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| Russia |
| Report: $900M [Russian] Arms Deal [with China] Is Close |
| 2004-08-21 |
| Moscow Times By Lyuba Pronina China, the country's No. 1 arms customer, is close to signing a contract for air defense systems worth as much as $900 million, Vedomosti reported Thursday, citing sources familiar with the deal. State arms dealer Rosoboronexport and the Chinese Defense Ministry initialed a contract for the delivery of between four and eight batteries of S-300PMU air defense systems a few weeks ago, Vedomosti reported. The contract will be signed by the end of the year, one source told the paper. The manufacturer of the S-300 system, Almaz-Antei Air Defense Concern, refused to comment Thursday, as did Rosoboronexport. Domestic arms producers and exporters are particularly tight-lipped about deals with China following a bilateral agreement that makes military and technical cooperation classified information. With S-300 systems retailing for roughly over $100 million per battery, four to eight batteries would be worth $400 million to more than $800 million, said Konstantin Makiyenko, deputy head of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies in Moscow. China already has 12 batteries of S-300 systems, Makiyenko said. It acquired eight batteries in the 1990s. Earlier this year, Russia completed the delivery of four more batteries, Interfax reported. "While the existing S-300 batteries cover the key administrative and industrial centers of Beijing and Shanghai, the new systems will cover areas that face Taiwan," Makiyenko said. At the same time, China will continue purchasing Sukhoi fighter jets, he said. Last year China reportedly received 19 Su-30MKK fighters and is expected to receive 24 naval Su-30s on a contract from last year. It has been reported that a new deal for a similar number of fighters is in the works and is expected to be finalized with China soon. "I estimate that China will need a further 150 fighters, which they could either buy or manufacture under a Russian license," Makiyenko said. Sukhoi fighter jets are the country's best selling arms product. Some 150 Su-30s and 70 MiG-29s are likely to be exported by the end of 2010, Ruslan Pukhov, editor of the Moscow Defense Brief, said on Thursday. Forty-eight Su-30s may be delivered to China, up to 24 to Vietnam, 24 to Indonesia, 24 to Brazil and 10 to India, he said, adding that MiGs would most likely be acquired by countries in Africa and the Middle East. Here's the link to a Russian webpage about the system, also known by the NATO designation, SA-10d 'Grumble'. A more coherent description is available from this site. An S-300PMU-1 firing battery can comprise up to forty-eight 48N6 missiles on twelve self-propelled 5P85S 8x8 transporter-erector-launcher vehicles (TELs), each TEL carrying four missiles in sealed canisters. An alternative to the 5P85S TEL is the 5P85T launcher-trailer, which is towed by the KRAZ-260 truck-tractor. Launch data and initial guidance for the missiles is provided by a 36N85 (export designation 30N6E1) vehicle-mounted engagement radar, which has three scanning modes for engaging aircraft at ranges between 3—5km and 150km, and for engaging ballistic missiles to a maximum range of 40km. The 36N85 engagement radar can guide up to twelve 48N6 surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) to simultaneously engage up to six different targets. The engagement radar can also be mounted on the 40V6 extendable tower, for improved tracking of low-flying cruise missiles or aircraft. Additional equipment for the battery may include a survey vehicle to prepare the launch site and vehicles to transport additional missiles. Deployment time for an S-300PMU-1 battery is said to be five minutes. If someone more familair with this TMD (Theater Missile Defense) system knows of its Western equivalent and our current countermeasures, please post it here. It's difficult to understand how Russia thinks that these Chinese purchases will not come back to haunt them. I'm sure they need the almost $1 billion in hard currency, but arming their most aggressive neighbor with advanced weapon systems doesn't make a lot of sense. Then again, the Russians aren't necessarily famous for making lots of sense. |
| Posted by:Zenster |
| #20 Thank you for the update, OldSpook. I figured that the phased array radar and target acquisition system were the big new bells and whistles for this TMD. |
| Posted by: Zenster 2004-08-21 11:31:54 PM |
| #19 As a friend of mine once said "Ooooh Loookeee, More Targets!" |
| Posted by: Valentine 2004-08-21 10:42:10 PM |
| #18 Bascially an SA-10 extended range with a better phased array (planar) radar system, and better electronics. Its still not as good as the stuff the RUssians keep at home, but its a big step up from some of the older SA-2 based system the Chinese have deployed. Basically its a theater defense missle system, for stopping Cruise missles and SRBMs that dont get going too fast on the inbound phase of flight, as well as high level penetrator bombers. Big difference here for the Chinese is that its probably the first system they have ever had that was designed form the beginnign to interconnect with other systems, similar and dissimilar, whether local or in the next air defense zone boundary. This is a big step up for them. Its about like the US PATRIOT missle was in the late 1980's. Given that most of our aircraft date back to that time, this could be a problem in a China vs Taiwan contest. They will likely be deployed to defend major C3I HQ, Naval airfields and some naval bases. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2004-08-21 6:16:07 PM |
| #17 Rex is trapped in his racial and tribal conception of history, whereas conflicts throughout history have traditionally involved religious, ideological and territorial issues. I'm not trapped in anything. I am reciting to you one of the "reasons" that our enemies will join forces against us. Using color as a reason for unlikely groups to band together may not seem logical or consistent but then again you are not a Chinese communist nor an Arabic Islamofascist, who grasp at any reason to hate capitalists/infidels, whom they perceive to be of white European origin. Color is one of the stock and trade "weapons" that groups use to define their victimology propoganda and which sets them apart from the "oppressor" and joins them to fellow "oppressed" types. Of course, it makes no semse but it works when needed. As we have seen vis-a-vis gang wars in American neighborhoods, blacks and Hispanics are often lethal rivals on the streets, but when it suits them to claim victim status in our society, they will stand together as down-trodden brethern against whitey. So puhleaze get off your civilized high horse and think like an illogical Islamofascist communist person for a change. |
| Posted by: rex 2004-08-21 1:15:54 PM |
| #16 rex: Brown, yellow, whatever the color it's not white ergo brotherhood. Rex needs to get out more often. If skin color had anything to do with any kind of solidarity, some of the most devastating wars around wouldn't have occurred among people of the same skin color. Roughly 40m people died in Europe during WWII. 20m are estimated to have died in East Asia. The vast majority in each theater were of the same skin color, fighting or being killed by people of the same skin color. If skin color was the primary determinant of solidarity, why are Arabs helping Chechens (who look like your average Central European) fight the Russians? And what is it about brown-skinned Arab Muslims attacking brown-skinned black Christians and Muslims in the Sudan? And brown-skinned Nigerian Muslims attacking brown-skinned Nigerian Christians? Just where is the solidarity? Rex is trapped in his racial and tribal conception of history, whereas conflicts throughout history have traditionally involved religious, ideological and territorial issues. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-08-21 11:44:30 AM |
| #15 That's some moat. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2004-08-21 8:00:04 AM |
| #14 The Russians just wanted free tickets... |
| Posted by: .com 2004-08-21 3:57:31 AM |
| #13 Gosh, you mean Islam's longstanding reputation for thuggery and mayhem might come back to take a pound or two of hamburger out of their right cheek? Stop ... stop, you're ripping my heart out! Oh, the humanity! |
| Posted by: Zenster 2004-08-21 3:31:38 AM |
| #12 Islam will be in for a big surprise if Muslim terrorists ever try to pull a 9-11 style atrocity on Chinese soil It would be a pity if Islam were erroneously blamed for an unfortunate "eventuality" that occurred in China. |
| Posted by: rex 2004-08-21 3:24:39 AM |
| #11 Islam will be in for a big surprise if Muslim terrorists ever try to pull a 9-11 style atrocity on Chinese soil. The politburo would not hesitate to glass over a Middle East country in response. All this "people of color" brotherhood nonsense would vanish in a |
| Posted by: Zenster 2004-08-21 3:03:34 AM |
| #10 Also, though China may not have tolerance for Islamic high-jinx within its own borders, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." |
| Posted by: rex 2004-08-21 2:55:22 AM |
| #9 Brown, yellow, whatever the color it's not white ergo brotherhood. |
| Posted by: rex 2004-08-21 2:50:58 AM |
| #8 rex: China is less likely to provoke Islamic hatred because of the brown skinned brotherhood of the down trodden. Thing is - the Chinese don't actually have brown skins. Neither do hundreds of millions of Muslims. The Muslims are playing nice with the Chinese because they're afraid of them, and because the Chinese are supplying them with ballistic missiles and nukes on the sly, through North Korea. Even so, it's a balancing act - many of the Muslim states on China's borders have hosted Uighur guerrillas who infiltrate back across the border. The reality, though, is that China's Muslim guerrillas are typically Caucasoid in appearance - since Uighurs are basically Turks - so terrorists stick out like a sore thumb among a pretty racially homogeneous population. Combine this with the fact that China executes separatists just for voicing their opinions, and you have the reason why China doesn't have a terrorist problem. Repression works, if combined with sufficient willpower - note that Saddam had no problem keeping his job for over 30 years. And it's got nothing to do with rex's imagined brown solidarity (given that the Chinese are yellow, not brown, in appearance). |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-08-21 2:44:19 AM |
| #7 http://www.gateway2russia.com/st/art_144395.php 23 September 2003 21:14 A Chinese `Invasion` Russia's latest census has produced a bombshell result: over the past decade, the Chinese have emerged as the fastest growing ethnic minority in Russia. While official data of the October 2002 census will be published only next month, preliminary figures leaked to the press show that Russia's Chinese population has grown from just over 5,000 in the late 1980s to 3.26 million today. I think the whole of the Russian Far East has less than 7 million Russians. |
| Posted by: ed 2004-08-21 2:29:43 AM |
| #6 Won't this sale piss the French off? |
| Posted by: Super Hose 2004-08-21 2:27:45 AM |
| #5 China is worrisome for several reasons. Its dependence on fossil fuel energy is growing at an alarming pace. Its growing population and the lack of reverence for individual human life makes for a formidable enemy if we were ever to become enemy combatants. China is less likely to provoke Islamic hatred because of the brown skinned brotherhood of the down trodden. China could do alot of damage to us if it plays its cards right with the Arabs. |
| Posted by: rex 2004-08-21 2:26:54 AM |
| #4 Lol, CH, what isn't China eyeballin'? |
| Posted by: .com 2004-08-21 2:22:47 AM |
| #3 China is also eyeing all that oil in Siberia. |
| Posted by: crazyhorse 2004-08-21 2:13:16 AM |
| #2 The Russians are digging their own grave. Unfortunately, Russia won't go into the cold ground alone. It will also be a mass burial for Taiwan, Japan, Korea, the Philippines ... |
| Posted by: Zenster 2004-08-21 2:04:55 AM |
| #1 Zenster: It’s difficult to understand how Russia thinks that these Chinese purchases will not come back to haunt them. They're pulling the same kind of stunt they pulled with Nazi Germany over 60 years ago - even prior to the Soviet-Nazi peace pact (known as the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact), the Soviets were providing the Nazis with equipment that they used to attack Western Europe. The problem here is that China isn't Germany - it's got six times the population of Russia, and a rapidly growing economy that has already outstripped Russia's. The Russians are digging their own grave. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-08-21 1:36:52 AM |