Article

2004-05-06 Iraq-Jordan

A modest proposal from the blogosphere regarding Abu Ghraib

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Posted by Mike 2004-05-06 12:01:03 PM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 "What say you, fellow Ranters?"

I say it's time to stop this hysterical self-flagellation and hand-wringing.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-05-06 12:10:43 PM|| 2004-05-06 12:10:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 I agree. Those soldiers gave the most honorable, moral and professional military to ever walk the earth a black eye. An example must be made.

Posted by Damn_Proud_American 2004-05-06 12:11:08 PM|| [http://brighterfuture.blogspot.com] 2004-05-06 12:11:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 [rant]
If these recommendations are followed, will everyone STFU about it? Since this has been public since January, sans photos - they are all that's actually "new", it is particularly odd / silly / disingenuous / asinine / fucking stupid to hear the parade of Congressmen and Senators who say that they knew nothing of it. Jerkoffs. The lot of them are ambulance-chasing twits - as transparent as Al Jizz. Leave it. As for the Arabs, they seethe because it's phreakin' Tuesday - so FUCK THEM. As for the Izzoids - every single one we can ID, that goes double... with HE, frags, and napalm, preferably.
[/rant]

Thanks for the link - Tacitus gets pretty fluffy sometimes, but he's taken this issue to the woodshed and nailed down an action plan. I'm for it.

Posted by .com 2004-05-06 12:13:54 PM|| 2004-05-06 12:13:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Tacitus is wrong on this one.

When something extreme happens, there's a natural tendency to go to the opposite extreme in response. But that doesn't fix the situation.

What is needed here is patient and relentless uncovering of the facts ... all of the facts, including who knew what when.

Then, methodical punishment in proportion to the offense.

Just for starters, it would help if people got facts and insights right. A US reserve MP unit doesn't have the identity and tradition of a regiment founded on the British model, and dissolving it won't have the psychological impact wanted -- at least it won't have all that much of an impact on soldiers who might not identify with it much.

I understand the emotional desire to strike out and wipe out any blot on us.

Not gonna work. Steady, disciplined investigation followed by appropriate punishment is the way to go.

Posted by Thinking this through amid uniformed troops all around me 2004-05-06 12:20:13 PM|| 2004-05-06 12:20:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 I'm all for punishing the individiuals involved, including superior officers, according to current USCMJ and other relevant law, BUT

Drastic measures like Tacitus proposes are overkill, because this would mean nothing to the folks around the world currently (gleefully) frothing over this.

Posted by Carl in N.H 2004-05-06 12:28:54 PM|| 2004-05-06 12:28:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 I don't think this is necessary, but I agree it would send the appropriate message. This debacle forced the President of the US to go on arab television to denounce the actions of some service members as abhorrent. In other words, this was an incredible f-up, and heads deserve to roll. I'm encouraged by the response by Bush so far, and am steamed by the reaction of (most of) the press and democrat legislators trying to politicize the situation. Also, I think McCain has not handled it well (surprisingly). He seems to think the main problem is that Rumsfeld did not inform congress earlier. That may be a problem, but I think McCain is missing the larger point a bit, and twisting the facts a bit (Congress knew, they just hadn't seen the pictures).

Posted by sludj 2004-05-06 12:31:34 PM|| 2004-05-06 12:31:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Letter of reprimand for some, Article 15 for others and releif of command to others. Not for what they did. I think what they did was called for, those fuck!#& murdering scum would have slit the throats of the guards if things were opposite, but for getting caught on film and letting that film get out. Thats a deriliction of duty. This is a hot war and people are in it up to their eyeballs.

But the enemy could care less what we do. We are not the shinning light of the world. We are us. And I'd rather be us, warts and all, than be anything else. I want to win this war.

Also, Who took the photos! How did they get out! This is a national security question morphing to a Mi Lie massacre. The nation needs to know who leaked this and that person needs to be prosecuted and after 20 years as somebodies butt buddy deported to France. They have good food there.

Posted by Lucky 2004-05-06 12:40:50 PM|| 2004-05-06 12:40:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 [Troll droppings deleted]

Posted by Man Bites Dog TROLL 2004-05-06 1:56:05 PM|| 2004-05-06 1:56:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 [Troll droppings deleted]

Posted by Man Bites Dog TROLL 2004-05-06 1:56:05 PM|| 2004-05-06 1:56:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 I agree with Tacitus.

There are two problems here.

The first is the actions or lack of actions of the individuals involved. They should be dealt with through the proscribed means of the UCMJ. They are also stupid. Photographing these events and releasing the photographs is at a minimum just plain dumb and indicates an incredible lack of judgement, if it is not treasonous. They all should get whatever non-judical response is indicated for stupidity.

The second problem is, frankly, PR. The military has won a brilliant military victory that needs to be turned into a political success as well. A political success both domesticly and internationally. For better or worse, political success involves changing people's minds. This is not the way to change people's minds in the direction we wish.

If we are not to be a shining light for the world, then is our only reason for invading Iraq possession of the power to do so? I hope not. We are still the last best hope for mankind. Whether exactly the steps Tacitus prescribes are the correct ones is subject to debate. But that something of the magnitude he proposes should be done, and promptly, is necessary for the military and political effort we have undertaken.

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-05-06 2:03:47 PM|| 2004-05-06 2:03:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 With all due respect to Tacitus, whose blog I like, I am satisfied as a tax-paying citizen, that everything that needs to be done about this is already being done.
This was already going through the proper channels when the Partisan Mediaâ¢ and their Leftist Democrat masters decided that it was a "story" because they had lurid pictures and thought they had the "My Lai massacre" for their new Vietnam.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-06 2:17:52 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-06 2:17:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 To Man Bites Dog: Do you really believe the bullshit you write or are you just trying to yank everyone's chain? Give me some examples of President Bush's pathological lies. Right off hand I can't think of any.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2004-05-06 2:19:23 PM|| 2004-05-06 2:19:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 United States or military courts could, I would think, certainly discover appropriate jurisdiction over the relevant civilian personnel and proceed accordingly (should they reject it, the clarifying option of Iraqi jurisdiction might be offered).

Unfortunately, the civilians, in legal jeopardy, could agree to a military solution until they got back here in the US, withdraw their agreement, hire an ACLU attorney to go judge-shopping, and that would be that. They would compplain coersion, and some judge would probably agree.

However, any of the military not in Leavenworth, or dishonorably discharged, or both might be finishing their terms of service in Northwest Alaska. A chilling effect of future behavior such as this.

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-06 2:20:35 PM|| 2004-05-06 2:20:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 IMO, the history of past posting shows that Man Bites Dog is a fake -- he pretends to be a gung ho, pro-military, âknock down the bad guysâ kind of guy -- and then proceeds to dump all over the Bush administration, essentially calling them all criminals without any proof to back up the slander. Man Bites Dog, just because you sound pro-military doesnât mean youâre not just a DU operative (or equivalent) out to slam Bush. Itâs not like you ever offer alternative, realistic solutions, do you?

Posted by cingold 2004-05-06 2:21:50 PM|| 2004-05-06 2:21:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Man Bites Dog Dong - man your out there -- ok we got it you do not like Bush..plus from your posts you wouldn't like skerry...your posts are extreme...just who do you want for president?
and just what did Bush lie about? if your answer is WMD you trully do not understand what is going on and the american war on terror.

Posted by Dan 2004-05-06 2:22:00 PM|| 2004-05-06 2:22:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Folks, if you've bothered following the news, the civilians involved have been referred to the DOJ for investigation and prosecution.

Personally, I think Tacitus needs a pack of Depends. We were doing the right thing about this long before the damned press turned it into their lead story, and we're still doing the right thing. Going overboard will do more harm than good.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-06 2:27:13 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-05-06 2:27:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 This just came over my e-mail from CNN. "President Bush says he's sorry for the humiliation suffered by Iraqi prisoners at the hands of U. S. troops." I read the transcropt of his interview with Al Aribaya but I can't see where he says "I'm sorry". What he did say is that the investigation is continuing and if wrong-doing is found the perpetrators will be brought to justice.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2004-05-06 2:30:23 PM|| 2004-05-06 2:30:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 "Refuses to admit that GWB is a pathological liar, crook and Saudi puppet, who has never earned an honest dollar in his spoiled rich kid life. "
Let's see your voluminous proof of these allegations because let's face it, you don't have any.
And about earning money, I know he earned what he put into the Texas Rangers, because he took a losing, second-rate team and turned them into a successful ball club and got a new stadium built for them in Arlington.
(Before that, he lost a lot of money in the oil bidness trying to drill in West Texas.)
I know FOR A FACT that he earned his keep as my Governor here in Texas.
And I know FOR A FACT that he's one of the hardest working, busiest Presidents I've ever seen who's accomplished much, so he's earned that money, too.
Even when he's supposedly "on vacation" in Crawford, he has very little leisure and lots of "working" vacation.
MBD, bite me.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-06 2:30:50 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-06 2:30:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Deacon, he said it in a statement to "King" Abdullah of Jordan today.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-06 2:42:05 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-06 2:42:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 My thoughts on this thread. Tacitus is dead wrong -- what he proposes would be a massive PR defeat. Showing a willingness to deal out injustice to our own for appeasement's sake would have terrible effect.

Posted by someone 2004-05-06 2:43:08 PM|| 2004-05-06 2:43:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Troll: human doormat, who swallows spin like bees gather honey. Refuses to admit that Kerry is a pathological liar, crook and Saudi puppet*, who has never earned an honest dollar in his spoiled rich kid life.

* Kerry's calling for a UN (meaning an Arab League - i.e. Saudi) role in Iraq. Who's the Saudi puppet, now? Note that many of Kerry's supporters, including the State Department people who criticized Bush, are on the Saudi payroll via their thinktanks.

You might say that Bush is a Zionist puppet, but that doesn't work either, since 80% of Jews vote Democratic and the major figures funding non-profits like moveon.org are Jewish, including the billionaires Soros and Lewis.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-05-06 3:12:12 PM|| 2004-05-06 3:12:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Let the UCMJ take it's course, leave the damn unit alone. Fire the CC, Senior E-9 and 1st Sgt, and press on with fixing the problem.

Posted by geezer 2004-05-06 5:55:33 PM|| 2004-05-06 5:55:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Large parts of the Arab world are probably laughing their arses off at the stupidity of the Americans working themselves into a frenzy over some fairly minor incidents that under all Arab regimes would get the perps fired for dereliction of duty, i.e. for being far too soft on the prisoners.

Posted by Phil_B 2004-05-06 6:32:07 PM|| 2004-05-06 6:32:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 I would really like to know how the media got ahold of those photos. Why has nothing been said about this.

Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-05-06 7:11:50 PM|| 2004-05-06 7:11:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 President Bush is a gentleman, and quintessential statesman. The âArab Streetâ quite clearly realized his comments in the Arab TV interview were an apology -- even if that point was missed by the Dimmy wits. Their reaction (missed by American media?) is telling, as reported by IRAQ THE MODEL blogspot. An excerpt:

here we have the president of the greatest nation on earth apologizes for what a small group of pervert soldiers did. And here, the American press proves that it's free to show the truth. We lived with similar pictures for years until they became the basics of every prison's daily life and we never heard an Arabic paper point them out. These are lessons from the western culture entering the hearts of Arabs, whether the Arab leaders liked or not".

They âget it,â even if the Dimmy wits do not.

Posted by cingold 2004-05-06 7:23:18 PM|| 2004-05-06 7:23:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Strategypage has a good piece on this issue.

The Arab media made much of the brutality of American interrogators, but said little about Saddamâs decades of interrogations in the Arab style. Apparently if Arabs are brutal to Arabs, it isnât news. But if non-Arabs do it, itâs a war crime, or worse.

Posted by Phil_B 2004-05-06 7:46:04 PM|| 2004-05-06 7:46:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 What the f*ck are we talking about this for? The commander was relieved, troops were disciplined.

Game over. The DoD has done the maximum it should have done. Nothing more needs doing. The integrity of command has been reestablished.

The prisoners? Sucks to be them.

Posted by badanov 2004-05-06 8:30:21 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-05-06 8:30:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 I'm with RC/Badanov/Phil B on this one. Listened to 4 different Arab journalists on this one today and they pretty much said what I've felt all along. They can't quite understand the U.S. media frenzy & didn't expect an apology from Bush (even though are media again made a big deal about him technically not saying sorry). The Arabs did appreciate his explanation overall even if it was confusing to most that the most powerful man in the world was answering the mail on a few derelicts.

The big losers in all of this are the Arab regimes who have condoned torture on their own folks for decades - this sets a new precedent and has too make them take notice - as their citizens certainly have. Most of the Arabs who are pissed are basically the same ones who don't like us anyhow according to the men I heard today.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-05-06 10:21:43 PM|| 2004-05-06 10:21:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Man Bites Dog TROLL 2004-05-06 1:56:05 PM|| 2004-05-06 1:56:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Man Bites Dog TROLL 2004-05-06 1:56:05 PM|| 2004-05-06 1:56:05 PM|| Front Page Top