Article

2006-11-01 India-Pakistan

Gunships kill 80 at religious school --continued from 10/30

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Posted by tipper 2006-11-01 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The Pakis have night-flying gunships? I think NOT.

Posted by Brett 2006-10-30 11:16|| 2006-10-30 11:16|| Front Page Top

#2 Brett, I don't see where it says that the strike took place at night.

Posted by Jonathan">Jonathan 2006-10-30 11:19|| 2006-10-30 11:19|| Front Page Top

#3 I believe we handed eight upgraded Hueys to them in the past several years. I expect that these choppers have some night vision capability, since it's probably kind of risky to operate them in mountainous areas during the day.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2006-10-30 11:31|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2006-10-30 11:31|| Front Page Top

#4 Our info says those killed were AQ militants.

Their local leaders insisted most of the dead were teenage students, many of whom were reduced to bits and piece.

I fail to see any discrepancy in those two descriptions.

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2006-10-30 11:42|| 2006-10-30 11:42|| Front Page Top

#5 Any time a Madrassa is reduced to ruins and the occupants are reduced to bits and pieces is fine with me.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2006-10-30 11:46|| 2006-10-30 11:46|| Front Page Top

#6 ...protests erupted against the Pakistani Government and its ally the US.

Is there anything that can't be blamed on us?

Posted by Raj 2006-10-30 12:07|| 2006-10-30 12:07|| Front Page Top

#7 It's interesting how "hits" in Pakistan are used very judiciously, just for the most important targets. This again makes me suspect that the US is backing Perv using gradualism to make him stronger than his multitude of enemies.

Maybe in a month or so, suddenly the Pak military will be rewarded with some new toys for pulling off this raid and taking some PR heat.

Posted by Anonymoose 2006-10-30 12:13|| 2006-10-30 12:13|| Front Page Top

#8 Don't think of 'em as "killed, think of it as "promoted to paradise ahead of schedule."

Posted by mojo">mojo 2006-10-30 12:21|| 2006-10-30 12:21|| Front Page Top

#9 Local leaders, however, insisted most of the dead were teenage students

Geez..what's the difference?

Posted by anymouse">anymouse 2006-10-30 12:46|| 2006-10-30 12:46|| Front Page Top

#10 'moose, while your claim of "gradualism" is appealing, it is hard to regard this latest bit of festivities as anything more than window dressing. This sort of gradual process does not overcome the rate of replacement in Pakistan. Only when we are killing more jihadis than they can manufacture will there be any progress.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-30 13:06|| 2006-10-30 13:06|| Front Page Top

#11 I find issue with quite a few comments made here.
For Zenster's comment... you would have to commit mass genocide to come close, and even then you'll be creating more enemies (does "protect your family" or "avenge your family" ring a bell?)
Also, this is the first time I have been here, so i'm not immediately assuming the rest of you don't know what you're talking about, but the vast majority of muslims are moderate, or at least not advocates of terrorism.
Also, let me point out that a madrassa is meant to be nothing more than a religious school. I admit that most of the madrassas you hear about in the news are led by militant mullas with brainwashed followers, but don't automatically generalize madrassas, or even muslims for that matter. To assign terrorist attributes to every muslim stinks of racism.

Posted by Hedniskhjartad 2006-10-30 13:47|| 2006-10-30 13:47|| Front Page Top

#12 Hang around, Hedniskhjartad, and participate in this debate. There are some, myself included, who have come to view the moderate Muslim (aka. Muzzy) as something of a mythical creature.

I've offered a few "rants" - that's what this venue is about, just to confirm the obvious - myself on this topic. Rantburg, I think it is fair to say, is split on the topic.

If you stick around and make your points - and allow others to make theirs (i.e. Muslims are not a "race") then we may come to a meeting of the minds. If you are unable to do that, then thank you for your contribution.

Posted by .com 2006-10-30 13:59|| 2006-10-30 13:59|| Front Page Top

#13 I admit that most of the madrassas you hear about in the news are led by militant mullas with brainwashed followers, but don't automatically generalize madrassas...

Ummmmmmmm...okay.
I'll leave that up to you.

Posted by tu3031 2006-10-30 14:01|| 2006-10-30 14:01|| Front Page Top

#14 Welcome, Hedniskhjartad! We're always glad to have new voices join the conversation. However, in order to better judge your contribution and the source of your distress, it would be helpful to know a little bit about your background and experience. Not enough to raise the curtain on your anonymity, but so that we know whether you speak from knowledge or through your hat, as this site is intended as an analytical endeavor [with really great snark -- stop fussing, guys, I admit it!]. To start the ball rolling, and because all the old hands know this about me anyway, I am a little, civilian, Midwestern housewife/soccermom [yes, yes, Frank G.! -- sorry, he always starts snorting about this point], whose husband has been travelling round the world for a Fortune 500 consumer products company since 1985, and who took me and the trailing daughters over to live in Europe for a number of years... hence the trailing wife moniker. Your turn, my dear.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-10-30 14:09|| 2006-10-30 14:09|| Front Page Top

#15 Also, let me point out that a madrassa is meant to be nothing more than a religious school. I admit that most of the madrassas you hear about in the news are led by militant mullas with brainwashed followers, but don't automatically generalize madrassas, or even muslims for that matter. To assign terrorist attributes to every muslim stinks of racism.

Pretty quick with the racism accusation, aren't you, bub? I'm not a believer in the "kill all Muslims" philosophy. On the other hand, this site's been around long enough to recognize the fact that the closer you are to Bajaur, the higher the likelihood that a "madrassah" is either a recruiting center or a training camp for decidedly un-moderate Muslims.

By the way, Islam is not a race, it's a religion. Furthermore the Pashtuns infesting Bajaur and the Wazoos are quite Caucasian, thank you, more so, in fact, than the Punjabis, whom Arthur Wellesly described as "black as my hat."

Posted by Fred 2006-10-30 14:22|| 2006-10-30 14:22|| Front Page Top

#16 "Gunships kill 80 at ~~religious school~~ terrorist training base"

Fixed it.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-10-30 14:39|| 2006-10-30 14:39|| Front Page Top

#17 For Zenster's comment... you would have to commit mass genocide to come close, and even then you'll be creating more enemies (does "protect your family" or "avenge your family" ring a bell?)

Fine then. Let's please hear your ideas regarding this intractable problem, Hedniskhjartad. I welcome any effective solutions you may have to suggest. Pakistan is the nexus of mass indoctrination for global terrorism. Saudi Arabia supplies the academic staff, but Pakistan's madrassahs are the business end of producing jihadist terrorists.

Your argument smacks of the saying that, "killing terrorists only creates more terrorists". I'm hoping you might take the time to differentiate your stance from this commonly stated position, if there is any actual difference. Also, you posted:

To assign terrorist attributes to every muslim stinks of racism.

Dismissing, for the nonce, the fact that Muslims are not a race, where have "terrorist attributes" been assigned to all Muslims? My post strictly referred to jihadis.

As to killing jihadis, all other methodologies are ineffective. Persuasion, negotiation, relocation, rehabilitation (called 'catch & release' around here), all have proven to be useless in deterring terrorism. If you doubt this, just ask Israel.

A dead jihadi does not commit terrorist acts. A dead jihadi is a strong message to other wannabes that serious reconsideration of their intended career path may be advisable. Dead jihadis are a clear message to radical Muslim clergy that they, too, are on the target list. Finally, only a program of summarily executing top leadership in the global community of jihadist Muslim clerics will have any sort of cost-effective results. The Muftis, imams and clerics are the ones who infect vulnerable minds with this psychotic meme and turn them loose to ravage this world. The sooner they pay with their lives for poisoning the well in this fashion, the sooner there will be some sort of abatement or a partial end to much of this terrorist violence.

Islam's only hope for surviving radical jihadism is the emergence of equally radical reformers who are willing to take back their creed by force. Western countries have no obligation to delicately harrow through the Muslim ummah in search of those actual terrorists who hide or are willingly concealed therein. If Islam cannot begin to clean its own house, it will more than likely face an eventual purge imposed by outside forces that will be catastrophic in nature. Such an event is merely an inevitable matter of survival for the West.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-30 14:51|| 2006-10-30 14:51|| Front Page Top

#18 Here we have company and youse guys are being rude.

See, tw? See how I try to turn over a new leaf? I try to escape the acrimony, be inclusive, touchy-feely? I try so hard. I try to get out - and they drag me back in...

/Godfather III

Posted by .com 2006-10-30 14:57|| 2006-10-30 14:57|| Front Page Top

#19 Hey! I said, "please".

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-30 15:13|| 2006-10-30 15:13|| Front Page Top

#20 Welcome, Hedniskhjartad. Me, I'm a civil engineer and smartmouth, no relevant experience claimed. I do remember the Vietnam War quite well.

It must have been 20 years ago I read about madrassas preaching hate in The Reader's Digest. The Reader's Digest, for heavens sake!

I do occasionally point out that uniformly pidgeonholing a large group certainly overlooks a few good apples in the barrel. I lived in Morocco for six months and thought the people were delightful.

I am on the side of the Iraqi people, as expressed by their elected government, even though it's frustrating to watch.....

Posted by Bobby 2006-10-30 16:06|| 2006-10-30 16:06|| Front Page Top

#21 No "please" from me. I don't like it when they show up and on their very first day on the job drop trou and whip out the "racism" baloney.

Posted by Fred 2006-10-30 16:08|| 2006-10-30 16:08|| Front Page Top

#22 Johnathan, I read on billroggio.com that the strike was at 0500.

Posted by Brett 2006-10-30 16:15|| 2006-10-30 16:15|| Front Page Top

#23 Zenster: gradualism applies to politics, not war. That is, when we first engaged Perv, he was as weak as a kitten politically, with his government controlling only part of his country, his army and ISI full of Islamists and militarily inferior, his government filled with Islamists who wanted his job and stood in his way in passing laws.

So if we backed him and he went against his opponents in a linear fashion, he would lose and lose big, and the situation would be much worse from our point of view.

So instead, we have guided him with gradualism to push against one enemy for a while until he gets something, then move on to a different enemy and do the same. Every time he gets a little more power, and his army and ISI get a little more loyal and better equipped.

Eventually, instead of pushing a little bit, he will be able to crush some of his weaker enemies for good. Eventually, he will rule over his entire country, and anyone who stands against him will know that they have no chance.

There will be no Islamists in his parliament who can stand in his way in controlling the madrassas, in dominating the Wazoos and Baluchistan, even though they will still protest.

Finally then will we see the protective enclaves for the Taliban and al-Qaeda not only eliminated but nowhere in the entire country will they be able to set up shop again.

But, and I agree with, damn it, it takes a hell of a long time.

Posted by Anonymoose 2006-10-30 16:21|| 2006-10-30 16:21|| Front Page Top

#24 'moose, this is much akin to your excellent bar fight analogy. I just happen to feel that the situation is far more urgent, whereby it does not allow us any luxury of the lengthy and gradual approach you mention. I'm not arguing its effectiveness, I just question whether it will happen in time enough. Especially considering just how complicit Musharraf has proven in condoning terrorism.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-30 16:36|| 2006-10-30 16:36|| Front Page Top

#25 By the way, Islam is not a race, it's a religion. Furthermore the Pashtuns infesting Bajaur and the Wazoos are quite Caucasian, thank you, more so, in fact, than the Punjabis, whom Arthur Wellesly described as "black as my hat."

It's possibly the Pakistani way of keeping the "wogs" (of whatever race) down. "Why don't you go do your religious duty and get blown up by American gunships?"

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2006-10-30 16:47|| 2006-10-30 16:47|| Front Page Top

#26 Considering that the median age of all males in Pakistan is 19.7 years, I'm not very sympathetic that this target included "teenage students". Both teenagers and students can be quite dangerous.

Posted by Darrell 2006-10-30 16:54|| 2006-10-30 16:54|| Front Page Top

#27 Hello H welcome to the club. I don't have much credential I am 40 something Independent Christian redneck and like I tell everybody here when you can tell me the difference between a moderate and extremist Muslim with 100 percent accuracy we can talk about saving them.

Posted by djohn66 2006-10-30 17:05|| 2006-10-30 17:05|| Front Page Top

#28 "the vast majority of muslims are moderate, or at least not advocates of terrorism."

If you took 1 out of 10 Muslims and assumed they were "radical" - meaning the overwhelming majority is moderate (9 out of 10) - you would still have 190 million radical muslims.

All together they would be the 5th largest country in the world.

As large as Brazil, more than 2X the population of Germany, or 3X the population of Iran.

In other words, wake the fug up!

Posted by Digital Patriot 2006-10-30 17:26|| 2006-10-30 17:26|| Front Page Top

#29 Kurdistan, Tunisia, Morocco. Parts of Jordan. Parts of Leb. Parts of Kuwait, most of Abu Dhabi and Dubai, large parts of Bahrain. Secular Turkey. Even parts of Karachi and Lahore.

Prior to the advent of Khomeini, Iran was a civilized country that was Muslim.

There are two main streams of Islamicism: Shia, run out of Qom; and Wahhabi, run out of Soddy Arabia. The Wahhabi version is relatively insular, but when combined with Qutbism and large amounts of money it becomes dangerous.

Takfir wal Hijra is kind of the epitome of Wahhabism, in which anyone who doesn't adhere to their interpretation of Islam is an apostate and must be killed. The Deobandi version of Islamicism in Pakland is an imitation of and an ally of the Takfiri philosophy. Maulana Mahdoodi, known as the Great Apostasizer, was the mover and shaker in that area.

Sunni Islam without Takfir wal Hijra and/or Qutbism is mere self-destructive primitivism. See, for instance, the level of culture prevalent in the NWFP or in the remoter parts of Yemen.

The "moderate Muslim" is one who doesn't abrogate to himself the "right" to kill people who don't agree with him. The personal right to murder is the dividing line between the moderate and the enemy.

Posted by Fred 2006-10-30 17:35|| 2006-10-30 17:35|| Front Page Top

#30 Fred, wouldn't you say it's not a "right" but more of a "duty" in Takfirism? And if'n you are not able to perform the duty then you are obligated to assist the others who can...

Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious 2006-10-30 17:42|| 2006-10-30 17:42|| Front Page Top

#31 Also, this is the first time I have been here, so i'm not immediately assuming the rest of you don't know what you're talking about, but the vast majority of muslims are moderate, or at least not advocates of terrorism.

This is a joke, right? Who's running this sock puppet?

If it's really a person behind that, you've got a lot to learn. The majority of Muslims object to terrorism about as much as Marines object to strip clubs. Spend about as much money in support of the idea, too.

Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford 2006-10-30 17:49|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2006-10-30 17:49|| Front Page Top

#32 Re Fred's #29, I'm sitting here wondering if that twenty-something Muzzy guy in Baltimore, apparently moderate, but not "assimilated", were to be faced by some "takfiri" dude and told he was being called up to the Big Leagues - to kill infidels, to right the wrongs of infidel aggression in Islamic Lands, to take the Great Satan down a notch for supporting, nay elevating Israel from a small country of Jooo monkeys to a nuclear power, to prove his worth, his piety, his dedication to Allah and his servant Mohammed -- would he tell him to piss off?

I'm thinking no. He'd slowly (or rapidly) warm to his importance - and do what the fuck he was told to do. I'm thinking this happens regularly, all over the world, every day. That the London bombers were just such tools, for example, awaiting their activation. Allahu Snackbar!

Sheesh, color me unconvinced there are actually moderates - just a resource pool which the jihadis use, as needed.

Posted by .com 2006-10-30 17:58|| 2006-10-30 17:58|| Front Page Top

#33 overly idealistic college kid. Takes his name from a death metal band and talks of being moderate. Na he's just tryin get a rise out of us. Hang round a while kid, ya just might learn something.

strip clubs!!! There ya go Rob, derail the whole thread.LOL

Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan 2006-10-30 18:03|| 2006-10-30 18:03|| Front Page Top

#34
strip clubs!!! There ya go Rob, derail the whole thread.LOL

There's a problem with the analogy?

Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford 2006-10-30 18:09|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2006-10-30 18:09|| Front Page Top

#35 Nope, now I'm just thinking of the good ol days at Ricks on Haye street.

Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan 2006-10-30 18:13|| 2006-10-30 18:13|| Front Page Top

#36 Strip clubs? But the Club Juanna is closed!

Posted by Bobby 2006-10-30 18:14|| 2006-10-30 18:14|| Front Page Top

#37 The Club Juana closed? I remember going there back in 1982 when I was in Nuke school.

Posted by Penguin 2006-10-30 19:28|| 2006-10-30 19:28|| Front Page Top

#38 See, tw? See how I try to turn over a new leaf? I try to escape the acrimony, be inclusive, touchy-feely? I try so hard. I try to get out - and they drag me back in...

Your poor leaf must be thoroughly dizzy by now, .com dear. I overreact when what seem to me to be unnecessary fights break out between those who are on the same side. I can't say I see any of that here, fwiw.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-10-30 19:40|| 2006-10-30 19:40|| Front Page Top

#39 Sheesh, tw. I was funnin.

Posted by .com 2006-10-30 19:56|| 2006-10-30 19:56|| Front Page Top

#40 Our new visitor posts from the environs of Saginaw, Michigan.

Posted by Pappy 2006-10-30 22:12|| 2006-10-30 22:12|| Front Page Top

#41 If you took 1 out of 10 Muslims and assumed they were "radical" - meaning the overwhelming majority is moderate (9 out of 10) - you would still have 190 million radical muslims.

All together they would be the 5th largest country in the world.

As large as Brazil, more than 2X the population of Germany, or 3X the population of Iran.

This is the bottom line. Some knowledgeable estimates place the jihadist population as equal to that of The United States. However distributed this threat might be, it remains a significant challenge to whatever resources the West currently offers in opposition. Add in the triangulation of Russia, China or France, not to mention many other ostensible allies and the odds become nothing less than daunting.

I'm thinking no. He'd slowly (or rapidly) warm to his importance - and do what the fuck he was told to do. I'm thinking this happens regularly, all over the world, every day. That the London bombers were just such tools, for example, awaiting their activation. Allahu Snackbar!

Sheesh, color me unconvinced there are actually moderates - just a resource pool which the jihadis use, as needed.

And therein lies the rub. How to distinguish between true moderates and merely unactivated jihadis or jihadist supporters. So far as I can tell, there is no way.

I realize that out in the world, somewhere, there are still "live and let live" Muslims. I'd love to think that our fight is not with them. The problem starts with the Thundering Silence of nearly all Islam when it comes to vigorously condemning terrorist atrocities. That these moderate Muslims remain so silent makes it almost impossible to distinguish them from the radicals.

More than anything, the effort required to do so far exceeds any availble resources or even the necessary desire. Nor can the West possibly be faulted for this either. We are, quite simply, not obliged to sort these thugs and wannabes out from the noise floor of offended Muslim sensibilities.

For yet another time, I must give you thanks, .com, for having elucidated so clearly about the ambiguous role that much of this world's moderate Muslim population plays. Australia's pseudo-moderate, Taj al-Hilali, has crystallized this dilemma all too well. Unactivated or activated? Dessert topping or floor wax? Who's to know and how can we possibly tell?

Lastly, this is why I now demand that Islam foment its own brand of novel and savior radical, the Radical Reformist. If the Qar'an is to be anything more than a bibliographic artifact within another decade or two, these radical reformers had better start stacking dead jihadis like cordwood.

Barring that, I predict a nuclear Muslim holocaust. Not because the West wants to, but only because it will have no other choice.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-30 23:32|| 2006-10-30 23:32|| Front Page Top

#42 I don't like it when they show up and on their very first day on the job drop trou and whip out the "racism" baloney.

But it works so well in the muslim social circles, as well as any other that likes to maintain cohesiveness by coming up with some villain like racists that is oppressing them. Heaven forbid that it might be an internal problem.

Posted by gorb 2006-10-30 23:48|| 2006-10-30 23:48|| Front Page Top

#43 Whoa... I'll try to answer every question or argument that was asked of me.
Well, I am a student in Michigan of international status. I am from Karachi, Pakistan.

I am Pakhtoon (atleast, my dad is Pashtu, but I don't know the language and customs

enough to be called one myself). Also, I've been a moderate Muslim all my life,

although recently I have come to question all forms of religion.
I take back that racism statement. I just can't think of a better word, so let me

explain. Many people are of the opinion that all Muslims are extremist and/or

sympathetic to Osama's twisted cause. To tell you the truth, in all the twenty years I

lived in Pakistan, I have never come across one such person. (But then, my social

group did not include mullahs or their disciples, so I do admit that there are many

such people there.) All I meant to say is that all Muslims should not be generalized

as such.

Also, I have been to a madrassa when I was young. It is in our culture to read the

Koran at least once when you are a child, and I was never taught to hate the west.

Recently, there has been an uprising of such beliefs, but then again, there are many

religious schools that stay away from politics. Again, all i'm saying about this is

that the belief that all madrassas teach and breed hatred of the west is false.

djohn wants to know the difference between a moderate muslim and an extremist muslim.

The difference is this: a moderate Muslim is one such as my parents. They pray five

times a day, recite the Koran every morning, yet they wish no ill will against

anybody. As with any other religious text, there are many interpretations of the

Koran. There are those that interpret the Koran to further their power and control

over people. To kill children, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers is NOT something

Islam teaches. Yet, many mullahs do preach that all infidels must be killed. Those are

extremists. It is these Mullahs that advocate sectarian violence between the Shias and

the Sunnis. Divide and rule...
Very simplistic argument, but if this doesn't do the job, i'll try to explain in

further depth. (Remember though, that I am not a religious person armed with tons of

sources. I know these things because I have lived them and know them to be true.

However, if any of you want further verification, I will try to provide verses and/or

any other thing that furthers my argument.)

And for 49 Pan, just because I take my name from a death metal band (which it is not, it's an album from a blackmetal band), i immediately lose all credibility? Also, as for the "overly idealistic college kid" part, now that you know a bit more about my background, you might not think of me as the typical college kid. Some people have been welcoming and have asked me to clarify my opinion, and I will continue to do so as long as it does not turn into a mudslinging contest.

Posted by Hedniskhjartad 2006-10-30 23:48|| 2006-10-30 23:48|| Front Page Top

#44 I find issue with quite a few comments made here.

Heh. Get in line (it's a short one don't worry).

Posted by NWFP Assembly 2006-10-30 23:54|| 2006-10-30 23:54|| Front Page Top

#45 Fred: Can you forward this thread to tomorrow?

Posted by gorb 2006-10-30 23:59|| 2006-10-30 23:59|| Front Page Top

#46 Thread continued from 10/30 at gorb's request. Don't make me regret it!

Let's all start with a nice group hug...

Welcome to Rantburg, Hedni.

Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious 2006-10-31 00:23|| 2006-10-31 00:23|| Front Page Top

#47 Hedniskhjartad:

Don't take these guys negative comments too seriously. They've been around long enough that their idea of a good time is to insult each other half the time. There is a lot of shorthand here that you won't get, either. Believe me when I say they all want to learn. Some are more opinionated than others, but at least pretty much all of them will listen to you. And yes, they are aware that the majority of muslims are not terrorists! They don't talk about them much except in social contexts. They are focused on the terrorists for the most part, the rest can take care of themselves.

What they don't like about "moderates" is their Deafening Silence on speaking out against terrorists in a very public way. It seems they are using their religion as cover in case the terrorists seem to have the upper hand. Muslim extremism should be an internal matter for all muslims to take care of, not sit idly by and waving while the terrorists go about their evil business. The terrorists it seems are defining the religion, not the majority. Its shallow, self-serving, and pathetic. It's also self-destructive, when the whole matter could be rolled up internally.

Also, the model for what is going on is very shallow. A few people who want power are fabricating a "jihad" against the west, filling people's minds with crap about how we're against them, and sending them out to kill and get killed in waves. This hate is being nurtured and used as a tool to accomplish gaining power through evil means. Where are the minds of the people who are being brainwashed? Why aren't more moderates clamoring for this crap to go away? If I knew my neighbor was a terrorist, I would turn him in to the authorities immediately. And I speak out against violent extremism often. All this creating excuses for jihad and killing and power-grabbing and setting up institutions to propagate this crap is so obvious, why is it that these muslim extremist morons put up with it? Don't they see what they are getting themselves into? What would come next if Western society were to disappear? They would turn on themselves in a big way. Even bigger than what you hear about in the news all the time. The denial of the human sexual nature, male dominance, excuses for criminal behavior, female circumcision, and a whole long list of other evil stuff will dominate in the end and even moderates would rue the day they didn't speak up in a meaningful way against this crap when the had a chance.

That's my take on things, anyway. The rest here have forgotten more than I will ever know and can supply detail. But I think these are some of the core problems they have with the way Islam seems to be structured and is reacting to all of today's events.

Posted by gorb 2006-10-31 00:37|| 2006-10-31 00:37|| Front Page Top

#48 Hedni,
Last year Rantburg carried the story of an Indian Muslim who was killed in Iraq while serving in the US Marine Corps (you are probably aware that US citizenship is not a requirement for service in the US armed forces. I was not a citizen when I joined the US Army in 1969, for example.)

Several thousand people turned out for the young man's funeral in his home village and the local iman declared that "he died a martyr, fighting against terrorism." I think most of us here are aware of stories like this.

According to the western media, however, the entire Muslim world is against us. They never give any credence to reports of moderate Muslims or to the occasional fundamentalist who takes our side (as some do). To the media, this is a message of defeat, an effort to intimidate loyalist forces with the universality of the opposition. This is an old pattern in the institutional media, evident in the Vietnam war when they pretended that all Vietnamese opposed our efforts, and in Nicaragua where they asserted that all of "the people" loved the communists. This propaganda line, designed to make us question our own cause, can have consequences that its instigators do not want. It is intended to make our fight appear hopeless and delusional, but those who do not accept this inference can be turned against the whole Muslim world when it is represented as being united against us.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2006-10-31 00:39|| 2006-10-31 00:39|| Front Page Top

#49 Thanks, Seafarious!

Posted by gorb 2006-10-31 00:41|| 2006-10-31 00:41|| Front Page Top

#50 It is also significant that the Hezbollah affiliated terrorist front CAIR has been designated by the big media as the unofficial spokesman for American Muslims. Their chief shill, one Ibrahim Hooper, is all over the major media every time an issue involving Islam comes along.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2006-10-31 00:46|| 2006-10-31 00:46|| Front Page Top

#51 I'll be inclined to believe in (and tolerate) the Mythical Moderate Moslem when, in majority- AND minority-Moslem countries:

- there is a mass-movement to denounce and thwart jidahism

- there is a mass-movement to denounce and thwart female submission

- there is a mass-movement to denounce and thwart: apostasy laws, hudood laws, and dhimmitude

- there is a mass-movement to separate Islam from politics (all state affairs)

- there is a mass-movement to support freedom of conscience and speech

- there is a mass-movement to support the unconditional right of Israel to exist within its borders

Until then, I remain convinced by all evidence and the Koran that Islam is a mass-murderous death cult.

Go ahead, Hedni, let us know what evidence there is to support the notion of dominant Moderate Moslems promoting an Islamist Reformation, if not the adoption of Enlightenment values.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2006-10-31 00:58|| 2006-10-31 00:58|| Front Page Top

#52 Housekeeping note: I'm sending this thread to the Opinion page to keep Page One from being eaten alive by the comments.

Just this once you may bring your drinks in from the O Club, but you'll need to put them in plastic cups first.

Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious 2006-10-31 01:03|| 2006-10-31 01:03|| Front Page Top

#53 I guess what Kalle would like to see before he allows Islam to continue to exist is something like a "Live and let live", "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" attitude. And if Islam is such a great religion, well then everybody will join it willingly and that would be fine.

Something like that? Or am I projecting again? :-)

Posted by gorb 2006-10-31 01:05|| 2006-10-31 01:05|| Front Page Top

#54 Re # 52 - so what are Democrats, Kalle? [snicker]

Posted by Bobby 2006-10-31 07:16|| 2006-10-31 07:16|| Front Page Top

#55 Who's the FNB moron?

Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford 2006-10-31 07:45|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2006-10-31 07:45|| Front Page Top

#56 One of the Toronto crowd.

Posted by lotp 2006-10-31 09:10|| 2006-10-31 09:10|| Front Page Top

#57 Hedniskhjartad, I have moderate muslim acquaintances. I agree that there are plenty of muslims who simply want to live quiet, pious lives, raise their families and go about their business peacefully.

I also agree with others here that the nature and vehemence of extremist acts and statements call for public rebukes from moderates. Whether they are rooted in old tribal customs or the product of skewed reading of the Islamic tradition, if those extremist acts and statements are indeed outside the Islamic tradition then Muslims need to say so, publicly and often.

Because unfortunately many things being said and done in the name of Islam are wretched, horrible and hatefilled. Revenge rapes in Pakistan, for instance. The justification of rape just made by the Mufti of Australia, comparing women who are not veiled to "meat" properly devoured by animals.

"Sons of pigs and monkeys" applied to Jews, Christians, anyone who is not in their sect. Calls to impose a Caliphate by force on the world, to impose Sharia on non-Muslims .....

These are unaceptable and more than unacceptable. They are open threats that can and ARE acted upon, with increasing frequency. And they are being done in the name of Islam.

I do not envy the moderate Muslims who simply want to get on with their lives. The sooner we put an end to the Islamacist extremism, the sooner that can happen.

I've said it here before: it is quite conceivable that in 10 years time, moderate muslims will find that the US is by far the country most open to them. Failure to speak up, to push back against the extremists, makes it increasingly likely that the latter will dominate the law and practice in Muslim-majority countries and will ensure a growing anger against all Muslims, since those acts are being done in the name of Islam.

Posted by lotp 2006-10-31 09:18|| 2006-10-31 09:18|| Front Page Top

#58 Or in 10 years the US Constitution will outlaw islam and war, real and proxy, will shrink islam's bloody borders.

Posted by ed 2006-10-31 10:02|| 2006-10-31 10:02|| Front Page Top

#59 I could be wrong, but the reason moderates don't speak out and apologize may be the same reason Christians won't apologize for Fred Phelps. They don't consider the extremists as part of them. That would explain not apologizing, but they should condemn the extremists more. The thing is though, when they do condemn them, is it newsworthy to the media? There is a young gal missing in Aruba you know....

Posted by Thoth 2006-10-31 10:08|| 2006-10-31 10:08|| Front Page Top

#60 Fred Phelps won't kill your family in front of your eyes for speaking out against him.

As far as I know.

Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious 2006-10-31 10:14|| 2006-10-31 10:14|| Front Page Top

#61 When the US went to war with Nazi Germany, support for pro-Nazi groups, like the German-American Bund, collapsed. After the Sept. 11 atrocities, American muslim support for jihadist causes, conspiracies, and attacks against the US increased. Only financial support for terrorist groups decreased due only to fears of prosecution. The German immigrants were American first. The muslim immigrants are muslim first. Get the difference?

Posted by ed 2006-10-31 10:17|| 2006-10-31 10:17|| Front Page Top

#62 "Finally, only a program of summarily executing top leadership in the global community of jihadist Muslim clerics will have any sort of cost-effective results."

Zenster, Isn't it more of a process rather then a program?

Posted by DepotGuy 2006-10-31 10:22|| 2006-10-31 10:22|| Front Page Top

#63 Hedniskhjartad, can you explain why Muslims want to stay separate in America and European countries ?
Why they build their own schools, demand their own Islamic courts and laws ?
Why not mix as most of the others have mixed ?
'When in Rome, do as the Romans.'

Posted by anon4now 2006-10-31 10:37|| 2006-10-31 10:37|| Front Page Top

#64 I'll be inclined to believe in (and tolerate) the Mythical Moderate Moslem when, in majority- AND minority-Moslem countries:

- there is a mass-movement to denounce and thwart jidahism

- there is a mass-movement to denounce and thwart female submission

- there is a mass-movement to denounce and thwart: apostasy laws, hudood laws, and dhimmitude

- there is a mass-movement to separate Islam from politics (all state affairs)

- there is a mass-movement to support freedom of conscience and speech

- there is a mass-movement to support the unconditional right of Israel to exist within its borders

Until then, I remain convinced by all evidence and the Koran that Islam is a mass-murderous death cult.

Very well said. The litmus test is, what is the PREVAILING opinion of muslim society. You show me the opinion of the average joe in a muslim country, and I'll show you what his religion is really all about.

Yes, there are 'extremists' in every religion, but in the west, and especially in the US, they are a very insignificant minority, the 'lunatic fringe', drowned out by the prevailing opinion of a society that simply wants to live and let live.

If the majority of Pakistani muslims are moderate, as our new guest suggests, then the prevailing opinion in Pakistan would be one of moderation. Such is not the case. If Musharraf wasn't armed to the teeth and had an armada of bodyguards wherever he went, he'd be dead by this afternoon.

Sorry, my dear Pakistani friend, you've hitched your wagon to a decidely immoderate star.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-10-31 11:42|| 2006-10-31 11:42|| Front Page Top

#65 There's something adhering to the bottom of my shoe...

Posted by .com 2006-10-31 12:45|| 2006-10-31 12:45|| Front Page Top

#66 Pew Global Poll 07/14/2005
Pakistan:
Is Islamic extremism a threat?
Yes: 52%, No: 27%

Violence against civilians justified.
Often/Sometimes: 25%, Rarely: 19%, Never: 46%
March 2004:
Often/Sometimes: 41%, Rarely: 8%, Never: 35%

Confidence in Bin Laden.
A lot/Some: 51%, Not much: 11% None: 12%

The ray of hope is that Pakistanis recognize islamic extremism is a threat. Whether they will combat it is open for debate. More at link.

Posted by ed 2006-10-31 13:04|| 2006-10-31 13:04|| Front Page Top

#67 Hedniskhjartad, let's stay on the topic: would you be in favor of positive identification of Madrassas that DO preach hate and violence, AND shutting them down while arresting the teachers and leaders?

Simple question, really. Just say Ptah: yes. or Ptah: no.

However, I suppose with the large number of people making requests of you, I understand you may be a bit pressed to reply...

Posted by Ptah">Ptah 2006-10-31 13:21|| http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]">[http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2006-10-31 13:21|| Front Page Top

#68 Gorb: I don't have an answer for why the rest of the Muslim world is quiet about it. All I have seen sometimes are small awareness drives or such that hardly have any impact on clarifying things. I do know this though: that if I was back in Karachi, I would be silent unless I had a million other people ready to denounce extremism and terrorism. When you have people who are ready to die for their twisted cause, you don't want to put yourself in danger. Pakistan does not have much in the way of local law enforcement; they can be bought, and are bought all the time. As I said, these mullahs have become powerful enough for ordinary people to stay quiet out of fear. I was watching a documentary called "the journalist and the jihadi" on HBO a week ago. They had a Mullah who denounced terrorism. He was killed a week later. But there are millions of Muslims living in western countries, and I have no answer as to why they don't speak up.

anon4now, #66: I think I can try. I don't know much about other religions, but Islam brought with it not just a new belief, but a whole way of life, a whole judicial system, etc. A muslim who follows Islam by the letter finds that Islam dictates each step he makes, or everything he does. Now, girls and women are dictated by Islam to wear headscarves that cover the entire head, and have only their face, hands and feet show. This is very different from the western approach to what a woman may or may not wear. Those muslims you are talking about want to feel safe in an environment lwhere they don't look as outcasts. For a man, Looking at a woman for the second time after a first glance is forbidden, and parents want to protect their children from a "sinful" environment where women might be scantily clad. Since Islam brought about a whole set of criminal punishments and rules, those Muslims believe that God wants them to punish a person exactly that way, and not by any other way. They want to preserve their culture and way of following religion separate because they believe American laws and culture hinders their religion. Now before someone points this out, let me say this: If this culture is unacceptable, they should head back to their original countries and make a conscious change there instead of demanding a mini-Pakistan or a mini-Iraq here.

mcsegeek1, #67: Second last paragraph - The majority of Muslims in Pakistan do not advocate or support terrorism. There is nothing I can say but that I lived there until 5 years ago. But then again, I might be a biased source, lying to you and blindly protecting my country. There are no surveys or polls that I have that would help me prove my point. All I have is first hand experience. But there is one thing: if one party has the guns, you shut up, or die.

Kalle, #52: I never said that Muslims are trying to promote an Islamist Reformation. All I'm saying is that there are terrorists or their supporters, and then there are dumb idiots in millions who are doing nothing about it, myself included (before I started questioning religion).
Denounce and thwart jihadism: The word Jihad carries many meanings, one of them being "holy war". There are ways of conducting that holy war. You do not attack in secret. You do not take your own life. You do not harm women, old men or children. You do not take livestock or crops. You do not harm anyone who does not try to harm you. Also, you need a better reason to start jihad than "the US is the devil". So I think you mean Muslims should denounce and thwart extremist Islam or terrorism. Yep, they should. But let's take an example. In the US, tons of people dress provocatively, behave provocatively (which is fine by me, i'm in college :-D ), etc. Is that to say that Christianity is an immodest religion? Religion says THIS... now people may choose to follow it or interpret it correctly, or they may choose not to, but many a times, judging by the actions of the Muslims, you cannot judge the religion itself.

Ptah: ofcourse! Forget madrassas, anything that preaches hatred and violence should be identified and eradicated.

Did I miss someone?

Posted by Hedniskhjartad 2006-10-31 14:11|| 2006-10-31 14:11|| Front Page Top

#69 FNB: no, I've just been busy sleeping and taking classes. I hate programming!

Posted by Hedniskhjartad 2006-10-31 14:16|| 2006-10-31 14:16|| Front Page Top

#70 Hedniskhjartad, So, if a young Muslim woman wanted to show her beauty and change from Islam to another belief, one that allowed her to show her beauty, how would Islam facilitate her desire ? I'm referring to Islam in America.

Another question; I believe the koran teaches that once land has been Muslim land, it is Muslim land forever. In the US, we have deeds assigning ownership of land to individuals or organizations. These are not in perpituity, but can be bought and sold. How does Islam feel about losing ownership of land ?

Posted by anon4now 2006-10-31 14:31|| 2006-10-31 14:31|| Front Page Top

#71 Lol. Ya just can't wait for good timing, lol, it's either there or it's not.

Posted by .com 2006-10-31 14:37|| 2006-10-31 14:37|| Front Page Top

#72 Enough of this fucking idiot.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2006-10-31 14:42|| 2006-10-31 14:42|| Front Page Top

#73 anon4now, #75: Islam does not allow muslims to change their religion. But many people have converted. My fiancee converted from being muslim to having no religion. I might be on the verge of that also.
Most religions say that they are the only way to salvation. I don't think any religion would facilitate such a change, be it Judaism to Christianity, or Hinduism to Sikhism.

As for your question of Muslim land. I didn't know that Muslims claim such a thing, so I'll give you my pure opinion.
You are talking about buying and selling land as business when you talk about how it's done here in the US. But according to what the Koran says (and i don't know if it says this or not, i'm just extracting this from your question), I think it means Muslim land as in, a nation, a city, a country; and not a house or a few acres of farming land. Just as Americans wouldn't want to lose their land (meaning country, or a state or city), the same way Muslims wouldn't want to either. Houses are bought and sold to Christians and Muslims alike in Pakistan (regardless of previous ownership).
I get the feeling I was slightly ambiguous. Tell me if I was and i'll try to clarify.

Posted by Hedniskhjartad 2006-10-31 14:51|| 2006-10-31 14:51|| Front Page Top

#74 Actually, Rantburg tolerates dissenting opinions quite well. What it doesn't tolerate well is stupidity, but that's the Internet for you.

As for Hedniskhjartad, he seems like an intelligent, articulate, reasonable fellow. I'm interested in hearing more of his views.

Unlike you.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2006-10-31 14:52|| 2006-10-31 14:52|| Front Page Top

#75 Dave - Aw. And he was almost just about ready to actually contribute something to the thread. I could feel it. Right on the cusp thingy.

Posted by .com 2006-10-31 15:15|| 2006-10-31 15:15|| Front Page Top

#76 Let's not start with the "group hugs" thingie now, OK?

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2006-10-31 15:18|| 2006-10-31 15:18|| Front Page Top

#77 Yeah, .com. Let's save the touchy-feely stuff for the evening when everyone can participate.

Posted by Darrell 2006-10-31 15:21|| 2006-10-31 15:21|| Front Page Top

#78 Americans can dish it, but they don't have to take it on their own web sites if they don't want to. Get you own web site, EC7733. Your IP address is about to be blocked.

Posted by Darrell 2006-10-31 15:25|| 2006-10-31 15:25|| Front Page Top

#79 Lol. All I can say, EC, is that content isn't an issue with you, as there isn't any. Truth? What truth? Ugly? Oh, okay, I'll give you ugly. Besides, persistance is what really makes a troll, lol.

Posted by .com 2006-10-31 15:26|| 2006-10-31 15:26|| Front Page Top

#80

Persistent little shit, ain't he?

Posted by Shotch Grererong7752 2006-10-31 15:29|| 2006-10-31 15:29|| Front Page Top

#81 LOL. I love it when you can hear the Pappy or Dave D. boot make contact as the troll goes flying out the door.

Posted by Darrell 2006-10-31 15:31|| 2006-10-31 15:31|| Front Page Top

#82 And, within its own mind, the legend grows, lol.

Posted by .com 2006-10-31 15:31|| 2006-10-31 15:31|| Front Page Top

#83 I'm going to write a "Trolling for Dhimmis" book someday.

Posted by Thoth 2006-10-31 15:38|| 2006-10-31 15:38|| Front Page Top

#84 Hedniskhjartad, thanks for your answers. I was referring to land considered to be Muslim land as in Spain from pre 1492, rather than specific personal ownership. It is interesting that your fiancee converted. I assume that her reasons would be similar to the reasons I believe Islam is backward in it's treatment of women and children.
One of the things that alarms us is the thought that we would lose freedom to a religion which supports slavery if Islam really took over. We also believe Islam will take control of Europe if something radical is not done there soon.
Thanks again.

Posted by anon4now 2006-10-31 16:12|| 2006-10-31 16:12|| Front Page Top

#85 Anon4now: a lot of the instances of actual slavery by Moslems, upon closer examination, involves Moslems holding other Moslems in involuntary servitude.

(Take, for example, those Saudis in Colorado...)

Anyway, I have read in the past that in Islam, all believers are supposed to be considered equal, and that believers aren't supposed to be held as slaves.

(This is one of the reasons why I think the terrorist-supporter types aren't really _that_ devout, but perhaps that's a subject for another day).

I suspect one of the big differences between "Original Islam" and Islamic extremism today is that this is not the case with the latter. Heck, go back far enough, and _everyone_ who practiced Islam was a recent convert, even Mohammed.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2006-10-31 16:40|| 2006-10-31 16:40|| Front Page Top

#86 Hedniskhjartad, you seem like a reasonable fellow, quite unlike some muslims I have met. I appreciate your taking the time to make your views known. We get in a little box here sometimes, and another point of view is always welcome. Thanks also for addressing specifics, rather than ranting incoherently or spouting BDS like some many trolls have on this site.

I do want to elaborate however, on a point you made:

Islam does not allow muslims to change their religion. But many people have converted. My fiancee converted from being muslim to having no religion. I might be on the verge of that also.
Most religions say that they are the only way to salvation. I don't think any religion would facilitate such a change, be it Judaism to Christianity, or Hinduism to Sikhism.

I canot speak for the other religions you mentioned, but as a Christian scholar, I believe I can provide you some insight. Christianity, in the biblical sense, is not a religion, per se, but rather a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. A person is free to walk away from it any time they choose, but they are only breaking fellowship, not relationship. If a person does walk away from it, they may encounter some criticism from fellow believers, or attempts to encourage the 'wayward' back into the fold. However, this only takes the form of rhetoric, not actions. Nobody threatens. Nobody kills. Nobody takes revenge. The God of the Bible can fight his own battles and doesn't need man to do it. ("Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord. I will repay." Hebrews 10:30)

The crux of the problem as I see it, is that Islam has a fatal flaw. That flaw is the specific advocation of violence against the infidel or the unbeliever. Rather than the Christian teaching of 'turn the other cheek' or to take insults against one's faith with 'patience and forgiveness', the teaching is one of wrath and vengeance against the person who dares to slight Islam. This is incompatible with western concepts of freedom of choice. By the way, freedom of choice originated in the Bible, not the west. We adopted the concept.

"Whosoever will may come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17

The Biblical God's attitude toward the unbeliever is an invitation in love to come to him. Not a commandment to kill because he disagrees. In the end, free will is one of the major tenets upon which the Judaeo-Christian ethic stands.

But guess what? If someone wants to insult Christianity, they have every right to do that. It does not, and should not affect my beliefs one whit. Can Islam can drag itself out of the 7th century and say the same thing? I sincerly doubt it. That would be true moderation, and I've seen no evidence for it.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-10-31 17:05|| 2006-10-31 17:05|| Front Page Top

#87 Sounds to me like muslims in general live in fear for their lives from a relatively small goon squad. Of course, in some areas, that goon squad can be pretty pervasive. It sounds like they need some kind of anonymous venue to denounce radicalism in a way that the goons can understand. It would be nice if your average muslim could report suspicious activity anonymously, but not so anonymously that people who were messing with the system couldn't be stymied or eventually found out. It should be something that isn't transferred easily like a cell phone (but maybe if more people had them it would make life better in the end!). I'm sure that these people lead lives that are full or busy, so making it easy to actually turn in the bad guys would be important.

The internet may work well here, but it is impractical in some areas of the world. Where it wouldn't work, you could go around knocking on doors randomly and interview people. The police would have to have authority to go into the houses and stay about five minutes each time so people have time to talk if they want to. That way the bad guys don't know what's going on and would have to leave these people alone or risk alienating their host communities in a way that would matter to them. If people for the most part wanted terrorists to go away, all kinds of info should be available from this kind of system. Impersonators could be a problem with this kind of system, though, and they could try to find out who will talk and who not and kill those who do end up talking, so it may be better to summon people to a central area where impersonation would be impossible, and whether or not a person informed could not be ascertained. And if people had something to volunteer, they could just wander in and be processed in a similar manner to everyone else.

Would this help?

Posted by gorb 2006-10-31 17:44|| 2006-10-31 17:44|| Front Page Top

#88 Hedniskhjartad, I'll open this by saying that you display commendable courage in confronting, here at Rantburg, both the misconstrued and valid issues surrounding Islam.

Again, all i'm saying about this is that the belief that all madrassas teach and breed hatred of the west is false.

The problem being that those madrassahs which do preach jihadist terrorism represent a huge threat to this world, both non-Muslim and Muslim alike. Lacking any system of self-reporting (i.e., Pakistani locals actively identifying these advocates of terrorism), how do you propose that the West sort them out? Due to the tremendous threat of future atrocities, especially a nuclear terrorist attack, we would be more intelligent to throw the baby out with the bathwater than to leave the madrassahs operational.

I'm obliged to wonder if most Muslims truly understand just how dangerous their continued silence and lack of active intervention really is. With sufficient provocation, in the form of repeated atrocities, the West will not hesitate to use nuclear weapons in defending itself against terrorism originating within MME (Muslim Middle East) countries. The potential loss of life is staggering and if Muslims do not understand the possibility for this, then they are delusional. This is why I remain unconvinced as to just how moderate all of these silent Muslims really are. At some point, they must begin to understand that their silence will be construed as consent to violent jihad. A Spanish journalist once said:

"At some point silence is no longer consent. Silence is a lie."

What they don't like about "moderates" is their Deafening Silence on speaking out against terrorists in a very public way. It seems they are using their religion as cover in case the terrorists seem to have the upper hand. Muslim extremism should be an internal matter for all muslims to take care of, not sit idly by and waving while the terrorists go about their evil business. The terrorists it seems are defining the religion, not the majority. Its shallow, self-serving, and pathetic. It's also self-destructive, when the whole matter could be rolled up internally.

Really well put, gorb. This sums up a large number of the central issues all at once. The West is in no way obligated to delicately sort through all Muslims in order to winnow out those few extremists that pose the real threat. In a feat of monumental hubris, Islam has foisted this dirty job upon all non-Muslims with the expectation that we will exercise our usual excessive precaution and humanity in the performance of this onerous and dangerous task.

What this represents is Islam weaponizing our best traits against us. I'm hoping that Hedniskhjartad will address how this abuse of Western sensibilities will most likely result in a threshold being reached where caution and humanity will be dispensed with out of sheer fatigue and wholesale slaughter will begin. Europe is certainly headed towards a repetition of their usual charnel house "Final Solution" with respect to this.

I'll be inclined to believe in (and tolerate) the Mythical Moderate Moslem when, in majority- AND minority-Moslem countries:

- there is a mass-movement to denounce and thwart jidahism

- there is a mass-movement to denounce and thwart female submission

- there is a mass-movement to denounce and thwart: apostasy laws, hudood laws, and dhimmitude

- there is a mass-movement to separate Islam from politics (all state affairs)

- there is a mass-movement to support freedom of conscience and speech

- there is a mass-movement to support the unconditional right of Israel to exist within its borders

Until then, I remain convinced by all evidence and the Koran that Islam is a mass-murderous death cult.

Go ahead, Hedni, let us know what evidence there is to support the notion of dominant Moderate Moslems promoting an Islamist Reformation, if not the adoption of Enlightenment values.

Kalle's post nails a laundry list of nearly all the significant flaws exhibited by Islam. I'm hoping that Hedniskhjartad will address each of the abovementioned points, be it briefly or in detail, and indicate either support or opposition to them.

Additionally, I'd be very interested in hearing Hedniskhjartad's own stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This one issue can instantly define much of the concerns and issues seen to surround Islam.

I could be wrong, but the reason moderates don't speak out and apologize may be the same reason Christians won't apologize for Fred Phelps. They don't consider the extremists as part of them. That would explain not apologizing, but they should condemn the extremists more.

Thoth, the reason is that a twisted sicko like Fred Phelps doesn't threaten to bring down universal destruction upon all Christians for his perverted interpretation of the Bible.

Muslims, through both the perpetration of jihadist atrocities and nearly unanimous silence in condemning same do risk being annihilated for their inaction. This is no fault of the West, as it is merely a matter of self-preservation. Inaction by Muslims on this crucial issue is rapidly becoming an act of willful ignorance and one that merits little, if any, sympathy.

Fred Phelps won't kill your family in front of your eyes for speaking out against him.

He just wishes he could, Seafarious.

Zenster, Isn't it more of a process rather then a program?

You say process, DepotGuy. I say program. Process, program, let's not call the whole thing off.

I do know this though: that if I was back in Karachi, I would be silent unless I had a million other people ready to denounce extremism and terrorism. When you have people who are ready to die for their twisted cause, you don't want to put yourself in danger. Pakistan does not have much in the way of local law enforcement; they can be bought, and are bought all the time. As I said, these mullahs have become powerful enough for ordinary people to stay quiet out of fear. I was watching a documentary called "the journalist and the jihadi" on HBO a week ago. They had a Mullah who denounced terrorism. He was killed a week later. But there are millions of Muslims living in western countries, and I have no answer as to why they don't speak up.

Hedniskhjartad, please refer to what others and I have been saying about silence. Ill ask that you consider the analogy of tiny Denmark during the Nazi occupation of World War Two. With a population that largely conformed to Hitler's blond haired and blue eyed Aryan ideal they, nonetheless, told Adolf to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. At enormous risk, much of their population went about posing one of the most sterling examples of popular resistance seen in all history. They both actively sabotaged German military operations and shielded or smuggled out Jews throughout the entire war. Winston Churchill declared them to be an example for all nations, large or small.

Islamists are nothing more than a new and much more dangerous breed of Nazis. (Please feel free to elaborate upon your own feelings about this comparison.) If the average moderate Muslim does not put up any active resistance to the fanatics, they invite external intervention that may well prove much less discriminating in how it addresses the problem. Regardless of the threat, some action must be taken.

Moderate Muslims are not entitled to sit back for the ride and await some future outcome to determine which side they shall join. It is incumbent upon them to assume a proactive role in addressing this situation lest they be seen as merely part of the problem and no part of the solution. This is entirely their own problem and one that the West has no responsibility to manage.

They want to preserve their culture and way of following religion separate because they believe American laws and culture hinders their religion. Now before someone points this out, let me say this: If this culture is unacceptable, they should head back to their original countries and make a conscious change there instead of demanding a mini-Pakistan or a mini-Iraq here.

Unfortunately, Hedniskhjartad, exactly the opposite is happening. Everywhere Muslims immigrate to, they insist upon preferential treatment and imposition of sharia law, at least at some level. A perfect example of this is the Cartoonifada over the Danish cartoons about Mohammed. What is your opinion of the death fatwahs and Muslim demands for constraint of free speech in constitutionally ruled countries?

Also regard the furor over Pope Benedict's reference to historical comments about Islam. Examine the death threats and demands for jihad against the Vatican. How does this reflect upon Islam's putative title as the Religion of Peace? Where were the massive protests by moderate Muslims saying that such repression of free speech is lamentable and must be condemned? I'd be very interested to hear your comments regarding this.

But let's take an example. In the US, tons of people dress provocatively, behave provocatively (which is fine by me, i'm in college :-D ), etc. Is that to say that Christianity is an immodest religion? Religion says THIS... now people may choose to follow it or interpret it correctly, or they may choose not to, but many a times, judging by the actions of the Muslims, you cannot judge the religion itself.

And here in the United States we have the RIGHT to dress nearly any way we feel like. This is a constitutional feature of the right to free expression. For one group to not only judge such behavior as indecent (which many others might do as well), but then openly seek to outlaw or attempt violent punishment of those who do not subscribe to Islamic rules of conduct and comportment, is a form of religious tyranny and subversive conduct, not to mention highly illegal. Yet, these same Muslims feel not only justified by their religion but see nothing wrong with flouting the laws of whatever country they inhabit in pursuit of this tyranny. Do you not see why so many people view Islam as a threat when it persists in imposing its religious vision wherever it goes?

Finally, I do recommend that you take a moment and review the comments that have been deleted from this thread, Hedniskhjartad. You will find them in the Sinktrap.

Many people accuse Rantburg of being an extremist conservative website. There are some at this site who strongly disapprove of positions that I take. Yet, it is very much to Rantburg's credit, along with its owner Fred Pruitt and the various moderators, that they permit what I consider to be an outstanding level of free speech and, more importantly, free thought. This is exemplified in the sort of welcome you have received here. I hope that you'll note how the vast majority of challenges to your own statements have been courteous and polite. This is a direct reflection of your own civility and, quite importantly, representative of the high standard of conduct this site requires.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-31 18:03|| 2006-10-31 18:03|| Front Page Top

#89 [IDIOT DELETED]

Posted by Shomogum Shineling8027 2006-10-31 18:04|| 2006-10-31 18:04|| Front Page Top

#90 SS8027, I am humbled by your insight and maturity. Where can I sign up to be a Defeatocrat?

Posted by gorb 2006-10-31 18:07|| 2006-10-31 18:07|| Front Page Top

#91 Hedniskhjartad, I'll open this by saying that you display commendable courage in confronting, here at Rantburg, both the misconstrued and valid issues surrounding Islam.

We need more people with insight like Hedniskhjartad. Please consider becoming a regular contributor here!

Posted by gorb 2006-10-31 18:09|| 2006-10-31 18:09|| Front Page Top

#92 Don't humor it. Oh, and don't stand too close. I hear they have rabies.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-10-31 18:11|| 2006-10-31 18:11|| Front Page Top

#93 OOPS. My last was directed at comment 100, NOT Hedniskhjartad. I second the motion that he sticks around.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-10-31 18:13|| 2006-10-31 18:13|| Front Page Top

#94 I hear if you put a stick in one ear and out the other that it makes a good handle and you can ride it like a donkey. :-)

Posted by gorb 2006-10-31 18:15|| 2006-10-31 18:15|| Front Page Top

#95 This is a direct reflection of your own civility and, quite importantly, representative of the high standard of conduct this site requires.

Except, of course, when we're taking turns ragging on trolls. Then even the mods get involved and the fun really begins! :-)

Posted by gorb 2006-10-31 18:18|| 2006-10-31 18:18|| Front Page Top

#96

Redacted by moderator. Comments may be redacted for trolling, violation of standards of good manners, or plain stupidity. Please correct the condition that applies and try again. Contents may be viewed in the sinktrap. Further violations may result in banning.

Posted by Snerese Glater6651 2006-10-31 18:22|| 2006-10-31 18:22|| Front Page Top

#97 "Further violations may result in banning."

Well I'm not advocating censorship or anything, but....oh wait....yes I am.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-10-31 18:27|| 2006-10-31 18:27|| Front Page Top

#98

Posted by Uneating Creresing3908 2006-10-31 18:36|| 2006-10-31 18:36|| Front Page Top

#99 And for 49 Pan, just because I take my name from a death metal band ......so as long as it does not turn into a mudslinging contest.

Blackmetal-deathmetal OK whatever it was general info and not a reflection or infurance. I take my name from an old harley, sorry for the late reply, work has been a bitch this month. Background aside I still feel your approach is overly idealistic, not mudslinging here, my opinion, and I have been around five or six wars where the Muslim community was less than moderate. The cheering in the streets of Pakistan on 9/12 was not moderates in fear, nor are the cheering in Muslim communities in the Philippines when an American helicopter crashes and kills 11,I could go on and on. If you are right then the moderate Muslem community must stand up to the radical mullahs, regardless of the fear, or the west will destroy most of Islam in an effort to protect itself. This is not a threat but a reality of the West, we will not tolerate another 9/11 and are willing to destroy Islam to insure it never happens again. These Mullahs have derailed what I concider a great belief, Islam, and we will destroy it if men like you don't take it back from them. I hope and pray you are right my friend that there are more like you. But until the Madrassas start preaching peace and coexistance we will continue to destroy them.

Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan 2006-10-31 21:46|| 2006-10-31 21:46|| Front Page Top

#100 Hey, I think Hedniskhjartad can only respond to so much. Don't overload the poor guy with too many questions at once.

Posted by Thoth 2006-10-31 22:33|| 2006-10-31 22:33|| Front Page Top

#101 Looks like that might be the case, Thoth. I'm hoping the Moderators might please consider rolling this thread over one more day so this chap has a chance to catch his breath.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-31 23:21|| 2006-10-31 23:21|| Front Page Top

#102 Either way Zen, I think he's a keeper, and welcome him to Rantburg. It's nice to get some differing views here that are articulated and well thought out. Unlike Mr. Sinktrap today.

Posted by Thoth 2006-10-31 23:26|| 2006-10-31 23:26|| Front Page Top

#103 Continued again. Don't think I've seen this before....

Posted by Thoth 2006-11-01 00:08|| 2006-11-01 00:08|| Front Page Top

#104 hope there a Zawahiri splooge of DNA somewhere there

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-11-01 00:11|| 2006-11-01 00:11|| Front Page Top

#105 I'm happy that I'm being met with intelligent criticism. I've brought this up on other websites also (because it does pain me to hear such things about my country), and I've given up because people were abusive, or not worth my time. Quite a few arguments that we've made here have made me rethink some of the opinions i've held. Thanks.
A general comment: Quite a few people have commented on this. Yep, there is no excuse for the rest of the Muslims to stay quiet. Muslims are digging their own graves by staying silent, and creating great furor over inconsequential issues (the Pope statements, the cartoons). If Muslims everywhere don't realise this, and real soon, there will be terrible prices to pay.

Another thing that I just remembered. Many madrassas have their students recite the Koran in Arabic, which is as different from the Pakistani language (Urdu) as English is from French. This has traditional and cultural reasons, but some madrassas do not allow you to read translations. Why? So that the leader of that specific madrassa has the final word on what "God" wants his followers to do. He does not want people to read and challenge the mullah in his authority. People start viewing everything this mullah is saying as truth, and what more can a power hungry person want than to have people believe and follow him, no matter what his vision?

That established, here we go.

49 Pan, #109: I know how you feel... last year of university, so I'm really busy these days too. Tolerance is the wrong word. I believe self defense is more fitting. When you know that by leaving radical muslims alone, they'll attempt another attack, arresting/killing them is simply prevention. I would do the same to protect my family and friends, as I am sure other people would agree. I agree with all that you said, as long as you advocate bombing madrassas that preach violence, and not just any madrassa indiscriminately. How to identify those madrassas, I'll get to that below.

anon4now, #93: I don't know anything about the Spain incident, but if it was from 1492, it might not be in the Koran, or in the sayings of Mohammed. As for my fiancee, she just came to believe that the very idea of God is implausible. She also used to live in Karachi, and has enjoyed a liberal childhood. I've had girlfriends in Pakistan ever since I was 13 or 14. You hear about Karo Kari, infanticide in the case of a baby girl being born, and other things.... but I can quote many verses from the Koran that are against ill treatment against a woman. Also, about slavery... that's another thing that I'll have to read up about. Is slavery practiced legally in any Muslim country?

Zenster, #98: Thanks. I'm not half as articulate as many of you. Often I get lost in my train of thought and then decide to scrap it just because I'm not making sense. You've made some very good arguments, and I don't think I'm going to be able to challenge most of them. Here's one though... you say that it's more intelligent to throw the baby out with the bathwater... but there will be religious schools as long as there are muslims, and abolishing each one of them in each country will not solve the problem, but it will only serve to perpetuate it further. What is needed rather, is to force separate governments from each of those muslim countries to sincerely go after these mullahs, and removing them from the position they're in. No talks, nothing. These countries must be forced to take a hand in the matter.
About the west reaching the end of their patience... such wholesale slaughter will negate what the west stands for; also it will give each muslim a valid reason to hate the west. Does the west like having their innocents die? The muslim world would not either. They would not be able to win any battles, but I guarantee it will shatter world peace in an unimaginable way for a very very long time.

I have addressed Kalle's post rather loosely in one of my previous posts. I don't know enough about Islam's history to be able to challenge them, and I will say that some of them are a part of Islam, but some of those problems are caused by Muslims, and not Islam itself. Female submission is one. It is an old Muslim belief that paradise lies at the feet of the mother. Mohammad used to stand up whenever his daughter used to step into the room. A woman is allowed to work, but not at a job that needs her to come into contact with men. So you might argue that there is a level of submission there, but it's not the equivalent of a woman being treated as a slave in her own house. I don't know anything about apostasy laws, hudood laws and dhimmitude. What I do know is that I have never heard anything good about them from liberal muslims. As
I've said, Islam cannot be separate from state, because a HUGE part of Islam is about the structure of society. It should evolve according to the century they're in. Freedom of speech is allowed by Islam as long as it's not a muslim joking about or defaming Islam, or causing harm to an undeserving person by his/her words. In cases of nonmuslims defaming Islam, they are allowed to do so if they are not residents of a Muslim state, because islam recognizes that it does not have any influence or authority there.

As for the Israel-Palestinian conflict, I don't have much of an opinion. The only side of the story I know is this: in 1948, Israel expanded their borders to take over Palestinian territory. If this is true, I would demand that occupied territory be given back and reparations made to the families of those affected. If that story is untrue, can someone enlighten me?

Extremist Islam can be seen as Nazism, yes. Just as Jewish germans were kept out of the equation, I would be seen as an enemy to extremists also, for my current beliefs.
The Pope is the religious and spiritual leader of millions of Catholics around the world. If such a world leader implies that the very foundation of islam is hate, those millions of his followers will believe him in much the same way muslim followers lap up every word that spews from the mouths of the mullahs. Killing or rioting to prove Islam to be a religion of faith is so stupid that I cannot even begin to talk about it. But I do know that Islam, itself is a religion of peace. It's the followers that often distort and present it to be something else.

And for your comment about dresses and constitutional rights... I agree with you there. As I said before, "If this culture is unacceptable, they should head back to their original countries and make a conscious change there instead of demanding a mini-Pakistan or a mini-Iraq here."

I went to the sinktrap, but could not understand that person's comments out of context. If I have time later, I'll come back to that.

I've enjoyed posting here. I'd like to say that I've tried to answer each question with absolute honesty. I'm not trying to make anything up. If I don't know something, I've clearly stated so. I don't have a particular interest in either religion or politics, therefore I admit I am ill-informed about some of the most basic things. However, it's a refreshing change from various other websites I've been to. I have said many things in this and previous posts that conservatives might find offensive, but I'm glad everyone was willing to give me a chance to present my thoughts, however erratically. However, I've been devoting too much time here, and i'm suffering a bit of a burnout, plus my assignments are suffering. I'm probably not going to be checking back at least 11 hours after this post.

Posted by Hedniskhjartad 2006-11-01 00:25|| 2006-11-01 00:25|| Front Page Top

#106 we are clearly way off topic from the original "gunship kills 80" subject. But since we are off topic, can someone take a look at this and tell me what they think?
I'm new here, so I don't know if external links are allowed or not. If they're not, i'm sorry; just go ahead and remove it.

http://www.parkerstudio.com/AAW/JFK_story.html

Posted by Hedniskhjartad 2006-11-01 00:32|| 2006-11-01 00:32|| Front Page Top

#107 Unfortunately Hedniskhjartad, there are many stories like that out there, and it isn't happening only to Muslims either. I remember the story about the Jewish (orthodox) passenger who was asked to leave the plane because he was praying in his seat before take-off! It doesn't take much to raise people's suspicions nowadays.

It shouldn't be happening but what can you do. If you want to fly you have to adapt and that's it.

Posted by Dissenter 2006-11-01 01:01|| 2006-11-01 01:01|| Front Page Top

#108 Posted by Hedniskhjartad 2006-11-01 00:32

Glad to see you back brother. My only answer is it's a jacked up world we live in. I'm Christian, but have Jewish kin due to my ex-wife who I had children with. She was Jewish, so my sons are half Jewish. To top it off, one of my sisters married a Palestinian and had children, the other married an Indian and had children. I guess you can say we have everyone here in my family, though I'm looking for a nice Japanese gal right now to kind of round things off. My brother never had any kids so he's not a topic here. All this is beside the point...

This war isn't going to be won by the U.S. alone, no matter what anyone here says. Muslims are going to have to be our greatest allies in this campaign. Just some thoughts...Do you have any thoughts into what can bring people closer together to fight against extremists?

Posted by Thoth 2006-11-01 01:07|| 2006-11-01 01:07|| Front Page Top

#109 First off, a big thank you to all of the Moderators for keeping this thread going.

Muslims are digging their own graves by staying silent, and creating great furor over inconsequential issues (the Pope statements, the cartoons). If Muslims everywhere don't realise this, and real soon, there will be terrible prices to pay.

Im truly glad that you understand this. The Thundering Silence of moderate Islam is damning it to the same fate as the jihadists and it is no ones fault but their own.

you say that it's more intelligent to throw the baby out with the bathwater... but there will be religious schools as long as there are muslims, and abolishing each one of them in each country will not solve the problem, but it will only serve to perpetuate it further.

Im not out to abolish all Islamic schools. That said, I do not feel that Islam can continue to survive in an unreformed state. Schools that teach a non-violent Islam that shows respect for women and seeks coexistence with other religions and cultures are very much needed, but conspicuously absent from the current horizon.

What is needed rather, is to force separate governments from each of those muslim countries to sincerely go after these mullahs, and removing them from the position they're in. No talks, nothing. These countries must be forced to take a hand in the matter.

Absent the threat of external military force, how do you propose to convince these MME (Muslim Middle East) countries that they must regulate and prohibit the teaching of jihad? I agree that the clerics are a definite source of most trouble. I also maintain that lack of enforcement requires America to begin hunting down these jihadists and killing them wherever they can be found.

About the west reaching the end of their patience... such wholesale slaughter will negate what the west stands for; also it will give each muslim a valid reason to hate the west. Does the west like having their innocents die? The muslim world would not either. They would not be able to win any battles, but I guarantee it will shatter world peace in an unimaginable way for a very very long time.

Your argument smacks of fighting the terrorists at their level will make you no better than the terrorists. America fought the Nazis and won without becoming Nazis. We can abolish Islamic terrorism without succumbing to Islamist barbarity, even if we are temporarily obliged to use such savage tactics. Giving the Muslims a valid reason to hate the West doesnt matter very much if there are only a few million of them left. Im not real happy to be so blunt, but this is what the baby and the bathwater argument is all about.

As I've said, Islam cannot be separate from state, because a HUGE part of Islam is about the structure of society. It should evolve according to the century they're in.

Right there, youve damned Islam to rightful extinction. So long as Islam insists upon theocratic rule, it FOREVER will be fatally incompatible with Western culture. The separation of church and state is a critical component of all free societies. Without such separation, the possibility for Freedom of Religion is essentially nil. How can Islam demand that its worship be allowed in all free nations when it absolutely forbids or punishes (though dhimmitude) practitioners of other faiths within its own domain? This is a crippling hypocrisy and utterly unacceptable to all free people.

Freedom of speech is allowed by Islam as long as it's not a muslim joking about or defaming Islam, or causing harm to an undeserving person by his/her words. In cases of nonmuslims defaming Islam, they are allowed to do so if they are not residents of a Muslim state, because islam recognizes that it does not have any influence or authority there.

Then why is it that so many Muslims have called for the murder of Pope Benedict or death for the Danish cartoonists when these individuals live entirely outside of Islams domain? I do not expect you to take responsibility for these fanatics, yet I do hope you will realize how so many Muslims far exceed the strictures of their own faith by demanding that those who are utterly removed from it must nonetheless kowtow to infinitely delicate Muslim sensitivities. I compare these Muslims to skinless people living in a sandpaper world. How is it the Wests fault that these skinless people find the world so abrasive?

As for the Israel-Palestinian conflict, I don't have much of an opinion. The only side of the story I know is this: in 1948, Israel expanded their borders to take over Palestinian territory. If this is true, I would demand that occupied territory be given back and reparations made to the families of those affected. If that story is untrue, can someone enlighten me?

Please permit me to be so bold as to say that you have passed a critical litmus test here at Rantburg. By displaying an open mind on this critical issue you have, at least in my own eyes, qualified yourself for prolonged and worthy participation here. I think it best that all further discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian crisis be allocated to another thread entirely. Such debates could consume entire days worth of exchange and best belong elsewhere. I will ask that you please begin to read over the ongoing coverage of this tragic crisis as covered here at Rantburg so as to begin gathering a solid background for future debate.

I've enjoyed posting here.

Allow me to say that I and, it would seem, many others have enjoyed your posts as well.

I'd like to say that I've tried to answer each question with absolute honesty.

Im more than willing to accept that. Your forthrightness shines throughout your writing. It is a welcome change from the vast majority of pro-Islamic posters here.

I'm not trying to make anything up. If I don't know something, I've clearly stated so. I don't have a particular interest in either religion or politics, therefore I admit I am ill-informed about some of the most basic things. However, it's a refreshing change from various other websites I've been to.

Again, this shows and Id like to think that such intellectual honesty is a core qualifier for participation here at Rantburg. Welcome aboard, Hedniskhjartad. You made an obvious effort to honorably address the issues put before you. Take your time, attend to your studies and please do not be a stranger hereabouts. I look forward to watching your own political and religious perceptions evolve. Rantburg has that most peculiar effect on a majority of its participants. Few of us can claim to have remained entirely unaltered by our having visited here.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-11-01 03:29|| 2006-11-01 03:29|| Front Page Top

#110 Your argument smacks of fighting the terrorists at their level will make you no better than the terrorists.

I don't like this shallow, naive interpretation, either. It's why one is fighting that is important, and what the victory is intended to accomplish more than how you fight. If innocents have to die to accomplish the end, it's because evil necessitates it, not good. It's sad but if good can't find a timely way around it, then so be it. No good can come of Muslim victory if it turns out as intended by all the crazies doing, enabling, and directing the fighting.

The West's intention is to set conditions to allow all humans to live in peaceful coexistance, including Muslims, including the good ones who did nothing to head off a showdown. I can't imagine an end better than that.

Posted by gorb 2006-11-01 04:38|| 2006-11-01 04:38|| Front Page Top

#111 Hedniskhjartad:

"I'm new here, so I don't know if external links are allowed or not. If they're not, i'm sorry; just go ahead and remove it.

http://www.parkerstudio.com/AAW/JFK_story.html"

External links are fine, no problem with that at all. The only caveat is that URLs are often very long, and some web browsers (like Firefox) refuse to line-wrap long, unbroken character strings and simply expand the page width to accommodate them instead, thus "busting the page width."

The URL you posted was short enough that it didn't cause this problem. Ones much longer than that, though, are best posted as proper hyperlinks, using the HTML anchor tag. Thus the link you posted, turned into a hyperlink, would be written as:

<A HREF="http://www.parkerstudio.com/AAW/JFK_story.html">LINK</A>

and would appear in our web browsers as:

LINK.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2006-11-01 06:37|| 2006-11-01 06:37|| Front Page Top

#112 Way back up in #73 Hedni made a really important observation that seems to have slipped by the rest of us; though we HERE understand it to be true, the bulk of the world does not.

"But there is one thing: if one party has the guns, you shut up, or die."

THAT'S what our Second Amendment is all about.

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2006-11-01 07:36|| 2006-11-01 07:36|| Front Page Top

#113 What a great run! Reminds me of Liberalhawk and Muk's runs at RB. Can we nominate this to the Classics??

Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan 2006-11-01 11:07|| 2006-11-01 11:07|| Front Page Top

#114 After reading the whole thing, I will change my position
from there are no moderate Muslims
to there is little room and little security for moderate Muslims in Islam
Where does that leave us ?

Posted by wxjames 2006-11-01 12:29|| 2006-11-01 12:29|| Front Page Top

#115 We will continue to destroy Islam and defend our right to exist. Moderate Muslims will either rise up, take back Islam, and learn to live like cililized humans or perish. That about sums up my perspective WX.

Aside from Hedniskhjartad's taste in music, LOL, He sounds grounded. Hope he hangs around.

Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan 2006-11-01 12:44|| 2006-11-01 12:44|| Front Page Top

#116 Wx, I agree ... I'll throw this comment on top as well.

Biologically, we know there is a miniumum number of copies to sustain a viable species or population.

This leads to question, are there enough Moderate Muslims to sustian the moderate population, or is it given to demise in the current environemnt? How can we help increase this population, or is that even possible?

Posted by bombay">bombay 2006-11-01 12:45|| 2006-11-01 12:45|| Front Page Top

#117 Hedniskhjartad, as you can see, you've made a bit of a splash here at Rantburg. When I first arrived here, I felt very strongly about the role of moderate Muslims. Over the last several years those feelings have changed into ones of great skepticism. Largely, due to the Thundering Silence that even free Muslims here in the United States plus Canada and Europe exhibit. I'll not go into all of the reasons for this gradual conversion upon my part but I would ask you to please read one single piece regarding the ever diminishing importance of the moderate Muslim in the West's decision-making process.

The individual in question is known as Fjordman. He has an excellent writing style that is both highly readable and, at the same time, extremely informative. The one article I would recommend to you is:

Why We Cannot Rely Upon Moderate Muslims

Please be advised that this article was largely well-received here at Rantburg. Reading it will give you a huge head start in understanding the apprehension and concerns that many of us have regarding moderate Muslims. I would also suggest that you read his piece titled The Eurabia Code, in order to gain a better appreciation for what many of us regard as a gradual demographic takeover (accelerated by terrorist atrocities) of Europe by its Muslim population.

If you are able to address my final questions in post # 119, that would be nice. If not, no harm - no foul, I'll merely look forward to another occasion where we can exchange ideas about those topics. If it's a tossup between replying and reading the Fjordman article, please read the article. It will prepare you for many of the opposing views that you will encounter here. I wish you well.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-11-01 13:24|| 2006-11-01 13:24|| Front Page Top

#118 How can we help increase this population, or is that even possible?

Again, sorting out the moderate Muslims in order to render them assistance is simply not feasible. The greatest threat that they face is from the extremists, not the West, yet.

In light of how moderate Muslims are branded apostates by the extremists, the one single thing we can do to encourage migration towards moderate views is begin killing all of the extremist clergy.

Abu Bakr Bashir, Yusuf Qaradawi, Omar Bakri, abu Hamza, Hassan Nasrallah, Khalid Meshaal, Taj al-Hilali, Mullah Omar, Osama bin Laden, Mohammed Omran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Ali Kahmeini, Moqtada Sadr.

Summarily executing just this baker's dozen of jihadist clerics would set back the Islamic propaganda machine for YEARS. It would provide some breathing room for moderate Muslims to act with less fear and solid knowledge of our support for them.

Moreover, it would be a tremndous step forward in the fight against terrorism and send an unmistakable message to all jihadist clerics that their future role is short-lived and any retirement benefits are all in the hereafter.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-11-01 13:40|| 2006-11-01 13:40|| Front Page Top

#119 Excellent idea Zenster and one that, while I've heard it before, here and elsewhere, it is never said enough. All of these swine need to go down, and fast. A coordinated take down over the course of a few months would send a devastating message to the extremists. These are the hate-mongers. These are the indoctrinators. These are the source of the cancer. They MUST be eradicated.

BTW, it goes without saying that this is just an incredible thread. RB is just a joy.

Posted by remoteman 2006-11-01 18:06|| 2006-11-01 18:06|| Front Page Top

#120 BTW, it goes without saying that this is just an incredible thread. RB is just a joy.

Hear, hear, remoteman. I second the nomination for this thread as an alltime classic. I also appreciate that you aren't bored by my repetition of the summary execution proposal. It remains as the one cost-effective measure to begin dismantling jihadist Islam. If there was a $5.⁰⁰ check-off box on my 1040 tax form for funding of such a program, I'd check it twice.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-11-01 20:04|| 2006-11-01 20:04|| Front Page Top

#121 Wow. This was quite a read. I'd agree that it goes down as a classic thread, and would be even more so, were it not for the annoying sinktrapped trollisms at every turn. Once again the dhimmicrats demonstrate their inabilty to engage in intellectual argument, devolving into nothing more than name calling and gutter insults. I don't know why I'm surprised. That being said, I too send kudos to the mods for keeping this one active.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-11-01 23:04|| 2006-11-01 23:04|| Front Page Top

#122 Moderators: If you could keep this thread open one more day for a reply by Hedniskhjartad, it would be nice. If not, please accept my personal thanks for having continued an important exchange of ideas that has made Rantburg a better place. The level of plain and simple civility herein should bear witness to why this thread should be kept alive.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-11-01 23:37|| 2006-11-01 23:37|| Front Page Top

#123 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by FNB 2006-10-31 00:54|| 2006-10-31 00:54|| Front Page Top

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Posted by Uneating Creresing3908 2006-10-31 18:36|| 2006-10-31 18:36|| Front Page Top

12:45 bk
23:53 Hyper
23:48 Hyper
23:37 Zenster
23:26 Zenster
23:26 Shath Hupumble6441
23:24 Grunter
23:20 Zenster
23:11 .com
23:08 Old Patriot
23:06 Jan
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