Article

2004-06-10 Iraq-Jordan

U.S. General: Iraq Police Training a Flop

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Posted by Zenster 2004-06-10 2:36:18 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The soldiers didnât want to fight their own countrymen. Would you?" al-Sattar said..."Once there are division commanders and an Iraqi defense minister, the soldiers will start obeying orders because the orders come from an Iraqi leadership."
I don't see how an Iraqi leadership giving orders will make a heck of alot difference to the gut feeling Iraqi soldiers have that it's wrong to fight against fellow countrymen.

Posted by rex 2004-06-10 3:11:07 AM|| 2004-06-10 3:11:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 The soldiers didnât want to fight their own countrymen. Would you?" al-Sattar said..."Once there are division commanders and an Iraqi defense minister, the soldiers will start obeying orders because the orders come from an Iraqi leadership."

It's pretty funny how Iraqi commanders are such sleazebag liars with the usual twisty Arab logic. Iraqis had no problem killing hundreds of thousands of other Iraqis under Saddam, so it's interesting that they had problems fighting for a free country.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-06-10 5:57:50 AM|| [http://www.polipundit.com] 2004-06-10 5:57:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 I think the General is right - first you train the leaders then they lead the training of the grunts. Lets remember these people lived under a totalitarian despotic regime in which they made zip decisions on their own and could not act independently. This is going to take generations for them to realize the individual liberty that they now possess. In the interim, you need to boil a frog, in reverse, you might say.

Posted by Jack is Back! 2004-06-10 8:15:34 AM|| 2004-06-10 8:15:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 What a load of crap.

All of the security forces have been through a course, one course at least. No one should expect that they will have NYPD level cops out of that, but they don't need them. They need Iraqi cops who know how to deal with Iraqis, and that they have.

Anyone who expected the Iraqi police to fight Sadr's goons or the terrorists in Fallujah is just plain wrong. They were outnumbered and outgunned. A few did fight, but most, quite understandably, went home. I would suggest that NYPD or LAPD might do the same if confronted by RPG's and morters.

While some, SOME, ICDC and Iraqi Army units failed to perform their duties, most did and are.

The notion that we should have worked from the top down reflects the view of some who believe that most Baathists should get a bye and be integrated into the security services. General Petr... (sp) of the 101st is one leading proponent of this. It has two (at least) false premises as its base. That the ordinary Iraqi soldier or police officer is incapable of doing anything but following orders. And, that we must use the experienced (Baathist) leaders of the security services in order to preserve order.

Leadership training is something that takes years in the American military. What makes these folks think they can do it any faster in Iraq? All their point of view would do is establish that we really did not come to remove Saddam's goon squad, and that we just don't care who's in charge as long as they work for us.

Posted by Chuck Simmins 2004-06-10 8:46:12 AM|| [http://blog.simmins.org] 2004-06-10 8:46:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 another perspective from someone who was there:

http://www.thegreenside.com/story.asp?ContentID=9262

gives some hope that things may get better.

Posted by Anonymous5163 2004-06-10 8:56:57 AM|| 2004-06-10 8:56:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 chuck makes some good points, BUT - 1. Im not sure EVERY Iraqi general was one of Saddams goon squad. 2. David Petraeus(Sp?) seemed to do a pretty good job in Mosul. It certainly didnt turn into the hotbed that Fallujah did. I would tend to at least take his point of view seriously. Leadership training here isnt taking an 18 year old and starting him as a plebe. Its taking an experienced officer, vetting him, and providing sufficient training to integrate with coalition forces. And its my impression that all third world forces are more dependent on their leadership than US forces are.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-10 10:03:52 AM|| 2004-06-10 10:03:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 One thing that was seldom mentioned in connection with the April events was that the Iraqi army recruits had been explicitly told they would not be fighting fellow Iraqis -- their duties would relate to border and external security, what we would consider normal army duties. I believe that even given that, the performance of some army units was overlooked -- Marines have reported that some of the new army personnel did in fact enter the fray around Fallujah. Disappointing, but not all that surprising that with weak command chains, no coherent/credible political structure above them (recall the bickering and dissension in the IGC over Fallujah), and the background they have, most of the Iraqi units didn't post up. Only thing that's surprised me is that we haven't been able to better train and equip some police by this point. Lots of details in that, I'm sure, and I don't have them.

Posted by Verlaine 2004-06-10 11:00:20 AM|| 2004-06-10 11:00:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 There was this post from someone who was there in Fallujah with the Iraqis... I think you'll find him credible.

Posted by .com 2004-06-10 11:11:01 AM|| 2004-06-10 11:11:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 powerful, dot com.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-10 11:31:59 AM|| 2004-06-10 11:31:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 I don't understand what this blathering about not wanting to fight fellow Iraqis is all about. Those "fellow Iraqis" are largely standing in the way between Iraq and a brighter future. Those "fellow Iraqis" don't give a rat's ass about what's good for the country or the general population as long as they get what they want. They are ENEMIES OF IRAQ, no ifs, ands, or buts. This needs to be drummed into the heads of recruits for Iraq's police and military forces. These guys need to be made to understand LOGIC.

Sheesh, this seeming disconnect from reality and reason is maddening, to say the least.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-06-10 3:18:09 PM|| 2004-06-10 3:18:09 PM|| Front Page Top

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