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| Caucasus |
| 9 Killed in Chechnya Festivities |
| 2003-11-08 |
| Attacks by Chechen insurgents left nine Russian soldiers and policemen dead, an official in the Chechen administration said Thursday. Four soldiers were killed and nine others wounded in 18 rebel attacks on military outposts during the last 24 hours, the official said on condition of anonymity. Two rebels and one serviceman died and five others were wounded in a clash near the village of Avtury, he said. In the capital, Grozny, two policemen were killed in attacks on police patrols and a Russian sapper died while trying to defuse a mine, the official said. Another policeman died and three were wounded when their car hit a mine near Alkhan-Kala. During most of the four-year Chechen war, Russian forces have pounded rebel outposts with air and artillery while suffering daily casualties from ambushes and mines. President Vladimir Putin defended Russia’s actions Thursday at a Rome summit with European Union leaders. Russia has been criticized for refusing to seek negotiations with the rebels and for widespread allegations of atrocities by Russian soldiers, Putin stressed his long-standing claim that global leaders apply a double standard to Moscow’s attempts to drive out the rebels, denouncing terrorists in one part of the world but failing to do so in Chechnya. He’s kind of got a point there ... The Kremlin asserts it is stabilizing Chechnya through political means, including last month’s election of a Chechen president. But the republic suffers not only from fighting, but from crumbling infrastructure and rampant lawlessness. Is it a Quagmire(R) for Putin then? |
| Posted by:Dan Darling |
| #10 Or MOABS. MOABS might be good. 8-) |
| Posted by: .com (RoPMA) 2003-11-8 8:18:29 PM |
| #9 nukes it is, then |
| Posted by: Frank G 2003-11-8 5:56:29 PM |
| #8 "Prevarication and nit-picking and endless moral equivocating, ala Aris' absurd view of morality, just gets people, good regular life-loving people, very fucking dead." Yes. Then again destroying Grozny and torturing and raping civilians also gets people, good regular life-loving people very fucking dead. Is there any particular reason that *any* of you thinks that Putin has shown *any* restraint in his handling the Chechens? Regardless of whether you call them terrorists or insurgents or whatever? The only thing he hasn't done so far in Chechenya is nuke it. http://www.chechnya-mfa.info/print_news.php?func=detail&par=52 http://www.chechnya-mfa.info/print_news.php?func=detail&par=71 http://www.chechnya-mfa.info/print_news.php?func=detail&par=86 http://www.chechnya-mfa.info/print_news.php?func=detail&par=84 |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2003-11-8 4:38:48 PM |
| #7 .com, I also think GW knows it. I hope so. Take for an example, Al Pacino's "Attica, Attica" rant in 'Straw Dogs'(?). It was one of the most significant scenes in cinema that I've ever seen. The "moralistic baggage" he was calling for to mask the facts and to create a public sympathy for himself hit me like a 2x4 accross the side of my head, smack! If you've seen that movie, Al's side kick and cousin, a dim bulb but sympathetic character, follows along with Al's scheme gets wacked. Way to go Al. The look on Al's face at the end of the movie clearly shows that he 'gets it'. Attica wasn't Waco, Ruby Ridge, or the Elian Gonzales fiasco. Attica was heavey handed justice. But it was justice. That's the reason the "Attica" rant was so 'out there'. Today we have moralists shouting "Attica Attica" while they send morons to kill us. Heavey handed justice is called for. I also think that Putin understands that, after Checnya, it wouldn't end there. If it wasn't Islamists I could sympathize with them. But clearly Islamist are the enemy in this war. So Mr Putin, whack away. |
| Posted by: Lucky 2003-11-8 12:21:58 PM |
| #6 jh - tanks, er, I mean tanx! ;-> |
| Posted by: .com (RoPMA) 2003-11-8 11:37:19 AM |
| #5 .com - righteous anger bro! Good post. |
| Posted by: Jarhead 2003-11-8 10:58:05 AM |
| #4 I say bomb the shits. |
| Posted by: Kenneth 2003-11-8 10:34:09 AM |
| #3 I'm gonna get shot for this, but... I think the US and Russia are headed for the same realization: you can't exempt the "moderates" who allow themselves to be used by the "fanatics" - in the end, they are one and the same and equally complicit. Today's moderate provides cover, support, and trainees for tomorrow's jihadi. Is it a hostage situation? Is it really? That's the real question, isn't it? I believe the WoT will end up at the "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" nexus. It's only a matter of time. Dubya prolly knows this and is playing PR until the case for pre-emption is made for him by asshat actions. If not, a bitch of a wake-up call is coming. For example, if we hesitate too long with the Black Hats, Israel will cease to exist. It won't be rational - hatred never is - but it will have been preventable with pre-emptive action. And we will know it. Regrets aren't worth warm spit. The fine after-action legalistic questions of morality argued in front of the World BlameBody Court will be just another scene in the farce - and it will be worth even less. Is that too far-fetched? Sorry, bro, no offense intended, but that's the crux of the biscuit, IMO. Okay, here goes: I've worked my way throught the morality arguments and this is where I've ended up - cuz we are the only ones actually concerned with morality in conflict. World "opinion" and "press" reactions prove to me, time and again, that you will be damned, regardless, by the pussies and weaklings of the world who would be far more vicious were they the ones wielding such power. And their damnation isn't worth warm spit - it's meaningless ankle-biting jealousy. Prevarication and nit-picking and endless moral equivocating, ala Aris' absurd view of morality, just gets people, good regular life-loving people, very fucking dead. My conclusion: you must proceed as fast as your own conscience allows - or just a little faster cuz people are dying while you're fiddling, ignore those who try to add their baggage or use your own civility against you, achieve your goals to rid the world of threats, and tell everybody to fuck off. If we don't have the cajones for the task, the shitheads win. And I don't care much for that epitaph. If I were in charge... Fuck the Caliphate. Fuck the ankle-biters. Fuck the second-guessers. Fuck the moralists. They'll have the luxury of debating and pissing on my grave afterwards because I dismissed them beforehand. |
| Posted by: .com (RoPMA) 2003-11-8 10:16:41 AM |
| #2 When have you heard GWB or the US Gov't tell Russia to play nice with the Chechen rebels? We have said, IIRC, that the civilian populace needs to be treated humanely, and that's still true, there or Iraq. We understand the difficulty of a rebel force that melts in and out of the civilians (boy, do we!)....I'm hoping the sending back of the Marines indicates a tougher stand by us in Iraq, and we should keep out of Chechnya's handling - ever since the Moscow theater incident, chechen rebels aren't so "heroic" |
| Posted by: Frank G 2003-11-8 8:50:04 AM |
| #1 The more I learn about Chechnya and the Chechen Izzoid terrorists the more I wonder: When will Russia get truly medieval on their asses? I have few doubts about there ever being anything like peace. Even if given independence, I would expect they would then just fire it up again in Dagistan, etc. as this would be capitulation in their eyes. I am perplexed by Dubya's apparent coolness on this obvious example of Izzoid terror. Bargaining chip? I'd donate my share in the MOAB inventory to the Russkies. Someday, probably after Putin (if he isn't declared Prez For Life), we should find ourselves in a pretty close relationship with Russia. There are a helluvalot of common interests with them, particularly in commerce. Someday. |
| Posted by: .com (RoPMA) 2003-11-8 2:28:32 AM |