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2009-03-22 Home Front: WoT

The Region: Democracy promotion in the Middle East: Good idea, wrong place and time

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Posted by Fred 2009-03-22 00:00|| || Front Page|| [16 views ] Top

#1 Democracy succeeds not because of liberty and freedom, which are side effects, but because it is more efficient than other systems, from the simple to the complex.

Even illiterate peasants grasp that it is a better way of doing things. From the moment they say "let's vote on it!", the die is cast. It's obvious that this is better than just obeying somebody who likely knows little more than you do.

Posted by Anonymoose 2009-03-22 00:46|| 2009-03-22 00:46|| Front Page Top

#2 A true realist regarding mideast policy would have insisted on building a nuclear plants in the US decades ago. Those nations would be as poor and forgotten as Africa without oil revenues.

Posted by rjschwarz 2009-03-22 01:29|| 2009-03-22 01:29|| Front Page Top

#3 A transparent litany of why liberals are desperate for the Iraq democratic experiment to fail.

And any one who uses Lebanon as an example of the general case, and thinks the route to liberal democracy goes via religous freedom is a fool (IMHO of course).

Posted by phil_b 2009-03-22 03:41|| 2009-03-22 03:41|| Front Page Top

#4 tl;dr

Posted by badanov 2009-03-22 05:48|| http://www.freefirezone.org]">[http://www.freefirezone.org] 2009-03-22 05:48|| Front Page Top

#5 Excellent Fred, thanks. In the pious rush to fix everyone else's fences and round up their stray cattle, we've let our own fall into disrepair and with devastating outcomes. With the exception of Israel, it is time we get out of these middle eastern and Afican entanglements and find our own farm. Lead by example and deeds, not by righteous proclamations and political interference.

Posted by Besoeker 2009-03-22 06:28|| 2009-03-22 06:28|| Front Page Top

#6 Classic.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2009-03-22 08:07|| 2009-03-22 08:07|| Front Page Top

#7 thanks Fred, a wonderful summation of the regional guvmints for a neophyte like myself.

Posted by Broadhead6 2009-03-22 11:26|| 2009-03-22 11:26|| Front Page Top

#8 the parts that are in an unordered list aren't highlighted as Fred's other bits are in my browser.

i'd suggest using tables with bg=fredscolor, whatever it is, to fix this, but I'm not sure it's compliant with the current version of html, even if it works.

Posted by Thing From Snowy Mountain 2009-03-22 12:50|| 2009-03-22 12:50|| Front Page Top

#9 And any one who uses Lebanon as an example of the general case, and thinks the route to liberal democracy goes via religous freedom is a fool (IMHO of course).

Without freedom in general imho you're not making a democracy, you're just building air traffic control towers out of bamboo and waiting for the planes to bring in the cargo.

Posted by Thing From Snowy Mountain 2009-03-22 12:54|| 2009-03-22 12:54|| Front Page Top

#10 Democracy is against Islamic mores. It's only ever been "tried" in one country and Ataturk was probably not a Muslim. This is what he said about the religion:
"through the abusive interpretation of ignorant and filthy priests......Islam, this absurd theology of an immoral Bedouin, is a rotting corpse which poisons our lives"
To have a "democracy" (whatever that means, The US for instance is not literally a democracy, it's a Republic) you need a legislature which can initiate and pass laws. Muslims already have a fully developed and perfect law, according to them, sharia. Because of this attitude, I've always had a jaundiced view about the concept of "democracy" in Iraq, or anywhere else in the Muslim world.

Posted by tipper 2009-03-22 14:03|| 2009-03-22 14:03|| Front Page Top

#11 If Fred and Steve would write a book, I'd buy it. And read it, too!

Posted by Bobby 2009-03-22 18:29|| 2009-03-22 18:29|| Front Page Top

#12 Disappointing of Rubin. He raises the wildly inaccurate perceptions and descriptions of US/Bush policy in the ME but doesn't correct them.

Repeat after me, Mr. Rubin: knocking off a dangerous regime sometimes is deemed neccessary, what degree of democracy follows is a separate issue; knocking off a dangerous regime sometimes is deemed neccessary, what degree of democracy follows is a separate issue .....

For the last time (I promise): we didn't nuke Japanese cities to give Japanese women the vote and create a more pluralistic civil society in Japan, but those were direct consequences of expended uranium and plutonium.

Rubin's a good and smart guy, but to me any discussion (such as his) that is built on the cartoon caricatures of actual policies and wildly inaccurate terms of art he uses is unreadable and worthless.

One final bugaboo: at one point in history it may be "realistic" to back a brutal sleazy dictatorship, while a short time later it may be "realistic" to back plucky reformers against such a dictatorship, or even go in and annihilate it yourself. VDH and others indulge in some very very rare (for them) moral confusion and analytical sloppness when the condemn past US policy in the ME.

It's not rocket science. Backing Iraq against Iran in the early 1980s (i.e. doing very little but making sure Iraq doesn't lose) = obvious correct policy (incl. Rummy's handshake photo). Invading Iraq in 2003 and annihilating the regime we didn't want to be defeated by Iran in the early 1980s = obvious correct policy. No contradiction whatsoever.

Posted by Verlaine 2009-03-22 20:09|| 2009-03-22 20:09|| Front Page Top

#13 Why, Valerian, could you be advancing the theory that as situations changes, responses should also change? Shocking!

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2009-03-22 20:46|| 2009-03-22 20:46|| Front Page Top

#14 PAKISTANI DEFENCE FORUM > THE WAR ON TERROR IS NOT ABOUT THE THREAT OF ISLAMOFASCISM [ Mainstream/Ordinary Americas are the covert real enemy, NOT the Radicalists].

Posted by JosephMendiola 2009-03-22 21:27|| 2009-03-22 21:27|| Front Page Top

23:06 Barbara Skolaut
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22:58 Chuck Simmins
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22:23 Trader_DFW
22:09 Rambler in Virginia
21:32 JosephMendiola
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21:15 Frank G
20:57 trailing wife
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20:17 phil_b
20:09 Verlaine
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19:49 Last Breath Farm Resident