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2006-09-28 Iraq
Tater Said to Lose Control Over Part of Mahdi Army
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Posted by Fred 2006-09-28 00:00|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 OK! OK! So Tader has splinter groups. I vote we call them Tader Tots! :)
Posted by Hupuck Hupaigum2230 2006-09-28 00:04||   2006-09-28 00:04|| Front Page Top

#2 More like Tater Totenkopfs.
I smell a plausible deniability arrangement.
Posted by twobyfour 2006-09-28 00:09||   2006-09-28 00:09|| Front Page Top

#3 NYT effort to stop the anti-Sadr offensive
Posted by Frank G 2006-09-28 00:15||   2006-09-28 00:15|| Front Page Top

#4 The radical Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr has lost control of portions of his Mahdi Army

That sounds like a question for his urologist.
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2006-09-28 00:17||   2006-09-28 00:17|| Front Page Top

#5 Or dentist.
Posted by Besoeker 2006-09-28 00:18||   2006-09-28 00:18|| Front Page Top

#6 This is the old PLO method of gaining cover : create "splinter groups" that operate the way that you wish but are "separate" from the main organization. Also, an Islamic variation on the Sinn Fein/IRA gambit used in Northern Ireland.
Posted by Shieldwolf 2006-09-28 00:28||   2006-09-28 00:28|| Front Page Top

#7 Also done in the Philippines - the MILF will soon splinter into a skeleton 'MILF' crew to tie the government's hands while the bulk of them join some new group making new demands.

An old Muslim trick.
Posted by CrazyFool 2006-09-28 00:32||   2006-09-28 00:32|| Front Page Top

#8 Who couldn't love a face like that?
Posted by Gladys 2006-09-28 00:48||   2006-09-28 00:48|| Front Page Top

#9 I am with twobyfour


Sadr and Iran are using this BS line to have thier cake and eat it too. Sadr/Iran is allowed to keep the choas rolling in Iraq to help continue to tie down US forces while at the sametime by claiming these guys are rogue not regulars they can limit the US retaliation and keep US from sweeping Tater and all his boys back into Iran were they belong.

We should play along for awhile as long as he allows US to chop out sections of his Mehdi boys while the rest stand by. Especially if they give US some intel (which I doubt but it will let US determine the truth to Sadr's claim). Although we should continue to round up his boys until we cross that line and Sadr jumps allowing US to punch his card. We should round up not just the rogue names he gives US but everyone we think is a major Mehdi asset along the way.

Posted by C-Low 2006-09-28 00:50||   2006-09-28 00:50|| Front Page Top

#10 Here is the quote I thought I had seen

"Most describe themselves as Mahdi Army members, the official said, and even get money from Mr. Sadr’s organization, but “are effectively beyond his control.” "

Let me get this straight they are trying to sell US the BS line that Sadr is funding, arming, supporting these rogue groups who still even openly claim themseleves as Mehdi BUT Sadr has no control over them.

My BS meter just spun around full circle and broke off.
Posted by C-Low 2006-09-28 00:54||   2006-09-28 00:54|| Front Page Top

#11 That sounds like a question for his urologist.

Get Depends, Tator
Posted by Captain America 2006-09-28 01:03||   2006-09-28 01:03|| Front Page Top

#12 I love 'em them french fried per-Taters, mmmm-hmm

/Billy Bob Thornton, Of Mice and Men
Posted by Victoria">Victoria  2006-09-28 01:20|| http://futuremd.blogspot.com/]">[http://futuremd.blogspot.com/]  2006-09-28 01:20|| Front Page Top

#13 Who couldn't love a face like that?

His mother. And his girlfriend. And his dentist. And his favorite goat.
Posted by gorb 2006-09-28 02:40||   2006-09-28 02:40|| Front Page Top

#14 I call B.S.
In these societies, no-one does anything with-out either authorization and/or pay.

Someone is paying these "rouge elements". Tater, thru cutouts IMO.
They are about as rouge as the various fatah "splinters".
Tater is emulating Arafish(tm).
Posted by N guard. 2006-09-28 05:15||   2006-09-28 05:15|| Front Page Top

#15 You're all just spinning your wheels. The one and only way to get traction against Moqtada Sadr is to cut his legs out from under him.

“They’re not sure who will come out on top, so they fund everybody,” the official said of Iran.

TAKE IRAN OFF-LINE, NOW!

Denied Iran's support, Sadr almost instantly becomes irelevant. Without the massive capital influx coming from Tehran's mullahs, his entire house of cards will collapse in a few weeks. Iran's tentacles are twisting the blade in so many of the Middle East's worst and most intractable conflicts that only by hacking them off will we make any progress.

In the short term, we need to arm and train the locals to instantly blow away anybody stupid enough who walks out the door clad entitrely in black. Once a few dozen of these wannabe Darth Vaders start rotting in the street, Sadr's power base will begin to erode permanently.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2006-09-28 06:15||   2006-09-28 06:15|| Front Page Top

#16 I smell plausibility for defeat in detail.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-09-28 06:50||   2006-09-28 06:50|| Front Page Top

#17 My BS meter just spun around full circle and broke off.

Mine shot flames twenty feet into the air.
Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford  2006-09-28 07:12|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2006-09-28 07:12|| Front Page Top

#18 Even Mr. Sadr, who fashions himself as the quintessential Iraqi nationalist, has reached out to Iran’s government, making a very public trip to Iran for talks early this year.

It was at this point in the article, when my bullshit detector spun around three times, emitted a horrible, skull-rattlingly high-pitched whine, and shatterd violently, leaving three smoking holes in my cubicle walls and a disgusting, lingering stench composed of two-parts sulfur and one-part bovine flatulence.

I mean really. Next thing you know, they'll ask us to believe that Noam Chomsky was a cold warrior.
Posted by Mitch H.">Mitch H.  2006-09-28 08:31|| http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/]">[http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/]  2006-09-28 08:31|| Front Page Top

#19 You could look it up, Mitch. Just ask Hugo.
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2006-09-28 08:46||   2006-09-28 08:46|| Front Page Top

#20 Standard practice for crushing a rebellion:

1) Call the guy in government

2) Wait, if necessary help a bit, until some people of the former rebellion beome disenchanted
because Big Rebel doesn't deliver everything, everywhere, instantly

3) Spread some rumors of corruption, preferrently with some of the payments being in sex. This way you break his influence and his followers will not riot at end of scenario

3) As soon as some disenchanted of his former movement do something wrong, even reckless driving
acuse the guy of having broken the treaty, arrest him in his ministry and execute him. Preferrently in public.

4) At this point the vast majority of the former
rebels have left clandestinity, have become fed up (after seeing that their idol was corrupt) and just in case you can arrest some of their more bellicose no longer clandestine leaders. You will probably have a new rebellion but only a fraction of what it was.
Posted by JFM">JFM  2006-09-28 08:51||   2006-09-28 08:51|| Front Page Top

#21 divide and conquer.
Posted by anon 2006-09-28 08:52||   2006-09-28 08:52|| Front Page Top

#22 they'll ask us to believe that Noam Chomsky was a cold warrior.

Stranger things have happened -- but not many!
Posted by lotp 2006-09-28 09:13||   2006-09-28 09:13|| Front Page Top

#23 JFM: each successive time the US has "made a deal" with Sadr, his movement has gotten stronger, not weaker.
Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2006-09-28 10:16||   2006-09-28 10:16|| Front Page Top

#24 Mich "Next thing you know, they'll ask us to believe that Noam Chomsky "

He was a cold warrior ;;;; just for the WRONG SIDE just like TODAY.
Posted by C-Low 2006-09-28 10:38||   2006-09-28 10:38|| Front Page Top

#25 "Tater Totenkopf" heh heh....genius there twobyfour!
Posted by Rex Mundi 2006-09-28 11:13||   2006-09-28 11:13|| Front Page Top

#26 nitpicking, but it's Slingblade, not Mice and Men
Posted by Frank G 2006-09-28 12:14||   2006-09-28 12:14|| Front Page Top

#27 JFM: each successive time the US has "made a deal" with Sadr, his movement has gotten stronger, not weaker.

They didn't putn him in government and they didn't execite him.
Posted by JFM">JFM  2006-09-28 12:20||   2006-09-28 12:20|| Front Page Top

#28  The radical Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr has lost control of portions of his Mahdi Army militia that are splintering off into freelance death squads and criminal gangs,

So he won't mind if we kill them.

Mike
Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2006-09-28 12:46||   2006-09-28 12:46|| Front Page Top

#29 jfm: They don't have to put him in government if he has his own.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2006-09-28 12:51||   2006-09-28 12:51|| Front Page Top

#30 Not a single named source – check
NYT (usually synonymous with above) – checkDefeatism of article not supported by article itself – check
Good news disguised as bad - check

Let’s take a look at this article, shall we, because what it really seems to say is that Sadr and 2/3 of his army have joined the political process. And the remaining 1/3 are fractured and have no central control. Iran doesn’t know who to support, but, according to this article, apparently isn’t supporting Sadr – rather the Iranians are throwing money and arms at a bunch of guys helter skelter because none of them are strong enough to come out on top. Additionally, the article concludes that Sadr is looking for discipline to consolidate his power (apparently through the political process, if we are to believe the first half of the article) and is expanding his influence into areas such as of Kirkuk and in Diyala Province, both mixed-population areas north of Baghdad where sectarian disputes have been on the rise. There, he is trying to appeal by casting himself as a defender of Shiites against Kurdish and Sunni Arab factions.

And Sadr is no longer fighting against Americans and seems to be cooperating with American forces to help them get some of the rouge guys, like the Abu Dera guy.


For the interested – here is a more detailed breakdown:

But as Mr. Sadr has taken a more active role in the government, as many as a third of his militiamen have grown frustrated with the constraints of compromise and have broken off, often selling their services to the highest bidders,

sooo...Sadar has lost control of his army because he joined the political process along with apparently 2/3 of his army. The remaining one third has become rogue killers who are being supported by Iran - who throws money at all of them because they do not know who will come out on top.

It answered his call to battle American forces in two uprisings in 2004, and stopped fighting when he ordered it. But as the violence in Iraq has spread, evidence of freelancing Shiites has accumulated

Author implies that evidence of freelancing Shiites has accumulated but, and the author is unclear here, Is this the same 1/3 of his fighters who were fighting against Americans but no longer heed Tater’s calls to stop killing and join the political process. I mean – cause they weren’t in the political process before so one might write that Sadr got 2/3 or his army to join the political process and only 1/3 are still out killing Americans and Sunnis.

Mr. Sadr is still immensely powerful, with as many as 7,000 militiamen in Baghdad, the official said. And the cleric has turned that firepower into political might. His candidate list won about 30 seats in Parliament this year, one of the largest shares. The participation was a central goal for American officials, who tried for months to persuade him to stop fighting and enter politics

So the Americans have achieved their central goal of getting Sadr to fight using politics instead of murder.

Still, six major leaders here no longer answer to Mr. Sadr’s organization, according to the intelligence official. Most describe themselves as Mahdi Army members, the official said, and even get money from Mr. Sadr’s organization, but “are effectively beyond his control.” Some of those who moved away from Mr. Sadr saw him as too accommodating to the United States. Others saw him as too bound by politics, particularly as killings of Shiite civilians in mixed neighborhoods began to soar.

Why doesn’t the author name the six major leaders? Again, this paragraph seems to really say that Sadr has joined the political process and due to the process, these six mysterious leaders are no longer beholden to Sadr. Is that not a good thing?

“They’re not content to sit there and just defend their family on the street corner,” the official said. “They want to go out and take on what they view as Al Qaeda or Baathists or both in aggressive measure.”

Sadr’s army members are killing AQ. Is that a bad thing? And he uses the words Batthists here instead of Sunnis. Why?

He started against the Americans, but he moved on to killing Sunnis,” said Sattar Awad, a 29-year-old resident of the district. “People here look at him as a brave man.”

I would consider the fact that they are no longer killing Americans to be a good thing – worthy of of note. But this author works for the NYT, so of course that would disappoint him. Question – where was this author when the Sunnis were killing Shia and Kurds. Answer – sucking up to Saddam at the central bureau no doubt.

Although the splintering has solved some problems for the American military, it has raised new ones. “In some ways it makes it easier for me because I now have digestible doses I can deal with,” said a senior American military official at a briefing on Wednesday, also in Baghdad. “At the same time it creates problems because they are harder to find when they are splintered.”

Nothing wrong with that statement. Probably true. But the author almost makes it sound like it’s a bad thing rather than a good thing that 2/3 of Sadr’s army has apparently joined the political process and only the remaining 1/3 is splintered and still fighting.

The splintering has changed the tone of the American military’s interaction with the Mahdi Army in Sadr City. In past years, American forays into the area would often draw a storm of grenade attacks. But recent American moves into the area have been carried out relatively peacefully: Mr. Sadr has not ordered attacks because the men being sought were freelancers like Abu Dera, the intelligence officer said.

So, if I were to read between the lines, it almost sounds like Sadr is helping the American army get the rouge guys like Abu Dera.

And finally, the last three paragraphs I summed up above, it appears that that Sadr is looking for discipline to consolidate his power (through the political process) and is expanding his influence into areas such as of Kirkuk and in Diyala Province, both mixed-population areas north of Baghdad where sectarian disputes have been on the rise. There, he is trying to appeal by casting himself as a defender of Shiites against Kurdish and Sunni Arab factions and that Sadr is no longer fighting against Americans and even better, seems to be cooperating with American forces to help them get some of the rouge guys, like the Abu Dera

So this is really a good news article. Would we expect anything less from the NYT to spin it into bad?
Posted by anon 2006-09-28 12:52||   2006-09-28 12:52|| Front Page Top

#31 KUT - A spokesman for the good cop political movement of Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr in Wasit province said seven of its bad cop Mehdi Army militiamen were killed and 18 posted as red mist missing, along with nine wounded, after an airstrike on the village of Sayafiya, west of Suwayra and 50 km (30 miles) south of Baghdad early on Tuesday. The spokesman, Hameed al-Zargani, said the Mehdi Army was engaged in a gunbattle with Delta Force unidentified gunmen when bombs fell on the village. The U.S. military, the only force with such air power in Iraq, had no immediate comment. Maybe Allan sent down a bolt of Lightning!
Posted by GolfBravoUSMC 2006-09-28 14:01||   2006-09-28 14:01|| Front Page Top

#32 I kinda have to agree with anon here. This is clearly a case of the glass is 2/3 full. While the NYTimes is trying to spin it as the place is just continuing to spiral out of control when really it is only a 1/3 of Mooky's "Sadr Army" that has left the fold.
Posted by TomAnon 2006-09-28 15:09||   2006-09-28 15:09|| Front Page Top

#33 You guys all make good points about this being an intentional splinter for deniability but I have a slightly different take.

I think Tater grouped a bunch of gangs and yahoos together and barely had control over them in the first place. They were happy to allow him to claim them because he covered them to some extent ubt now that he's making demands they're all "see you later, tater."
Posted by rjschwarz 2006-09-28 15:19||   2006-09-28 15:19|| Front Page Top

#34 CrazyFool, it isn't just a Muslim trick. Consider the IRA, the Provisional IRA, the Real IRA, the Imaginary IRA, the Transcendental IRA, the IRA Suicide Squad, the Orthodox IRA, the Reform IRA, the IRA in Exile, etc.
Posted by Eric Jablow">Eric Jablow  2006-09-28 15:33||   2006-09-28 15:33|| Front Page Top

#35 SPLITTERS!
Posted by mojo">mojo  2006-09-28 16:32||   2006-09-28 16:32|| Front Page Top

#36 I have only one question. Why is this fat, useless f**kturd still breathing my air ?
Posted by SOP35/Rat 2006-09-28 16:57||   2006-09-28 16:57|| Front Page Top

#37 Why is this fat, useless f**kturd still breathing my air ?

A devastating lack of political will inspired by stuck-on-stupid obsession with religiosity.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2006-09-28 17:09||   2006-09-28 17:09|| Front Page Top

#38 Thanks for the obscure 'Life of Brian' reference mojo.
Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-09-28 17:11||   2006-09-28 17:11|| Front Page Top

#39 LOL Eric!
Posted by 6 2006-09-28 17:51||   2006-09-28 17:51|| Front Page Top

#40 Stop! The only way to settle this is to mash Tater and tots (TM)
Posted by Captain America 2006-09-28 18:14||   2006-09-28 18:14|| Front Page Top

#41 The problem is Islam. We can write post after post addressing each and every *symptom* of the problem, but until the reasonable folks in the world reach the conclusion that reason and logic aren't abundent or appreciated in the Islamic world, we're all just wasting our time. Islam must be ridiculed and relegated to ash heap of history--until then, there are no "solutions" to any of these problems that will solved for more than the 30 minutes it will take for some Islamist in power somewhere to figure out a new way of dredging up the same ridiculous offenses over and over and over and over and over.
Posted by Crusader 2006-09-28 19:53||   2006-09-28 19:53|| Front Page Top

#42 
Worth a Check out..

IraqiPatrol Blog

Beta translated

After a fierce battle in “Khan Bani Sa’ad” Diyala governorate north of Baghdad with “Mahdi Army”, Iraqi resistance succeeded to capture one of the “Mahdi Aramy”.

They found a complete modern communications system manufacturing in the Ministry of Defense of Iran believed to be used as a direct contact with the Iranians.

“Mahdi Army” members were launching mortars on the city before they found themselves besieged by the villagers and the resistance.

Posted by RD 2006-09-28 20:59||   2006-09-28 20:59|| Front Page Top

#43 cool, RD. Broadcast it to the entire Iraqi nation, Iran, Saudi, etc....
Posted by Frank G 2006-09-28 21:07||   2006-09-28 21:07|| Front Page Top

23:37 Zenster
23:32 JosephMendiola
23:29 gorb
23:23 Zenster
23:20 Mike
23:19 gorb
23:19 Zenster
23:17 DMFD
23:15 gorb
23:15 Mike
23:09 Zenster
23:03 Ol Dirty American
23:03 Zenster
23:00 Captain America
22:59 gorb
22:59 Zenster
22:59 Pappy
22:59 Classical_Liberal
22:55 gromgoru
22:54 Super Hose
22:50 gromgoru
22:49 Zenster
22:47 Frank G
22:46 gromgoru









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