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2004-10-12 Britain

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Posted by tipper 2004-10-12 11:51|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I'd like to hear Bulldog or some of the other UK Rantburgers comment on this. Is the author over the top? Is what she claims the real deal among the chattering classes (as it is this whom she appears to hang out with) or is it more pervasive. This enquiring mind would like to know.

Posted by remote man 2004-10-12 12:28:31 PM|| 2004-10-12 12:28:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Tipper - might I suggest changing the title to something discriptive of the contents of the story, that will get more people to open it? Perhaps even excerpt it for those who won't read the whole thing?

(Full disclosure - I was going to post it, but saw you beat me to it.)

I'd be interested in the British and European R'burgers' take on this also. I never ran into this when I lived in Europe (I did hear of anti-Jewish sentiments in Germany, but not so overt as in this story), but then I came home in 1973. No more than the usual "anti-Ami" crap - there are assholes everywhere - when I went back to visit, but the last time was 6 months before the Berlin Wall fell so I'm probably out of touch.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-10-12 2:02:46 PM|| 2004-10-12 2:02:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Full disclosure - I was going to post it, but saw you beat me to it.

Same here. Anecdotal evidence, sure, but accumulated over decades from a London-based expat, and consistent with my and my friends' experiences.

Sad to say it but combine the disgraceful national reaction in the Bigley affair with the British public's clear trend toward demonizing of Israel and America-the-fanatically-religious, and it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Britain is in serious danger of going down the Spanish path of moral confusion and cultural decadence.

Posted by lex 2004-10-12 2:08:57 PM|| 2004-10-12 2:08:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 I know this is a peculiarly American way of looking at it, but I can't help but wonder whether the rise of blatant anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism (and general moonbatiness) in Britain correlates to their loss of self-defense rights.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-10-12 2:18:27 PM|| 2004-10-12 2:18:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 A charitable explanation for the repeated abuse heaped on the head of this obviously anglophiliac woman by her London neighbors, acquaintances and even friends (!) is that your average Briton, like your average, no-better-than-he-should-be citizen anywhere, resents being dragged into, as he sees it, someone else's quarrel. In other words, blame the "troubles" on the mere existence of that sh*tty little country and its American protector.

The sentiment, if not the logic, is perhaps understandable. A red-headed Irish American encountered a milder, more innocent version of this kind of weary resentment on his travels through Britain in 1980-81 ("what's in that bag of yours?"). One can sympathize with that era's Englishmen who were annoyed that "bloody Irish sods" were "bringin' all their troubles over 'ere."

And we of course have long had our Father Coughlins and other "limey"-bashers who preyed on fenianism and a certain kind of pigheaded midwestern isolationism. Today's jew-bashing and demonizing of "neo-cons" is perhaps only the European version of the Pat Buchanan/midwestern US/isolationist gripe about Israel having an "amen corner" in the White House. Combine that with the British/European media's ridiculous bleating about how BusHitlerAshcroft have transformed the US into a theocratic police state, and you get paranoia of the sort that greets Ms Gould and many other American expats in London these days.

But there's another explanation, one that Mark Steyn and Dr Anthony Daniels, whose Telegraph opinion piece was printed, have suggested: Blair's Britain is increasingly a morally decadent nation incapable of summoning a proper emotional and intellectual response to this war.

Posted by lex 2004-10-12 2:31:27 PM|| 2004-10-12 2:31:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 A nation that heaps up teddy bears for the whimpering victim of fascist monsters while heaping scorn on those who would seek to destroy that fascist scourge. No other word for it but decadence.

Posted by lex 2004-10-12 2:35:45 PM|| 2004-10-12 2:35:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 I think the British national psyche needs some time on the therapist's couch. Scratch that. What it needs is to stop acting out and get on its damn bike. Steyn and Dr. Daniels have got it right. Much of the current behavior of the Brits is downright embarrassing. Compare and contrast with the Australians.

Posted by Classical_Liberal 2004-10-12 2:50:32 PM|| 2004-10-12 2:50:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Decadent, yes; but we may wake up three weeks from tomorrow to find we've gone just as decadent ourselves.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-10-12 2:50:43 PM|| 2004-10-12 2:50:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Yes, portions of this country already have gone down the decadent path. Probably most of those living in the tonier parts of Manhattan, Cambridge, Hollywood, San Fran/Marin, Seattle and all the College Towns With a Foreign Policy.

But I would contend there remains a vast majority of Americans, not all of them religious or gun-owning or Republican-- or even pro-Bush-- who would fight these fascists with every ounce of their being. The ornery, anti-federalist, anti-bully "don't tread on me" spirit still holds sway in this country, as does an ability to make elementary moral distinctions.

Posted by lex 2004-10-12 2:57:45 PM|| 2004-10-12 2:57:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 The only thing that would enable Kerry to be elected IMHO is a $0.30+ spike in gas prices at the pump. I seriously doubt that this race will be close, if only because those voters who at this point are undecided are the ones who pay attention only to pocketbook and character issues. The economy's at worst a glass half-full: advantage Bush. As to character, what needs to be said?

Posted by lex 2004-10-12 3:34:25 PM|| 2004-10-12 3:34:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I mean the economy's at worst a glass half-empty. This election will really come down to a gut decision by millions of non-ideological, non-partisan voters as to which man is more trustworthy, likeable and reassuring in a deeply unstable, insecure era. And this decision will likely be made during the last 48 hours of the campaign.

I could be wrong, but I can't imagine that more of these voters will decide at the 11th hour that Kerry is more reassuring and likeable and reliable than Bush.

Posted by lex 2004-10-12 3:37:26 PM|| 2004-10-12 3:37:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Millions of people who haven't figured this whole thing out yet, exposed to a non-stop barrage of anti-Bush, anti-Republican propaganda from CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, NYT, MTV, and just about every Hollywood star you can name? I don't have much confidence in them.

As for the economy, the plain fact is we had a brief recession that was barely even detectable-- yet millions of idiots STILL buy the Democrats' "worst economy since the Great Depression" bullshit; look at the polls where people were asked what issue was most important to them.

Frankly, I find the notion that John Kerry could get more than about 5% of the vote to be utterly appalling.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-10-12 3:47:33 PM|| 2004-10-12 3:47:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Look, here's my essential point: I do not doubt that a large number of registered Democrats and a majority of independents in this country have more cojones and more contempt for fascist bullies than the British public have shown.

The average American today faces two sources of massive insecurity: a turbulent global economy characterized by shocks such as high oil prices and rapid technological change, and a murky, unprecedented global struggle against the jihadists.

The key social distinction here is not between Democrat ves Repub, or liberal vs conservative, or religious vs secular, but between those who are willing to fight for liberal western civilization vs those who would rather appease and make self-hating excuses for the jihadists. I have no doubt the most Americans fall into the former category. No doubt whatsoever.

Posted by lex 2004-10-12 4:03:35 PM|| 2004-10-12 4:03:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 but between those who are willing to fight for liberal western civilization vs those who would rather appease and make self-hating excuses for the jihadists. I have no doubt the most Americans fall into the former category. No doubt whatsoever. true lex....but not enough for my comfort

Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-10-12 4:58:40 PM|| 2004-10-12 4:58:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Rex,
If the president were elected by direct popular vote, I'd share your sentiments, but fortunately the dynamic of the Electoral College still gives an edge to the martial culture states of the South and West. Take courage.

Posted by lex 2004-10-12 5:19:55 PM|| 2004-10-12 5:19:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Thank God for the EC!!!!
For me, courage = a loaded 12 gauge riot pump and a tall beer. I do think that more Merkins are coming around to their senses, aided by the outright moonbattery of the LLL crowd. It'll just take time.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-10-12 5:31:48 PM|| 2004-10-12 5:31:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 There was also an article at RB from the Spectator by Niall Ferguson some days ago that advanced the thesis that the British were becoming more European with time and had been since the endo fo WWII. Ferguson goes inot some detail of how we contributed to this terrible situation. We really should readdress our policies toward Britain and Europe.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-12 6:07:15 PM|| 2004-10-12 6:07:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Mrs D,

Ferguson's more of a provocateur than anything else. I suppose he's a kind of idea entrepreneur who launches his latest intellectual product via OpEd pieces to gauge how well they'll sell in the media world.

First Niall was off on his rant about how the US needs to admit reality and openly embrace imperialism. This Ferguson rode, fairly hard, for about two years after 9/11, when he was visiting prof at NYU.

Then he sent up a trial balloon in a recent NYT piece alleging that Americans work harder than Euros because we're more religious (he says he's working on a book about this). I sent him and the NY Times a mildly sarcastic email pointing out that the longest hours are pulled in those bastions of American irreligiosity, Wall Street and Silicon Valley, and that it's the pro-family religious types who always manage to get home by 6pm. (Ferguson had the class to respond and thank me for "my thoughts.")

I suspect ol' Niall's just stirring the sh*t with his anti-Special Alliance piece as well. Think about it: what kind of crude analysis is it that posits a firm alliance based on the NYLON (NY-London) jet passenger traffic and then concludes that the alliance is in trouble because the vast majority of yanks and Britons do not cross the pond?

Anyone with a feel for the people can see that all this "people's Princess" touchy-feely Bigley BS came directly from the US! It's the anglicization of Oprah, the culture of sensitivity and narcissism. Anyone who visited Britain 25 years ago and goes back today will see Britain's become far more Americanized in many crucial senses: more capitalist, more racially integrated/multicultural, more open to the outside world, more cosmopolitan generally. I'd guess that Niall didn't even cross the Hudson in all his time at NYU, let alone get a feel for the South or the West.

The key to Britain is the calculations of the political elites. The British people are far more like Americans than they've ever been. What annoys me so much about the Bigley nonsense is the fear that our own media elites would likely play the same games (though the public reaction would likely be different). Yellow ribbons are a manifestation of creeping Bigley-ism.

Posted by lex 2004-10-12 6:22:23 PM|| 2004-10-12 6:22:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 We'l agre to disagree about Ferguson, but...

Creeping? Bigley-ism. Not in the Nation held hostage by Nightline for 400 days a quarter century ago. You are correct that the yellow ribbon thing is a bit much, expecially in blue country. But the People's Princess thing did set an international standard we have yet to meet.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-12 8:02:26 PM|| 2004-10-12 8:02:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Agree on the People's Princess. Hope you're right on the rest.

Posted by lex 2004-10-13 10:59:38 AM|| 2004-10-13 10:59:38 AM|| Front Page Top

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