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2006-10-14 Europe

Armenian genocide monument destroyed in France

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Posted by Steve 2006-10-14 09:33|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Well, we can certainly scrap any idea that the Armenian genocide ever happened.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-14 09:50|| 2006-10-14 09:50|| Front Page Top

#2 An interesting comparison can be made to the Armenian situation and the contemporary events in Mexico.

Armenia, by most accounts, was actively courting and siding with the Russians, encouraging them to invade the Ottoman empire. They were seen by the Turks as disloyal and treacherous.

In Mexico, the Yaqui indians in the South also were working against their government, but actively attempting to overthrow it in a civil war, which they came close to accomplishing.

As punishment, many Armenians were put on trains and relocated to camps in internal deportation, far away from where they could assist the Russians. After losing their civil war, the Yaquis were put on trains and internally deported to harsh northern Mexico, where they remained until the 1940s.

And while both events are cited as early examples of industrial genocide, what is interesting is how very differently they are seen by the western world, and America in particular.

Even a some years after the Armenian genocide, American charities were still collecting large amounts of donations "to feed the starving Armenians", though most of the money was siphoned off into the pockets of the charity organizers.

But there was no such effort of any kind for the Yaquis, even though they now lived right next to the border with the US, and many had even crossed over to create settlements in Arizona.

In fact, while the US had paid considerable attention to central America, it pointedly had given up on Mexico until Poncho Villa crossed the border and attacked a US city. But even then, it wasn't the Yaqui indians who were at issue.

Certainly a fickle response.

Posted by Anonymoose 2006-10-14 10:44|| 2006-10-14 10:44|| Front Page Top

#3 Moose, relocation, hmmm, eh? What about the corpse count, is that comparable? You seem to miss that spot while whitewashing the fence.

Posted by twobyfour 2006-10-14 10:53|| 2006-10-14 10:53|| Front Page Top

#4 Leave it to Al-Reuters to quote Ankara claiming Mooslums were victims.

I have a feeling that if the coppers followed the trail of burning churches and Muhamhead cartoons...

Anonymoose try to stay on topic. The Armenians were Christians and the Muslims wanted their lands. The were slaughtered in mass just like Muhammad did to the Jews tribe in Medina.

No America wasn't responsible for the Yaquis. You may now go back to posting on KOS.

Double Spit!

Posted by Icerigger 2006-10-14 10:55|| 2006-10-14 10:55|| Front Page Top

#5 Moose, thanks for the comment. I was unaware of the Yaqui situation and consider it the thing I learned today. I doing so, I did not see the word genocide, even at Wikipedia, and got the impression the treatment was comparable to U.S. treatment of the Indians and ended about a generation after hostilities ceased in the U.S. Not a period of pride but not genocide.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-10-14 11:35|| 2006-10-14 11:35|| Front Page Top

#6 Anonymoos your analogy to the purported issues with the indigenous people in Mexico, has no relevance... learn to post... focus on the topic!, I suspect that was not caused by a foggy mind, rahter you had ulterior motives. totaly uncool

Posted by Deramerikaner 2006-10-14 13:00|| 2006-10-14 13:00|| Front Page Top

#7 learn to post... focus on the topic!,

Yeah, That's the way we do things here at the Burg. Focus. Like a laser beam. And no ulterior motives, sarcasm or inuendo.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-10-14 14:32|| 2006-10-14 14:32|| Front Page Top

#8 Nimble Spemble: Well, what stands out in my mind about the Yaqui Revolt was not only how the Mexican government just had an open season on killing as many as 100,000, even organizing hunting parties; but then sent another 10-15,000 into slavery where over half died in the first year.

But it still strikes me as odd that it is seen as such a non-event in the US, along with much of the horrific, bitter fighting in Mexico in the early part of the previous century. So close, yet so far away.

For its part, the Armenian genocide was the first really impressive industrial genocide of all of the the 20th Century's genocides. But as far away as it was from the US, knowledge of it was far more widespread.

I am a bit surprised by all the outrage. I see it as much like being angrily accused of being a Holocaust denier because I mention that the expression "concentration camp" was first used during the Boer War.

My "interesting comparison" was to the means, not the scale or particulars of the events. The use of trains to accelerate ethnic cleansing and mass murder in such far-flung places as Armenia and Mexico. And the oddity of how a horrific event right next door is unseen, while a different one on the other side of the planet elicits such reporting and response.

Posted by Anonymoose 2006-10-14 14:55|| 2006-10-14 14:55|| Front Page Top

#9 Yaqui genocide monument destroyed in France

Posted by RD 2006-10-14 16:27|| 2006-10-14 16:27|| Front Page Top

#10 establishes a one year prison term and 45,000 euro (30,326 pound) fine for anyone denying the massacres

Problem solved. No snark, focused and perfectly attuned to the thread at hand.

HEY! IS THAT ELVIS?

Posted by Shipman 2006-10-14 17:07|| 2006-10-14 17:07|| Front Page Top

#11 For its part, the Armenian genocide was the first really impressive industrial genocide of all of the the 20th Century's genocides.

There's probably something about Hitler using it as a template that gives the Armenian genocide a bit more impact. That it finds resonance in the persistent but more strongly voiced calls of late by Muslims for a renewed Holocaust lends a certain distinct urgency as well.

But as far away as it was from the US, knowledge of it was far more widespread.

This is probably due to the fact that Americans of Armenian descent outnumber Americans of Yaqui lineage by over 1,000:1. There is also the likely element of how Yaqui repression comes across as just another legacy of conquista Spain being echoed in Mexican government and its similarly horrendous track record.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-14 17:07|| 2006-10-14 17:07|| Front Page Top

#12 Zenster: as an aside, not too long ago I visited a history museum in New Mexico, and the reoccuring theme was "Spanish, okay. Americans horrible!", as far as the indians were concerned.

The concerted effort to re-write history to make the Spanish look good and the Americans look bad was more than a little nauseating.

Posted by Anonymoose 2006-10-14 18:13|| 2006-10-14 18:13|| Front Page Top

#13 'moose, I can't turn up a title or any references with an online search, but many years ago I bought a ~1918 original edition by some chap (Harry Franks?) who set out to walk the entire length of the Andes. Paul Theroux mentioned this figure in his book, "The Old Patagonian Express".

As a caucasian, Theroux's predecessor knew well enough not to go by horseback because he would be regarded as a caballero of the gentlemanly class and never have any chance to meet ordinary people. While reading the book, one particular conversation he outlined really stuck in my head.

He was spending an evening as the guest of a haciendero who remarked that North America was much more fortunate to have been colonized by the Northern Europeans as they tended to establish industries that made use of local natural resources. He contrasted this with how the Spaniards were essentially of a looting mentality that left in their wake corrupt governments and little to show for the enormous wealth taken.

If the Spanish conquistas are being romanticized it represents a bit of horrendous revisionism in keeping with the current trend of how bad all things American must be.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-14 18:41|| 2006-10-14 18:41|| Front Page Top

#14 like Hitler said who remembers the armenian genocide

Posted by Viking 2006-10-14 19:44|| 2006-10-14 19:44|| Front Page Top

#15 Another thing Anonymoose, Americans didn't really care about native Indian welfare, let alone Indians in Mexico. They caused us trouble and we wanted to get rid of them. So, we couldn't really say much to the Mexicans when we'd done the same. The reason Armenian genocide is well known in US is because a large number, several millions, of Armenian survivors came to America and settled. They never forget the past and remind us of the genocide.They are not too fond of Turks or Muzzies either one. So, I think we can trust them. They've been good citizens. Hard workers. One became a governor of California..Deukmajian.

Posted by SpecOp35 2006-10-14 20:43|| 2006-10-14 20:43|| Front Page Top

#16 If the Spanish conquistas are being romanticized it represents a bit of horrendous revisionism in keeping with the current trend of how bad all things American must be.

It may represent part of a debate about hwether to Anglicize and join the Anglosphere or to remain part of the Hispanosphere. Going Anglo creates tremendous stress and conflict. There are powerful forces in Mexico that will resist Anglicizing. They'd rather have those emigrate than change the culture. Expecially the ruling class.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-10-14 21:30|| 2006-10-14 21:30|| Front Page Top

#17 Expecially the ruling class.

That Mexico's ruling class is their core problem says a lot about any putative societal resistance to Anglicizing.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-14 21:54|| 2006-10-14 21:54|| Front Page Top

#18 Well, the 40 families have been ruining Mexico for a long time. Look at all the retirement fund for the state oil company : looted of billions of US dollars, and no one goes to jail.

Posted by Shieldwolf 2006-10-14 23:30|| 2006-10-14 23:30|| Front Page Top

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