I say the WMD went? The mountians in the western part of Syria. Very convenient, very isolated, and tightly controlled. Look for the Syrian "Secret Police" installations in that area. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2004-09-14 2:57:43 PM |
| #7 President Bush, screw the election. Take Syria down now, not later. |
| Posted by: Atropanthe 2004-09-14 2:55:23 PM |
| #6 I just sent this to Drudge |
| Posted by: Yosemite Sam 2004-09-14 2:44:59 PM |
| #5 From this site: http://www.harpazo.net/archives/2004/April2004.html Sudan Orders Syria to Remove Weapons Sudan has ordered the removal of Syrian missiles and weapons of mass destruction out of the African country. Arab diplomatic and Sudanese government sources said the regime of Sudanese President Omar Bashir has ordered that Syria remove its Scud C and Scud D medium-range ballistic missiles as well as components for chemical weapons stored in warehouses in Khartoum. The sources said the Sudanese demand was issued after the Defense Ministry and Interior Ministry confirmed a report published earlier this month that Syria has been secretly flying Scud-class missiles and WMD components to Khartoum. The sources said the Bashir regime has been alarmed over the prospect that the United States would discover the Syrian arsenal and conclude that Damascus and Khartoum were cooperating in the area of missiles and WMD. They said this would have delayed or dashed U.S. plans to lift sanctions from Sudan. A U.S. official confirmed the Syrian missile shipments to Sudan, saying they were meant for use against rebels in the south. But the official said the U.S. intelligence community has not determined that Syria sent WMD systems to Khartoum. |
| Posted by: RN 2004-09-14 2:40:51 PM |
| #4 I am surprised Powell didn't raise this on Sunday when he was on the talk shows. It was clear from the one I saw that he is personally invested in the Sudan situation. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2004-09-14 2:40:14 PM |
| #3 Wasn't there a story a while ago about the Sudan asking Syria to get its chemical weapons out of town? |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-09-14 2:34:13 PM |
| #2 Do we need another reason to turn Syria and Baby ASSad into a smoking hole in the ground? |
| Posted by: anymouse 2004-09-14 2:31:23 PM |
| #1 There you have it folks: The Iraqi WMD, sneaked out to Syria by Saddam, is further transhipped to the South of Sudan. |
| Posted by: RN 2004-09-14 2:26:58 PM |