Article

2009-01-09 Israel-Palestine-Jordan

Hamas Pulling Back Into Crowded Cities, Beckoning Israelis

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Posted by Fred 2009-01-09 00:00|| || Front Page|| [1 views ] Top
File under: Hamas

#1 Its better to do it now than later after Obambi offers Hamas a life line. Two-three weeks is what they've got tops.

Posted by Bertie Pheath9346 2009-01-09 08:32|| 2009-01-09 08:32|| Front Page Top

#2 tactical withdrawal, with its fighters melting away
WaPo makes it sound like some Hamas new grand plan. In truth, Hamas has never faced its enemy in force. It has always hidden amid the populace. That's why Israel started this campaign with precision bombing -- the Hamas facilities were dispersed everywhere from residential houses to mosques to university buildings. And to hospital basements. Lions of Islam indeed.

Posted by Darrell 2009-01-09 09:11|| 2009-01-09 09:11|| Front Page Top

#3 #1 Its better to do it now than later after Obambi offers Hamas a life line.

I suspect the offer has alreayd been made.

Posted by Besoeker 2009-01-09 09:28|| 2009-01-09 09:28|| Front Page Top

#4 Now that you have them bottled up with their supply line cut off (UN Welfare), keep them under siege and starve them out. They'll have to start moving around in just a few days.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2009-01-09 09:56|| 2009-01-09 09:56|| Front Page Top

#5 ...about a third of them Hamas Human Shields(tm) ~~them women and children~~, according to the United Nations.

As we say on the 'burg, fixed it for you

Posted by Procopius2k 2009-01-09 09:57|| 2009-01-09 09:57|| Front Page Top

#6 So Hamas is holding a million Gazans hostage?

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2009-01-09 10:07|| 2009-01-09 10:07|| Front Page Top

#7 on the contrary, Israel is leaking word they will continue beyond inaug day if necessary. In case hamas is counting on waiting out the clock.

Posted by liberalhawk 2009-01-09 10:15|| 2009-01-09 10:15|| Front Page Top

#8 A siege might be best here. Lebanon proved that going in built up areas is hard and will be expensive in Israeli lives. I guess it all depends how much pressure the Israeli government is willing to take from the world over a prolonged siege. In the past, the government has proven to be the weak link in any battle plan.

Posted by DarthVader 2009-01-09 10:56|| 2009-01-09 10:56|| Front Page Top

#9 Hamas is counting on the fact that either an invasion or a seige will be costly in GAZAN lives, to the point where world opinion will force the Israelis to back off. Killed or captured Israelis are just icing on the cake.

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2009-01-09 11:14|| 2009-01-09 11:14|| Front Page Top

#10 they were elected by the palestinians to represent them, I think they get what they get, poor babies

Posted by sick of it 2009-01-09 11:59|| 2009-01-09 11:59|| Front Page Top

#11 Screw 'em. Bomb the entire area into the ground. If Gazans are unable or unwilling to shake off the chains of Hamass, they deserve to die. Tough on the women and kids, but hey, life's REALLY tough when you're stupid. I have no sympathy for the mind-deranged that call themselves "muslims".

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2009-01-09 12:52|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2009-01-09 12:52|| Front Page Top

#12 #8

its been noted that in 1982 it took 3 months to pry Arafat out of Beirut.

OTOH the Gemayel govt didnt stick, so that may not be the best model.

Posted by liberalhawk 2009-01-09 13:23|| 2009-01-09 13:23|| Front Page Top

#13 I think it was old Tricky Dick Nixon who said "It's not so much important that they love us as it is that they respect us." Or something to that effect. I think Israel could benefit from that philosophy in this case. Nobody's ever gonna love 'em, especially Gazans, so they need to get some respect. They need to win this thing by whatever means are necessary and to hell with world opinion. Everybody knows that's what Hamas will do eventually if they aren't stopped.

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2009-01-09 13:34|| 2009-01-09 13:34|| Front Page Top

#14 Machiavel, The Prince:

Let them hate so long as they fear.

Posted by lotp 2009-01-09 14:16|| 2009-01-09 14:16|| Front Page Top

#15 Let them hate so long as they fear.

Y'know, that would make a good blog rotating title, no?

Posted by anonymous5089 2009-01-09 14:20|| 2009-01-09 14:20|| Front Page Top

#16 I thought the original statement was in latin, "Oderant dum metuant," and originated with Caligula.

Posted by Thing From Snowy Mountain 2009-01-09 14:43|| 2009-01-09 14:43|| Front Page Top

#17 The Gamayel government didn't stick because Pencilnecks Daddy boomed the Gamayel originally intended to take the reigns and Israel was left with the 'Other Gamayel'.

Posted by Mike N. 2009-01-09 14:47|| 2009-01-09 14:47|| Front Page Top

#18 The famous quote "Let them hate, so long as they fear" has often been mis-attributed to both Machiavelli and Caligula, but it actually originated from the Roman poet and literary scholar Lucius Accius.

Posted by Scooter McGruder (student of Latin) 2009-01-09 15:15|| 2009-01-09 15:15|| Front Page Top

#19 17

yeah. the point is, whatever follows hamas rule in Gaza is likely to be just as byzantine and just as messy as Lebanon. Which raises the question of just how much its worth push Hamas out (given that saying that long is going to be costly to Israel on many levels)

Posted by liberalhawk 2009-01-09 15:49|| 2009-01-09 15:49|| Front Page Top

#20 what Machiavelli said is that its better to be feared than loved (in situations where being both is not possible)

Posted by liberalhawk 2009-01-09 15:50|| 2009-01-09 15:50|| Front Page Top

#21 Iranian "AID" Ship on its way to Gaza...already passing through Suez Canal in Egypt.

Iranian Press TVreports:

"An Iranian aid ship, destined for Palestinians, has reportedly entered Egyptian waters and scheduled to dock at the port of Gaza on Saturday.

According to IRIB, the ship, with 2000 tons of "humanitarian aid", passed through the Suez Canal and will head for Gaza "After obtaining needed permissions".

"The Iranian ship carried medicine and foodstuffs including rice, flour, sugar as well as a group of medics and nurses.

The Islamic Republic has also sent several consignments of humanitarian aid to the tiny land via Egypt so far. "
FROM> http://muqata.blogspot.com/

Posted by 3dc 2009-01-09 16:10|| 2009-01-09 16:10|| Front Page Top

#22 So my old hero Tricky Dick was basically just quoting Lucius Accius? Doesn't surprise me. I think Tricky read a lot.

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2009-01-09 16:15|| 2009-01-09 16:15|| Front Page Top

#23 19

Not so. Gaza is not a 'factioned' as Lebanon. And the population of different religions were changing dramatically in Lebanon. IE Shia were becoming an increasing percentage with more influence and power via Mullahs and other religions, like Christians were becoming a smaller percentage.

Posted by Mike N. 2009-01-09 16:23|| 2009-01-09 16:23|| Front Page Top

#24 well yeah its not the same. No shia, druze, or maronites in Gaza. But you DO have fatah, whatever hamasniks survive the collapse of Hamas rule, Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeeda, various clans (dogmush, etc). The point is its not as simple as "Hamas falls, fatah takes over, all is peaceful and quiet" Chaos is more likely than that. NOw, if its a 25% chance of a complete Fatah takeover, 25% of utter chaos, and 50% of something in between, how much is that worth it to Israel, versus having a weakened Hamas stay in power?

Posted by liberalhawk 2009-01-09 17:22|| 2009-01-09 17:22|| Front Page Top

#25 whatever follows hamas rule in Gaza

Hama Rules?
President Assad identified the rebellion as emanating from Syria's fourth-largest city Hama and he literally leveled it, pounding the fundamentalist neighborhoods with artillery for days. Once the guns fell silent, he plowed up the rubble and bulldozed it flat, into vast parking lots. Amnesty International estimated that 10,000 to 25,000 Syrians, mostly civilians, were killed in the merciless crackdown. Syria has not had a Muslim extremist problem since.

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2009-01-09 17:25|| 2009-01-09 17:25|| Front Page Top

#26 RE: #21:
what are the chances the Israeli Navy turns the Iranian 'aid ship' around like it did the 'Dignity' last week?
i think they will allow it through.

Posted by USN, Ret. 2009-01-09 17:27|| 2009-01-09 17:27|| Front Page Top

#27 whos going to do that in Gaza?

This BTW is a debate in Israel right now, IIUC. Olmert wants to stay in Gaza till Hamas falls (redeem his whole term in office, i guess) Barak wants to declare victory, sign a deal, and get out. Livni wants to declare victory, and get out without a deal, to avoid giving indirect legitimacy to hamas, and in the belief that a free hand to go back in is a better way to avoid more rocket fire than anything they will get in any deal.

Posted by liberalhawk 2009-01-09 17:28|| 2009-01-09 17:28|| Front Page Top

#28 The famous quote "Let them hate, so long as they fear" has often been mis-attributed to both Machiavelli and Caligula, but it actually originated from the Roman poet and literary scholar Lucius Accius.

Are you sure? Sounds like Fred speaking from his Neptune.

Posted by .5MT 2009-01-09 17:29|| www.cybernations.net]">[www.cybernations.net] 2009-01-09 17:29|| Front Page Top

#29 LH,

The only advantage to having a Hamas in control in Gaza over having a fight to fill the power vacuum is that with a recognized authority there's somewhere to place blame for the attacks on Israel.

However, and this is most important, Israel is in position to determined who will govern Gaza. If they want Fatah, then it will be, if they're willing to make it happen.

Posted by Mike N. 2009-01-09 19:20|| 2009-01-09 19:20|| Front Page Top

#30 Duh. You are absolutely right, Scooter. I tossed that off without stopping to correctly remember Machiavelli's point, which was that an effective Prince might need to instill fear but should be careful to avoid causing hate if possible.

And here comes in the question whether it is better to be loved rather than feared, or feared rather than loved. It might perhaps be answered that we should wish to be both; but since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved.

For of men it may generally be affirmed, that they are thankless, fickle, false studious to avoid danger, greedy of gain, devoted to you while you are able to confer benefits upon them, and ready, as I said before, while danger is distant, to shed their blood, and sacrifice their property, their lives, and their children for you; but in the hour of need they turn against you.

The Prince, therefore, who without otherwise securing himself builds wholly on their professions is undone. For the friendships which we buy with a price, and do not gain by greatness and nobility of character, though they be fairly earned are not made good, but fail us when we have occasion to use them.

Moreover, men are less careful how they offend him who makes himself loved than him who makes himself feared. For love is held by the tie of obligation, which, because men are a sorry breed, is broken on every whisper of private interest; but fear is bound by the apprehension of punishment which never relaxes its grasp.

Nevertheless a Prince should inspire fear in such a fashion that if he do not win love he may escape hate. For a man may very well be feared and yet not hated, and this will be the case so long as he does not meddle with the property or with the women of his citizens and subjects. And if constrained to put any to death, he should do so only when there is manifest cause or reasonable justification. But, above all, he must abstain from the property of others. For men will sooner forget the death of their father than the loss of their patrimony.

Found at this online translation

Posted by lotp 2009-01-09 20:28|| 2009-01-09 20:28|| Front Page Top

#31 Did Hamas pull back into the cities, or just melt away? When does tactical withdrawl become a rout?

Hama.s seems to have lost command and control so it is possible the gunnies have just gone home?

The military war may be over; the paleoganda war continues as usual.

Posted by Skunky Glins 5***">Skunky Glins 5*** 2009-01-09 20:35|| 2009-01-09 20:35|| Front Page Top

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