Article

2004-04-05 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by tipper 2004-04-05 9:18:02 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 "Coming under fire, the ICDC, a paramilitary force trained by the Americans, turned on the US soldiers and started to shoot at them."

Unbelievable. Interesting that the Arabs usually use what they get from the West, to fight against the West.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-04-05 9:45:51 AM|| 2004-04-05 9:45:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 It looks to me like the ayatollahs in Tehran want the US out of Iraq before Iran rolls out the nuclear-tipped Shahab-3s.

Posted by mrp 2004-04-05 10:25:36 AM|| 2004-04-05 10:25:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Ye-esh! Kicking al-Sadr's ass has been way too long in waiting - and if he "wants peace", he got the hint ...

Posted by Edward Yee 2004-04-05 10:46:52 AM|| [http://edwardyee.fanworks.net] 2004-04-05 10:46:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 WHAT. THE. SHIT.
?!?!?

Dozens of armed Mehdi Army militiamen stormed the governorâs office at dawn today, raising a green Islamic flag on the roof, he said.

Four hours later British troops were no longer in the area while policemen who had been inside the building when it was overrun were seen deployed alongside the Medhi Army militiamen.

Both the US and UK need to start some SERIOUS counter-intelligence operations and get all the snakes out. :(

Posted by Anonymous4021 2004-04-05 10:52:25 AM|| 2004-04-05 10:52:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Unbelievable. Interesting that the Arabs usually use what they get from the West, to fight against the West.

I believe that it's time for Plan B.

All of Iraq's southern oil fields should be put into Kuwaiti control and administration, be given special status as a Kuwaiti protectorate, and Shiites removed from the area. Northern oil fields are put under Kurdish control and the Kurds given their own nation. The remainder is given to those Iraqis who want to peacefully rebuild their nation from whatever is left. Within that area, reserve a small town large enough to hold all those who just can't seem to get over the violence thing, and put all the troublemakers into it. Surround the city with an armed force and let its inhabitants seethe all they wish, kill each other off, whatever.

These people are unable to act like anything else but children, and it's time to treat them as such and administer the Big Stick to their asses.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-04-05 10:56:08 AM|| 2004-04-05 10:56:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Ok, who or what is "Amid"? A newspaper?

Nip this crap in the bud, boys. If an armored division is called for, make the call.

"Major Operations" are no longer over, methinks...

Posted by mojo 2004-04-05 11:08:33 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:08:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 "The fighting erupted when five trucks of US soldiers and the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps (ICDC) tried to enter the district"
-I'm obviously not on deck to see this shit, but what the hell? Going in w/trucks? Where's the escorts? This has got to be leg outfits or something.

"Two Apaches opened fire on armed members of the Mehdi Army," - yeah, wonder who won that engagement -bwhahaha.

This actually is not a bad scenario. Get them out in the open, let them thump their chests, run their sucks, shoot their pee-shooters. Then kill them all.

We're prolly going to have to go block by block on this one. It's gonna suck but it needs to happen.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-05 11:22:46 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:22:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 There have been folks talking for awhile about how the lessons of Grozny and Mogadishu have been learned, now we get to find out the hard way.

Maybe al-Sadr and his minions are paper tigers, and I sincerely hope so. Just remember that when Eric Shinseki was estimating the force level to occupy Iraq 240,000 was his floor.

Posted by Hiryu 2004-04-05 11:25:17 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:25:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 CNN & Fox are reporting that an arrest warrant has been issued on al-Sadr for murder.

Posted by BH 2004-04-05 11:28:11 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:28:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 al-Sadr's aide was in jail for murdering a rival shiite cleric - that's what sparked this crap according to the news. Kill their leaders, they will learn, if not, they will die.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-05 11:29:38 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:29:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 don't arrest him. kill him. let his follower have their martyr and then when they get violent kill them in numbers. Make this a demonstration to the people of Iraq that the mullahs will NOT have influence in the future of Iraqi politics.

If we don't crack down on this and Fallujah with extreme prejudice others will get ideas.

I'm convinced that these people are the extreme minority of Iraqis and their scaring the sh-t out of average Iraqis. The Iraqi people will thank us for ending this quickly and finally.

Posted by Damn_Proud_American 2004-04-05 11:33:57 AM|| [http://brighterfuture.blogspot.com] 2004-04-05 11:33:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Does anybody know which cleric Sadr murdered?

Posted by Charles 2004-04-05 11:40:48 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:40:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Khoei, among others. He tried to bump off Sistani, too.

Posted by Fred 2004-04-05 11:47:27 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:47:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 I agree w/DPA. Sistani would prolly appreciate his demise in a backchannel sort of way imo. Of course the propaganda from our end is that this a fight against Sadr and not islam in general which is an enlightening, eloquent, religion of peace.....my lips just fell off - bwhahaha.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-05 11:52:28 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:52:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 I've not heard what the outcome of the shootout has been But it sounds like the fight lasted a few hours and then things cooled down. Not good. Once the guns go off the battle should have gone on to it's conclusion. End of sadr's army and end of any armed resistance.

Soon a new news cycle starts and this story goes in the books.

Posted by Lucky 2004-04-05 12:40:41 PM|| 2004-04-05 12:40:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Sistani has got to go as well, I don't buy his BS for a nanosecond.

Posted by ne1469 2004-04-05 1:25:08 PM|| 2004-04-05 1:25:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Don't like this stuff about the ICDC switching sides. Don't like it at all. One of the basic points in our reconstruction of Iraq is that the Iraqis who worked with us would be honest in the Chicago-sense of the word -- once bought, they stay bought. The ICDC guys have paychecks, some training, some respect, and an opportunity to help rebuild the country with themselves as a respected part of it.

That some of them have flipped is greatly concerning to me, and worries me that we're either a) not capable of vetting the Iraqis well enough or b) the Iraqis just don't get it, or want to get it.

Sadr is a small issue: by the end of the week he'll be dead, in custody or in Iran. The bigger issue is that these attacks have exposed a real problem in our reconstruction scheme. Nope, nope, don't like it none at all.

Posted by Steve White 2004-04-05 1:47:36 PM|| 2004-04-05 1:47:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 I agree w/DPA. Sistani would prolly appreciate his demise in a backchannel sort of way imo.

This AM's WaPo says more or less the same thing - sounds like CPA wanted Sistani et al to deal with Sadr, while Sistani wanted CPA to do it. Well now that the US is cleaning up Sistani's dirty laundry for him, I would hope this reduced Sistanis future leverage.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-05 1:52:40 PM|| 2004-04-05 1:52:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 SW - well some folks are going to say that the coalition failed to vett properly, cause they were in too much of a rush to get the ICDC and IP numbers up, to keep US troop strength in Iraq going down.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-05 1:54:23 PM|| 2004-04-05 1:54:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 I can't imagine that "dozens" of anybody could run off British troops. I hope that the "kindler, gentler" British administration in Basra has taken the names and will now get on with kicking ass. Otherwise we may have to replace them with the Poles or the Spanish - at least they fight.

Posted by RWV 2004-04-05 2:11:18 PM|| 2004-04-05 2:11:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 SW / LH - These are Arabs. Arabs. The only vetting that would be reliable is family / tribe. Make the tribe head Police Goombah, hire for his station / district from his tribe and THEN you will get, at least more often than not, people following orders. Of course it will be utterly corrupt and they will use their power mafia-style.

Is there any hope?
I respectfully refuse to answer the question based on my 5th Amendment rights.

Posted by .com 2004-04-05 2:23:45 PM|| 2004-04-05 2:23:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 maybe tribal vetting would help.

it does look like the following.
1. Shinseki says need 250,000 troops to occupy Iraq
2. US occupies with 100,000.
3. Recruits ICDC and IP very fast to fill gap.
4. Lots of commentators say we're bringing them on too fast
5. In combat some switch sides, lots of others prove ineffective

Now it COULD be that theyre just arabs, and vetting doesnt matter. But it sure looks like the vetting matters.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-05 2:45:53 PM|| 2004-04-05 2:45:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 I saw a comedy show with Eddie Izzard (played one of the bad guys in The Avengers, but better known for his stand-up) and he described a mythical scene where the Church of England was being spoofed - and were placed in the role of the evil Romans dealing with criminals who would be otherwise crucified. In the routine, the difference wrought by The Church of England on the decision process was that the criminals were offered the choice of "Cake or Death?" Of course, they rather quickly ran out of cake...

Perhaps we should line up every motherfucker in Iraq, block by block, city by city, and offer them this choice. Cake or Death, asshole? Wanna wager how many would, when faced one-on-one with a Jarhead, would proudly puff up and declare "Death!"? Wait, don't answer yet...

1) Loyalty is to their family / tribe first, unless they have crossed over into the "True Believer" category - then it's their Imam first.

2) Unlike family / tribe, they can CHOOSE the Imam they follow - but it will be the local guy at first - the one their parents follow, thus not likely to be a spewer of jihadi BS, that's a young man's game.

3) If their tribe is low on the status foodchain, and there is definitely a hieracrhy, the ambitious types among them are more likely to become True Believers and pick the Imam who delivers more status - whether though jihadi BS or not. Sistani's ilk draws the ultra-holy wannabes and Sadr's ilk draws the hothead wannabes.

4) They are indoctrinated from birth to show automatic respect for Turbans, tight or otherwise. So even Sistani's followers are tempted, in some degree, to listen to Sadr - so the borderline guys can be siphoned off by Sadr if he gets away with his fiery rhetoric. Every day he remains alive and free, his siren call becomes stronger and attracts more fodder.

5) Last but certainly not least is the fact that they are hugely affected by social pressure - real or imagined. The Stasi of East Germany didn't invent their security approach - Islam perfected the Big Brother system centuries ago.

So. Tribal head, Imam, and who's watching are the pivot points in their universe. Want to change how they react to any stimulus? Control these pivot points. Now you guys figure out where we go from here.

Cake or Death?

Posted by .com 2004-04-05 3:40:28 PM|| 2004-04-05 3:40:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Before we all jump on the Iraqi turn-coats lets consider a few facts first. If I'm an Iraqi working beside the US soldiers and I switch sides on them suddenly I will certainly kill at least one guy in the process when I do. The entire turn-coat militia, plus Sadr's little army killed 7 guys by this account which leads me to believe the turncoats didn't really have their hearts in it, that they switched sides out of cowardice, or because they stupidly thought the Sadr boys would win, or because they feared for their families.

Either way it says we can't trust them. And it would be nice to clean house now, tet offensive style. Politically this will be used similar to Tet to bash Bush and the Coalition forces and push for withdrawal from the quagmire when there is a good chance to clean house and break the back of resistance now.

Most Iraqi's did not feel they had actually been defeated after the war. Its time Sadr's boys taste defeat.

Posted by ruprecht 2004-04-05 5:20:54 PM|| 2004-04-05 5:20:54 PM|| Front Page Top

23:57 Zenster
23:57 Zenster
23:54 Zenster
23:54 Zenster
23:30 Zenster
23:30 Zenster
01:24 Frank
01:24 Frank
01:22 James TROLL
01:11 Baker TROLL
09:08 rkb
04:55 Super Hose
03:48 Pete Stanley
03:17 Super Hose
02:54 Murat
01:15 .com
01:06 .com
00:52 Alaska Paul on the Road
00:39 cingold
00:24 WhiteHouseDetox
00:18 ex-lib
00:17 Zenster
00:13 phil_b
00:04 Alaska Paul on the Road