Article

2005-01-15 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Fred 2005-01-15 00:00:00|| || Front Page|| [6 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The system works.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-15 6:30:34 AM|| 2005-01-15 6:30:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I'll suspend judgement till an officer is convicted of something.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-15 8:47:41 AM|| 2005-01-15 8:47:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 The US soldier who led a band of sadistic guards in abusing prisoners...

Mrs. D, looking for a scapegoat or trying to determine if there was an OIC on duty at the time? The non-attendent chain of command already has been relieved of authority. I'm sure an Article 32 investigation is done. However, unless someone can come up with concrete evidence that can stand up in court that orders were issued, there is unlikely to be a courts martial. Courts martials are courts of law and subject to the standard Federal rules of evidence. Though, I suspect, the officers in the chain are, for all intents and purposes, career terminated as a minimum. Somewhere in the Army reforms of the 80's a lot of authority and responsibility was placed back into the NCO corps. That ment getting the officers out of the day to day management of the troops. For the vast majority, the trust is well placed, but in this case it failed.

Posted by Don 2005-01-15 10:39:08 AM|| 2005-01-15 10:39:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 This guys had no business being in the military - his performance in the civlian world pointed to the problems he caused in the military.

The Guard was too often a "club" type atmosphere (before now), and allowed incompetents like Graner to exist.

Posted by OldSpook 2005-01-15 12:26:39 PM|| 2005-01-15 12:26:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 but Aris says you RBers support torture. Feh. Graner should be an old man by the time he gets out.... too old to cause more trouble. Good

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-15 12:39:09 PM|| 2005-01-15 12:39:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 I said *many* Rantburgers support torture. Which is a plain fact, not something you can dispute.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-15 12:47:51 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-15 12:47:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 I believe I have. Graner's an asshole and got what he deserved, and would have without the MSM bandwagon. Buh-bye

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-15 12:49:31 PM|| 2005-01-15 12:49:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 On the other hand Frank claims that *nobody* in Rantburg supports torture.

I think each can judge by himself who has the firmest grip on reality, and who's in deep ignorance (or atleast building a home on the shores of the Nile).

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-15 12:50:47 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-15 12:50:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 :-)

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-15 12:54:51 PM|| 2005-01-15 12:54:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 I think each can judge by himself who has the firmest grip on reality

Umm #8, Yes, I think most Rantburgers have a very good idea on whether or not you have a grip.

Posted by Doc8404 2005-01-15 1:04:27 PM|| 2005-01-15 1:04:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Have I seen you here before, "Doc"?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-15 1:09:30 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-15 1:09:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 WTF? Who the fuck are you to question someone else's right to post?

You really do suck like an F5, lol!

Posted by .com 2005-01-15 1:12:59 PM|| 2005-01-15 1:12:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 you wouldn't have noticed Doc before, Aris - he addresses the topics

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-15 1:14:54 PM|| 2005-01-15 1:14:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 "...*many* Rantburgers support torture. Which is a plain fact..."
Citation, please? Another sorry twisting by Aris to inflame (Arisify) yet another thread.

Posted by Tom 2005-01-15 1:25:33 PM|| 2005-01-15 1:25:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 WTF? Who the fuck are you to question someone else's right to post?

Actually I meant to question his identity, not his "right to post".

Tom> Citation, please?

As I offered yesterday:
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.asp?HC=Main&D=2005-01-12&ID=53504

I count atleast five regular posters (in that thread alone) which are willing to give torture a good try.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-15 1:39:28 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-15 1:39:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 I would only torture you, Aris.

Posted by Tom 2005-01-15 1:41:37 PM|| 2005-01-15 1:41:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Who cares about what *you* would do?

It's like Frank to think that when I say "many Rantburgers" you two believe I refer to the two of you, and respond about your own personal beliefs on torture. Who gives a damn?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-15 1:43:37 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-15 1:43:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Actually, Aris, I was not concerned what you thought about me -- I just thought you were painting Rantburgers other than yourself with a pretty broad brush. And I still believe it to be so.

Posted by Tom 2005-01-15 2:26:05 PM|| 2005-01-15 2:26:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Aris, I think you're out of line.

"Many Rantburgers" in fact do NOT support torture. As a moderator I keep a close eye on the comments, and it's my informed opinion that Rantburg as a community, and the very large majority of Rantburgers, does not support torture. That should be distinguished from the use of some pressure techniques in interrogation, which some find distasteful, and some feel are necessary (I think they're both).

As to your other complaints about being 'stalked', it's been our policy (to this point) to let regulars post as they wish with very wide latitude. Fred, Emily, Steve and I are too busy for any other policy. We ban the trolls but we're rarely going to police spats.

That said, you have a choice: you can stay (and you're welcome to) or you can go. If you post, you might expect that a few of your friends here will respond to you on a regular basis. That's the way the ball bounces.

For everyone else: save the venom for the true enemies of civilization. We know who they are; that's a primary purpose of Rantburg. It's fine to state opinions strongly; we all benefit from that. But let's maintain a standard of civility in addressing each other. Thanks,

Posted by Steve White 2005-01-15 2:39:25 PM|| 2005-01-15 2:39:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 For some time I have read RB and enjoyed immensely the banter and commentary. I do however, lack a perspective on several personalities. Aris, could you explain a little of the background to give me a perspective to your point of view. Especially interested in palce and education?

Posted by Schmoe,LTC Ret 2005-01-15 2:44:50 PM|| 2005-01-15 2:44:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 I count atleast five regular posters (in that thread alone) which are willing to give torture a good try.

I didn't post, but make that six, Aris. And that isn't the whole of Rantburgers, as you have consistently (and incorrectly ) stated.

And Aris, so you can solidly lump me in with those folks, let me state that even if turture doesn't 'work' it's not about gaining information. It is about and always will be about power. The power of the interrogator over the prisoner.

So if the question is to torture to gain information, I'd say, yes, you are wasting your time, but if the purpose is what the purpose of torture always has been, for the holding authority to impress its power over the detainee, then torture truley does 'work.'

Graner is a buffoon, Ears deep in soemthing he knew nothing about and stupid enough to let it be photographed.

And one last thought: The prisoners who were 'tortured?' It suck to be them.

I do not support torture as a routine policy, but I want torture to be an option. Call it another tool in the fight against terrorists.

Posted by badanov 2005-01-15 2:45:30 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2005-01-15 2:45:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 I'll suspend judgement till an officer is convicted of something.

The most any officer has been accused of is failure to supervise those under their command. That has ended a lot of careers, of course, but it doesn't rise to the level of criminal activity.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-01-15 2:47:37 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-01-15 2:47:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 I'll be a contrarian and note that robust discussion of whether and what types of pressure or torture are legitimate is a very good and necessary thing. It's pretty clear that the Bush admin is, understandably, still trying to figure this out. Much better in the long run for a democracy to have an open discussion, as messy, embarrassing and unpleasant as it is, about what's required and appropriate and acceptable, than for any administration to grope along with no public or democratic scrutiny.

Which is to say as f*****g annoying as Aris's gainsaying is at times, he has nonetheless done Rantburg a service by asking the very hard question of all of us, Do you support torture, and if so, then which types and under which circumstances? That said, Aris can sit down now.

/soapbox

Myself, I think it's absolutely necessary to leave such techniques to a tiny handful of professional interrogators who specialize in such methods and who apply them in rare cases and only under explicit authorization by the President.

Cumbersome? Not really. True "ticking bomb" cases are quite rare. As are Khalid Muhammed characters. In any event, the President should be intimately involved in such cases.

That is, screw the notion of an abstract policy, which can and will be abused by sadists and people under pressure to produce results, and put the onus on the individual who, of all of us, is the one most accountable to both our safety and our democratic and moral principles, among which the promotion of Iraqi democracy is cetainly critical.

If Bush makes the wrong call consistently-- sacrificing either our security or our princples and Iraq's democratic progression-- then he and his party will certainly pay for it.

Posted by lex 2005-01-15 3:04:39 PM|| 2005-01-15 3:04:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 In other words, pragmatism, not a priori abstract policies, and democratic accountability. Aren't pragmatism and accountability the distinguishing features of American democracy? There's something very, well, European about the notion of a few government officials trying to devise a legalistic code to cover such an extremely complex, amorphous issue like this one and then apply it to all kinds of circumstances.

Which is one reason we have seen such 20-century Europe-style abuses of power as what happened at Abu G. Let's get back to American accountability, pragmatism, and common sense.

Posted by lex 2005-01-15 3:09:52 PM|| 2005-01-15 3:09:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Don, Sorry to be so long in replying. Lots of errands.

If I read you correctly you are saying that since the chain of command was relieved of command, you assume an Art. 32 has been done and the folks in the chain of command will not be promoted and are thus effectively terminated the matter is fully investigated and the system worked.

At the risk of being tarred as in league with he-who-shall-not-be-named, it seems to me some officer was responsible for knowing what was going on in his or her command. Remember when the photos came out they had a show and tell for Congress critters and it came out that there were thousands of photos and videos. It seems that this was not a single occasion or something nipped in the bud. Some officer was directly responsible for those people.

The reforms of the 80's did not absolve officers from responsibility for what happens under their command. Some officer was either a) not performing the necessary oversight or b) was involved. That officer and all above should be prosecuted until we get to the officer above the one not performing the necessary oversight.

The system worked until the photos were leaked. Then the system broke thanks to some rat in the military and the MSM scum who thought it would be a career maker...Mary Mapes, if I recall correctly. The domestic reaction was so out of proportion that the military, very possibly pursuant to civilian orders, may have capped prosecutions at the lowest level possible, the incredibly unattractive Sgt. Graner. And I'm not sure that would bave been a bad decision given the domestic and internation brouhaha it became.

But, I'm just very leery of only enlisted personnel getting prosecuted.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-15 3:42:12 PM|| 2005-01-15 3:42:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Robert, I certainly don't know the UCMJ, but some officer was derelict in his/her duty and brought dishonor to the service. I always thought those were court martial offences.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-15 3:46:13 PM|| 2005-01-15 3:46:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Lex, I agree with everything you have written but I am torn by this:

and only under explicit authorization by the President.

I don't think the president's authority ought to be that finely grained in such an instance. Dubya's style has been to set the goals, set the policies, hire the best people, and then keep the troops rallied. It is a tried and proven management style that has been shown to work everytime it has been tried.

I think it is bad policy to have a president so closely involved in such cases inasmuch as he may be responsible for what happens, ultimately.

OTOH, it makes sense for Dubya to approve any and all cases of torture to extract inforamation.

Help me out here...

Posted by badanov 2005-01-15 4:02:14 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org/title-boris.gif] 2005-01-15 4:02:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 I certainly don't know the UCMJ, but some officer was derelict in his/her duty and brought dishonor to the service. I always thought those were court martial offences.

Any violation of the UCMJ can be a court martial offense. The crux is whether a court martial is warranted or the use of non-judicial punishment (NJP) is warranted instead.

That's going to depend on what the investigation comes up with and what is recommended based on that investigation. One may come up with enough material to indicate some officer was lax and ineffective, but not enough to get a court martial conviction. Hence it may be referred to NJP. It may be a career-ender, it may not. The accused could always certainly demand a court martial.

Posted by Pappy 2005-01-15 5:35:11 PM|| 2005-01-15 5:35:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 What else do you expect from Aris?

He is a proven liar and bigot, as evidenced by his posts elswhere here on Rantburg. He even equivocated and dissembled aobu the definition of a lie in order to avoide apologizing for his bigoted lie.

Posted by OldSpook 2005-01-15 5:49:02 PM|| 2005-01-15 5:49:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Mrs. Davis. You are corredt. The commandant of the prison was derelict in her duty to surpervise the prison. It was her job to know everthing that went on in those cell blocks. She chose to delegate to others her responsibilities. This DOES NOT absolve her. She should have never delegated her responsibilities to anyone. I have a hard time comprehending how she got as far up as she did.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2005-01-15 5:50:12 PM|| 2005-01-15 5:50:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Well , cos im drunk , I will say it ...

Which between Frank and Aris is gonna apply the lube . You both have taken debate to a whole new level , are you secret lovers , cos both of ya sound like the arguementative ex wife of a jilted generation , one im only too glad to just watch from afar , and throw handouts to , as and when needed . Sheesh both of ya need to take up fly-fishing or something ..

Sorry if you feel I insulted you both but ffs , sort ya selves out ..

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-15 5:55:59 PM|| 2005-01-15 5:55:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 you both lock horns on every issue , does that mean ya both equally intelligent or something ?

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-15 5:57:57 PM|| 2005-01-15 5:57:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Graner just got 10 years in prison.

Posted by Tom 2005-01-15 5:59:30 PM|| 2005-01-15 5:59:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 MacNails - ya get a mulligan for being drunk. Otherwise I'd kick your ass

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-15 6:01:50 PM|| 2005-01-15 6:01:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Deacon, Ã don't see her as innocent, by any stretch, but she is a General. Aren't there a few folks between the sergeants and the General? What about them?

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-15 6:02:22 PM|| 2005-01-15 6:02:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 hehe Frank , ya know i lub ya really , just *cough* baiting .. not wanna bite ? :)))

Posted by MacNails 2005-01-15 6:05:26 PM|| 2005-01-15 6:05:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Ten out of a possible seventeen? He could be out before the last troop leaves Iraq.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-15 6:05:42 PM|| 2005-01-15 6:05:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 think the staff filling that gap won't get punished, Mrs D? I would certainly hope ALL knowing persons do....

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-15 6:13:10 PM|| 2005-01-15 6:13:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Frank, I suspect they will. I just think, going back to my original comment, the system did not get a chance to work. Had it been left to work I think the punishments would have been more up front and set a better example. As it is now, it will be done quietly out of sight. That's not the way the system should work.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-15 6:37:24 PM|| 2005-01-15 6:37:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 true - but wasn't that due to the MSM feeding frenzy to damage Bush as well as Gen. Janice's extended media appearances/offensive to slough off blame?

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-15 6:48:01 PM|| 2005-01-15 6:48:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 I can't believe this asshole got away with what he did. He was screwing at least two other soldiers while pulling his shit with the inmates.

And the guy has a family. I feel for the kids.

Posted by Captain America 2005-01-15 7:42:57 PM|| 2005-01-15 7:42:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Frank, As I said in #25, The system worked until the photos were leaked. Then the system broke thanks to some rat in the military and the MSM scum who thought it would be a career maker...Mary Mapes, if I recall correctly.

btw, how did we dearisify this thread? We need a lessons learned analysis of this thread.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-15 7:47:52 PM|| 2005-01-15 7:47:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 easy - he left?

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-15 8:07:40 PM|| 2005-01-15 8:07:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 See #19, Mrs. D. I think Steve White gets the credit.

Posted by Tom 2005-01-15 8:14:11 PM|| 2005-01-15 8:14:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Mrs. D, me thinks this quote from #19, dearisfied the thread. Someone named Steve White.

"That said, you have a choice: you can stay (and you're welcome to) or you can go. If you post, you might expect that a few of your friends here will respond to you on a regular basis."

Posted by Poison Reverse 2005-01-15 8:15:18 PM|| 2005-01-15 8:15:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 Bush got hired and Mary Mapes got fired.

Posted by Poison Reverse 2005-01-15 8:16:30 PM|| 2005-01-15 8:16:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Some Rantburgers support torture. Anybody who has posted opionions opposing torture knows that obvious fact from the angry responses he receives.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2005-01-15 11:39:21 PM|| 2005-01-15 11:39:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 This guys had no business being in the military - his performance in the civlian world pointed to the problems he caused in the military.

The Guard was too often a "club" type atmosphere (before now), and allowed incompetents like Graner to exist.

Posted by OldSpook 2005-01-15 12:26:39 PM|| 2005-01-15 12:26:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 What else do you expect from Aris?

He is a proven liar and bigot, as evidenced by his posts elswhere here on Rantburg. He even equivocated and dissembled aobu the definition of a lie in order to avoide apologizing for his bigoted lie.

Posted by OldSpook 2005-01-15 5:49:02 PM|| 2005-01-15 5:49:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by OldSpook 2005-01-15 12:26:39 PM|| 2005-01-15 12:26:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by OldSpook 2005-01-15 5:49:02 PM|| 2005-01-15 5:49:02 PM|| Front Page Top

23:52 Edward Yee
23:39 Mike Sylwester
23:25 Barbara Skolaut
23:22 Barbara Skolaut
23:19 Barbara Skolaut
23:00 Rearden
22:46 Anonymous4724
22:45 JackAssFestival
21:29 Tom
21:24 BH
21:22 Pappy
21:22 2xstandard
21:21 Tom
21:20 BH
21:08 Atomic Conspiracy
21:02 Cyber Sarge
20:56 Bomb-a-rama
20:46 Poison Reverse
20:44 Bomb-a-rama
20:39 Alaska Paul
20:34 Poison Reverse
20:29 Anonymoose
20:19 2xstandard
20:16 Poison Reverse