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| Afghanistan/South Asia |
| Part 2 of interview with Hamid Gul |
| 2004-02-15 |
| Continuing on from Part 1 Retired Lieutenant General Hamid Gul, former head of Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence directorate, tells Contributing Editor Sheela Bhatt that the only reason Pakistan does not dismember India is because "we never wanted to create problems with our Muslim population in India." A startling interview that gives a glimpse of the Pakistani mindset, something that will confront Indian diplomats as they begin peace talks in Islamabad on Sunday. What are your views on reports indicting Pakistan for nuclear proliferation? Why should Pakistan be apologetic about it? Nuke proliferation started because of the US and Russia who have been distributing nuke technologies to their favourites. Israel is a undeclared nuclear power. Whether Pakistan has proliferated or not is not an issue at all. The important question is does a small country like Pakistan having bad experiences with India and three wars have right to possess nuclear weapons or not? The cause of war still exists over Kashmir. And we have not signed the proliferation treaty. How can you justify nuclear proliferation? Why are the Americans then distributing it to Israel? I fear the Americans will demand the joint custody of Pakistani nuclear assets. Or they may say that Pakistan will have to roll back. Even America is not afraid of the Pakistani bomb. It is Israel that is afraid of Pakistani nuclear weapons. But President Musharraf has sided with America. (Interrupting) Under duress. I don’t think his heart is in it. He has the same genes which I have. He was my student, he was my subordinate in the Pakistan army. We have served together. How can he be pro-America? Is Musharraf anti-Indian as some people claim? If you put aside Kashmir no Pakistani is anti-India. We like peace with India but not without settling Kashmir. Kashmir is Musharraf’s only problem. What is the bigger issue? The American threat or Kashmir? You can’t put it like that. We have to fight the American threats together. But it is not possible to surrender Kashmir to fight America together. But India and Pakistan’s case is different. America is already on Pakistani soil. It doesn’t matter. America is our bank account!! Just one uprising (against the American presence in Pakistan) and things will change. We are not afraid of the Americans, they can’t fight on the ground. We are only concerned about their high-altitude bombers. India and Pakistan must find a solution to their high-altitude bombers. Why are you anti-India? I am not anti-India. I am against the imperial streak in the Indian psyche. The 1947 riots had a deep impact on my mind. The Indians always lean towards imperial powers. Look at your special relationship with Jews. And now you are with America. Jinnah was right when he invited Ambedkar to join Pakistan. About 5% to 6% Brahmins dominate India. Where are the lower classes? How do you define your own ideology? I am an Islamist. Islam is the final destiny of mankind. Islam is moderate, Islam is progressive. Islam is everything that man needs. It is not necessary to become a Muslim but it is necessary to adopt the principles of Islam. Naseem Azavi and Iqbal’s writings have influenced my thinking. What will be the minimum demand from Pakistan to India over Kashmir? Musharraf is saying he expects the Chenab line to be accepted by India. Many Pakistanis might go with him but would Kashmiris agree with them? Also, our discomfort over the leaks of proliferation must not ease India. Dr (A Q) Khan is our hero. Nobody can dare touch him. If India has a problem with Pakistan why don’t you give Kashmir to Kashmiris? Indians have a deep-rooted prejudice against Pakistanis. Not one Indian intellectual is ready to say that let Kashmiris have freedom. As ISI chief you have observed India. Do you still feel India can give their land to Pakistan? India will. India will give its land when it will be divided into many pieces. India will have to break. If India does not give us our land we will go to war and divide India. This time America helped India. When you were ISI chief you were closely monitoring India
(interrupts) We never wanted to create problems with our Muslim population in India. Otherwise, believe me, India is so fragile. India has such weak joints that if we want we could strike these weak joints then India will dismember. But we don’t want India to break. Weak joints? India is ridden with problems. I am not talking about Muslims. There are many other weak joints. Indians have strong fissiparous tendencies, which is absent in Pakistan. One can easily exploit it politically. Because of Indian Muslims it is not in our interest to break India. So he wants India to join Pakistan in confronting America, but only after India gives up Kashmir. If they don’t, Pakistan will invade and divide India, except they won’t because they want the Muslim minority to be protected. I see know how Gul as earned his reputation as one of the foremost strategic Islamist thinkers. |
| Posted by:Paul Moloney |
| #13 Dr (A Q) Khan is our hero. Nobody can dare touch him. Wrong about that too- poor fella. |
| Posted by: B 2004-2-16 8:09:20 AM |
| #12 Dunno what Hamid's ethnicity is, but yeah, isn't Gul pashto for flower/petal or somesuch thing? Not really very macho is it - hasn't the poor man heard of deed polls? Re: Turabi - Sic transit gloria mundi! I almost feel sorry for him, it can't be very nice to have your protege & your (supposedly) tame dictator gang up on you like that. IIRC even his former Islamist friends have turned on him for not being mad enough, a tragic end for the guy Janes once described as the 'Philosopher Prince' of militant Islam - get a goblet pleeze! |
| Posted by: Dave 2004-2-15 6:08:28 PM |
| #11 Yes! That's it SteveS.... now I've got an evil ear-worm. If I had only a little ambition.... rewriting the lyics from the al-Gilbert & Suleiman POV would shake the world. LOL |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-2-15 5:28:50 PM |
| #10 He went to Khartoum and with Turabi, bin Laden and Zawahiri he had a little rape party on some captured Khafir women and boys. |
| Posted by: JFM 2004-2-15 1:57:59 PM |
| #9 Shipman, perhaps you are thinking of the al-Gilbert and Suleiman song that starts out "I am the very model of a modern ISI Lieutenant General"? |
| Posted by: SteveS 2004-2-15 1:57:50 PM |
| #8 Dave, excellent analysis. India did have serious fissiparous tendencies, by no longer. In the 1980s the Punjab seemed headed for seccession (ever see a "Free Khalistan" bumber sticker?), but it is now at peace. Earlier, when India was pushing Hindi as a common national language, the entire south was restive. But then India settled on English (much to the country's economic benefit), and that issue ended. Today its just the northeast fringe (Nagaland, Manipur, etc.), that remains trouble, but no big deal. Gul evidently hasn't noticed the change. With a name like Gul, I assume that he is Pashtun -- is he? |
| Posted by: closet neo-con 2004-2-15 1:51:51 PM |
| #7 Islam is moderate, Islam is progressive. Islam is everything that man needs Sounds like the lyrics of a forgotten Gilbert & Sullivan piece. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-2-15 8:38:03 AM |
| #6 Gul was a welcome visitor to the Second Popular Arab and Islamic Conference held in Khartoum in December 1993. There he melded with PAIC founder Hasan al-Turabi, and other Islamist visitors including Bin Laden and Zawahiri. In sum, he has been, and remains, a dangerous jihadist. |
| Posted by: Tancred 2004-2-15 7:32:18 AM |
| #5 Dave's right! The guy is a phantasist. And eriely reminiscent of Marxist/socialist phantasies. |
| Posted by: phil_b 2004-2-15 5:47:35 AM |
| #4 Whether Pakistan has proliferated or not is not an issue at all Maybe when Iran has nukes & you realise they aren't all aimed at Israel it may become more of an issue... We are not afraid of the Americans, they can’t fight on the ground. Except in Afghanistan, Iraq, Korea... About 5% to 6% Brahmins dominate India. Where are the lower classes? Let's see, India's had a dalit President (K.R. Narayanan) & it's current President's a Muslim & low caste politicos have run Uttar Pradesh & Bihar recently (Mulayam Singh Yadav's still Chief Minister of UP.) Doesn't Pakistan still have a wee problem with the influence wielded by the old feudal classes BTW? India will have to break. Just like we broke when we lost Bangladesh & when we had the uprising in Balochistan... despite all that there are no centrifugal tendencies in Pakistan - perish the thought! |
| Posted by: Dave 2004-2-15 3:59:01 AM |
| #3 will no one rid us of this islamist dwarf air burglar--we need black ops -- a car bomb or armed pakistani donkey with rpgs--i'm sure many midget houris and pearl-like youths are waiting for him in paradise-- puhleeze give him an early checkin!! |
| Posted by: SON OF TOLUI 2004-2-15 3:17:46 AM |
| #2 Indians have strong fissiparous tendencies, which is absent in Pakistan Fissiparous: Reproducing by fission. Fission: Biol. The divison of an organism into new organisms as a process of reproduction. Fission: Physics The splitting of the nucleus of an atom into nuclei of lighter atoms, accompanied by the release of energy. Fissirostral: Having a broad, deeply cleft beak or bill, as the swallows and goatsuckers. |
| Posted by: Mike Sylwester 2004-2-15 12:52:48 AM |
| #1 Gul is a Muttahida-Majlis-e-Amal agent, who wants Paki nukes to be put under the control of jihadis. |
| Posted by: Anonymous 2004-2-15 12:11:25 AM |