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Europe
France criticised by 22 of Europe’s elder statesmen
2003-11-14
Twenty-two of Europe’s wise men, from ex-prime ministers to Nobel prize winners, have denounced France’s insistence on secularising the European Union and establishing a strict separation between Church and state. In an essay in yesterday’s Le Monde, the elder statesmen said in Europe, Christianity was "at the root of the fundamental notion of the individual".
Conveniently leaving out where Christians got the idea.
They said Christianity had a paradoxical history, as it both created the European conscience and caused wars. The role of religion had been debated throughout centuries of intellectual and scientific advance, but had ultimately always come down to a choice for individuals and their consciences, they added.
Not quite what Jacques and Valery had in mind.
The authors included former presidents Richard Weizsaecker of Germany, Mario Soares of Portugal and Arpad Goncz of Hungary.
Big hitters.
The remarks were directed both at the authors of the new EU constitution, which contains no reference to Christianity, and at France, where President Jacques Chirac is considering a new law to reinforce the secularism of national institutions. "Everything we see today shows the limits of a narrowly ’secularist’ vision in European societies," the essay said. "The end of ideological oppression and the rise of various forms of fundamentalism lead to a better understanding of reality."
Wonder who they aimed that at?
Posted by:Steve White

#5  


Don't let the ACLU and others transform America from a secular country into an intolerant atheistic country.


Now a few stories about France's secularity:

When De Gaulle was President and travelling in a foreign country the program set by the foreign country included a mass. Mme De Gaulle was to lift to take the communion and De Gaulle made her sit telling "We cannot do so. France is a secular country". In other words, two devout Catholics were not free to commulgate.


Before WWI, the Combes cabinet constituted files about religious practice between officers.


After WWI, the governement was not as agressive in religious matters, however General Gamelin owed his nomination as chief of staff to his atheism and the protection of Daladier, an influential atheistic politician. Gamelin was the chief of staff in 1940, he was the guy who ignored the potential of Armored Divisions and who had left the Sedan region unprotected thus allowing the Germans to surround the main body of the French Army. Paul Reynaud, the Prime Minister, had tried to fire him before the German attack but had to drop the idea due to the opposition of Daladier .

Posted by: JFM   2003-11-14 3:40:08 PM  

#4  La France is a Muslim Nation, why the surprise?
Posted by: Greg   2003-11-14 11:30:34 AM  

#3  from y understanding of French and european history JFM is more on the mark than Super. Historically the European left wanted the govt to proactively secularize civil society - far beyond the wall of seperation idea - for reasons that go to the historic linkage of the church with rightist regimes, the left wanted to actively ban PRIVATE Catholic schooling, not just cut off state funding. There is NOTHING like that in the US, largely cause of our historic legacy of relative (if not always quite absolute) seperation.
Posted by: liberalhawk   2003-11-14 9:36:38 AM  

#2  JFM,

The US Constitution called for no establishment of a national religion, because the forefathers saw the danger of having government using God's name for oppression - many of them felt that Anglican chruch was flawed in theis way.

For example, prior to the revolution there was a famous court case in Virgina where Patrick Henry defended local farmers that had been charged with not paying tithes to the Church. The court protcted the right of the Church to effectively collect taxes from the local populace regardless of local economic conditions.

Within the last several years the atheist crowd has used the separation of chirch and state idea that is drawn from a letter that Jefferson wrote.

The current use of this letter by the ACLU and others closely matches what is happeneing in France. The end result is that many parents are opting out of public education.
Posted by: Super Hose   2003-11-14 8:47:16 AM  

#1  Secularity in France is different than in the USA: in France it was made by atheists against the Churchs (mainly the Catholic one but there also measures against the Protestants and Jews) were while in the USA it was made by believers except all of them were not of the same obedience and they didn't want a state favoring or prosecuting people for their religion.


In France governement forceibly closed lots of confessional schools and replaced them with state schools aimed at manufacturing good atheists.


In the US oathes are pronounced on the Bible

Posted by: JFM   2003-11-14 1:07:36 AM  

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